Latest / The Reformatory / The Sacraments

Transcript

The Sacraments · The Reformatory

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you got for me?
0:02
[UNKNOWN]: I don't love you.
0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:12
[UNKNOWN]: I don't love you.
0:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:15
[UNKNOWN]: I don't love you.
0:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't love you.
0:32
[SPEAKER_04]: What's going on everyone and welcome to this very special episode of the Reformatory.
0:43
[SPEAKER_04]: My name is Josh and I'm here as always with the man who has been at my side for four or five years now.
0:57
[SPEAKER_04]: The local churchman himself, the captain, Jack Barry.
1:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, my friend, this is a momentous episode.
1:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like kicking somebody in the chest and having them saying, you know, that that scene in three hundred.
1:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
1:13
[SPEAKER_03]: This is smart.
1:15
[SPEAKER_03]: We're just kicking somebody in the chest.
1:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I know.
1:17
[SPEAKER_04]: So dude, episode three hundred.
1:21
[SPEAKER_04]: three hundred episodes.
1:22
[SPEAKER_04]: I got to say, man, I didn't think we were going to make it.
1:26
[SPEAKER_04]: That is in the first half of the first half of everyone thought everyone know and everyone was haters.
1:33
[SPEAKER_04]: We believed in ourselves.
1:34
[SPEAKER_04]: We got it done.
1:36
[SPEAKER_04]: episode three hundred jack it has been a wild ride it has been a long ride a lot has a lot of life has been lived in these I think Daniel was with us for a hundred ups or something like that and then you popped over a lot of life has been lived in these four or five years that you and I have been doing this
1:57
[SPEAKER_04]: marriages and kids and ministries and different different places, a lot, lots of stuff.
2:05
[SPEAKER_04]: This is pretty cool episode three hundred.
2:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm pretty excited.
2:09
[SPEAKER_04]: This is awesome.
2:10
[SPEAKER_04]: And what better way to celebrate episode three hundred than talking about the sacraments, right?
2:16
[SPEAKER_04]: Like talking about the means of grace, my friend.
2:18
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't wait.
2:21
[SPEAKER_04]: But we got some business to take care of before that.
2:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously this episode specifically this episode is sponsored by two very very special.
2:35
[SPEAKER_04]: I would say
2:37
[SPEAKER_04]: conglomerations, if you will.
2:39
[SPEAKER_04]: The first being Broken Warf bookstore.
2:43
[SPEAKER_04]: They have come alongside the reformatory to sponsor us for our three hundredth episode and we could not be more thankful to Broken Warf.
2:52
[SPEAKER_04]: They are sponsoring our amazing three hundred episode giveaway that you can find over on Instagram and Twitter the rules for
3:00
[SPEAKER_04]: entering that our clear is day.
3:03
[SPEAKER_04]: He can head on over there.
3:03
[SPEAKER_04]: It's pinned on both of those profiles.
3:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Make sure to give it on that giveaway because as when this episode drops Thursday, the giveaway will be the next day Friday.
3:15
[SPEAKER_04]: We will be choosing winners of the three hundred episode giveaway.
3:19
[SPEAKER_04]: So huge.
3:20
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you to Brokenworth and also make sure you still got a little bit of time throughout the entire month of August.
3:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Broken Wurf is giving reformatory listeners exclusive discount.
3:35
[SPEAKER_04]: at their bookstore, ten percent off all purchases when using the promo code reformatory for the rest of the month of August.
3:43
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people are getting those second London confessional things.
3:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Other bound ones.
3:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
3:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are clean iridesis.
3:53
[SPEAKER_04]: I use the.
3:54
[SPEAKER_04]: I use reformatory promo code.
3:56
[SPEAKER_04]: I got my ten percent off and I got it in burgundy, baby.
4:00
[SPEAKER_04]: I got that, I got that deep like communion, communion, red wine, premium leather bond in the sixteen eight nine coming my way.
4:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm really looking forward to that.
4:14
[SPEAKER_04]: So huge thank you to Broken Warf also make sure to go again use the promo code reformatory get ten percent off all purchases for the month of August.
4:24
[SPEAKER_04]: And Jack, we got another special one.
4:26
[SPEAKER_04]: The Pactum.
4:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
4:28
[SPEAKER_04]: The Pactum podcast, huge friends, gracious friends, amazing friends of the podcast have come alongside and our additional supporter of our three-hundredth episode.
4:42
[SPEAKER_04]: And the Pactum has also joined the giveaway.
4:45
[SPEAKER_04]: and has provided some amazing, amazing reading material that you can see in those giveaway posts that we have on Twitter and Instagram.
4:53
[SPEAKER_04]: We love the pactum.
4:54
[SPEAKER_04]: We love the pactum.
4:55
[SPEAKER_04]: We love the cut of their jib as we say.
4:59
[SPEAKER_04]: They're approach to confessionalism.
5:01
[SPEAKER_04]: They're approach to the gospel.
5:03
[SPEAKER_04]: They're focusedness.
5:04
[SPEAKER_04]: They're, excuse me.
5:05
[SPEAKER_04]: Folkiness.
5:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Folkiness.
5:07
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the domestic coming out and they're right there.
5:09
[SPEAKER_04]: That's the Eastern Washington coming out right there.
5:11
[SPEAKER_04]: They're focusedness of a clear and I would say undefiled gospel making sure that the terms and agreements are correct and I would love love a patent.
5:30
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, all those guys over there at the packed and great fantastic people.
5:34
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, make sure to be go listening to the podcast and we thank them for coming alongside us as well.
5:40
[SPEAKER_04]: They got a cool conference coming up too in October.
5:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
5:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
5:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
5:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
5:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Throwing around the idea of maybe popping up there.
5:48
[SPEAKER_04]: I might, I might do it.
5:51
[SPEAKER_04]: It's one of those conferences that I see and I'm like, ooh, that one looks exciting.
5:55
[SPEAKER_04]: But they got that packed and packed and conference coming up in October.
5:58
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know what soul that too is like has really got me thinking was they got Chris Larson up there.
6:06
[SPEAKER_04]: And they're doing a he's doing like a like a talk on like the the the the life of our sea sprawl.
6:12
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like a
6:22
[SPEAKER_04]: awesome awesome stuff huge thank you to the packed and podcast and broken work you guys are the real ones we really appreciate you jack we've got stuff to get into man but before we do it's time for everyone's everyone's favorite segment don't forget to eat your Instagrams
6:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And those are the tiny global men in four.
6:43
[SPEAKER_01]: The ordinary broadcast presents, don't forget to eat your instant grams.
6:48
[SPEAKER_01]: With your host, Josh Loftus on Jack Mary.
6:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And remember kids, it's not heresy if you're believable, hard enough.
6:57
[SPEAKER_04]: This is, don't forget to eat your Instagrams and remember kids, it's not heresy if you believe it hard enough.
7:02
[SPEAKER_04]: That's how it works.
7:04
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, I got some short and sweet ones for you today.
7:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Two short and sweet ones for you today.
7:12
[SPEAKER_04]: but I was perusing as I often do the Instagram reels, the local church focus Instagram reels.
7:21
[SPEAKER_04]: And my guy, I've got some crazy ones here, okay?
7:25
[SPEAKER_04]: We're gonna start off with this choice one.
7:28
[SPEAKER_04]: This looks like Christian late night TV.
7:30
[SPEAKER_04]: You know when like you're in a hotel and you fall asleep with a TV on and you wake up and it's like the the charity song or no, it's like the sixty song to CD compilation of all the greatest love songs, right?
7:48
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not like that, but this is in the in the Christian in the Christian world.
7:53
[SPEAKER_04]: You fall asleep and this is what's and you leave your TV on on TV.
8:01
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what's playing a two-way.
8:02
[SPEAKER_04]: When you wake up, you're waking up, you're delirious, you don't know where you are, you're thirsty, and this is what's playing on your TV.
8:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I love to pray for people for cars.
8:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You say, I need a car.
8:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll get on the phone.
8:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell us what kind of car that you need.
8:18
[SPEAKER_04]: I think there was, I think it's priced at like a hundred and fifty thousand something like that.
8:31
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like one of those.
8:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like one of those.
8:34
[SPEAKER_04]: She likes praying for cars, dude.
8:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's get to the end.
8:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I need a car.
8:38
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll get on the phone.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell us what kind of car that you need.
8:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell us what kind and we're gonna believe God for your car.
8:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Now this car is a sanctified car.
8:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So it goes to church picks up people for church.
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't play ronchim music.
8:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Have sex in the back seat.
8:53
[SPEAKER_00]: No, this sanctified car.
8:55
[SPEAKER_00]: No, Rex, you know, it's not a lemon.
8:57
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a really really good car.
9:00
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
9:02
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
9:09
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, can we go back?
9:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful for church.
9:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't play ranch in music.
9:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Have sex in the backseat.
9:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this sanctified car.
9:17
[SPEAKER_02]: No racks, you know.
9:24
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what a sanctified car is Jack.
9:28
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
9:28
[SPEAKER_04]: You ain't listening to any ranch in music.
9:31
[SPEAKER_04]: No secular music in that car.
9:33
[SPEAKER_04]: and uh... definitely make sure that you're not having no no no no hanky panky no petty fingers in the sanctified car that she's gonna pray for uh... i've been praying and it hasn't happened yet so i'm just saying i don't know where it's at
10:20
[SPEAKER_04]: You didn't think that you'd get any worse.
10:22
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, okay.
10:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Imagine being this guy on a Sunday morning.
10:26
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I'm just getting this image of the throne room of God that the elders are castrating themselves in front of the horse and it's just a beautiful, beautiful picture It's not that it's not a beautiful picture.
10:44
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm picturing that in my head right now
10:48
[SPEAKER_04]: Not even trying and there's nothing beautiful about it.
10:50
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that dude actually thought way he said and he just kept going.
10:55
[SPEAKER_03]: He kept going with it.
10:57
[SPEAKER_04]: I think he tried to say prostrating themselves, right?
11:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is already like a hard word to get right.
11:05
[SPEAKER_02]: The elders are castrating themselves in front of the horse and it's just a beautiful, beautiful picture.
11:15
[SPEAKER_04]: He had to roll with it.
11:17
[SPEAKER_03]: No one have heard that, please.
11:20
[SPEAKER_03]: I just hope people have not gone to college and I'm just going to roll with this and I'm just going to treat it like it.
11:25
[SPEAKER_03]: It's no big deal.
11:26
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it's a big deal.
11:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, there's up there, castrate themselves.
11:29
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a big deal when people become unix.
11:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
11:33
[SPEAKER_04]: They're taking the, they're taking the Jewish law to a whole new level.
11:35
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
11:35
[SPEAKER_04]: Like they went from certain to straight up castration.
11:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
11:39
[SPEAKER_03]: They're taking Paul's advice and going full tilt with it.
11:41
[SPEAKER_04]: You're full tilt.
11:44
[SPEAKER_04]: This is where left behind doctrine gets us.
11:47
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
11:48
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what ends up happening.
11:50
[SPEAKER_04]: All right, when you get all your doctrine from left behind, you start having visions of elders and heaven can't see themselves.
11:56
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what starts happening here.
11:59
[SPEAKER_04]: Jerry B. Jenkins, Tim Lehay.
12:03
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, Pete, Tim Lehay, Tim Lehay is dead.
12:06
[SPEAKER_03]: He's true.
12:07
[SPEAKER_03]: That's true.
12:08
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know where.
12:10
[SPEAKER_04]: Now I've been having castrated himself.
12:17
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yeah.
12:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Some things you just can't recover from.
12:20
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think he understood that that was one of those things right after he said it.
12:24
[SPEAKER_04]: He's like, there's no, there's no way to hide that.
12:26
[SPEAKER_04]: There's no way to hide that.
12:27
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
12:27
[SPEAKER_04]: Just gotta go forward with no coming back off.
12:31
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, Jack, my friend, just as there's no way to come back from that.
12:36
[SPEAKER_04]: We are gonna hop into our topic today.
12:40
[SPEAKER_04]: So, Jack was not able to join us last week.
12:44
[SPEAKER_04]: He's down with the sickness as happens sometimes.
12:48
[SPEAKER_04]: So we did, we did a little break.
12:51
[SPEAKER_04]: As I said last week, I contemplated doing the sacraments on my own.
12:55
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, dude, I gotta have Jack for here from this.
12:58
[SPEAKER_04]: I gotta have my partner in crime.
13:00
[SPEAKER_04]: It wouldn't be right.
13:01
[SPEAKER_04]: So we did a little divo, which was fun, but we're back to our Liturgy series.
13:08
[SPEAKER_04]: And like I said, I can't think of a better way.
13:11
[SPEAKER_04]: to cap off three hundred episodes of the reformatory then talking about the sacraments true baptism and the Lord's supper baby like this is this is it's it's it's awesome it's amazing right so that's what we're going to do so we're continuing our our liturgical series the kind of different elements of what
13:32
[SPEAKER_04]: what a liturgical service encapsulates, if you will, within the specifically reform Baptist tradition.
13:40
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, as we've said through this series, you're going to see some differences depending on what tradition you're following.
