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Transcript

Don't Make Me Live It Twice · Made, Not Found

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: Terrified because someone was breaking in the house, getting on the phone with the police and them saying you have to go downstairs.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking in my head, like, I'm 14.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because I essentially had no known trauma in my childhood.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: However, it came from a family of warriors and people who were just nervous, I think, about potential things happening.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you lived through some serious trauma, and yet I would say that I had a lot of fear instilled in me, and you grew up fearless.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of looked back and saw a white van in the parking lot and this guy standing outside of it, and it just felt a little weird.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: What stands out most to me and still bothers me to this day is fear made me freeze.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Made Not Found.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: We believe the best lives aren't found.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're built.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: One real conversation at a time.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hi.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we were talking this week a bit about what we weren't really talking about.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like kind of the current state of the world was on my mind, and there's all kinds of things.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: I won't go into all the specifics, but like that are really creating fear.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it made me start to think about like our lives and and how does fear show up and how do we handle it?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the question for for this week.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: So many directions we could go there.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: I feel um like fear has played such a huge role in my life.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Starting from when I was young, which maybe is the place to start.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: But it's interesting how, you know, what we learn when we're young without even realize we're learning it.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so looking back, I realized that unintentionally my mother was very afraid of small things in my mind, maybe big things in her mind.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: But like when I was little, she always had a very sensitive stomach.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: So she always had to know where the bathroom was, anywhere we went.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that anxiety that she had lived inside of me as a young girl and tends to show up in my life even to this day.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, driving.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: We would drive from, you know, northeastern, like Young Sun area, Ohio, to Cleveland to see my dad's family.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember like she was so nervous driving, like we'd be like, like this, and yelling at my dad.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: She probably wasn't even yelling, but in my l my young ears it felt like she was yelling, and my dad would get mad.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like she always thought we were gonna die in any given second.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I remember thinking then, you know, that I didn't want to show up like that, but also just how much I could feel her fear.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it wasn't just her, I think my my her sister and my aunt I spent a lot of time with who also had similar bathroom issues, so that was like an ongoing thing.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um which I've experienced in my own life, which is not something you want to talk about, but it's true.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: But so I don't know.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I have grown up somewhat afraid of everything.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: And as I got older, consciously decided that I wasn't going to stop living because of it.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it is something that I deal with maybe not on a daily basis, but maybe as a mom of three, that there's some level of career fear that creeps into my daily life.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I well, I think it's interesting hearing your background and and growing up with fear because I think mine is almost the exact opposite.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's shocking.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I grew up completely fear.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's not fair.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: When I was young, I was a mama's boy, and I think I was afraid of everything.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know what switched, but there are moments in my mind that I think that removed fear, and some of them were overcoming fear.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, it was physical fear, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as a young boy, like, I'm gonna get in a fight and it's gonna hurt to get punched.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then I get in a fight and I get punched, and then it's like that's all that was.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm not afraid of that anymore.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: Physical fear is such an interesting thing because that's not something I've ever thought about.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of it's fear of physical pain.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think, I think that's how I was thinking about it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, another story that comes to my mind is like when when I was maybe 14, my parents were my mom and my stepdad were divorced, and it was me, my mom, and my brother who was 12 years younger than me in the house.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember my mom waking me up terrified because someone was breaking in the house.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and I jumped up and jumped into action and was clearly afraid, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I was the man of the house, and I had to step up.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, I remember getting on the the phone with the police and them saying, You have to go downstairs.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking in my head, like, I'm 14.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Police told you at 14 years old to go downstairs.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we heard I I don't know if you knew the whole story, but we heard this banging.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: So my mom wakes me up, I'm terrified, she's terrified.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: I hear the kick, like somebody's kicking in the door.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: It goes quiet, and then I hear glass break.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I grab, you know, the only things that were around, which were a bat, which is why I still have a bat in our closet to this day, and a hammer, because there was some construction in our house, and I'm at the top of the stairs and I'm screaming down in my manliest 14-year-old voice.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And think about we now have a 14-year-old, right?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm screaming out of fear, but trying to impose fear on somebody else.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then my mom sees the person walk out through the window, but I'm on the phone with the cops because she'd called them and they said, Well, you have to go down and look and see if anyone's there.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, in that context, there was there was some really big fear that I essentially overcame.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I overcame it, but I experienced.