Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / War: How We Buy + Sell It and The Impact on Women + Children: with Dr. Samantha Nutt, Founder of War Child

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War: How We Buy + Sell It and The Impact on Women + Children: with Dr. Samantha Nutt, Founder of War Child · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
0:08
Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe, and each week my guests
0:12
Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
0:15
Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. As we watch a war
0:20
Speaker 1: in Ukraine unfold before our eyes, there's one woman who
0:23
Speaker 1: believes that while humans are responsible for all war, we
0:27
Speaker 1: are also the only ones with the power to stop it.
0:34
Speaker 1: Doctor Samantha Nutt is the founder of Warchild USA. It's
0:37
Speaker 1: an organization that aims to help children in war torn communities,
0:41
Speaker 1: taking a long term approach to breaking the cycle of
0:44
Speaker 1: poverty and violence. Doctor Nutt has worked in dozens of
0:48
Speaker 1: conflict zones and is a leading voice on current affairs,
0:52
Speaker 1: international aid and foreign policy.
0:55
Speaker 2: She traveled first.
0:55
Speaker 1: To one of the most dangerous conflict zones on Earth
0:58
Speaker 1: when she was just twenty five, and she's been traveling
1:01
Speaker 1: back to conflict zones ever since. Today we talk about
1:05
Speaker 1: how we are complicit in war, how we can stop it,
1:09
Speaker 1: and the implication of war, particularly on women and children.
1:14
Speaker 1: Just a quick note, we taped this interview about a
1:16
Speaker 1: week and a half ago, so I know that you
1:22
Speaker 1: were fresh out of medical school at twenty five years
1:25
Speaker 1: old and you traveled to a war zone in Somalia
1:28
Speaker 1: to work with UNICEF. You say, journalists called it the
1:31
Speaker 1: city of Death. Most people completely shy away from war zones,
1:37
Speaker 1: but you ran right towards one. What motivated you to
1:40
Speaker 1: do that back then?
1:42
Speaker 3: That's always a tough question to answer, to be honest
1:45
Speaker 3: with you, because I think part of it was that
1:49
Speaker 3: youthful idealism and that sense of in a way immunity
1:53
Speaker 3: from danger. And I don't know if I had fully
1:57
Speaker 3: appreciated the level of risk that I was taking at
2:00
Speaker 3: that moment in my life, that maybe I would have
2:02
Speaker 3: made a different decision regardless though you know, for me
2:05
Speaker 3: it was really about all the way through medical school.
2:08
Speaker 3: One of the reasons why I even went to medical
2:09
Speaker 3: school was because I was always very interested in to
2:13
Speaker 3: that intersection between women's health and the violence the women
2:17
Speaker 3: experience and the lack of realization of women's rights, not
2:21
Speaker 3: just here in North America but throughout the world. And
2:24
Speaker 3: you know, considered myself to be a feminist from a
2:26
Speaker 3: very young age and really invested in the advancement of
2:29
Speaker 3: women globally. And so for me, getting on that plane
2:32
Speaker 3: to go to Somalia, which was one of the worst
2:34
Speaker 3: places in the world to be a woman or a girl,
2:37
Speaker 3: where they have had extremely high rates of maternal mortality,
2:41
Speaker 3: and then on top of that the conflict and the
2:43
Speaker 3: ensuing famine. You know, to me, as a doctor, somebody
2:47
Speaker 3: interested in public health, as a woman who was deeply
2:49
Speaker 3: committed to these issues, it seemed like the logical and
2:53
Speaker 3: sort of natural thing to do, and to be honest
2:55
Speaker 3: as a doctor too, I felt that I could be
2:57
Speaker 3: extremely helpful there. It was the second wave of a famine.
3:01
Speaker 3: More than three hundred thousand people had died in Bidoa,
3:03
Speaker 3: which is the town that I was landing in, and
3:06
Speaker 3: I felt that I had tangible skills that I would
3:08
Speaker 3: be able to contribute to help keep people alive and
3:11
Speaker 3: put in particular women and children. We can talk afterwards
3:14
Speaker 3: about whether that proved to be true or not, or
3:18
Speaker 3: even whether that's the best way to help looking back,
3:20
Speaker 3: but at the time, that's what motivated me.
3:22
Speaker 1: If you can take me back to day one, you
3:24
Speaker 1: get off the plane and what was that experience.
3:27
Speaker 3: Even like it was intense, you know, Somolia is still
3:31
Speaker 3: one of the most challenging humanitarian environments in the world.
3:34
Speaker 3: And it didn't take very long. You know, I got
3:37
Speaker 3: off of this tiny six seater World Food Program plane
3:40
Speaker 3: in the middle of a landing strip in the desert,
3:43
Speaker 3: and we jumped into the back of a UN vehicle
3:47
Speaker 3: that actually was no longer a UN vehicle because it
3:49
Speaker 3: had been looted several months prior and now is being
3:53
Speaker 3: rented back by the United Nations. There were armed technicals
3:57
Speaker 3: on the roof of the car, in the back of
4:00
Speaker 3: the car who were you know, young men with semi
4:04
Speaker 3: automatic rifles who were there to protect aid workers, which
4:08
Speaker 3: was something that I was not either comfortable with or
4:11
Speaker 3: even familiar with at that moment in time. But there
4:13
Speaker 3: had been a number of after Operation Restore Hope, there
4:16
Speaker 3: had been a number of attacks on aid workers and
4:19
Speaker 3: AID convoys. And as we're driving into town, there were
4:23
Speaker 3: you know, grenades still with the pins in them, that
4:25
Speaker 3: rolled out from under the back of the car when
4:28
Speaker 3: the darmon put the brakes on and under my feet.
4:30
Speaker 3: So it you know, really to say that it was
4:33
Speaker 3: a rapid fire into what it means to be in
4:37
Speaker 3: war and to be a humanitarian in war, that would
4:40
Speaker 3: certainly be a profound understatement. And also just everything had
4:43
Speaker 3: been destroyed. We everywhere we went, schools were deserted, hospitals
4:48
Speaker 3: were full of bullet holes. There were you know, bodies
4:50
Speaker 3: in the street. I mean, it was. It was a
4:52
Speaker 3: very very heartbreaking, challenging and horrific time in that country's history.
4:59
Speaker 2: What was your p of war before going there.
5:03
Speaker 3: My perception of war before going there, honestly, Danielle, was
5:07
Speaker 3: that it was an isolated problem. You know, that war
5:12
Speaker 3: was something that most of the world had gone through,
5:16
Speaker 3: that now we had the United Nations, we had ways
5:19
Speaker 3: of resolving these disputes. As a kid in the eighties,
5:22
Speaker 3: you know, I certainly remember and now I'm dating myself,
5:25
Speaker 3: but the Cold War and the tensions around the Cold War,
5:28
Speaker 3: and so for me, I suppose war was a very
5:33
Speaker 3: geopolitical issue on the one hand, but at the same
5:37
Speaker 3: time it was a very local issue. And what I
5:40
Speaker 3: didn't fully appreciate was the extent to which, in many
5:44
Speaker 3: instances that violence is courted, it is sustained, it is
5:49
Speaker 3: enabled by a broader environment that is historical, that is colonial,
5:56
Speaker 3: that is economic, that is political, that in fact feeds
6:00
Speaker 3: and fuels and exacerbates many of these conflicts throughout the world.
6:03
Speaker 3: Even ones that you would presume are a problem of
6:07
Speaker 3: that particular that particular country and their particular history. It's
6:12
Speaker 3: simply not true. There are many many tentacles to war,
6:15
Speaker 3: and there are many ways in which all of us,
6:18
Speaker 3: as civilians occupying this shared space, are are implicated in
6:22
Speaker 3: the suffering and abuse that civilians living in war experience
6:25
Speaker 3: every day.
6:26
Speaker 1: I don't think I can even begin to imagine what
6:29
Speaker 1: changed in you after being there. Do you have any
6:32
Speaker 1: memories of perceptible changes?