13:47
[SPEAKER_04]: And even in reform Baptist churches, you're going to see differences in terms of how they go about their order of service, how those liturgical elements are
14:01
[SPEAKER_04]: are played out within the service and that's cool that that to me is is is is is really neat right because that it it really nails in for me the importance one of the autonomy of the local church and that we are not beholding to a
14:19
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, a pope that dictates how we worship and how we practice, right?
14:25
[SPEAKER_04]: But you get to see how different churches value different things and different congregations go about different things.
14:33
[SPEAKER_04]: And it always, it's always encouraging to me to see how the Lord uses, you know.
14:39
[SPEAKER_04]: The unity that we have in the essentials being manifested in different ways throughout the service, right?
14:45
[SPEAKER_04]: So something that you will see in liturgical services is often the sacraments being observed as they are commanded to be, right?
14:54
[SPEAKER_04]: Baptism and the Lord supper.
14:56
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, usually, be just unless you have just a
15:00
[SPEAKER_04]: raise a huge church.
15:01
[SPEAKER_04]: You're having the Lord's supper more often than you are baptisms.
15:07
[SPEAKER_04]: And we'll get into the Lord's supper stuff in terms of like frequency and things like that a little later, but we're going to start with baptism, right?
15:14
[SPEAKER_04]: So one of the commands of Scripture, one of the elements of a liturgical service,
15:22
[SPEAKER_04]: One of the means of grace, one of the sacraments is baptism, right?
15:27
[SPEAKER_04]: And what's cool about the sacraments is that they really are kind of
15:32
[SPEAKER_04]: They're kind of icing on the liturgical cake, if you will.
15:35
[SPEAKER_04]: If the preaching of the word is the main course, that's the rib-eye steak.
15:43
[SPEAKER_04]: The sacraments are the sweet dessert, if you will.
15:50
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a food guy.
15:50
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm hungry.
15:52
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm thinking of these terms.
15:54
[SPEAKER_04]: Deal with it.
15:56
[SPEAKER_04]: The sacraments are really kind of the
16:03
[SPEAKER_04]: the end cap, the yes and end the amen.
16:07
[SPEAKER_04]: And the feasting on the truths that we have been confessing throughout the entirety of the liturgical service, right?
16:15
[SPEAKER_04]: So we're going to get into baptism and it's not going to be an exhaustive.
16:19
[SPEAKER_04]: Look at baptism.
16:20
[SPEAKER_04]: I think in our next series that Jack and I are thinking about doing, we'll probably have an episode or possibly two where we dive into baptism a little bit more, more on that later, more no spoilers yet.
16:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, Jack, I want to get in first.
16:35
[SPEAKER_04]: How does, because every church does it a little different?
16:37
[SPEAKER_04]: How does yours, particular church do do baptisms?
16:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so we lately, we've been doing them in a way in which we usually do a call out.
16:51
[SPEAKER_03]: So we'll put a date on the calendar and then we'll say, hey, if you're interested in baptism, we'd love to get you signed up and then our elders take them through just a candid conversation about probably what baptism is.
17:07
[SPEAKER_03]: I have never seen this done before.
17:10
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have come from mostly spontaneous baptisms.
17:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, which I have my qualms about now going through them.
17:21
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I really agree with them or not because I don't know if that's a discipleship moment as more of a
17:31
[SPEAKER_03]: emotionally charged event.
17:35
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
17:36
[SPEAKER_04]: So, well, I mean, and on that, I have seen spontaneous baptisms go so wrong so quickly.
17:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there's, there's that video.
17:45
[SPEAKER_04]: One of our young folks sent me a video shot out Caleb.
17:49
[SPEAKER_04]: You can and sent me a, and his brother, no one might have sent it to me.
17:52
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't remember.
17:53
[SPEAKER_04]: One of them said it to me.
17:54
[SPEAKER_04]: of this spontaneous baptism that they had on Sunday.
17:57
[SPEAKER_04]: And the guy gets in the water and the pastor, the pastor asks him, you know, what's your name?
18:03
[SPEAKER_04]: And the guy leans over to the mic, he goes, my name is Jesus Christ and I am the Messiah.
18:07
[SPEAKER_04]: And the pastor goes, okay, well, we're gonna have to take some more time on this one, right?
18:11
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, legitimately happened.
18:13
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
18:14
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's the danger of spontaneous baptisms.
18:17
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll take the heat.
18:19
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not a fan.
18:20
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think I moved away from them primarily because I don't think the way that the church and North America that's doing spontaneous baptisms is doing them in a way in which it leads to discipleship.
18:36
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's the most important part.
18:39
[SPEAKER_03]: like it's not just you get you get baptized and then you do whatever you want it's no you get baptized and become a disciple and follow after Jesus and get plugged into the local church and I think all too often when I was a part of spontaneous baptisms
18:54
[SPEAKER_03]: I think looking back on it, I kind of, I cringe sometimes if I would have led those people down a wrong path in their relationship with Christ.
19:08
[SPEAKER_03]: And so, yeah, we do it in a way in which if somebody's interested in baptism, you go through a class with our elders, you walk through that, and then
19:20
[SPEAKER_03]: since we're meeting at a middle school because we're only doing one service in the size of our church right now.
19:26
[SPEAKER_03]: We usually do it in like after, well, lately, excuse me, lately, on Easter this year, we did get a baptismal.
19:38
[SPEAKER_03]: And we did it out in the quad area of the middle school.
19:42
[SPEAKER_03]: Easter baptismal.
19:43
[SPEAKER_04]: I love, I love Easter baptismal.
19:45
[SPEAKER_03]: So if they line up, if the schedule's line up, dude, it's the best.
19:49
[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
19:50
[SPEAKER_03]: And we did, dude, it was a double whammy.
19:52
[SPEAKER_03]: We did Lord supper and baptisms that.
19:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so it was full tilt that day.
19:59
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, so baptisms are an essential part of the local church that are commanded by Christ, right?
20:08
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, not going
20:11
[SPEAKER_04]: deep into it but here's some some some basic talking points that that I have and again keep in mind those of you that are listening it's coming from a perspective of a of someone who at here's the sixteen eighty nine confession and their understanding of scripture right so
20:28
[SPEAKER_04]: my understanding of baptism, my belief of baptism is rooted in scripture and I believe faithfully explained and expanded upon in the sixteen eighty nine.
20:38
[SPEAKER_04]: So in a reform baptist, understanding of baptism, baptism is by immersion.
20:45
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what makes us baptists.
20:46
[SPEAKER_04]: It's in our name, right?
20:48
[SPEAKER_04]: We don't adhere to the sprinkling or or or or
20:55
[SPEAKER_04]: tipping, trickling, trickling, like with a copper, something like that, right?
