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27. Family Constellations Explained: A Scientific & Spiritual Approach with Natalia Bullon · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiora and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Today I have the pleasure of talking with Natalia Bullion.
• 0:41
  Tracy Cartwright: I think I said that right.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: We just were practicing before we started.
• 0:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, but I'll, I'll allow you to please pronounce that correctly for me and to introduce yourself, Natalia, so that the listeners of the viewers know a little bit about who you are.
• 0:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And yeah, whatever you feel like sharing would be amazing.
• 1:02
  Natalia Bullon: Well first, uh, thank you Tracy for inviting me.
• 1:05
  Natalia Bullon: I've seen, um, right from the beginning how you started all this initiative, and I think it's wonderful that you bring this integration of many type of approaches in family constellations and everything else that, you know, supports.
• 1:20
  Natalia Bullon: Spiritual growth into, uh, our showcase in this way.
• 1:24
  Natalia Bullon: So, well, amazing initiative.
• 1:27
  Natalia Bullon: Thank you for inviting me.
• 1:28
  Natalia Bullon: Thank you.
• 1:28
  Natalia Bullon: And my name, um, is Natalia Ion.
• 1:32
  Natalia Bullon: Well, I'm originally from Peru, but I came to New Zealand eight years.
• 1:36
  Natalia Bullon: Ago, around eight years.
• 1:38
  Natalia Bullon: And since then I've been dedicated to continue family Constellation workshops, uh, individual sessions.
• 1:45
  Natalia Bullon: But I also, I'm a lecturer at university and I also a research scientist in private industry.
• 1:53
  Natalia Bullon: So yeah, a little bit of many things at the same time with, uh, let's say, um, supporting people in their journeys.
• 2:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I, one of the questions I had in mind to talk with you about, um, and you've already mentioned it, that you're a, you work in the sciences, so how do you find, I'm just gonna jump straight in here.
• 2:15
  Tracy Cartwright: How do you find the constellations and explaining it to your sciencey friends?
• 2:21
  Natalia Bullon: Oh, yeah.
• 2:23
  Natalia Bullon: Well, I should confess that I have.
• 2:26
  Natalia Bullon: Always, I have to start that family consolation is not something that is scientifically proven in the, in the how scientific way, let's say like where you see observable correlations between one thing and the results, we can start discussing here, what is science, blah, blah, blah.
• 2:46
  Natalia Bullon: But that's not the point.
• 2:47
  Natalia Bullon: But I started saying that.
• 2:49
  Natalia Bullon: It is not a hundred percent conclusive in, at least in the scientific literature about the effects of family constellations in the feeling of wellness or wellbeing, because it's not one thing that.
• 3:05
  Natalia Bullon: Creates or causes that affect, could be many things together, or two or three.
• 3:11
  Natalia Bullon: So when I say this to people, because they come to me like, oh, she has this sciencey background and she does family constellation.
• 3:20
  Natalia Bullon: Must be because you know there is something there and stray right from the beginning.
• 3:25
  Natalia Bullon: I said, look, if you check in Google, actually you see that it is, it's mentioned as zero.
• 3:31
  Natalia Bullon: Pseudoscientific the pseudoscience, um, because it's not a hundred percent correlated or observable or attributable to one causal relationship.
• 3:44
  Natalia Bullon: And after that, I start elaborating on what is positive as the mechanism of how family Constellation works.
• 3:53
  Natalia Bullon: From, from a very, very systematic, and, you know, perhaps boring way of how I see things from the science perspective.
• 4:01
  Natalia Bullon: So I say that to my science friends.
• 4:05
  Natalia Bullon: I say that the way we interpret reality is not only cause, because of our genetic disposition, 'cause of our culture, because of our physical physicality.
• 4:21
  Natalia Bullon: The way we interpret reality is because of many things that come together and perhaps moving one little aspect in how we see this reality can help to have a wider vision of how we interpret reality.
• 4:38
  Natalia Bullon: And I would say that small part can is the power of the mind, which I, I, I posit that.
• 4:46
  Natalia Bullon: While we work your family constellation,
• 4:48
  Tracy Cartwright: and as you do that, I'm watching you with your fingers and I was just reminded, you know, it takes just you when you're using binoculars or you are.
• 4:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, lining up the sites of a rifle or something like that, you know, if target practice, and it's just the tiniest minute ast little movement.
• 5:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 5:05
  Tracy Cartwright: And it makes all the difference.
• 5:06
  Tracy Cartwright: That was just like, as you were doing that with your hands, I was like, yeah, it is just sometimes you just need to tighten that up or loosen that up, or,
• 5:17
  Natalia Bullon: mm. Yeah.
• 5:19
  Natalia Bullon: I think that more and more I hear people that, um, they are looking for the big solution.
• 5:29
  Natalia Bullon: And I think the antidote to this, um, vision is that sometimes you just need a little tweak is like the, the movement of the, um, butterfly, right?
• 5:42
  Natalia Bullon: That creates this wide phenomena of even, um, I don't know.
