Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 260. #AMA (Ask Me Anything) Fridays: The Overhead Myth - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Mallory Erickson

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260. #AMA (Ask Me Anything) Fridays: The Overhead Myth - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Mallory Erickson · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Today's episode is sponsored by feather feather provides digital marketing tools and strategies for nonprofits of all shapes and sizes, including the Humane Society of North Central Florida. Stick around for the break to hear how feather power their $300 digital ad campaign that raised nearly$6,000 In just one day. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:24
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:33
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:42
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community, where Nonprofit Professionals, philanthropist world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:52
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started.
• 0:55
  Unknown: Hey, Becky. Hey, John.
• 0:55
  Unknown: We're about to mix it up today.
• 0:59
  Jonathan McCoy: Like we're back with ama Fridays, but it's also a really special week because it's really ama Fridays with friends. We have a special guest joining us today. You know her she's come on the podcast. This is your third or fourth time.
• 1:11
  Jonathan McCoy: Mallory Erickson is with us. And if you don't know Mallory, go find Mallory like right now Mallory erickson.com. Yes, go to her website, download her podcast what the fundraising.
• 1:23
  Jonathan McCoy: But we brought her in because of all of our friends. And you know, we've gotten to meet some amazing people across the industry. Certain friends like our true disruptors that what they're saying, when they talk we lean in when they give frameworks and wisdom like we pay attention and write them down and try to implement them.
• 1:37
  Jonathan McCoy: And then we text them when we forget them. And they help us.
• 1:39
  Jonathan McCoy: And that's Mallory to our company. And so we wanted to bring you in because we got an incredible voicemail, and we can't wait to play it for you because we want to dig in and go deep. And we're gonna go deep with our friend Mel because she's so smart and so wise and all the things.
• 1:54
  Becky Endicott: The other reason we love Mallory is because she is entirely authentic, she is always transparent. She her moral compass points north. And there's just no selfish qualities in her at all. And so when we work together, there's just such an uplift to the people around her. And it's that kind of dignity. And that kind of inclusivity that really gives rise to not just us, but everybody around us. And so Mallory is just frickin wise.
• 2:21
  Becky Endicott: And she doesn't just say pontificate. She's got stats, she's got lived experience, we all three had been in the trenches of working and leading nonprofit organizations. And so the thing we're about to cover today, I'm gonna guess that 85 to 99% of our audience has heard about or thought about wrestles with. So before we get into it, hi, Mallory. Welcome back to mom's kitchen table. We're so excited. You're here.
• 2:51
  Mallory Erickson: Oh my god, you guys, that was the most generous introduction ever. I just wrote down in 60 years have Becky and John do eulogy. Know I'm really you're so generous. And you know how much I love you guys. But yeah, I'm so excited and so grateful to be having this conversation with you guys. And you know how much I love you.
• 3:11
  Mallory Erickson: And I'm just always cheering on your work. And the way you've brought together this community in such a short amount of time is just wild. And I'm just so excited to be a part of it.
• 3:23
  Jonathan McCoy: Tear Thank you, oh, my gosh, you know, we get this really cool voicemail. And if you haven't checked it out yet go to speak pipe.com/, we're for good. You can literally leave us a voice memo from anywhere. And it sounds amazingly crystal clear. I want you to pay attention to that too. But we never know what we're going to get in these come in. And this one just like struck a chord because like Becky said, it's so relatable in so many of the organizations that we've found ourselves in, and it's going to open up a lot of topics. And so I'm just going to play it and then we can dive in because there's a lot to unpack today. So here we go.
• 3:53
  Unknown: Hey, John, and Becky, this is Taylor. I'm calling from California. I am so excited to have open to this two way communication. I have loved listening to you all. But I've been catching myself talking back to you asking you questions. So I'm really excited for this platform. So my question stems from your conversation with Adam. Earlier this week, you all were having a really important conversation about innovation in the nonprofit sector. And I know there are oftentimes things internally that won't organization back like leadership being the tip of the iceberg. But I feel like it's more often than not starting at the funder level. So way beyond the walls of the organization itself. So what do we do about the watchdogs who have created this culture of overhead is bad, and foundations other grantors that had created fiery hoops to jump through paperwork and all these things that bogged down and activation. And this is really stemming to from Dan politis book and terrible also in meetings book called Lean impact. I'm really passionate about this as a nonprofit coach, because I'm pouring into leaders getting them really excited about innovation, but then they're truly unable to execute and sometimes Guess this is lack of capacity. But oftentimes it's a lack of permission. But this is keeping us from actually meeting these really important needs, retaining and recruiting talent. And the list just goes on and on and on. So this feels like a massive task at hand. So how can we take bite sized pieces out of this problem?