20:59
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
21:00
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe in immersion, right?
21:02
[SPEAKER_04]: Because of the symbolism that baptism represents.
21:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, baptism represents, and this is where us Baptists would differ with our Presbyterian brothers and sisters.
21:14
[SPEAKER_04]: But we believe that baptism represents being unified to Christ in his death and in his resurrection.
21:21
[SPEAKER_04]: And just as Christ went into death and paid for our sins fully and completely, we identify with Christ's death fully and completely in immersion and then coming out into new life, Christ rising from the dead, conquering sin, Satan and death and cleansing us from those sins.
21:41
[SPEAKER_04]: that representation of now we are identified and unified with Christ in his resurrection.
21:46
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's great hope and great joy in that.
21:50
[SPEAKER_04]: And that symbolism is manifested itself in how we do baptism and why we do baptism.
21:57
[SPEAKER_04]: So because of that because of what we believe about baptism,
22:01
[SPEAKER_04]: and what it represents literally salvation, the heart changing from stone to flesh.
22:06
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe that that should be and can be a sign that has only attributed and given to those that have confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.
22:18
[SPEAKER_04]: We base baptism on a profession of faith.
22:22
[SPEAKER_04]: right that that profession of faith that confessing of that sins, the repenting of sins and believing upon Christ as their Savior must be present in order for baptism to be administered because again of what we believe baptism represents.
22:37
[SPEAKER_04]: We also believe that baptism is not simply just an entrance into the universal church, but the local church that it is entrance into membership of the local church, which is one of the reasons why we won't baptize those who are not seeking to be members of our local church because we believe that baptism is not just being baptized into nothing.
23:04
[SPEAKER_04]: You're not just being baptized into lone wolf Christianity or individual Christianity or we believe that you are baptized into a covenant, into a covenant people, right?
23:15
[SPEAKER_04]: So we will baptize people into our membership.
23:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Now does that mean that anyone who wants to be a member of Redeemer has to be baptized or based on our understanding?
23:27
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
23:28
[SPEAKER_04]: There are some Southern Baptist churches that, because my wife grew up in the Southern Baptist church and she would tell me stories about
23:35
[SPEAKER_04]: some churches that did have that understanding that if you wanted to be a member of that church you had to be baptized in that church that is too hardcore for us we believe that goes beyond the bounds of scripture if your baptism was upon a profession of faith and it was by immersion we believe that to be good and valid and celebrated and yes come into the membership right
23:56
[SPEAKER_04]: But we do not separate church membership and baptism.
23:59
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe that baptism is the entrance into local church membership because you are being covenanted through the death and through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
24:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, here's a question.
24:15
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, we can't spend all of our time on this because we still have to go through the Lord's supper.
24:20
[SPEAKER_04]: But there's a lot of question and debate about when someone is ready for baptism.
24:30
[SPEAKER_04]: How do we know when someone is ready for baptism, right?
24:33
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a general, I think you can't, I don't think you can have a hard and fast rule because I think it very much is an individual thing that requires discernment and wisdom and discipleship on the, on the, in the, definitely with the pastors, right, and the elders of that church.
24:53
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think a general rule that I have
24:56
[SPEAKER_04]: come to that I have found to be beneficial as something that helps those discussions is when it comes to baptism specifically, I want the individual to be able to have a basic understanding.
25:10
[SPEAKER_04]: of what it is, why it's important and what it means, right?
25:15
[SPEAKER_04]: And for that to be able to be unadded by parents or outside influence, right?
25:27
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't mean that that discipleship doesn't happen, but
25:30
[SPEAKER_04]: I want that individual.
25:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I've often said this because this has been a topic of discussion amongst us elders.
25:36
[SPEAKER_04]: It's okay at what age, you know, like at what age are we doing this?
25:40
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it's the age of consent.
25:42
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:44
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I don't think it's so much an age thing is as a comprehension thing in terms of I'm not looking for a for them to to to be fully
25:54
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, if like be able to to describe to me all of the deep theological meanings of this and that, right?
26:01
[SPEAKER_04]: But I want them to be able to come into the water on their own accord.
26:06
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
26:06
[SPEAKER_04]: And not having to be supported by somebody.
26:10
[SPEAKER_04]: Does that make sense?
26:11
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
26:12
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
26:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
26:13
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
26:13
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
26:14
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know that that that differs.
26:16
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, a lot of people differ and have different opinions with that.
26:19
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's a worthwhile discussion.
26:22
[SPEAKER_04]: I have found that a good rule of thumb to start with is can they comprehend what the sacrament is?
26:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Can they partake in the sacrament with a basic understanding?
26:35
[SPEAKER_04]: of what it is, why it's important and what it means, right?
26:41
[SPEAKER_04]: And I have found that there's a lot of very, very smart young folks that are able to do that.
26:50
[SPEAKER_04]: But I do think that that needs to be there.
26:52
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, so moving on, Jack, this is a big one.
26:59
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe as reform Baptist, that the baptism of the believer should pre-seed as in, come before the taking of the Lord's Supper, because if someone is going to be worthy, if you will, to take the Lord's Supper,
27:20
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, who is the Lord Sapper for?
27:22
[SPEAKER_04]: It is for believers.
27:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Those who have been bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.
27:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, what are believers commanded to do?
27:30
[SPEAKER_04]: They're commanded to be baptized upon their professions of faith.
27:34
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
27:34
[SPEAKER_04]: What I have found, Jack, and you can speak on this real quick if you don't mind.
27:38
[SPEAKER_04]: I have found that there are many people that will have different rules for different sacraments.
27:49
[SPEAKER_04]: that the rules that they will have, and it usually involves their children, which is why it's a very important conversation, and one that should be had very graciously and patiently, because there is a lot of emotion that is wrapped up in these conversations, especially when you are thinking of your child's salvation and things like that.
28:08
[SPEAKER_04]: But what I have run across is that often parents will have different rules for their children regarding the Lord's supper than they will baptism.
28:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And we will place the sacraments on different levels of importance of comprehension.
28:24
[SPEAKER_04]: whereas they will allow their very small children to take of the Lord's supper, but are awaiting for a profession of faith and an intellectual comprehension in order to be baptized.
28:37
[SPEAKER_04]: And that to me is a fallacy.
28:41
[SPEAKER_04]: It's something that I think is often prompted by a heart that wants the good for their children.
28:52
[SPEAKER_04]: But what we are effectively doing is creating a hierarchy of the sacraments, which scripture does not do.
28:58
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
28:59
[SPEAKER_04]: And creating different rules for different sacraments.
29:01
[SPEAKER_04]: That's my thought as a reform Baptist.
29:05
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you think, Jack?
29:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I actually pretty good?
29:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I off there?
