Latest / Sunlight Matters / Is Avoiding the Sun as Risky as Smoking? With Professor Pelle Lindqvist

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Is Avoiding the Sun as Risky as Smoking? With Professor Pelle Lindqvist · Sunlight Matters

• 0:00
  Dave Wallace: Today we regard insufficient sun exposure as the fourth major lifestyle risk factor, alongside smoking, physical inactivity and obesity.
• 0:10
  Dave Wallace: When I read that, I was like, it kind of really puts the whole thing into perspective because this is a huge risk factor.
• 0:18
  Dave Wallace: At the same time, people are opting to live indoors a lot.
• 0:23
  Pelle Lindqvist: We thought that in the oldest age group, non-smoking uh women not uh having an active sun exposure, they were at the same risk as smokers with the highest sun exposure habits.
• 0:38
  Pelle Lindqvist: That uh in in a northern country like Sweden, avoiding sun exposure is a risk factor in the same level as uh smoking.
• 0:51
  Pelle Lindqvist: During my my 20 years of research, it has not been possible to get any any funding.
• 0:58
  Pelle Lindqvist: Last year was the first time I got a I got a small amount of funding for the sun exposure research.
• 1:06
  Dave Wallace: Welcome to Sunlight Matters, the podcast that reconnects us with the sun.
• 1:11
  Dave Wallace: Join us as we explore the power and influence of our star, the force at the heart of everything.
• 1:19
  Dave Wallace: Each episode we speak with leading experts to uncover the ways sunlight shapes our world.
• 1:26
  Dave Wallace: Well, thank thank you so much for for joining.
• 1:30
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:32
  Dave Wallace: Um I I wonder, Pelle, I mean, as I I just said to you, I sort of feel like I'm talking to Sun Royalty because almost every interview I I've done, um every sort of major article I've I've read uh quotes your work.
• 1:51
  Dave Wallace: So um I sort of feel like from the very beginning um of the sort of re-emergence of sort of thinking around the sun, the the work that you did was super critical.
• 2:04
  Dave Wallace: Uh but but for those who may not know who you are, I wonder if you could just give us a brief introduction to yourself and and talk a bit about what you do.
• 2:17
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yes, I'm uh I'm um I'm a professor and senior consultant at uh South uh South General Ho Hospital in in Stockholm.
• 2:28
  Pelle Lindqvist: And for the for the my one of my main research um fields is um is uh beneficial effects of sun exposure and uh so which I've been doing for for the last uh twenty years.
• 2:52
  Dave Wallace: Wow.
• 2:52
  Dave Wallace: So I mean, but your background i isn't sort of focusing on the sun, you sort of moved into that.
• 3:00
  Pelle Lindqvist: Um yeah, yeah, I'm an uh I am an obstetrician and and uh I am my special field in clinical is is is treatment and prevention of of um venous thrombo embolies.
• 3:16
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and it it it it was actually um uh some some twenty years ago I was out hunting with a friend and and and he was having this cohort, he he's an oncologist and uh and um and he was he he was uh researching the the the uppermost uh sun exposure habits that uh for the for the risk of of melanoma and and he he's also doing breast cancer.
• 3:56
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and and I was uh what I thought at the time was was that all vitamin D deficiency is is an inflammatory condition, and all inflammatory conditions uh have have an increased real risk of venous thromboemolies.
• 4:18
  Pelle Lindqvist: So I I was asking him several times if I couldn't do the the the beneficial effects of of sun exposure.
• 4:30
  Dave Wallace: I and I mean that that study itself, I mean is is now very famous and it's been going on for for quite some time.
• 4:38
  Dave Wallace: I mean it involved tens of thousands of of women, didn't it?
• 4:43
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yes, yeah, we are we are following 29,000 women and we are now i in for for year uh 34.
• 4:52
  Dave Wallace: Year 34.
• 4:54
  Dave Wallace: I mean that's incredible.
• 4:55
  Dave Wallace: I mean it we'll we'll come back to the original um the original findings, but but you've just um published some think results, I think, and a paper around use of sunbed in that that yeah, yeah.