• 5:48
  Natalia Bullon: Um.
• 5:50
  Natalia Bullon: A storm in another country when it started.
• 5:52
  Natalia Bullon: So we don't know really like, like the impact of one little thing.
• 5:57
  Natalia Bullon: And I like to to mention that because it's not like we can create, you will come and then you will come out completely different.
• 6:06
  Natalia Bullon: Might be, but could be that just that little thing that changed today.
• 6:12
  Natalia Bullon: In two years, you come to a session with Tracy and then all of a sudden it makes sense and it's not because of that particular space in time, in that moment, it was because there were many other things that contributed to this final moment.
• 6:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Many more layers moving in between all of that, eh?
• 6:33
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 6:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 6:35
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and I guess the epigenetic side of things.
• 6:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 6:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 6:39
  Tracy Cartwright: There, there is science in that, isn't there?
• 6:42
  Natalia Bullon: I mean still, I think there is quite a lot, uh, discussed on observable phenomena correlated with, which is physically physical phenomena.
• 6:55
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, what we can actually tell when we check through the microscope, when what we see the chromosomes and jeans, when you see jeans.
• 7:04
  Natalia Bullon: You just see a series of genetic of basis, nitrogenous, basis A-C-G-T-A, uh, repeated CGTA, CT A, so, so when we see genes, we only see CGTA all the time, and how they are packed together to create genes.
• 7:20
  Natalia Bullon: It's not that we see a gene that encodes, I don't know, resentment.
• 7:26
  Natalia Bullon: It's not such, yeah, yeah.
• 7:28
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 7:29
  Natalia Bullon: So it.
• 7:31
  Natalia Bullon: From gene to protein expression, and then from protein expression to the actual functionality of the human being.
• 7:40
  Natalia Bullon: It's a wide, a wide process.
• 7:43
  Natalia Bullon: And then just because that person, let's say, has a particular protein, doesn't mean that will behave in a particular way.
• 7:52
  Natalia Bullon: So just because, uh, protein express doesn't mean anything, um, just the way that just because we have some bacteria press in our body doesn't mean that we are sick.
• 8:02
  Natalia Bullon: Um, it depends on the on, off, on and off of particular genes or particular substances in our body.
• 8:09
  Natalia Bullon: So the same way, just because our, our genes in code or, or ex proteins are expressed doesn't mean necessarily something.
• 8:18
  Natalia Bullon: Mm-hmm.
• 8:19
  Natalia Bullon: Epigenetics is, I think is helpful because it kind of supports kind of a wider vision of understanding.
• 8:27
  Natalia Bullon: Yes, we carry on certain, yeah, possibly trauma, but it's not a hundred percent conclusive.
• 8:34
  Natalia Bullon: That's what I wanna say.
• 8:35
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 8:36
  Tracy Cartwright: It's quite fascinating though.
• 8:37
  Tracy Cartwright: It fascinates me, but imprints that are, that, that run down through the generations particularly I think because we know that the, in the female line.
• 8:49
  Tracy Cartwright: All of us are in our mother's ovaries, in our grandmother's wounds.
• 8:54
  Tracy Cartwright: And then there's the parts of us that come down through the father line, which they've done quite a bit of study, uh, with animals around the effects.
• 9:04
  Tracy Cartwright: And how many gen, I think it's about seven generations, isn't it?
• 9:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, where there's quite
• 9:09
  Natalia Bullon: a, uh, I'm not exactly sure.
• 9:12
  Natalia Bullon: I always try to go to the root of all this information about the mitochondrial DNA and what is transferred from mother, grandmother.
• 9:21
  Natalia Bullon: But I'll say in my reading at least, I haven't found something like really accurate in terms of how many generations or what is really inherited from our mother.
• 9:34
  Natalia Bullon: A hundred percent or a hundred percent from our father.
• 9:37
  Natalia Bullon: Absolutely.
• 9:38
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 9:38
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 9:39
  Natalia Bullon: There is n I'll say in my own interpretation, again, it might be completely wrong if I talk to a geneticist, but it is like nothing that can be a hundred percent pointed like this comes from my mom because there is a step in recombination of DNA actually in Myosis, and the way there is a.
• 9:58
  Natalia Bullon: Crossover of genetic material that creates the person who we are.
• 10:02
  Natalia Bullon: And there is none other Natalia in the whole world that is exactly the same.
• 10:06
  Natalia Bullon: And it's a very, very marvelous, like, fascinated step in the human evolution.
• 10:14
  Natalia Bullon: And after that you can trace back.
• 10:16
  Natalia Bullon: That only comes from mother.
• 10:18
  Natalia Bullon: So I would hesitate, um, I would be very hesitant to believe that there is something that we can point pinpoint a hundred percent.
• 10:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 10:27
  Tracy Cartwright: For those who don't know, um, you and I have done some work together.
• 10:32
  Tracy Cartwright: We've held a couple of retreats together alongside with, um, Joe Amin Palate, palate Pale.
• 10:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Sorry, Joe.