6:36
Speaker 3: I do. Actually, you know, when you're in medical school,
6:39
Speaker 3: you you become pretty cocky, right, You become confident in
6:45
Speaker 3: that you think that you are I mean, there's no
6:49
Speaker 3: way to put this. I mean you think that you're
6:51
Speaker 3: you have skills, and you think that you're you're special
6:53
Speaker 3: and that you can save people, and and and the
6:56
Speaker 3: whole process of medical school that is sort of instill
7:00
Speaker 3: that philosophy into you. Right, And then landing in Somalia
7:05
Speaker 3: as I did, I was there just a couple of days,
7:08
Speaker 3: and you know, and again so confident not just about
7:11
Speaker 3: my skills but my usefulness in this situation. And I
7:15
Speaker 3: was standing there at a feeding clinics that was a
7:18
Speaker 3: unise of supported feeding clinic where women had been waiting
7:21
Speaker 3: all day holding their infants to be seen to be
7:23
Speaker 3: treated at this malnutrition clinic. And it's called supplemental feeding clinic.
7:27
Speaker 3: And about twenty minutes into this conversation I was having
7:30
Speaker 3: with this one young woman, and you know, there I am,
7:33
Speaker 3: and I have my stethoscope draped around my neck, you know,
7:35
Speaker 3: in the usual doctor way, and and I'm taking her
7:39
Speaker 3: history and taking notes. And I did something fairly innocuous.
7:42
Speaker 3: I just leaned forward to try to put my finger
7:44
Speaker 3: in the palm of her baby's hand. And when I
7:47
Speaker 3: did that, I discovered that her baby was was already
7:51
Speaker 3: in rigor. So this her baby had already succumbed to
7:54
Speaker 3: malnutrition and dehydration, you know, many many hours before. But
7:59
Speaker 3: yet here she was still standing in this line, waiting
8:02
Speaker 3: to be treated, and I had been, you know, standing
8:05
Speaker 3: there asking her these inane questions about her health. And
8:09
Speaker 3: you know, that moment really was both profoundly heartbreaking, but
8:14
Speaker 3: it also all of my assumptions and prescriptions and that
8:20
Speaker 3: sense of confidence, it all just immediately came crashing down.
8:26
Speaker 3: I mean, I was just I was crushed by what
8:28
Speaker 3: I was witnessing. And then to hear her story and
8:31
Speaker 3: to understand that she knew that her baby was dying,
8:34
Speaker 3: and that she had been detained by these young boys
8:37
Speaker 3: who had managed to get their hands on some collision
8:39
Speaker 3: of cough rifles and who had been shaking her down
8:41
Speaker 3: for two days at their own randomly established checkpoint while
8:45
Speaker 3: her baby was dying, trying to get money out of her,
8:47
Speaker 3: you know, sexually abusing her. It was just this scale
8:51
Speaker 3: of trauma and suffering, you know, and the implication there too,
8:56
Speaker 3: in terms of how these young men were able to
8:58
Speaker 3: get these weapons and carry out these kinds of atrocities,
9:01
Speaker 3: and following those weapons back to where they originated from
9:05
Speaker 3: and the arms trained and who's profiting from that. It
9:07
Speaker 3: seemed to me in that moment that this was a
9:11
Speaker 3: problem that was so catastrophic and so large and yet
9:15
Speaker 3: so poorly understood at the same time that we often
9:19
Speaker 3: characterize it as a simple situation where you know, there's
9:22
Speaker 3: conflict over there, you know, you've got some humanitarian aid
9:25
Speaker 3: that goes in, But it's way bigger than that, and
9:29
Speaker 3: it's a suffering that tragically we're all implicated in. At
9:32
Speaker 3: the same time, that means that we can make different
9:35
Speaker 3: choices So I would say that was the moment in
9:39
Speaker 3: my life where all of my smug prescriptions around aid
9:44
Speaker 3: and development and war, all of my naive convictions around
9:50
Speaker 3: my own usefulness and intelligence in those situations as a doctor,
9:56
Speaker 3: they were all just a fiction. And that realization was
10:00
Speaker 3: really important one and it has profoundly changed my life.
10:03
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say we can all make different choices,
10:06
Speaker 1: because at least for me, war seems so far away, Like,
10:12
Speaker 1: how could any of the choices I make have any
10:15
Speaker 1: implication on war in Somalia or other places in Ukraine?
10:20
Speaker 1: So I'm so excited or eager to talk to you
10:23
Speaker 1: about how our choices do matter. And before we get
10:27
Speaker 1: into that, I just want to ask you about Ukraine,
10:29
Speaker 1: if that's okay. Supporting it's top of mind for everybody.
10:34
Speaker 1: So as we're talking, this situation I think keeps getting
10:38
Speaker 1: more horrific, and also we're simultaneously somewhat desensitized to it.
10:44
Speaker 1: I see that on social media for sure. What's your
10:47
Speaker 1: biggest fear in regards to the conflict in Ukraine?
10:51
Speaker 3: My biggest fear is that this will become yet another
10:55
Speaker 3: intractable conflict that goes on for years. It has already
11:00
Speaker 3: displaced more you know, ten million people, more than three
11:04
Speaker 3: and a half million who've become refugees across borders, who
11:07
Speaker 3: currently are waiting, hoping to be able to return to
11:11
Speaker 3: the life that they used to know, children who've experienced
11:14
Speaker 3: tremendous trauma, women and children who are at extreme risk
11:18
Speaker 3: of exploitation and abuse in human trafficking, and you know,
11:22
Speaker 3: so my fear is that the longer this will drag on,
11:25
Speaker 3: the more refugees we will see from this conflict, the
11:29
Speaker 3: more devastating it will be, the higher the level of trauma,
11:32
Speaker 3: the higher the scale of need, and the greater the
11:35
Speaker 3: ongoing risk. At the same time, my other fear, and
11:38
Speaker 3: these go hand in hand, is that really the conflict
11:42
Speaker 3: in Ukraine has overtaken and overshadowed every other conversation about
11:49
Speaker 3: every other war zone that is taking place in the
11:52
Speaker 3: world right now. It wasn't that long ago, just last summer,
11:56
Speaker 3: six months ago, that we were all very much concerned
11:59
Speaker 3: about talking about this situation in Afghanistan, which has been
12:03
Speaker 3: particularly devastating for women and children. Even right now as
12:08
Speaker 3: we're having this conversation to Taliban are refusing to allow
12:11
Speaker 3: girls to attend secondary school. So my fear is twofold
12:16
Speaker 3: one is that this conflict in ukrent Crane will drag on,
12:20
Speaker 3: that the impact will be absolutely devastating. It already has
12:22
Speaker 3: been devastating, but it could even deepen. The longer it
12:26
Speaker 3: drags on, the less interested people will be, the less
12:30
Speaker 3: support there will be, even as the needs continue to escalate.
12:33
Speaker 3: And at the same time, it has completely hijacked the
12:37
Speaker 3: conversation and frankly the human and financial resources that are
12:42
Speaker 3: needed for other conflicts taking place throughout.
12:45
Speaker 2: The world as well.
12:47
Speaker 1: You've talked about trauma in both places thus far. If
12:51
Speaker 1: we were to zoom out, how do you see trauma
12:55
Speaker 1: like that impact generations to come?
12:57
Speaker 3: It does, and it does so in in many ways.