• 5:18
  Unknown: Thanks, guys. Whoa,
• 5:20
  Jonathan McCoy: yeah, mic drop, right. So
• 5:24
  Becky Endicott: down the gauntlet. And by the way, Taylor just got her CFRE. So congrats, Taylor, we're super proud of you for pouring into your continuing education. But she went there with the 300 pound gorilla in the room. And we are so psyched to address it right between the eyes and talk about it today.
• 5:43
  Jonathan McCoy: So I think we have to break this into some chunks, because there's a lot of things there. So let me kind of circle back. From an overview standpoint, we want to break up the conversation into four segments. And the first is let's talk about some of the historical narratives that are in place some of the power dynamics, and just this general overhead myth that we face all the time. And the second is going to be organizational leadership, how do we foster this culture of innovation that we all want, but some seem to have it and some can never seem to make it magnetic at their organization. And then three, we want to figure out how to start these conversations at the funder level, and go beyond the walls of the organization. And then we're going to end with just moving from inspiration to activation in regards to innovation. And you know, we always want to give you a one good thing, something that you can actually apply today. So all right, y'all, this is gonna be so good. You ready to jump in? I am
• 6:32
  Becky Endicott: so ready Mallory. I know this is one of your favorite topics. And I want to give just our listeners if you're new to being introduced to Mallory Mallory has an incredible program called Power partners. And it is please go check it out. It is probably the most revolutionary fundraising program I have ever seen to get you one out of your head to break up and dispel these power dynamics and to get you fundraising with confidence and knowing exactly who you are. And I know this is one of your favorite topics. So I'm going to like pitch it to you now. I mean, when we start in with the overhead myth, talk to me about your thoughts, because I just want to say I am thinking back on my 20 year journey in fundraising and how many times I had a donor or someone say to me, okay, but I want 100% of my gift to go to the cause to the to the person. Talk about your experience with this as well.
• 7:33
  Mallory Erickson: Yeah, I mean, I have never met a fundraiser who has not had that experience.
• 7:36
  Mallory Erickson: But I do also believe that at the like most basic level, the funders that only really sort of follow through with that all the way to the end, or where there isn't the opportunity to have a different conversation, or the foundations and what's super interesting to me. So when I think about we could spend the entire episode talking about the history of the nonprofit sector.
• 7:58
  Mallory Erickson: But if we think about, you know, just like really quickly, that historical narrative of like volunteerism and foundation funding, and everyone operating as a volunteer, right, so for a long time, 100% was going directly to the program, it was a different kind of model of how the whole sector was working for a long time until it became you know, what we now know it to be today. And what's super interesting to me about that is that today are like in 2020, I think it was something like 19 20% of all giving was foundations. So to me, this is actually a little bit of like an 8020 problem. We have 20% of the of the funding actually restricting their funding, but it's impacting 80% of the way we behave with funders, my mind is blown. And it really strikes me her use of the word permission, because my question to that as a coach would be permission from who permission from your funders permission from your board. And underneath all of that, is it really permission for yourself?
• 9:05
  Mallory Erickson: permission for yourself to ask a harder question of someone permission of yourself to potentially have a donor not be super, like appeased in every moment of a conversation permission to not be liked to get permission to not be for everyone? I think like a lot of the myths of the sector related to overhead are also myths related to like us as people.
• 9:33
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, and this is why Mallory every the way you coach is not been broadband in the sector because you know, took us 15 years of development to never have those conversations about what's going on mentally. What are my personal beliefs that are maybe holding back and I think you bring up a really solid point there because we have to start with that before we can go forward and the lens I'm going to keep throwing on this conversation is why do we keep you know all of our so many of our discussions come back to why are there why walls between nonprofit for profit and social impact organizations or whatever the fancy words are now, like, why do we treat them in different categories so differently, you would never hold a business that you're investing to on their expense sheet, you know, people or invest in businesses that have been losing money for decades, that have this long tail effect that they think you're going to be really successful? Where's that ingenuity? Where is that optimism, when it's tied to a, quote, nonprofit, you know, and it really is holding us back, you got to think it's holding us back in such huge ways because of those limiting beliefs. And so I'm so thankful you started there. And
• 10:37
  Becky Endicott: I also just add to that, that the word permission was the thing that stuck out to me as well. And I just have to say, Taylor, that I have felt that word so acutely, specifically, as it relates to this topic, because, you know, we're in a scarcity industry.
• 10:51
  Becky Endicott: And we had been wired to be scarce, you know, scarcity minded. And so I think many of us even maybe perhaps the bravest and most tenured among us, still have trepidation about speaking up on this topic, because it's so taboo. But the thing is, is in what we're going to do today is we're going to unpack some of the effects of this type of behavior, there are financial effects, there are mental health effects, there are scaling effects, the power dynamic is is just mind blowing.
