Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / Ep 14: Ginny Jordan - Therapist, Entrepreneur & Philanthropist

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Ep 14: Ginny Jordan - Therapist, Entrepreneur & Philanthropist · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

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  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who
• 0:04
  have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they
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  got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them.
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  How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success,
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  and most importantly, find joy.
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  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
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  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
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  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
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  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
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  Welcome back to live free ride free.
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  Today I've got Someone who if you open the dictionary and you look at self
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  actualized you're going to find a picture of ginny jordan she really ought to be
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  in the oxford dictionary Ginny Jordan is someone I've been privileged to know for
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  quite a few years, and those of you who know my work with Horseboy Movement Method
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  and those therapeutic approaches that we do, I can say that they wouldn't exist
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  without the influence of Ginny Jordan.
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  But I'm not the only one.
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  I would say that of the people I know who have had a positive effect
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  upon the planet and our species and other species associated with us.
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  I don't really know anyone who has done more than Jeannie Jordan.
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  She's many things.
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  She has been and still is a film producer, very cutting edge films that
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  you may know, which we'll talk about later, all of which have served a
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  social purpose, but have also been just jolly good films in their own right.
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  She has had it Founded and headed an amazing initiative
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  for first women in Africa.
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  And then I think it's gone beyond that with HIV to, to micro fund
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  to set up businesses, which I know has gone bananas in the world.
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  She is involved with regenerative farming.
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  She's involved with feminism.
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  She's involved with healing.
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  She is a healer.
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  And.
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  Maybe actually it's not so much self actualized.
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  I'm just looking at the dictionary now under the word awesome.
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  And look, there's another picture of Ginny Jordan.
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  So Ginny.
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  Ginny Jordan: Oh, well, in the moment I'm completely delighted,
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  amused and enjoying being here.
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  So thanks for having me.
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  Who I am, I, wow, I think you said a lot, I'm a multidimensional being
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  and, you know, if you tie me down in a room, I'm an unhappy, unhappy person.
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  I, I need to manifest, I need to express.
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  Since I was little there was a deep, just inherent call to give myself to
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  the world in any ways that I could find that felt true and honest and felt would
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  actually, you know, Actually serve.
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  So, who am I?
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  Someone that cares, cares deeply.
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  I
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  mean, almost to the point of tears.
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  Most of the time it's like my heart is just constantly full of depth of caring
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  for who we are as a species, where we're headed, where we're seen to be not headed.
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  But it's just an impossibility for me to turn away.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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  So you have manifested so much for so many.
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  We're going to go into that, all the extraordinary things that
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  you've done and are still doing.
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  I want to ask you to take us back to that moment when you were a little girl
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  and you said you felt that calling.
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  Do you remember that moment?
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  How, what, can you take us there?
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  Ginny Jordan: Well, I think there were kind of two distinct moments
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  that come up the first, which I haven't talked about in a long time.
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  I was probably 6 or 7 and I woke up in the middle of the night.
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  What apparently felt like a nightmare, but it was a shocking wasn't really
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  a nightmare content and dreams.
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  It was just I had a revelation at night and I woke up with this.
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  Deep, profound heavy feeling that there had to be more than life than
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  the scripts that we were given.
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  You're supposed to grow up.
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  You're supposed to get married.
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  You're supposed to kind of have children.
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  Then you're supposed to do this.
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  You're supposed to do that.
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  And then it's over, you know, well done.
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  Or you could.
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  Maybe, maybe there are three scripts, but I, I saw through sort
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  of the nature of existence, if you will, in a moment, in a flash.
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  And I knew there had to be more.
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  I knew there was some other mysterious thing going on that was much larger
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  than this linear content that seemed to be already laid out in front of me.
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  And I went into pretty deep depression.
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  I tried to talk to my mother about it, and she just thought I was dead.
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  That's thoroughly crazy.
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  What's a seven year old thinking about such big arcs of future, but I was, and
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  that was a real awakening moment and it kind of an insistence and a contract
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  that I signed that there has to be something more to this existence than
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  just certainly going through the motions.
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  But I didn't know what it was, but I signed a contract to find out.
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  Rupert Isaacson: You said there were two moments, right?
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  So that was one.
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  Ginny Jordan: The second one was I.
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  I would get on the school bus and I would pretended that I had a wand.
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  This is sort of embarrassing, but I had a wand.
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  And anytime I saw what looked like a, a suffering or suddenly I would see a, a tow
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  truck carrying a car and, oh my goodness, that probably involved an accident, you
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  know, and I'm like secretly blessing.
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  As though I have that power as a little one that I could bless, you know,
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  those who might be injured or hurt or that I could see out the window.
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  And I often would kind of put the, the wand under imagined one.
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  I didn't have a real wand under my pillow at night, you know, and feel felt
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  prepared in the morning to, to bless and I have no idea where that came from.
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  It's not like, not like I had a parent modeling that, but there
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  was a deep, you know, that's when I began ever so slowly to wake up
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  to the, just the fact that I cared.
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  And not that everybody should have that particular destiny, but it was very clear.
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  It's like, wow, I really cared about that person who was on the sidewalk limping.
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  I really cared about what something that might have looked
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  marginalized or different.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Where were you on a school bus?
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  What part of America?
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  Ginny Jordan: I grew up in Ohio in a very small town outside of Toledo,
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  Ohio, fairly rural existence on a river.
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  My parents were at this point quite involved in
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  environmental conservation work.
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  So they modeled love of land and care for the earth for me.
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  I got to sort of live and breathe that without really knowing what was happening.
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  Why did they do that?
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  I think it was rooted, my mother was involved in the Nature Conservancy
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  from almost its inception.
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  And for many years was on the national board, like 30 years of her life.
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  And I think it came from, you know, their love of the solitude that they found
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  when they were in the natural world.
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  They were also hunters, fisher, fishermen, women and love land.
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  And I, I'm not sure where I could tell you where that
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  actually, when I look to the next
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  Rupert Isaacson: generation in the family that they were, they fished, they hunted,
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  they did duck shooting and wanted to conserve the marshes, that sort of thing.
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  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, the very beginning of Nature Conservancy was
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  about that just kind of course it evolved, you know, and needed to,
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  Rupert Isaacson: what were they doing?
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  What was their, what was their profession?
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  Ginny Jordan: My father was a real entrepreneur.
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  He bought sort of a bankrupt business and got a loan from his father and,
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  you know, built it into a very, very successful manufacturing company.
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  He manufactured doors, front entry doors, and he was very intuitive.
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  And he anticipated sort of the energy crisis in the 60s and he'd already
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  designed a, a wood door that looked, a fiberglass door that looked like
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  wood, that was highly energy efficient.
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  So he had a kind of remarkable talent of sort of forecasting.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So you're, so he was a manifester.
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  Ginny Jordan: Definitely.
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  Rupert Isaacson: And your mother was some, a carer of the land, also your father.
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  Ginny Jordan: And also a big manifester and a leader and a leader in that.
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  Rupert Isaacson: And yet, when you came to your mum as a six, seven year old with
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  this revelation, instead of going, well, you're clearly, you know, following in
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  the footsteps of all the wise women, you know, well done, well done for showing up.
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  And now we begin your priestess training.
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  She rolled her eyes, given that she was a manifester and a caravan.
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  Why do you think she had that reaction?
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  Ginny Jordan: I think it, you know, just, you know, imagine that
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  generation's, you know, sort of fixation on pretty limited scripts.
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  What
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  Rupert Isaacson: year would you say?
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  Ginny Jordan: Well, I was born in 53, so this was probably, and I was
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  maybe 7, 8, something like that.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So about 1958, 9, 60, somewhere in there.
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  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
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  I think, you know, it was a radical idea.
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  That maybe, maybe these scripts are fundamentally limited and you
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  know, who said that we should sort of fulfill it as it's laid out
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  sort of traditionally, culturally.
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  And I think that was just a little over their heads.
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  I also, I also think that I was speaking to some mystery of life that was much
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  larger and I don't think it certainly was not a religious orientation
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  because they didn't have that.
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  But.
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  I think I, I had a sort of a deep spiritual kind of knowing that
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  they didn't understand at all.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Did, did, when she had that reaction to
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  you, what was your reaction?
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  Ginny Jordan: Oh, I shut down.
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  Rupert Isaacson: But you didn't, it didn't shut you down from using
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  your magic wand on the school bus?
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  Ginny Jordan: No, didn't.
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  But you know, that's kind of like a secret activity.
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  Right.
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  No one really knows I have a magic wand.
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  Rupert Isaacson: I know you have a magic wand and I've been watching you
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  Ginny Jordan: for
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  Rupert Isaacson: 25 years.
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  We're going to go into that.
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  And it's really interesting to me.
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  I've often wondered where your shamanic ability to manifest extraordinary things
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  on an extraordinary scale came from.
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  And you telling me that story in all the years I've known
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  you, I haven't known that.
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  I think it should be on the school curriculum.
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  I think that as soon as you get on the school bus, they should
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  give you your What Magic Wand.
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  Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Here is how you use it and here is how you do not use it.
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  Can you imagine?
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  Ginny Jordan: It'd be amazing.
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  Rupert Isaacson: How different the world would
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  Ginny Jordan: look.
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  Yeah.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Every kid riding the school bus.
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  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
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  And I certainly felt, you know, sort of secretly powerful.
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  Not not as, you know, dominant, of course, you know, I'm young
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  but more than I, wow, I could have an influence of my little wand.
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  I could help heal someone.
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  I couldn't help them feel better.
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  I could, I could make sense out of some things that didn't make
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  sense, you know, bring order.
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  Rupert Isaacson: There's no question.
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  You've been doing that ever since.
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  Yeah, I'm going to talk to you later about this.
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  I think it should be a whole curriculum.
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  I think this is something I'd really like to pursue in the
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  work we do in schools and stuff.
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  This is genius.
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  So perhaps we could have that conversation, I think.
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  We need to give all these kids magic ones.
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  So now you, you blow my mind with your magic wand.
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  Okay.
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  So now, but I have to retrieve my mind.
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  Otherwise there will be no podcast.
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  Take us to the next thing.
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  Okay.
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  You, now you go from little girl.
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  Beginning to do her first imagining harnessing her imagination into
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  manifestation in a way that is through caring really compassion at what point
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  do you begin to put that into action?
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  Tell us about your college years Where did you go to college?
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  How was that?
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  What year what years were those?
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  Ginny Jordan: Oh, I'm terrible.
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  Just don't even go there It's like I don't I can't let my
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  Rupert Isaacson: degree so
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  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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  Well, I, I went to boarding school, which was utterly a disaster.
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  It was like putting the wrong being in the wrong context with all girls.
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  I grew up with 4 brothers and that was.
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  It's strange and heartbreaking and I knew back to this original story.
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  I just told you that somehow that cultural layout, which I was
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  supposed to go to boarding school.
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  Then I went supposed to go to Vassar where my mom went.
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  My brother's supposed to go to Yale where he went and then I'm going to marry.
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  You know, some amazing, you know, businessmen, and I'm going to be
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  president of the junior league someday.
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  And it was all sort of scripted.
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  And so I ended up after boarding school, I went to a very, very radical, extreme
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  experimental college in California,
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  Rupert Isaacson: presumably by your own design, not by your mother's design.
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  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
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  And, and a bit of a synchronistic happening on the shores of Crete in
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  Greece when When I, I was 19, I kind of did the big walk about the big
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  adventure and I sat on the beach and a little tiny part of the island that you
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  could only get in by donkey called Vi.
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  And I lived on the beach, kind of did the sort of hippie thing and a man
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  came up to me and said, did you hear about this amazing experimental school?
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  That's starting some professors from Harvard or whatever,
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  you know, sort of big.
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  Mucky Mucky's coasts have had it and they want to start this experiment
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  in Southern California using the facilities, the University of Redlands,
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  it was called Johnston College.
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  And, you know, it was one of those moments that we have in a life
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  where there was just a recognition.
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  I went, Oh, that's for me.
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  And I checked it out and, and I went, and that was seminal in my, in my biography.
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  I experimented with so many things and as we did as a group, we literally
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  were 200 students that, like, made up.
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  We were collective creators of this, of this experiment.
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  And I, I studied extraordinary things with extraordinary faculty
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  and made up my own degree and I was.
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  A pivot a pivot moment.
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  What did you
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  Rupert Isaacson: what did you study?
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  Ginny Jordan: Mostly well, many things, but I, my degree was in psychology.
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  I can't even remember the title that I, but it had to
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  do with the integrated child.
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  I did a lot of work with children at the time.
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  And, I can't remember the title of it, but it was psychology.
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  Rupert Isaacson: I love the fact that you can't remember the title of your degree.
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  That's perfect.
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  But what would you say when you said we experimented,
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  what did you experiment with?
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  Ginny Jordan: Everything, you know, this was in the early days,
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  the human potential movement.
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  So, you know, we were pounding pillows and saying, fuck you out
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  the windows to our moms and dads.
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  And, you know, it's like heavy duty therapy, but it was all
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  about sort of self discovery.
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  I studied the Stolt Therapy Institute in Los Angeles with the greats of the
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  greats, Fritz Perls, all his proteges.
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  You know, get, I got rolfed at 19 years old and you get credit for that.
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  You know, it was like a lot of it was just experimenting.
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  We worked with Jean Houston, studied myth extensively and actually
• 16:04
  went through a course with her.
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  And.
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  Ramdass and Castaneda of all people.
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  So some of the, some of the greats in those days were very interested.
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  We were, there were 12 of us that were graduating in the person in the
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  transpersonal psych part of the, of the, of the college, and they were our faculty.
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  Rupert Isaacson: So I need to just, just, just take a pause
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  because a lot of our listeners.
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  Don't know who these people were and what some of these things are.
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  And I think we need to talk about this because listeners, those of you who
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  came through the counterculture I take off my hat because those of us like
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  me, who as dinosaur ancient, as I am now, I am still a generation that came.
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  from the loins of the people of the counterculture and I have
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  benefited massively from it.
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  Basically the hippies paved the way because they knew that there was a better
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  quality of life than a militaristic, um, military industrial complex.
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  And they, we, we take for granted.
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  the freedoms that we have socially now, but they were not always there.
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  And the people that forged that were the counterculture
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  people of the 60s and early 70s.
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  And obviously, Ginny, you were very much part of this.
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  And so were these people you're talking about.
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  So we owe a debt of gratitude for our the freedoms.
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  Not just that the the political freedoms, but the the social and and
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  thought freedoms that we have these days which we take for granted Stuff
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  that you could see on media today.
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  It was not there before Okay, so Gestalt therapy people will not
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  know necessarily what that is.
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  Even though it's a legendary thing.
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  Please tell us What is Gestalt therapy?
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  Ginny Jordan: Well, Fritz Perls was the founder of very well known
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  psychologist who really explored sort of the human psyche in terms of parts.
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  So, you know, we have a tyrant in us, we have a you know, a rescuer in us,
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  we have a victim, we have a, and in his passion was getting into a room and just
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  laying out all the parts and having them all dialogue and act out and it's very,
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  Very sort of active dynamic, almost on the edge of theatrical expression.
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  So it was a lot of, a lot about kind of moving places of tension
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  and certainly not being afraid of those places, inviting them.
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  So that was very much what Gestalt is about is liberating
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  yourself from different parts that don't know the other parts.
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  It's like where we're unconscious and kind of raising to the surface.
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  Rupert Isaacson: Gestalt is, I live in Germany, Gestalt is a German word,
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  it means patent or complete, right?
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  So, greater than the sum of its parts, I guess.
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  So, are you saying it's an integration of all of those?
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  Right.
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  Size of oneself and sort of recognition of all of those sides of oneself
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  to kind of get self knowledge.
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  Ginny Jordan: Yep.
• 19:09
  Exactly.
• 19:09
  Well said.
• 19:10
  Yep.
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  And not done through kind of just talk therapy sitting, you know, one on
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  one often it was done in group work.
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  And so that when you witnessed somebody else's, you know, extremely violent father
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  and the suffering that, that, that person.
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  Went through, you know, the idea is also that it, it mirrored something for you.
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  It's like the work was for everybody was just sitting in a little cubicle and that,
• 19:39
  that was part of its power at the time.
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  And it's still, it's still alive and live and well, it's nothing like it
• 19:45
  was in our day to your point, right?
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  It was the human potential movement was just, just on fire.
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  And we were passionate about discovering who we really were.
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  And determined to remove any blocks that particularly that were scripted
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  things that, you know, back to this feeling that we were pushing off a
• 20:04
  generation of a lot of authority.
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  Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned someone called Jean Houston.
• 20:10
  Who is she?
• 20:12
  Ginny Jordan: She's sort of queen of, you know, Mythic reality and explored
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  it in in, in so many dimensions she's a storyteller kind of a mythic wonder
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  could, could really look at what we, what we would call an archetype.
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  And unpack it in the most creative and deliberate way.
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  She, we went through a year long course with her.
• 20:35
  That was called mind games where she was really fascinated in exploring what can
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  happen in a group process again, kind of a group focus and a lot of it had
• 20:46
  to do with developing certain kinds of.
• 20:49
  Psychic capacity, certain capacities for attunement for group mind literally some
• 20:55
  people would be in the middle middle of the room and they would facilitate
• 20:59
  a process where they go into a trance.
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  And I mean, it was pretty wild stuff we were playing with, but she's really
• 21:06
  an extraordinary mythic scholar and anybody who hasn't heard of her should
• 21:12
  definitely look into she's written many, many, many books and is quite a force.
• 21:19
  Rupert Isaacson: You mentioned Ram Dass, who's Ram Dass?
• 21:23
  Ginny Jordan: Very well known spiritual teacher of the time.
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  I have think he passed about, I don't know, 5, 5 or so years ago.
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  A Harvard dropout psychedelic guy.
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  That was absolutely.
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  I mean, he has real awakening happening in India.
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  And with it, with his, with a guru, very, very funny, very inspiring
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  wickedly bright and had a wonderful way of charismatic leader, a wonderful
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  way of sort of people helping people re remember who they really kind of
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  are, which essentially beans of beans of light is how he would talk about it.
• 22:02
  And so it was a very devotional path with him.
• 22:06
  Rupert Isaacson: What was he teaching you guys?