• 10:42
  Tracy Cartwright: It's, it's always such a, I have to really stop and think about what her last name is.
• 10:46
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 10:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, but her last name confuses me.
• 10:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And you are based in Auckland.
• 10:52
  Tracy Cartwright: And you're based at the Buddhist Center in Mount Albert, is that That's correct, isn't it?
• 10:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's where you ran your one-on-ones and your workshops?
• 11:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, correct.
• 11:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful, beautiful.
• 11:03
  Tracy Cartwright: And when we were working together, you did quite a bit of, were you,'cause you are of the Buddhist faith.
• 11:09
  Natalia Bullon: Yes.
• 11:09
  Natalia Bullon: Buddhist
• 11:10
  Tracy Cartwright: following.
• 11:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 11:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, so that how influences your work a bit.
• 11:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 11:16
  Natalia Bullon: absolutely.
• 11:16
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 11:17
  Natalia Bullon: I think that, um, Buddhism influences quite a lot.
• 11:22
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, Buddhism is a fascinating tradition, uh, spiritual tradition and religion.
• 11:28
  Natalia Bullon: That, and this try to release us from suffering.
• 11:33
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, where Western Approaches says that you have to dig into your own history to find out who you are.
• 11:43
  Natalia Bullon: Buddhism passage.
• 11:44
  Natalia Bullon: You don't have to dig that far because you are actually, you are free already.
• 11:51
  Natalia Bullon: In a way, you just need to rediscover that essence that is within you.
• 11:56
  Natalia Bullon: And when you discover that essence through basically meditation, then you can be completely free of suffering.
• 12:03
  Natalia Bullon: So it's completely, you know, like, um, what you call radical compared to Western approach.
• 12:09
  Natalia Bullon: And in my experience as a Buddhist practitioner is.
• 12:13
  Natalia Bullon: I think makes your life like me very easy.
• 12:19
  Natalia Bullon: In a way, you are less important and your own interpretations of reality.
• 12:28
  Natalia Bullon: My start feeling like, yeah, I might be completely wrong in my own interpretation of my mother, my father, my own story, and it might be that.
• 12:39
  Natalia Bullon: All these years I've been suffering in my own hands.
• 12:43
  Natalia Bullon: So why?
• 12:43
  Natalia Bullon: That's the Buddhist approach.
• 12:44
  Natalia Bullon: So always question about your own interpretation, not putting too much effort on or to blame about particular events.
• 13:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it was fascinating because the three of us had such, you know, we were different in our styles, and yet it melded really beautifully together.
• 13:07
  Natalia Bullon: Mm-hmm.
• 13:08
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 13:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And it's such a beautiful venue that you have down there.
• 13:12
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 13:13
  Natalia Bullon: Well, here is the Cayo is, well, in Buddhism we have many lineages, Cayo, enigma, and um, and also all the stream is send tradition.
• 13:25
  Natalia Bullon: But the Cayo lineage, which I belong to is, uh, they're called Cayo because we are very focused on meditation.
• 13:34
  Natalia Bullon: And so.
• 13:36
  Natalia Bullon: Uh, big deal of our time and practice is to meditate.
• 13:42
  Natalia Bullon: And most of us, we don't like it because, well, in or we have, uh, an idea that meditation is what we are taught in the West.
• 13:51
  Natalia Bullon: That is, um, going somewhere, um, where you can find peace, I suppose, like a holiday, which is great for some people, but at some point in my own life, I, I thought like I.
• 14:05
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, I have these holidays for half an hour, and then I come back to my miserable life.
• 14:11
  Natalia Bullon: And then what's the point?
• 14:13
  Natalia Bullon: If I'm all always, you know, escaping during meditation until I discover, um, meditation in the Buddhist approach, which basically says you don't need to go somewhere else.
• 14:24
  Natalia Bullon: You can be where you are, even if you're sick or you lost someone, or you are suffering, you can be where you are with who you are at.
• 14:35
  Natalia Bullon: All times, you just have to learn how to be without running away from your reality.
• 14:41
  Natalia Bullon: And that really completely changed my perspective because then I said, then I don't need to escape from my life, like pay my children in her books.
• 14:50
  Natalia Bullon: She always, uh, talk about feeling okay while life falls harsh.
• 14:56
  Natalia Bullon: And basically that's why what Buddhism says, you don't need to escape from your life when it's falling apart.
• 15:03
  Natalia Bullon: You just need to learn to be and, and apparently we don't know how to be.
• 15:10
  Natalia Bullon: And have you got any tips on how to be.
• 15:13
  Natalia Bullon: Well, it's hard.
• 15:15
  Natalia Bullon: The, the Buddhist say they, they, they always say, oh, you just have to be like, like, it's just like, you know, easy.
• 15:23
  Natalia Bullon: But I think it's very hard and it comes from practice and we dedicate quite a lot of time to practice when we are happy, when we're sad, when we are elated or when we lost someone or we lost our health.
• 15:41
  Natalia Bullon: Um, because.