• 5:10
  Dave Wallace: So can you just talk a bit about that?
• 5:12
  Dave Wallace: Because what you found confounds what the the kind of overall narrative is, isn't it?
• 5:19
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, we actually we we we find we we have the same data as everybody else.
• 5:26
  Pelle Lindqvist: I I could see in new meta and analysis they were showing those those that are that are sun exposed that are exposing themselves in in the sun beds, they are at at um twenty seven percent increased risk of of of getting m uh melanoma.
• 5:47
  Pelle Lindqvist: And in in in in in our cohort we we had there was um twenty-eight percent increased real risk of melanoma among sun exposures.
• 5:58
  Pelle Lindqvist: But but the but the one of the qu one of the questions that has been been circulating around is when when when you're using a solarium you are determining the the time the time of UV exposure yourself yourself.
• 6:20
  Pelle Lindqvist: It should it should actually be a safe form of of UV exposure.
• 6:27
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and uh uh so what what I what I did here was that in in in addition to the just sun exposure, yes or no, that that was associated with with 28% increased risk.
• 6:45
  Pelle Lindqvist: We we we divided the the sunbed uses in into uh into the the those that have have uh that have related sun uh exposure habits that were that were related with increased risk.
• 7:07
  Pelle Lindqvist: And we we we did have have data for in in in three different uh things.
• 7:14
  Pelle Lindqvist: We we we we have data on uh w which women that were that were were that were um uh sun exposure and until they were burning.
• 7:29
  Pelle Lindqvist: We we have uh those with um that were creaming themselves to be out for a long time in the sun, and those that are going for um for a holiday south for for sunbathing.
• 7:44
  Pelle Lindqvist: All of these three habits are known to be to be at increased risk.
• 7:51
  Pelle Lindqvist: Just to to go south isn't by by itself uh an uh an increased risk, but but you you you come from the UK and and when we see UK at uh at Tenerifa uh at day two and three, they are they are very red.
• 8:13
  Pelle Lindqvist: They are overexposing.
• 8:15
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and and and this is uh this is the the the problem with with in in terms of melanoma.
• 8:25
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and um and and the results then was that that um there were no difference between between not using a sunbed and using a sunbed without without ha sun e exposure habits with oversposure.
• 8:43
  Pelle Lindqvist: All the risk was was was among those with overexposure.
• 8:49
  Pelle Lindqvist: So and and they had above a 60% increase the re risk.
• 8:59
  Dave Wallace: If you're enjoying Sunlight Matters, make sure to subscribe and leave us a review on your favourite podcast platform.
• 9:06
  Dave Wallace: You can also search Sunlight Matters on Google to find more episodes, guest information, and further insights about sunlight analysis, solar exposure, and the way light shapes our spaces.
• 9:20
  Dave Wallace: So so I mean that I mean and that's that's really good and clear information because you know I I guess one of the things that um i i is important is that people realize that overexposure to the sun increases your risk factors of melanoma, doesn't it?
• 9:41
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yes, yes.
• 9:42
  Pelle Lindqvist: And uh so is that that's a that's a that is uh the main major uh risk.
• 9:50
  Pelle Lindqvist: But uh and then we we we added more data.
• 9:54
  Pelle Lindqvist: We see since we have a very long follow-up period, we we we uh we we we um compared those with um with these three groups the risk of dying during during the the the next next uh thirty-four years.
• 10:18
  Pelle Lindqvist: And we and we can see that both both uh sunbed groups were were having uh around eighteen percent incre decreased risk of of of dying during the next thirty-four years.
• 10:37
  Pelle Lindqvist: And so so this the women that were using sunbeds, they were living uh almost they were living around one year longer in mean.
• 10:51
  Pelle Lindqvist: So that's that's uh statistically huge and uh yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, it's just amazing.
• 11:01
  Dave Wallace: I and so I mean within that data, um I I I I mean can I just uh and and you'll have to forgive me because I'm probably asking dumb questions, but within that data so these women who are using sunbeds, they tended to be uh more uh sun lovers anyway, didn't they?