• 22:07
  Yeah, specifically.
• 22:09
  Ginny Jordan: I think he was teaching us really about you know, again, through
• 22:13
  a lot of his works, he, I mean, he was most known for a book called be here now.
• 22:17
  You know, at the time that was kind of a revelatory concept.
• 22:20
  It's like, it's called being present, you know, now it's sort of old hat.
• 22:24
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, this present moment mindfulness
• 22:26
  shit that we hear all the time.
• 22:27
  It actually did begin somewhere.
• 22:28
  Yes.
• 22:29
  Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.
• 22:30
  Absolutely.
• 22:31
  It was radical
• 22:31
  Rupert Isaacson: at the time.
• 22:32
  Yeah.
• 22:33
  Ginny Jordan: Be here now.
• 22:33
  And that was what he's kind of most known for.
• 22:37
  And But I think he added the heart piece, you know, so, you know, we were
• 22:43
  pushing off a lot of that generation.
• 22:45
  We're certainly pushing off the Vietnam war, you know, there's a
• 22:47
  lot of pushing and kind of fire and insistence on expressing ourselves and
• 22:54
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
• 22:54
  Ginny Jordan: you can get all those images of, you know, sort of
• 22:57
  anti war protests and blah, blah.
• 22:59
  But he added the heart and, you know, he was,
• 23:04
  Rupert Isaacson: he's saying, you've got to be compassionate towards those who
• 23:06
  you are causing the suffering that is.
• 23:10
  Ginny Jordan: I think he definitely, but, you know, he was a, he was a
• 23:14
  devotional devotee to his, his version of, of, of God, so to speak, which
• 23:20
  was a deep spiritual calling for him that, you know, mother India is most
• 23:24
  known for, and that's where he had his 1st awakening and then determination
• 23:29
  to translate that into Western terms.
• 23:32
  And as I said, humor, humor was 1 of his best.
• 23:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Speaking of humour, can I tell you my, my Ram Dass story?
• 23:37
  Ginny Jordan: Yes, please do.
• 23:38
  I have a Ram Dass
• 23:39
  Rupert Isaacson: story.
• 23:39
  I never met Ram Dass, but I did go once to a reading of things by Ram
• 23:44
  Dass between from Be Here Now, and I went to the toilet and someone had
• 23:49
  taped on the urinal, pee here now.
• 23:54
  Ginny Jordan: Perfect.
• 23:55
  Be present when you're peeing.
• 23:56
  Make sure you get it in the toilet.
• 23:59
  That's perfect.
• 24:01
  Rupert Isaacson: No doubt men need a reminding of that.
• 24:03
  Ginny Jordan: Always.
• 24:05
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 24:05
  You mentioned another name.
• 24:08
  And by the way, listeners, it's important that you know this because
• 24:11
  these people are all legends.
• 24:13
  Yeah.
• 24:14
  We're talking about mentorship here.
• 24:16
  To be mentored by some of these people, Somewhat extraordinary.
• 24:19
  I didn't know you were mentored by these people.
• 24:21
  You mentioned Castaneda, Carlos Castaneda.
• 24:25
  For those of you who do not know who Carlos Castaneda
• 24:28
  was, Ginny, please tell us.
• 24:31
  Ginny Jordan: Well, I, you know who he is.
• 24:33
  Rupert Isaacson: Certainly, but not every listener will.
• 24:35
  Ginny Jordan: No, but I'd love to hear how you would frame him.
• 24:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, well, that's a bit unfair.
• 24:42
  I'm the one, I ask the questions here.
• 24:45
  Ginny Jordan: But I'm interested in how your generation would, that I met.
• 24:49
  When I was,
• 24:49
  Rupert Isaacson: when I was a school boy Carlos Castaneda and
• 24:53
  my school boy, I'm in London.
• 24:55
  I'm a a very traditional conservative boys.
• 24:59
  school, which is also part of the military, blah, blah, blah.
• 25:01
  And I was the last generation of boys to be regularly beaten
• 25:04
  at school, that sort of thing.
• 25:05
  You know, it was, it was the old Victorian model.
• 25:08
  And so Carlos Castaneda was one of the influencers that came in for rebellion.
• 25:12
  And Carlos Castaneda was a an American who went down to Mexico and wrote a
• 25:19
  series of books about interactions with a Huishol Indian shaman.
• 25:23
  Or was he?
• 25:23
  No, he wasn't Huishol.
• 25:24
  He was, um, what's the tribe next to them?
• 25:27
  Or was he Huishol?
• 25:29
  Anyway, from, from that.
• 25:30
  Ginny Jordan: He went Don Juan.
• 25:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, Don Juan.
• 25:33
  And for those of you, the Huishols are the ones who do these amazing color patterns.
• 25:36
  And they're known for their relationship with the Huishol.
• 25:39
  Peyote, which is a hallucinogenic substance and peeling medicine in
• 25:43
  use for thousands of years and still in use in Native America today.
• 25:48
  But it grows in their area and it grows in a very small area on the Mexican
• 25:52
  Texas border and Arizona, Texas border.
• 25:55
  And so he wrote a series of books about being in apprenticeship to this
• 26:00
  one and being taken on an ever more.
• 26:04
  sort of ego destroying series of terrifying hallucinogenic journeys.
• 26:10
  that were extremely influential both as anthropology and as just
• 26:15
  flat out entertaining writing and the spiritual writing.
• 26:18
  However, there is of course a controversy around him.
• 26:22
  Many people say he didn't actually, he made it all up and then he ended
• 26:25
  up with a bit of a a sort of sex cult around him or something like that.
• 26:29
  And then some of those people, and then he, after he died, some of those
• 26:32
  people disappeared and perhaps potential foul play and blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 26:37
  So he's one of these sort of legendary characters who, you know,
• 26:40
  I look at it from my generation and say, well, I don't know.
• 26:43
  I don't know whether he made it up.
• 26:44
  I don't know whether he went, I don't know this, I don't know that.
• 26:46
  But what I do know is that the books were extremely influential.
• 26:51
  And for those of us who were sort of suffering in that Victorian model,
• 26:56
  they served as a window on the potential of what life could look like.
• 27:02
  And the potential of human consciousness.
• 27:04
  That's about all I have to say on Carlos Castaneda, but you know,
• 27:07
  knew the man, you met the man.
• 27:08
  What, what do you have to say about that?
• 27:11
  Ginny Jordan: Well, yeah, I understand the controversy.
• 27:14
  Ultimately, it doesn't matter because if this was an invention and just
• 27:19
  imagination is pretty brilliant.
• 27:21
  Imagination because the, what it set up to your point is this power, the
• 27:27
  power of mentorship, of letting, you know, he, he had to go through all
• 27:31
  of his Western white control, right.
• 27:35
  To, to let go and to be led by this man, not only just through,
• 27:39
  you know, taking plant medicine, but you know, crazy trials.
• 27:44
  He put him through, it's like 40 days in the desert kind of trials coyote kind of.
• 27:50
  Operations right where suddenly he's, you know, and he was pushed.
• 27:54
  It's like a version of an outward bound course.
• 27:57
  And every time he went to see him and so much of the books and the inspiration are,
• 28:05
  you know, what it is to let go like that.
• 28:08
  To someone that again, true or false made up or not irrelevant, it's an amazing
• 28:13
  archetype of what it is to actually break through our kind of cultural addictions.
• 28:21
  Two.
• 28:22
  To be able to sense life, to open our senses to other realities that, you
• 28:28
  know, for many indigenous peoples in the world are, are, are preexisting.
• 28:34
  There's no need to convince they're operating in an entirely
• 28:37
  different kind of room in the house, so to speak, than we are.
• 28:41
  And that that's, was the revelation of the books.
• 28:44
  And he was kind of a mixed character.
• 28:47
  He was actually quite shy.
• 28:50
  And when he would come to teach, you know, we would all just be, you know,
• 28:53
  be kind of like rabidly trying to pull stuff out of him, you know, it's all
• 28:57
  such an intriguing story and he, you know, would offer things, but he was
• 29:01
  very within himself, quite shy actually.
• 29:05
  And didn't have a big need, you know, he was almost self effacing, almost
• 29:10
  to the point of being self effacing.
• 29:12
  He didn't have a big need to like, Blow his horn and say, Oh, my God, I'm amazing.
• 29:17
  It was like, I felt a natural humility in him.
• 29:21
  So, for whatever that's worth, as I said, you know, I was young and maybe not the
• 29:25
  full capacity to read character, but a key figure for a young woman, for sure.
• 29:32
  Rupert Isaacson: I think, yeah, what the point is that he, he was also a
• 29:35
  key figure in the counter, counter culture of opening people's minds to
• 29:39
  the power of indigenous myth as well.
• 29:43
  What you just described to me from, you know, that waking up to the school bus.
• 29:49
  With the magic wand to, I love that you put the wand under your pillow at night.
• 29:54
  I love that.
• 29:55
  To then this new radical counterculture college is it's
• 30:01
  basically sounds like Hermione Granger from the Harry Potter series.
• 30:05
  Realizing her magical potential, even though she's, you know, I can't remember
• 30:08
  she's a muggle half muggle as well.
• 30:10
  And and then being sent off to Hogwarts to learn the workings of magic.
• 30:14
  And I think what, what you've talked about, we're going to go on to the
• 30:17
  actual things you've done in your life, which are mind blowing in a moment.
• 30:21
  But It seems that you
• 30:26
  awoke to intrinsically, but then were also, had it nurtured and mentored.
• 30:35
  If nothing else, the power of the human imagination.
• 30:39
  And the more, the older I get, the more convinced I am that this is
• 30:44
  the most powerful tool we have.
• 30:45
  And this is the thing that really renders us who we are in terms of
• 30:51
  this ridiculous power that we wield as a species, for good or ill.
• 30:56
  Luckily, mostly I think for good.
• 30:57
  I think the story you've just sort of told of the crucible in which that
• 31:03
  imagination can be, can awake, and then I think, I think it does actually
• 31:09
  awaken most children spontaneously, you know, my, my, because that's who we are.
• 31:14
  My earliest memories of walking in my parents garden in London with
• 31:17
  the sun shining on a brick wall.
• 31:18
  It's very early in the morning, because, and it's warm, it's a summer morning.
• 31:22
  And i'm up early than earlier than all the adults and the adults don't want
• 31:25
  to be woken up So i'm in the garden and there's bees buzzing on the little
• 31:29
  flowers that are growing out of the wall And in the in those bees and in those
• 31:34
  flowers I hear that I hear god and god talks to me and god doesn't give me
• 31:38
  any revelations god's just like this Nurturing figure almost I can almost feel
• 31:44
  the hand on my shoulder as i'm walking and just reassuring And I think that
• 31:49
  almost every child on the planet You Has this as their birthright, and then
• 31:55
  many, many, many children go through something like that imaginary wand thing.
• 32:03
  And then it's sort of slapped out of them or, or, or even
• 32:08
  just conditioned out of them.
• 32:10
  And now more than ever through, you know, social media and things like that,
• 32:15
  the non interaction with the physical world, the animal world, the human world.
• 32:20
  And now with screens, which of course themselves are a product
• 32:22
  of the human imagination and themselves can be wonderful things.
• 32:27
  But obviously can also be limiting things.
• 32:29
  So it is easy.
• 32:31
  We can see that that power has unleashed itself in an unlimited
• 32:35
  way and then comes with its own limitations and each generation has
• 32:39
  to come to their own terms with this.
• 32:40
  But I love that you had that and remember that so clearly.
• 32:47
  Alright, so now you've been mentored by these legends.
• 32:49
  These guys are all legends.
• 32:52
  And then you graduate, you go out into the world.
• 32:54
  What do you do?
• 32:54
  What's the first thing you do when you get out of college?
• 32:58
  Ginny Jordan: Well, I really thought I knew something.
• 33:00
  So it was kind of total act of arrogance that I went up to
• 33:03
  Northern California and started.
• 33:06
  Training psychiatrists and psychologists and they, to you,
• 33:10
  Rupert Isaacson: I really thought at 12 or whatever you were that was,
• 33:13
  Ginny Jordan: yeah, I really thought I knew something and and that, you know,
• 33:17
  thank goodness, you know, my version of, you know, God speaking to me said,
• 33:20
  you know, after a few years of this, you know, I could really feel where it was.
• 33:24
  I was kind of winging it from the inside.
• 33:27
  And yes, I was bright.
• 33:29
  I had things to offer, but it really was not in the depth of my experience.
• 33:34
  And I just, at some point I knew that and that came to an end.
• 33:39
  And I, and I knew I always wanted to work with people that was kind of a given.
• 33:43
  But the form of kind of coming, emerging as this sort of.
• 33:46
  Glorious teacher who knew a bunch of things that that needed to sort of kind
• 33:51
  of have its moment in Moment in time and then it dissolved into something much more
• 33:57
  authentic and real which was just part of my ongoing quest anyways, and I Then well
• 34:05
  pretty shortly after that period of time.
• 34:07
  I got married And the whole, I have had three children and that whole journey
• 34:12
  at the same time, I continue to work with people, but in a much more sort of.
• 34:17
  Modest way very fascinated with dream language.
• 34:20
  That was always a big part of my interior life.
• 34:25
  I was an active dreamer since I was very young, a prophetic dreamer.
• 34:30
  I often dreamt things beforehand, which was quite confusing as a little one.
• 34:34
  But I was fascinated by the language itself of, of dreams and,
• 34:39
  you know, how it is that we're speaking to ourselves every night.
• 34:43
  Rupert Isaacson: You know, you're working with people, by the way,
• 34:45
  as a therapist, how are you working
• 34:47
  Ginny Jordan: as a therapist?
• 34:48
  Yeah, that's what I got my debris in and then extra extra trainings, et cetera.
• 34:55
  And then I really got involved in dream work specifically.
• 34:58
  and studied with some wonderful Jungians.
• 35:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, that was the question, the natural question to ask
• 35:05
  was, so Carl Jung, obviously the most prolific writer, or at least the household
• 35:09
  name at any rate, in terms of dream work and the interpretation of dreams.
• 35:14
  Those of you who don't know who Jung is, Jung was Swiss Swiss German early
• 35:19
  psychologist, psychiatrist product, protege of Freud, and then went away
• 35:24
  from Freud and forged his own thing.
• 35:27
  And an awful lot of what we take for granted in terms of psychological
• 35:31
  stuff and that's taught in colleges today really comes down to Jung.
• 35:34
  Do you think that Jung, it's a chance for me to ask you, do you think that
• 35:37
  Jung's interpretations of dreams are pretty sound, or do you think they're
• 35:42
  just Subjective and, but just sort of a useful way into what, what do you think?
• 35:48
  Ginny Jordan: Well, I think, I think we've come a long way.
• 35:50
  I think he, he, he really mapped the unconscious and in the most profound way
• 35:57
  that ever had been done prior to him.
• 36:00
  And that was that, that you Rupert could be over there in Germany right now.
• 36:04
  And tonight you could dream about, you know, a chalice.
• 36:08
  Rupert Isaacson: A
• 36:09
  Ginny Jordan: golden chalice, and tonight I can dream about a golden
• 36:13
  chalice and there's some kind of collective unconscious material that is
• 36:18
  ubiquitous throughout the whole world.
• 36:21
  And he really excavated that that dimension of the unconscious
• 36:25
  that we're sharing a collective unconscious as well as having our
• 36:29
  own personal unconscious material.
• 36:32
  And that was revelatory at the time.
• 36:35
  That somehow we're linked to these images and these symbols that have
• 36:40
  preexisting tremendous, tremendous meaning, meaning that are rooted
• 36:44
  beyond just myth and story.
• 36:47
  They live somewhere in the fertile soil of our beings, and it doesn't matter
• 36:51
  our upbringing culture, skin color.
• 36:55
  Gender and none of it, and that's really was his, his, his strongest contribution
• 37:02
  in terms of individually working.
• 37:04
  You know, he certainly set up templates, but people have
• 37:07
  gone much further than that.
• 37:09
  It's not like everybody who dreams about a snake.
• 37:10
  It means, oh, you're dealing with your sexuality or your it's the really deeper
• 37:15
  work is, you know, Rupert, who's who's that snake to you as you begin to have a
• 37:19
  dialogue and he was also most known for.
• 37:23
  What, what he called, you know, active imagination.
• 37:26
  So back to your, your thoughts on imagination.
• 37:30
  I do think it comes down to that.
• 37:32
  And so he really encouraged people to engage their dream
• 37:36
  life in a living, breathing way.
• 37:39
  It's not just something that happens at night.
• 37:41
  That's past tense.
• 37:42
  You know, been there, done that.
• 37:43
  Here's the next day.
• 37:45
  He was really interested in like your snake.
• 37:48
  And what does that snake want to say to you?
• 37:51
  You know, why ask him why he bit you?
• 37:54
  Don't just interpret that.
• 37:57
  Ask him.
• 37:59
  Rupert Isaacson: So when you were doing your dream work and you're working
• 38:03
  as a therapist with people, you come out of college and you're there in,
• 38:07
  it's the 1970s and you know, the world is opening up and the counterculture
• 38:11
  is now moving into the mainstream.
• 38:14
  What, what, what we, what were you saying to people when they were
• 38:19
  coming to you with their dreams?
• 38:20
  How, how were you, how were you approaching that?
• 38:24
  What?
• 38:26
  What was your mission with that?
• 38:31
  Ginny Jordan: My mission was ultimately, which I now know better now, because
• 38:35
  I still do some of that work.
• 38:36
  I have actually 2 groups that I work with today.
• 38:39
  It's gone through lots of cycles, but it's quite active again in my life.
• 38:45
  But ultimately, what I'm interested in, and the, the, the angle in which I
• 38:49
  work with is that somehow this notion that day and night are separate.
• 38:56
  Rupert Isaacson: And
• 38:56
  Ginny Jordan: that this idea which is not just an idea, it's my felt experience
• 39:00
  that you and I right now are in a dream.
• 39:04
  We're having a podcast dream and that if you experience night and
• 39:10
  day is kind of a seamless and many indigenous people knew this.
• 39:15
  Right that, that the things that happen in your outer waking life, so
• 39:18
  to speak are a little further away from the felt sense that arrives in
• 39:24
  and what looks irrational in a dream.