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: So then by comparison, there wasn't really that much that was scary.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, do you think that incident made you less fearful in the years after that?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think to this day, when something wakes me up, I pop up right right out of bed, and that probably still kicks in.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know that it made me less fearful.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it just maybe made my fear fear level different.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: My my tolerance, I think, maybe.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: But but that's not really the same as what I think about fear now, because when I think about fear, I think more about what's operating in the background that I almost don't even know is fear-driven.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there are there are times I can identify it coming up, which we'll get to, but but I think my my background was interesting.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's also another thing that I think played into my approach to fear, which was when my grandma, um, my dad's mom, my grandma Hunter, was alive and I was young, she had this near-death experience, and um she went through the tunnel and saw a face and said it was my dad's.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: This was before I was born, and came back.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And she spoke about this at Youngstown State at the college.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I was born, she told my dad, that wasn't your face.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: I saw that was Christopher's.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, knowing that story, I she had passed on at this point, but I always felt I always knew I was protected and guided.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was a there was a removal of a level of fear for a phase of my life that is unexplainable.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I but I never and in all my circumstances never had a fear that it was not gonna work out.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So interesting because I essentially had no known trauma in my childhood.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: However, came from a family of warriors and people who were just nervous, I think, about potential things happening.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And you lived through some serious trauma, and yet I would say that I had a lot of fear instilled in me, and you grew up fearless.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how crazy is that?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's also we crossed paths early in life, yeah, relatively, right?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: We were in college, and when we met each other, and then when we started dating, and I think of a lot of those times now in retrospect as very fearless for myself, but I didn't think about them at the time.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I remember I had transferred to three different colleges, many of them from different circumstances, which we we don't have to go into, but um, and landing at Ohio State and living with a bunch of guys from Youngstown, none of which were going to college at the time, joining a fraternity, and which was very odd for my friend group.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's like this image of frat boys, and but I wasn't fearful of like rejection from them.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I joined the fraternity, was not fearful of like the opinions of the older guys in the house.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I started throwing events where I would rent out halls for thousands of dollars and and host events, and I remember other people being baffled by that, but for me it was like it was not there wasn't much thought behind it, and I don't know if I was operating emotionally unattached, uh unattached or how, but I feel like other people had fear that I didn't recognize, and then and I want to hear your perspective of that, but and also your story coming into college.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what was interesting to me is later in life it changed.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so all the things you listed in college are 100% true, and I would have like so much, I would be so nervous if I was throwing a party and had to have a thousand people there, and you don't know if anyone's gonna show up, or I would feel like that, and I would be scared.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: However, when you were telling me those examples, I'm thinking the thing that would be the most fearful if I put myself into your shoes is that you were at one point selling drugs and you were moving a considerable amount of drugs where they would put you in jail.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, were you not fearful during those times?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always, which is also interesting when you think about the background.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about last episode about my family's history with drugs, but I um it was specifically around MDMA, and I had read up and and had my own experiences with MDMA that I felt were life-changing in a positive way, and I saw an opportunity, uh, you know, and it's a very I I came to find out later it's a very common thing.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I won't say uh, I guess I shouldn't say common, but I've heard the story a lot of entrepreneurs in their younger days selling drugs because it was an entrepreneurial venture.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in a closed environment, a college campus, um not individually selling, you know, pills, but actually supplying in large quantities to people that did that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And my biggest fear was not actually jail, it was my my mom's grandma, my grandma finding out because my fear was that I was known as the good one in the family, the one that got good grades, the one that went to college, the one that all these things, and that would be, especially in light of my mom's addiction, that would be like shattering to her and maybe all of my family's image of me.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I can't 100% relate to that.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like as a little girl, I was taught very much to be kind and nice and and to behave a certain way, to be a good girl and to be pretty.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like those were that was my purpose.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: And to not behave well was like the ultimate fear because you're disappointing the people that love you.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's interesting because I've reflected on this for years now, and it's like really that comes down to like a fear that I'm not good enough, that you won't love me as I am, that I have to behave a certain way to earn your love.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that I still it still rears its head in my life, and I feel like we've done a considerable amount of work on myself.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that part of it I can understand, but that's wild that like you're not you're more afraid of your grandma's being upset than jail time or something, which is crazy.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I think one thought that is that captures a lot of that is I remember thinking to myself at one point when I was, you know, there was a hunger, there was a genuine hunger there to succeed, where where you know we were lower middle class, and it wasn't like money was readily available and my mom was struggling with addiction.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: There were a lot of things that um it felt like money could at least make easier.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I was very driven to make sure that happened.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember at one point thinking, well, if I have to do a year in jail for something I do, but I get to keep the money and it's like millions of dollars, would I do it?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: And my answer was immediately yes.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's good and bad around that, right?
