Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 221. Crossover Edition - James Spurgeon and The Texas Baptist Crucible

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221. Crossover Edition - James Spurgeon and The Texas Baptist Crucible · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
Welcome back to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:02
What a wonderful day it is to be in the studio recording with me.
0:07
And old Breticus want to come. And just thank you for
0:10
listening. Thank you for tuning in.
0:12
And we could not do this and would not do this if people
0:16
didn't listen. And so we do want to thank you
0:18
for being a part of the Four Freedom Podcast and what we have
0:22
going on. Thank you for tuning into these
0:25
last several weeks, looking through the Jim Jones stuff and
0:28
the spiritual manipulation. But man, we are excited about
0:32
the future. Brett, we've got a couple of
0:33
weeks before we jump into our summer break summer.
0:37
My wife told me this morning, we've got 23 days of school left
0:41
before school is out for them. And so man, we are right around
0:45
the corner. This morning at the time of
0:47
recording this, I got to go to the local high school and I
0:52
preached a sermon on being changed, looking at the maniac
0:56
of Ghadera and Mark chapter 5 to about 25 teenagers there at the
1:01
public school. They had a Bible club.
1:03
They meet every single week. And so we had a great time
1:06
there. Lots of questions.
1:08
I got to present a little bit about Israel and some some
1:11
teachers were in there, got to to talk to them about some
1:13
stuff. And man, it was just a great
1:15
time just to be in there and sharing the gospel inside of a
1:18
public school. You know, it really meant a lot
1:21
to me coming from public school. And so yeah, it's it's been a
1:25
great couple of weeks and a great time.
1:27
Brett, how are you doing? We we haven't recorded since
1:30
Easter. So how was your Easter?
1:32
How were things or Resurrection Sunday, Happy Easter tar time.
1:36
How was? How was your your time?
1:39
Oh man, everything was good. We had a great Easter, we had a
1:42
great crowd and in the next Sunday we had a really good
1:45
crowd too. So, you know, it's kind of like
1:48
some momentum gain there. You know, it's interesting.
1:51
You tell you said you just talked about Israel a little bit
1:53
and preach the kids. I'll tell you that this week we
1:58
had the Homemakers Association for Mississippi at our church.
2:04
And so it was several, it was this county, several surrounding
2:08
counties. So we had a church full of
2:11
ladies that are part of this homemakers association.
2:13
They volunteered for the state and I was asked to speak at it.
2:18
Oh, that's speak three years ago when I talked about Israel.
2:22
And so I decided to talk about Israel again.
2:24
But was all the new stuff was all the new stuff that had been
2:28
discovered, such as, you know, going up the Pilgrim Rd. and
2:33
the, the salon pool where they had rediscovered that and the,
2:37
the, the jail cell for Paul. We didn't, we didn't get to go
2:42
to that the first time because they had just discovered it.
2:45
And so it was all new discovery. So I didn't give the same talk
2:49
that I did three years ago. But it was a good opportunity.
2:52
And church has been, well, we've had some, some people baptized.
2:56
So the people join the church. And so things are going really
3:00
good down here in Mississippi. I'll tell you what, I've got a
3:03
senior and he said 23 days left of school.
3:06
I've got a senior and he's about to graduate.
3:08
So we just got his, we've homeschooled him since the
3:11
beginning. So he's going to walk in our
3:13
church. We just got his cap and gown and
3:17
diploma and he's winding down. We've got Bible drills today.
3:22
He's on. We're going to be in a couple
3:24
hours. We're going to be going to
3:25
Philadelphia, Ms. for my son's final Bible drill.
3:31
And you know, this part of his life is coming to a close.
3:33
He did really good at the state drill.
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He only got 3 wrong and that's really, really good.
3:40
If he does that again, that might be good enough for
3:42
nationals. But you know, we're going to see
3:46
how that how that goes. Do y'all do Bible drills out
3:49
there? I do not.
3:50
I don't know what Bible drills is my friend.
3:52
Oh, that must be a Mississippi thing tell.
3:55
Me what this is? Bible drills is where they put
4:00
out a sheet and they cycle through year by year.
4:04
They've got a children's sheet and a student sheet and you
4:09
memorize the verses and then they've got a key passages where
4:14
you know, it's the, you say the fall of man and the answer is
4:18
Genesis 3. And they say go.
4:19
You got to turn to Genesis 3. And it's like they give a
4:22
scripture reference and you've got 8 seconds to find the
4:26
scripture reference. And you, they, they teach the
4:30
kids the, the words of the, the books of the Bible.
4:35
And you know, it's all about scripture memorization.
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And so, you know, you stand there, they, they make the call.
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You've got 8 seconds to find the scripture in your Bible.
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And if they call on you, you got to read it.
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And it, it, it's, it's difficult to do 8 seconds is not a lot of
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time. Flip through to flip through and
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find a verse in the Bible. It it's really, really not.
4:59
And you got to know where in the Bible, you know where that verse
5:03
is. And for the younger kids, when
5:06
they call the book, you have to give the book before it and the
5:10
book after it. And so it's just a really cool
5:14
thing. They've done it here since I've
5:16
been here. So my kids have been doing it
5:18
for the past four or five years. And like we're going to the to
5:21
the state tournament today in Philadelphia.
5:25
And if, if they do get past state, they're going to
5:27
national. So we're looking forward to it.
5:31
It's SBC thing. So it's like like the nationals
5:35
would be in like I would guess Nashville.
5:38
I think they've had it there before.
5:39
So it's, it's, it's a really cool thing.
5:42
Is it like a blue-green and red? It says Bible drills and skills.
5:46
Yes, that's it. Blue Lifeway.
5:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen it.
5:51
I looked at it. We were looking at starting
5:53
last, my last church, a Sunday night children's program.
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And so I had bought a sample packet so Our Lady could look at
6:02
it and she didn't like it. So we went something else with
6:06
group or something. But I remember looking at that
6:09
now. I just didn't know it was it was
6:10
that. So yeah, that's awesome.