• 39:27
  It's all the same.
• 39:28
  It's just that at night we have a different opportunity.
• 39:32
  to generate and create and to be in a position to actually receive
• 39:37
  tremendous help instruction guidance.
• 39:40
  I mean, it's just powerful.
• 39:42
  I'm just continually blown away.
• 39:45
  I'm
• 39:46
  Rupert Isaacson: asking people questions that are aimed at helping them to perhaps
• 39:51
  gain insight into what those dreams are trying to tell them in terms of guidance.
• 39:55
  Is, is, is, is it primarily that, or is it helping to reassure them that if
• 40:01
  they're having negative dreams perhaps or nightmare dreams or despair dreams
• 40:08
  or something that that perhaps isn't, you know, necessarily their reality or
• 40:13
  when someone comes to you with a dream that they actually dreamt at night,
• 40:19
  why are they coming to you with that?
• 40:22
  And
• 40:25
  what's your,
• 40:29
  again, mission is, is, and I've asked the question before, so it's
• 40:32
  like I'm repeating myself, but I guess what I'm trying to grasp at
• 40:35
  is deep down, what are you mostly trying to help them with in this?
• 40:41
  Ginny Jordan: Trying to help them expand into being more who they really are.
• 40:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 40:46
  Do you feel that that's what dreams are doing that they're saying to us?
• 40:50
  Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.
• 40:52
  It doesn't matter whether it comes in the form of a nightmare or despair
• 40:56
  or a snippet, you know, I can't tell you how many people come to a dream
• 41:00
  because I just had a little snippet and then they start talking about
• 41:03
  it and a world opens up with it.
• 41:06
  Little one liner that they hear or something they see and I take
• 41:10
  the position that it's not like you over milk it for meaning.
• 41:14
  It's inherently meaningful.
• 41:16
  It's like young used to talk about is every night.
• 41:19
  Your soul's writing you a letter and our job.
• 41:23
  is to wake up and open the letter.
• 41:26
  Rupert Isaacson: Now, why do we want to open the letter?
• 41:29
  Ginny Jordan: Instead of throw it away?
• 41:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 41:31
  I mean, this might sound like a self evident question, but I think for
• 41:33
  a lot of people, it really isn't.
• 41:35
  For a lot of people, a dream is a dream.
• 41:36
  You dream it, it goes away.
• 41:38
  Why do we want to open that letter from our soul?
• 41:41
  Ginny Jordan: Because You have the most beautiful way of addressing
• 41:46
  your own being than anybody else.
• 41:49
  It's your material.
• 41:51
  It's not, I didn't drop those into your psyche.
• 41:54
  It's yours.
• 41:55
  You have the most beautiful way of speaking to yourself that the other,
• 42:00
  the other night, two nights ago, I dreamt that I went to a, some being
• 42:05
  said to me, a wonderful human, just, I felt like I really respected this
• 42:08
  person said to me, go into this room.
• 42:11
  You're finally ready.
• 42:12
  You know, and I go into this room and it's like filled floor to ceiling with pearls.
• 42:17
  I couldn't even barely get the door open and you know, okay, that's
• 42:22
  a letter like, what the heck?
• 42:24
  Right now, if I just throw that letter out, I will have missed something
• 42:28
  quite, quite beautiful for me.
• 42:31
  And my job as a human is to bow to that, like say, thank you.
• 42:37
  And then engage it.
• 42:40
  It's not just, not just random,
• 42:41
  Rupert Isaacson: how do you unpack that particular dream?
• 42:43
  You can talk me through the process.
• 42:45
  Ginny Jordan: Well, for myself, sometimes it's really helpful to have
• 42:48
  someone else ask you the questions, but I can ask them for myself.
• 42:51
  I've learned to that over the years for myself.
• 42:54
  I asked very obvious questions.
• 42:56
  Like, what did that feel like?
• 42:58
  Well, I was so, kind of intimidated.
• 43:01
  And excited at the same time, what intimidated you?
• 43:04
  Jenny?
• 43:05
  Why is that?
• 43:07
  You know, it's like I was in a room.
• 43:08
  My mind could say, Oh, my God, it's pearls of wisdom or it's
• 43:11
  treasures or that's all true.
• 43:13
  But I needed to have a direct relationship to feel it.
• 43:16
  And it was something about feeling the fullness floor to ceiling
• 43:22
  fullness of these pearlescent pearls.
• 43:26
  As as a felt experience of, and this person that told me to go in, there
• 43:32
  was basically saying, you're ready.
• 43:33
  Now you're ready.
• 43:35
  It's kind of arrival time.
• 43:37
  You're ready.
• 43:38
  And I'm like, both scared and I'm both like, excited.
• 43:43
  Rupert Isaacson: And what conclusion did you draw at the
• 43:46
  end of your analysis of the dream?
• 43:50
  Ginny Jordan: I think it affirms something that I've been feeling for a
• 43:52
  number of years, having turned 70 this year, that this is fulfillment time.
• 43:59
  It's like to let myself be that full.
• 44:02
  Okay.
• 44:03
  And not, not be afraid of my own fullness and iridescent possibility
• 44:09
  to, you know, to fill myself in with the truth of this being.
• 44:14
  It's not really about an arrogance or a, it's just like, wow, fill yourself.
• 44:19
  Rupert Isaacson: Now this is interesting to me because we haven't even gone
• 44:21
  into yet in the podcast the stuff you've actually done in your life
• 44:24
  Which we're about to but it would seem to me knowing you for 20 odd
• 44:29
  years a little bit more well, Ginny, I mean, yes blindingly obvious.
• 44:33
  You've just done all this amazing shit and You're gonna probably keep doing lots
• 44:37
  of amazing shit because that seems to be what you do but why then are you only now?
• 44:43
  being shown You That it's time to go into this
• 44:49
  room of your true power, your true pearls, your true, your true treasures.
• 44:55
  Given that you've been at it for an awful long time, what do
• 44:57
  you think is going on with that?
• 44:59
  Ginny Jordan: That's a great question.
• 45:01
  Well, it's just really pointing to my psychology, isn't it?
• 45:04
  That I can say, oh, and you can say, oh, my God, you've done this and you've done
• 45:08
  this, but to actually let myself sink into the depth of that and have it hook
• 45:14
  into the part of me that always cared so much that I have an impact in the world
• 45:18
  that I could, my caring could translate.
• 45:21
  That's something that hasn't fully It's sort of like I do what I do, you know,
• 45:25
  it's same, sometimes it feels like magic and easy and, you know, but to really
• 45:29
  feel, really experience the depth of that, let's call it mission fulfilled.
• 45:35
  At this stage in my life when I can see, you know, the sun
• 45:38
  is going to set here, right?
• 45:41
  It is, you know, I've 70, like I go, Oh my God, that's 10 years from 80.
• 45:46
  So it's maybe resting in the back wave of the truth of my life and what I've
• 45:52
  been, the pearls I've been able to offer.
• 45:54
  I just
• 45:55
  Rupert Isaacson: go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
• 45:56
  Sorry.
• 45:57
  Well,
• 45:58
  Ginny Jordan: you'd be my psychologist.
• 45:59
  Go for it.
• 46:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, I just got an intuitive
• 46:03
  picture.
• 46:06
  And the intuitive picture I got is that the person going in to
• 46:11
  the room is the younger you.
• 46:16
  And the younger you is really the next, the younger generation and that the
• 46:23
  pearls of wisdom, the treasure trove that, of experience that you have to
• 46:27
  offer that you have amassed through this lifetime now needs to be opened up to
• 46:33
  those younger yous that are now coming.
• 46:36
  Ginny Jordan: Beautiful.
• 46:37
  Beautiful.
• 46:39
  Rupert Isaacson: But that was just and it's funny, I got
• 46:40
  a little physical feeling.
• 46:43
  In my solar plexus, and then that image popped in, but that's,
• 46:47
  that's Rupert's subjective.
• 46:49
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, but it's up to me to have that resonate or not.
• 46:54
  And it does, I can feel that.
• 46:56
  And this is the reason why I'm passionate about the dream world is
• 47:00
  that if I hadn't told you that dream, you wouldn't have engaged me with it.
• 47:04
  You wouldn't have had your own revelation intuition about
• 47:07
  it, which furthers my growth.
• 47:09
  Should
• 47:12
  Rupert Isaacson: we all be having conversations about our dreams?
• 47:15
  Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.
• 47:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Why aren't we?
• 47:18
  Given that we have them every night,
• 47:20
  Ginny Jordan: we've lost that.
• 47:21
  I mean, there are many, you know, tribes in the world.
• 47:24
  The Oshawa come to mind in Ecuador that they would never, ever, ever
• 47:28
  open up a date without having a dream council, because if we're operating
• 47:33
  particularly like, so you and I are in this moment, having this wonderful
• 47:37
  reconnection and relationship, they're waking up every morning with their
• 47:41
  families and extended family, their tribe, so to speak, their village.
• 47:45
  People.
• 47:46
  And if I know that you dreamt about a snake last night and we've having
• 47:50
  counsel and you hear about my pearls, part of our relational field, commitment,
• 47:56
  connection, and love field is to mirror that throughout the whole day.
• 48:00
  So that guess what?
• 48:02
  I mentioned a snake.
• 48:03
  Well, this morning, actually, I did see my bull snakes finally wake
• 48:07
  up from their spring hiding that hide under my bedroom, literally.
• 48:11
  And there was the bull snake.
• 48:13
  And I'm, I'm carrying you today through that your dream of the
• 48:17
  snake and you're carrying me.
• 48:19
  And that was a way of life for many, many tribes.
• 48:22
  And, or you look at you know, dream cultures in Australia you
• 48:27
  know, landscape was the dream.
• 48:29
  That's what I meant by the seam of night and day start shifting.
• 48:32
  If you really, if you really open up the seams, we keep them separate.
• 48:37
  You know, we often go to bed at night.
• 48:39
  Whoa.
• 48:40
  You just want to crash, right?
• 48:42
  Just check out.
• 48:43
  And don't want anymore, we're just trying to recover because there's
• 48:46
  been just a mass amount of content and stimulus and we just need recovery.
• 48:51
  But imagine it wasn't like that.
• 48:53
  Imagine your, your day life completely speaks to your
• 48:57
  nightlife and all the way around.
• 48:59
  But
• 49:00
  Rupert Isaacson: it's interesting.
• 49:01
  The messages we get when we're younger, you know.
• 49:03
  So I remember once trying to recount a dream of mine to my great aunt,
• 49:08
  who was a famously acerbic lady.
• 49:11
  And she was also my way into horses.
• 49:13
  And so I had this weird, if any of you have ever read Great Expectations,
• 49:18
  it was a bit like Miss Havisham.
• 49:20
  And Pip in the Miss Havisham is the sort of mad old, not terribly nice
• 49:25
  lady, but very interesting lady who lives in the grand old house.
• 49:28
  And Pip is the boy who's sort of sent to, to live there.
• 49:31
  And that was me.
• 49:32
  She, she lived in this old decaying house, which had been very grand.
• 49:35
  There had been money.
• 49:36
  It had been a bit aristocratic at one point, the money had all been drunk away.
• 49:40
  And now she lived in the sort of ruins of the house, but there was still old stables
• 49:43
  with some old retired horses in it.
• 49:44
  And I.
• 49:46
  Found mine.
• 49:46
  I used to spend every weekend and every holiday with her because I kept the
• 49:50
  horse that I bought As a teenager with the money that I made from a junk store
• 49:57
  Her house and so we had this strange relationship and she she wasn't very nice
• 50:00
  But she was definitely the the portal into that world for me And I remember
• 50:05
  once trying to record recount a dream to her and she turned to me and said
• 50:08
  and that's a withering Lee sarcastic English way and You know, Rupert, I
• 50:14
  have to tell you that the truth is there's nothing more boring than having
• 50:20
  to listen to somebody else's dreams.
• 50:23
  And in one, the guillotine, you know, I sort of never talked about them again.
• 50:29
  And I wonder if, so, so, but so behind what you say, and we haven't,
• 50:34
  again, we haven't gone on to all the amazing stuff that you've done,
• 50:37
  so please listeners keep listening.
• 50:39
  But is what you're really saying that in order to thrive, not just
• 50:46
  survive as a human being, we must live in a spiritual dimension, it's.
• 50:53
  Just the other half of who we are.
• 50:55
  We are the rational half of us and the irrational half of us.
• 50:57
  And we just slowly sort of spiritually starve to death and
• 51:02
  disappear into, you know, misery.
• 51:04
  If we don't live the spiritual life and the first and most immediate key
• 51:10
  to that spiritual life is our dreams.
• 51:14
  Ginny Jordan: I would say, yes, I don't know if it's the 1st and most immediate.
• 51:18
  It's not everybody's language.
• 51:20
  Some people work their whole lives off.
• 51:22
  They so want to remember dreams and it's almost impossible for them.
• 51:26
  And there are lots of tricks.
• 51:28
  I could share.
• 51:28
  We're not going to do that now that to help with that.
• 51:31
  It's a portal for some more than others, and that's just the way it is.
• 51:35
  And we could, some people would put it down to biochemistry,
• 51:39
  you know, it doesn't matter.
• 51:41
  So it is a, it is 1 of the many doors you can, you can walk through the same door.
• 51:46
  If you've got all your senses open in the, in the forest.
• 51:50
  You know, it's, it's that that content can arrive, just that can be at its own
• 51:55
  dream where suddenly you're noticing right things because your senses are awake.
• 52:02
  So it's whatever door that is there to provide an opportunity
• 52:07
  for us to wake, to really wake
• 52:09
  Rupert Isaacson: up.
• 52:11
  I'm playing devil's advocate for the listeners that might say, well,
• 52:13
  you know, I, I don't need, you know, why do I need to do this?
• 52:18
  Is it about thriving?
• 52:19
  Is it about?
• 52:21
  actually not being depressed?
• 52:23
  Is it about
• 52:26
  being alive on the planet in a way that is more joyful?
• 52:31
  What's in it for us to engage with our dreams or engage spiritually in this way?
• 52:39
  Ginny Jordan: I think it's simple.
• 52:40
  If you want to have a meaningful life, a life that really translates
• 52:44
  to you and your, your meaning base is going to be different than mine.
• 52:47
  But if you really want to have a meaningful life, if you don't want
• 52:51
  to just go through the motions of life, you know, sort of half awake or
• 52:55
  sleepwalking or, you know, wondering there's something unfulfilled,
• 53:00
  something that's not happening.
• 53:01
  I'm, you know, low grade depression, however it manifests.
• 53:05
  This is one of the more extraordinary ways to open up that deep felt experience.
• 53:11
  There's something meaningful going on here.
• 53:13
  There's something larger than just this little being sitting over
• 53:17
  here and that being over there that is moving through this existence.
• 53:22
  And there are a million names for that thing.
• 53:24
  You know, it's, some would call that God, some would call that great
• 53:29
  spirit, some would call it mother, father, divine someone called the Dao,
• 53:34
  some, whatever you, doesn't matter.
• 53:36
  It's it's the, the thing that seeds life with the richness and the texture
• 53:42
  of this very precious existence that is, is so brief, but so potent.
• 53:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Beautifully put.
• 53:55
  Okay, so, when I met you, you had been obviously doing this type
• 54:00
  of therapy work for a long time.
• 54:02
  You'd also gone through marriage and parenthood.
• 54:07
  You had had children.
• 54:08
  Those children, when I first met you, were already grown.
• 54:12
  And when I first met you, you were already a mover and shaker in education.
• 54:20
  In climate change before anyone was even talking about it, and
• 54:25
  then went on to put out some.
• 54:28
  Extremely sort of policy changing bits of media that have resonated,
• 54:35
  you know, through the decades and got things actually done.
• 54:39
  And then I also knew you as you were starting this thing called Bead for Life
• 54:44
  with women in Africa doing microfinance.
• 54:47
  How did you?
• 54:48
  which has grown into something huge, which I hope you'll tell us about.
• 54:53
  How did you go from, okay, well, I'm a therapist.
• 54:55
  There's lots of therapists out there.
• 54:57
  And yes, I'm doing good in the world, but I'm, you know, a therapist and I'm a mom.
• 55:02
  Okay, great.
• 55:03
  I'm putting nice human beings into the world.
• 55:06
  And I've met your children, at least I met two of them and
• 55:08
  they're great human beings.
• 55:10
  So job done.
• 55:11
  How do you suddenly go from that to the kind of world stage?
• 55:17
  That you've been operating on since I've known you, what happened?
• 55:22
  Ginny Jordan: Well, I got very sick.
• 55:25
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 55:26
  Ginny Jordan: I was 35 and I was after my third child was born.
• 55:30
  I just really had a hard time recovering and I knew something was wrong.
• 55:34
  And talk about dreams.
• 55:36
  I had some pretty bad dreams.
• 55:38
  Prophetic dreams that something was not right and long story
• 55:42
  short, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and a very aggressive form.
• 55:47
  So at 35 at 35 did not look how old at that time.
• 55:53
  They were eight, six, and two shit.
• 55:55
  Okay.
• 55:56
  That I really remember.
• 55:58
  And you know, as anybody knows, you know, when you go through a, you
• 56:01
  know, a diagnosis or extreme health crisis, you know, your, your, your
• 56:05
  life flips upside down and you're very quickly measuring everything.
• 56:10
  And it all becomes about measurement, you know, everything from how much time
• 56:14
  might I have left to what really matters?
• 56:17
  What's the priority?
• 56:18
  How do I measure those things?
• 56:20
  So it was a deep time, deep time of doing inventory, taking a look at what internal
• 56:26
  resources I had to meet this challenge.
• 56:28
  And Long story short, you know, it was a dramatic few years of, you know, surgeries
• 56:34
  and chemotherapy and but I couldn't return to this sort of classic therapy
• 56:42
  world that I was in you know, first world problems took on a different proportion.
• 56:46
  I couldn't sit there in the room when somebody was just furious at their
• 56:50
  husband, and he didn't like the tile she chose for the bathroom or whatever.
• 56:54
  I just was like, I can't do this.
• 56:56
  And I wanted to get on the ground where.
• 56:59
  There was a different relationship to suffering.
