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A Conservative Journalist’s Journey from Harvard to The Boston Globe with Carine Hajjar · Liberty + Leadership

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast, a conversation with T-FAS alumni, faculty and friends who are making an impact.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: Today, I'm your host, Roger Rehm, To kick off season three.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: I'm very excited to welcome Karin Hajjar.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Karin is an opinion and editorial writer at the Boston Globe, with a broad range of expertise spanning from national security to national elections.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Previously, she worked at Nash Review, covering higher education and the Vienna nuclear negotiations with Iran.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: She is also a proud T-FAS alumna.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: She was the recipient of our 2022 Joseph Rago Memorial Fellowship for Excellence in Journalism, working at the opinion section of the Wall Street Journal.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Karin, I look forward to talking with you about your view of journalism today and how your experience with T-FAS helped you in your career.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Well, it's our pleasure and a wonderful way to start out season three.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I met you when you interviewed for the Rago Fellowship.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: You had graduated just prior to that, a year earlier, from Harvard, where you studied government and economics.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I think you chaired the Harvard Kennedy School Institute of Politics Fellows.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: You were founding leader of the conservative coalition, but you also got your journalism feet wet as a member of Harvard's Crimson's editorial board.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Why do you decide to try journalism when you're at Harvard?
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: It was always an interest and more of a hobby than anything.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I liked to argue with my peers and getting to sit down and think through what I was going to write seemed to be a better way to do that than necessarily arguing in class or at the lunch table though that did happen a lot but I just really enjoyed thinking through my arguments.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: I had an experience at National Review I believe it was my sophomore summer of college and loved that experience.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: So the opinion journalism side of things, I just loved the back and forth that came with it, the compromise that you needed to find it was just fun.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: You wrote a brilliant opinion column for the Harvard Crimson called I Was At Odds when you were a student there.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Then you talked about the challenges you faced as a conservative at Harvard and the valuable lessons you've learned.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Talk a little about that column and how being a conservative kind of impacted your experience there.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Well, I found it deeply frustrating that what was supposed to be a foremost institution of education that there were just basic questions that I couldn't ask or conversations that people were too scared to have in the classroom.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: And at that time it was around COVID.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: I wrote that column my senior spring semester and I felt like that was the time to leave it all on the table and leave my impact if it would have an impact on the institution, and was just hoping to point out that it's just hard to have conversations in the classroom and it's just difficult to ask questions about race and equality and justice.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: And it wasn't that the whole point of what we were trying to do at Harvard.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I was not yet trying to tear down assumptions made in DEI institutions and anything crazy like that, but just asking the obvious questions like why can't I ask a question in class?
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Why is it socially so costly to have these kinds of conversations?
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: So you felt firsthand this idea we hear about at a lot of universities of students who have to self-censor.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there was a really high social cost and I think that that's sometimes lost in the conversations.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: There's a stereotype about the liberal professor and the communist ties of the institutions and you know all of those jokes that exist around higher education.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: But I think that a real problem is the social pressure that students face being socially rewarded for being more progressive, part of more progressive causes, and I think that people have seen that play out, especially this year In the wake of October 7th.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: There's definitely a line drawn in the sand on where you stand on Israel, for example, but that line exists for so many other issues on campus.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably didn't anticipate that in your professional career so soon after joining the Boston Globe last year, you'd be writing about Harvard again.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and these issues in higher education.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: We saw the recent exit of Harvard's president Claudine Gay.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: You've wrote several columns about what's been happening on campus and they've been excellent columns, but one recently was about the need to reform the DEI policies the diversity, equity and inclusion policies at universities, not just Harvard but elsewhere.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about that?
