Latest / Conversations with Dad / Less about gender and more about this!
Transcript
- Matthew: Hey Dad. Stanley Brownstein: Hey, how are you? Matthew: Good. So we actually were we were talking a little bit before I hit record and decided to let's put the put the conversation in the audio waves because we were talking about something that I think is relevant to the topic for today, which is this the you know, what does it mean to be a man in a way that is I mean, there's a lot of ways to talk about what does it mean to be a man. There's a lot of ways to talk about what it means to be the type of man you want to be for your family and for your kids. and you know, for me, one of the things that comes up as I think about that is like it's not just saying the things, it's it's doing the things that we expect and hope that align with the values and and lessons that we share with our kids. And And so this relates to something we were starting to talk about with this run that I'm trying to organize at my school. So Sri Stanley Brownstein: You Matthew: Sri Tri Moy, is am I pronouncing his name right? Stanley Brownstein: I mean, that's how I understood it to be, yes. Matthew: Okay. Yeah, I just don't say it out loud very much. I just read it. So Stanley Brownstein: I just didn't that too. Matthew: so so he has he does this transcendental run that he set up back when he was moving his body, I guess in in the seventies. that's around this one block in Elmhurst. And my understanding is is he's created this this like running adventure And this challenge to help people experience just doing unbelievable things because they put their mind to it. So he set up the structure where it was starting in August, I think, and then a and then the race ends officially. Well, the race ends when you hit three thousand one hundred and fifty miles. But the rules are you have to it's only around this loop, and the loop is I want to say a quarter mile. And the race starts each day at 8 a.m. and ends at 10 p.m. And you know, one of not obviously most people most people don't run probably more than 100 miles over the course of this stretch of time. But one of the things that was always interesting to me about it, and I've read a few things that supports this, but in any case, this is like my my takeaway. You know, given that it's in this very small contained loop, there's there's some there's some comfort, there's some repetition there that can kinda make it maybe a little bit more accessible for people. But what ends up happening is, you know, by doing small bits with regularity, there's this compounding effect where, you know, if you run and walk a couple hours each day and you keep track of the miles, like that's gonna That's going to turn into a lot of miles over several months. And so there's this, there's this lesson of like, you know, I can do hard things. There's this lesson about, well, if I if I stick with it, I can I can achieve a lot. I can literally run or walk over long distances. and coming back to that idea of like sticking with it, you know, I it's There's a big difference if you stick with it for one day a week versus if you stick with it five days a week, it literally will add up to a drastically different amount. And there's just something so concrete and simple and straightforward about the the metric of effort being like miles and distance. And it's something that most people can ro kind of wrap their heads around. So there's there's a few like takeaways in terms of like why this is significant and interesting for my my my community and specifically for parents, but I wanna s pause for a moment and kinda hear your thoughts or questions about why I'm bringing this up. Stanley Brownstein: Well, first I just want to address that specifically. First Matthew: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: of all, what's interesting is that there are a couple of things. One is I just read recently, and something I've heard a bit in the last few years, but with this type of information, I feel the more I hear about it, it means that the more it's being addressed and perhaps is correct, they were talking about exercise. And it was Matthew: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: saying, actually, I believe they called it exercise snacks. Matthew: Mm. Stanley Brownstein: And it was saying how, you know, again, you know, sometimes you hear what it takes to be, what exercise is necessary to be fit. And it's just like, you know, it's like you have to devote your life to it. almost. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: But what this was saying is like, you just like, you know, 30 seconds, one minute, three minutes, multiple times during the day when you have the opportunity to do something that will, you know, make you a little bit breathless, it has an impact. And not Matthew: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: only does it have an impact, but it has a comparable impact to people who spend you know, put in that hour every single day. So I thought that was that's kind of related, I feel. Another thing which is kind of interested too, in terms of what you were talking about regarding how much you put it into it, but the perseverance. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: There's a, you know, there's a, brought out a scenario where You know, if you're in New York and you're heading to California and you Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: have the best equipment and you just head north, you'll never get there. But if you head west and you just keep on going, you'll Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: get there. So perseverance, persistence, keeping at it. Matthew: With the with the right intention. Because that's that's the whole thing. I mean that's what Stanley Brownstein: Well, yeah, well. Matthew: I'm hearing what you you're saying, like you can't just say, I wanna go to California and I'm gonna walk twenty miles a day and and I'm gonna walk even when I'm tired, it that all means nothing if if you're not paying attention to where you are and you're heading north. Stanley Brownstein: Exactly. all right, so that's my little tangent, but related to which your introduction. All right. Matthew: Yeah. Yeah. so I think one of the things that excites me about this, kind of to to what you were saying there, is like we talk about asking our kids to be perseverant. We talk about asking our kids to push through hard things. And you know, I think I think it's okay for adults to not always walk the walk. Sometimes as a parent you're gonna say things that you don't you're gonna give you're gonna share lessons with kids that you're not necessarily gonna practice yourself. and I do think that there's I think the lessons can be that much more meaningful if you are actively learning and trying your own version of growth yourself, which I think is something that I just remember always being super, super clear to me with you and mom. Like you guys were always on. some path of improvement or growth. And it to me it wasn't necessarily always like what the what it was, but just it was always like that was an intent. you know, and so when I think about my own position as a as a principal with the power to like, you know, put something on the calendar and say, let's come together for something. This idea of bringing people together, and this is where this idea ultimately is: bringing people together on December 19th, close to the shortest day of the year. This is a Saturday. And we've got this point two five mile loop around our school. And the idea is folks will let us know when they're gonna be here to And there'll be food and warm drinks and hopefully some like other fun things, maybe some music, some cheering. But between the hours of eight o'clock and four thirty, you have the opportunity to put in some steps and maybe do the most amount of distance you ever done in a day. Or maybe you do your goal, which is, you know, I haven't I haven't walked five miles or run five miles in years. Today I'm gonna do that. and then your kids being able to see you do that. Like set a goal and do it. and on and so I'm still trying to think about exactly what the framing is gonna be for my community and I definitely want to hear more from you about I don't know how you how how you might frame it for the community. But then specifically as as related to this con or at least my proposed topic, I this idea of yeah, like the the role if you if you're if you're trying to teach your your young man, your boy, like what it means to be a man, you know, obviously there's words, but then there's also actions. And then there's words that follow those actions. And so Whatever this framing is, I think for me has something to do and is relevant to that concept as well. so I'll leave that, I'll I'll volley back to you to see what comes up. Stanley Brownstein: Okay, I mean, it's an interesting concept. But it's an interesting issue that you're bringing up. But I first I just kind of want to back up a little in terms of not knowing that you were applying this to a specific scenario. And I might have just come up after this talk with this person, which is fine. Matthew: Yeah, yeah. Stanley Brownstein: which is kind of the meaningfulness of any of this eyebrow BS. But let me just, so I just kind of want to get this out of the way. Why are you even framing this in a way that, it, framing it in a way that involves being a man? Because what's interesting Matthew: I Stanley Brownstein: from my, and I kind of brought this out when you first brought up the subject. That is what's happening a lot in nowadays with you youngins. No, I'm just kidding. Matthew: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: Well, relatively is that things are being things are being defined and labeled and categorized. Now, I appreciate that that may well be necessary because Otherwise, people may not understand what the issue is because it had been taken for granted and people had been undermined Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: or abused because it hadn't been. But why is that even? Why are you categorizing it with that way? Matthew: I'm categorizing that way, honestly more in response to what I think you just said, actually. The fact that it is being categorized and is being questioned. Stanley Brownstein: So what does that mean to you, I guess? so, all right, all right, so. Matthew: Because I just I think that there's a I think that there is some increased doubt and concern that we're not raising our our young boys right. Stanley Brownstein: And do you think that's because then that's tied up with how we define manhood? Matthew: I think that it's tied Stanley Brownstein: Are we raising our young girls correctly? Matthew: not no, not necessarily at all. Stanley Brownstein: So is it necessarily because of that gender characteristic as well? Matthew: So why am I saying why am