• 57:02
  And people that daily lives, you know, they're just, they're in survival
• 57:07
  in many third world countries.
• 57:09
  And I just had a deep call and knowing that I needed that.
• 57:14
  And so as serendipity would have it, a good friend of mine who's an
• 57:18
  AIDS doctor was going to Uganda.
• 57:22
  And I asked if I could come, my daughters were very interested
• 57:25
  in the HIV issue at the time.
• 57:26
  And I thought, let's take them there and give them a real.
• 57:29
  Experience and we ran, we went going through refugee camps
• 57:34
  after refugee camps and you know, looking at extreme suffering.
• 57:38
  And there was an extraordinary group of women that were making beads out
• 57:42
  of paper and like, they were gorgeous.
• 57:46
  Hard to imagine, but take a piece of paper from a magazine, you know, cut out a
• 57:52
  triangle, make a bead and make a necklace.
• 57:54
  And they had piles of them, necklaces and bracelets and earrings, but
• 57:57
  they had no, hundreds of women, but they had no way to market them.
• 58:02
  And suddenly it was my friend and I that were there together.
• 58:05
  We just, we saw it.
• 58:07
  It's like, Oh, this, we took the beads after being over
• 58:11
  there for a month or six weeks.
• 58:14
  And as Again, synchronistic moment where a friend heard about it
• 58:18
  and sent, sent them to Oprah.
• 58:21
  And then suddenly we're in Oprah's magazine and 400 words in the O magazine.
• 58:25
  And suddenly we had a real problem, which was a huge demand.
• 58:31
  And we hadn't even put together an organization.
• 58:35
  We were just sort of clueless how to do that part.
• 58:38
  And that was the whole learning curve to our commitment was
• 58:42
  to find a, a way to sell this.
• 58:45
  Well, product but basically our interest was never actually, it was not micro loan.
• 58:50
  And we were kind of opposed to that.
• 58:52
  It was much more how how, how do you create the pathway for a woman who makes
• 58:58
  2 a day pounding road base in the hot sun to 10 a day where she can afford school
• 59:05
  fees for her children and medicine.
• 59:08
  And for her children and food and this, so this was an income generating project
• 59:14
  and, you know, hundreds, thousands and thousands of volunteers eventually around
• 59:19
  the world participated in selling these beads and hosting like a Tupperware
• 59:23
  party model, where you sell the beads and tell the story of these amazing women.
• 59:28
  And then it morphed over time years, this was a good 17 years of my life.
• 59:33
  It, it morphed into what's now called the street business school, which
• 59:38
  is a really incredible on the ground grassroots curriculum a teaching
• 59:44
  curriculum of how a woman can go from extreme poverty to Being a true
• 59:50
  entrepreneur and having many businesses.
• 59:52
  So that's where it's landed.
• 59:53
  So we started in Uganda and now we're in 40 some other countries and it's.
• 59:59
  It's got a life of its own.
• 1:00:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Why were you opposed to micro learning and
• 1:00:04
  are you still opposed to it?
• 1:00:06
  Ginny Jordan: Well, those, you know, go back to the days when, you know,
• 1:00:09
  that was really kind of just beginning and the interest payments themselves
• 1:00:14
  often became a very tricky thing.
• 1:00:17
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:00:17
  Ginny Jordan: And there were some organizations that You know, really looked
• 1:00:21
  like they were in service to Loney, but actually would start raising interest
• 1:00:25
  rates if you couldn't pay it back, you know, within the 1st year and we've kind
• 1:00:29
  of our motto was, you know, we weren't it was like a leg up and not a handout.
• 1:00:36
  Not a handout in any way, because what these women, you know, we discovered,
• 1:00:41
  I'm making big generalizations, but it was our felt experience consistently.
• 1:00:46
  I mean, they had every desire, every desire to work.
• 1:00:52
  They just needed, right?
• 1:00:54
  The, the support and context, which we could create.
• 1:00:58
  Rupert Isaacson: So you, you in the early stages, and I guess that's a collective
• 1:01:02
  view, were buying these beautiful beads.
• 1:01:06
  And I've seen the beads.
• 1:01:06
  They are extraordinary.
• 1:01:07
  You'd never know they were made out of what they make
• 1:01:10
  and let alone magazine paper.
• 1:01:12
  You know, they, they look stunning.
• 1:01:14
  You were initially just what, from your own pocket, just buying them
• 1:01:17
  and then thinking, Oh my gosh, how do we, how do we sell these things?
• 1:01:21
  And brainstorming with each other and coming up with eventually the
• 1:01:24
  idea of the sort of Tupperware thing.
• 1:01:27
  How did you do it?
• 1:01:31
  Ginny Jordan: Well, some of it was, you know, the minute you work in another
• 1:01:34
  culture, you've got to be humble because you don't really know what you're doing.
• 1:01:39
  You really don't.
• 1:01:40
  And to assume that we as sort of my partner and I, 2 white women
• 1:01:44
  really had a handle on, you know, how things worked in Africa.
• 1:01:47
  I mean, within the 1st, months, we're encountering all kinds of
• 1:01:51
  corruption and things that were so shocking, upsetting to us.
• 1:01:54
  And it was like, well, wait a minute here.
• 1:01:56
  This is a way of life.
• 1:01:57
  How do you work with that?
• 1:01:58
  What are our values?
• 1:01:59
  How do we.
• 1:02:00
  Inject that without asserting that as a way to grow an organization.
• 1:02:05
  So it was a huge learning curve.
• 1:02:07
  You know, we made mistakes.
• 1:02:08
  We did amazingly exciting things.
• 1:02:11
  We partnered with all kinds of British airlines would fly the, you know, all
• 1:02:17
  their use magazines and give them to us and, you know, Habitat for Humanity.
• 1:02:22
  We had a partnership with them and we bought a piece of land.
• 1:02:25
  We made, we were very made serious profit.
• 1:02:29
  In our early years, when we were just simply a profit making
• 1:02:33
  organization and you know, what do we do with this extra money?
• 1:02:36
  We can't just sort of park it.
• 1:02:38
  So we bought, we bought land and then the women built their own village.
• 1:02:42
  You know, we got partnerships.
• 1:02:44
  So there was sweat in the game.
• 1:02:46
  So we had some core principles that we really believed in.
• 1:02:49
  But the, the, the course of that.
• 1:02:54
  You know, river, so to speak, just took us down some wild rapids of
• 1:02:58
  just rapid learning and mistakes, and we would regroup and we were smart
• 1:03:03
  enough to know what we didn't know.
• 1:03:05
  And that probably was why we were successful.
• 1:03:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Now you talk about the, you know, you got on Oprah,
• 1:03:12
  you got on Oprah magazine and you partnered with British Airways, you
• 1:03:15
  partnered with Habitat for Humanity.
• 1:03:17
  Well, look, I run nonprofits and I know how difficult it is to get through
• 1:03:23
  Those particular types of doors.
• 1:03:25
  How'd you do it?
• 1:03:27
  Ginny Jordan: We were smart enough to hire at a certain point, a full time
• 1:03:30
  social media, you know, marketing person.
• 1:03:35
  So we got on every major.
• 1:03:38
  TV, you know, good morning, America.
• 1:03:40
  You know, we were, we would go to New York and, you know, and at the time,
• 1:03:46
  Rupert, it was the story to be told now, you know, fair trade products connected
• 1:03:52
  to, you know, communities, you know, is.
• 1:03:56
  Pretty much out there, you know, and I, I don't think we would do nearly so well.
• 1:04:01
  Now we were right at the beginning, 17 years ago of, wow, look at this product.
• 1:04:06
  Now I'm going to, it's less about selling you a product, but I'm
• 1:04:09
  going to tell you the story of these women and they carried story.
• 1:04:14
  And then the women that would host the parties to sell them would take that
• 1:04:19
  story as though it was theirs as well.
• 1:04:22
  And then that became a way in which story could move through a product, you know,
• 1:04:28
  yes, they're beautiful and lovely where it started getting painful and difficult
• 1:04:32
  when we had to keep kind of coming up with the next cool marketing thing that
• 1:04:37
  was not in our hearts, you know, to like, Oh, now we got the mother's day products.
• 1:04:41
  And that was never a product product first organization.
• 1:04:45
  That was a means to a larger end, which was.
• 1:04:48
  To tell the story and for these women to find ways to elevate themselves with
• 1:04:54
  pride and dignity and dollars in the bank.
• 1:04:58
  So how we did it was you know, really deep, deep listening
• 1:05:03
  to sort of the right course.
• 1:05:06
  And the one that was already kind of in our face that we just had to
• 1:05:10
  recognize that was part of the work.
• 1:05:12
  It's like, oh, these women.
• 1:05:14
  And when you really looked at what they were about, there
• 1:05:16
  was zero issue with motivation.
• 1:05:19
  We didn't even need to go into that door whatsoever.
• 1:05:22
  Big issue around dignity and confidence.
• 1:05:26
  So then we had to map what's the landscape of confidence.
• 1:05:29
  How do you build confidence when you're told your whole life you're
• 1:05:32
  poor and you need a hundred dollars to even think about starting a business.
• 1:05:36
  We had to dispel that mythos.
• 1:05:39
  And say, no, how did you dispel that?
• 1:05:42
  You know, the 1st, modular of the curriculum, as we talk about
• 1:05:45
  assets, you know, 1st of all, you're the most important asset.
• 1:05:50
  You, the, you, the woman, and then, well, what do you have in your hut?
• 1:05:54
  Oh, I've got a, I've got an iron in the corner.
• 1:05:56
  I haven't used in years.
• 1:05:57
  Okay.
• 1:05:58
  That's an asset really grassroots.
• 1:06:02
  That's an asset.
• 1:06:03
  Oh, you've got, you know, cassava growing in the lot plot next door.
• 1:06:07
  Here, there's your next asset.
• 1:06:09
  So kind of dispelling the myth that you suddenly have to have a hundred dollars.
• 1:06:14
  You got to go out and borrow it.
• 1:06:15
  No, you grow that asset.
• 1:06:17
  And then, you know, we put them in groups with each other where
• 1:06:19
  they're coaches for each other.
• 1:06:21
  So, you know, I'm, I'm coach Jenny and I'm saying to coach
• 1:06:24
  Evelyn, you know, you can do that.
• 1:06:27
  We're, we're mapping.
• 1:06:29
  Confidence and a deep sense of this is possible because that's not that's
• 1:06:37
  not rooted deeply in a very poor culture like where we were working.
• 1:06:41
  It's just simply not.
• 1:06:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:06:42
  And that, but you can't just cheerlead people, right?
• 1:06:44
  So for example, if you say, okay, you've got this iron or you've got this cassava
• 1:06:48
  that's growing, these are your assets.
• 1:06:50
  How do you teach them?
• 1:06:54
  Show somebody who doesn't Know how to use that as an asset, how to,
• 1:06:58
  what are the nuts and bolts of that?
• 1:07:01
  Ginny Jordan: Well, we would go with them to market.
• 1:07:03
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:07:04
  Ginny Jordan: Sell, sell, go, go together and sell the goods.
• 1:07:08
  And then, you know, one of the, one of the modulars of the curriculum
• 1:07:12
  is they're each given, you know, the equivalent of 20 bucks.
• 1:07:16
  And then they get to observe how they spent the money toward the
• 1:07:19
  business that they finally decided.
• 1:07:21
  And it's a process to look at what your talent is and what your assets are so
• 1:07:26
  that you're going to be successful.
• 1:07:28
  So if you think you've got some talent sewing, okay, how the hell are
• 1:07:31
  you going to get a sewing machine?
• 1:07:33
  How is that going to be doing?
• 1:07:35
  We'd walk them through right?
• 1:07:37
  The way the pathway to be able to do that.
• 1:07:40
  And so they would certain point get 20 dollars.
• 1:07:43
  Then they come back and reflect on.
• 1:07:45
  Oh, I think I made a mistake because I gave, you know, half of it to my
• 1:07:48
  uncle to build me a vegetable stall and he just flaked off with it.
• 1:07:53
  Oops.
• 1:07:54
  Right, so just learning on the ground, I mean, really just we're talking really
• 1:07:58
  grassroots learning and being completely accompanied in the learning process.
• 1:08:04
  So that, you know, they're assured that they're actually.
• 1:08:07
  Going to be successful and, you know, we've we've had, you know,
• 1:08:12
  I can't remember the name of.
• 1:08:14
  Wharton Business School, they did a huge analysis of our organization.
• 1:08:17
  And, you know, we have serious, we spent a lot of time doing
• 1:08:20
  really rounded data analysis.
• 1:08:22
  So it's not just narratives.
• 1:08:24
  I'm not just telling you lovely stories.
• 1:08:26
  And we had 85 percent success rate of women permanently getting out of poverty.
• 1:08:32
  Rupert Isaacson: Here's a question.
• 1:08:34
  So one would expect, let's say, There's an entrepreneur out there and
• 1:08:41
  that entrepreneur feels a sense of mission and goes and helps poor people
• 1:08:45
  become entrepreneurs You had come out of counterculture Radical feminism
• 1:08:52
  radical everything become a Therapist become a mother now suddenly you're
• 1:08:59
  an entrepreneur coaching entrepreneurs
• 1:09:03
  from what background and how
• 1:09:05
  Ginny Jordan: I would say little background, very little background, but
• 1:09:11
  definitely enough of the right attitude.
• 1:09:13
  And as I said, illness set me on a very particular course.
• 1:09:18
  Rupert Isaacson: What made you able as someone who hadn't
• 1:09:21
  engaged as an entrepreneur?
• 1:09:22
  I mean, of course, everyone who runs their own business, you have been running a
• 1:09:25
  successful therapy business at that point.
• 1:09:27
  So of course you were an entrepreneur to that degree, but
• 1:09:29
  what made you able to do that?
• 1:09:30
  What we think of in terms of the cliche of an entrepreneur made
• 1:09:37
  you feel that you had the tools for this Why didn't you feel that you were the
• 1:09:44
  one needing with that myth of I need the hundred bucks, you know what I mean?
• 1:09:48
  Right.
• 1:09:49
  What what?
• 1:09:50
  Where do you those tools from and where did you get the practical business tools
• 1:09:53
  from of showing them how to create assets?
• 1:09:56
  When you had actually come from rather a different world
• 1:10:00
  Ginny Jordan: Well, we, we knew which women tend to know is that
• 1:10:06
  it's a collaboration and that it's not a hierarchy and that, you know,
• 1:10:11
  we really were smart enough to know where our talent was and where it
• 1:10:16
  wasn't and we got the right talent.
• 1:10:18
  We, we had a business manager that, you know, really taught us in many ways.
• 1:10:23
  My partner was also a therapist, so, I mean, we, we used to laugh,
• 1:10:28
  say, well, we're kind of the bozos here, you know, like, but, but what
• 1:10:31
  we brought to the table was the vision was the capacity, right?
• 1:10:37
  To stay with it.
• 1:10:39
  We knew we had that.
• 1:10:40
  Drive we also understood what fundamentally women need the language
• 1:10:46
  of the feminine, like these women, when you've really listened and watched,
• 1:10:51
  they're constantly dancing and constantly singing, even through their suffering,
• 1:10:57
  even through their wailing to having just lost a child you know, to dehydration.
• 1:11:02
  It's like, you know, shocking, shocking for us to like, how, how
• 1:11:06
  are you managing that level of grief?
• 1:11:08
  They, you know, they do it together.
• 1:11:10
  And observing that and understanding like how, you know, we, I can't
• 1:11:15
  tell you how many parties we hosted, how many dances it was like, oh,
• 1:11:19
  we brought so much celebrate.
• 1:11:20
  They taught us so much about that, right.
• 1:11:22
  And we kind of could, we could, you know, as women, we could feel what
• 1:11:26
  it is that women are about and we are a collective and we do have that.
• 1:11:31
  I'm not saying men don't, but we've got, um.
• 1:11:35
  Different kind of wider capacity and easy for me to say, I with no shame whatsoever.
• 1:11:41
  We are bozos.
• 1:11:43
  We do not know how to do this, but boy, do we know some amazing people who do.
• 1:11:48
  And then what happened, which was part of the magic part of it was the right
• 1:11:52
  people show up at the right time.
• 1:11:54
  When you're clear, it's almost like a law of gravity.
• 1:11:57
  Suddenly there they are at the door and said, I'm going to help you with this.
• 1:12:00
  Thanks.
• 1:12:01
  I'm going to help you with this.
• 1:12:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Were you consciously saying, like, I remember I had
• 1:12:05
  this moment with my son when I was sort of standing in a field.
• 1:12:09
  Not knowing what to do when he was at the height of his severity and I
• 1:12:13
  was rousing I don't I need a mentor.
• 1:12:15
  I need who can who is it who can show me what to do?
• 1:12:20
  Because I don't know and then I was thinking okay.
• 1:12:23
  Well, who who would this mentor be and my imagination?
• 1:12:26
  Well, it has to be someone who's autistic right?
• 1:12:28
  Because otherwise, whatever they've got is an opinion not not experience and
• 1:12:33
  then, you know, they had to start it where my son started and somehow made it.
• 1:12:36
  Who's that person?
• 1:12:37
  I went, oh, actually that's Dr.
• 1:12:38
  Temple Grandin, you know, and then I, I went to her and asked for mentorship.
• 1:12:42
  Was it kind of like that?
• 1:12:43
  Were you going, okay, shit, you know, who are going to be our mentors here and
• 1:12:48
  how do we actively go out to find them?
• 1:12:50
  Ginny Jordan: Absolutely.
• 1:12:51
  That's exactly it.
• 1:12:52
  Yep.
• 1:12:53
  And, you know, it requires a willingness to be kind of humble
• 1:12:56
  enough to know, whoa, we really don't, we don't know how to do that.
• 1:13:00
  The woman that helped us develop this, I mean, rock solid curriculum
• 1:13:04
  which we finally figured out after years that that was our real
• 1:13:07
  talent is we knew the ingredients.
• 1:13:10
  Right.
• 1:13:11
  It wasn't about selling beads.
• 1:13:12
  It was actually the ingredients.
• 1:13:13
  As I said, one of the key ingredients is building that landscape of
• 1:13:16
  confidence, which seems sort of abstract and somewhat irrelevant.