6:12
I love it. And maybe, yeah, we had a had a
6:14
great Easter as well. Had a wonderful time with
6:17
family. We've got a family member of
6:20
ours in May that's coming, My wife's cousin that's coming.
6:23
She's going to be a missionary to South Africa somewhere over
6:29
in the Middle East, and so she's going to come and present on our
6:33
Women's Day. And so I'm excited about that.
6:36
But yeah, well, Lord's been blessing and been good, man.
6:40
There's been some some crazy stories lately.
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We just got back from vacation, had a wonderful time with our
6:45
family and we are excited about what Lord's doing in our
6:50
families, in our churches. It's always good to hear.
6:53
I heard a story today, Brett, when I was at the high school,
6:56
that guy said that he was, they were tending to church and they
7:00
were about to leave because they had window down to 5 people and
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they were like on the brink of closing and they were, you know,
7:08
they were trying to figure out some type of revitalization.
7:10
And this guy came in from just right down the road here and
7:14
began preaching and accepted the call to be a pastor of five
7:17
people. And he said he, he's been there
7:20
about 3 years now. And he said we're up to 5060
7:23
people. And it's just a blessing to see
7:25
that and to see that that God is still in the reviving business.
7:29
He's still in the revival business.
7:31
And so it's great to see churches get new life and be
7:35
brought back to life. Sometimes God doesn't see fit
7:39
for that, right? Every church in the New
7:41
Testament we can't find today. God's all fit for it to pass
7:45
away, but there are times where it's good to see that revival of
7:49
life. And we just had a church and our
7:51
association closes doors, donated the church property to
7:55
the association. And so we turned around and gave
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it to a recovery ministry that is helping men with addictions
8:02
of pornography and alcohol and drug use and other just, it's
8:09
like almost like a halfway house.
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And so they're going to start having Bible studies in it and
8:14
they had their first one this past week and just excited to
8:17
have their own building. They've been just renting and
8:20
using other random locations. And now they've got a building
8:23
and a fellowship hall they can do classes in.
8:26
And so we're excited about seeing God use that in in a
8:29
mighty way here in our area. Amen, brother.
8:32
That sounds like we just had a recovery, recovery ministry open
8:35
down the road from us. And so that, that that's a
8:38
really cool ministry. I'm glad to have the chance to
8:40
do that. I'll tell you what's getting
8:42
close is Orlando. Man, yeah, got my SeaWorld
8:46
tickets here for our time there. I still have have to buy the the
8:51
universal pass. I'm still like, I can't believe
8:54
I'm going to spend this much money to go to Harry Potter
8:56
world, but I know do it. And so we're going to bite the
9:00
bullet and eat sandwiches for three weeks to to be able to
9:03
make the budget. I know.
9:05
So it, it, it, it's, it's a big ask, but you know, I've never
9:09
had my kids down in Orlando before.
9:11
And so this is might be the only opportunity I have.
9:15
Hey, well, I got it. I'm thinking about it.
9:17
Last year you invited me to the Mississippi Baptist meet up that
9:22
was there. They doing that again or not?
9:25
Yeah, they do it every every every year.
9:28
All right, so last year we didn't do the North Carolina
9:30
battles meet up. They it fell through.
9:33
This year they are guess where they're doing it at Monday night
9:36
at SeaWorld. They've rented the SeaWorld out
9:39
to themselves and we're having a private Penguin tour.
9:43
Some roller coasters are going to be open for us at 9:00.
9:45
We're going to meet and have an ice cream.
9:48
It's Baptist and friends, so I think you guys could sign up if
9:52
y'all wanted to go. I don't know if you guys have
9:54
Monday night. We're having a private
9:55
conversation here. I didn't even think about it
9:57
until just now, so if you want to jump in and go with us,
10:00
that'd be great. OK.
10:02
All right, we'll talk about it. That that'd be cool.
10:04
Yeah. So yeah, Orlando's coming up and
10:08
then we've got our Nicaragua trip.
10:12
And then as as we always mentioned, if you want to go and
10:15
be a supporter of our cigar company that's available for you
10:20
at 1689 Cigars, back slash for Freedom, you can just type in
10:24
for Freedom Cigars and it'll come up.
10:26
And we, we are have four different brands over there and
10:29
experience box, great things going on.
10:32
I'm about to buy some, some new merch for that.
10:36
My wife gave me an idea the other day I'm really excited
10:39
about and so I'm going to buy some of that and have that for
10:42
you to purchase. Just a great little way to
10:45
support the podcast and have a brotherhood of fellowship.
10:49
And so excited about that. I've been asked to write a
10:52
little blog for the website and I may share that blog on here.
10:56
I may read it as a special podcast throughout the summer,
10:59
something that's near and dear to my heart.
11:01
Often people have asked, you know, why do you smoke cigars?
11:04
What's up with that? And so I just sort of put my
11:06
words on the paper of of what that experience is for me and
11:10
what it means for me. And so hopefully you'll get an
11:13
encouragement out of that as we share that here in the next
11:16
coming weeks. But other than that, Brett,
11:18
anything else before we jump into today's episode?
11:21
I think that covers everything. All right, we're having a good
11:24
friend of ours on the show after our intro here in just a second.
11:28
His name, you know him. His name is James Spurgeon.
11:31
He came on several months back and then after he left an
11:35
interview with us, he went and started the Texas Baptist
11:38
Crucible podcast. He was out of Bob Gray there it
11:42
Bob Gray out of in Texas and so he went to Texas Baptist
11:47
College. And so we had a great
11:50
conversation with him talking about where he's at and in with
11:53
the new Scott Gray stuff that came out.
11:56
We talked about that a little bit and how he knew him, how he
11:59
was a little younger than him. Scott Gray was younger than
12:01
James. So we hope you enjoyed this
12:03
podcast episode. Hopefully you'll share it with
12:06
those that are around you. And thank you for tuning in as
12:09
always. And I hope you have a wonderful
12:11
day. Enjoy this interview today.
12:15
For freedom set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
12:18
not for Pharisee. Bracelet the flame.
12:21
Now I'm puffing peace cigars and Victory Justified released.