29:09
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't think you're off.
29:10
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's correct.
29:11
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think I'm off in.
29:15
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it's important.
29:16
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, most, I'm trying to remember.
29:22
[SPEAKER_03]: Usually at our church, if you're a believer, you're pretty much welcome at the Lord's supper.
29:32
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no requirement there necessarily.
29:37
[SPEAKER_03]: But I will say that like, yeah, when it comes to an age process, I would agree with you that there needs to be comprehension and understanding of what you're doing.
29:48
[SPEAKER_03]: when you're going into that as well, too.
29:50
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I would agree with you, actually, on what you just said about baptism in the Lord's supper and taking those, if you're not baptized, you can still take the Lord's supper.
30:00
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, yeah, I don't know about that.
30:04
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you raise up a good point because, yeah, as much as
30:11
[SPEAKER_03]: the freak, I think that I think what has to do with it is, and this probably comes in the play too, but if the Lord suffers so frequent at your local church every week, then why not take it?
30:23
[SPEAKER_03]: But it's like, okay, I understand that, but that doesn't mean that you should, right?
30:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Especially if, and yet, and I'm going against the grain here too by saying this, but it's like,
30:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of reform baptists may treat their kids as unbelievers.
30:43
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would like us to rather change our disposition and how we treat our kids too.
30:49
[SPEAKER_03]: Now that doesn't mean that you need to give them communion.
30:52
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying that the fact that they are in your family and that they're hearing the gospel, that they're being taught the things of God, it's something very unique.
31:04
[SPEAKER_03]: and very, I would say a means of grace as well too.
31:10
[SPEAKER_04]: So you're saying you're not a fan of the term viper's and diapers then.
31:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a fan of that either.
31:19
[SPEAKER_03]: As much as a joke that I can laugh at, I don't know, I think we just accentuate like this depravity on so many levels.
31:28
[SPEAKER_03]: But I think we do need to walk it back.
31:32
[SPEAKER_03]: in the fact that your kids are born to you in this family of believers.
31:39
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is a, that is a, that is a soil, that is a good soil to be to land on.
31:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Up versus other places.
31:47
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
31:48
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to, I don't want to go full.
31:51
[SPEAKER_03]: People might be saying jacks turning presbyterian.
31:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Stop it.
31:55
[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no, no.
31:55
[SPEAKER_03]: We're just, we're just nice for format.
31:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
31:59
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not from.
32:00
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the way that you look at the way in which people are born into certain families, it is a means of grace.
32:07
[SPEAKER_03]: The fact that you're born into your Christian family is a means of grace because you're fearing the gospel.
32:12
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's inherent blessing that exists with growing up in a Christian household.
32:20
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to be exposed to the gospel so much more.
32:22
[SPEAKER_04]: You're going to see and understand the joys and the blessings that come from living in a household that believes in Christ, right?
32:32
[SPEAKER_04]: And I can say that without being Presbyterian.
32:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's true.
32:37
[SPEAKER_04]: That's something that I still, I mean, I still agree with my Presbyterian brothers and sisters on.
32:42
[SPEAKER_04]: That aspect is true.
32:43
[SPEAKER_04]: I just don't take it as far to, you know,
32:48
[SPEAKER_04]: blend it with my covenantal theology because of how we define those things.
32:54
[SPEAKER_04]: But it is a true thing.
32:57
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that a lot of reformed Baptists would do well to
33:04
[SPEAKER_04]: think more highly of their children than perhaps they do, at least in the ways that we talk about it.
33:13
[SPEAKER_04]: Because again, I understand the sentiment, vipers and diapers, and seeing the depravity in your children at a young age, like any parent understands that and can see that for sure.
33:23
[SPEAKER_04]: I get that.
33:25
[SPEAKER_04]: But children are blessing.
33:28
[SPEAKER_04]: And parents have the immense blessing.
33:33
[SPEAKER_04]: of being able to raise their children in the light of the gospel.
33:37
[SPEAKER_04]: And something that's really beneficial for those kids to see is every Sunday their mom and dad and I guess let's just let's just hop right into Lord supper right, seeing their parents and perhaps their older siblings who have been baptized.
33:54
[SPEAKER_04]: taking of the Lord's supper and seeing like, oh, I'm not taking the Lord's supper.
33:59
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is that?
34:01
[SPEAKER_04]: What's the difference?
34:03
[SPEAKER_04]: Why can you have that and I can't have that, right?
34:07
[SPEAKER_04]: Some parents will be in that situation and feel bad for their kids and in an attempt to make it so that they're not left out or that they're not feeling excluded on a good thing
34:23
[SPEAKER_04]: will allow their children to take communion.
34:27
[SPEAKER_04]: And I understand the mentality behind it, I would argue however that you are actually
34:36
[SPEAKER_04]: causing more damage to that child's comprehension and understanding of the importance of the sacraments and doing that instead of letting that distinction be a reality.
34:52
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's sit in that distinction for a little bit and let's talk about why your older sister is taking communion.
34:59
[SPEAKER_04]: and why you're not.
35:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Why mom and dad are eating the bread and drinking the wine, but you're not yet.
35:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it's because this is for people who believe in Jesus.
35:11
[SPEAKER_04]: This is for people who have repented of their sins.
35:14
[SPEAKER_04]: And we trust in Jesus.
35:16
[SPEAKER_04]: And then when we do that, we get baptized because that means this.
35:19
[SPEAKER_04]: And that means the discipleship opportunities explode.
35:23
[SPEAKER_04]: And when we keep that distinction uncomfortable, though it might be,
35:30
[SPEAKER_04]: When we keep it intact because it gives the ability and the opportunity to explain these things to your kids, which is why we have baptism preceding the Lord's Supper and why we have the same standards for the sacraments that we do and we don't make exceptions for one versus the other.
35:53
[SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, we mind as well.
35:56
[SPEAKER_04]: We mind as well just hop into the Lord's Supper at this point.
35:59
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously, we've already talked about.
36:01
[SPEAKER_04]: It's for baptized believers only.
36:04
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe that to be true because we believe that it is something that only Christians should be partaking in.
36:12
[SPEAKER_04]: And we believe that Christians are those that have repented of their sins, trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and been baptized upon a profession of faith.
36:20
[SPEAKER_04]: Now before we move any farther,
36:23
[SPEAKER_04]: I can hear what people are saying, so you believe Presbyterians are Christians.
36:27
[SPEAKER_04]: You believe anyone who's been sprinkled or baptized upon their parents' profession aren't Christians.
36:37
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
36:38
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not what we believe.
36:40
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's a classic attack against reform Baptist theology.