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it definitely expressed itself in negative ways and and that I showed up, but that was more of my fear than that that was probably the root of the fears that I would not succeed.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so my fear of the of the way my grandma or my family saw me was superior to my fear of jail, but maybe the greatest fear of all was not succeeding, and my definition of succeeding at that point was financially.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Which is so interesting because you said there was a point in time that you were fearless, and at and you now would not say you're fearless, and yet now you have, by other people's definition, succeeded, if you will, right?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: You're financially stable or whatnot.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a whole nother topic.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: But so that's that's so interesting, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I think um fear has actually it's been the opposite of what you in that context would expect, or maybe others would expect.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's um as I've had more, whether that's money, success, family, you know, kids, uh fear has gotten worse.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you can relate to that, if that resonates with you, or if you felt like fear was more prevalent for you at a younger age.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think that fear I think that giving me life experiences where I have been able to face my fears and get through it stronger has made me less fearful.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I have more faith now, and so I have uh less fear because I'm able to put more of my fears in God's hands.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: However, being a mother comes with a whole nother host of fears.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not about me anymore.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like these these people that you love so dearly, and like those that's still, I mean, I still live with fear, don't get me wrong, but I think that it doesn't have the same hold on me as it used to.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that I used to be paralyzed by fear, and I think that I probably married you because you're like uh such an adventurous guy, and you're always taking us somewhere, and we're always doing something that would be scary to me, you know?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we're in Puerto Rico and you just decide we're just gonna get out and start walking, and we're like I have flip-flops on, I think.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: We had one bottle of water between the two of us, and you're like, we're just gonna see what happens, you know?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like three hours later, we're like in the clouds, and I'm like, we don't have cell phone reception, we have no water, my feet are blistering.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, okay, we just figure it out.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: You just figure it out.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you have always just shown me that we just figure things out, and so I think I have become less fearful through moving through life with all of those scenarios to be like, I can do this, as opposed to when I was young.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was somewhat sheltered, and I didn't have any of those experiences.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have any confidence in myself to be like I can figure this out.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So everything was terrifying.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm glad I could play that role for you.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh I think that's probably grown and changed over time that may have been frustrating to you at the beginning.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: At least I think I remember you being frustrated by some of that approach.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: But for me, there was I think the moment that I can think of where where it changed for me was right after college.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was I was in a place where I wasn't sure where I was going with life.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like college felt so like um expansive.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden it's over.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I found myself like fearful about what do I do next.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I was talking to a trainer this morning, and I I was talking about how he was talking about his schedule not being a normal nine to five.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was remembering right after college, I was bartending, making good money, uh, maybe not a career choice, but it was like buying me some time and thinking, like, man, I I want just a regular nine to five.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then realizing I don't want that, but like this schedules, this schedule feels off because everyone else is working, and what am I supposed to do?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there was just I think I really developed a fear around am I making the right decision?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Am I following the right path?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And and life was up in the air.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: We were broken up at that time, like I was just really, I think, in shambles in many ways, and that's where fear really took over.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it it changed until I was desperate.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: I remember in sh I had moved, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: You had moved, we were both in Chicago living separately.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was completely broke.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: I had ran through all the money I had made doing all the things that you mentioned, um and other things that were legal.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and and other things, but um and you had to write me a check to pay rent.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was like eye-opening for me of oh shit, I better I better get going because the fear now of doing the wrong thing is less than the fear of complete another failure, being a loser.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like I was on the verge of that.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you think that the deep fear was really coming from doing the wrong things?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: You were scared you were gonna make the wrong decision, so therefore you weren't making a decision?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that's actually where a lot of people get stuck.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we've all experienced that to some degree at times in our lives, right?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I have definitely experienced that too.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Just like so uncertain that you just do nothing.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: But life has shown us again and again, you do nothing, and eventually something happens that's out of your control.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So you see that if you don't make the decision, decision's made for you, right?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can actually be worse.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: But that doesn't stop it from happening in the time.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I I think you were actually my perception of you in that time was very different.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: You were very confident in I'm driven, I'm gonna get this job, I'm gonna get this next job, this is what I need to be doing.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And life seemed to be flowing a little better, at least you seem to be more confident in the way it was flowing for you at that time.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you felt that way.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was my perception.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying different, I was different than I am right now today, or you're saying different than how you were at that point in time?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Different than me, and perhaps different than you are today.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just did I know the fear now.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about it, so that's probably part of it, but I also know the fear in you now and what's driving it, or or where showing up.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't see it at that time.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you didn't.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you didn't see me as fearful when we were first dating?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not when we were first dating, when we were in Chicago at first.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, when we were first yeah.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so your career, you had your career, you were moving through it, you I feel like uh your friends were there.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was uh it it seemed very comfortable comfortable for you, and early days of Chicago were not comfortable for me.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes sense.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think what you're referring to now is I have watched you grow multiple businesses, and I chose to be home with our kids for years and years.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I was in sales prior to that and whatnot.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, and so then a couple years ago I decided to start a business, and starting a business is very different than watching someone start a business.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it has been such a humbling experience, but also like you feel fear on a visceral level when it is all in your hands.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's very different than working for someone else, and you know, you have fear of disappointing them and everything, but it's like the weight of all of that when you start a business is on your own shoulders.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had to really like do some serious, you know, soul searching of do I think that I have what it takes to even do this?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And am I enough?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: And can I make this work?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: And where are all these things even coming from?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and like the fear of failure stems from like like not what anyone else thinks of me, but just like I want to contribute to our family and I want to take some of your stress away because you stress about money and supporting us and giving this amazing life, and like to add to that stress is like crippling for me.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that that's what you're probably referring to, right?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's multiple things.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of them.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the many things.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's not only for you, it's for me too.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think um that one is interesting to me.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like that uh the fear of what you're bringing up is the fear of di it either disappointing me or draining our family or adding stress to me?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's not disappointing you.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know you won't be disappointed in me, regardless of what happens.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that as long as I And trying my hardest, you won't be disappointed.