12:27
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
12:29
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
12:33
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
12:36
I ain't. Saved by dress codes, not by
12:38
what I eat. I'm covered in the
12:40
righteousness, washed from head to feet.
12:42
No tally of tradition. No man made code.
12:45
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
12:47
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise, But my prey
12:50
still ascends Past the legalist cries.
12:53
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
12:55
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
13:09
For freedom He set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
13:13
not for Pharisee grace, Let the flame, Now I'm puffing peace,
13:17
cigars and victory justified release.
13:20
For freedom, he set me free, Not for change, not for guilt, not
13:24
for Pharisee grace Let the flame, Now I'm puffing peace,
13:27
cigars and victory, justified. Released.
13:31
Let grace begin for freedom dead me free, not for change, not for
13:35
guilt, not for Pharisee. Grace, lift the flame now.
13:39
Here are your hosts, James Seyfried and Brett Martin.
13:43
We are excited about having with us today Mr. James Spurgeon, the
13:48
grandson of Charles Spurgeon, the elite Prince of Always a
13:53
pleasure to have you back on the show.
13:55
Mr. Spurgeon, how is life and how are you doing?
13:58
Last time we talked to you, you had shared us about the book
14:02
that you had wrote to the Texas Baptist Crucible.
14:05
I've almost finished reading it. It's over there on my shelf,
14:08
right over there underneath the piece of duct tape.
14:11
And it's been a wonderful stories to read.
14:15
But since then you started, you've actually started the
14:17
podcast, the Texas Baptist Crucible Podcast and put out
14:22
lots of episodes and I've enjoyed listening to that.
14:26
Tell us how you're doing and tell us about the podcast and
14:29
how you started it and and what led to it all.
14:32
Well, you guys led to it all in a big way because when you had
14:37
me on before to talk about the Longview Baptist Temple and the
14:41
book that I wrote, gosh, almost 20 years ago, it got me really
14:46
thinking this, that and some other things.
14:48
I got put in some Facebook groups with a lot of former
14:53
members of Longview Baptist Temple.
14:55
I had left that world so far behind that I it was it was to
15:05
go back into. It was eye opening.
15:09
And I think I mentioned before, even as I was editing my book to
15:12
be re to be published again, I would start a chapter in my own
15:17
book and not remember where it was going.
15:19
That's how far away from all that I was.
15:22
But when I got back into it, I realized just how much worse
15:30
other people had it then I did. And it was eye opening.
15:36
I, I was thinking, this is far worse than I remember it.
15:41
There's so many hurting people. I liken it to, you know, a
15:47
person in the medical field just walking, walking into a field
15:51
where a bombs gone off. And where do you even start?
15:54
You know, trying to help people and helping people is why I
15:59
decided to do it. And so, yeah, I started the
16:03
Texas Baptist Crucible podcast. And I'm going to be honest with
16:07
you, I am having so much fun with that.
16:13
I have, I probably have too much fun with it.
16:16
It, it brings out my personality and I just really enjoy it.
16:22
I do you remember we had we had a cigar when you guys were in
16:26
Dallas. I had to start with you, James,
16:28
when you guys were in the in the Metroplex last year.
16:32
And I remember you asking me. So you, you know, like how much,
16:38
how much, what are you going to do on the podcast and how much,
16:43
how much do you have to talk about?
16:45
And I remember thinking, I've got, I, I got so much to talk
16:50
about. I've got so many things to look
16:53
at as far as what went on there at the Longview Baptist Temple
16:57
that I can't see an end of it. And I can tell you here, I don't
17:00
know how many months later this is.
17:02
I cannot see the end of it. I got 4 conversations in the
17:06
can, four Friday episodes in the can that I've just got to edit
17:10
right now. And people hitting me every day
17:14
wanting to come on. It's it's pretty incredible.
17:19
Well, let me ask you this without giving too much away,
17:23
because I know you got your, your, you know, your episodes in
17:27
the can you're looking forward to to release those.
17:31
But are there any interesting stories that you might can break
17:34
us off a little piece of and to kind of, you know, let us know
17:38
what some of those things you've been talking about on your
17:40
podcast? So a lot of what what what
17:45
happened at the Longview Baptist Temple back in the day, and I
17:47
try to keep it to that because I'm not there now.
17:50
I don't know what's going on now other than what people tell me.
17:54
That's all second hand. That's hearsay.
17:55
I want to talk about what what, what it was like when I was
17:59
there. Writing my book allowed me to
18:02
tell my story. And it was very cathartic to
18:06
just be able to say, hey, I'm making a record.
18:09
These are the things that happened to me.
18:11
The the a lot of the podcast is allowing other people to come on
18:16
and tell their stories, and their stories are fascinating.
18:21
And their stories are often worse than mine.
18:24
Most of them went through a lot worse than I did, especially
18:28
when it comes to the kids growing up there.
18:30
The amount of abuse that went on is astounding.
18:36
I'm talking about physical abuse of children.
18:40
I'm talking about sexual abuse. I'm talking about psychological
18:46
abuse. I'm talking about spiritual
18:48
abuse from the pulpit. These kids were screamed at
18:52
their entire lives. These kids were, you know, Paul
18:57
said he was what, what, thrice beaten with 40 stripes save one.
19:02
These kids were, were beaten. I've had I've two different
19:09
testimonies of like one guy told me getting 141 swats at one
19:15
time. Another girl saying, yeah, I
19:19
counted my my sister. I watched as my sister got 159.
19:26
The the abuse was just phenomenal.
19:29
It was off the charts. And a lot of it is giving
19:33
testimony to that. And so those are my Friday
19:37
episodes. My Tuesday episodes I try to do,
19:40
I mean, if you want to look at it this way, it's the way I look
19:42
at it. I try to do pastoral work.
19:45
I try to say point out, hey, this is what's wrong with the
19:48
thinking. This is what's, you know, I've
19:52
come so far spiritually since leaving there.
19:55
There's so much I want to share that can help them.
19:59
And I try to do that on the Tuesdays.