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: I think the world is seeing the issue here.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: We had been hearing about it.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: It was coming mostly from right-leaning outlets about the problem with free speech on campus, but at the root of it was these DEI institutions and offices that choose favored narratives, favored groups.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: When you're a student, you don't want to come across as hateful.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: If there's inclusivity and this is what inclusivity is you don't want to come across as exclusive.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think people forget a lot of times that these are young adults and they want to learn, but they also want to make friends, they want to be well-liked.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: I think that if you have an institution like Harvard telling you here are winners and losers, here are right and wrong, you want to listen to that and you want to go along with it.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: For people who are forming their opinions and don't come into college knowing that that's not necessarily true, that we all bring opinions to the table that merit to be shared, it has a lot of impact on discourse.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: That was the big issue for me.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: I think that an institution like Harvard can't reform itself, can't break this DEI trap without having open discourse.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: That was the root of it.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: We saw it at the Harvard board, but we also see it in the classrooms to the DEI offices, where people aren't willing to hear opposing viewpoints and say, hey, maybe this ideology doesn't work.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: Maybe this isn't how education and free speech flourish on campus.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Shortly after the horrendous October 7th terrorist attack by Hamas, we saw this outburst of support for Hamas on campuses.
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: We saw at Harvard a letter signed by some 30 organizations blaming Israel for the violence.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: You wrote a column about it then.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I recall it was a great column from the standpoint of you spoke out clearly for free speech and said universities need to protect free speech, even speech that often is disgusting or speech we don't want to hear.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I think you said they're the adults in the room.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: They need to make clear and step in and have a clear signal about what's acceptable.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Can you comment some more on that, as it relates to Harvard or higher education in general?
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: This question always makes me think about the coddling of the American mind, which is one of my favorite books, and the concept of safetyism how institutions want to put the safety of students before everything else, but often that leads into emotional safety.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: What is emotional safety?
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I think for a very long time, or at least in the last couple of decades, universities have ceded more and more control to students in order just not to upset them.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Certainly, students can hold whatever opinion they want, but radical opinions shouldn't steer the narrative on campus.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: I think it's a failure in the moral education of the student, which should be a part of the college experience, for students to be out here pointing fingers that Israel, just days after innocent civilians have been slain there need to be adults in this case, and students go to school to learn.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have their say, they shouldn't be able to speak out, but they should also be taught right and wrong to some extent.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: That again comes back to free speech.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: You find right and wrong through open discourse and testing opinions against each other, and that wasn't happening at Harvard and it's not happening at a lot of universities.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I think your writing on this topic has been brilliant.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: No doubt you'll have more occasions to write columns about higher ed and Harvard.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I want to stay with Harvard for a minute longer, because one of the things that I recall very vividly from your interview for the Rago Fellowship was that you were in the midst at the time of travels in Europe that were the result of the Finley Fellowship that you awarded through the Elliott House at Harvard.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: As I recall, you put together a proposal for a purposeful travel through Europe, focused on Italy and France and probably elsewhere.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Could you talk a little bit about that trip and what it might have done in terms of shaping your experience now, looking back on it?
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: It was a great year.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Actually, I think that this is an example of where institutions like Harvard really do have a lot to offer in terms of moral education if they put the resources there and they put the time there.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: I'm very grateful to the university and to Elliott House for funding this year of travel.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: My proposal was for a year of religious revival.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I had gone to an Ars Line school in high school.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: It was an all girls Catholic school.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I was raised in Melkite Catholic.
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: These were really important parts of my identity, that in a very secular university like Harvard there are things that you don't get to explore as much or take as much time Having that at the center of your education, and so I thought that this fellowship would be a great opportunity to travel Europe.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I called it basically an extended pilgrimage and I visited various monasteries across countries in Western Europe.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: I ended up going everywhere.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: I did a lot of stays and monasteries but a lot of hostile hopping.
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: I think the grand total was 14 countries at the end of it.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: It was such an experience A great confidence builder too to be able to solo navigate all of those experiences even the mundane travel parts of it, but also a really important religious experience getting to be in some of Europe's oldest monasteries.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: Especially, I really loved staying with Benedictine sisters and seeing the purposeful routine of their day and how anything can be devotion to God.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: That part really stuck with me the most.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: There's been not much but a little written about surveys which have been done in the past.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: I know of journalists working journalists.