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's not disappointment.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like I've seen you at your lowest points when you are, when all of our safety is in your hands.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the reality.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like our house is paid by you, our food is paid for you, the kids' education is you, all of it's on your shoulders.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like, to put one more thing on what feels like a house that's already on your shoulders is could bring me to tears.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and do I create that scenario for you or do you create it yourself?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: I create it myself.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you get past it?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think we all create our own fears, but for the most part.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I guess maybe not in a there's probably situations where people are in abusive relationships or something which is different.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe I shouldn't say that generalization.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: In my life, I'm fairly certain I've created all of my fears.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I get past it?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think, like I said, I think that first of all, I have tools now that I never used to have.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: And second of all, like I have a conscious, I make a conscious decision.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: And yet the drive that I have and the belief in what I'm doing ha outweighs it.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have to realize like, even if I fail and even if I do waste our family's resources and add more stress on your on your shoulders that I don't want to do, not doing it is like failing myself because I am not trying and I can't do that to myself.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm trying to think of there's two different thoughts in my mind right now.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of them is is there was a moment where we as a family had to think about fear, which I think has shaped a lot of a lot of it for us.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll come back to that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think building on what you said, for me, I remember when I left my job to start Fusion.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just you and I.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't like we had all these expenses and and other things.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so there was a little bit different level of pressure, but there was still in my mind fear of failure.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the mental exercises that I did was try to fast forward what would happen if all the negative things happened as I imagined them.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Worst case scenario.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I start the business, I quit my job, I put some money and time into it, I have no salary.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what happens then?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I can't afford to live, so I have to move back to Ohio.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what happens then?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at least someone in my family will let me sleep on their couch and give me dinner and you know, whatever.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and then maybe someone will give me credit for trying, and then I can vote it back.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that that wasn't the only thing, but it was one of the things that empowered me to like move forward, which I thought was great.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I want to, I want to I want to fast forward because I think one of the pivotal moments that I remember with us, and maybe the first time us actually talking about fear together was when the pandemic hit.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: And just like context for everybody else, we were in a situation where we were uh supposed to go to Colorado.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was 2020.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we were supposed to go to Colorado to go skiing with some friends who were already there.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the early days of the pandemic, and there was all this discussion and uncertainty about all these things.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And there was an outbreak at, you know, at one of the hotels.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and so there was this question of like, do we go?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Which was an interesting question for us, but there was also this pressure from our school community about how could you even consider going?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: I was just gonna say that was the biggest thing.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: We had plans to go.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: We were telling people we had plans to go, and people are like, what are you talking about?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's a red zone, you can't go there, you can't take your kids there, like people are dying.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then it was like, whoa.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I remember coming home and being like, I just had all these conversations, and people are like genuinely worried, and my parents, like, you know, and it's like everyone thought we shouldn't go.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and so we talked about, okay, we're gonna have three.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: You pulled me in the room, you're like, we're gonna go talk.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: And we told the kids whatever we told them, or like Well, my mom was living with us, so they sat with her for a sat with her and we went into our room and you said, How do we want to live life?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Which I don't know uh where that came from, but that was the right question, I think, at that moment.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: And ultimately we had to like face a lot of fears.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: What if we go, we were taking the kids and what if this is a a real and really bad thing, and what if we someone gets sick and all these different things, but ultimately we said we don't live our life in fear, and choosing not to live our life in fear, we're choosing not to live our life, and and so we went, and it ended up being amazing.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was a really um eye-opening example for me of like us talking about a very real and fear-driven situation, yeah, and how we were gonna handle it.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've applied that since.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean we don't have fear and we don't get crippled by it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I just I think it's a good foundation for the rest of our discussion.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: No, I 100% agree.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that's the most important thing to realize is like fear, first of all, if fear disappeared, that would probably be dangerous, right?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because you would you would be doing things that potentially would be hazardous, and you know, so you don't want fear to completely go away.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes fear, I'll tell the boys like fear can also just be excitement, right?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like they feel the same very usually in your body.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so I get somewhat fearful anytime I do anything new, and so is it's also just exciting.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: But the point is that I don't think I don't necessarily fear I don't feel less fear than I did when I was younger.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: I just handle it differently than I think when I was younger.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it's easy to talk about like when you felt fear and overcome it, and especially in the past tense, and like it's been great, right?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's also times where maybe there's fear and it's it's good that it was followed.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know, does anything come to mind for you about like really feeling fear and not in as the book says, feeling fear and doing it anyways, but like feeling fear and and that being I mean that's what you're telling the boys, right?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, no a hundred percent.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the one example in my in my head, and I would tend to think it's it's maybe not me listening to fear.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: I see it differently, like I'm listening to my intuition, but but I guess it's the same thing to some degree.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I remember when um it was probably still 2020, but just much later, and there was a family wedding, and our baby was maybe eight months old, and we were planning on going to the wedding, and I was like, I'm not willing to do this.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I'm not willing to travel with him.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: He got sick when he was very little and ended up in the hospital, which was terrifying.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: One of the most terrifying things I think we probably experienced together.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And and so maybe that was out of fear, maybe it was intuition, maybe it doesn't matter, but I chose not to go.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: And uh interestingly, the two younger ones stayed home with us, and you went, even though you were kind of not feeling great the day before, and I was like, Are you sure you should go?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: You still went and took our tired.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, and you took our oldest son, and you can tell the story now.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I went to Mexico and was with all of our family, and or all of my family, my side.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the first night I I started to notice that something was wrong.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, unfortunately, I sweat a lot anyway, so that wasn't that out of the ordinary.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: But we were walking to the rehearsal dinner and I was just pouring sweat to the point where somebody said, like, do you want me to give you uh an extra shirt?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And when I went up to the room, I knew something was wrong.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And our oldest stayed with my mom was there and the rest of our family, and he came up that night, and we knew we had to get tested before we came back home to be allowed back in.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is during the pandemic, and he was really worried and said, Can we can you get tested early?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did, and I tested positive.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember calling you, and uh, I think that was probably a feel fearful moment for you.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Terrifying because I'm like, I'm like, okay, my first thought was just like, just get home.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care how you get home, but you have to get home safely with our son.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what I was most terrified is is like, what if you forge documents and you're in Mexico and the Mexican police take you?