• 11:28
  Becky Endicott: And so, yeah, I want to dive a little bit into like, what are what is the overhead myth, I mean, in for us, it's really about these ideals and structures, again, that have been hardwired into us that are so counterproductive to uplifting the missions we serve.
• 11:48
  Becky Endicott: So if you've ever heard the term overhead ratios, it's really talking about the amount of money a nonprofit spends on its mission, versus the money that it spends on overhead cost, overhead costs, could be employee salaries, they could be administrative costs, rent, it could be your tent, at your golf tournament, whatever it is, and there is just sort of underlying unspoken understanding that donors are going to expect charities to maintain a very low overhead like, and perhaps that that base is around maybe 25% of total expenditures, you know, we can't go above that total. And in nonprofits who do are criticized for high overhead costs, but that is a very limiting belief. And I would love to get now you're in John's thoughts on what that is actually done systemically to contribute to this overhead myth? Yeah, and
• 12:39
  Mallory Erickson: one thing I'll say really quickly, and this is probably where I should have started is that like, our fears around this make perfect sense.
• 12:44
  Mallory Erickson: Like, because of the ways that the sector was sort of born, where it came from, because of the media, like when we see I've been taking cut, you know, on my phone videos of TV shows, anytime fundraising has talked about, and it's incredible to see this narrative play out all the time in pop culture, just these tiny little clips and shows or movies where somebody says, well, that's just gonna go to your salary. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's like embedded in every this, you know, we've been seeing this Ukraine crisis and the ways that people have been expressing generosity via airbnb.org and etsy.com. And if you read the comments below, so many of them are about exactly this, I know the money is going to a person in Ukraine, I know the money's not going. So like we have a lot of narrative work to do as a sector. And so I just want to say, for anyone who's feeling this, it makes perfect sense that you're feeling that way. And I think what we want to talk about is, particularly when it comes to, I think, major donors, corporate sponsors, and just the way you phrase your narrative in general, that you do have more control than you think over what your community thinks about this ratio in relationship to your organization, and the work that you're doing. So I just sort of want to back up for a second and maybe say that, I mean,
• 14:06
  Jonathan McCoy: and I would just, you know, she brought up Dan, Pilates. Taylor, we love you know, Dan's done a lot of really industry shifting work.
• 14:11
  Jonathan McCoy: And people have watched his TED Talk that have no affiliation with nonprofits. So he really has helped open up some of these conversations. So I appreciate that, that he's done. But when he came on our show, he was talking about, you know, Apple as an organization, like, are they doing good in the world? Or like, yeah, kind of, you know, because it's almost like it's coming from this context of like, there's nonprofit that's going to save the world. And there's businesses over here that is trying to make money.
• 14:36
  Jonathan McCoy: And we have to like shift away from that. I mean, they've put a smartphone in everybody's pocket. I think of the conversation with Charlie Grosso, who just was on the podcast a couple of weeks ago working with refugees from the Syrian crisis, and saying, like, they don't understand the power they have in their pocket, they have a smartphone and there's so much possibility. So how are we putting ourselves on a different pedestal than Apple and holding ourselves a different accountability and all these I have things like it's just messed up. And I love that you brought up the media as part of that Mallory because I think it is coming at us from all angles.
• 15:07
  Becky Endicott: And I just want to say here and now there's hope. There is always hope. And it seems like a very big mountain to climb. And I believe that it is. And I'm so glad we're talking about Dan Pilates.
• 15:17
  Becky Endicott: If you've not watched Dan Pilates TED talk, we will put it in the show notes. But I just think this is important because there is hope, and that is powered by you. And it's powered by beginning to socialize and have these conversations, because the reality is, is that people don't know what they don't know. And if you look at a donor and say, actually, that kind of question leads to a little of a starvation cycle, we're nonprofits are limiting their innovation. It doesn't give them the resources they need to help them grow. It keeps my salary low. It has us working multiple hats. And so we have to start lifting these conversations. We'll work that into some more narrative. But I want to transition sort of out of overhead myth and I want to get into organizational leadership. Taylor asked a great question about, you know, what happens if leadership is holding back innovation. And she also mentioned Adam Coronas episode, which was episode 238, Adam was the founder of Movember. And he just had this incredible Lightning in a Bottle idea that of Movember that just ended up taking off. And Adam was the one that looked at us, and said, there are no stupid ideas. But it's far more than that. We need to be creating a culture of entrepreneurship and innovation where people can try stuff. So we really need our leaders to rise and rally and advocate for cultures of innovation. And John and Mallory, I'd love for you to jump in and talk to me parts about this, even as it relates to power dynamics,
• 16:56
  Jonathan McCoy: just spending years within nonprofit, I'll say I think innovation is stymied, because of our KPIs. And if I may just go off about KPIs I was ranting about this on
• 17:06
  Becky Endicott: LinkedIn, John goes off, it happens like three times a year, we're ready,
• 17:09
  Jonathan McCoy: because, of course, about accountability and having goals. I mean, I think you can't get motivated without some of those things in place.