• 11:20
  Dave Wallace: So as well as sunbeds, they were tending to to uh get outside more, is that right?
• 11:30
  Pelle Lindqvist: Actually we we don't know that.
• 11:32
  Dave Wallace: Okay.
• 11:34
  Pelle Lindqvist: We don't have any any um but we we did uh adjust for um exercise uh the um be adjusted for for several different different fact um uh um variables.
• 11:52
  Dave Wallace: Fantastic.
• 11:53
  Pelle Lindqvist: So but that that then would suggest so if you're even though you might be at increased risk of melanoma, the the melanoma's sort of not the thing that I mean in in many cases is is the cause of mortality, isn't it is that yeah, yeah, and and then we we we sent the the paper to uh for for publicate publication and and the and the and the editors wanted also data on on melanoma mortality.
• 12:23
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and um there was no difference in the melanoma mortality between the the three groups.
• 12:32
  Dave Wallace: Which is which is again is a staff because again that sort of flies in the face of what we would all imagine.
• 12:39
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, yeah, we before to to to get lung cancer, for example, that means it's the same thing if you're getting lung cancer and and you are dying from lung cancer, but in terms of melanoma, I think it is it it's around 10% of the melanoma cases that are dying in in melanoma.
• 13:04
  Dave Wallace: Right.
• 13:04
  Dave Wallace: Okay, no, interesting.
• 13:05
  Dave Wallace: So I I want to go back to the original study because I think that the sunbed thing is fascinating.
• 13:11
  Dave Wallace: Um because it sort of suggests that actually using sunbeds in a responsible way is is is not can be very beneficial for people.
• 13:22
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, I I can I can tell you that uh I'm uh from now until until March April, I I'm I'm using some bed a couple of a couple of minutes uh once a week.
• 13:38
  Pelle Lindqvist: Okay.
• 13:39
  Pelle Lindqvist: Well, well that's good to not and not to get not to get um a tan, I mean just to get to to to continue to to to be in good health.
• 13:49
  Dave Wallace: And I mean I I want uh just before we talk about the original study.
• 13:54
  Dave Wallace: So what's going on?
• 13:55
  Dave Wallace: What what is it that's beneficial from it's the UV light from the sunbed, isn't it?
• 14:02
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, that is what what what we believe.
• 14:05
  Pelle Lindqvist: We we believe that it is we we got we got several things uh from from the from the UV light, we get everybody knows about vitamin D, but but we also have have uh nitric oxide and andorphins.
• 14:23
  Pelle Lindqvist: And I I do think that that the vitamin D is interesting in in terms of autoimmunity and cancer for prognosis, but but but in terms of of um uh type 2 diabetes and and uh cardiovascular disease, it it is a nitric oxide.
• 14:44
  Pelle Lindqvist: And in terms of of um psychological uh feelings, I think that I think it it is uh endorphins.
• 14:57
  Dave Wallace: I mean it to it's one of the things which it is really amazed me.
• 15:01
  Dave Wallace: Is so so I I ended up kind of doing this podcast and the work that I do um because I found myself sitting in the sun one day just thinking, why do I feel so amazing in the sun?
• 15:14
  Dave Wallace: You know, it's those endorphines which make you feel good, and you you know you have to conclude that the body wouldn't produce endorphins if sun wasn't good for you in it at some level, wouldn't you?
• 15:28
  Dave Wallace: I mean they those endorphines are there for a reason, aren't they?
• 15:33
  Pelle Lindqvist: I would suppose that that that is through evolution when when we were when we were walking out from Africa that we that the body needed different ways to to increase sun exposure and to to lower the need of of um time in the sun.
• 16:04
  Pelle Lindqvist: So yeah and and here we have so those populations living living far away from them from the equator through the thousands of years we will will turn m more and more pale in in order to shorten the time necessary in the sun.
• 16:29
  Dave Wallace: Okay, that makes that makes perfect sense.