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where is our son at that point?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't even matter if it's even irrational.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just, you know, like our our my baby was with you.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I obviously wanted you to be safe too, but I was you would survive in Mexican jail.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: You might come back wounded and scarred, but yeah, you would survive.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: But but yeah, like deep, deep rooted fear.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like actually a good example because in those moments, like there's nothing I could do.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had no control over the situation, I couldn't do anything.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we talked about what you were gonna do, but like really in those moments there's just nothing except for praying.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that I find myself praying in those moments where you're just terrified and there's nothing that you can actually do.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you're all the tools you have don't mean anything.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you you told me just get back.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so that prompted me by any means necessary in my mind.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was gonna forge documents and get back in.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that question came up from my family and from you what happens if and and then what I ended up finding out, which was crazy considering the whole situation, is luckily we lived in San Diego at that time.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I could fly to Tijuana and literally just walk across the border, and I did thank God through the airport.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't it was a very simple you know process, and I took an Uber home, and that was that.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, for me, when I think of that same question of what when did I feel fear?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was right, was after we moved here to to Florida, um, we went back and we saw our neighbors and uh we went to a park for one of their birthdays.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I still have a pit in my stomach when I think about this.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: We went back to California.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: We went back to California, we went to a park for their birthday.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: The boys were all with us, and they were mad at me for something, of course, I don't know what it was, on the drive there.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when we got to the park, the older two said, We're not going, we're staying here.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Fine, whatever, because you know how I parent them and let them get what they want, and then we'll see.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we got out of the car and we walked away.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: You and I and our baby, and our baby, and and I kind of looked back and saw a white van in the parking lot and this guy standing outside of it, and it just felt a little weird, and um, that might be intuition, like you were saying, but I just stayed above right next to the hedge and watched, and that guy got in his van and pulled over next to the boys, next to our car, and got out, and I marched over and and opened the door and said to the boys, get out now, and we walked away.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: The the it's scary in general, and I think the fear was right, and I think maybe the intuition was right there.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: But what stands out most to me and still bothers me to this day is fear made me freeze, not in the way that you're thinking, I went and got the boys.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: What bothers me the most is I didn't do what I would do if fear hadn't made me freeze.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: I would have confronted the guy, I would have called the cops, and the thing that bothers me to this day is what if that guy stayed in that park and and did that to somebody else and they had walked away?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Totally.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like I I feel it saying that right now, and fear can make you do things, can make you act different.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: That one was out of the ordinary for me.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: I would be very, I'm very protective, as you know, very I'm not afraid of confrontation.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: But that moment in that level of fear around our kids had me freeze.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's that's where it gets so tricky as parents that like bad things happen and it's our job to protect them, and it's that's where it gets really like murky of how how do you choose not to live in fear and still always be protecting your kids.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so bothered by that event because my intuition did not speak to me.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see the van, I didn't see him pull up.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like our oldest son knew it was weird in the car.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: He he saw that guy, he sa he saw.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: After the fact, he said he knew.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: He said he knew, and and I was so upset that I didn't feel anything and so grateful that you did.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that's where it's like that's where it gets so hard, I think, as a parent, because you don't want to had we taken our kids skiing and one of them got so sick they're in the hospital or something, like it would probably have shaped the rest of our lives very differently.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what is I I think when you think about that though, fear having an impact, and as it relates to kids, like it's it's ongoing, I think, all the time.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's honestly one of the things that like I feel is most important for us to get in check because that's where the negative effects of parents like helicopter parents and all these things come into play.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: They have we're raising them, we talk about this, we're raising them to be independent children that leave us in a way and go out into the world um you know with the proper foundation, hopefully, if we're successful.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really important for us to have that in check, which I think is practice for us, but but I'm still curious about this idea of like fear causing you to show up in a different way, whether that means like in anger or uh shut off or paralyzed.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: Can you think of anything now that fear is still showing up for you and causing you to be different or show up different?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the thing that comes to mind most is you have always been a very strong personality, and your words are just strong, and you're you're very masculine, and the way you hold yourself and the way you speak is very strong.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so there have been so many times, and and also so loving and kind, and you know, I don't want to paint you as something that you're not.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: However, so many times our relationship, I would just not say something out of fear of you being harsh or speaking to me harsh, and and and I remember when you first had a coach and he told you about yourself.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it was so helpful for me because he was basically the first one who was like, You are a wrecking ball.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: He's he said, You have an atomic bomb in your pocket, but the the real power is not pulling it out.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so helpful for me because I was like, for all these years I kept thinking, like, why am I showing up weak?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not weak, I know I'm not weak, and I would feel weak in those moments.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when our oldest son challenged me once time, and he was like, You're afraid to to to stand up to dad.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna cry still because I was like, You're right.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And and it still shows up sometimes, but I remember like when my mom got diagnosed with terminal cancer, and I was like devastated and going through all these emotions and all of these things, but I also realized I was like, there is an emotional component to eating, there is an emotional component to having cancer, and part of that is eating your emotions and not being able to voice them.