• 1:13:21
  It isn't, that's the key.
• 1:13:23
  And we, we knew that we saw that over and over again.
• 1:13:25
  And she had this amazing way of breaking this whole thing down into a sequenced
• 1:13:31
  curriculum that built on itself.
• 1:13:34
  That embedded in it were all these principles and then the
• 1:13:38
  real practicalities involved in, in actually creating businesses.
• 1:13:43
  That are sustainable,
• 1:13:44
  Rupert Isaacson: who was this mentor
• 1:13:48
  Ginny Jordan: to a woman that we found, you know, and you know, I
• 1:13:51
  don't know what more to say about her.
• 1:13:52
  She probably wouldn't want to be named because she's, she's very, she's very,
• 1:13:56
  Rupert Isaacson: everyone will be, you know, contacting her.
• 1:13:59
  Ginny Jordan: Maybe, but, you know, she's, she's extraordinary and, you
• 1:14:04
  know, emerges an amazing leader and willingness to fly to country to
• 1:14:08
  country to country, you know, and we
• 1:14:10
  Rupert Isaacson: already knew, or was it someone that you sought out who kind
• 1:14:14
  of popped into your path once you'd sort of thrown out to the universe?
• 1:14:20
  Come on, God, where's my mentor?
• 1:14:22
  Ginny Jordan: Yes.
• 1:14:22
  Yeah, we didn't know, we didn't know her.
• 1:14:25
  We knew people who might know people, but again, it's just that
• 1:14:29
  process that we all go through and are ready to really reach out.
• 1:14:32
  And, but you know, you gotta, you gotta shoot that arrow with utter clarity.
• 1:14:36
  I learned that years and years, years of working, you know, different,
• 1:14:41
  different forms of manifestation.
• 1:14:43
  That the clarity is key.
• 1:14:45
  It's not that you have to have everything, but, you know, what
• 1:14:48
  are you really shooting for
• 1:14:49
  Rupert Isaacson: clarity?
• 1:14:50
  And the really,
• 1:14:51
  Ginny Jordan: yeah, we were really shooting for a big goal, a big hairy goal,
• 1:14:55
  which was, you know, in a 10 year period of time, a million women permanently
• 1:15:01
  out of poverty and you know, we had very particular parameters to what that meant.
• 1:15:11
  Rupert Isaacson: By the way, read I'll say readers because I'm an author, listeners,
• 1:15:15
  don't worry if you're trying to manifest and you're feeling murky and unclear
• 1:15:21
  and you're shooting unclear arrows.
• 1:15:23
  You've got to do that too.
• 1:15:25
  Absolutely.
• 1:15:26
  That you've got to shoot.
• 1:15:27
  You've got a knife
• 1:15:28
  Ginny Jordan: at the target.
• 1:15:29
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:15:30
  Ginny Jordan: They got to fail.
• 1:15:31
  You know, we failed a lot.
• 1:15:33
  There are some big mistakes we made that look back, I'm just kind of
• 1:15:36
  horrified, but, you know, boy, did it get us on the right course, you
• 1:15:40
  know, you just course correct if you're determined which we were.
• 1:15:44
  Rupert Isaacson: Two other things that you did which I can speak to is right
• 1:15:48
  at the time that you were doing this the work that I was doing with the Bushmen
• 1:15:53
  in the Kalahari, the Khoisan Bushmen on their land claims rights came along.
• 1:15:58
  And you.
• 1:16:00
  acted as a philanthropist to us.
• 1:16:03
  You, you, you helped us to get going.
• 1:16:06
  And listeners, what happened was as a result of that early support
• 1:16:13
  two key hunter gatherer groups in Southern Africa collectively won the
• 1:16:20
  five largest land claims in African history with very little money up
• 1:16:25
  against seemingly impossible odds.
• 1:16:29
  So that was my experience.
• 1:16:31
  Also, if you're Influence.
• 1:16:33
  And then also at that, shortly after that, I, I began the
• 1:16:37
  work with Horseboy Foundation.
• 1:16:40
  And you supported that too.
• 1:16:42
  While also going through all the stuff with Bead for Life and
• 1:16:46
  then moving into this other very important work with climate change.
• 1:16:51
  And I remember you beginning to talk to me about climate change.
• 1:16:54
  When people weren't, I mean, it's not that it wasn't around at all, but we
• 1:16:59
  all know, you know, we all know that the conversation has really only become
• 1:17:07
  properly, properly, properly mainstream.
• 1:17:09
  I think since COVID, I think that pre that was still more or less on
• 1:17:16
  the margins and the times that you, when you were talking about it and
• 1:17:19
  getting really actively involved.
• 1:17:20
  I think most people were still.
• 1:17:23
  trying to turn a blind eye and you've been very influential in helping them see
• 1:17:29
  a glaring light of, of all the pimples and warts et cetera, through a series
• 1:17:34
  of extraordinary films that have had an amazing, um, influence on also getting
• 1:17:41
  policy changes and things like that.
• 1:17:43
  Can you tell us about Chasing Ice and Chasing Coral, how you got
• 1:17:47
  involved in those movies, what those movies were, still are, they're out
• 1:17:51
  there, people should watch them.
• 1:17:52
  And what, what they did.
• 1:17:57
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, well, I'll begin with chasing ice because
• 1:17:59
  that was really my my initiation.
• 1:18:02
  I, you know, have the good fortune of Jim Balogh, who the film is about is
• 1:18:07
  a National Geographic, post National Geographic photographer, who's really
• 1:18:11
  spent most of his career documenting, documenting, we'll call it change.
• 1:18:16
  And then it.
• 1:18:18
  Species change extinction and climate to be kind of became more and more his
• 1:18:23
  passion and particularly climate is being observed through on glaciers.
• 1:18:28
  So, being a good friend and being pretty intrigued and I did some
• 1:18:33
  supporting up of his organization called extreme ice survey.
• 1:18:37
  What he did is he, he designed and built cameras that could
• 1:18:41
  withstand high temperatures.
• 1:18:43
  I mean, cold temperatures and high winds on glaciers, and
• 1:18:46
  it would operate time lapse.
• 1:18:48
  So they would be basically running themselves.
• 1:18:52
  And he put these, he put these all over the glaciers, Iceland and Greenland,
• 1:18:57
  and eventually parts of America and Switzerland all over the world and
• 1:19:01
  Antarctica eventually to try to document in real time climate change and these
• 1:19:07
  time lapse images that are astounding.
• 1:19:09
  And if people haven't seen the film, it's, it's so worth watching.
• 1:19:13
  It's an old story now in many ways but it was the first.
• 1:19:18
  Real, it was like eyeballs on the glacier eyeballs on climate change.
• 1:19:21
  It was not political, nothing about it.
• 1:19:24
  It was political.
• 1:19:25
  It's like, take a look here.
• 1:19:28
  It is it's in your face now.
• 1:19:29
  And what you see rapidly in a time lapse, you'll see a whole sequence of frames
• 1:19:34
  where the glacier was kind of, you know, right in front in front and all of a
• 1:19:38
  sudden it's receded, but it looks, you know, like equivalent of a mile and a.
• 1:19:43
  X number year period.
• 1:19:44
  And it's like, you can't argue with that.
• 1:19:46
  So it was a brilliant and very determined mission that he had.
• 1:19:50
  I loved it.
• 1:19:51
  You know, I went to Greenland, I was in those helicopters flying over
• 1:19:55
  the glacier and you know, that was whatever it was 15 some years ago.
• 1:20:00
  And it, I had that privilege.
• 1:20:03
  And it was a privilege it was massively depressing.
• 1:20:07
  I came home and practically couldn't get out of bed for three
• 1:20:10
  weeks because I saw the level of glacial melt from that perspective.
• 1:20:15
  And it was just very easy for me to translate that to sea rise.
• 1:20:19
  It just was just simple equation and it was shocking.
• 1:20:25
  And so that really launched my commitment to the, to trying to
• 1:20:29
  tell the story of climate change and trying to kind of wake us up.
• 1:20:33
  You know, Al Gore certainly did that and inconvenient truth is just,
• 1:20:37
  you know, those first beginning.
• 1:20:38
  Let's tell the truth.
• 1:20:39
  What's really happening chasing the other films came along because I love
• 1:20:43
  film, you know, I think next life.
• 1:20:46
  I might I might go into movies.
• 1:20:48
  Let's see.
• 1:20:49
  It's like I love to edit.
• 1:20:51
  I love being behind a camera and looking at how to tell the story and how to
• 1:20:55
  tell it in the best possible way.
• 1:20:57
  So that was part of my just selfish.
• 1:21:01
  It's like, get me in the room when we're especially editing film to
• 1:21:06
  sort of see what I could bring to it.
• 1:21:08
  And again, films are huge number of people as a whole team, but that's been a real
• 1:21:14
  privilege for me to work on these films.
• 1:21:17
  And then they morphed into, I've got very close to the director of chasing eyes,
• 1:21:22
  a young, amazing man, Jeff Orlowski.
• 1:21:25
  And exposure labs and we worked on a film, probably many of your, your listeners
• 1:21:32
  have watched, which is called the social dilemma, trying to tell that story of
• 1:21:37
  Rupert Isaacson: before we get to the social dilemma.
• 1:21:38
  Ginny Jordan: Okay.
• 1:21:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Coral.
• 1:21:40
  Tell us about chasing coral.
• 1:21:42
  Ginny Jordan: You know, obviously the same story from now, now, not on
• 1:21:45
  top of a mountain, but down under the ocean and, and really looking at the,
• 1:21:50
  the story of climate change and the warming of the oceans through coral.
• 1:21:54
  And that was actually not a good film until we worked our
• 1:21:58
  asses off to figure out how to.
• 1:22:00
  so much.
• 1:22:00
  Help everyone fall in love with coral and understand, you know, it's
• 1:22:05
  not just a concept that these, you know, these are bleaching and dying
• 1:22:10
  these reefs all over the world.
• 1:22:11
  But like, why do you want to love this coral?
• 1:22:15
  How critical it is to our ecosystem?
• 1:22:17
  So that was a very passionate film and we found a wonderful young.
• 1:22:22
  Kid who was kind of a geek about oceans that since he was a kid and he kind of
• 1:22:26
  ended up being the savior of that film because we were, that was a hard story to
• 1:22:30
  tell to, to engage people in a way that had a sense of adventure, like chasing
• 1:22:36
  ice has a great sense of adventure in it.
• 1:22:38
  And I think we got, we're successful with it.
• 1:22:41
  You know, the films have done really well, so
• 1:22:46
  they all, they all, they all ended up in Congress.
• 1:22:49
  We found a great way to get them to be shown with you know, they have
• 1:22:53
  a film series for Congress and all of Congress, they all got copies.
• 1:22:58
  And, you know, that was a long time ago.
• 1:23:00
  And, you know, that was a huge awakening.
• 1:23:03
  At a political level,
• 1:23:05
  Rupert Isaacson: did
• 1:23:05
  Ginny Jordan: you ask me a policy?
• 1:23:06
  Rupert Isaacson: Did you see some tangible results politically from those things
• 1:23:12
  from those films that things happened?
• 1:23:15
  Ginny Jordan: Yes.
• 1:23:15
  And no, you know, I don't think anybody should make a film these days without
• 1:23:19
  having a really developed impact strategy because films come and go so quickly.
• 1:23:23
  So, you know, what's your impact strategy?
• 1:23:25
  How are you going to actually.
• 1:23:27
  Move it out into the world in what way, and with chasing ice and coral,
• 1:23:31
  we decided to go to some of these districts, Republican districts that
• 1:23:36
  didn't even believe in climate change.
• 1:23:38
  And we came up with a strategy that we would just saturate those communities,
• 1:23:42
  you know, from the chamber of commerce to the kids in the high schools that
• 1:23:45
  would go home and tell their parents this movie they saw, you know, we just
• 1:23:49
  soaked them and we did get some of those districts to actually go to the Change
• 1:23:53
  their position on climate, but it was a very arduous and expensive strategy.
• 1:23:59
  And so, yes, we certainly had impact and it's very hard to
• 1:24:04
  measure the impact of films.
• 1:24:06
  You know, there's all these studies on, like, how many inputs you
• 1:24:09
  need to actually take an action and it's often a minimum of 6.
• 1:24:14
  So you've got to read about it.
• 1:24:15
  You've got to see it.
• 1:24:16
  You've got to talk to a friend about it.
• 1:24:18
  You've got to have a parent, you know, talk to the kid about, you know, that you
• 1:24:22
  need inputs in order to actually get from.
• 1:24:25
  That's interesting.
• 1:24:26
  Okay.
• 1:24:27
  Well, I'm back to my day to actually, actually, you know,
• 1:24:31
  contributing in some way.
• 1:24:33
  It's, it's complicated,
• 1:24:35
  Rupert Isaacson: right?
• 1:24:36
  But you did get to Congress.
• 1:24:37
  Yeah.
• 1:24:38
  Ginny Jordan: And,
• 1:24:38
  Rupert Isaacson: I do know myself how powerful that can be.
• 1:24:41
  I remember when we got in front of the Congressional Human Rights Caucus with
• 1:24:45
  the Bushmen, and suddenly you had these guys speaking directly to congressmen,
• 1:24:49
  and they could see these people who'd been tortured and kicked off their land
• 1:24:52
  for diamonds, you know, in front of them.
• 1:24:54
  And then things began to happen from that point.
• 1:24:58
  So, now tell us about The Social Dilemma.
• 1:25:01
  That was a really, really interesting film.
• 1:25:04
  And remains a really, really interesting film because I think it's all these
• 1:25:08
  films are still relevant today.
• 1:25:09
  But I think this one is particularly relevant to the youngest
• 1:25:12
  generation that's coming up.
• 1:25:14
  Tell us about that film
• 1:25:17
  Ginny Jordan: in terms of how it was conceived or a lot.
• 1:25:21
  Well, I think, you know, again, the same director, you know,
• 1:25:24
  he talked to me about it.
• 1:25:26
  He, he was working on it and what was the right angle and, you know,
• 1:25:29
  we kind of came up with this idea.
• 1:25:31
  We being many again and not just.
• 1:25:33
  A few of us that a good way to kind of break through the, the resistance
• 1:25:39
  would be to actually have the guy that invented the like button on
• 1:25:43
  Facebook in front of a camera saying, whoops, I didn't have any idea of.
• 1:25:50
  You know, I thought that was a cute idea.
• 1:25:52
  I had no idea that that could translate to, you know, pre teen girl suicide
• 1:25:57
  rate going through the ceiling because, you know, they got, you know, unliked
• 1:26:03
  by, you know, all their friends.
• 1:26:06
  And that drove them to suicide and that trajectory was so shocking
• 1:26:11
  and is shocking, remains shocking.
• 1:26:14
  But, you know, that was the strategy with that film is have the people
• 1:26:18
  that were somewhat innocently.
• 1:26:20
  I mean, not all participating in something that has snowballed into something that
• 1:26:24
  is really seriously out of control.
• 1:26:28
  And I think the, again, that was a, I'm not so sure that film would be as relevant
• 1:26:32
  in this moment because people know a lot more now, but it was the real expose
• 1:26:36
  about how young people in particular being manipulated financially and how
• 1:26:42
  they're actually gathering your data.
• 1:26:44
  And that was, you know, not in everybody's awareness.
• 1:26:47
  Like, Oh, they actually know from the way I shop and the way I communicate on sit,
• 1:26:52
  you know, they know if I'm an introvert or if I'm an extrovert, Oh, they know
• 1:26:56
  if I'll buy this, but I won't buy that.
• 1:26:58
  Oh, they know, I mean, and whoa, you know, and that sense of of exposure
• 1:27:04
  and vulnerability of how much, you know, you know, AI knows about you.
• 1:27:09
  And so that was a great way to tell that story.
• 1:27:13
  And we worked hard to try to figure out how to do it.
• 1:27:15
  It's kind of a hybrid film because there's a theatrical piece within a documentary
• 1:27:20
  that would hybrid model was new.
• 1:27:23
  Not all films have tried that and it was relatively successful
• 1:27:30
  because it was real time.
• 1:27:31
  You see a family really struggling with the issues and then you're listening to,
• 1:27:35
  you know, the, the guy that ran Facebook or Tristan, who was kind of amazing
• 1:27:41
  leader in the field of social media exposure and what is the harm it's causing
• 1:27:47
  Rupert Isaacson: the guy who invented the like button.
• 1:27:50
  I'm
• 1:27:52
  Ginny Jordan: trying to remember his name.
• 1:27:53
  Rupert Isaacson: I've tried.
• 1:27:54
  Yeah.
• 1:27:54
  And it's so interesting is that we know the like button, but we can't remember
• 1:27:57
  the name of the guy who, you know, I remember watching the movie and seeing
• 1:28:02
  him being interviewed and saying, yeah, look, we, we did just think that this
• 1:28:07
  might be something kind of entertaining.
• 1:28:08
  We had no idea.
• 1:28:10
  We had no idea at all that it would become so dark.
• 1:28:14
  And initially we were just.
• 1:28:17
  Obviously excited by the success, but we didn't think it would be anything
• 1:28:21
  other than entrepreneurial fad.
• 1:28:25
  And, and, you know, I think also that a lot of these guys were
• 1:28:29
  just so into the technology.
• 1:28:31
  They were nerds who were just so excited that their day had come.
• 1:28:34
  That it was, it was the revenge of the nerds, Silicon Valley.
• 1:28:37
  It was.
• 1:28:38
  Suddenly all the kids that were getting, who had been teased at school, who had
• 1:28:41
  not been, who had been the butt end of the social scenes in their high schools,
• 1:28:44
  who would have been the ones actually probably going off and getting depressed
• 1:28:47
  and perhaps killing themselves, you know, in, before social media, just through
• 1:28:50
  straight up bullying and ostracism.
• 1:28:52
  Now suddenly they were the arbiters.
• 1:28:55
  And they didn't do it with this Machiavellian plan to get even.
• 1:29:01
  They just were following the brilliance of their technology
• 1:29:06
  and realizing people liked it.
• 1:29:08
  And then, oops we didn't realize we'd invented the atomic bomb.