• 15:42
  Natalia Bullon: We need to learn that independently of our own experiences, whether we are a hundred percent or 0%, and we just need to be with our own mind.
• 15:55
  Natalia Bullon: So we start just tiny periods, 10 minutes morning, afternoon, and night.
• 16:01
  Natalia Bullon: Mm 18 with our own breath.
• 16:04
  Natalia Bullon: Just contemplate our own breath and thoughts will come, will, will come, will come completely, will will.
• 16:11
  Natalia Bullon: It will be like very haphazard and chaotic, but if the person really is persistent and just sits with all these mess coming and going, coming and going, and only can be with all this mess, then the person will be more equipped in the future with just.
• 16:33
  Natalia Bullon: Being there with all the chaos, 10 minutes.
• 16:37
  Natalia Bullon: And then along the way I start building, building up more time, 20 minutes, 25 minutes, and then the person will develop some insight from that.
• 16:48
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 16:49
  Tracy Cartwright: And I think what a great, you know, just the, just starting with your brief rather than trying to.
• 16:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I think people think that, you know, I can't meditate, I have to control my mind.
• 17:00
  Tracy Cartwright: I find walking and that focuses me on breathing more so for me than sitting.
• 17:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And maybe I just need to sit and be in that breath for 10 minutes.
• 17:10
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause it is, it's like my mind goes all over the place.
• 17:12
  Tracy Cartwright: And I guess that's part of it, isn't it?
• 17:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 17:15
  Natalia Bullon: yeah,
• 17:15
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 17:15
  Tracy Cartwright: I mean,
• 17:16
  Natalia Bullon: I remember when I started like way, way back in 20.
• 17:20
  Natalia Bullon: 12 in Chile.
• 17:22
  Natalia Bullon: When I was living in Chile, I started in a school, um, it was not a Buddhist school, but it was more like a philosophical school western.
• 17:32
  Natalia Bullon: But they started to provide some teachings on, on meditation, and the first hour was meditation.
• 17:39
  Natalia Bullon: And I used to have like a real normal job, like eight to five, and then every Wednesday going to this school.
• 17:47
  Natalia Bullon: And the moment the go.
• 17:50
  Natalia Bullon: The moment I fall asleep for the whole session.
• 17:54
  Natalia Bullon: And it was really like, I try so hard to, yeah, not sleep because I said like, oh my God, I can't meditate.
• 18:02
  Natalia Bullon: And I was really like getting like more anxious because I couldn't do it.
• 18:07
  Natalia Bullon: And once I talked to the, to the teacher, to Patricia, and then she said, the good thing about all this that is happening to you, so you realize you are really tired.
• 18:18
  Natalia Bullon: Perhaps you just need to sleep during the whole hour, and that's what your body needs.
• 18:23
  Natalia Bullon: But you don't know until you actually stop.
• 18:25
  Natalia Bullon: And yeah, of course I was a freak, like nonstop busy, busy, busy, busy, busy
• 18:30
  until 5: 00 PM Of course I, if, if I stop, I would be like dead, you know?
• 18:36
  until 5: So it was good to see that I was not at tired when I didn't have the time, but I was actually very tired.
• 18:47
  until 5: Yeah, so she gave me like, yeah, if you want to sleep, just sleep.
• 18:51
  until 5: So I slept, you know, the whole hour.
• 18:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, there's no resistance there.
• 18:56
  Tracy Cartwright: I can sleep.
• 18:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Right?
• 18:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And then you can start moving through that, right?
• 19:00
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 19:00
  Natalia Bullon: Of one in that moment was like, yeah, I'm really tired, but.
• 19:07
  Natalia Bullon: If you, if I, in that case, I, I, I dig very deeply.
• 19:12
  Natalia Bullon: I was like, why?
• 19:13
  Natalia Bullon: I am struggling.
• 19:14
  Natalia Bullon: I'm fighting so hard.
• 19:17
  Natalia Bullon: Um, I can make a plan based on my tiredness and maybe have a nap before coming to the session, but if I keep foing, I won't go.
• 19:30
  Natalia Bullon: I won't go anywhere, you know?
• 19:31
  Natalia Bullon: So part of me relax and Buddhist, they say that great deal of learning is to learn to relax to who we are.
• 19:43
  Natalia Bullon: And that's the first step.
• 19:45
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 19:45
  Natalia Bullon: And, and yeah, of course when we see for the first time, everything comes and then it's like, oh no, no way.
• 19:52
  Natalia Bullon: I'm crazy.
• 19:53
  Natalia Bullon: I can even.
• 19:55
  Natalia Bullon: Focus on one second.
• 19:57
  Natalia Bullon: And whoever has many days for a long time will say that's very normal.
• 20:02
  Natalia Bullon: And some people, they also think like they are already enlightened and they have this, they are in this state of, um, they gone somewhere else in.
• 20:17
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 20:18
  Natalia Bullon: And they genuinely believe they are enlightened, but the, the reality most of the time is that they just went to bed during the meditation session and they just went to a place.