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember telling you, like, I am really going to show up differently.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I kind of was warning you just as like I need to be able to speak what I'm feeling, and you were like amazing.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think the most ironic thing about that is I I know now, by the way, that uh how powerful my words are and my energy and all of that.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you didn't know for years.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know for for most of the years.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I did know that what was most appealing to me was you standing up for yourself.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: I would always tell you, Jay, punch me in the shoulder, or tell me to get the F out, or whatever.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: And you you rightfully would say, Well, you'll you'll lash back.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I would, yeah, probably until a moment where I realized you were standing up for yourself, and then I wouldn't.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And none of that was like malicious or intentional.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: But understanding myself better now, I I think it's ironic that you the thing that you were afraid to do is actually the biggest like attractant to me.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean it makes sense.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and honestly, it's been five years since I had that conversation with you, and there will still be times where I want to say something and I will then not say it.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it happens way less than it used to, but it happens, and and I think I'm so thankful that God gave us three boys for so many different reasons.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: But one of them is because sometimes I'm brave just because of them, because I'm like, that's not I don't know what a model to them.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I see them as so such brave beings in so many things and the way that they travel and move through life and move schools, and and so it challenges me to be more brave, but and yeah, it still shows up.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's still something that I have to talk myself into sometimes.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know that it's ever not gonna show up.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, um we started earlier talking about like how I had essentially was fearless, which I don't think I ever was.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I just didn't recognize any fear um to how that's very different for me now.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: And you can attest to this.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there are multiple things I could list, you know, multiple handfuls that would that I am fearful of that can grip me and paralyze me at times, um, whether it's you know the company running out of money before it was profitable, or whether it's paying for our house or running out of money on our own.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And some of these are rational, realistic fears, and some of them are not.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I don't think that I don't know how.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a way to get rid of fear, I don't know how, and I don't know if that's even the goal.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what's somewhat concerning, I guess, to me, is that it's it only seems like more fear gets created the more we live and grow.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think the goal is to get rid of fear.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think that in life, as humans, like contrast is so important.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can never really appreciate the good unless you go through some bad.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it just is reality, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and so we need contrast to fully experience our world.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that the goal is simply to I mean, for me personally, I think my goal is to shield myself from fears that I don't need to take on.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I haven't watched the news for God knows how long, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know I'm a sensitive soul, so I just I try to kind of create a bubble somewhat around my life so that I don't have to put unnecessary fears of things I can't control anyway.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then the rest of the time, it's just processing, right?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like you and I have a lot of conversations around things that I'm scared of, and it's just processing and understanding like what am I really afraid of and can I move through it?
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you know, doing this is scary.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like we've already said things that will make my aunts judge me and talk about me, not just my aunts, friends, people, you know, so many people, and there I can just already hear like all of the things like how, why, why would they go on here and talk about their sex life and their drugs and like who are they and like all of these things, and and so I feel the fear, but I just am still choosing to show up here.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because I believe in it, because I think that there is strength again.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there is strength in showing up fully as a as an imperfect human.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that to some degree, it probably goes back to like my younger self feeling like I had to be a certain way to earn love.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: And and that is not a full human experience.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that there's so much strength and so much to be gained by other people to be like this is me, and and it is so imperfect and it's a really messy road.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you can judge me if you want, because I judge myself, but that's not what I'm here I'm here for.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm here to allow you to have these conversations in your house and be honest with with other people and to feel like you are worthy of love despite all of your mess.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that is bigger.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a good reason to to do this, but to do a lot of things.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: To do everything.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the same thing, right?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like my business.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, it's scary, or like you know, honestly, uh life, like being an entrepreneur, like you have to be a certain personality to some degree to be able to, like it's risky, right?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many times where that we've been saying for years, like eventually something's gonna sell.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna see the you know the fruit of all your hard work, but that has not happened.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you gamble, like you we've put in a lot of money into companies, and it's a gamble, and like you don't know.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it gonna work out?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it not gonna work out?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: We still don't know.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have those answers.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it's in you to do these things, and so it has to be worth it, right?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: The not doing and the sheltering and the shrinking is not worth uh having a fearless life.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great way to put it.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think um that's actually a very important discovery, I think, for us.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've we've observed people that have shrunk their lives to remove uh uncomfortableness, I'll call it fear, but showing up in the form of uncomfortableness or what-ifs or all these risks.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and my observation is that all of those people still have all the fear just about much smaller things.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: 100% agree.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not about um are we gonna have a massive failure or success in a company, or are we going to have the most amazing experience on a trip to Africa or or not, because it's very unknown.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's about is my is the right meal gonna show up that I ordered or not?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's fear around something like that.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a bathroom?