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Today in the mainstream media Religious observance is very low.
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Very few journalists attend church regularly.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: It no doubt must impact coverage some, especially when it comes to coverage that involves religious issues or religion.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: Do you find that your experience on that trip or your religious beliefs impact your writing in some way?
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Faith can be a really strong check on bias, and I try to be purposeful about the truth of a matter.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: That's what journalists should do.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Certainly journalists, I know, that don't go to church or aren't religious.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: There are many that do this as well.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: But I guess for me personally, I think a lot about what is the truth of this situation.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: How can I convey it in the truest sense.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Being able to pray about those things as well and think about them purposefully in that way, I think it has been really helpful in my career and might also sometimes push me to cover issues that I'm scared to be on the record about, or maybe I don't want to go there.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: My faith sometimes kind of gives me the push to say, well, you should cover that this is important and this is wrong and it needs to be uncovered, or this is right and it needs to have some light shined on it.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: So I think in that way it does have an impact.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: When you were at Nash Review as an editorial intern, you covered foreign policy and national security.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: What prompted your interest in those fields?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I've always been interested in those fields.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: They were a big focus of my studies at Harvard.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I took a lot of national security-based classes and worked for Senator Cotton on the hill in my second year of college and was a defense intern there and really love those issues.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Those are kind of my bread and butter issues and I have a lot of family who grew up in unstable parts of the world.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: My mom is from Venezuela and both of my parents' families have roots in Lebanon, so these were just issues that we talked about at the dinner table all the time.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Like Iranian influence, that was something that, from a young age, was something that I heard about in my household a lot.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: My dad's done some advocacy for Middle Eastern Christians and persecuted minority groups in the Middle East, so it was always a passion issue of mine.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: When the Iran deal was going on under this administration those negotiations playing out in Vienna it just struck me as so misguided in terms of the incentives that we were putting on the table.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Iran doesn't really respond to appeasement.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: If you give them an inch, they're going to take a mile, and that's exactly what happened.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Sadly, we had servicemen die recently from a missile strike from Iran and I think that this just all goes to show that if you're going to give them the space to misbehave, they're going to misbehave.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: It's just an issue that I feared would unfold this way and sadly has.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I think it's important that the US has a revival of wanting to show strength in the Middle East, wanting to show strength elsewhere.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: I don't think that strength necessarily leads to conflict.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: I think it prevents it, and that's missing from our foreign policy right now.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: You're writing at Nash Review and Harvard, crimson and elsewhere, impressed us, impressed the Wall Street Journal and the Rago family.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: You rewarded our Joseph Rago fellowship, which is a program for listeners who don't know.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: We will pay the fellowship for a young journalist usually coming out of college to work for nine months in the editorial pages of the Wall Street Journal.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: You excelled there.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: You had the opportunity to write a lot.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: You probably wrote as much as any of our fellows did during that fellowship period.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: I know you did a lot of editing, used that and went on to now be at the Boston Globe writing opinion columns there, which is exactly what we want to see from the Rago fellowship.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: We're thrilled that three of our fellows now work full-time in journalism at major publications.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I think some of the others will as well Tell me about that fellowship.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, what was the experience like?
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Did you gain skills at the Wall Street Journal that you found valuable, and what you do now?