• 20:31
  Natalia Bullon: You know what I mean?
• 20:32
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 20:32
  Natalia Bullon: Because they were not really present.
• 20:36
  Natalia Bullon: They just went somewhere.
• 20:37
  Natalia Bullon: So part of the bur approach, at least, is to.
• 20:42
  Natalia Bullon: Um, we deal with two types of mind, very agitated mind, which was, I was, my mind was very active, very busy, very wild.
• 20:52
  Natalia Bullon: And there is another type of mind that is very like, um, they call it like in stupid, like very drowsy and tends to go to sleep every time.
• 21:02
  Natalia Bullon: And the human mind seems to fluctuate between those two extremes.
• 21:07
  Natalia Bullon: And the Buddhist approach is to, once you realize you, your mind is very wild.
• 21:13
  Natalia Bullon: You can do something.
• 21:14
  Natalia Bullon: For instance, you search and your mind is very wide.
• 21:17
  Natalia Bullon: So they recommend, for instance, um, you open your chest, you try to intentionally breathe, um, deeper, some more air.
• 21:27
  Natalia Bullon: So that brings more settlement in your, in your, in your chakras.
• 21:32
  Natalia Bullon: Open your, your eyes a little, a little bit.
• 21:35
  Natalia Bullon: Because they are partially closed, but you open your eyes a little bit sometimes, put more blankets so you feel more like secure.
• 21:43
  Natalia Bullon: Mm-hmm.
• 21:44
  Natalia Bullon: And if it's too wild, maybe stand up, breathe some air, and then come back to sit.
• 21:52
  Natalia Bullon: If your mind is drowsy and you're falling and you're going to bed, then have a, like a towel, wet towel next to you putting your in your head, open the eyes.
• 22:03
  Natalia Bullon: Again, um, relax the muscles, move the posture.
• 22:07
  Natalia Bullon: Um, but that can only take place when the person realizes falling asleep and then can correct the posture.
• 22:14
  Natalia Bullon: So most of the time it's bringing you to the middle way, which we talk about in Buddhism, middle way, so to drowsy, middle way too, lousy, middle way, and that creates the practice.
• 22:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 22:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you use that?
• 22:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you use any form of meditation in your constellations?
• 22:32
  Natalia Bullon: In the sessions.
• 22:33
  Natalia Bullon: Yes, but to be honest, briefly, um, because when it's like a more like a program working with a person for eight weeks.
• 22:46
  Natalia Bullon: Yes.
• 22:46
  Natalia Bullon: I great deal of the work is meditation, contemplation, reflecting on some thoughts like in the same way as in, in Buddhist, in the Buddhist school, let's say.
• 23:02
  Natalia Bullon: A person has time to read, contemplate, and yeah, it's a more sustainable approach.
• 23:08
  Natalia Bullon: And you can see I, I can see changes along eight weeks, but if it's only one session, usually people course they want something, you know, out of the session.
• 23:20
  Natalia Bullon: They want to feel a particular way.
• 23:22
  Natalia Bullon: And they already explained the demands and.
• 23:26
  Natalia Bullon: I feel like if I just give meditation, it wouldn't be like something as well beneficial.
• 23:32
  Natalia Bullon: So I try to bring some insights from meditation.
• 23:35
  Natalia Bullon: I always try to invite people here to the center.
• 23:38
  Natalia Bullon: Um, I mean, it's by donation here in Nachi and they are the teachers really in meditation, whoever has to meditate more than 10,000 hours.
• 23:46
  Natalia Bullon: 20,000 hours.
• 23:48
  Natalia Bullon: And, but the, the beauty of meditation.
• 23:53
  Natalia Bullon: I think is accessible to everyone.
• 23:55
  Natalia Bullon: But you have to do the work.
• 23:57
  Tracy Cartwright: That's
• 23:59
  Natalia Bullon: right.
• 23:59
  Natalia Bullon: And And even if I do meditation for during the session, if the person doesn't meditate, that won't help much.
• 24:09
  Natalia Bullon: So the person has to really, I mean, at some point I was miserable, Tracy as well in my life, suffering like anything.
• 24:17
  Natalia Bullon: And I just wanted to like.
• 24:19
  Natalia Bullon: This suffering can, can be that this life is full of suffering.
• 24:24
  Natalia Bullon: And then I found Buddhism and Buddhism says, you don't have to suffer that way you can be free, um, if you work in your own mind.
• 24:33
  Natalia Bullon: So that really was the, the, the piece of the cake that I want to try that if I have to work harder.
• 24:40
  Natalia Bullon: I have to study.
• 24:41
  Natalia Bullon: If I have to pray it, ha, I'll do it.
• 24:45
  Natalia Bullon: So I started doing it.
• 24:46
  Natalia Bullon: But it requires a lot, a lot
• 24:49
  Tracy Cartwright: of work.
• 24:50
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Repeated.
• 24:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 24:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Repetition,
• 24:56
  Natalia Bullon: repetition, study.