36:45
[SPEAKER_04]: and that is now what we believe we believe and and I will say this plainly we believe that our present and this is again let's remember this is coming from someone who I this former presby here card card carrying presby right fully committed fully convinced
37:04
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe that our Presbyterian brothers and sisters are in error in their understanding of Scripture.
37:12
[SPEAKER_04]: We would disagree with their definition of covenantal theology and how that has worked out in their practice, but we do not believe that they are in sin.
37:24
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's a very important distinction.
37:26
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack is that you can be wrong and not in sin.
37:31
[SPEAKER_04]: You can definitely be wrong and in sin.
37:33
[SPEAKER_04]: But it is possible to be wrong and not in sin.
37:43
[SPEAKER_03]: Correct.
37:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
37:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Very true.
37:45
[SPEAKER_03]: No, that was a good distinction that you made because I would agree with that.
37:48
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, especially the language that's being used.
37:50
[SPEAKER_03]: We would say in air.
37:52
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
37:53
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, because we believe many people are in air and they're in their theology.
37:58
[SPEAKER_04]: We would say that dispensations are in air.
38:00
[SPEAKER_04]: in their theology.
38:01
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to say being a dispensational means that you're in sin.
38:05
[SPEAKER_04]: That would be an over-extension of Christian liberty.
38:10
[SPEAKER_04]: That's another doctrine that we take very seriously.
38:13
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a form of justice.
38:15
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe that the Lord's Supper is for baptized believers, baptized upon a profession of faith.
38:21
[SPEAKER_04]: We also believe in the importance of, and this is one that's often debated within the realm of Chris and Dumb, but we take very seriously as we're formed after just fencing the table.
38:33
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, when we talk about fencing the table, what are some aspects of that?
38:40
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I kind of I kind of dealt with this not too long ago maybe about while I would say maybe about a couple months ago or so Then thing the table is something that you were trying to protect I would say the integrity of Communion and what it means against people who
39:05
[SPEAKER_03]: are not who appear to be Christians, but are not.
39:09
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
39:11
[SPEAKER_03]: And really don't understand why they're doing what they're doing.
39:16
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I had this occasion happen not too long ago.
39:21
[SPEAKER_03]: where a guy took communion literally like and and we say this from a stage is like hey you go to one of the tables a person there is going to walk you through the elements is going to say something about
39:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Why we do what we do and then we partake together and then this guy just like takes the elements takes two steps back.
39:46
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the it's the bread or the cracker that we have and drinks the wine drops the thing in and it just leaves and I'm like
39:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
39:58
[SPEAKER_03]: So it makes you wonder that kind of posture if they're doing things performatively, if they grown up in a place of performance based faith that really hasn't hit them or if it's something else.
40:18
[SPEAKER_03]: So I would say Fencing a table has to do with the, I would say the authenticity
40:24
[SPEAKER_03]: of the person coming and receiving the Lord's supper is in a correct manner.
40:29
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not talking about the manner that Paul's talking about when some people say, you got to get your mind right before you come up and take the supper.
40:36
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
40:37
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I think obviously like you're already having the correct mind.
40:45
[SPEAKER_03]: If you're a believer and if you're having the disposition of open hands of faith to the table.
40:51
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
40:53
[SPEAKER_03]: I think what that more along the lines is talking about is maybe in what we're talking about in fencing the table too like if somebody's coming in the as a as a as a person under maybe maybe ways I've seen this done to where people want to say that they're Christians but they're really not Christians
41:17
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
41:18
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, right.
41:19
[SPEAKER_03]: I had an interesting situation in a previous church where two women, who were in a relationship, who wanted to be men together, wanted to partake at a Lord supper.
41:32
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
41:33
[SPEAKER_03]: and we literally had to have sessions with them in private and say, you can't do that.
41:38
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
41:39
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
41:40
[SPEAKER_03]: And they said, well, we want to be baptized.
41:42
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, well, why?
41:44
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
41:45
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, if you're not, if your whole thing is to make a facade,
41:52
[SPEAKER_03]: and a mockery of the faith, then why you even do this?
41:54
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
41:56
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
41:56
[SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.
41:58
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's a place where you can, I mean, that's a huge, I mean, that was a huge ministry opportunity to deep dive with these gals and talk to them.
42:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
42:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Why are you making these decisions that you're making?
42:10
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of it had to do with abuse
42:13
[SPEAKER_03]: going unchecked by family members, having that coupled to with a faith tradition as well.
42:21
[SPEAKER_03]: And then thinking that that was equivalent to not being good.
42:29
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
42:30
[SPEAKER_03]: And so when they saw people that loved them and cared for them, we loved and cared for them, but we would literally say, like, we don't want you.
42:38
[SPEAKER_03]: partaking in the Lord's Upper, and we'll fence the table because of us.
42:42
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's a time in which you have to protect the integrity of what Christ did when he established that ordinance or sacrament.
42:55
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and it's only for we would say that it's only for believers.
43:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
43:00
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
43:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's the pastor's job.
43:02
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe when you take the Lord's supper and a Jack and I believe like it's our conviction that you should you should take it weekly.
43:10
[SPEAKER_04]: We believe that you know every time you gather we believe that's in reference to the Lord's day, right?
43:19
[SPEAKER_04]: when you're taking it so often, right?
43:21
[SPEAKER_04]: You're often going to have individuals in your church that you either don't know or that aren't part of your membership, right?
43:28
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you don't practice a a a close to communion, meaning only members of your church can take the Lord's upper.
43:35
[SPEAKER_04]: If you practice what's called a close communion, which means that we are fencing the table, saying that only those
43:46
[SPEAKER_04]: who have been baptized upon the profession of faith, who confess Jesus Christ in their Lord and Savior, are the worthy recipients of this sacrament.
43:56
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what we're saying.
43:58
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's a large aspect of fencing that table is that you are very clear on that Sunday morning.
44:05
[SPEAKER_04]: This is for believers.
44:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll often say if you're an unbeliever here, if you're unsure of your salvation, if you are unsure of these things, we very much are happy that you're here.
44:17
[SPEAKER_04]: We thank you that you're here, but we ask that you let this moment pass.
44:23
[SPEAKER_04]: and and and and dwell on it think about what we're saying here the importance of and what it represents right and that's that's a really important thing to do and Paul does that right Paul Paul speaks in first Corinthians eleven obviously like it's a passage we'd probably hear every sunday if you're taking uh... though the lord supper races whoever eats this bread or drinks drinks of the cup of the lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the lord let a person examine himself then
44:52
[SPEAKER_04]: and so each of the bread and drink of the cup for anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body and drinks will drink judgment upon himself and that is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.
45:05
[SPEAKER_04]: So there's consequences, there's real consequences to engaging in this sacrament in what he calls an unworthy manner.