• 17:14
  Jonathan McCoy: But I think when they are attached to the wrong things, you can miss the forest for the trees, and you can end up spinning yours. And I'm pointing to myself, chasing the wrong metrics to appease whatever scorecard you're being graded against. And so in this case, you know, when I lead annual giving, for years, at the end of the day, it was $1 goal. And the problem is, is that if you're trying to create this, you know, sustainable source of donors that are giving in a, you know, repeatable fashion, it's, it's great that the money is going to be there. But it's more about building this community and building the structure and building the infrastructure to support a lot of donors coming together. And so retention is actually the most important thing that I would want to see in having the freedom to go chase that and let's work on our retention problem, why are people leaving us, but as an annual giving director, I was tasked with chasing the dollar goal. And so what that did is it shifted my strategy, and it shifted my ability to innovate or spin time innovating around growing retention, even if it meant slowing the dollars that, you know, we're gonna raise short term for a bigger payoff.
• 18:22
  Jonathan McCoy: And I just think that is one small example of a little annual giving director in Oklahoma City that, you know, piqued because of that, and I'm a creative person, I'm an innovative person, if I get it haven't free way to really develop some ideas, like how much better have been placed with the organization be if we would have spent that time to develop this kind of infrastructure around the right metrics. So that's where my headspace goes,
• 18:48
  Mallory Erickson: I'm standing on a chair clapping. I mean, I think like I say to organizations all the time, don't tell me what you care about. Show me what you track.
• 18:56
  Mallory Erickson: Because I think at the end of the day, what you're saying is so critical. I think we do a little bit too much lip service in this sector. We do a little bit too much surface level, appeasing our hearts and minds momentarily. And a lot of and we would really benefit from getting super curious and taking a step back and saying, Okay, what's the point? I think organizations that have done innovation bet like more effectively, perhaps have been more invested in their vision as an organization like why are we here in the first place? What are we doing? Is all is money for the sake of money? The point? Is that the point is that why we're here because I think if you can keep with your board with your staff members, if you can keep coming back to like, what, what's the point? Why are we here? Why are we doing this?
• 19:47
  Mallory Erickson: Why are we tracking that? Why are we making that decision? How does it feel why do we want to work with that foundation, really, why do we work want to work with that foundation? Not we need money in that scarcity.
• 20:02
  Mallory Erickson: But why? Why do we want to do that? And literally, if we just put a layer of curiosity on everything we were doing, I think we just have a huge moment of like,
• 20:13
  Jonathan McCoy: Oh, yeah. Hey, friends, this episode is presented by virtuous and they just happened to be one of our favorite companies. Let me tell you why. You know, we believe everyone matters. And we've witnessed the greatest philanthropic movements happen when you see and activate donors at every level. And here's the thing, virtuous created a fundraising platform to help you do just that. It's much more than a nonprofit CRM. Virtuous is committed to helping charities reimagine generosity through responsive fundraising, which is simply putting the donor at the center of fundraising, growing giving through personalized donor journeys, and by helping you respond to the needs of every individual. We love it because this approach builds trust and loyalty through personalized engagement. Some, like virtuous may be a fit for your organization. Learn more today and virtuous.org or follow the link in our show.
• 21:40
  Becky Endicott: Hey, friends, are you ready to take your digital engagement to the next level, but kind of feel stuck about where to start? Let us introduce you to feather feathers, an amazing tech startup focused on making nonprofit outreach more impactful by connecting you to your audience wherever they are online, from fundraising to program awareness, they've got you covered. And rather than telling you we just wanted to show you for years, the Humane Society of North Central Florida has participated in a local online giving day called the amazing give. It's a competitive landscape for donations. So in 2021, the Humane Society knew they needed to stand out in order to maximize donations for$300 in ad spend their retargeting ads brought 119 visitors to their amazing give donation page and generated nearly $6,000 in donations in just one day. With feather a small amount of ad spend can go a long way, learn more about their solutions for nonprofits@feather.co. That's feather without the last e.co.
• 22:35
  Becky Endicott: Now let's get back to this amazing conversation.