• 24:58
  Natalia Bullon: Not only meditation itself, as, as a practice, you have to study the philosophy of meditation.
• 25:03
  Natalia Bullon: You have to study why the way we, how we see things as we see.
• 25:10
  Natalia Bullon: We study that levels of consciousness, aggregates, scandals, how the human mind starts.
• 25:17
  Natalia Bullon: I see you and I understand the theory behind why I see Tracy as this way and not as a moth.
• 25:25
  Natalia Bullon: And, and by studying then the time, let's say in, in, in one year, I have a, a cancer diagnosis and then.
• 25:36
  Natalia Bullon: I can understand why I relate to my cancer in one particular way and it's making me miserable.
• 25:44
  Natalia Bullon: Or I can see my cancer as another, I can relate to an as, another way and suffer less.
• 25:52
  Natalia Bullon: Hmm.
• 25:53
  Natalia Bullon: So it's meditation is big.
• 25:58
  Natalia Bullon: It's not only the practice that our practice in the cushion.
• 26:02
  Natalia Bullon: Or walking or s chanting mattress.
• 26:05
  Natalia Bullon: It's also the study and also bringing the study into the practice.
• 26:10
  Natalia Bullon: And then you don't see any, no, you don't notice, I think until something happens, until you lost your job or your most beloved family pass away OA or they di or the doctor diagnosed something and then immediately something you false.
• 26:29
  Natalia Bullon: Falls apart, but doesn't look like it hurts.
• 26:32
  Natalia Bullon: It looks like liberation.
• 26:35
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 26:35
  Natalia Bullon: And then you know that you've, you're relating to reality in a more free way.
• 26:41
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that description.
• 26:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 26:43
  Natalia Bullon: Mm-hmm.
• 26:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 26:45
  Tracy Cartwright: How did you come into Constellations?
• 26:47
  Tracy Cartwright: When did you first meet at your first experience?
• 26:50
  Natalia Bullon: It was in 2013 when I was doing my coaching certification.
• 26:59
  Natalia Bullon: I was quite young, like 2023 I believe, and then was doing my coach coaching certification just because I, I, I wanted to, to suffer less, not because I wanted to become a coach.
• 27:14
  Natalia Bullon: And then one friend, very nice friend of mine, she told me, I heard that someone is coming from Spain to do a family constellation workshop.
• 27:24
  Natalia Bullon: And she told me something and I said, okay, let's go.
• 27:27
  Natalia Bullon: I didn't hesitate much and then I went it, it was Joanne Garriga and it's a famous who, sorry?
• 27:34
  Natalia Bullon: Joanne Garriga.
• 27:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Joanne?
• 27:37
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 27:38
  Natalia Bullon: Joanne Garriga is a very famous, constantly, um, facilitator in Spain and he works in, um, partners.
• 27:47
  Natalia Bullon: He specialized in partners family.
• 27:50
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 27:52
  Natalia Bullon: Anyways, I went and this workshop was like around 250 people in Wow.
• 27:59
  Natalia Bullon: In one auditor.
• 27:59
  Natalia Bullon: Auditor.
• 28:00
  Natalia Bullon: It was massive.
• 28:01
  Natalia Bullon: And of course only like what in a workshop or one day maybe.
• 28:06
  Natalia Bullon: Eight people constantly, you know, like, like we know, right?
• 28:09
  Natalia Bullon: Whoever raised a hand and then the, the facilitator in this case, Johan was like, okay, you Anyways, he said like, who wants to work?
• 28:17
  Natalia Bullon: And I raised my hand and then he said, okay, you, you work.
• 28:22
  Natalia Bullon: So I was in the hot seat in front of all these people I didn't know, and I never done constellation in my life.
• 28:30
  Natalia Bullon: Then he look at me, he's, he's very, very peculiar because he look at you and look at you for minutes, doesn't speak.
• 28:38
  Natalia Bullon: And then, and then he said something like, why are you so mad at your mother?
• 28:47
  Natalia Bullon: And then that hit, that really hit, and I start crying.
• 28:54
  Natalia Bullon: Without saying anything he told me, choose one person for your mother.
• 28:59
  Natalia Bullon: Choose one for you.
• 29:00
  Natalia Bullon: I put them and then they start the constellation, and the constellation lasted like 20 minutes was very fast, but I felt like there was a hole in my chest.
• 29:16
  Natalia Bullon: Something happened and he was precise.
• 29:21
  Natalia Bullon: He doesn't speak much.
• 29:23
  Natalia Bullon: And after that I said, I need to learn how to do this.
• 29:27
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, no way.
• 29:29
  Natalia Bullon: I need to learn.
• 29:30
  Natalia Bullon: And that's how, how I started just because of me, you know, I realized that there was so much stuff that I didn't process and I was, you know, playing nice, like, oh yeah, my life is good.
• 29:42
  Natalia Bullon: And, but
• 29:43
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah, it wasn't so that, that, it's quite a different approach, isn't it?
• 29:46
  Tracy Cartwright: Rather than, so he.