• 16:32
  Pelle Lindqvist: So and uh and um and i I know that something and one of the reasons might might might be the the the the lowering of of the of the blood pressure and an increased blood pressure is a driver for for all for for for k mainly cardiovascular disease, myocardial infarction and uh and and uh strokes.
• 17:09
  Dave Wallace: Fascinating.
• 17:10
  Dave Wallace: So let's go back to the original study.
• 17:12
  Dave Wallace: Um because I when you first started that, what were your kind of what were your expectations in terms of what you might find in the data?
• 17:24
  Pelle Lindqvist: Okay, I I I was uh I was uh inflammatory conditions are is is um is uh all inflammatory conditions are related to increased risk of venous thrombo thromboembolism.
• 17:46
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and I my h hypothesis in the beginning was that that that uh since we know and sin vitamin D deficiency ha has been been been related to to e inflammation.
• 18:08
  Pelle Lindqvist: And I and and I th and I thought that that um women that that was un exposed should uh then lower the lower the amount of of inflammation and and um and um and reduce the the risk of tron thrombo embolism.
• 18:30
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and and we we found that that um we we we we choose I think in the mist cohort we have some some 30 or 40 questions regarding sun exposure and I choose four all of them that that are kind of weighted towards winter use.
• 18:52
  Pelle Lindqvist: Because in in in in Sweden and northern country the pr the problem isn't the summer, the the the problem to to get sufficient levels are are due during the during the winter.
• 19:08
  Pelle Lindqvist: So we we we we we asked four questions and then it was do you do use do you sun exposure during summer?
• 19:18
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and and and and the the alternatives here here is no, yes a little, yes, moderate, yes a lot, yes, very lot.
• 19:27
  Pelle Lindqvist: The guys that that are that were going for melanoma, they are they are looking for the highest risk.
• 19:37
  Pelle Lindqvist: I'm I'm looking for the lowest risk here.
• 19:40
  Pelle Lindqvist: I'm I'm so I put a line between no and yes a little.
• 19:45
  Pelle Lindqvist: So yes a little is is yes.
• 19:49
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and the other questions were where do you do you sun exposed during winter holiday?
• 19:56
  Pelle Lindqvist: Do you go south at least one one week a year to sunbath?
• 20:02
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and do you use the sunbed?
• 20:05
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and for and in terms of of um Venus thromboemalism, for every yes you you said on on this question, the risk of of of um of during the coming eleven years, the the risk of thromboemy was was reduced by uh between 30 and 40 percent.
• 20:31
  Pelle Lindqvist: 30 and 40 percent for for each yes.
• 20:36
  Dave Wallace: Wow.
• 20:37
  Dave Wallace: I mean that again is statistically huge, isn't it?
• 20:41
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, yeah, it's it's uh and and and and after the after this we we we have in in our in our guidelines for for um for for um obstetric patients uh preg and pregnant who women we have women at increased risk are are supposed to uh uh uh to sun expose to to lower their their risk.
• 21:15
  Dave Wallace: So so that's found its way into medical yeah, yeah.
• 21:19
  Dave Wallace: Okay.
• 21:20
  Pelle Lindqvist: I mean I because I don't know, do you I mean it do you I'm just trying to think about like when babies uh I I mean a baby's born sort of evenly across the year or do you find yeah but i more or i okay i i in southern Sweden they are more or less evenly during the during the during the year.
• 21:48
  Pelle Lindqvist: In in northern Sweden the there's a lot more born in in in in in in spring summer.
• 22:01
  Dave Wallace: Wow.
• 22:03
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and in that study, we we we saw that the during during the winter it it was a 30-40 percent increase to risk of of venous thromboembolies.
• 22:15
  Dave Wallace: I mean that I mean I because I I mean I've got five children.
• 22:19
  Dave Wallace: Maybe my wife didn't ever have a risk factor, but at no point was the sun mentioned to us as something that would be a good thing.
• 22:29
  Pelle Lindqvist: No, I I I I I suppose that uh e even if even if this is uh the uh the national guidelines, yeah, I I I I I think that there is there is very many women that don't get the information.