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: The first thing I think about funny enough, is split infinitives and just getting to edit next to Matt Hennessey and he's just such a pro and when I write now I literally have his voice in my head if there's ever a split infinitive.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: So I have to thank Matt Hennessey, who works on the feature side of the opinion page.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: It just was such a wonderful educational experience overall and really such a joy to get to be with writers that I had read and looked up to my entire life.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: These were just kitchen table names in my family and I remember saying that in one of the interviews how kind of starstruck I was and how grateful I was just to get to speak with folks from the editorial board and I really loved every aspect of it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: The editing side of things was such a skill builder beyond just the split infinitives, but it was getting to help author take an idea and flush it out in a way that's clear to readers of all knowledge levels really helped me reflect on how I could do that in my writing.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Especially with complex issues like immigration law or national security, it's really important to know how to start from the basics and explain a complex idea from there.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: So, on the editing side of things, you're helping experts in their field communicate a concept that sometimes you yourself, as the editor, don't understand, and helping them get to the place where you understand and can get the reader to understand was a really great intellectual exercise.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Beyond that, getting to be in the editorial meetings and hearing you know my intellectual heroes go back and forth was such a treat, and the editorial board has always been one of my top reads In the morning, and so getting to be a part of those conversations was really huge.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: The reporting was my favorite part.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I loved writing there.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: I loved being edited by James Toronto and Matt Hennessy and having them push me on the issues I was covering and the angles I was taking.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: I got to go to Nevada to cover the midterm elections there in 2022.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And one of my favorite series of pieces was on immigration and how that was unfolding in New York right when that was unfolding.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: So I got to do a lot of street reporting, which is my favorite thing.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: It was just such a fantastic experience, a great skill builder.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I think one characteristic of the Wall Street Journal opinion pages that I really like and it's reflected, I think, in the writing you're doing now at the Boston Globe is these are opinion columns but you do reporting for them.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I much prefer to read an opinion column that isn't just a person's opinion of an issue but where they actually go out and report and give me information I wouldn't otherwise have.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: That's what I think is so great at the Wall Street Journal and I see it in your columns now.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: You've been in New Hampshire leading up to the New Hampshire primary.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Was that a first-time experience for you, covering the primaries in New Hampshire?
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I just was thrown into it and I loved it.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Luckily I had a little bit of election experience.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Going to cover Nevada.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: I'm grateful that the Journal's editorial board sent me there because I got a taste of how cabins work, who you want to talk to, how the events unfold.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: But then New Hampshire is on another level because at the time when I started covering it there were various candidates going around New Hampshire doing the diner circuit and I followed Chris Christie for a while and interviewed Vivek Ramaswamy, saw Nikki Haley various times, went to a Trump rally.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: So I have been up and down from New Hampshire, I think August onward, and then the past couple of weeks leading up to the primary where the final sprint, and I read about candidates all the time.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: I think journalists are really informed about elections generally, but then you get to see how effective communication works.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: When I'm talking to a voter at a diner who is busy with their day job and doesn't really have time to read every detail of somebody's platform.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: What does this Nikki Haley speech?
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: What part of this sticks with them?
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: What part of Trump's platform is negating that and making them think otherwise?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And that was really fascinating to see how information reaches the voter and what certain people believe and don't believe.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I don't want you to talk out of school now, Karine, but at the Boston Globe, what's it like?
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: Are you just free to write about what you want and go where you want?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: Do you pitch it to an editor?
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Do you have meetings of opinion writers to kind of divide up what you're going to cover?
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: How does that work?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's honestly pretty similar to the journal and has been an equally fulfilling experience in terms of just the conversations that happen.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: I do write editorials sometimes, but for the most part I'm doing signed essays and I work directly with my editors on pitching those ideas and fleshing out the angles and their pros.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm still a young writer, so it's great to have the direction of people who have been in the field for decades and have been fantastic editors for decades.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: So I really enjoyed working under Jim Dow and Alan Worsbicki and I also participate in the editorial board meetings.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Another joy has been getting to see local opinions play out and the dynamics of the Boston City Council and how that impacts state politics.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: These are real, on the ground issues that directly impact people in Boston, around Boston, and I grew up in Boston, so it's really great to see those issues play out and get to do some reporting with the city council or state reps and get to know these people a little better than you would on the national stage when you're covering national politics or international politics, and so that's been really fulfilling.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: I've loved covering immigration in Boston specifically because you're seeing the impacts in places that next to where I went to high school or the shelter you volunteered at, and getting to see local organizations step up and help.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: The situation has been really interesting.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: So truly been a joy to work there and get to learn so much from my colleagues who are pros on state politics and know what inside out.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Pete Sinclair.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: When you're working on a piece, is there a voice in your head saying this is going to be read by my family and my friends, because you are from the Boston area?