I making it about boys and manhood versus just raising kids in general? Is that what the question is? No, no, I noticed that where you're Stanley Brownstein: Right, and I'm not questioning, but it's not as if you're the first person I'm hearing about Matthew: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: this in this culture that we're in nowadays. Matthew: I think I think because well, I I guess we could you could you could and maybe you will say it's the wrong question. I think the thing that I'm noting is that it is My my sense is over time and this changes, what you know, what it what it means to be successful and respected and the criteria around that, there was more consensus about that in previous generations. And statistically Boys are way worse off than they've ever been before, whether it's metrices around depression, job satisfaction, satisfaction with their lives, Earning power, which earning power is a little skewed because in a great way, women are earning more, so there's only maybe so much money to go around. So maybe that's that's a data point that's looked at a little bit too much. But Yeah, I think I think that and and I think that there's been an interrogation of what what success should look like and sound like and what does it mean to be You know, what does it mean to be a boy? What should it mean to be a boy? I'm not and I'm not even talking about like gender identity. I mean like it or the question of like people expressing their gender in different ways. Like more concretely, if we're talking about like the characteristics of a boy, and you're like you know, like you have some people like back in the day I feel like people would say, yeah, that that boy is like physical and it and that's okay. And I think increasingly it's like There's some people that will say, you know, why are we just saying boys are physical? Or saying like boys need to be less physical. So it's like There's multiple conversations happening at the same time. There's the we shouldn't categorize people, and then which raise which, you know, stirs up which stirs up questions, stirs up doubt, also stirs up probably some good conversations. But at the same time, there's another thread which is well, we are categorizing and The categor the category of boys and men, the characteristics that historically have been associated are problematic and messed up. And that stirs up questions, doubts, curiosity, probably some good questi good good questions and good conversations, but ultimately it leaves a lot of question marks. So that's why I think that's for me why I'm interested in hearing your perspectives about about that as, you know, and there's there's I think there's opportunities to comment it from like a cultural perspective, like why are people talking about this? There's there's also the how are we thinking about our own personal interactions with with boys in our life. and yeah, at least that's a little bit more context for how I'm thinking about this topic. Stanley Brownstein: Okay, so I do feel that, so I'm just, not going to, there are a couple things I can say. One is that I think there is this ironic, kind of issue where because there have been many kind of prejudices and assumptions and dehumanizations based upon how we categorize gender and preferences and you know where you know when I was when I was growing up and working with a special population, retard was the word. And Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: all of a sudden retard is, you you can't say that, but it's kind of like. Matthew: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: By not saying that, it changes how people feel. So they put so much emphasis on these categories. And me looking, I never felt... when I called someone retarded that it was a derogatory frame. Now that I have to search for the correct word, it's kind of annoying, but in no way does it change how I look at that population. I mean, that's how I learned it. And now you have that in so many different categories and it really doesn't. I don't. It's kind of like either. You know you're preaching to the choir and it doesn't matter. Or you're creating rules for people that are resentful about it. I mean. I mean Matthew: So what are some things? Stanley Brownstein: really when it came to mine is. The whole thing with AI. And Matthew: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: they're using the word agents. And that's like, that's a word that makes you think of people, makes you think of a conscious entity doing something. Like to me, that is more damaging than just about any phrase that's going to affect our culture and civilization. I mean, personifying a machine. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: So that's just something I had to kind of address relative to this. So I think the problem that we're having with I think there is really an issue that's being identified with boys, with men, and with young girls for that matter too, which is kind of related. And I look at it as an issue where you have a nature nurture where in prehistoric times, Men were stronger. Women were gave birth and were stuck there, but yet everybody had to eat. you had a, men were out there because they were able to be and women were homebound and creating that environment for... nurturing the family. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: As time went on, that became less necessary, but it was kind of a habit that was entrenched. know, like if you allow someone a liberty, it's really hard to take them away. So it's Matthew: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: kind of like men were, you know, the strong and in control and women, you know, were stuck in the home. And that was something, you know, it persisted because again, it was a liberty that was established and it's really hard to change it. You know, it's hard to change it now. You you let your kid do something once, you know, and then you pull it back arbitrarily and it's like, good luck to you, right? Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: So I think we're kind of stuck still from the effects of that. I think that... we're still also entering an age where how we categorize something becomes almost more important than the reality of what it is. So, you know, this whole gender identity and all that kind of stuff is also becoming exerted or overcompensated for. So you have... toxic masculinity, is not a good word nowadays either, that's kind of, you know, that all. So all of that is, and you have women who are buying into it also. So it's, but it's not, it's not really, I think it's not a good thing to focus on in terms of how you want to relate to one's maleness and how to raise a child in terms of gender identity for what it's worth. When I say gender identity, it's terms of just there being a male child and having a female child. And I think you touched upon it. I I think really what it comes down to is there obviously is natural differences between men and women. It doesn't mean that if a male or a female doesn't fit into that mold, there's anything wrong with it. But there is a correlation that fits most of the time. you know, we're speaking generally. And I think kind of what it comes down to is you have a goal in life, you have a standard in life, you have an ethics in life, and you express it as a male or a female. If you're a male or a female, or you express it how best you can, but it's kind of like a rose by any other color, know, smells as, you know, it's kind of you're a rose, you're gonna be a rose, you know? If you're a male, you're going to be a male. If you're a female, you're to be female. doesn't, but what's important is how you manifest that behavior. that, you know, not the behavior of being a male or a female, but how you manifest the behavior of being a human being as a male or a female, or as someone who is bisexual or transsexual or whatever it is. The important thing is that you're being a human being and you're respecting other human beings. You're trying to you know, understand them, being sympathetic to them, trying to love them, trying to love yourself, regardless of what you are. And if you're a male, you're going to express it in your maleness. If you're a female, you're going to express it in your femaleness. And again, if you're between the two, you're going to express it that way. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: I mean, so I think you want you can zero in more on the topical issue that you were addressing if you would like. If I got off the track. Matthew: No, I mean I mean it I think it I think it gives good context for maybe some of the things that takes takes us away from having productive conversations about what matters. That's Stanley Brownstein: Like was thinking about the Cornell situation. Like a male in that situation. should have said, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you abusing these people? Why are you being a bully? Why are you doing this to, you know? That would be a male Matthew: Red. Stanley Brownstein: thing to do. A female thing to do, someone might have done that if they were female, but another female thing to do would be to totally comfort and support and encourage that person and have their back while they expressed it. mean, I could be wrong in the way I'm expressing that male-female difference, but it's that kind of thing. In both cases, they're Matthew: Interview. Right. Stanley Brownstein: standing up, they're having courage, but they're doing it in the different ways that they're able to. Matthew: Right. Right. Yeah. And the like just the big thing that I'm hearing, whether you are a male or a female, or if you're someone who doesn't buy into these constructs, you gave two positive examples of ways to respond. And so the question, the more important question is, you know, to the to an individual kid or to an individual person, it's like Both are both might be hard for you to do, but which one maybe feels more authentic to you? I guess is and or Stanley Brownstein: Exactly. Matthew: maybe what also is maybe and maybe that's not even the right question. Maybe it's like what do you think what do you think that that person needed in that moment? And they you know, they might say a couple different things. They're like w you know, what what would you do? because part of it is part of it too is like It's not just about what you feel comfortable doing, it's what what's needed in the moment. There's a little bit of both kinda have to feed into each other. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like as a human being in a community of human beings, Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: you know, how will you stand up for your neighbor? And based upon that, you know, is your goal in life? Like, how do you define a meaningful life? You know, what are your values? Matthew: And as a society, you you need a range of those. You need a range a a range of not necessarily a range of values, but you need a a range of different ways to express those and support and reinforce those values, right? Like you need the person comforting, you need a person who will say what the fuck. Like you need all of those things in a society. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I have, yeah, I mean, I feel like I just look at, like I feel that I, over time my feminine side, call it that, has evolved. Where I feel the, you know, I felt like based upon my upbringing that parenting was much more, you know, Defining and forcing rules. Matthew: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: And I don't think that was mom's relationship to it. think mom, again, was not that she didn't do that, but it was kind of more nurturing and that kind of stuff. And as I've gotten older, I feel that's as important. And if I'm going to define and enforce rules, I kind of want to do it more with nurturing. mean, so it's not like, but I'm still, different than mom and how we do it. And that's, you know, how that's my maleness, that's her femaleness, but it's in so many ways, it's kind of like the same end, you know, the same goal. We're just going Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: to do it different ways. Matthew: Yeah, and then the question which takes us a little bit farther away from like the the topical idea, which I'm okay with us coming back to that at another another time. because it it's not till December nineteenth. So there's time to have conversations with people about it. but yeah, there there are there are some you know, if you if you zoom out and then you zoom in, there are in the in in the in the midst of all these different conversations, picking apart and revisiting lines that were drawn to distinguish between genders and and what's appropriate and what's not and what's helpful, what's useful. The thing that I always wonder about is like in all of this, are we implicitly valuing or devaluing certain characteristics that and and what kind of effect does that have on society. you know, so there isn't a phrase for toxic femininity femininity, but there is a a phrase for toxic masculinity and s and some of those characteristics, you know, that you would probably call maleness, some some of it expressed can be toxic. if it's towards the wrong aim, but I I wonder if like some of those things are like actually might be, you know, to the right aim are a positive thing, right? Like you don't want you don't want to teach kids to go around saying, what the fuck? But I d I do think that and I find myself actually plugging this in with kids, but I do say like, hey, this is not the time to ask them. You know, if someone's not if someone's disrespecting you You don't have to say, please say something nicer. You know, or is everything okay? Like sometimes that's the right thing to to ask. But it's okay to say, stop. You know, like you can change your tone, you can raise your voice. Stanley Brownstein: So I think that comes down to we are a lot, are kind of... I think. You know what it's almost like? Matthew: Okay. Stanley Brownstein: That book you gave me, on the, you know, the teachers in South America. Matthew: What's Stanley Brownstein: the, you know, the. you know, how they responded to the... you know, the church, you know, becoming, you know, instructing them, being their instructors and judging their value as students. Matthew: pedagogy of the pressed. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, so while there's no question that those teachers had all this information, what they, this was more of a black and white situation, they were totally out of touch with the lives and the value of their students. Can I just cut to that as a summation? All right. Matthew: Right. Yeah, yeah. Stanley Brownstein: So you think about what's happening the way. You're like, I remember... things that I had to deal with with you guys in school. And it was not stuff that I had to deal with as a child. So you have these people in ivory towers or people responding to problems in the community and they create... or political issues, issues that become political and they define how people should respond and feel to situations. And they're just Matthew: Yeah. Stanley Brownstein: not real. They're just not appropriate. Matthew: Do you think that happens more? Stanley Brownstein: Some people may say, and if they come from a really sincere place, they may say, I see you're upset, what's going on? But if they're not coming from a real place and they're just saying it because they're told they're supposed to say that, like, forget about it, like, you know? And that's kind of what happens a lot. You know, people are playing at being sincere. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: And I think someone who's in touch with themselves and with their neighbor and then with their gender, they're going to express it in a way that connects. Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: Like if I said like, what's going on, man? That's the same thing as saying, you know, what's going on? Matthew: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: Does that, does that? Matthew: Yeah, I mean there's Stanley Brownstein: It's kind of, and sometimes you can't even do it, but that's also a problem too. mean, some people escalate things because they're real, you know, cause they're responding because they're totally uncomfortable with the situation and they want to shut it down, which is probably what a lot of people in authority do when they just mess it up. Matthew: Yeah, I mean I I think something that I'm connecting to what you're saying is just the importance of grace. I think you stopped, so Hey, you know, one one's coming up for me is just the importance of grace. to extend grace to someone when they, you know, don't say the perfect thing, the perfect textbook thing. Another thing that comes up is that, you know, the emotion the the underlying emotion and the degree of self-awareness that's reflected in what you say. think maybe as a society we we've like undervalued that and it's more like the performance and less like the intent behind the performance as being what's important. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah, I mean that's so so I think that's so true. And I think they're trying to address real problems, but they're just trying to they do it in a way to check off the box. You know, just to change the voc change the vocabulary about something and and then just stop there. Matthew: Yeah, I and I think that some people do that, and maybe too many people do that. And you can argue that so many people do that, maybe that it makes it worse off that we that these this checkbox has been created. and I think it's also like some of those things I see in my own life. if I've like actually spent the time to take responsibility and connect with some of it. Where I'm like, yeah, this actually is helpful. Like there's a huge difference between going up to someone and being like, yo, like Why? why were you trying to disrespect me? Or what what would be a better one? know, why why are you trying to make me look like that? You know, like basically coming to someone and drawing a conclusion about what they're trying to do. And clearly there's some sometimes that could work and like the person immediately will it'll register with them. but this, you know, one of the things, the techniques that like I've learned and and I've even encouraged other people to reflect and to try is is actually the value of sharing and noticing and then a question. Hey, back over there before, you said blank. Like what was up with that? And and the and the and the difference between that versus drawing a conclusion and then asking them is because a lot of times, unless you have a really good relationship with them, unless the other person knows and is like ready to defer to you, if you draw a conclusion about what someone else was trying to do, that other person is just gonna get defensive. And maybe it's okay to c have like a as part one of a conversation to have to go back and forth for a while, being defensive until people are able to finally open up and be vulnerable and be honest. but in my experiences the conversation is so much different and like gets to where it needs to be quicker and more and almost like in some ways, like maybe more deeply, if it starts with a noticing that it's like uncontroversial. It's something you see, it's something you hear, and then you move. And I and I went in depth into this only to say that like, you know, there's a way to do that awkwardly. There's a way to be like, I heard you say this. It made me wonder. You know, like like like as if you're reading from a textbook. But but there's a way to do it authentically too. So I do think that like I I say all this to say that I think there is I think there's value in some of these things in the check boxes. Not all of them, but some of them. I do think there's more it it does more harm than good if you're going through the motions and not being honest with yourself about it. because it not only screws up that technique for yourself, but it almost, you know, butchers the technique in the eyes of someone else. And it means that no one is gonna give this technique a try, which I think is problematic. Stanley Brownstein: Well that and I I agree with you a hundred percent. I think that that's my issue with the check boxes is not so much that what they're advising is necessarily wrong, but Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: that they feel that that I feel that it just seems like in so many instances that's it's a ch I the reason why I called it checking off a box is because Matthew: No. They're going through the buff. Stanley Brownstein: They they don't they don't recognize that that's the beginning of the journey. Matthew: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: You know, the you know, there's a phrase, you know, act as if. You know, it's like we all know people who seem to smile when you know they're pissed as hell. But you know what? Smiling when you're pissed as hell, I think is a good technique. But you gotta recognize, you gotta move, you gotta really start feeling happy for that. person. Not you know what I mean? Not be p you know, understand how you shouldn't be pissed at that person. Does that echo what you're saying? Okay. Matthew: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I mean it it it actually there was a one of the things we did during professional learning today was asked we're we're spending some time talking about teacher language and the emotional tenor behind some of the things you're saying. And one of the questions that someone asked at the end or writ wrote a reflection at the end was, you know, what do you do if you're feeling emotional? And like I think that's just such a like I think there's a lot