• 22:48
  Dave Wallace: Well, it's it's interesting.
• 22:50
  Dave Wallace: I mean, and and one of the striking findings, and I'm I'm saying this because coincidentally, my wife sent me a TikTok saying women who smoke who have high sun exposure, their risk of mortality was lower um than those who avoided the sun.
• 23:07
  Dave Wallace: So beyond blood clots, there were some bigger sort of themes that you pulled out as well, weren't there?
• 23:13
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, we this was in terms of of of all cost mortality.
• 23:18
  Pelle Lindqvist: We we were in order to understand what what what what what these pr relative risk measurements are, we we we made it we made an adjusted an analysis where we where we where we looked at at different age groups and and and um for for for each a and and and we divided the the women into into non-sun exposures, moderate sun exposures and high sun exposures, and and and and and divided in into smokers and non-smokers.
• 24:09
  Pelle Lindqvist: And we can see there that smokers die earlier than non-smokers.
• 24:14
  Pelle Lindqvist: That we have known for many many years.
• 24:18
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and um then we show that in the oldest age group non-smoking uh women not sun exposure, uh not uh uh uh having an active sun exposure, oh they were at the same risk as smokers with with the highest sun exposure habits.
• 24:44
  Pelle Lindqvist: So so the our conclusion was that that that uh in in a northern country like Sweden, uh with a low UV, avoiding sun exposure is a risk factor in the same same um level as as smoking.
• 25:09
  Dave Wallace: Which is again like it that's a huge, huge, yes.
• 25:14
  Dave Wallace: I mean we you you've written the foreword to uh uh uh a book which I think has been published in in Norway.
• 25:22
  Dave Wallace: Um I'm hoping fingers crossed it gets published in in uh the UK and uh US.
• 25:29
  Dave Wallace: Um it's called The Sun Cure by um Torquel Faro.
• 25:37
  Dave Wallace: Um I just wanted to read because you've done the foreword to it.
• 25:41
  Dave Wallace: I just wanted to read this paragraph because I think it's really like it's sort of building on that.
• 25:47
  Dave Wallace: It's uh people naturally want simple advice, but there are large individual differences, which I guess is true.
• 25:54
  Dave Wallace: So we've got skin type, genetics, age, geographical location, and lifestyle all influence the optimal amount of UV exposure.
• 26:03
  Dave Wallace: The conclusion may be simpler than the debate often suggests.
• 26:06
  Dave Wallace: Repeated sunburn is probably harmful.
• 26:09
  Dave Wallace: Avoiding the sun entirely is probably not beneficial either.
• 26:14
  Dave Wallace: Between these extremes lies the balance in which human beings have lived throughout our evolutionary history.
• 26:20
  Dave Wallace: Today we regard insufficient sun exposure as the fourth major lifestyle risk risk factor, alongside smoking, physical, physical inactivity and obesity.
• 26:33
  Dave Wallace: When I read that, I was like, it kind of really puts the whole thing into perspective, doesn't it?
• 26:41
  Dave Wallace: Like you're you're saying this is a a huge risk factor, like a and at the same time, people are opting to live indoors a lot more.
• 26:51
  Dave Wallace: So I think the average out outside time or the inside time for for the majority of people in the northern hemisphere is like 90%.
• 27:00
  Dave Wallace: So yeah.
• 27:01
  Dave Wallace: You know, this this is a is a really big thing, isn't it?
• 27:06
  Pelle Lindqvist: Uh I think it's a it's it's a really big thing, and and uh it it it's interesting now.
• 27:13
  Pelle Lindqvist: I'm I'm very happy that that uh that it is um studies now for from the UK Biobank that that are showing showing similar results.
• 27:27
  Pelle Lindqvist: So and also it is starting to to come up um mechanistic studies uh that are that are good that um so we we we are closing in to show that my my findings are are observational findings, but but but we are closing in towards uh towards causal uh findings.
• 27:59
  Dave Wallace: I I and but I mean this this is like it's such a big thing.