20:03
I even did a little history of how do you get to an LBT.
20:07
And I need to get back to that, too.
20:09
And that was inspired by this podcast, by the way, by
20:12
something your original founders, you know, did way
20:15
back. He did a few episodes like that.
20:17
And I kind of took off on that idea, too, to try to explain how
20:22
do you get a Longview Baptist Temple?
20:24
And, you know, how do you, what's the appeal of it?
20:28
Why would somebody think it's a good idea to go to a place where
20:30
the preacher taps the microphone and embarrasses you and calls
20:34
you out on a Sunday night and everybody cheers, You know, how
20:39
do you even get there? And so, yeah, I've got tons of
20:44
stuff. You could just pick anything.
20:46
Just go through there and and just pick one and listen to it.
20:51
I think it's fascinating when you really begin to look
20:54
backwards and some things as you begin to look at your past.
20:58
And I was just today in a counseling session and we're
21:00
talking about how, you know, how I even got to go to Champion and
21:05
didn't even know about this little place called Hot Springs.
21:08
But God's Providence allowed me and it shaped me into who I am.
21:13
Part of the story of, of your life and being there at LBCLBLBT
21:21
was your interaction with Scott Gray and now with where Scott
21:25
Gray's at now and everything that the preacher boys has been
21:29
covering with Liberty where he was at in Raleigh.
21:32
Why don't you tell us about your interaction with Scott Gray and
21:36
who he was while you were there. This is Bob Gray's son, so his
21:40
second son or third son and sort of your interaction with him.
21:45
And then maybe we can Fast forward and look at what's
21:47
recently been going on and sort of the culture that this mindset
21:52
of LBT has set up and what Scott was, it was, was did and now in
21:58
an investigation for here in Liberty.
22:01
So Scott was a friend of mine. So Bob Gray Senior has four
22:07
kids. The oldest one is Kim and then
22:12
is Bob Junior, and then is Karen and then is Scott.
22:20
Scott's the youngest. So when I got there in 87, Scott
22:22
was in high school. I think he probably graduated
22:26
high school in 88. And Scott and another guy were
22:31
my bus workers. I was a bus captain.
22:34
Gosh, I think I started as a bus captain when I was a freshman
22:39
and they were my bus workers. So they were they were on my bus
22:44
route. Like I hung it.
22:45
Even when Scott went to graduated high school and went
22:48
to the college, we were still friends.
22:51
We played basketball. He was even considered, you
22:58
know, he was caught up in as one of the rebels for a little bit.
23:02
Scott was always, Scott introduced us to Glad acapella,
23:08
which was forbidden music and which was kind of funny because,
23:13
you know, relatively recently, I know there was, there was some
23:18
things going on about some guy in the IFB world got called out
23:22
for some song that was over the top or syncopated or I don't
23:26
know what. And Scott Gray was like
23:29
defending him, you know, and #unaffiliated.
23:32
This is when he was still pastor.
23:35
But I have Scott even chaperone when when he got married, he
23:39
even chaperoned a date for me at one time.
23:44
And when I was at TBC and after I left and after I started
23:50
writing Tales from the Temple and putting them on the Fighting
23:53
Fundamentalist forum one at a time.
23:55
And then right about the time I was publishing the book, I got a
23:58
phone call from him. And this time I had been gone
24:01
for a while. And he's like, man, I want to
24:03
know why you're trying to publicly trash my dad and all
24:09
this. And I just said, Scott did, is
24:13
there something that I wrote that's not true?
24:17
Because I'm, I'm just making a record.
24:20
Well, you know, I said, if it's the truth and everything he did
24:26
was right, then why are you calling me?
24:30
And that's pretty much where it lay.
24:32
And I haven't really, you know, spoken to him since I don't have
24:37
anything against Scott. But I, I can understand how
24:40
someone in that world will put it that way, would get in that
24:45
kind of trouble because the man of God is, is not to be
24:51
questioned. And he's he there in that world,
24:56
the way they pastor, there's no accountability.
24:59
And when there's no accountability, you it's, it's
25:04
our sinful nature that says, oh, I can do this.
25:09
It's not that bad. It's like when you tell a lie
25:13
and you have to tell 10 other lies to cover for the lie that
25:15
you told. And I can see how someone I have
25:19
no idea if he's if he's guilty or not and what he's being
25:23
accused of right now. I hope he's not, but I could see
25:28
how someone could be in that situation where there's no
25:33
accountability. And yeah, you know, you realize
25:35
you can get away with this, and then you have to do a little bit
25:37
more. Oh, I'll pay it back.
25:39
I'll do this. And then it just spirals out of
25:43
control. Isn't that the way sin works in
25:45
our hearts? Absolutely.
25:48
What's the old adage? Sin will take you further than
25:50
you want to go, cost you more than you want to pay, and and
25:53
something something along those lines.
25:55
Longer than you want to stay. Yeah.
25:58
Or like I saw in the church sign, the problem with little
26:00
sins is they don't say they don't stay little.
26:03
Yeah. Right, You know, no
26:06
accountability is how a pastor runs up an embezzlement of
26:09
$400,000 at a church. You know, we've heard these
26:13
stories stories all the time. The the man of God has no
26:16
accountability and you know, he gets into all this trouble and
26:20
then he just goes staying over and everything and everything's
26:23
good. That's, you know, that's
26:24
unfortunate. That's the that's the culture
26:28
that you propagate with that sort of sort of man of God
26:32
mentality. It is.
26:34
It is Brett, right? Before you move on, I want to,
26:37
I'm going to, I'm trying to pull up the the store, the statement
26:40
that had been mentioned. But as you said, allegedly
26:42
there's $400,000 that had been embezzled through the church
26:46
where he's at. And I know James, you don't
26:50
know. I'm sure you haven't talked with
26:52
with him or anyone. Maybe you have.
26:55
But one of the statements that David Gibbs the Third had made
26:59
when they were there and they did the internal audit and he
27:02
was addressing the church. I think you said you had
27:04
actually gotten the audio from that as well, or maybe with a
27:07
truck driver or something. But David Gibbs, the Third, said
27:11
it was the worst case of fraud or embezzlement that he had ever
27:17
seen in his entire time of being an attorney in a religious
27:22
organization over a period of two years.