• 1:29:12
  And I think that's what really came through from the movie when I watched it
• 1:29:16
  was that, you know, like with Oppenheimer, for example, they knew absolutely
• 1:29:21
  what they were trying to develop and why they were trying to develop it.
• 1:29:24
  And they knew exactly what its evil potential was.
• 1:29:28
  And felt that, that they had to, to stop this greater evil, not
• 1:29:33
  knowing that it could lead to greater evils, but not seeing any
• 1:29:36
  alternative at the time and so on.
• 1:29:39
  Whereas that wasn't in any way where these guys were coming from.
• 1:29:43
  They, they thought they were simply providing entertainment and couldn't
• 1:29:47
  have dreamt that it would lead to the,
• 1:29:52
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, well, it was more essentially more than entertainment
• 1:29:56
  because, you know, they were as confused as we've all become
• 1:30:01
  around this notion of connectivity.
• 1:30:04
  And so not really having a measure at the time we have a better
• 1:30:09
  measurement now of the illusion of connectivity and this whole notion of
• 1:30:14
  hyper connectivity as a high value.
• 1:30:17
  And what how that's actually, um, deeply, deeply tearing cultural fabric.
• 1:30:24
  Out from underneath us, and that's, that's the part that,
• 1:30:29
  you know, was short sighted.
• 1:30:30
  They couldn't see that.
• 1:30:31
  You know, we think we're getting you more connected and actually
• 1:30:34
  something else is occurring as well.
• 1:30:36
  That's true at 1 level and another level.
• 1:30:39
  It's actually, it's actually taking away your capacity to connect.
• 1:30:43
  Right?
• 1:30:44
  So, you know, how many young people now know how to exactly like have
• 1:30:49
  build a conversation like you and I are having, you know, how many people are
• 1:30:53
  really going to listen to this whole long podcast, you know, you, right.
• 1:30:57
  We kind of want it, we want it kind of quick.
• 1:30:59
  We want in a hyper way and, you know, they couldn't have
• 1:31:02
  seen that they didn't see that.
• 1:31:04
  To your point, they thought it was kind of fun and lovely and you're
• 1:31:08
  going to feel more connected because someone's going to like you when
• 1:31:10
  you do something and that's so cool.
• 1:31:13
  No, it's embedded in a much deeper, deeper, very more transparent problem
• 1:31:19
  now of where our culture is headed.
• 1:31:22
  Rupert Isaacson: I mean, it's interesting because a lot of the work I do could not
• 1:31:25
  have existed, could not have found its feet without social media, but that was
• 1:31:28
  before I even knew that it was active.
• 1:31:30
  So, for example, when we first put out the small trailer when we
• 1:31:33
  were trying to raise funds to make the documentary for The Horseboy.
• 1:31:37
  There was this new thing called YouTube.
• 1:31:38
  This was this 2006, I think YouTube came out in 2005.
• 1:31:42
  And the young filmmaker, Michael Scott, who I teamed up with to make the horse
• 1:31:47
  boy said, oh, there's this thing.
• 1:31:49
  We could do a little thing and put it out on there, and maybe, who knows,
• 1:31:53
  maybe some people might come and help.
• 1:31:55
  It was one of the first things that went viral.
• 1:31:57
  Back in the day when going viral didn't mean what it means
• 1:32:00
  today, but nonetheless it did.
• 1:32:01
  And because of that all this work that we now do with autism happened.
• 1:32:07
  So that was a result of one aspect of social media, or here we are,
• 1:32:11
  we're talking on Zoom right now.
• 1:32:13
  That is of course another one, but I think where you're right is that we
• 1:32:16
  come out of this analog generation where we learned to communicate
• 1:32:22
  before social media came along.
• 1:32:25
  And then it was added as a sort of a tool that we sometimes like
• 1:32:29
  to engage with and sometimes don't like to engage with, rather than
• 1:32:32
  growing up with it as the tool.
• 1:32:34
  Ginny Jordan: Well said.
• 1:32:37
  And so, you know, we have to pray for these young people
• 1:32:41
  that that's all they've known.
• 1:32:44
  This is what all they've known.
• 1:32:46
  And, you know, how are we going to serve them and re remembering that
• 1:32:50
  discernment that you just named, which is that it's, it's an amazing tool.
• 1:32:54
  That's all it is.
• 1:32:56
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:32:56
  Ginny Jordan: It's a tool.
• 1:32:58
  It's a tool.
• 1:32:59
  But is, does it replace your actual social, right,
• 1:33:03
  interactive felt experience?
• 1:33:05
  No, it can't.
• 1:33:07
  And we've now finally discovered that, right?
• 1:33:11
  Rupert Isaacson: Your film was one of the first ones that,
• 1:33:13
  that alerted people to it.
• 1:33:15
  Yeah.
• 1:33:16
  Ginny Jordan: No, it was, it was obviously the right note in the right moment.
• 1:33:19
  I think 20 million people saw it in the first three weeks.
• 1:33:23
  That was a huge thanks
• 1:33:24
  Rupert Isaacson: to social media,
• 1:33:27
  Ginny Jordan: social media, you got it.
• 1:33:29
  And I'll never forget talking.
• 1:33:30
  I had many, many conversations with young people around the world, and
• 1:33:34
  they all were saying the same things.
• 1:33:36
  Like, how do we, they're not going to throw out, you know, the ending
• 1:33:39
  of it's kind of trite, you know, it's like, well, just get off it.
• 1:33:42
  Well, you know, if you grew up with it and you love it and parts of it are wonderful,
• 1:33:46
  like, how are you going to do that?
• 1:33:47
  But.
• 1:33:48
  Every single one, whether it was a young person in India or where they were in
• 1:33:52
  Pakistan, wherever they were in South America, they all said the same thing.
• 1:33:56
  We've got to come up with better platforms.
• 1:33:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
• 1:33:59
  Ginny Jordan: that and I thought, okay, good challenge for you.
• 1:34:02
  Let's pass that baton to you.
• 1:34:04
  See if you can figure that out.
• 1:34:05
  1st of all, where they're not getting hold of your data.
• 1:34:09
  They're not, you're not being marketed, you know, in a
• 1:34:12
  completely manipulative way.
• 1:34:14
  But 2nd, how do you actually generate.
• 1:34:17
  A tool that actually can supply the connection like you and I are
• 1:34:20
  having right now, and we're safe.
• 1:34:23
  We're saving a whole lot of carbon to do this.
• 1:34:26
  We're not getting on airplanes, you know, all that has its rightful place, but
• 1:34:29
  they're going to have to figure this out because they're not going to throw up.
• 1:34:33
  Why would you?
• 1:34:35
  Rupert Isaacson: I almost wonder if we're going to have to sort of
• 1:34:38
  open, reopen the sort of old schools of philosophy, but within schools.
• 1:34:44
  Of this is how this is how a human being talks to another human being.
• 1:34:51
  Ginny Jordan: I've always wanted I actually developed like, it's probably.
• 1:34:55
  Probably I probably horrified if I looked at it now, but many years ago,
• 1:34:58
  I went on retreat in Greece and I, I wrote a curriculum for high school
• 1:35:02
  kids called the art of communication.
• 1:35:04
  And I thought, like, how do you break down conversation was the art?
• 1:35:10
  Sorry.
• 1:35:10
  It was the art of conversation, not communication.
• 1:35:12
  How do you actually have conversation?
• 1:35:15
  What does that mean?
• 1:35:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Why do you need it?
• 1:35:17
  Yeah.
• 1:35:17
  Ginny Jordan: Why do you need it?
• 1:35:18
  And what does it feel like when, you know, you and I get off the podcast and
• 1:35:23
  we grew something bigger than we knew we could, and that generates a feeling,
• 1:35:29
  not just of exhaustion or depletion, like we've all had those conversations,
• 1:35:33
  but it should, lots of those, it should be, it should be additive.
• 1:35:40
  Right.
• 1:35:40
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:35:41
  Yeah.
• 1:35:41
  It should be.
• 1:35:43
  Ginny Jordan: You're growing something bigger than these two parts could know.
• 1:35:46
  And that's the glory opportunity of real conversation.
• 1:35:51
  But you know, how do you tell a young person who just wants you to get
• 1:35:54
  through it in three seconds, please.
• 1:35:56
  And let's get to the bottom data point or whatever.
• 1:35:58
  It's, it's a lost, sort of a lost art.
• 1:36:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
• 1:36:02
  You can't create, you can't manifest without conversation.
• 1:36:06
  Conversation between people, conversation between people in the divine, but I think
• 1:36:10
  also there's just a straight up nurturing of the individual human in that we are,
• 1:36:19
  they call us sapiens sapiens, right?
• 1:36:21
  But that's a silly name for us, Homo sapiens, it just means the thinking
• 1:36:24
  ape, all apes think, in fact, anything with a brain thinks, you know, octopuses
• 1:36:30
  have ape brains, you know, I mean, it's, that's not specific to our species.
• 1:36:34
  But this, this voice box, this larynx that I've got.
• 1:36:37
  that you've got, with a speaking ape, with a storytelling ape.
• 1:36:41
  That is, other animals vocalize, and many of them vocalize in a very
• 1:36:46
  complex way, but they don't create rap.
• 1:36:48
  And they don't write Shakespeare.
• 1:36:49
  That's, that's us.
• 1:36:51
  That's our species.
• 1:36:52
  And the sort of shamanic thing, you know, story is medicine story is.
• 1:36:55
  So, yeah, that is conversation.
• 1:37:00
  Yeah, it's
• 1:37:00
  Ginny Jordan: back to imagination.
• 1:37:01
  I mean, that was what William Blake meant when all of his work
• 1:37:05
  was kind of in service to what he called divine imagination is
• 1:37:08
  the divine gift of this species.
• 1:37:12
  Right.
• 1:37:12
  Is that we can, we can vocalize, but we can imagine with it.
• 1:37:16
  And off we go insane.
• 1:37:18
  Create creativity as possible.
• 1:37:21
  So, and, and there's a lot of creativity that happens on devices.
• 1:37:25
  My God, you know, so yeah.
• 1:37:28
  Like, but, you know, so then really beginning to understand, analyze,
• 1:37:32
  like actually what might be missing, like, what, what are you actually
• 1:37:37
  having an experience of like when you walk away and it's like, Hmm.
• 1:37:41
  Right.
• 1:37:42
  So.
• 1:37:43
  It's, it's not an easy answer.
• 1:37:45
  It's definitely an important inquiry.
• 1:37:47
  Rupert Isaacson: It's really interesting when we're doing our work, you know,
• 1:37:49
  movement method, horseboy method, we're obviously going into nature
• 1:37:52
  as much as we can, because that's what the human nervous system needs.
• 1:37:56
  People frequently, parents or teachers will say, well, to the
• 1:37:59
  child that we're taking, Oh, you're not, you can't bring your device
• 1:38:03
  because this is your nature time.
• 1:38:05
  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 1:38:07
  Absolutely.
• 1:38:08
  They can bring their device.
• 1:38:09
  Please bring your safety blanket and please and now engage with that in nature.
• 1:38:18
  And what will happen is pretty soon you'll get a bit distracted by nature and you'll
• 1:38:25
  start forgetting to use that device.
• 1:38:27
  And we're not trying to wean you from your device.
• 1:38:29
  In fact, we think your use of this device is a good thing.
• 1:38:32
  However, if it.
• 1:38:34
  You don't also have what your organism needs.
• 1:38:37
  Well, then no, you won't thrive.
• 1:38:39
  But yes, We absolutely accept that we live in the age of devices and they're
• 1:38:43
  not all bad by any means so please engage with it and it's funny how Extreme
• 1:38:47
  and black and white I guess, you know, that's So endemic to our culture, but
• 1:38:53
  Ginny Jordan: that's brilliant.
• 1:38:54
  That's a brilliant way to talk about it.
• 1:38:55
  Rue.
• 1:38:55
  I love that.
• 1:38:57
  This is brilliant.
• 1:38:57
  It's like, no, bring it with you.
• 1:38:59
  And then you, you let this, you know, there is a natural impulse,
• 1:39:03
  whether nature's pulling that out of us or whether another human
• 1:39:07
  is, there is a natural impulse to have this connection that grows.
• 1:39:12
  It just, it's natural.
• 1:39:14
  This is not like all mysterious.
• 1:39:16
  Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.
• 1:39:17
  By the time we say light a fire at night, none of them are on their devices.
• 1:39:23
  We don't even have to try, but their device might be lying
• 1:39:27
  next to them, but they're not on it, but they get back on it.
• 1:39:31
  Maybe they're getting back on it and engaging in a
• 1:39:32
  different type of conversation.
• 1:39:35
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
• 1:39:36
  I love it.
• 1:39:36
  No, and it's spot on.
• 1:39:38
  And like, you know, how often are you and I checking our phones
• 1:39:41
  while we're talking right now?
• 1:39:43
  It's like
• 1:39:43
  Rupert Isaacson: a zillion times.
• 1:39:45
  Ginny Jordan: A zillion times.
• 1:39:46
  Yeah, right.
• 1:39:47
  So not, not, not needed.
• 1:39:49
  But again, that's not, it's not like there's a rule, you
• 1:39:51
  know, it's just, it's just.
• 1:39:54
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, and the phone has set me free because the fact that
• 1:39:56
  I can WhatsApp you in Boulder, Colorado from here in Germany and the fact that
• 1:40:01
  someone else can WhatsApp me while I'm talking to you, that sets us free
• 1:40:04
  because yes, we can live in parallel realities, which we always have anyway,
• 1:40:07
  but we can do those through our devices.
• 1:40:09
  We can have our livelihoods through our devices and we can
• 1:40:11
  be creative through our devices.
• 1:40:13
  But I think only if we also keep one of our feet firmly in nature,
• 1:40:21
  will it, will it help us thrive and not just cause us pain?
• 1:40:26
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, you know, I feel completely with you on that note.
• 1:40:30
  Not everybody feels that way, but part of it comes down to presence.
• 1:40:36
  Like, how present, like back to DRAMDAS, be here now, how present what's our
• 1:40:42
  capacity to actually be present?
• 1:40:44
  Rupert Isaacson: And I think it's, it's more complex than it's often presented.
• 1:40:48
  So, for example you've had this experience, when you've been in, you know,
• 1:40:52
  the company of a really senior shaman,
• 1:40:54
  Ginny Jordan: like
• 1:40:55
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm thinking about, say, ghost from the reindeer people
• 1:40:58
  in Mongolia who healed my son or Besa, who was the healer in the Kalahari
• 1:41:04
  that I was the closest to, they would go in and out of trance parallel.
• 1:41:09
  To being in the quote unquote real world, whereas the younger healers, they
• 1:41:14
  were either in trance or they were not.
• 1:41:16
  And then they would reach this point when they were in the 60s or 70s when they
• 1:41:20
  could simultaneously walk the two paths and literally be kind of like smoking a
• 1:41:23
  cigarette and having a conversation with someone about something very banal while
• 1:41:27
  falling in and out of trance and sort of pulling something out of somebody's spine.
• 1:41:32
  And is that not what we're doing when we're on our devices?
• 1:41:36
  Yeah, well, talking to each other if the intention is with what you
• 1:41:41
  do with that device while you're talking to somebody to bring healing
• 1:41:45
  in some way or that is that not the same process really in a funny way.
• 1:41:49
  Ginny Jordan: No, I, I, I think that's spot on that.
• 1:41:52
  And that's pretty much what I was trying to say that ultimately what happens
• 1:41:56
  in our nightlife besides just crashing and like, just wanting to check out.
• 1:42:00
  It's a, you know, it's kind of a, another fertile realm of existence.
• 1:42:04
  They can all be singing to each other, you know, and it
• 1:42:07
  all can happen simultaneously.
• 1:42:08
  I mean, now we're getting kind of out there, but I
• 1:42:11
  absolutely know it's possible.
• 1:42:13
  The, the Tibetans have, have researched that for thousands of
• 1:42:16
  years, you know, they call it dream yoga where you actually can wake up
• 1:42:20
  fully is beyond even lucid dreaming.
• 1:42:23
  You can wake up fully in Simon's death practice ultimately, because you're waking
• 1:42:29
  up fully inside of your night experience and you're wide awake, but you're asleep.
• 1:42:34
  And like, how do you do this simultaneously?
• 1:42:36
  And like you just said, where it's.
• 1:42:38
  It's not a, you know, it's not a question of, Oh, I'm not present
• 1:42:42
  or I have to be here or here.
• 1:42:43
  It's this black and white thing that we have gotten ourselves into.
• 1:42:46
  It, it has a weaving.
• 1:42:48
  We just don't know how to live it.
• 1:42:51
  Rupert Isaacson: You've mentioned at the beginning while we were
• 1:42:54
  chatting before this began about another project called Chasing Time.
• 1:42:57
  What's that about?
• 1:43:00
  Ginny Jordan: Well, that's really the, the literal finale of taking these.
• 1:43:05
  Cameras down all over the world and the last cameras, the time lapse
• 1:43:10
  that were part of chasing ice.
• 1:43:13
  So chasing time is really a much shorter version.
• 1:43:16
  It's maybe a 45 minute film piece on Jim.
• 1:43:20
  They log the photographer going back to take down the last, very last
• 1:43:25
  camera, which happens to be in Iceland.
• 1:43:28
  And so it's full of incredible images.
• 1:43:31
  I mean, gorgeous.
• 1:43:32
  Portraits of glaciers that just make you fall in love in part,
• 1:43:36
  knowing that we're not going to see those images and X number of years.
• 1:43:39
  There's going to be no glacier left.
• 1:43:42
  No snow left to be looking at.
• 1:43:44
  And it's also the story.
• 1:43:45
  So it's visually gorgeous and kind of a love affair.
• 1:43:49
  And it's also the story of taking down the last camera.
• 1:43:53
  And handing it over to in this case, the, the government got involved in
• 1:44:00
  this project and decided they wanted to launch a more citizen science
• 1:44:05
  project as the tail of this project into the future, which would be.
• 1:44:10
  People, citizens going to the same spots where Jim took the, you
• 1:44:14
  know, it's a very specific spot.
• 1:44:15
  You know, you don't change your spot.
• 1:44:17
  You're going to do time lapse.
• 1:44:18
  It's got to be exact exact.