• 28:04
  Dave Wallace: And going back to policy, if you've got policy around um people with risk of thrombosis, that's one thing, but basically, if you can get whole populations to lower their risk of cardiovascular and metabolic diseases, I mean that's that's absolutely huge, isn't it?
• 28:28
  Dave Wallace: Because the costs involved of curing these things are just absolutely unbelievable.
• 28:34
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah.
• 28:35
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, I'm uh I'm just amazed that uh do you during my my 20 years of research, it has not been possible to get any any founding.
• 28:48
  Pelle Lindqvist: The last year was the first time I got a I got a a small small amount of founding for for for the sun exposure research.
• 29:02
  Dave Wallace: Uh I mean which I find unbelievable because you you are the one of the rock stars of this whole thing.
• 29:09
  Dave Wallace: Like you you're quoted everywhere.
• 29:12
  Dave Wallace: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Pelle Lindqvist: But yeah, I I I'm going against the wind, I can I I can tell you.
• 29:18
  Dave Wallace: Well, I I think I mean it's people like you, uh, I mean, I guess Richard Weller, yeah, he's going very much.
• 29:25
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah, he he he's one of the one of the researchers in the UK studies.
• 29:31
  Dave Wallace: I and I mean I don't know, you may not have a view of this, but what on earth's going on?
• 29:35
  Dave Wallace: Because if I was a if I was a policymaker and someone came to me and I said, Well, look, you know, long term you could reduce the risk of these diseases by getting people outside and children, you know, going back to doing what they used to do, and all you'd have thought people would just go, yeah, this is I uh I I think it is a lot these results are not wanted.
• 30:02
  Pelle Lindqvist: And people decided in in the in the 1980s that that sun exposure was dangerous, and and uh after this this there have been a huge amount of money put in put into to this and and um uh uh I don't really know the reasons, but uh but it it is it's not healthy.
• 30:31
  Dave Wallace: No, and I well I and I think you you you know I guess none of us really know the full reasons, but it's it is really weird.
• 30:38
  Dave Wallace: Maybe it's just because this is still emergent science, because as you as you point out, like you there's your work, there's people like Richard Weller who was published, you know, Glenn Jeffrey out of UCL.
• 30:50
  Dave Wallace: So that the evidence is sort of building around all of these things.
• 30:54
  Pelle Lindqvist: Yeah.
• 30:54
  Pelle Lindqvist: But but in terms of I think that uh the in terms of type 2 diabetes, we we are almost uh uh uh uh arriving uh at the coin causal effects.
• 31:09
  Pelle Lindqvist: It's may it's mainly because of uh it is an Australian research group, Sally Gorman, and and and they have done the the the mouse exp experiments on and and and and they they they exposed two lines of of all mice with one with one with UV and one without, and they were they were treating them in the same way and feeding them with with a high high-fattening diet, and and and uh and uh the exposed mice were were having lower glucose values, less insulin resistance, less liver steatosis, better better blood lipids, and and and they were gaining less in weight.
• 32:10
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and uh and they in another line they they tried it with vitamin D, and vitamin D didn't have any effect.
• 32:20
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and then they they blocked nitric oxide, and and and a lot of the the most of the effect disappeared.
• 32:29
  Pelle Lindqvist: So so in so in terms of type 2 diabetes, it is uh the the nitric oxide that that is that is probably causing the the reduced risk of type 2 diabetes.
• 32:48
  Pelle Lindqvist: And and epidemiological, we we we have we have um just a month ago pub and published in in uh scientific report uh um uh study based on the on the UK Biobank, and we can see the uh all all areas are are are uh mapped in in in in UK with every every square kilometer and and and and the the and all three hundred and ninety thousand uh people the the they were we we know what date and what place they were at at and and the the the higher the you you with exposure the the lower the glucose values the blood glucose values after three days and after seven days um and and um and and also the more sun ex the the more sun beds uh people were using the lower the risk of of of of um of uh um of um uh future type two dia diabetes.
• 34:13
  Pelle Lindqvist: And it was a dose-dependent relationship.