13:01
Speaker 3: I mean, even if you just look at children, for example,
13:04
Speaker 3: who are experiencing conflict, whether they're displaced or not, inevitably
13:10
Speaker 3: it becomes unsafe for them to access education. We know
13:14
Speaker 3: that education directly connects to economic opportunities in life. So
13:19
Speaker 3: kids who miss out on months, in some cases years
13:23
Speaker 3: of schooling struggle to get back into school, will struggle
13:27
Speaker 3: to finish their education, which can really sanction them to
13:31
Speaker 3: a lifetime of poverty. And then you see the generational
13:36
Speaker 3: impacts of that. For example, in addition, you have kids
13:40
Speaker 3: who are not in school, who are in many cases unaccompanied,
13:43
Speaker 3: who have experienced trauma, who are at higher risk of
13:47
Speaker 3: recruitment by various armed groups throughout the world, So then
13:50
Speaker 3: they're also at higher risk of engaging in armed warfare
13:55
Speaker 3: both now and in the future. You have a lot
13:58
Speaker 3: of young girls and women who are are at extreme
14:01
Speaker 3: risk of sexual exploitation and abuse because again there are
14:05
Speaker 3: very few means at their disposal to be able to
14:08
Speaker 3: not only earn an income, but also to be able
14:10
Speaker 3: to protect themselves. Some of them are arriving, they're unaccompanied,
14:14
Speaker 3: you know, they don't have access to their identity papers,
14:16
Speaker 3: so they're very vulnerable to all of these external actors
14:20
Speaker 3: who prey upon you know, their desperation, and so these
14:25
Speaker 3: generational effects, I mean, it doesn't take very long, a
14:31
Speaker 3: couple of years for them to begin to come into play.
14:35
Speaker 3: And that's why really when we're talking about how to
14:37
Speaker 3: address these issues, we have to have a long term view.
14:40
Speaker 3: And why education and economic opportunity, which are two areas
14:44
Speaker 3: that Workshell focuses on very specifically, are so critical to
14:48
Speaker 3: the approaches that we take because otherwise, you know, desperate
14:51
Speaker 3: people are driven to make desperate choices, and those desperate
14:54
Speaker 3: choices are often very dangerous ones.
14:57
Speaker 1: My grandmother and her entire family in the Holocaust, and
15:02
Speaker 1: most of them survived and came to America thankfully. But
15:08
Speaker 1: I've seen the impact and felt the impact two generations later,
15:13
Speaker 1: and they had, in many ways very fortunate circumstances compared
15:18
Speaker 1: to others. So it just it sets us back so far.
15:25
Speaker 2: It does.
15:26
Speaker 3: And that's I mean, you've you've really hit the nail
15:29
Speaker 3: on the head there. That's a that's you know, a
15:30
Speaker 3: really important example. And it manifests down the line in
15:35
Speaker 3: different ways as well, in terms of mental health impacts, dragging, alcohol, addiction, violence, uh, divorce.
15:42
Speaker 3: You know, it's like all of these kinds of things
15:44
Speaker 3: that that people harbor because war fundamentally erodes are our
15:51
Speaker 3: sense of self, our sense of security. It introduces a
15:56
Speaker 3: level of perpetual fear and anxiety of the impermanence of
16:01
Speaker 3: everything that we have. That is that is really difficult
16:05
Speaker 3: to manage for anyone, and that that is something that
16:09
Speaker 3: gets passed down. There's no question about that.
16:12
Speaker 1: I've never thought about the impermanence notion and you're right,
16:15
Speaker 1: I definitely feel that within my lineage personally, what do
16:20
Speaker 1: you wish more people understood about geopolitical advantage?
16:23
Speaker 3: What I wish more people understood was that we do.
16:27
Speaker 3: There is obviously geopolitical advantage, but that that really should
16:32
Speaker 3: reinforce or at least underscore, the need for us, for
16:37
Speaker 3: all of us, no matter where we live in the world,
16:39
Speaker 3: to pay attention to what's happening not just within our borders,
16:43
Speaker 3: but beyond our borders as well, to wrestle with some
16:46
Speaker 3: of these complicated, complex issues that tie into you know,
16:50
Speaker 3: economic inequality, geopolitical advantage, colonialism, history, you know, power dynamics,
16:55
Speaker 3: all of these things, and that also that really is
16:59
Speaker 3: a to action to us to give you know, I
17:03
Speaker 3: hear so often, well, why should I give to what's
17:05
Speaker 3: happening in other parts of the world. We have our
17:07
Speaker 3: own problems here at home, and that's true, but we
17:10
Speaker 3: can walk into gum here, right Like, just because you
17:12
Speaker 3: get care about breast cancer and homelessness and animal rights
17:17
Speaker 3: and all of these kinds of things, does not mean
17:19
Speaker 3: that you can't also care about those who are caught
17:23
Speaker 3: in the worst human tragedy, which is war.
17:27
Speaker 1: I'd like to think that the people I know are
17:29
Speaker 1: thoughtful and compassionate people. It seems like resources are really
17:35
Speaker 1: the only thing stopping most people from wanting to help,
17:39
Speaker 1: that there's only so much to go around. Do you
17:41
Speaker 1: have any suggestions in terms of how people can help
17:44
Speaker 1: that maybe doesn't include money.
17:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'll just to sort of dispel the idea
17:49
Speaker 3: that you need a lot of money to give to
17:52
Speaker 3: you know, the most effective way of giving is even
17:54
Speaker 3: a smaller regular contribution, so a monthly contribution, because it
17:58
Speaker 3: allows organizations you are doing doing the long term work
18:01
Speaker 3: like ours, to really make consistent investments in our programs,
18:06
Speaker 3: and it takes away the burden of having to constantly
18:09
Speaker 3: fundraise and do donor appeals and sit around and wonder,
18:12
Speaker 3: you know, are you going to have the resources by
18:13
Speaker 3: the end of the year to be able to run
18:15
Speaker 3: this program in for example, Afghanistan or Eastern Congos. So
18:18
Speaker 3: you don't have to write big checks. And I think
18:20
Speaker 3: that that's a myth. The most precious and important donors
18:24
Speaker 3: that are out there are the ones who give five
18:26
Speaker 3: dollars or ten dollars a month, because those are the
18:28
Speaker 3: ones that we rely on, that we can depend on
18:31
Speaker 3: and that really enable us to make long term plans,
18:34
Speaker 3: which I think provides security to our program. So that's
18:37
Speaker 3: the first thing I would say. The second thing I
18:39
Speaker 3: would say is that a lot of people have terrific talents,
18:41
Speaker 3: you know, whether it is participating through social media, sharing information,
18:47
Speaker 3: whether it is volunteering in some capacity. You know, we
18:49
Speaker 3: get contacted all the time by people. Sometimes we can
18:52
Speaker 3: use the skills, sometimes we can't. We'll say things like,
18:55
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if you need somebody who's
18:57
Speaker 3: really good at you know, at digital media, or really
19:00
Speaker 3: good at brand management, or you know, I don't know
19:03
Speaker 3: if you need somebody who's a translator, or or somebody
19:06
Speaker 3: who's really good at events, like I'll show up at
19:08
Speaker 3: one of your events and help out. Those kinds of
19:09
Speaker 3: things are really terrific, and so a lot we see
19:12
Speaker 3: a lot of people who just are good at different things,
19:15
Speaker 3: who bring their energy and their excitement and spread awareness
19:18
Speaker 3: and raise some funds in some cases, or just do
19:22
Speaker 3: some of the work that we, you know, don't have
19:24
Speaker 3: the time or the ability to be able to resource ourselves.
19:29
Speaker 1: So in your now famous Ted talk, you say war
19:32
Speaker 1: is ours, We buy it, sell it, spread it, and
19:36
Speaker 1: wage it. We are therefore not powerless to solve it.
19:40
Speaker 1: What do you mean by we buy it and sell it?
19:42
Speaker 3: Well, I mean what I was referring to specifically there
19:46
Speaker 3: is that we are not only deeply invested in war,
19:49
Speaker 3: but we on a daily basis, those of us who live,
19:52
Speaker 3: particularly in what we consider to be you know, small
19:55
Speaker 3: l liberal democracies or with that geoclitical privilege that you
19:58
Speaker 3: talked about earlier, we are deeply in in war, and
20:01
Speaker 3: we profit from war, and it is in everything that
20:03
Speaker 3: we do every single day. There is a mineral called coltan,
20:07
Speaker 3: also called tantalum, which is a conducting element which can
20:10
Speaker 3: be found in most of our cell phones and our
20:12
Speaker 3: computers and our video game consoles, that is actively mined
20:16
Speaker 3: from the Eastern Congo, which contains the world's largest cold
20:19
Speaker 3: tan deposits smuggled across the border with Rwanda, sold in
20:23
Speaker 3: exchange for cash and an exchange for weapons, and has
20:26
Speaker 3: been actively contributing to the violence and atrocities that are
20:30
Speaker 3: taking place in the Eastern Congo. So there's one example
20:33
Speaker 3: that we carry a little many of us carry around
20:36
Speaker 3: a little piece of the Congolese conflict in our pockets.