• 1:44:20
  So the exact same spot, you know, with these brass kind of stands where have
• 1:44:25
  a little mount on them where you can mount your iPhone and you, me, just
• 1:44:29
  regular citizens can take a picture.
• 1:44:32
  And that picture will go into a database of images.
• 1:44:36
  And so their child, you know, 20 years from now can take the same picture
• 1:44:41
  in the same spot and be comparing to how much retreat there's been.
• 1:44:46
  And the angle for for the Icelandic people is they love their glaciers.
• 1:44:50
  They love them.
• 1:44:52
  It's a big part of their, of their culture.
• 1:44:54
  It's also a huge part of tourism, you know, the amount of diversity
• 1:44:58
  in that, if you've ever been to Iceland, it's so diverse.
• 1:45:00
  It's kind of astounding.
• 1:45:02
  And so, you know, in the film you see, you know, hundreds and hundreds of, of people
• 1:45:08
  that live in Iceland engaged in this project from their love of the glaciers
• 1:45:13
  and their love of wanting to document.
• 1:45:15
  Their loss, so it's kind of an active science project, but it's also a
• 1:45:20
  grieving project and a way of engaging their grief that these things are
• 1:45:25
  going and one day there's children.
• 1:45:28
  Children are not going to see any of the landscape they
• 1:45:30
  have, which is so impressive.
• 1:45:35
  So what a beautiful thing to go from an individual.
• 1:45:38
  It's not about Jim Balog anymore.
• 1:45:40
  It's about the people participating and documenting the change.
• 1:45:45
  In the world, and that's real time, real life engaging and these projects
• 1:45:51
  are actually, as you probably know, these citizens scientists projects are
• 1:45:55
  sprouting up all over the world where people are engaged in observing that.
• 1:46:01
  Oh, my God, that species of birds didn't come back this year and they
• 1:46:06
  have a way to send that data in and participate in telling the story.
• 1:46:11
  of this changing planet.
• 1:46:12
  So it's a brilliant way to end this extraordinary effort that Jim made.
• 1:46:20
  Rupert Isaacson: I want to bring the conversation in it's, we're going to
• 1:46:24
  sort of head for the home stretch now.
• 1:46:25
  By the way listeners tend to break these things up into segments to listen to.
• 1:46:34
  But you've got so much that, okay.
• 1:46:37
  So before I just go to the last.
• 1:46:39
  A set of things I wanted to ask you about you, you've got chasing
• 1:46:43
  time, which you're working on.
• 1:46:44
  What have you got another movie up your sleeve?
• 1:46:48
  Ginny Jordan: Well, yeah, there's a wonderful book called braiding
• 1:46:52
  sweetgrass, which is your, if your listeners haven't read, I highly
• 1:46:56
  recommend that's have you read it?
• 1:46:58
  Rupert Isaacson: I can highly recommend it to braiding sweetgrass.
• 1:47:01
  I was given it by a Cheyenne native American woman.
• 1:47:06
  Oh, wow.
• 1:47:07
  Was actually braiding in Yellowstone National Park who braided sweetgrass
• 1:47:12
  for my daughter Freya and braided it into her hair and for my youngest son
• 1:47:16
  Kirian, and she said you guys must read this book and we didn't and so
• 1:47:22
  we read it aloud to our children.
• 1:47:24
  For those, last year, for those who don't know what braiding
• 1:47:27
  sweetgrass is, please Ginny, tell us.
• 1:47:30
  Ginny Jordan: Well, it's the woman who wrote is called Robin wall Kimmer.
• 1:47:34
  Is she an actually, is she a botanist?
• 1:47:36
  I'm trying to remember her actually.
• 1:47:37
  I mean, she's, she's got, you know, very strong, serious science background.
• 1:47:42
  But indigenous And it's a really hard book to describe how she's engaging us in,
• 1:47:49
  um, the ingredients of I'm going to put this in air quotes, an indigenous way of
• 1:47:55
  living where we're in right relationship to all species and all beings.
• 1:48:01
  And she's a masterful storyteller, so she'll tell you the whole story of sweet
• 1:48:07
  grass and it's you know, before you know it, you're smelling it and then
• 1:48:11
  you really kind of want to plant it.
• 1:48:12
  And I've learned how to make sweet grass baskets
• 1:48:15
  Rupert Isaacson: for those listeners who are, say, driving a car in Berkshire in
• 1:48:19
  England right now, listening to this.
• 1:48:20
  What is sweet grass?
• 1:48:22
  Ginny Jordan: It's just, you know, kind of one of a gazillion thousands of
• 1:48:26
  grasses but it's been used traditionally in native cultures for, you know,
• 1:48:31
  basket making also for smudging.
• 1:48:35
  They often weave it into into braids where you can, you know, Light it and
• 1:48:43
  it creates an, it's an amazing scent.
• 1:48:45
  It's sweetness of sweetness of grass.
• 1:48:47
  If you could just imagine putting your face in really fresh grass, it's so, so
• 1:48:51
  sweet but it's not, you know, we would not look at it and go, that's an amazingly
• 1:48:55
  special grass, you know, it, it kind of grows and kind of not so great conditions.
• 1:49:01
  It sort of doesn't matter, but.
• 1:49:03
  She elevates it to its rightful place.
• 1:49:05
  And what she's trying to say throughout the whole book is
• 1:49:08
  all these species are beings.
• 1:49:10
  They're living beings that have this dynamic expression, you know, in this
• 1:49:15
  case, in the form of plants that are full of all kinds of medicines for us.
• 1:49:20
  And we simply have not learned how to actually have a direct
• 1:49:26
  experience with these beings.
• 1:49:28
  You know, we might use them.
• 1:49:30
  We might.
• 1:49:30
  You know, be interested, but like, actually, you know, she really
• 1:49:34
  takes us through the experience of what it is to actually listen to
• 1:49:38
  a plant and have the plant speak.
• 1:49:41
  That's
• 1:49:44
  Rupert Isaacson: the, I think, for many people, the revelatory part of.
• 1:49:50
  If you like modern day spirituality is that suddenly there's an acceptance,
• 1:49:55
  thanks to you guys from the counterculture 50 years on, there is
• 1:49:59
  now finally an acceptance within the medical and the psychological field
• 1:50:05
  of the use of psychotropic plants.
• 1:50:07
  For the mental health pandemic that we've got, and suddenly you're seeing
• 1:50:11
  magic mushrooms being legalized in just about every state, but whoever would have
• 1:50:16
  thought you'd see that and people using ayahuasca and using, you know, other plant
• 1:50:20
  based medicines, you know, peyote, etc.
• 1:50:23
  I've had some experience with that.
• 1:50:26
  And as you know, listeners, maybe you don't know what the native, what the
• 1:50:31
  indigenous people of all, all those cultures who use these things around
• 1:50:34
  the world say is that, well, we didn't discover the use of these plants.
• 1:50:40
  These plants discovered us and we have a relationship to this plant.
• 1:50:44
  These plants have personalities and speak to us through our consciousness
• 1:50:49
  and our shamanic processes.
• 1:50:50
  And it's, it wasn't a system of trial and error.
• 1:50:52
  Let's try this thing.
• 1:50:53
  Let's try this Not at all.
• 1:50:55
  It's a very different process and I think with what you're doing with braiding
• 1:51:01
  sweetgrass, you seem to be, once again, at the zeitgeist of when this becomes
• 1:51:09
  part of mainstream thought, just before it becomes part of mainstream thought.
• 1:51:12
  You did it with climate change, you did it with ice and coral, you did it with
• 1:51:16
  social media with the social dilemma.
• 1:51:19
  Now you're doing it with plant based medicines in relation to other species.
• 1:51:23
  What is it, Jiddy, that allows you to consistently and continually identify
• 1:51:31
  and tap the zeitgeist of what the human beings need before it hits the
• 1:51:39
  mainstream, to help it hit the mainstream.
• 1:51:41
  What, what, what, where does this quality come from?
• 1:51:44
  You hit it into the ballpark, Every time with your films,
• 1:51:51
  Ginny Jordan: I wish I could answer that people have reflected that to me.
• 1:51:54
  Like, well, how are you doing this?
• 1:51:56
  Like, you're, you've got a good picker.
• 1:51:57
  You know, you can I, I think it's a bit mysterious.
• 1:52:01
  I think it's as simple as I, I have good instincts when I met you and you just
• 1:52:08
  somewhat casually said to me, well, I have this idea about this book and I
• 1:52:13
  have this idea about taking Rowan out, you know, out, you know, given some
• 1:52:19
  of your, your upbringing and history and connection to, to shamans and to
• 1:52:24
  healers and it was forming for you.
• 1:52:26
  And there was just no question in my mind, no question.
• 1:52:30
  And it had to do with the quality of your heart.
• 1:52:33
  It wasn't just that you're actually happened to be brilliant and you actually
• 1:52:38
  have some of the most can do motivational you know, capacities I've ever met.
• 1:52:43
  It was actually the quality of your heart.
• 1:52:46
  And I think I can tell that.
• 1:52:49
  It's like Robin Wall Kimmer in writing this book, you, you feel, you know,
• 1:52:55
  she's not on a rampage or a campaign to convince anybody of anything.
• 1:52:59
  She's telling the story through her own heart, which tends to soften
• 1:53:03
  us and open us and, and generate something that makes it more acceptable
• 1:53:10
  to have things be in the mystery.
• 1:53:12
  And I would say my instincts.
• 1:53:15
  Are, are, have been developed over time to, you know, meeting Jim Bailong,
• 1:53:21
  you know, when I first met him and he told me about this crazy idea he
• 1:53:25
  had, it was probably not going to work to put these cameras out and
• 1:53:29
  they didn't work and people who watch the movie will know that like he, he
• 1:53:34
  was determined, but they all fail.
• 1:53:35
  These cameras fail because he was first time I've ever been designed,
• 1:53:39
  but you could feel I, and I feel it to this day when I'm with him,
• 1:53:44
  it's the quality of his heart.
• 1:53:46
  And that he had that in combination with tremendous sense of vision and will that
• 1:53:53
  I just feel like that's those are the two kind of like, if there's a secret sauce
• 1:53:59
  or the secret ingredients, I think when I sense those coming together, it, it,
• 1:54:04
  it, you know, either in my being or in other people's beings that really are here
• 1:54:09
  doing what they meant to be doing here.
• 1:54:12
  It's worth taking a risk and saying, Oh, I support that
• 1:54:18
  Rupert Isaacson: mentor a moment here.
• 1:54:19
  Please, how can we, those listening, all of us, how can we learn to develop
• 1:54:31
  that muscle to develop that skill of correctly discerning the quality
• 1:54:38
  of the human heart in front of us?
• 1:54:43
  As we get involved with other people, what, what advice or
• 1:54:48
  tips would you give to people?
• 1:54:53
  Ginny Jordan: Well, even doing what, even asking the question you're
• 1:54:57
  asking is the first question to ask.
• 1:55:00
  Right.
• 1:55:00
  We tend to skip over that question.
• 1:55:02
  So if I'm meeting somebody who's all on fire about a project or they're an
• 1:55:06
  entrepreneur or whatever, to stop long enough, not just to go on the ride of
• 1:55:12
  the exhilaration possibility, but what's the quality of this human's heart.
• 1:55:18
  It, I don't mean that they have to be all kind of gushy and lovey or it, it
• 1:55:23
  doesn't but you, but you have to sense where this whole passion is rooted.
• 1:55:28
  Right.
• 1:55:30
  And, you know, there are a lot of initiatives that don't make it, and
• 1:55:36
  I'm pretty convinced part is that that's the carrier that's bigger
• 1:55:40
  than just even our will force and our powers of manifestation.
• 1:55:44
  It's the human heart that, that actually loves, knows what it
• 1:55:48
  loves and loves what it loves.
• 1:55:51
  And that's bigger than just that person.
• 1:55:54
  And if that hasn't been cultivated or developed or not known to that
• 1:55:58
  person, you know, they might get there.
• 1:56:00
  Of course, trial and error will get us there.
• 1:56:03
  Because, I mean, this is frigging hard work.
• 1:56:07
  It's not a person out there listening that doesn't know that life is hard work.
• 1:56:10
  Now, anything we want to achieve or accomplish requires an
• 1:56:15
  incredible amount of effort.
• 1:56:18
  So where that effort is coming from is, you know, maybe somebody
• 1:56:22
  could say psychologically, this is the true integration of the
• 1:56:25
  masculine and feminine, right?
• 1:56:28
  Where there's this.
• 1:56:29
  You know, this beautiful concert going on of, of deep, deep love for this existence.
• 1:56:36
  Whether we get to save it or not, I don't know.
• 1:56:39
  Right.
• 1:56:39
  But if that heart isn't part of the driver and that has a natural softness
• 1:56:45
  to it and openness, willingness to learn as we go, willingness to listen,
• 1:56:50
  willingness to fail willingness to hurt.
• 1:56:54
  To grieve, to be vulnerable.
• 1:56:57
  I, I just see that as just a kind of a critical.
• 1:57:00
  So I think the answer to your question is, you know, ask the question.
• 1:57:05
  Rupert Isaacson: That's a brilliant answer.
• 1:57:07
  Ginny Jordan: Ask the question.
• 1:57:08
  Rupert Isaacson: Ask the question.
• 1:57:09
  What is the quality of this person's heart?
• 1:57:11
  Ginny Jordan: And you may not know, or you may be, may be clueless,
• 1:57:14
  but it's, it's a worthy question.
• 1:57:16
  But at
• 1:57:16
  Rupert Isaacson: least it brings it into conversation, right?
• 1:57:18
  Ginny Jordan: Brings it into your consciousness.
• 1:57:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:57:20
  I'm
• 1:57:21
  Ginny Jordan: just trying to see where they're really, where they're
• 1:57:23
  really living in their being.
• 1:57:27
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay, now the final thing.
• 1:57:32
  You're also an author, and I know you don't like this book
• 1:57:36
  that you wrote much, or at least you've told me that but I like it.
• 1:57:41
  I like it for its humor, and it's also just really well written,
• 1:57:45
  and it's also mind blowing.
• 1:57:47
  And this book is called Clear Cut.
• 1:57:50
  It's by Ginny Jordan, the person you're listening to.
• 1:57:53
  And Ginny, you talked about this revelation coming to you through
• 1:58:02
  your experience with cancer.
• 1:58:04
  And you very modestly talked about it as if that was the only experience
• 1:58:10
  with it you've had, let alone Meniere's disease, let alone various other things.
• 1:58:18
  And before Ginny, I want you to talk us through all the cancers you've
• 1:58:23
  been through, and all the stuff you've been through, and all the
• 1:58:26
  parts of you that have been cut.
• 1:58:30
  Before we go there, though, I want you listeners, you can't see what I'm seeing.
• 1:58:35
  So I'm looking at Ginny on the zoom screen.
• 1:58:39
  Ginny is one of the radiantly beautiful women I know, human beings,
• 1:58:45
  and Yes, you're 70 years old, and you don't look a day over 50, and
• 1:58:52
  you are the sort of person who when we see you walking down the street,
• 1:58:56
  you look the picture of health.
• 1:59:00
  And yet, every single time I make contact with you, particularly when
• 1:59:04
  we haven't spoken for a year or two, which happens, there's always, you've
• 1:59:09
  always just come back from death's door.
• 1:59:11
  Can you, and this book Clearcut tells some of those stories, and What
• 1:59:18
  you've learned as you've lost parts of yourself, can you just briefly
• 1:59:21
  tell us what you've gone through with sickness and loss of your body?
• 1:59:27
  And then from there, I want to go into something we can learn from this.
• 1:59:32
  So can you just please give us that rundown?
• 1:59:36
  Ginny Jordan: Well, as you said, it's been an enormous theme,
• 1:59:40
  one of the braids on my braid.
• 1:59:44
  So, I did not know at the time when I was 35, as I mentioned that I had what's
• 1:59:50
  called the BRAC2 gene, which is a, a genetic propensity for breast cancer
• 1:59:56
  that actually I got from my father.
• 1:59:58
  Yeah.
• 2:00:00
  You know, in the early days, we didn't have the test for that.
• 2:00:02
  So then I knew that.
• 2:00:04
  So, I, I got breast cancer.
• 2:00:06
  So I had breast cancer on the right side.
• 2:00:08
  Then I, 15 years later, got breast cancer on the other side.
• 2:00:12
  And in between, I suffered a really horrific.
• 2:00:15
  Another genetic disease that my mother and grandmother both had called Meniere's
• 2:00:19
  disease, which is an inner ear disorder where you're rendered kind of helpless
• 2:00:24
  with these attacks of violent vertigo.
• 2:00:27
  I mean, so bad that, you know, I'd be bedridden for days.
• 2:00:30
  And there were a number of years where I couldn't drive a car, which
• 2:00:33
  was an enormous loss in terms of.
• 2:00:36
  Child rearing and being a mom and not being reliable and let
• 2:00:40
  alone it being a pretty terrifying disease and experience to be, you
• 2:00:45
  know, on the floor with the room.
• 2:00:47
  Like, you just had had.
• 2:00:48
  You know, 20 pints of beer kind of experience, I mean, really violent and
• 2:00:53
  I ended up having a treatment for that.
• 2:00:55
  That I tried every alternative you can imagine.
• 2:00:58
  And that was unsuccessful that, you know, really did the trick so I'm extremely
• 2:01:04
  grateful, but then I lost my hearing on that side, which was probably gonna,
• 2:01:08
  you know, they predicted that would happen, but I was making a bid for life
• 2:01:12
  that I could function and have a life.
• 2:01:15
  So we could chalk that up to a loss of not being able to hear.
• 2:01:19
  And of course, you know, going through breast surgeries and losing
• 2:01:22
  breasts is an enormous, enormous loss.
• 2:01:24
  I mean, really unspeakable.
• 2:01:27
  To a woman that's you know, you got to go somewhere really much
• 2:01:30
  deeper than our culture to feel what makes, makes us feminine beings.
• 2:01:37
  And what else hand surgery, another genetic problem that my father had
• 2:01:42
  a being a, being a true Viking.
• 2:01:45
  The only people who get this are Vikings.
• 2:01:48
  It's a, it's a hand is a thing called do patrons contracture where your
• 2:01:52
  fingers get scar tissue and you can't.