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Lila Sinclair.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: It's funny because I often get emails after writing something and your interaction with readers is much more personal, which I really love.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: I often get an email from somebody who went to college with my grandpa, who hadn't seen his last name in decades and all of a sudden wants to say hi, and I get that a lot.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: So I really do love that part of the job and getting to go over and show my grandpa you know, here's your old classmate.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: It feels great to be at the hometown paper and explore issues that impact the community I grew up in.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: We take great pride that you were one of our Joseph Rago Fellows and you're doing so well now in your early part of your career.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I'm thrilled also to announce that this year we'll be selecting two young people to be Rago Fellows.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: We'll have two Rago Fellows at the Wall Street Journal.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: We have a strong applicant pool so I'm confident we'll find two outstanding people to follow in your footsteps and the footsteps of Elliot Kaufman and Faith Bodham and others who've been fellows.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Let me ask you what do you think the future is of journalism?
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: You know it's been a tough profession for young people to go into.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Papers have closed.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: We're working hard here to make sure there is a strong pipeline of independent-minded young people who want to go into journalism and we do that through the Rago Fellowship and our Novak Fellowships and the work we do on campus with newspapers.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: But are you hopeful?
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: You're in a career that will have a great bright future for you.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: I think I can't speak so much about, you know, the future of news with AI and I know everyone's kind of bringing their hands trying to figure out what's going to happen there.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: But people are always going to want an opinion and people are always going to want to react to opinions.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: So I feel quite secure on the opinion side of things and I have a lot of hope seeing the really amazing things that organizations like T-FAS are doing on campuses and your work with conservative papers like the salient at Harvard.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: I've been so impressed and really happy that that's become a space where people can share different opinions and I really do think that we're at a time now where more efforts like that are going to be what keeps journalism afloat.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: If young people see that this is an area where they can disagree with each other, where they can go back and forth and test ideas on paper, I think it could be a part of the revival of higher education.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: So I do really have a lot of hope there and meeting and speaking to some of the folks on campus who reach out to me, students who want advice there's no shortage of interest on campus.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: So I have hope there On the opinion side of things.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Like I said, there's always going to be opinions and it's been interesting seeing, I guess, new ways that opinions are delivered and I think that legacy papers like the Boston Globe are adapting to them well, like newsletters.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: People love getting newsletters and we recently rolled out a newsletter for the primary, called the primary source, condensing the way in which you have like a central article that is usually shorter in format and then various we call it like the rumor section very shorter, reported tidbits about what's going on in state politics and also in the national election, and getting news straight to people's inboxes in a digestible format like that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's important that we adapt in that way and deliver a product like that.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: So there's an interesting evolution going on in opinion journalism and it's been fun to be a part of it.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, karine.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: As I said, we're proud of what you're doing and I would continue talking with you, except I want to give you your time back so you can go out and report and write some great columns.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Anyone listening today can find your columns at the Boston Globe.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: You also probably still have the sub stack from your travels in Europe, right, yep, that people can find if they put your name into Google.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: You had a clever name in your blog.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, it was Girl on the Loose, girl on the Loose.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Ok, congratulations on the great work you're doing at the Boston Globe.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: You're doing a tremendous Rago fellow and it's really been a pleasure to chat with you today about your career.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Likewise thanks for having me on and thanks to T-Fast for getting me here.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: It was invaluable.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Pleasure, thank you.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Liberty and Leadership podcast.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: If you have a comment or question, please drop us an email at podcast at tfasorg, and be sure to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app and leave a five star review.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Liberty and Leadership is produced at Podville Media.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, roger Rehm, and until next time, show courage in things, large and small.