20:39
Speaker 3: Every day. Now there are programs that have been introduced
20:42
Speaker 3: in terms of recycling and smelting programs, and we can
20:45
Speaker 3: get into all of those kinds of things that you know,
20:48
Speaker 3: are are beginning to have an impact. And I'm not
20:50
Speaker 3: suggesting that the solution is we boycott cell phones, because
20:53
Speaker 3: in fact, you know, those local jobs are very much needed.
20:57
Speaker 3: But there are ways in which we can, i think
21:00
Speaker 3: all contribute to a more ethical sort of approach to
21:04
Speaker 3: to harvesting some of those conflict resources. So that's number one,
21:07
Speaker 3: you know. Number two is many of our public pension
21:09
Speaker 3: funds who have holdings in the world's top one hundred
21:13
Speaker 3: arms manufacturers, and you know, whether that's teachers pension funds
21:16
Speaker 3: or other public sector workers, you know, and that again
21:20
Speaker 3: implicates us. We're betting on the growth of war to
21:24
Speaker 3: see us through our goal so called golden years. And frankly,
21:29
Speaker 3: how sad is that? Right? And and so for us
21:32
Speaker 3: to then turn around and say, well, you know, it's
21:35
Speaker 3: really a problem of of what's going on over there,
21:38
Speaker 3: and you know these places have always been at war,
21:41
Speaker 3: I mean, that's not true. Even if you look at
21:43
Speaker 3: who manufactures arms on a global level and who sells
21:47
Speaker 3: those arms and who profits from those transactions. I mean,
21:50
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's the P five plus Germany, It's
21:53
Speaker 3: it's United States, it's Russia, it's China, it's France, it's Germany.
21:57
Speaker 3: You know, it's the UK. You know, And if you
22:00
Speaker 3: look at who's acquiring those arms, it's principally countries in Asia,
22:04
Speaker 3: Africa and Middle East. So there's definitely a not only
22:07
Speaker 3: a north south divide, but a rich, rich country, lower
22:10
Speaker 3: income country divide around you know, who's profiting from the
22:14
Speaker 3: sale of those arms and where are civilians dying as
22:17
Speaker 3: a result of those transactions. Annual will and I won't
22:20
Speaker 3: go on about this, but you know, annual worldwide military
22:22
Speaker 3: spending right now is at its highest point. It's two
22:26
Speaker 3: trillion dollars. It's about two hundred and fifty nine dollars
22:29
Speaker 3: per person on Earth, and it's still twelve times what
22:32
Speaker 3: we spend on international humanitarian assistance, on ensuring that children
22:36
Speaker 3: in low income and unstable environments can go to school
22:40
Speaker 3: and have access to food and clean drinking water and healthcare.
22:43
Speaker 3: I mean, why is that? You know, these are the
22:45
Speaker 3: kinds of questions that we really need to be asking ourselves.
22:48
Speaker 3: If we are invested in more peaceful, sustainable societies.
22:54
Speaker 1: Total arms sales among the world's one hundred largest defense
22:57
Speaker 1: contractors tops for hundred billion yearly. The US is home
23:02
Speaker 1: to five of the world's ten largest defense contractors, and
23:06
Speaker 1: American companies account for fifty seven percent of total arm
23:09
Speaker 1: sales by the world's one hundredth largest defense contractors.
23:13
Speaker 2: So we are really invested in war, really.
23:16
Speaker 3: Invested in war. Canadians, Americans, you know, Western European countries
23:20
Speaker 3: are heavily invested in war. One of the main recipients,
23:24
Speaker 3: for example, of our arms right now is Saudi Arabia.
23:27
Speaker 3: Saudi Arabia is actively involved in the conflict in eastern
23:31
Speaker 3: Yemen that's killed more than three hundred and fifty thousand
23:34
Speaker 3: people since twenty fourteen, eighty five thousand of them children,
23:38
Speaker 3: you know, And so so yes, it's not a mystery
23:42
Speaker 3: in terms of who's profiting for war and who's paying
23:45
Speaker 3: the price in war. And that's why, you know, I
23:47
Speaker 3: made the point that war is distinctly ours as human beings.
23:50
Speaker 3: We do. We buy it, we sell it, we spread it,
23:53
Speaker 3: we wage it. And the flip side of that is
23:56
Speaker 3: it means that we're not powerless to stop it. You know,
23:58
Speaker 3: it means that it is, as a wholly human construct,
24:02
Speaker 3: within our purview to do something about it, to hold
24:08
Speaker 3: our arms manufacturers and countries that are profiting from those
24:12
Speaker 3: transactions to account, but also to increase the transparency. Part
24:16
Speaker 3: of the challenge here is that a lot of this
24:19
Speaker 3: is clouded in mystery. You know, we don't really know
24:24
Speaker 3: all as much as we should about the arms deals
24:28
Speaker 3: that our governments and our arms manufacturers are engaged in
24:31
Speaker 3: and where they're going and if not where they're going,
24:34
Speaker 3: where they're ultimately ending up because their first stop is
24:37
Speaker 3: rarely their last. And the fact that there is so
24:40
Speaker 3: little transparency means that this is an industry that can
24:44
Speaker 3: continue to operate without accountability, and that's a huge problem.
24:49
Speaker 1: What are the ways in which we're unknowingly complying with war, Well.
24:53
Speaker 3: You mentioned some of them in terms of our governments
24:55
Speaker 3: center our arms transactions, our arms deals, our arms manufacturers,
25:00
Speaker 3: our investment holdings, conflict resources that, as I've mentioned, have
25:04
Speaker 3: often end up in our electronics for example. You know
25:07
Speaker 3: these are and then in terms of legacy, right in
25:11
Speaker 3: terms of if you look at even the monuments that
25:14
Speaker 3: you'll see spread around, whether it's it's Belgium or England
25:19
Speaker 3: or France or elsewhere. I mean in the United States
25:22
Speaker 3: right now, there has been there's been a massive reckoning
25:26
Speaker 3: around the legacy of slavery and how it has led
25:30
Speaker 3: to both generational privilege but also generational risks and incarceration
25:36
Speaker 3: and human rights abuses. And it's the same thing when
25:40
Speaker 3: we're talking about war. You know, there is a reckoning
25:43
Speaker 3: that we that still needs to take place around the
25:46
Speaker 3: history of colonialism and wealthy countries and their contributions, their
25:51
Speaker 3: ongoing contributions to conflict throughout the world. And I think
25:55
Speaker 3: that when that happens, it will be both profound, but
25:59
Speaker 3: it will also I think deep in our understanding around
26:01
Speaker 3: our connections to war and the importance of investing in sustainable,
26:06
Speaker 3: peaceful solutions.
26:08
Speaker 1: So your organization aims to fix some humanitarian efforts that
26:13
Speaker 1: can go really pretty sideways. Can you explain the approach
26:17
Speaker 1: that you took in the main problems that you're working
26:19
Speaker 1: on to fix with war Child?
26:22
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I mean, really, when you look at aids throughout
26:25
Speaker 3: the world, there is a time for short term intervention.
26:28
Speaker 3: Usually what happens when there is a conflict the overwhelming
26:30
Speaker 3: focus is on short term needs, so food, water, shelter, blankets, healthcare,
26:35
Speaker 3: and that's critically important, but wars are rarely short term.