• 29:49
  Tracy Cartwright: He kind of found what it was that you were gonna work with rather than you putting that in there.
• 29:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Is that correct?
• 29:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 29:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 29:55
  Tracy Cartwright: That's a different approach.
• 29:57
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, not one that I have seen anyway.
• 30:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Usually you, uh, the client or the person seeker would have a, something that they wanted to work with.
• 30:07
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 30:08
  Natalia Bullon: Well, Johan also, my, my teacher, uh, in Chile, they work pretty much.
• 30:15
  Natalia Bullon: In the same way they look at you?
• 30:19
  Natalia Bullon: I would say that they feel, you know, they feel what you bring into your, I don't know, aura or something, and then they just go through.
• 30:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 30:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. And have you ever done that?
• 30:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Have, have you tr practiced that in your work or you, you are more traditional in your approach there?
• 30:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So, for example, for myself, um, I find that it's, I usually don't work with someone unless they've got something hot, not active.
• 30:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And I guess that sometimes, you know that approach, right?
• 30:59
  Tracy Cartwright: If you're going in into that approach and, and if it's, uh, it's active but you just don't realize it's active.
• 31:05
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe it's sitting there, but, um,
• 31:07
  Natalia Bullon: yeah.
• 31:09
  Natalia Bullon: Interesting.
• 31:10
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 31:10
  Natalia Bullon: I. I'm a mix of everything.
• 31:14
  Natalia Bullon: Sometimes people come and they just wanna share and that's completely their space, you know, and I can feel that there is some important things that need to be shared before the person starts to like settle and unpacking the real if, if we can say the real issue, but other times the person.
• 31:39
  Natalia Bullon: There is something that is quite evident and then I just contemplate for a while and see and take my time.
• 31:48
  Natalia Bullon: And I know it's not easy to digest this silence, uh, in the session.
• 31:55
  Natalia Bullon: And then sometimes I just do it.
• 31:57
  Natalia Bullon: And sometimes, yeah.
• 32:00
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, depends, you know, depends on how, how the, the, the space is hold.
• 32:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have any.
• 32:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Any examples or or memorable cases that you would feel comfortable to share, obviously without con um, divulging anyone's confidentiality or, yeah.
• 32:18
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause I know the listeners and the viewers are always interested in hearing a little bit more about constellations and examples are such a good, or even something, even one of your own.
• 32:27
  Tracy Cartwright: If, if that was something that you wanted to share or not, that's all right as well.
• 32:32
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 32:33
  Natalia Bullon: I had, well, a little bit of everything.
• 32:36
  Natalia Bullon: Sometimes people come to see me to ask for what is the right thing to do and whether it is like, um, should I divorce or should I, um, I don't know, stop paying for that.
• 32:56
  Natalia Bullon: Like, and then I try to let the person know that it's impossible for me to.
• 33:04
  Natalia Bullon: To provide an answer because I only have one version of what the person is telling me, but rather I try to talk to the person, what's the real problem?
• 33:17
  Natalia Bullon: And what I mean by real is what is the, um, where this suffering is coming from, from my inability, for instance, of relating to make a decision.
• 33:31
  Natalia Bullon: Because I'm living with a partner that I don't love, but I don't feel attracted, but I receive financial means and I feel financially stable and I don't wanna divorce because I feel like I will be really scared of being by myself.
• 33:51
  Natalia Bullon: And what if I don't find anyone in the future?
• 33:54
  Natalia Bullon: I think those.
• 33:56
  Natalia Bullon: The person comes with a real ask.
• 33:58
  Natalia Bullon: I wanna know if I should separate, but then I
• 34:02
  Tracy Cartwright: want you to tell me what to do.
• 34:04
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 34:04
  Natalia Bullon: But then for me, that's quite revealing because the person, little by little, starts articulating where is, where is the pain?
• 34:16
  Natalia Bullon: The pain is in my, let's say, my inability to realize that I.
• 34:25
  Natalia Bullon: Don't have any profession and I need to depend financially from my partner, and then I, I need to stay with him because of that.
• 34:37
  Natalia Bullon: Once a person articulates that, then maybe there's an opportunity or a possibility that opens about, okay, maybe I'll study now.
• 34:46
  Natalia Bullon: Maybe I'll, I know how to sew, or I may, I know how to cook and I'll start looking for something I can do by myself and not depend a hundred percent on my honor, but only when the person can actually say it.
• 34:59
  Natalia Bullon: You know?
• 35:00
  Natalia Bullon: It's like when, when a person.
• 35:02
  Natalia Bullon: I usually bring this, um, to the session as well.
• 35:06
  Natalia Bullon: If the alcoholic does not realize it's alcoholic, there is no treatment.
• 35:10
  Natalia Bullon: But when the person says I'm alcoholic, then there is maybe one chance that can be healed.
• 35:18
  Natalia Bullon: And that's kind of pretty much what, what it I find quite often in, in whether.
• 35:24
  Natalia Bullon: To, I can tell the right decision what to say to, uh, what, how to proceed in a conflict.