• 22:44
  Jonathan McCoy: And just to round out with a few tips, I mean, if you're wanting to drive innovation in your area, here's just kind of an approach that I think really works well. But start with do your research, you know, understand what's happening. Like Mallory says being curious is a really great place to start. I really think doing your research and figure out what is this one thing for me, it would have been that KPI to have that conversation around that which was going to trickle down impact a lot more pieces that make the case you know, your leadership is going to be considering a lot of different angles about this, you want to come in with really a fleshed out case for not only how it's going to impact the work, but the team like what is it going to do to morale? Is it going to do to your availability? What's it going to do to what are your staff tension? Yeah, but you want to be able to flush that out so they can see the value as you present it because the worst place you can come is just like from a place of complaining at least me as a manager. That's like my biggest trigger. Like I don't like just shins. Yeah, you want to come with a solution and a plan. And it makes it an easy yes. To be able to say, hey, yeah, this makes sense. There's a business case behind it. Let's try this out, you know, and so I think that's a way that we have found traction in our own places. I'd love for you to jump into math as you coach people.
• 23:54
  Mallory Erickson: Yeah, there's maybe two little things I would add to that. One is I really love the concept of one degree shifts. I think sometimes we feel like there needs to be like 180 degree change, or we're stuck. And I think the reality is that one degree shifts can be really impactful. And so depending on the level of resistance of your support staff, your board, just having that awareness to say, okay, look, this is ultimately where I hope we go. But how do we start with a one degree shift like and what does that look like? And just being cognizant of the fact that change is hard, people are scared of change. It's a very normal human thing, you know, and so the one degree shift can be a little bit like easier to digest in that in that way. The other thing I would say is, I would just set you know, put a pin in the curiosity piece, again, when you're in conversations with your board, when you're in conversations with your staff, to just ask why, like, if somebody pushes back, like, tell me more about that, like, I'd love to hear more about what you're worried about their, you know, tell me what are some red flags you see in this and I think that does two things. One, it helps you sort of better prepare the case that you're making, but it also opens it up to be a community decision and having people feel heard and feeling like they're weighing in and getting more buy in. And I think it's just it's just really important because I think sometimes when we put too much prep into whatever we're presenting to our board our staff, then we're so like adamant about being right. And then we go like super into right mode. And it's like it's not about right or wrong? It's about like, what would it take for this group to make this shift?
• 25:39
  Mallory Erickson: What would it take and what's holding some folks back and just giving everyone that space to kind of CO create it with you, I think is a really helpful thing to consider.
• 25:49
  Becky Endicott: co creation is so smart. And I love the word curiosity. And I actually think the 1% shift is a one good thing. It is an awesome one good thing, even just from a mindset perspective. And before we transition to our next one, I just want to make sure that we've answered Taylor's question here, because you are the queen of power dynamics. And I think Taylor's point is a good one is if you're feeling stifled by your leadership at your administration, and feeling unsupported in sort of pushing that innovation message forward, what what kind of counsel would you give to individuals that are really facing that Mallory?
• 26:27
  Mallory Erickson: Yeah, I would say that, you know, one thing that can be helpful to think about here is sort of the science of influence, which is that in any perceived power dynamic relationship, the person with more Pat with more perceived power has more influence, and they do not know how much more influence they have. So from their position, they might feel like they actually tend to the person in a more powerful position tends to overestimate the other person's agency and advocacy. And the person in a lower powered position really overestimates kind of the strong decision making of the person and more power. So what happens then is often this real missed opportunity for the person to maybe get curious with their boss or their board, because they're like, Oh, well, they said that thing. So they must really mean it. And there must be no opportunity for me to have a conversation about it. Whereas the board member, the boss is thinking, well, they'll push back if that doesn't feel good, right? They'll tell me if the if I'm not going to support it. So there's like this whole, and I'm not saying that there aren't toxic work environments, there are, but I would say that probably 80% of the time, 85% of the time, there's space in there to to take a step back and say, and this is another place where you can give yourself permission and ask for permission. Hey, I'd love to open up a conversation about something that hasn't been feeling great. When would be the best time for us to do that.
• 28:02
  Mallory Erickson: Would it be helpful if I sent you some of my thinking ahead of time, right? So I really think this is where like, we pull in all of those like great EQ strategies, and we just lean back on the relationship, and we see what's available to navigate. They're
• 28:17
  Jonathan McCoy: so brilliant.
• 28:18
  Becky Endicott: What I think people are probably asking themselves is how do I begin to start having this conversation, which is probably going to be an uncomfortable or maybe a difficult conversation with funders and I now I know, you're probably chomping at the bit to talk about this, because you've done a lot of work in this space. So what would be your suggestion of a great place to start?
• 28:42
  Mallory Erickson: Well, I would say that what I just shared about the influence piece, and this is we on what the fundraising we did a two part series with Vanessa bonds, who wrote you have more influence than you think one part is about funder influence. The other is about donor influence. And so I would say that this is actually the science of influence comes into play here too, because a lot of times a funder will say something like, oh, well, you know, I'd love to support you buying a new truck. And we're like, yes, truck, we don't need truck, but they want to give us a truck. So like, we're gonna get another truck, we're gonna make it work. We're gonna make it work. And like that, for the thunder. They were saying sort of like a flippant comment of like an idea. They know a tiny fraction of what your organization does. They just picked an idea based on that tiny little fraction that they know. But we hear it and we're like, it's what they want. And we don't even open up that conversation. We don't even ask a question like, so it's so interesting to me that you brought up the truck. Tell me a little bit about what you see the truck doing in terms of the ultimate impact of the organization. You know, what, what is the truck like mean for you? What does that demonstrate about the work that we're doing?