45:13
[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the main ways, perhaps the main way to do that is to do so as an unbeliever, because it's not for you, right?
45:22
[SPEAKER_04]: That truth that the sacraments represent
45:25
[SPEAKER_04]: Right?
45:26
[SPEAKER_04]: Christ's body being broken for you.
45:28
[SPEAKER_04]: His blood being spilled for you.
45:30
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not a sign that can be administered to you because you aren't a Christian, right?
45:37
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's fencing the tables of very important aspect of the Lord supper and something that we should diligently do as pastors every single Sunday.
45:47
[SPEAKER_04]: What's
45:49
[SPEAKER_04]: another important aspect and I think this is part of fencing is not only when I am when I am
45:59
[SPEAKER_04]: When I'm tasked with doing the Lord's supper, on the Sunday morning, I view fencing as a couple, as including a couple different things.
46:11
[SPEAKER_04]: One, as we've already said, I'm fencing it from unbelievers.
46:15
[SPEAKER_04]: This is not something that you should be engaging with because you are not a believer, right?
46:22
[SPEAKER_04]: But what I'm also doing is I'm fencing it from self-righteous believers.
46:28
[SPEAKER_04]: that believe that they can enter into this sacrament, engage in this sacrament, upon their own merit.
46:39
[SPEAKER_04]: Something that I'm very, very careful to do is to make sure that we have an correct understanding as Christians of how we are to approach the table.
46:52
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you approaching the table?
46:56
[SPEAKER_04]: with a hotty attitude, trusting in your own ability to make yourself clean enough to get to the table.
47:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Are you trusting in the good week that you've had?
47:13
[SPEAKER_04]: Thinking, yeah, I've had a good week.
47:15
[SPEAKER_04]: I've repented enough.
47:17
[SPEAKER_04]: I am worthy of the table.
47:19
[SPEAKER_04]: I can take it, right?
47:21
[SPEAKER_04]: That's an incorrect way to approach the Lord's Supper.
47:26
[SPEAKER_04]: That's not how we should be approaching the Lord's table, right?
47:30
[SPEAKER_04]: We should be approaching the Lord's table understanding the need that we have for it, right?
47:37
[SPEAKER_04]: Often say like the Lord's table is for sinners.
47:40
[SPEAKER_04]: It's for those that understand the need that they have and how the truths that this sacrament proclaims have covered the need that you have, right?
47:54
[SPEAKER_04]: I often will read the Heidelberg question eighty-one.
48:01
[SPEAKER_04]: It asks the question, who should come to the Lord's table?
48:05
[SPEAKER_04]: And I love this.
48:08
[SPEAKER_04]: It says, those who are displeased with themselves because of their sins, but who nevertheless trust that their sins are parted, and that their remaining weakness is covered by the suffering and the death of Christ, and who also desire more and more to strengthen their faith and to lead a better life.
48:28
[SPEAKER_04]: That I have found flies in the face of the self-righteousness that I used to have when I came to the table.
48:37
[SPEAKER_04]: Right because there's I remember growing up thinking like I know the week that I had I know how much my pride has been present this week how much I've I've lusted how much I've I've been driven by my anger
48:53
[SPEAKER_04]: like I come to the table like a beaten dog every week and I need something like I come empty to that table and I need to be filled with something that I do not have the ability to do on my own.
49:13
[SPEAKER_04]: That's why we come to the table to be filled to be reminded.
49:18
[SPEAKER_04]: And that Jack is why we are not mere memorialists.
49:21
[SPEAKER_04]: We do not subscribe to a memorialist understanding of the Lord's supper, right?
49:28
[SPEAKER_03]: Very true.
49:29
[SPEAKER_04]: That's that to me and and you can speak on this like I think I kind of grew up with a strictly memorialist understanding of the Lord supper and that it is it is purely a remembrance that is all that is happening here right that we engage with the Lord supper and it is only for the purpose of remembering the death of Christ.
49:53
[SPEAKER_04]: And there is no amount of spiritual sustenance that happens from that.
50:00
[SPEAKER_04]: It is a purely memorial that we are engaging in.
50:10
[SPEAKER_03]: Why Josh and I would go away from the memorialist view is primarily because
50:18
[SPEAKER_03]: we would say that historically reformed theology.
50:23
[SPEAKER_03]: So going outside the realms of reformed Baptist theology and then coming into reformed Baptist theology, I think it's important for us to look back on the contributions of the Reformation.
50:35
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't think Martin Luther necessarily got it right.
50:41
[SPEAKER_03]: and that's fine.
50:45
[SPEAKER_04]: It's fine.
50:45
[SPEAKER_03]: The Lord is doing awesome ways, but yeah, it's so good to him for all of your theology.
50:50
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so funny because a lot of people think that Martin Luther is more Calvinist than John Calvin was.
50:55
[SPEAKER_03]: And John Calvin had a better understanding of the word, so I've heard that Martin Luther did.
51:04
[SPEAKER_03]: So John Calvin has, I would say, his version of the Lord's Supper is more like what we would call as a means of spiritual nourishment with Christ or spiritual presence we would say.
51:22
[SPEAKER_03]: So as the Catholics would say, the would adhere to transobstantiation, which means that when the priest's physical presence, when the priest takes the bread and the wine and consecrate it, that is now the physical, the body of blood of critical.
51:45
[SPEAKER_03]: in which we would say, actually, no, that's not.
51:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and the reason we would say that is because that is a Christological Heresy.
51:53
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
51:53
[SPEAKER_04]: And that it requires Christ to be sacrificed again and again and again instead of once and for all as scriptures say and we confess, right?
52:03
[SPEAKER_03]: Which we would say to mass represents that, right?
52:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
52:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
52:07
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
52:08
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
52:08
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think this is important for us to understand that, um, yeah, we're rejecting
52:19
[SPEAKER_03]: We would say also that the Lord's Supper is this visible representation of the gospel.
52:29
[SPEAKER_03]: So that it's confirming the promises of salvation and fostering gratitude for God's grace.
52:36
[SPEAKER_03]: We are not saying that as a physical presence, but as spiritual one, I just talked about.
52:45
[SPEAKER_03]: Zwingling, who also kind of was a proponent of more of this more realistic viewpoint, I would say.
52:54
[SPEAKER_03]: We differ from his view of the supper as just merely symbolic.
52:58
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
52:59
[SPEAKER_03]: And arguing that Christ is spiritual in the presence of the Lord's supper where believers are spiritually elevated to
53:08
[SPEAKER_04]: a union with him in that time which is which is why we call it communion because in that time in that moment you are invited to commune with Christ to take on to be
53:25
[SPEAKER_04]: to be filled with the spiritual nourishment that comes from Christ right and to understand and to know the gospel is true and it is sweet and when you come to that table empty and ragged from a horrible week you are filled up with the truth and the hope of the gospel.