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is there a bathroom?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or can I drive on the highway, or you know, is it safe to travel to wherever, the next state over, you know?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and when when I don't think I thought about that until now, but when I think about that, it's it's really empowering to know the fear is gonna be there anyways.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you can choose to live whichever life you want, you're gonna have the same fear.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: So You're gonna have fears regardless.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: They might not be the same as ours, but you're going to experience fear.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna experience fear, but they're gonna be about things that are big or or things that are in other people's opinions maybe not big.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: But every fear you experience is gonna be big, no matter what the what level of life you're playing on.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Which is an interesting, interesting reality for me as we try to think about how to have our kids think about and address fear.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that you know, through doing life, that's what you gain, right?
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I think our middle son didn't want to go to Africa, and I think he didn't want to go to Africa, not he didn't tell us this at all, but I think it was just so unknown that there was some level of fear.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and we went anyway.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_01: He went anyway, and he loved it.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: And and we did a lot of things that would make people very uncomfortable, right?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like just being out there in nature with lions next to you and and these open-air cars, open-air cars, and there's rhinoceroses who have charged cars anymore.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Or those are very obvious ones, but I think there's one that stands out in my mind for you specifically.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um overcoming a fear.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it was like day two, I think, in Africa, and they're like, one of the best ways to see the um the game is on a horse.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, great, let's go on a horse.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was you and I and a bunch of kids, and thankfully there was enough tribesmen where they had most of the kids' horses by the way.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them, but not all of them.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: And riding along, and granted, I let my horse do whatever it wanted, which in retrospect was a really bad idea.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: Looking back, I think maybe I should have shown it that I was in control, and maybe I would have had a different experience.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: But regardless, we're going along, and my horse is in the back, because of course he's like eating grass, and you were right there, and there was an ostrich ahead, and um, and the horses got spooked.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of the horses got spooked.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: My got spooked right away.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Started to turn around.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: I got him back, and at that point I just thought we were fine, and apparently the ostrich flared himself up, made himself big.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't see it.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: All I know is that my horse turned abruptly.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think it reared.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: It happened so fast, but what I do know is I fell off the horse and the horse took off running.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I was shaken.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: You were pale, you were really white when you stood up.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember like at first, like, I don't even know, kind of came to.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, am I okay?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: And like I was hurt.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: I knew it was hurt, but I knew it was like okay.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I stand up, and my whole back is a bloody mess, and Ash or our youngest son is somewhat freaking out.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: He wants off his horse, and I'm like telling him, I'm fine, you're fine.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the horse comes back, my horse comes back after taking a very fast run around.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the tribeman said, get back on the horse.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the last thing I wanted to do.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: I did not want to get back on the horse.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like my body was still rattled, I was bleeding all over.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: I played through my shirt.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thought for a second.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, my kids are watching me, like, get back on the horse.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I got back on the horse.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's like those moments, right?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like you you you do them, but not because you're not afraid.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I was still afraid.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: I just chose in that moment to do it anyway.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, overcoming it.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when when you think about that situation, I think it's a great example for our kids.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: About um, look, sometimes the fear is legit.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: Riding a horse in a foreign country, you're not you're not that experienced at riding horses, there was no one guiding you.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a little bit afraid at the beginning.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the worst, not the worst, but a bad situation happened, and then you were able to still kind of get up and and overcome it.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because had you not, that fear may have just grown, you may have never ridden a horse again.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: But but bringing it to the present moment, because I think this is something worth discussing, when you now think about your biggest fear, or what is a fear right now that might even be operating in the background that you just be because you can't even face it.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my biggest fear by far would be one of our children dying, losing you, or passing away, but only because I would want I want to mother our children.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not about me in that scenario.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you'll miss me, but you I think you'll be okay too.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it would be so tragic, I think, for me not to be able to raise our boys.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: But losing them trumps both of those.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is like my worst nightmare that I pray I will never have to deal with.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think likewise, and probably anybody who has children would say the same thing, but for me it's say think of it a little different when I thought about that question, and it was really uh my fears being the one remaining.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because dying is scary and it's not something I want to do.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: But whether it's through faith or psychedelic experiences they've had or whatever, I'm not overly afraid of that.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure at the moment when it happens to be a good thing.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: No, I agree with you.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: But thinking about being here and the pain that you're left with if one of those things happen is is a huge fear that I don't even know how to address.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it doesn't maybe it's one of the ones that you don't address, or you just have to move through if if and when it happens.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: But um if that were living in the forefront, that could be paralyzing to life.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's an interesting thing you brought up though, because I think that so much of the time, it's so easy to get so wrapped and so deep in fear of something that is not an actual threat right now.