26:39
Speaker 3: They are almost always long term, on average at least
26:42
Speaker 3: seven years summer spanning decades. Now, even if you look
26:46
Speaker 3: at the war in Afghanistan, it's been more than twenty years,
26:48
Speaker 3: and that's just been since two thousand and one. Even
26:51
Speaker 3: prior to that, it was a country that was really
26:53
Speaker 3: locked in in a lot of conflict. So in that context,
26:57
Speaker 3: kids fall further and further behind, human rights erose even more,
27:00
Speaker 3: poverty and violence become much more pronounced. And so if
27:06
Speaker 3: you want to stop that cycle of poverty and violence
27:09
Speaker 3: and despair, you need to transition beyond those short term
27:13
Speaker 3: needs and look at how do you rebuild communities, how
27:16
Speaker 3: do you create and foster transformational change, generational change. And
27:21
Speaker 3: that's when warchild comes in, and so that's why we
27:23
Speaker 3: focus on things like education, catch up learning, getting kids
27:27
Speaker 3: back into school, kids wh've been out of school, teenagers
27:29
Speaker 3: who've been out of school for seven eight years. You've
27:31
Speaker 3: been fighting with militia groups getting them back into the
27:33
Speaker 3: appropriate grade level so that they can graduate, so that
27:36
Speaker 3: they can begin to make plans and have hope for
27:39
Speaker 3: the future that they can go on to additional education
27:42
Speaker 3: if they should desire it. Economic development, especially for women
27:46
Speaker 3: female headed households, so that they have the means and
27:49
Speaker 3: the resources to be able to provide for themselves and
27:51
Speaker 3: provide for their children. Access to justice. You know, that
27:54
Speaker 3: sounds extremely technical, but we have to create protection mechanisms
27:58
Speaker 3: to uphold and enforce the rule of law. And where
28:01
Speaker 3: the rule of law is in question or where there isn't,
28:04
Speaker 3: you know, the opportunity to enforce it. There are other
28:07
Speaker 3: ways through community reconciliation, mediation, that kind of thing, where
28:12
Speaker 3: you can be extremely active and promote a more peaceful
28:16
Speaker 3: and inclusive environment. So those are some of the ways
28:18
Speaker 3: in which Warchild takes a long term view of the
28:21
Speaker 3: problem of war and implements long term strategies that ultimately
28:26
Speaker 3: enable people to realize the kinds of opportunities that they
28:31
Speaker 3: that they hope for in life and that ultimately promote
28:34
Speaker 3: peace and stability.
28:35
Speaker 2: What's Warchild's biggest hurdle or difficulty.
28:39
Speaker 3: It's twofold one is financial. Always there are you know,
28:44
Speaker 3: dozens of conflicts throughout the world that we should be
28:46
Speaker 3: actively involved in but because of resources, we're not able
28:49
Speaker 3: to or places where where we have those three tiers education,
28:54
Speaker 3: access to justice, and economic development where we might only
28:56
Speaker 3: have the resources for one as opposed to some of
28:59
Speaker 3: the other programming area. But we know that the most
29:01
Speaker 3: holistic programs are the most effective. So money is always
29:04
Speaker 3: a challenge for us, especially as this scale of need
29:08
Speaker 3: continues to swell throughout the world. Again, there are many
29:11
Speaker 3: places where we should be operating, we just don't have
29:13
Speaker 3: the resources to do so. And then the second is
29:15
Speaker 3: always security. Security. Security security is a huge impediment for
29:19
Speaker 3: any organization doing this kind of work. We have to
29:22
Speaker 3: ensure the safety and security of our staff and also
29:25
Speaker 3: those who are benefiting from our programs. And when there
29:28
Speaker 3: is active conflict going on and when people are not
29:31
Speaker 3: able to get to places that where you can run
29:34
Speaker 3: those kinds of programs or get access to them, that
29:36
Speaker 3: that is a huge threat to our work, and it's
29:40
Speaker 3: when we're constantly monitoring.
29:42
Speaker 1: One of the things I learned and thought was so
29:45
Speaker 1: interesting when I was researching for this interview was that
29:48
Speaker 1: early on, I think a lot of times that people
29:52
Speaker 1: go into these situations and feel like they want to
29:55
Speaker 1: help and they can get in there and do good work.
29:57
Speaker 1: And you were saying that you have to take a
30:00
Speaker 1: really holistic approach, like it has to also come from
30:04
Speaker 1: the environment of the country or the city that you're in,
30:08
Speaker 1: and you need boots on the ground and people from
30:11
Speaker 1: those communities that are also championing you.
30:15
Speaker 3: That is exactly right and the most important thing. Really,
30:18
Speaker 3: the best and most effective strategies, the most effective humanitarian
30:22
Speaker 3: aid programs are driven by the experience, the competencies, the
30:27
Speaker 3: deep knowledge, the community connections of local people, which is
30:30
Speaker 3: why you know, throughout the world ninety nine percent of
30:33
Speaker 3: our staff are local. They are the ones leading a charge,
30:37
Speaker 3: designing the programs, doing the work, and you know they're
30:39
Speaker 3: being paid for those for those services, which is really important.
30:42
Speaker 3: Also creates local economic opportunities for them. You know, too
30:45
Speaker 3: often we think that we have the answers and we don't.
30:49
Speaker 3: And having a deep experience and knowledge of the local context.
30:54
Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people rushed in with really
30:56
Speaker 3: good intentions, but you know, frankly, parts of the world,
30:59
Speaker 3: Africa in particular, it can be plagued by our misspent altruism.
31:04
Speaker 3: I'll give you a good example. You know, we often
31:06
Speaker 3: people will put their used T shirts into donation bins
31:09
Speaker 3: and then you know, they get sent overseas. You know,
31:12
Speaker 3: you can draw a direct line between the sort of
31:14
Speaker 3: surplus goods that originated on our side of the world
31:19
Speaker 3: to the loss of hundreds of thousands of textile jobs
31:22
Speaker 3: on the content of Africa because their markets get flooded
31:25
Speaker 3: with you know, cheap used band T shirts and you know,
31:29
Speaker 3: all kinds of stuff for pennies on the dollar. And
31:32
Speaker 3: then those those local tailors and local trades, they get
31:36
Speaker 3: undercut and they don't have the opportunity to sell their
31:38
Speaker 3: goods and make a living. And so it's not enough
31:40
Speaker 3: to want to do the right thing. You have to
31:42
Speaker 3: know what you're doing. And if you don't know what
31:43
Speaker 3: you're doing, then it's better that you find and invest
31:46
Speaker 3: in those who do.
31:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are I mean, that's something I would have
31:50
Speaker 1: never thought of. So thank you for.
31:53
Speaker 2: Sharing a great point.
31:54
Speaker 3: Thank you for asking me.
31:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've seen more death and tragedy than most people
31:59
Speaker 1: ever see in their entire lives.
32:01
Speaker 2: This is a tough question.
32:02
Speaker 1: But who were you before you saw all of this
32:06
Speaker 1: versus who you are now?