of And this I think connects to maleness and femeness. I think it connects to like what's expected of teachers. There's there's some misconceptions about parents for parents too, where it's like you always have to be calm and you always have to be gentle. And like the reality is, while you always have to be I think you always have to be safe, sometimes it's important for kids to know you're frustrated. Not without control, but but 'cause y 'cause fear fear is not something I think is a it's not something you should ever intentionally create for somebody, personally. I don't think that's a that's a that's an emotion that's an important one for people to have. But like to create fear for someone else, I think that's not a skillful move. But but anyways, like there are emotional tools that as a as a parent or as a teacher that we have that I think sometimes we close off to because we're fearful of I don't know, looking like an asshole or, you know, this idea that, you know, parents always have to be a certain type of way or, you know, anything else going on. Stanley Brownstein: Absolutely. And and when you we were talking when you originally posted you know this subject, it was embracing our gender, but in a way that is with equanimity. What Matthew: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: whatever our expression of our gender is, it should be with equanimity. And and I think However we express our, I mean however whatever our gender is, you know, our inclination is as a gender, if we express it with equanimity, I think it would be, it'll be received well. It's only when it's it's put on or, you know, it it's become a political issue and you know and pushed and Matthew: Yeah, like you use the word compensate, you know, I guess that Stanley Brownstein: You know. Yeah, overcompensated, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and that's kind of what everything is nowadays, unfortunately. Matthew: Yeah, I think and I think Stanley Brownstein: And I think, you know, like men who are, you know, not making money, living with their parents and feeling emasculated, they shouldn't feel emasculated. They should that shouldn't be the consideration. The consideration is like, what can they do? What makes them happy? What you know, why are they depressed? It has nothing to do with their maleness. It's like, so if if they're told it has Matthew: Right. Right. Stanley Brownstein: to do with their maleness, then they'll get into this toxin masculinity stuff and start overloading on protein and Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: working out and thinking, now I'm I'm really together. I mean, it's like they're looking for love in Matthew: Right. Stanley Brownstein: all the wrong places. Matthew: Support. Stanley Brownstein: All right. Matthew: Cool. Thanks, Dad. Stanley Brownstein: So we'll have to get back to This th yeah, that was more general, I understand. Matthew: No, well, but I I do think there is, you know, a another thread that we've pulled, I think, throughout our conversation is just like how important intention is, how important how important self awareness is. So I'm not sure if the if if you know, one of the you know, my my relationship with the topical issue today was this idea of like the importance of of parents walking the walk. You know, we ask and we we there are lessons that we want our kids to to to take on and like to what extent are we honestly engaging in those lessons ourselves? so that's something that's coming up for me. I don't know if it's worth another whole conversation next time. it could be what Stanley Brownstein: Well, I think it's important that I think it's a v really important contact because I think you know, any of our any of our goals are gonna be really lifelong because because they're that you know, because they're that grand, which means that we're always failing and how we acknowledge and accept and That failing and how we love ourselves for that failing connects with how we allow our kids to fail and how we support them and how we understand what they're feeling. I'm sorry. It was kind of like Matthew: Mm-hmm. Stanley Brownstein: we talked about last time. It's you know, to the ability to allow yourself to fail and rise up again and stick with the program. And a lot of a lot of times. w we do that we can do that because we judge ourselves and a lot of times we don't judge we judge ourselves negatively is because how how our parents Matthew: Sure. Stanley Brownstein: judge us when we did that and and what the reason why they're judging themselves is because they failed all the time and they never accepted their failure. So I mean that's yeah. So Matthew: Right, right. And and they're scared and don't want yeah. Stanley Brownstein: I think that's a really important point. I mean we could talk about that, but we could talk about whatever you want to do next time. Matthew: So let's do that. Let's talk about success. Stanley Brownstein: Yeah. Matthew: Let's talk about failure, goal setting, and you know, how to be the val yeah, the the value of that make of that being part of family life and the family seeing it and noticing it and how to engage them with it. Stanley Brownstein: And and therefore being in a position to to be a good example, which is really I think probably the greatest tool that we can give our children. Matthew: Love it. All right. So that'll be next time. All right. Thanks. Stanley Brownstein: All right. Matthew: Love ya.