27:27
I want to just dig in because we're in a series that we're
27:30
going to come back to this in in just a little bit with the last
27:33
question that we have. We're in a series with Jim Jones
27:37
and spiritual manipulation and how Jim Jones was able to come
27:41
in and manipulate people through his authority to leave
27:44
everything they had and move to South America.
27:46
Guyana. How does someone like a Scott
27:50
Gray with being under Bob Gray there in Longview come here, do
27:56
this? Like what was there a pattern of
27:59
this there? Did you see this at all?
28:02
Do you think this was just a slip up that continued to
28:04
happen? Like how does this happen?
28:07
What, what, what, what goes on in someone's mind where they in
28:11
two years, I mean $400,000 in two years, It's I can't even
28:14
imagine that in a church structure like where I'm at.
28:19
I don't know. Yeah, our our church hasn't seen
28:22
$400,000 in the I have. I don't even know who gives it.
28:30
My church, we have a box in the back and they put it in there
28:34
and the treasurer takes care of it and I have nothing to do with
28:37
it. The church votes on the budget
28:40
like it is out of my hands. And so like I could not be
28:44
accused of anything like that. I can tell you that at at the
28:48
Longview Baptist Temple with Bob Gray Senior's pastor that there
28:53
was there was 0 accountability financially for things.
29:00
There was a treasurer there, a long term, and her name was
29:05
Diana Ayers, and the people feared her.
29:10
The people who worked on staff I know would try to get money for
29:13
this or that and it all had to be all had to go through her.
29:17
I could take you to people who would tell you that allegedly
29:23
the there were two sets of books and other things like that, but
29:27
there's no way I could confirm that.
29:29
I just know that the books at the Longview Baptist Temple were
29:33
shady. And so I it would not surprise
29:40
me that, you know, this is this where what else would Scott
29:45
learn but how to do ministry in that way?
29:49
That's the bubble he's in. Yeah.
29:51
I guess I have one more follow up question about that.
29:54
Have you heard from anyone at Longview are still in connection
30:00
there? It's not Longview more right,
30:01
it's Emmanuel Baptist. Church Emmanuel Baptist Church.
30:04
Yeah, OK. Has Bob Gray junior.
30:06
Is Bob Gray senior still alive? I think he's still alive.
30:08
Correct. He is, He is.
30:10
Have. Either one of those made a
30:12
statement about Scott Gray and Tim Fogey and Liberty and what's
30:18
going on. I understand it's been shared
30:21
that Scott Gray is now attending CT Townsend's church down in
30:24
Augusta, GA. And there's been pictures shared
30:28
on their Facebook page that he was there with some small groups
30:30
and things. And I actually talked to a guy
30:33
just this past week that knows the guy that goes to C TS church
30:37
that says the day that CT allows Scott Gray to step up in the
30:41
pulpit and preach will be the last day he attends that church.
30:45
So we know that he's attending there.
30:47
We know that he's going there. We know that he's doing some
30:50
things. But has anyone made any type of
30:51
public statement like we condone this behavior?
30:54
We don't agree with what he's done, like distance themselves
30:57
from him or made statements like that?
31:00
Or are they just turn a blonde eye?
31:02
So you talk about a family dynamic here.
31:05
OK, I can tell you that, that none of them get along.
31:12
So Bob, Bob Junior does not get along with Scott Gray.
31:18
They don't have anything to do with each other or very little
31:22
to do with each other. And neither one of them, as far
31:26
as I know, has very much to do with their dad.
31:29
Their dad's in Florida. He's at Greg Neal's church, and
31:32
he still preaches around some places.
31:35
He's got a little YouTube page where he gets like about 30
31:37
views for little videos that he does.
31:42
Bob Junior does, does not. They don't trust each other.
31:48
None of the family trust each other.
31:49
So when Missus Gray passed away here a couple of years ago, just
31:57
maybe two years ago, three, I'm not sure they, she was buried.
32:02
They had a grave site for her in Florida that the kids didn't
32:06
attend. And then the kids all had a
32:07
memorial for her in Longview that their dad did not attend.
32:12
And that kind of tells you the dynamic.
32:17
It's really sad. But but if they don't trust each
32:22
other, you got to ask yourself why?
32:26
Like, I know I don't trust them and I can tell you why I don't
32:29
trust them, but they don't trust each other.
32:32
Why? So.
32:35
Yeah. So I'm sure there there's
32:37
always. And I've had people tell me
32:39
this, that when they were growing up, their dad kind of
32:44
pitted them against each other as rivals.
32:48
And I have told you before, I was friends with Bob Junior too.
32:50
I worked with him at UPSI, went fishing with them.
32:54
You know, I had somewhat of a relationship with him as a peer
32:59
and not, as you know, I'm subordinate to him.
33:04
And you know, they're, they're two different animals.
33:10
I always like Scott better. Scott's not mean.
33:15
Her dad's just mean. And I, Bob Junior has a mean
33:21
streak in him too. I didn't see it.
33:24
But then I wasn't under him in the youth department.
33:27
If you listen to some, some of the testimony, some of the
33:30
people telling their stories on my podcast, it's unreal how mean
33:36
he was. And someone asked me that, like,
33:38
have you heard some, have you heard things about Bob Junior to
33:43
make you change your opinion of him because it seems like you
33:46
have a good opinion of him. And I said, well, I, I, I
33:49
wouldn't say that I have a good opinion of him.
33:51
It's just that I don't have personally anything against him.
33:56
And what for the things that I've heard, it just honestly
33:59
made me disappointed to learn those things.
34:03
And you know, you, you, you would hope for something better.
34:06
I always hope for. I just wish these people would
34:09
do better. And then when you hear that that
34:13
like these horrible things, you just face palm and you're like,
34:16
you're kidding me. Well, I tell you what, we're
34:21
going to get into the future of the podcast in just a minute,
34:24
but I'm going to take an opportunity to go off on a
34:26
rabbit trail because I had a couple things I wanted to hit
34:30
you with and go over with you. One thing is in my personal
34:34
life, I've had a great opportunity to go back to New
34:39
Orleans and get my master divinity.