32:08
Speaker 3: That's interesting because I think you know age also changes
32:12
Speaker 3: you in certain respects, and so I'm a lot older
32:15
Speaker 3: than I was when I first started. I've been doing
32:16
Speaker 3: this work for almost a quarter century now, and so
32:19
Speaker 3: that's changed me as well. I think that before I
32:24
Speaker 3: was probably you know, somewhat naive and yet and yet scrappy,
32:31
Speaker 3: really had a strong conviction and belief in justice, in
32:36
Speaker 3: women's rights, in human rights and human dignity. But I
32:39
Speaker 3: think that what has changed for me now is that
32:42
Speaker 3: a lot of that at the time was certainly more theoretical,
32:46
Speaker 3: it was more academic, It was maybe more more personal
32:49
Speaker 3: in nature. And then you go through what I have
32:54
Speaker 3: been through, and then that that quest, that drive it
32:58
Speaker 3: comes from a place of personal experience, and so it
33:03
Speaker 3: feels even bigger. The weight of it feels bigger. And
33:07
Speaker 3: sometimes that can feel kind of breathless, you know, it
33:10
Speaker 3: can feel in a way, sort of suffocating, because the
33:13
Speaker 3: frustrations are there, the scale of need is there. You
33:17
Speaker 3: just feel like you're never doing enough, or that it
33:20
Speaker 3: will never be enough. But at the same time, it
33:24
Speaker 3: motivates you through those periods where you think, Okay, I
33:29
Speaker 3: don't know if I have the energy for this anymore,
33:31
Speaker 3: right that I still I've lived with war. I have
33:35
Speaker 3: lost friends to war. I understand because I have confronted it,
33:39
Speaker 3: the horror of war throughout the world. And the only
33:43
Speaker 3: thing that those who are participating in our programs and
33:46
Speaker 3: leading our programs, our local staff ask of people like
33:49
Speaker 3: me every day to do is to just haul my
33:52
Speaker 3: ass out of bed and do everything I can do
33:55
Speaker 3: to make that work possible. And so in a way,
33:59
Speaker 3: the problem feels bigger to me, but I feel smaller
34:03
Speaker 3: in that equation, and it's that recognition of my own
34:08
Speaker 3: sort of smallness and that equation that motivates me to
34:12
Speaker 3: push through even in those times when I feel like
34:14
Speaker 3: I don't have the energy for it. I don't know
34:15
Speaker 3: if I've explained that properly, but it's what you're saying.
34:20
Speaker 3: You know, living with war is, or having lived with
34:22
Speaker 3: war is it teaches you both about the fragility of
34:25
Speaker 3: life but also the sanctity of it. And it also
34:29
Speaker 3: very quickly teaches you what's important. And it's not you know,
34:33
Speaker 3: the size of your TV or the car that you drive,
34:36
Speaker 3: or you know, I'm not trying to sound self righteous here,
34:38
Speaker 3: it's it's just it's it's about who you love and
34:41
Speaker 3: who loves you, and that's it. If you've got that,
34:45
Speaker 3: your life is so rich.
34:48
Speaker 1: You've escaped death numerous amounts of times. Is there a
34:53
Speaker 1: story that you can share with us? I only ask
34:57
Speaker 1: because I think war feels, like I said earlier, far
35:01
Speaker 1: away for people, and you feel close, you know. So
35:04
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you feel comfortable sharing a story with us.
35:08
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, look, I have been, you know, I've
35:11
Speaker 3: been in a few close calls. I've been in car
35:13
Speaker 3: ambushes that I was lucky to survive. I have been,
35:17
Speaker 3: you know more. I mean one of the sort of
35:20
Speaker 3: more difficult situations I was in was when I was
35:22
Speaker 3: trapped on the front line, effectively bunkered down in a
35:27
Speaker 3: locally run hotel in eastern Congo in two thousand and four.
35:30
Speaker 3: And we were there for a couple of days and there.
35:34
Speaker 3: What had happened, what had transparted, and I wrote about
35:35
Speaker 3: this in my book, was that the Rwanan government had
35:39
Speaker 3: the Congo's government had arrested some Rwandan generals who were
35:42
Speaker 3: attempting to cross back over the border. There were one
35:44
Speaker 3: in government had been actively funding the rebels operating in
35:48
Speaker 3: eastern Congo. All hell broke loose. Various opposition groups were
35:52
Speaker 3: fighting each other and shooting at each other, a lot
35:55
Speaker 3: of child soldiers, and we were essentially trapped, and there
36:00
Speaker 3: were mortars going off, and you know, the ceiling was
36:04
Speaker 3: crumbling in the building that we were in, and you know,
36:06
Speaker 3: spending nights like that listening to that feeling, that bombardment
36:11
Speaker 3: which shakes you to the core, hearing the rounds go off,
36:15
Speaker 3: and wondering how many minutes you have left until they
36:18
Speaker 3: will be at your door, or until one of these
36:21
Speaker 3: rounds that you know, one of these grenades lands on you.
36:24
Speaker 3: It's it's terrifying, you know, it's absolutely terrifying. And that's
36:29
Speaker 3: what I think about when I see, for example, coverage
36:32
Speaker 3: of the war in the in Ukraine. It's it's one
36:34
Speaker 3: thing to watch the analysis of this stuff and to
36:40
Speaker 3: listen to the rhetoric on all sides and the geopolitical
36:44
Speaker 3: positioning and everything else. But when I watch that coverage,
36:47
Speaker 3: I really do feel what it's like to be one
36:49
Speaker 3: of those people stuck, not knowing what road you can
36:55
Speaker 3: take out and being with in the case of Eastern Congo,
36:59
Speaker 3: is with my husband, you know, being with the person
37:01
Speaker 3: that you love and and not knowing whether this is
37:04
Speaker 3: your last day on earth, and and the reckoning that
37:07
Speaker 3: goes on with that. So it's you know, war is worst, worst, worse,
37:15
Speaker 3: It's it's horrible, it's tough, it's really tough. And so
37:18
Speaker 3: that's that's what I like. Again, That's what I that's
37:20
Speaker 3: what I think about even now when I watch coverage
37:23
Speaker 3: of these wars. It shakes me because it's it's a
37:26
Speaker 3: part of me. It feels very personal, and you don't
37:28
Speaker 3: leave that behind. I mean, you know, it manifests itself
37:31
Speaker 3: in different ways all the time, sometimes in ways that
37:35
Speaker 3: you learn to live with that. Even your friends and
37:37
Speaker 3: family members kind of you know, like raise their eyebrows up.
37:41
Speaker 3: But I mean even still, for me, I can't I
37:43
Speaker 3: can't listen. I can't sit through a firework show. I
37:46
Speaker 3: avoid them at all costs, right, I can't listen to
37:49
Speaker 3: if there there's an air show and planes are flying overhead.
37:52
Speaker 3: I uh, you know, if I even even still, I'll
37:55
Speaker 3: think that I'm fine, and then I'll walk down the
37:56
Speaker 3: street having had a lovely dinner with somebody in a
37:58
Speaker 3: car will backfire, and then you'll see me like tuck
38:01
Speaker 3: and roll and hide behind the nearest brick structure, you know,
38:04
Speaker 3: and the first and I went, We'll go are you
38:06
Speaker 3: Are you okay this? I hope you know. I I
38:13
Speaker 3: scan every room I'm in in public all the time.
38:16
Speaker 3: It just is how you learn to adapt when you've
38:20
Speaker 3: lived with insecurity. And again, I don't mean for this
38:23
Speaker 3: to sound about me. What I have experienced is a
38:26
Speaker 3: fraction of what people experience, and so I know what
38:31
Speaker 3: they're confronting when they come out and what they're confronting
38:34
Speaker 3: for the rest of their lives.
38:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
38:38
Speaker 1: You've said that in some places it's easier to get
38:41
Speaker 1: access to an automatic rifle than it is to get
38:43
Speaker 1: access to clean drinking water. And I was shocked by
38:48
Speaker 1: this that the cost of an AK forty seven can
38:50
Speaker 1: be just ten dollars. Can you explain how that's possible?
38:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so those are those were for a few
38:57
Speaker 3: years ago in their US State Department figures. I mean,
38:59
Speaker 3: it varies, but you can certainly pick one up for
39:02
Speaker 3: you know, a few hundred dollars in different parts of
39:03
Speaker 3: the world. If you're in an act of war zone
39:06
Speaker 3: because people are trying to scramble to get weapons, then
39:08
Speaker 3: the cost of those weapons will sometimes go up. But
39:10
Speaker 3: what happens with a lot of these weapons, in particular
39:12
Speaker 3: the AK forty seven, is that it is virtually indestructible,
39:16
Speaker 3: and so many of the ones that you will see
39:18
Speaker 3: in circulation, once it enters into a global market, it
39:21
Speaker 3: stays in that market. It is it's rare that it
39:24
Speaker 3: gets removed from that marketplace. Some of the ones you
39:26
Speaker 3: see child soldiers in different parts of the world carrying
39:28
Speaker 3: on their backs will be We're manufactured in the fifties
39:31
Speaker 3: and sixties, and so you know, those kinds of old
39:33
Speaker 3: school are really easy to no pun intended to get
39:37
Speaker 3: your hands on, and fairly cheap. And in some parts
39:40
Speaker 3: of the world, yes, it's easier to go out and
39:42
Speaker 3: buy a weapon like this which you can then use
39:45
Speaker 3: to threaten and intimidate, extort, you know, perpetuate sexual violence
39:49
Speaker 3: than it is to get access to clean drinking water.