• 29:52
  Mallory Erickson: What gets you excited about that, and really facilitating a conversation with the funder around what their core desire is, because their core desire is not a truck. Their core desire is what they believe the truck is going to do. Their core desire is not a building. Their core desire is not a playground, their core desire is actually not any of that restricted funding. Their core desire is what they believe that restricted funding is going to do. And when we start to understand that and we start to open up that conversation, then we have an incredible opportunity to share what's actually going to make that impact. And we get to frame that however we want to and I would say that in my opinion In like 50 to 75% of what we even call overhead sexually still program outputs, like direct impact on program outlook. somebody the other day was like this is operating like, No, it's not 100% of those activities are your program 100% Or your program. And so I would say even for like, foundation funders, grant funders who have a more rigid funding system around operating costs, they're still actually way more wiggle room in there often than we realize, but we don't know it because we don't give them permission to talk further about what they want. We don't give ourselves permission to open up a deeper conversation, we're so afraid to lose the money. And we just want the win. And we want the money at all costs, that we end up pulling ourselves in all these different directions. And I think we have more influence than we think. And it's really time for us to flex that.
• 31:30
  Jonathan McCoy: Mallory, Erickson, this conversation, I do think like, it's easier to go in with this like box that we're asking for, as opposed to sit and truly get to know somebody and truly thread together, what their longing or their desire, what they really would get lit up to do. And I realized we've been in podcasting in the last like, Gosh, 20 months, and it's kind of taken over my the way I view the world. But I think it's the same way in that when we go into an interview, I can think of how I think it's gonna go. I mean, we've done the research, I've read their Forbes articles, I've done these things, I think that's where it's gonna go. But how many times Becky is that?
• 32:06
  Jonathan McCoy: Like, they're doing their intro, and we hear a piece of their story. And because that's their story is the thread that ties everything together. And it's like, those moments are magic, and you got to just you have to work for it. And you can't follow a robotic strategy. You have to be present, you have to be genuinely curious and genuinely want the best for them and the best for the funders of your program and just trusting that it's gonna work, you know, and it's so much of a better place. So, oh, my goodness, this is this is so good. Thank you.
• 32:38
  Becky Endicott: Yeah, I need to respond as well. But I also want to say Mallory's podcast what the fundraising she mentioned, we're gonna drop that episode in the show notes. If you are loving what Mallory is saying, please go over, hit subscribe, what the fundraising because it is mind blowing conversations like this. And I will be checking that one out, because I missed it. But I think your example Valerie is really profound. And it makes me kind of want to get behind every one of our listeners and just like rub their shoulders and pump them up. Knowing that you have the opportunity, you have the responsibility. Nay, I think you have just this incredible door open to change the trajectory of a donor gift by simply asking questions. And that friends, is really why we're here is to ask questions. To get to the heart of that we are connectors, we are the bridges between this funding and these world issues.
• 33:39
  Becky Endicott: And it is incumbent upon us to give the donor they deserve to hear the full arc of what we're experiencing how that gift will impact us what the real need is.
• 33:48
  Becky Endicott: And so I want to tell you, you can do this. And the more conversations you have bravery is a muscle, you know, the more that we can boldly have those conversations, you will get more empowered, you will feel more empowered, you will understand, you know what the problem is you will I have a feeling it may feed your soul to have a donor say, Wow, they really know what's going on here. They care about me, they want to have the longest term effect to my gift.
• 34:20
  Becky Endicott: This is somebody I want to partner with long time. So I actually think that it could help you scale and taping your relationship, if you can find the boldness to try this out.
• 34:31
  Becky Endicott: And I think something that
• 34:32
  Mallory Erickson: nobody said, I'm curious what you guys think about this, but I feel like that's because everything I was told as a fundraiser was that money was the only thing of value in every moment. And so when we think that the power dynamic is always going to feel the way that it does where the person of value is the person with the money, the person of with power is the one with the money. But money is not the only thing of value at that table.