34:42
And I'm I'm right in the middle of the process of that.
34:45
I'm part of scholarship. I'm getting it free of charge.
34:47
I wasn't able to get it any other way.
34:49
And definitely is a blessing from the Lord that he opened
34:53
this door for me. I made a decision a couple of
34:55
weeks ago. I prayed about it, thought about
34:58
it, and I switched my Mdiv from pastoral ministry to chaplaincy
35:04
and pastoral care because I, you know, I think that that's a
35:07
good, you know, it's a good feather to have in my cap.
35:10
It's good to have something to fall back on.
35:12
Who knows, I might end up doing that one day.
35:15
And the difference between the two master's degrees are three
35:18
classes. It's, it's, it's not a very big
35:21
difference, but you've got some experience with chaplaincy.
35:25
And so I, I would like to, for, for you to share your heart a
35:28
little bit about the ministry of Chaplaincy, about what it takes
35:33
to be an effective chaplain and just where you're at with that.
35:39
So I became a Hospice chaplain 11 1/2 years ago.
35:44
It's honestly the best. It's it's, it's a ministry.
35:47
It's not a job, but I tell people it's the best job I've
35:50
ever had. I absolutely love it.
35:55
What helped me to do this very well.
35:59
One of the things was that I have an innate curiosity about
36:02
why people believe what they believe.
36:04
And so I've always been curious what what does, how would a
36:07
Lutheran describe their faith and, and, and how they got there
36:12
and why they believe the way they do?
36:13
How would a Methodist, how would anybody?
36:16
And so just delving in because it was my interest when I when I
36:22
interviewed to become the Hospice chaplain, I said, I can
36:25
tell you, you tell me your fake tradition and I can tell you as
36:29
much more about it as you can. And that helps me to relate to
36:35
people as as Christians. Yeah, we have things that we
36:40
disagree about, obviously, and those things tend to be
36:43
heightened within the Christian world.
36:45
But to be honest with you a lot when it comes to lay people in
36:50
the church, you know, it's faith that unites us to Christ, not a
36:56
doctrinal statement. And you run into believers in
37:01
all these churches when I was growing up IFB, you know, it's
37:04
like these people aren't even saved, you know they but you
37:09
find out, you know, people believe in and love Christ,
37:12
whatever their tradition is. And so I'm able, if you were to
37:16
draw the Venn diagram of what I believe and where all these
37:20
other traditions are, there is so much that we have in common.
37:24
And sometimes it's just a matter of me using different vocabulary
37:30
that means basically the same thing.
37:32
But I get to minister to people at the end of their lives.
37:36
And part of what I do is it was, it kind of blew me away when I
37:42
first became chaplain. They said we want you to do
37:45
minister to patients and their families, which is a joy, do
37:51
bereavement work and also marketing.
37:54
And I said, well, what do you mean by marketing?
37:56
What am I supposed to do? We want you in the nursing homes
37:59
and the assisted living facilities.
38:02
We want you seen all the time. We want you to get to know
38:05
everybody in those facilities. And so I do Bible studies.
38:09
I hold church almost every day of the week in in one of these
38:14
places, grab the Heavenly Hwy. hymnal and sing, you know, songs
38:20
from the Heavenly Hwy. hymnal. I take the sermons I preach at
38:23
church. I edit, I scale them down and
38:27
edit them for a general audience in the nursing home.
38:30
And I, I have church and I re preached my sermons all week
38:35
long. And I love all those people.
38:38
I have people that you could look at it this way.
38:40
It's, it's technically I haven't been their pastor, but I mean,
38:45
more or less I've been pastoring them for 10 years because
38:49
they're residents in a nursing home and I'm the only one that
38:52
comes and preaches to them. And it's I absolutely love what
38:59
I do as a Hospice chaplain. Has being a chaplain affected
39:04
like your, your church? Have you gotten any, you know,
39:07
any, you know, I guess what I could say, you know, people come
39:11
to your church because of you being a chaplain and you had
39:14
influence in that way. Yes, yes, in fact, you can if
39:20
you were to be a Hospice chaplain in the area, you meet
39:23
all sorts of people. And sometimes you run into
39:25
people who will say I'd, I'd like to visit your church.
39:29
We've had people visit. We haven't had anybody join, but
39:32
we've had people, you know, as regular visitors for a while.
39:36
And so, yeah, it, it definitely goes right along with it.
39:41
And at the church, they're just glad that 'cause I'm the church
39:44
is not able to pay me, I'm by, by vocational.
39:47
And so it, the Hospice allows me to do church work while I'm at
39:52
Hospice and the church allows me to do Hospice work.
39:56
And they blend so well. It's almost like like, like,
40:00
well, obviously God was in it. James, did you have any
40:04
questions about this? God intended it.
40:06
I love it. No, that's great.
40:07
I think that's a great ministry. When I was in Hiddenite as a
40:11
youth pastor, I had the opportunity.
40:13
They had interviewed me. The Hospice chaplain had retired
40:17
or had passed away. And so I put my name in the hat
40:21
and and they, I was young and they didn't want someone young
40:26
in that position. So they went with the older guy
40:28
and he only lasted like a year. And then I've already left.
40:31
And I said, hey, you could have had me guys.
40:33
But but I've had, I've had some good relationships with some
40:37
chaplains in the area. And I think it's a great work
40:41
and I appreciate what you're doing with that.
40:43
So yeah. All right, James, I've got one
40:46
more thing, actually two more, if you don't mind me taking some
40:50
time. James, let me ask you, in the 11
40:55
years that you've been in a Hospice chaplain, are there any
40:58
testimonies or stories that stick out in your mind right now
41:02
that have really affected people that you'd like to share?
41:08
There was a man who was a resident in a nursing home when
41:12
I first started and he was just such a precious man.
41:19
And I would go in there and and do Bible studies.