39:52
Speaker 3: And this is part of the problem we have. One
39:54
Speaker 3: there's more than one billion of these arms in circulation
39:57
Speaker 3: in the world right now. Eighty five percent of them
39:59
Speaker 3: are in the h of civilians. And by civilians I
40:02
Speaker 3: mean not just people who have them locked in a
40:04
Speaker 3: cabinet downstairs in their basement. I mean people who also
40:07
Speaker 3: just you know, are working for different rebel groups and
40:09
Speaker 3: opposition groups or criminal groups throughout the world, you know,
40:12
Speaker 3: and using them to their advantage, with civilians paying the
40:16
Speaker 3: price for that.
40:17
Speaker 1: You know, I just realized that I asked you about
40:19
Speaker 1: some of your most difficult days in more and I
40:23
Speaker 1: haven't asked you about sort of the profound human spirit
40:27
Speaker 1: that you've witnessed. Also, is there anything that you've experienced
40:32
Speaker 1: that you feel like gives you hope?
40:34
Speaker 3: All of it?
40:36
Speaker 2: All of it.
40:36
Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't continue to do this work if
40:38
Speaker 3: I didn't have hope. You know, every day that our
40:42
Speaker 3: offices running programs and I hear about the results of
40:45
Speaker 3: those programs makes me incredibly hopeful. You know. For example,
40:49
Speaker 3: in eastern Congo, we have what's called a distance based
40:53
Speaker 3: learning program where kids who are being held back, girls
40:56
Speaker 3: especially held back from school because of the high risk
40:59
Speaker 3: of sexual violence or you know, injury as a result
41:02
Speaker 3: of the conflict. They were being kept home. Some of
41:04
Speaker 3: them were being forced into early what are called early
41:06
Speaker 3: child marriages because you know, there was something else for
41:09
Speaker 3: them and their families. You know, we're becoming increasingly desperate
41:12
Speaker 3: and so using the very basic technology of radio. We
41:16
Speaker 3: developed curriculum that's tied to the national curriculum in Eastern
41:19
Speaker 3: Congo that then gets piped into those communities. The kids
41:22
Speaker 3: come together, they learn, We have in some cases teaching
41:25
Speaker 3: assistants who go out to those communities who work with
41:27
Speaker 3: the kids. And then we've studied these kids and they
41:29
Speaker 3: have taken their exams and they have a higher matriculation,
41:33
Speaker 3: way a higher pass rate even than the national average.
41:35
Speaker 3: And so during COVID we rolled that out from you know,
41:38
Speaker 3: several thousand kids that we were working with to hopefully
41:41
Speaker 3: by the end of next year, it'll be up to
41:42
Speaker 3: half a million Congolese children who didn't have access to education.
41:46
Speaker 3: And you know, whether it's in Eastern Congo or in
41:49
Speaker 3: Uganda where we're working having similar kinds of catch up
41:52
Speaker 3: learning programs and bustance based learning programs with Southern Sudanese refugees.
41:57
Speaker 3: You ask these kids, you know what how it's how
42:00
Speaker 3: it's worked for them, and they'll say, you know, two
42:02
Speaker 3: years ago I was I was fighting in the bush,
42:04
Speaker 3: and now I'm getting ready to graduate and I tell
42:08
Speaker 3: my friends to come because this is this is going
42:11
Speaker 3: to change their lives. And now I have, you know,
42:13
Speaker 3: I want to be a doctor, or I want to
42:14
Speaker 3: be a lawyer or a teacher, or you know, go
42:17
Speaker 3: into business. And that realization that they have that there
42:20
Speaker 3: are alternatives in life to violence and to warfare is
42:24
Speaker 3: it's a huge part of their recovery, but it's also
42:26
Speaker 3: a huge part of the promotion of peace within their communities.
42:29
Speaker 3: And that that is amazing. You know, that's the stuff
42:32
Speaker 3: that just inspires me every single day. And I have
42:36
Speaker 3: so so many stories like this, and our staff, our
42:40
Speaker 3: staff are hugely inspiring, you know, the fact that they
42:43
Speaker 3: get up and they do what they do, and you know,
42:46
Speaker 3: even during the pandemic, they're just they're just they're amazing.
42:50
Speaker 3: You know, they're amazing.
42:52
Speaker 2: I have such a weird question.
42:53
Speaker 3: You I love weird questions.
42:56
Speaker 1: Do you find it hard to relate to the average
43:00
Speaker 1: American because you've just seen and done so much?
43:03
Speaker 2: I think I used to.
43:05
Speaker 3: And here here's where I think getting older really helps
43:07
Speaker 3: in this respect. I remember coming back from Somalia, and
43:10
Speaker 3: I was also in Liberia, and I was in you know,
43:12
Speaker 3: Burundi and Iraq and elsewhere, and I was in my
43:15
Speaker 3: late twenties at this point in time, and you know,
43:17
Speaker 3: I'd be standing in line at the bank and somebody'd
43:19
Speaker 3: be having a meltdown in front of me, and I'd be,
43:21
Speaker 3: you know, I'd be there, be going, don't you know
43:23
Speaker 3: there are children that are starving? And then you know,
43:26
Speaker 3: and I was just this self righteous pain in the ass, right,
43:29
Speaker 3: you know, And then you realize that people you're not
43:32
Speaker 3: going to engage people that way. You know, first of all,
43:34
Speaker 3: you realize that you're rapidly losing friends because they can
43:36
Speaker 3: no longer relate to you on any level. But but
43:38
Speaker 3: also that you know, you're just all you're doing is
43:42
Speaker 3: is is shaming people and making them feel helpless and hopeless, right,
43:45
Speaker 3: and that defeats the purpose. And so now you know,
43:48
Speaker 3: more than anything else, I I what I try to
43:51
Speaker 3: do is engage people in conversation in different ways, whether
43:55
Speaker 3: it's through public speaking, whether it's through writing, whether it's
43:58
Speaker 3: through you know, events like this, and thank you for
44:00
Speaker 3: inviting me to do this. It's just that you have
44:02
Speaker 3: to reach people where they are, and sometimes that kind
44:06
Speaker 3: of change is incremental, and no good comes from being
44:09
Speaker 3: angry or self righteous or polarizing the conversation or shaming them.
44:14
Speaker 3: It really is about deepening our understanding and recognizing that
44:19
Speaker 3: everybody has issues that they're passionate about, and you know,
44:22
Speaker 3: maybe they'll learn something or maybe you can support what
44:25
Speaker 3: they're passionate about. Right It's where we live in these
44:28
Speaker 3: sort of this world of very false choices and very
44:31
Speaker 3: binary thinking, and I always try to push push through
44:35
Speaker 3: that now and now too. I just I really appreciate
44:38
Speaker 3: what I have here. I'm grateful that I get to
44:41
Speaker 3: do the work that I do, but I'm also really
44:43
Speaker 3: grateful when I'm home, and I try not to rail
44:45
Speaker 3: against it because I recognize how lucky we are.
44:49
Speaker 2: Do you make different choices post motherhood?
44:52
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, in the sense that I mean I still
44:55
Speaker 3: I've always taken my security very very seriously, So that's
44:59
Speaker 3: not so much the issue. The issue for me is
45:01
Speaker 3: that I also want to be present and available to
45:04
Speaker 3: my son, especially because he's a teenager now, which you know,
45:07
Speaker 3: believe it or not, you can ignore them a lot
45:09
Speaker 3: more when they're younger than you can when they're older.