• 2:01:55
  You can't you, you know, your fingers start getting pulled down and I had two
• 2:01:59
  very unsuccessful surgeries with that.
• 2:02:02
  So I'm kind of left with really kind of the use really of just 1
• 2:02:05
  hand, so I can use my other hand.
• 2:02:07
  It's, it's it's a loss.
• 2:02:09
  Of course.
• 2:02:10
  I'm trying to think what else?
• 2:02:12
  Oh, sort of another ongoing issue recently, you know, just I was telling
• 2:02:16
  Rupert just before we started that.
• 2:02:18
  I have a hard time pronouncing sometimes because my lip is all numb because I
• 2:02:22
  had suddenly a, a melanoma emerge on my lip last summer with out of nowhere and
• 2:02:28
  boom, you were having major surgery.
• 2:02:30
  That was you know, pretty traumatic as well as right on top of the
• 2:02:35
  heels of a hysterectomy, which you know, went actually brilliantly
• 2:02:41
  and kind of coordinated at the same time that I lost my mom.
• 2:02:44
  But there was a.
• 2:02:46
  Interesting that had an interesting translation is not a loss,
• 2:02:50
  which was kind of surprising.
• 2:02:53
  So, there's been a lot and you know, from 1 point of view, it's kind of a
• 2:02:58
  dramatic story constantly, in so many ways over the years, since I was 35 I
• 2:03:04
  don't take my body for granted and sort of this constant story of, of remaking
• 2:03:09
  myself, you know, being taken down and, you know, it's a very mythic, right?
• 2:03:14
  Taken down into a kind of darkness and then having to raise myself back
• 2:03:18
  up and then being taken down again, you know, it's a bit of a job story
• 2:03:22
  and it's in a big drama sense for job.
• 2:03:25
  It was really dramatic.
• 2:03:26
  So it's been a powerful teacher for me a powerful you know, path of, of sort of
• 2:03:35
  dissolution and renewal and resurrection.
• 2:03:40
  And also I has absolutely forced me as it does so many people who go through things
• 2:03:46
  right through the body to really show up in the preciousness of this moment.
• 2:03:53
  You know, I've almost died a few times and it's like, I, this is not abstract to me.
• 2:03:58
  At all, and there's a power in living, you know, waking up every
• 2:04:02
  morning and saying, thank you.
• 2:04:05
  Oh, my God, I got another day.
• 2:04:07
  Thank you.
• 2:04:08
  So, less has it made me paranoid and more insanely, insanely grateful.
• 2:04:14
  Just so grateful and, you know, why I'm still here is kind of in the
• 2:04:18
  mystery, but I'm, I'm, I'm on my knees.
• 2:04:22
  And in gratitude, so, you know, losses, we all know, because we, there's so
• 2:04:27
  many forms of loss, whether it's through the body, or we lost our loved one.
• 2:04:32
  You know, I lost 1 of my best friends this summer.
• 2:04:34
  I mean, this winter and you know, they're just always an opportunity
• 2:04:38
  through that pain to find a door that expands us even further access
• 2:04:44
  to reach even deeper into life.
• 2:04:47
  And be inside a mystery that's really beyond our understanding as well.
• 2:04:54
  Rupert Isaacson: And through all this listeners despite having gone on to
• 2:04:57
  these large stages of film and the non profit work, having, well, actually for
• 2:05:05
  profit work, philanthropically, so with the street business school and beat for
• 2:05:10
  life and all of this stuff projecting you onto these, these sort of celeb
• 2:05:14
  level stages, you've continued to also just run a therapy practice with people.
• 2:05:20
  I've seen you go literally through fire and flood.
• 2:05:22
  So, Jenny lives in a very beautiful river valley.
• 2:05:25
  In Colorado which sometimes flash floods and when I first met you, you had built
• 2:05:33
  a stone circle and a cave in which you were bringing people back into, you know,
• 2:05:38
  doing your therapy and they're brilliant.
• 2:05:39
  And then, of course, this massive flood came in and washed it all away.
• 2:05:42
  And then there's been fire.
• 2:05:44
  And, but there's also been the renewal of that canyon that you live by.
• 2:05:50
  And again, for those of you who don't, well, of course you don't know, but
• 2:05:52
  bears walk past Ginny's window many mornings and sit in trees and look at her.
• 2:05:58
  And nature comes down this riparian corridor from the Rocky Mountains
• 2:06:02
  into the plains routinely.
• 2:06:03
  Whenever I've stayed at your house, Ginny's been lucky enough to do that.
• 2:06:07
  The wildlife has always been, the highlights.
• 2:06:09
  You just sort of sit by.
• 2:06:11
  In your front porch, you sort of watch these things come by.
• 2:06:15
  you keep this sort of humble therapy service going.
• 2:06:19
  What's next for you?
• 2:06:22
  What, what intrigues you to do next?
• 2:06:24
  What, what's your next offering?
• 2:06:26
  What can we, I know we're going to be looking out for Braiding Sweetgrass.
• 2:06:30
  But what's Ginny up to?
• 2:06:32
  Ginny Jordan: It's a great question, and when I turned 70, I really
• 2:06:35
  started to ask that, you know, it's like, you know, is the what's next an
• 2:06:40
  actual initiative project creation?
• 2:06:44
  Is it something simpler, you know, is it, you know, I, I'm always
• 2:06:49
  sort of, as I said, very early on, it's a call and response life.
• 2:06:52
  So I'm listening, I'm listening and hoping, inviting any
• 2:06:57
  particular synchronicity or.
• 2:07:00
  Or, you know, how it is when we suddenly we meet something and something lights up.
• 2:07:04
  I heard about something 2 days ago that can't quite tell yet because
• 2:07:08
  I'm not allowed to allowed to, but if it were to manifest, it
• 2:07:12
  would be an amazing co creation.
• 2:07:15
  But I'm just, you know, really in a deep.
• 2:07:17
  Moment of pause and, and quietude tending the hearse, so to speak,
• 2:07:22
  tending you know, a number of souls that I'm deeply invested in, in their,
• 2:07:28
  their emergence and their growth.
• 2:07:31
  And it's, this doesn't have a grand scale nor does it need to be.
• 2:07:35
  So it more than ever at this age and stage in life, when you're kind of
• 2:07:40
  in the third act how choicefulness and right placement becomes.
• 2:07:46
  Very important.
• 2:07:48
  What do you mean by
• 2:07:48
  Rupert Isaacson: right placement?
• 2:07:51
  Ginny Jordan: Placing myself in the right place for the right reason.
• 2:07:53
  It's like the expense of energy, you know, when you're 20, you know, you,
• 2:07:56
  you know, your bandwidth is just a whole lot wider, but now how do I
• 2:08:00
  place the right, my, you know, with the right particular talents and gifts
• 2:08:05
  that I have likely it'll join others.
• 2:08:07
  Cause that's my favorite thing to do.
• 2:08:09
  I'm not, you know, the tip of the arrow usually it's more, it's more
• 2:08:14
  of a co created field, which I love.
• 2:08:17
  It's more stimulating for me.
• 2:08:19
  But, you know, placing myself in the right moment for the
• 2:08:22
  right reason in the right place.
• 2:08:23
  I don't mean that.
• 2:08:24
  So, like, I have to, like, sleep over it, but it, it's got to
• 2:08:28
  feel aligned and more than ever.
• 2:08:30
  I feel that it's like.
• 2:08:33
  Time is being measured now.
• 2:08:35
  And like, really, how do you want to spend your time in what way I'm super,
• 2:08:40
  super naturally involved, partly because I tend to a big piece of land.
• 2:08:44
  I live on 35 acres.
• 2:08:47
  I grow a lot of my own food now.
• 2:08:48
  I'm, I'm really fascinated with soil and the movement of soil and
• 2:08:55
  regenerative farming, and I'm very passionate about next generation.
• 2:09:00
  You know, I mean, I feel completely in service to young people.
• 2:09:02
  And their dreams and their visions and how I can serve and support them and
• 2:09:06
  elevate them and mirror, mirror them.
• 2:09:10
  You know, I less have my shingle out as like, well, I'm some wise elder, you know,
• 2:09:13
  that can, it's, I learned just as much.
• 2:09:16
  I mean, it's a beautiful flow and I'm happy to offer my gifts and I love
• 2:09:21
  receiving the passion and the vision of this next generation and really want
• 2:09:27
  to be in, you know, I want to live.
• 2:09:29
  Multi generationally, and I do, there are different people live on
• 2:09:33
  my land that are different ages.
• 2:09:35
  And that's super important to me.
• 2:09:37
  Rupert Isaacson: So community regenerative farming engagement land
• 2:09:41
  engagement with the next generation.
• 2:09:44
  Ginny Jordan: And some need for something that I feel is actually going to take
• 2:09:48
  me further than than my land and boulder in those beans right in front of me.
• 2:09:53
  I can feel that.
• 2:09:54
  I just don't know yet.
• 2:09:55
  I'll, I'll talk to you in a year room.
• 2:09:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:09:59
  Ginny Jordan: Hopefully before then.
• 2:10:01
  Rupert Isaacson: Hopefully, yeah, hopefully we'll actually make it
• 2:10:03
  face to face because I tried last year and you were having in hospital
• 2:10:07
  with that last thing of yours.
• 2:10:10
  There we go.
• 2:10:10
  But now you sit in front of me radiant with good health,
• 2:10:15
  which for which I'm grateful.
• 2:10:17
  Ginny Jordan: Yes, me too.
• 2:10:20
  Rupert Isaacson: What would be your closing word of advice for
• 2:10:24
  somebody who is listening to this?
• 2:10:27
  And feeling overwhelmed by the events of the time Israel,
• 2:10:33
  Ukraine, climate all of it.
• 2:10:36
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
• 2:10:39
  Rupert Isaacson: What's your message of hope?
• 2:10:41
  Ginny Jordan: About that.
• 2:10:43
  Yeah, I'm asking that of myself a lot, too, because I'm being a sensitive being.
• 2:10:48
  I'm, you know, the moment I just heard the recent news with Iran, it's
• 2:10:52
  just I didn't know what to do, but go down and build a fire, you know, and
• 2:10:57
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
• 2:10:57
  Ginny Jordan: you know, yeah, I think for those that feel called and feel it's
• 2:11:02
  part of their path, part of the perhaps quest of these times is how can I grow
• 2:11:08
  myself to be the candle in the hurricane?
• 2:11:14
  Wind of the planet these days, how can I grow myself to be steady enough,
• 2:11:20
  take care of my own nervous system, be responsible for my own nervous system,
• 2:11:24
  because by definition, just taking a breath is stressful on the planet.
• 2:11:28
  You know, if we really want to analyze what we're breathing, right, what kind
• 2:11:32
  of air we have, what we're drinking, you know, just everywhere you, you know, all
• 2:11:36
  layers of life, it's just by definition.
• 2:11:39
  And so no shame about.
• 2:11:42
  Being in stress, because it is uncertainty is stressful, but I, I
• 2:11:47
  feel like our job and our quest is perhaps guides and future leaders.
• 2:11:53
  And however, we want to shape our lives.
• 2:11:55
  Can we grow that?
• 2:11:58
  You know, determination and strength of that light to be steady and and,
• 2:12:05
  and be that not by what we do by how we are by the emanation of our
• 2:12:10
  being back to the quality of our heart and our capacity to feel joy.
• 2:12:17
  even in spite of all of this.
• 2:12:19
  That's a bright light that people need.
• 2:12:22
  Rupert Isaacson: It's the first step to simply ask the question,
• 2:12:24
  how can I feel joy in these times?
• 2:12:27
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
• 2:12:27
  And, and real joy and not an unapologetically joyful, unapologetically,
• 2:12:35
  because many people now are apologizing because whoops, how can I have that
• 2:12:39
  when, you know, Gazans are not, you know, the palace there, they have no food.
• 2:12:46
  It was like, how do you put all these paradoxes?
• 2:12:49
  Together, it's, it's an impossible task.
• 2:12:52
  And so what is it, you know, you know, you have to some in a somewhere assume
• 2:12:59
  that the highest, the highest aspect of all beans want us, you know, so
• 2:13:03
  we can be joyful while you be joyful.
• 2:13:06
  Rupert Isaacson: To be joy.
• 2:13:08
  Ginny Jordan: In this moment, we're not starving, okay, we might, you
• 2:13:12
  know, we might just swing around who knows, you know, climate
• 2:13:15
  change hit me hard for three years.
• 2:13:18
  I lost pretty much every tree on my land.
• 2:13:21
  I mean, it was like, okay.
• 2:13:22
  And then I was 1 of those people.
• 2:13:24
  I mean, we're, we're going to rotate around, but be joyful.
• 2:13:28
  And, you know, what does that mean?
• 2:13:30
  What brings you joy?
• 2:13:31
  What really, really brings you joy and it could be something so crazy.
• 2:13:35
  Like I love, I really love playing games, board games.
• 2:13:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:13:40
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
• 2:13:41
  Okay.
• 2:13:42
  That's what I love.
• 2:13:43
  You better play some board games, Jenny.
• 2:13:45
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:13:46
  Ginny Jordan: Right.
• 2:13:47
  Rupert Isaacson: I would like to play a board game with you next time I see you.
• 2:13:49
  Ginny Jordan: Hey, good.
• 2:13:50
  I'll teach you some cool ones.
• 2:13:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:13:52
  I'm on.
• 2:13:54
  . Yes.
• 2:13:55
  Joy.
• 2:13:55
  To be Joy.
• 2:13:57
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
• 2:13:57
  To be joy.
• 2:13:58
  To be joy.
• 2:13:58
  Yeah.
• 2:13:59
  And it can take lots of shapes.
• 2:14:00
  I mean, it's not all like whoopee, you know, but it's, it's a
• 2:14:03
  quality where you keep your light on, is what I'm trying to say.
• 2:14:08
  You keep, you keep yourself lit and whatever, whatever ingredients you need to
• 2:14:12
  keep that yourself lit, that that serves you and it serves everyone around you.
• 2:14:18
  'cause they can feel.
• 2:14:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, because we all know that if someone else is
• 2:14:22
  not shining the candle and we can't see any light, then we despair.
• 2:14:27
  We're so grateful when someone is shining the candle.
• 2:14:30
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah.
• 2:14:31
  Even if it's subtle it's and again, you can't mock it up.
• 2:14:34
  It's not a script.
• 2:14:36
  It's an arrival It's a real arrival
• 2:14:40
  Rupert Isaacson: in the mentorship work in the therapy work you do.
• 2:14:42
  I know you're a very private person so you don't necessarily have to give out
• 2:14:45
  a a Contact or anything like that, but I'm sure people would like to benefit
• 2:14:52
  from reach out, learn more, read more.
• 2:14:55
  Are there any resources that you've got that people could go to?
• 2:15:00
  Ginny Jordan: Yeah, they're welcome to email me.
• 2:15:01
  They may not get a long one back because I can't, I can't be behind a device for
• 2:15:06
  too long, but I love hearing from people.
• 2:15:09
  And if, if everybody's good with just not necessarily,
• 2:15:13
  you know, three page response.
• 2:15:16
  I'm happy to give
• 2:15:17
  Rupert Isaacson: people if people have a question that they would
• 2:15:19
  like to ask you in a bit of
• 2:15:21
  Ginny Jordan: that'd be the best way, but
• 2:15:24
  Rupert Isaacson: just not be attached to you sending it back and perhaps
• 2:15:28
  you perhaps you prefer them not to send you a 10 page epistle.
• 2:15:31
  As well that take, that glues you to the screen.
• 2:15:34
  You have to read
• 2:15:35
  Ginny Jordan: prob probably Yep.
• 2:15:36
  But to be
• 2:15:38
  Rupert Isaacson: me to you.
• 2:15:39
  Ginny Jordan: But I love, I love to respond.
• 2:15:41
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 2:15:41
  Ginny Jordan: Because, but how can
• 2:15:43
  Rupert Isaacson: people reach you that,
• 2:15:44
  Ginny Jordan: that's the cycle of life call and response.
• 2:15:47
  So it's gi, G-I-N-N-Y-G-I-Y,
• 2:15:52
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
• 2:15:53
  Ginny Jordan: J-O-R-D-A-N.
• 2:15:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Jordan.
• 2:15:56
  J-O-R-D-A-N.
• 2:15:57
  One word.
• 2:15:58
  Ginny Jordan: 53, yep,
• 2:16:00
  Rupert Isaacson: 53,
• 2:16:01
  Ginny Jordan: at gmail.
• 2:16:02
  com,
• 2:16:03
  Rupert Isaacson: at gmail.
• 2:16:03
  com, all one word lowercase, Ginny Jordan, 53,
• 2:16:09
  Ginny Jordan: at
• 2:16:09
  Rupert Isaacson: gmail.
• 2:16:10
  com.
• 2:16:11
  Ginny Jordan: That's a dead giveaway when I was born.
• 2:16:16
  Rupert Isaacson: Well, it must have been a good year.
• 2:16:17
  It
• 2:16:18
  Ginny Jordan: was.
• 2:16:20
  Rupert Isaacson: Ginny, thank you.
• 2:16:22
  Ginny Jordan: Thank you.
• 2:16:23
  That was super fun.
• 2:16:25
  Rupert Isaacson: I'm grateful.
• 2:16:26
  I'm grateful to know you.
• 2:16:27
  I'm grateful for the work that you do.
• 2:16:29
  I'm grateful you're in the world.
• 2:16:32
  I'm grateful you're my friend.
• 2:16:34
  I'm grateful.
• 2:16:36
  Thank you.
• 2:16:38
  Ginny Jordan: Thank you.
• 2:16:40
  So, so sweet to connect again.
• 2:16:42
  Let's do it soon.
• 2:16:45
  Rupert Isaacson: All right.
• 2:16:46
  I'm going to press the red button.
• 2:16:47
  Much love.
• 2:16:48
  Much, much love to you.
• 2:16:51
  Thank you for joining us.
• 2:16:52
  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
• 2:16:54
  Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online
• 2:16:59
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• 2:17:05
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• 2:17:09
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• 2:17:12
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• 2:17:16
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• 2:17:19
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• 2:17:26
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• 2:17:30
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• 2:17:32
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