41:22
He was in there because he had he had cancer.
41:26
He fought it and it and was declared cancer free.
41:31
But as often happens, his cancer came back.
41:35
He struggled so much with the chemo and radiation, everything.
41:38
The first time he did not want to do it again.
41:40
And so he chose to just go in the nursing home.
41:44
And when time came, he went on Hospice.
41:47
And I walked with him spiritually for several years
41:53
because it it took that long for the cancer to eventually take
41:57
him. And I loved that guy.
42:00
His family wasn't around. He had sons that, you know,
42:03
worked in Washington, DC, things like that.
42:06
And that story could be repeated over and over and over where
42:12
precious people that I am able to be their friend.
42:16
I, I, I mean, I've met so many people that I'm going to have a
42:19
reunion with in heaven that it's, it's just, I, I can't wait
42:24
to get there and see all these people again.
42:27
I can't wait for the resurrection when they're no
42:30
longer in wheelchairs, when we're all like healthy and happy
42:35
and I and honestly it helps me be focused like that all the
42:40
time. I love those people so much.
42:43
I would rather preach to 8 people in a nursing home than to
42:48
1000 in some church. I really would.
42:52
Amen. Amen.
42:53
OK, I got one more thing before we get back on track.
42:56
You have a famous uncle, Uncle Charles Spurgeon.
43:04
So we're going to do a little game show in post.
43:07
We're going to cue the game show music right now.
43:34
And so we're going to play a little game called Isn't Uncle
43:38
Chuck or Not OK? OK.
43:41
And we're. Going to put the 2 James's
43:43
against each other. So I'm going to read a quote and
43:46
you're going to say, is it Uncle Chuck or is it not Uncle Chuck?
43:49
OK, OK, all right here. Here's the first one.
43:53
And just so you know, I haven't been given these ahead of time
43:55
either. This is all brand new for me.
43:57
I'm surprised I'm laying this on them too.
43:59
OK, here's the first quote I've learned to kiss the wave that
44:04
throws me against the Rock of Ages.
44:07
That is Uncle Chuck. Uncle Chuck, baby, that's.
44:09
Him. That is correct.
44:11
That is correct. OK, next one.
44:14
It's not how much we have, but how much we enjoy that makes
44:17
happiness. I don't think that's Chuck.
44:23
I don't know. I've never heard that one.
44:26
OK, so yes or no? No, I'm a no.
44:30
No, it's correct. That is not Uncle Chuck.
44:32
Let's. Go OK, we're tied.
44:35
Baby face off James versus James, we're tied.
44:38
Here's. The next one, if sinners will be
44:41
damned, at least let them leap over.
44:44
Let them leap the hell over our bodies.
44:47
Yes, that's Uncle Chuck. Yes, I'm going to say that's
44:49
him. That is correct.
44:51
You're both right man. Y'all are tied up.
44:53
Three to three, baby, three to three.
44:55
All right, here we go. Defend the Bible.
44:59
I would as soon defend the lion, let it loose, it will defend
45:03
itself. That's him, yes.
45:05
Yeah. That is not Charles Burton.
45:09
What? What?
45:11
You both still tied up? You both still tied up.
45:14
OK, I got we'll we'll, we'll do two more.
45:17
That was because it sounds like Chuck.
45:19
It's just a common saying. All right, we we got two more.
45:24
You are what you are in secret. I'm going to say no.
45:29
I'm going to say no. That is not Uncle Chuck.
45:32
Let's. Go.
45:34
All right, last. 4 to 4 all. Right here we go, last one, see
45:39
if we can tie it up or win. I have a great need for Christ.
45:44
I have a great Christ for my need.
45:49
I'm going to say no, I'm. Going to say yes.
45:52
All right, that. Was Uncle Chuck.
45:56
Let's. Go.
45:57
The lead urge took it Persian. Family wins it. 5:00 to 4:00.
46:03
Yes. All right.
46:04
So you've lived up to your name, Sir?
46:07
Absolutely. OK.
46:09
Virgin also said that God gave him two hands to fill with
46:14
cigars, one in each hand, both of them to the of God.
46:19
Amen. All right, so at this point
46:23
we're going to get back on track and I'm going to ask you about
46:26
the future of the Crucible. Where do you see your podcast
46:29
going? Well, you know, I, I hope to get
46:34
more people listening because it, even though it's, it's
46:37
centered on the Longview Baptist Temple, it, it has so much to
46:42
say that people in I've got a guy who messages me almost after
46:46
every episode who was in the Bob Jones world.
46:51
And he says the basically the only difference is that it was,
46:55
it was kinder and gentler in the Bob Jones world, but the same
46:59
controlling aspects. He identifies with so much of
47:05
what they say there. So I, I'd kind of like to get a
47:08
broader audience, but as far as as I'm going to continue doing
47:11
what I'm doing because like the number of people who were
47:16
damaged by that place, when I say damage, I mean real damage
47:20
is in the thousands. And they continually reach out
47:25
to me. I'm surprised every week by
47:28
hearing from new people. Like I'm, Oh yeah, I forgot
47:31
about them. I've had a lot of people talk to
47:35
me off the record. And there's so much more I feel
47:39
like that I can say to help people who were damaged by that.
47:43
My goal for them is to find the real Christ, to find genuine
47:50
Christianity to find. And just like with my Hospice
47:54
work, I'm not sectarian. You know, on the podcast, I
47:57
don't care, you know, if they go to a Methodist Church that I'd
48:01
say that because I'm always joking about Methodist.
48:03
I love Methodist, but whatever church, I want them in church, I
48:08
want them serving Christ and they're not ready for it.
48:11
Most of the people I talk to, they got they, they run a
48:15
spectrum of I'm an atheist to, I'm agnostic to, well, me and
48:20
Jesus, we have our own thing going to, I go to church, but I,
48:25
it's, it's hard for me to go in because there are triggers.
48:29
I've had people talk about like a certain song is sung and their
48:33
husband just has to reach down, pat him on the knee and say it's
48:36
going to be OK because they're getting they're having
48:39
reactions, they're being taken back to that horrific place.