45:11
Speaker 3: So at least that's what I've discovered. And you know,
45:15
Speaker 3: your your sense of how to keep them safe changes,
45:18
Speaker 3: that's for sure. But so you know, I used to
45:20
Speaker 3: be overseas for months at a time. That is not
45:22
Speaker 3: that is physically not possible for me anymore. When I
45:24
Speaker 3: when I do travel, I'm usually away for a few
45:27
Speaker 3: weeks at a time, constantly in touch.
45:30
Speaker 1: Okay, I do a little rapid fire before let's do
45:33
Speaker 1: them do that?
45:35
Speaker 2: Okay, So yeah, you deserve some fun.
45:39
Speaker 1: What is a.
45:40
Speaker 2: Place you would love to travel that you've not been to?
45:43
Speaker 3: Anywhere that has one of those buildings on sticks on
45:47
Speaker 3: turquoise colored water. And I know there are a few
45:49
Speaker 3: of them, but I'll go to any one of them.
45:51
Speaker 3: That would be one of the places I would absolutely
45:53
Speaker 3: love to go to.
45:55
Speaker 2: That me too, I'm with you. What's something big and
45:58
Speaker 2: something small that you'd like to change about the world.
46:02
Speaker 3: Well, I think I've already working on the big one,
46:04
Speaker 3: which is world peace.
46:07
Speaker 2: You are truly a beauty queen.
46:10
Speaker 3: And then something small. I don't know, I just think that,
46:14
Speaker 3: And maybe this isn't small, Maybe this.
46:15
Speaker 2: Is also big.
46:16
Speaker 3: But the tenor of life these days is just so
46:19
Speaker 3: intense and competitive and full of division and rage, And
46:24
Speaker 3: if I could just turn the dial down on some
46:26
Speaker 3: of that, that would make me very happy.
46:29
Speaker 1: What's a historical event or a figure that you think
46:32
Speaker 1: more people need to be made aware of.
46:34
Speaker 3: I think the historical event we need to be made
46:36
Speaker 3: more aware of is that war is an ongoing tragedy.
46:41
Speaker 3: And right now we have eighty more than eighty million
46:43
Speaker 3: people displaced by large and big conflict throughout the world,
46:48
Speaker 3: which is the highest million. Yeah, it's more than eighty
46:51
Speaker 3: million people, the highest number that we have seen since
46:53
Speaker 3: World War Two. And yet when we think about war,
46:56
Speaker 3: we think about it in the abstract. We think about
46:59
Speaker 3: it as one thing or one thing there, and then
47:01
Speaker 3: we kind of tune it out. But it is. It
47:04
Speaker 3: is a massive problem that has only been growing in scale,
47:09
Speaker 3: and I would encourage everyone to be to be more
47:12
Speaker 3: aware of that and understand what's driving them.
47:15
Speaker 1: Is there a book that changed your life that you
47:17
Speaker 1: think everyone should read.
47:19
Speaker 3: I'm a book nerd and always have been, so picking
47:23
Speaker 3: one would be extremely difficult, you know. I've always been
47:27
Speaker 3: a huge fan of Orwell. I think I first read
47:30
Speaker 3: Animal Farm when I was about eleven years of age,
47:32
Speaker 3: and it really profoundly impacted on how I think about
47:36
Speaker 3: the world and the hypocrisies that are within it, you know,
47:39
Speaker 3: And then I went on to read all the dystopias.
47:41
Speaker 3: I've always had a thing about the dystopias, which was
47:44
Speaker 3: probably a hint.
47:45
Speaker 1: Actually wait, yeah, you know it's funny when I interview
47:48
Speaker 1: people on this podcast. I always find that it's given
47:53
Speaker 1: me like a great mirror to look at myself. But
47:55
Speaker 1: I find that everybody knows exactly who they are as
47:58
Speaker 1: a kid, and then they move away from it and
48:02
Speaker 1: somehow come back to that same thing, like whatever you
48:04
Speaker 1: did your book report on in sixth grade is who
48:06
Speaker 1: you are? I do a pretty smart question, so we
48:08
Speaker 1: have a card deck because we're not in the same room.
48:11
Speaker 1: Just let me know when I should stop. Okay, right there, Okay, oh,
48:17
Speaker 1: this is a perfect one. What is the coolest, most
48:21
Speaker 1: unique or important skill you've learned from your job?
48:23
Speaker 3: Coolest most important unique skill I've learnedrom my job probably was,
48:29
Speaker 3: oh speaking, you know, I used to be because I
48:34
Speaker 3: tend to really be a giant nerd and because when
48:36
Speaker 3: I was younger, I you know, you can't tell right now,
48:39
Speaker 3: but I'm super small. I've always been really small, and
48:42
Speaker 3: you know, most of my life I'm like not even
48:44
Speaker 3: five four, and most of my life have been out
48:46
Speaker 3: you know, going one hundred pounds barely soaking wet, and
48:49
Speaker 3: I had a fairly high voice, and so I was
48:51
Speaker 3: always whenever I would answer questions in class, you know,
48:54
Speaker 3: inevitably there'd be people too, the boys making fun of me,
48:57
Speaker 3: you know, squeak speak squeak, and so I, you know,
49:01
Speaker 3: wasn't somebody who would automatically put myself out there or
49:05
Speaker 3: put my opinions out there for scrutiny and for judgment.
49:09
Speaker 3: And I always was worried that my voice would sound high,
49:11
Speaker 3: or that I would sound dumb, or you know, that
49:14
Speaker 3: that kind of abiding insecurity that you develop in adolescence.
49:18
Speaker 3: And then suddenly here you are at thirty, going why
49:20
Speaker 3: am I still afraid of this? And then you know,
49:22
Speaker 3: being and running war child all of a sudden. You know,
49:25
Speaker 3: when you create this organization, people look to you for leadership,
49:28
Speaker 3: and people look for my expertise, not just on paper,
49:32
Speaker 3: but in person. And you know, so that has really
49:35
Speaker 3: forced me to confront a lot of my fears. I
49:39
Speaker 3: you know the fact that I even did a ted talk.
49:41
Speaker 3: I mean, to be fair, most of the time that
49:43
Speaker 3: I was up there, I felt like I was just
49:44
Speaker 3: going to vomit all over myself. You know, it's it's
49:49
Speaker 3: a skill that I've acquired that. You know, if I
49:52
Speaker 3: was to ask my twenty one year old self, if
49:54
Speaker 3: I ever thought that I would be speaking to large
49:56
Speaker 3: audiences like that, I would have said, are you out
49:58
Speaker 3: of your mind? No way, no way would I do that.
50:04
Speaker 1: This is the last question that I ask everybody. What
50:06
Speaker 1: is the smartest decision you've ever made?
50:09
Speaker 3: Meeting and marrying my husband?
50:10
Speaker 1: Wow?
50:12
Speaker 2: Did you meet through work?
50:14
Speaker 3: We met through medical schoo well, through a McMaster the university,
50:17
Speaker 3: went to through medical school and then yeah, and then
50:19
Speaker 3: we were both we both moved to the UK together
50:22
Speaker 3: while I was doing my postgrad work and yeah, no,
50:26
Speaker 3: he we met and I had the scholarship opportunity to
50:29
Speaker 3: go to the UK as I was graduating from medical
50:31
Speaker 3: school and he I said to him, look, I you know,
50:35
Speaker 3: I love you. I don't want to leave if this
50:38
Speaker 3: means our relationship is going to be over. And he said,
50:41
Speaker 3: I love you, I'm coming with you. Take it, let's go,
50:44
Speaker 3: and you know, and that was it. We've been together
50:47
Speaker 3: for twenty seven.
50:49
Speaker 2: Years, so that's awesome.
50:52
Speaker 3: He's a great human. Thank you, Thank you so much.
51:23
Speaker 1: All Right, today is a good day. To have a
51:25
Speaker 1: good day. I'll see you next week,