53:48
[SPEAKER_04]: because of what you were being reminded of, not just Christ's death, but his victory, his victory over death, his victory over your sin, and over your shame, that all of that is covered in the broken body and the spilled blood of Jesus Christ.
54:05
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's not simply us attending a funeral.
54:10
[SPEAKER_04]: We are attending a celebration
54:15
[SPEAKER_04]: and a proclamation in this table that Christ has won and in that victory we are spiritually nourished and filled up.
54:25
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, this is why we have it.
54:26
[SPEAKER_04]: This is why I advocate for it every week.
54:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
54:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I need that every week.
54:31
[SPEAKER_03]: I can't wait once a month for that with that understanding of the Lord's supper, which Calvin did pur pur pur pur pur to advocate for, which is once a week as well.
54:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
54:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
54:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
54:43
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I understand the memorialist view having that once a month.
54:47
[SPEAKER_04]: That's heavy.
54:49
[SPEAKER_04]: That's heavy.
54:50
[SPEAKER_04]: I understand only being able to take that once a month, like having your your Lord's Day service is bookended with a purely memorialist view of the Lord's supper.
55:01
[SPEAKER_04]: I understand that I don't only feel the probably take that once a month.
55:06
[SPEAKER_04]: But having this understanding, this spiritual presence, this real presence, understanding.
55:12
[SPEAKER_04]: of the gospel in the Lord's supper.
55:15
[SPEAKER_04]: And what that does for my heart every single week, what I'm reminded of in that table every single week, dude, it is the best way to cap off
55:29
[SPEAKER_04]: the the the the the the preaching of the word right we have just we have just heard of God's great provision for us in Christ through the preaching now let's feast on it together like there's it's there's nothing better like I need I need that man I need it like I need it every week and
55:58
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's really a really vital and important part and of a liturgical service is I believe that you need that Lord supper every single week.
56:10
[SPEAKER_04]: And I like having, you know, different churches will do it at different times.
56:14
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
56:14
[SPEAKER_04]: I know I think Redeemer in St.
56:18
[SPEAKER_04]: Charles.
56:18
[SPEAKER_04]: I think they do it before the sermon.
56:20
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it's kind of near the front of their service, which is cool.
56:22
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's that's again, there's no real rule as to where it where it can be.
56:28
[SPEAKER_04]: I personally like it at the end.
56:31
[SPEAKER_04]: like I like culminating as a response as a response yes to what we have heard right you have you you have seen and you have heard now taste and see that the Lord is good right and is in the in the Lord's upper so
56:46
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, and I think that the saints need that encouragement.
56:49
[SPEAKER_04]: They need the encouragement of the sacraments.
56:52
[SPEAKER_04]: As often as we can give it to them, we need the reminder.
56:57
[SPEAKER_04]: We need that sustenance and that hope every single week.
57:01
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, sacraments are great, man.
57:06
[SPEAKER_04]: I love him.
57:07
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
57:08
[SPEAKER_04]: Any last minute thoughts on baptism or the Lord's supper before we close out?
57:12
[SPEAKER_04]: Episode three hundred, dude.
57:16
[SPEAKER_03]: No, I think we pretty much covered them all to be quite honest.
57:21
[SPEAKER_04]: That sounds great.
57:23
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, Jack and my friend for the three hundredth time in the reformatory history once you get us out of here, my friend.
57:30
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, if you appreciate Josh Nye's continuous, to make the local church central to the Brewer's life here on the reformatory, you can drop us a message, an episode idea, a question comment concern, all at our sociable platforms, if you will, the Metavers, the Facebook, if you will.
57:50
[SPEAKER_03]: The instant gram goes well with chocolate and marshmallows, and also
57:56
[SPEAKER_03]: Apparently heresy.
58:00
[SPEAKER_03]: And always the interesting, the dastardly sociable formerly known as Twitter X. You can find us at the tag at all of the sociable platforms at the tag at Performatory Cod.
58:15
[SPEAKER_03]: Josh, you can tell the lovely people how they might support us further in our endeavors.
58:20
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
58:21
[SPEAKER_04]: While there are multiple ways you can do that, you can head out over to YouTube if you want to watch these episodes as well as listen to it.
58:26
[SPEAKER_04]: Make sure to hit the little bell.
58:28
[SPEAKER_04]: Subscribe, comment, hit the little bell for notifications.
58:31
[SPEAKER_04]: That'd be really cool.
58:32
[SPEAKER_04]: And help the podcast out to more people.
58:35
[SPEAKER_04]: If you feel like sharing this series, that'd be really, really cool.
58:38
[SPEAKER_04]: We have a Patreon.
58:41
[SPEAKER_04]: Patreon's awesome.
58:43
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot of cool stuff happening over there, new people joined in all the time, and it's cheap.
58:47
[SPEAKER_04]: It's five dollars.
58:48
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all it is.
58:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Five dollar Holla to join the pod luck as we call it.
58:52
[SPEAKER_04]: And a lot of neat stuff happening over there.
58:54
[SPEAKER_04]: You get bonus apps, you get this app early, get exclusive content sent to you right over there.
59:00
[SPEAKER_04]: That's really, really cool.
59:02
[SPEAKER_04]: And that'd be awesome if you guys would hop over there.
59:05
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, last reminder, again, huge thank you.
59:09
[SPEAKER_04]: to Broken Warf in the Pactons for supporting the reformatory for three hundred episodes.
59:15
[SPEAKER_04]: Jack, this is a momentous, this is big dude.
59:19
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll see how, you know, it might go for another three hundred, or it might just go steeply downhill right up for this.
59:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Time will tell, not sure, but we will see what happens.
59:33
[SPEAKER_04]: But this was a mammoth of an episode.
59:36
[SPEAKER_04]: Probably should have been in two parts, but nah, nah.
59:40
[SPEAKER_04]: A big special edition for episode three hundred.
59:43
[SPEAKER_04]: If you hop over to the Patreon,
59:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Switch back to that, as we've said before, if you choose to do that, our pledge to you is that your name shall be Hollywood.
59:51
[SPEAKER_04]: Hallowed.
59:53
[SPEAKER_04]: Hallowed through the halls of the podcast, that is our pledge to you.
59:56
[SPEAKER_04]: We thank you all for listening to this special episode, three hundredth episode of the reformatory.
1:00:01
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for sticking with us.
1:00:03
[SPEAKER_04]: We really appreciate every single one of you that downloads the apps that listens to them that shares them really appreciate all of you.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_04]: We will catch you on episode three-o-one at the next step of the reformatory.