• 34:58
  Mallory Erickson: And that is just a real limiting belief that's so baked into scarcity mindset. And I think once we really recognize what we are offering what we are bringing to the table, it can really shift those things. I think another thing you said that is just so important, I just sort of want to double click on is that like sort of alignment piece right on my webinar with power partners I talked about the like car salesperson like why do car salespeople make us so uncomfortable? Like they make us they make it like why do we do all of our research and we know exactly what car we want before we go into by car right? Like we don't walk in and like try To learn what car we want from a car salesperson, no way, that'd be crazy. Why? Because we believe that the car salesperson wants to sell us the car, whether or not it's the right car. For us. That's what makes us uncomfortable. And so when a funder feels that way, when a funder feels like we want their money, whether or not it's the right investment for them, it feels exactly the same way. And if we want to feel different, we have to be looking for actual alignment, we have to be ready to say, You know what, maybe that's not the fit, then is what you're really interested, then that's okay. But when we start to do that, we open up the potential for so much more funding for our organization, because alignment becomes super clear. And it also means it's clear when someone isn't aligned. And that's a gift to us
• 36:25
  Becky Endicott: to. yes to every single bit of that. And again, what we are saying is so philosophical, it is so mindset.
• 36:35
  Becky Endicott: And this is something that you're going to have to embrace.
• 36:39
  Becky Endicott: And we want you to feel empowered to do that. One thing I did want to lift in terms of just this breaking this narrative, we had a really great conversation with Travis being on the podcast, it was episode 142, for anyone. And it's really about how do you have difficult conversations around your narrative around power dynamics?
• 36:57
  Becky Endicott: Travis specifically talks about how do we break the hero victim narrative. So he talks a lot about what Mallory just said, number one, align your expectations. His second step is dignify the engagement. And the third one is how do you share that story? So there's three quick actionable things, go back to that episode, if you'd like some more pump up music, some work counselor to get you going.
• 37:24
  Jonathan McCoy: He even like jogging my memory of like he even said that at Meijer, they put together this document that says, This is who we are, this is how we like to engage. And right up front, this is what it's all about. And he said, It's not meant to be a punch in the face. It's just like, hey, this is an FYI. It's who we are.
• 37:38
  Jonathan McCoy: It's how we engage. And it's what drives us. You gotta go back and listen, because he's so driven and so focused on the one that he is helping and serving and making sure that they're dignified in the process that it doesn't even feel bad, because that's your priority.
• 37:54
  Becky Endicott: Mallory, I want to play a little bit of devil's advocate and get your thought on something. So we have nonprofits out there who really want to try this innovation, they really want to dive into it. They're committed to it. But what do they say when a funder comes back to them? And questions, the sort of rankings? You know, we all know, these organizations and associations that track nonprofits. And you know, they're looking at things like overhead, talk a little bit about how you would suggest people should respond to that.
• 38:24
  Mallory Erickson: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really good question. And I think this is also where it's so important to recognize that our beliefs and our thoughts about this are rooted in old systems of doing things and old benchmarks. And, and so I think one of the things is, is to also recognize that we get to control a narrative around our own organization. And so I have said before very publicly, that if I was running an organization, where I got a bronze something because I was paying my staff a bloated salary, or because I was investing in marketing or because I was investing in in, you know, innovation in certain ways. So that the overhead cost was not the ratio, that that tracking system desired from a nonprofit for profit, that I would put that on the homepage of my website. And I would be saying, I would be saying, you know, that we are proud to have this bronze medal for this, because what we care about is X, Y, and Z. And we're really proud of the way that our organization takes risk. We're really proud of their organization invest in innovation, we're really proud of the way we pay and support our staff members, we see the value in these things, and that we are here to eradicate a problem not to perform based on the status quo. I think we need to own it, and I recognize how scary it is. And I think this is where what's the one that you know, maybe you're not gonna put on your homepage today. But like, what's the one degree shift? Like? How can you create a statement like that, perhaps with your board, that's where I'd start or create a statement like that with your staff start to recognize that this isn't a bad score. This is a score based on a system that does not align with our values. That's what it is. And so actually, having a bronze in this value system is great for us, because it's not our value system. And that's also about knowing who you are, knowing what you stand for and knowing what you're trying to do. It made me think about sometimes when we've seen in really like public races or something like that the Olympia So you know, we see someone fall and get hurt. And we watch someone go and help them across the finish line. And it's like they gave up their first place or their second place or whatever. But who they were in that moment was like, then being deep in their integrity as a person. And to me, that's what this conversation is also about is like, it's not just about getting the gold, it's not just about getting first place. It's like, who are we? And like, who are we trying to be. And if we are bringing other people along for the ride in a healthy way that's ultimately addressing these issues, then we're the person who picks up the other runner and walks across the finish line with them. And I think that's who we ultimately want to be chills.
• 41:19
  Becky Endicott: Say, I absolutely love that analogy.
• 41:22
  Jonathan McCoy: Let's kind of talk about activation, you know, we don't want to just have these discussions and not feel like what's next. And so I'll throw mine out. But I'm forewarning you, so you're gonna have to come up with something active to but I think there's a lot of mindset work. And I think we all have to realize that we're all on our own journey. And so to plug in and really focus on developing it for yourself.