48:44
And that place was spiritually horrific, the damage that it did
48:50
to people. And so we're just going to
48:52
continue talking about that because people when they come on
48:55
and tell their story, they talk about how cathartic it is, how
48:58
healing it is. Listening to other people tell
49:02
their stories for them is healing and cathartic and just
49:05
going to continue doing that, continue trying to point out
49:08
what's wrong, point people in the right direction, give them
49:12
the gospel. They, they, some of them, they
49:17
realize that some of them may not.
49:18
What they think of as preaching is not what I do and what I
49:22
think of this preaching. I do it all the time in the
49:25
podcast and they don't even know it.
49:29
Does that make sense? I hope I didn't let the handbook
49:31
bag. I might have preached to them
49:33
quite a bit and but they weren't aware it was preaching.
49:35
So they just listened to it because that's not the preaching
49:38
they grew up with. Yeah.
49:40
So. Well, we are we just finished up
49:43
our series on Jim Jones and looking at spiritual
49:47
manipulation. Sounds like you've listened to a
49:49
couple of those episodes. We we ended it last week with
49:54
looking at when you are in that spiritually abusive manipulation
50:00
relationship style church. And we even talked about how
50:02
some of these people were born and raised in this environment
50:05
and they didn't equalize it until the the Jews came and they
50:09
drunk the kool-aid and they were, they had, they committed
50:12
suicide, this mass genocide that happened.
50:17
And so the question we want to pose and sort of in the, the,
50:20
the talk today is if you find yourself, you wake up one day
50:25
and you realize, wow, I've been in this environment.
50:28
I've been in ATBC, I've been in that LBT, I've been in this
50:33
environment and didn't even realize it.
50:35
But now the red flags are starting to come out.
50:37
Now I'm starting to see some of these things.
50:39
What do you do? How do you help someone to come
50:42
out of that environment that's been trapped or stuck or
50:45
realizes they're in that environment?
50:47
It's difficult because if, if you if you're a member of that
50:50
church, you're told that all the other churches are apostate,
50:53
You're told it's scary to go to another church.
50:56
That's like, it's like there's this giant liberal monster out
50:59
there that's going to suck you in and take away your faith.
51:03
And I, I try my best to convey the truth that there's genuine
51:09
Christianity out there and people who leave like grow in
51:12
their faith because they left. That you're being stunted in
51:16
your growth and you would be better off spiritually by
51:20
leaving that place and finding a better church.
51:24
And that there are lots of churches out there that you
51:28
could go to and you just matter of finding the right place.
51:32
And you know, I, I listen to Eric Skrzynski on preacher boys
51:37
podcast and I enjoy what he does.
51:40
He does something different than I do.
51:42
He he is investigative and exposing.
51:48
You know, it's like 2020, right? That's that's kind of what his
51:51
vicious. That's what he does.
51:53
And whereas I'm AI approach it differently.
51:55
I want to steer people back to good Christianity because there
52:01
is a good Christianity out there.
52:03
And it wasn't what they what they were exposed to.
52:07
And so it's, it's, it's, it's tough.
52:09
You have to be gentle and you just have to, you know, persuade
52:13
people, hey, there's a better world out there.
52:15
There's a whole new world out there.
52:18
I'm I'm curious before we go on to the next thing, I'm curious
52:23
you, you, you've been in them that environment.
52:25
You wrote the book on that environment, but as you heard
52:30
things on your podcast that even shocked you.
52:33
Yes, absolutely. I hear things all the time that
52:38
make my jaw drop. And sometimes on the podcast is
52:41
sometimes off the record things that people tell me.
52:44
I've got a lot of people who are scared to come on.
52:49
I have people who can't come on because they have family who's
52:52
still there and they have to navigate that relationship that
52:56
they have with them. They don't want to hurt them,
52:58
even though a lot of people have been shunned for leaving.
53:01
I guess that you, you fear when you leave that place.
53:06
You fear what they're going to do to you, what they're going to
53:09
say about you. And they actively threaten, you
53:13
know? And it's they they control by
53:17
manipulation. And that manipulation lasts a
53:20
long time after you're gone. And so, yeah, I hear things that
53:24
make my jaw drop. It's, it's incredible the the
53:29
amount of control they had over the kids there, the way the kids
53:34
were treated there, the things that were swept under the rug
53:38
there, the the stupid evangelistic things that were
53:45
done as far as baptizing over and over and over and over again
53:50
the same person. The way the numbers were counted
53:54
just make you. It's amazing how they could do
53:59
that and still justify that in their minds and have any
54:03
integrity when they announce the numbers.
54:07
It's the whole thing is a is a carnival only a really dark
54:13
carnival, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's tough to tough to
54:17
hear that. And we've talked through
54:19
multiple times of how to find a healthy church.
54:21
We've had Jim Neuhauser come on as far as boundaries and some
54:25
things to look at and different great conversations.
54:28
And I'm glad you gave those those things to look at because
54:31
those are valuable for us as we begin to, even if we're in a
54:35
healthy church, right to be able to see those red flags, to be
54:37
able to call those things out when we see them because
54:40
accountability matters and be able to be be faithful in those
54:45
things are good for us to hold each other accountable.
54:48
And we we appreciate you so much coming on.
54:51
I appreciate your work with the Texas Baptist Crucible.
54:54
I'm glad to have a little bit of piece of of starting that by up
54:57
to us and bursting that into existence.
55:01
We should start our own network. Now that the RFP network is
55:05
down, we can start our own network of a fun podcast and
55:09
full time. I'd love it.
55:11
But yeah, if you're ever in the area, come by and see us.
55:15
And we'd love to have a cigar with you again, James.
55:18
But thank you for coming on today.
55:20
And until next time, to God be the glory.
55:23
Great things he has done found. My new name found that good
55:28
grace, found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when
55:33
I found my beginning that has no ending.
55:35
I found my second chance, found my best friend, found my
55:37
forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since I
55:39
found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
55:57
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
56:00
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
56:04
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
56:08
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.