• 34:19
  Dave Wallace: I mean that's it's it's actually extraordinary when you think well it but it's not extraordinary at the same time because no, you know, when you think about our having to if we evolved under under the sun, and you you know, it kind of makes perfect sense in a in a way that we're tuned to it.
• 34:37
  Dave Wallace: I mean, just on that, like I was talking to someone from the um the Middle East who was like telling me about I think the rates of diabetes in the Middle East are like 25 percent, and I was like, Well, have you thought about the fact that people in the Middle East aren't going outside very much?
• 34:56
  Dave Wallace: Because I think you know their their rates of inside life are sort of 95% and above, and it it was kind of interesting because they hadn't even considered it because they thought it was to do to food and inactivity, and I was like, Well, people aren't just getting outside, so there's sort of populations out there of who's spending more time inside because of of kind of climate conditions and things, uh, so you you know, I guess it it's like a massive jigsaw puzzle, all of this, which is sort of slowly being put together.
• 35:27
  Dave Wallace: Um, and you know, I I guess I hope that coming out of this is is people begin to think more about uh like lifestyle changes, like getting outside a lot more, yeah, maybe getting a dog, you know.
• 35:42
  Dave Wallace: I always think a dog's a good thing to get out of here, but it it it's it's really interesting, and I you know, I I guess I I'm very grateful for people like yourself because you know it's been a must have been a very brave move in terms of flying against the perceived yeah, it's it's against the wind.
• 36:05
  Pelle Lindqvist: It's against the wind, and I think and and and before I I was doing genetic research, uh, and and at that time money wasn't the problem.
• 36:16
  Pelle Lindqvist: But but uh as soon as I started the sun exposure, uh the beneficial effects of sun exposure, uh it it was it was impossible to to get funding.
• 36:29
  Pelle Lindqvist: Which I I mean again it's extraordinary, but I think and it it is very very unscientific.
• 36:39
  Pelle Lindqvist: It it is it is um uh if if only real real research going for for the negative uh uh uh effects are are getting sponsored.
• 36:55
  Pelle Lindqvist: We have uh a structural structural bias in in the results.
• 37:03
  Dave Wallace: It it is so i i mean I because I I did it I I did a degree in psychology, statistics is obviously part of you know what you and you can kind of basically find anything in data.
• 37:19
  Dave Wallace: I guess what's scary about this whole um topic of the sun is you know that there's gonna be market, you know, people in marketing who you know they're they're given a brief around sungreen or whatever it is, who will find something in the data which you know they use rather than you know, like you've done is explore data over multiple decades and uh you know across huge cohorts.
• 37:50
  Dave Wallace: And I I mean I I I think the more people can kind of reference what you've done, I think the the better things will be, you know.
• 38:00
  Pelle Lindqvist: So we can hop.
• 38:05
  Dave Wallace: But as I say, look, I I mean I I feel very privileged that I've had a chance to to talk to you.
• 38:11
  Dave Wallace: Um you know I'm extremely grateful on behalf of uh everybody in this field for the work that you've done.
• 38:20
  Dave Wallace: And I you know I can't wait to continue to see the conclusions that that you reach because I know that they'll be born out of the data.
• 38:29
  Dave Wallace: So even if the data doesn't tell you what you expect, it's what will what will come out.
• 38:34
  Dave Wallace: So, you know, I really appreciate everything that you're doing.
• 38:38
  Pelle Lindqvist: Thank you.
• 38:40
  Dave Wallace: Thanks for listening to Sunlight Matters, brought to you by Shadowman, where we explore how sunlight influences the way we build, design, and live each day.
• 38:50
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• 38:57
  Dave Wallace: You can also search Sunlight Matters on Google to find all our repositors, guest information and resources about sunlight analysis, solar exploding, best game orientation for next and light.
• 39:09
  Dave Wallace: You can also head over to shadowmap.org, where you can download our iOS or Android app for free today to visualize how the sun is currently impacting your ear.
• 39:19
  Dave Wallace: We appreciate you being part of the conversation and we'll see you next time where you can keep exploring the world through the lens of light.