• 41:43
  Jonathan McCoy: We've we've curated 10 of some episodes to get you started. And Mallory came on earlier this season. Okay, confessional, I've gone back and listened to it like three times to get me in the right mindset. So I'm going to drop that episode, but also how to cultivate a bravery mindset. And then we've talked about today to have these kinds of big brave conversations. So we're going to curate a little mini playlist for you. But that's something you can do today, like curator them up and dive in.
• 42:07
  Becky Endicott: Okay, mine, you know, it'll be surprised that there's some storytelling in this, but I would say, really do some self assessment about where you where you are with this issue about overhead. How is this affected you personally?
• 42:21
  Becky Endicott: How has it affected the number of hours that you put in over what was put in your job description, the amount of tasks that you take on over that listed in your job description, talk about how limiting it's been with? Have you gotten a bonus in a while or a salary increase? Talk about how this is helping you innovate? You know, an incredible time to start socializing this conversation, maybe in your evaluation, or your self evaluation with your direct manager is talking about your dreams, talking about the things that you want to do? And how can they help you dive in to innovation? How can they help you with a budget? How can they give you professional development, to pour into it, because an investment in you is an investment in the organization. And I also just want to say overhead is people.
• 43:06
  Becky Endicott: And so when someone says that they don't want to give to overhead, they're saying that they can not get on board with paying the people who are powering the mission. So really do that self assessment and use this as an opportunity to educate funders about the real cost of results. Because I'm going to guess your board members, a lot of them are very successful business people. And they're going to know that you have got to invest in innovation to scale, and nonprofit missions are simply too important not to invest. Now, what about you?
• 43:43
  Mallory Erickson: Yeah, I love all of those. I mean, I think the other thing to recognize is like, where is there the most resistance? And where's the most opportunity? You don't need to listen to this and and think everyone's in alignment, everyone's ready? Can you find one person, one funder, who you feel super aligned with that you feel like you've just been just a little bit more transparent with who you feel like really sees you just a little bit more?
• 44:07
  Mallory Erickson: And how can they be your partner in the first one degree shift?
• 44:12
  Mallory Erickson: You know, when I was leading an organization, I really want to invest in a new CRM system, and everyone was so against it for all the reasons, right? The operating the money, all the stuff. So I went to a funder that I really trusted, and I felt like really appreciated and valued my leadership. And I told her exactly what was happening.
• 44:34
  Mallory Erickson: And I said, I need your help.
• 44:34
  Mallory Erickson: Like, I want your help to do this. And I want you to give me a restricted fund for this. And she was like, you want me to restrict my money? And I was like I do, because I need your help. And I need to flex influence somewhere like me, I'm not being successful with my voice alone. But I know that if we have the funding for this, I'm going to be able to do this project. I secured the money.
• 45:00
  Mallory Erickson: And then of course, that was enough to bring everyone on board. And so sometimes it's just figuring out, okay, like, where does that alignment exist?
• 45:06
  Mallory Erickson: It doesn't have to be everyone.
• 45:10
  Mallory Erickson: But how can you how can you start with just that one,
• 45:13
  Becky Endicott: we need to set a tone for a new modern way of engagement. Our donors can come along, they will want to come along if we can make the case for why this is going to be helped build healthier cultures, build scaling cultures, and build more vibrant culture. So thank you Taylor for giving us this incredible question.
• 45:35
  Becky Endicott: Clearly we have geeked out on it. We would love your feedback.
• 45:39
  Becky Endicott: We're gonna be dropping this in our socials, we would love to hear your experience with it. So just know that we're rooting for you and Mallory totally knocked our socks off for what is this the third or the fourth time on the podcast? Hopefully it's not the last. Thank you
• 45:55
  Mallory Erickson: for having me.
• 45:55
  Mallory Erickson: And thanks for the conversation.
• 45:58
  Jonathan McCoy: Such an honor.
• 45:58
  Jonathan McCoy: So if you want to leave us a question, don't forget, go to speak pipe.com/ We're for good and you can be featured on our next AMA. Thanks so much for being here. Friends, we appreciate you. Thanks for joining us. Today's episode was brought to you by our good friends at office zero. Without zero your nonprofit can do more with a login box. Greet prospects and rabid fans of your mission with authenticity simply make it easier for your team to manage data. There's so much at AUC zero login experience can do visit os zero.org For more info.
• 46:28
  Becky Endicott: If you enjoyed this episode, we know you'll love being part of the we're for good community. It's like our own social network where you can find like minded friends, ask questions, share resources and find inspiration anytime. Sign up today at we're for good.com backslash hello
• 46:44
  Jonathan McCoy: thanks friends