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so to me, there's like I know that that's the biggest fear, but there's no real good to come from going down that very deep hole.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe, you know, talking about if I were past or you were past, like maybe we could exchange things that might be helpful, like I would want you to be happy and I would, I don't know, show up as butterflies and rainbows, and you would know I was with you and all of us.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that I'm going to a better place and like all those things, right?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that there's certain times where there's just deep fears that just just no good to come from of even allowing yourself to go down that road.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that like, I don't know, the ability to pull yourself from those thoughts to me is like a practice, and you get better at it.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think back in my 20s, I was just go down these terrible rabbit holes and I couldn't even get myself out of them.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that I've gotten better, maybe because of meditation or I don't know, but at knowing that there's nothing good that lies on the other side of this thought that is going to just take me and down and spiral.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: And stopping it is the only thing you can really do, right?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like the fear goes away.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's just no nothing good that can come from putting energy there.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a great point.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's on the on some of them that there's just no rational, there's no rationale behind, and there's no essentially point in in allowing it to linger.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and how much of our fear really, I think that uh probably a large percentage of of fears are coming from things that aren't actually immediate threats.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think there's a pretty public stat that a vast majority of things that we are afraid of never happen.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things I've said to myself is, I've even said to others is is don't make me live it twice.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like if the worst happens, the fear, the thing I'm fearful of, I'm gonna have to live it at that moment.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: So why live it now, especially knowing that the vast majority of the things don't actually happen.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: Which I think you're you've been better at in general anyway.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: So when when you say you have more fears now, I mean what where what is that?
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think part of it is is feeling the weight of the responsibility.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh part of it might be actually a fear that might drive a lot of them is me not living up to my full potential.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it's actually something that got brought up recently with work.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm doing a lot of interviews, as you know, we're looking for a chief commercialization officer, candidate, the great conversations, and one of the people asked me, What keeps you up at night pertaining to the company?
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I had to think about that.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so essentially the the question is, what are you fearful of, right?
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: And my answer was, if you had asked me this two years ago, I would have said that it was running out of money because we were an unprofitable burning company, which is a cash-burning company, which is very typical in my, you know, in my industry, and we were focused on growth.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_00: But what I realized is we were beholden to external money and investors and whatever they said goes essentially if I need the money.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not our case now.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to think about what does keep me up at night, and what keeps me up at night about our company is us not really realizing our full potential.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I explained to them the company is in a great place.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're growing respectfully, respectfully, we're growing respectably.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: We are profitable, yeah, and all things are headed in the right direction, but good is never what I strive for, great is, and there are a lot of opportunities to make this great.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I fear is not making it great.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I would apply that to this conversation, which is my entire life.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I just do good, if I'm a good dad, if I'm a good husband, if I'm a good entrepreneur, if I had a lot of experience which are good, I feel like that's a failure.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be great.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that's not healthy pressure, maybe I shouldn't think that way, but I do.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think my that's where my fear lies.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I think about, look, when I rationally think about our lives from where we started from to where we are now, it's been so amazing.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we've lived in multiple cities, we have, you know, I remember when we bought our first condo in Chicago, and we were really afraid of how much it cost, right?
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then when we bought this most recent house in Miami, I was really afraid of how much it cost.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've been afraid of every single person.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_00: And how are we gonna pay for it?
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not to your point, I'm not usually that fearful.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: But this one was a little bit, was a stretch.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and so we've lived great lives.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: So one part of me fears having to take any steps backwards, and then when I think about it, that's not the worst thing.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: I can always recover.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then the bigger long-term fears just not realizing my or our full potential and being great.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: And where do you think you're lacking there?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, comparison is is obviously not a good thing, but in my industry, we're always hearing about the multi-billion dollar exits and the people that did it in three or five years rather than ten.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I worry about that.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I fear that sometimes.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, I try to pull myself back from those fears and anchor in reality.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: The reality is there are anomalies, but most people don't do that, right?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or most companies don't do that.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: The vast majority of companies fail within the first year, especially in our space.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always want to do more, and you know this.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have to look at the what we've done, meaning travel or experiences or whatever, over the past year to really go, wow, we did a lot.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm usually thinking, what are we doing next?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I don't know if any of them are rational, but those are the things I fear.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've cried so much I want to curl up in a bowl.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you don't you don't need to know, and I think I think that's the point, right?
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's true, as always, uh this these aren't the answers.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not the end, it's just the beginning, and this is the question, right?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we leave you with the question, which is how is fear showing up in your life and how are you responding to it?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we ask you to find somebody to have that conversation with.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for being here.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: We appreciate it.