• 35:32
  Natalia Bullon: Should I just continue with my life or take care of my mom?
• 35:36
  Natalia Bullon: It seems like, um, you know, very difficult for, to want to, to elaborate on that, but I take them to really look at, for instance, if one person.
• 35:50
  Natalia Bullon: It's doesn't want to make the decision of taking care of mom or living her, uh, her own, his own life.
• 35:57
  Natalia Bullon: Then, you know, at some point be honest and say, look, I don't wanna take care of my mom because she was not a good mom for me.
• 36:09
  Natalia Bullon: And just saying that brings the space to something different.
• 36:13
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:14
  Tracy Cartwright: That allows a breath out a bit of expansion.
• 36:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 36:17
  Tracy Cartwright: I. Yeah, I finding that more and more the more you just speak what's there, right?
• 36:23
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause if you hold onto it right, it becomes heavy.
• 36:26
  Tracy Cartwright: It's quite dense and it's, and, and it is also contraction and just being able to speak it allows obviously clear you're clearing some space.
• 36:39
  Tracy Cartwright: And even if there's no action upon it, as far as.
• 36:44
  Tracy Cartwright: If you were to say, for example, like you were just saying about, you know, looking after your mom, I don't wanna look after mom then being able to say that, speak my truth.
• 36:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 36:56
  Tracy Cartwright: She wasn't a good mom.
• 36:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Whatever that is for that person.
• 36:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, and then from there they can find a more of a balanced platform, right?
• 37:05
  Tracy Cartwright: To start from or to move towards.
• 37:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 37:09
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, absolutely.
• 37:10
  Natalia Bullon: I think the problem.
• 37:13
  Natalia Bullon: Perhaps is that we are so judgmental with ourselves.
• 37:18
  Natalia Bullon: Mm. Um, and sometimes we find this nonjudgmental in a person, in a friend, in a family member.
• 37:27
  Natalia Bullon: But it really has to start with us, with us looking at, okay, Natalia, if I were this person, why I feel so angry that I have to take care of someone that I. You know, give, gave me life because I, whatever reason I'm resentful, I'm full of anger.
• 37:49
  Natalia Bullon: She did that, she did that, whatever.
• 37:53
  Natalia Bullon: And just be with that uncomfortable feeling.
• 37:58
  Natalia Bullon: And I think that's the other part of what we were talking about, meditation.
• 38:04
  Natalia Bullon: Being with what it is, as it is without manipulating Oh yeah.
• 38:09
  Natalia Bullon: But, but you know, she gave me like, I should be a good talk, but Yeah.
• 38:14
  Natalia Bullon: But I should feel the other way.
• 38:16
  Natalia Bullon: It's like, just be for a moment without trying to grasp or elaborate.
• 38:23
  Natalia Bullon: Just be, and it's incredible how much if we just, if we try to practice, just be with what it is.
• 38:33
  Natalia Bullon: Then how this informs our life.
• 38:36
  Natalia Bullon: And then we start, we start living life doesn't, doesn't mean that we don't make decision, but we, we see things more clearly.
• 38:48
  Tracy Cartwright: It just allows us maybe to even let go of some of those threads that we've held onto for such a long time.
• 38:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 38:59
  Tracy Cartwright: And rewrite some of that story, some of those childhood wounds or, and even in a way, when we can speak the truth, it allows us to step aside.
• 39:07
  Tracy Cartwright: This is my experience, allows us to step aside and to be able to see from another angle and even sometimes.
• 39:18
  Tracy Cartwright: If we're so, um, I used to say it's my Scottish roots, that they're, I'm stubborn, it's my Scottish roots.
• 39:24
  Tracy Cartwright: But stepping aside from that and being able to see others' perspectives, I think in it as well, probably a little bit off the trail of what you were saying, but that's where I, that's where it landed for me.
• 39:37
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 39:38
  Natalia Bullon: Uh, um, the only thing I would add is that in Constellation I, the work of, uh, facilitate how I see the work of a facilitator in a session has a knowledge, um, related component of, okay, about the technique, blah, blah, blah.
• 39:58
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, that's one thing.
• 40:00
  Natalia Bullon: But then another important component is.
• 40:05
  Natalia Bullon: This non-judgmental field that vibrates in very invisible way.
• 40:13
  Natalia Bullon: And um, in Buddhism, we talk about all this stuff, energy, vibrations, blah.
• 40:20
  Natalia Bullon: So if, let's say that the facilitator has this skill and have worked enough within themselves to, as you mentioned, nonjudgmental, then there might be some like resonance.
• 40:35
  Natalia Bullon: That is when the person in front is also talking, then it might be a possibility that the person realize, yeah, this is happening to me and there is nothing I should blame and I can blame.
• 40:50
  Natalia Bullon: And that brings ease and, and you know, harmony.
• 40:53
  Natalia Bullon: So that's, I would say that great part of the work.
• 40:57
  Natalia Bullon: Um.
• 40:59
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, the family constellation approach, then the, the maturity of the client or the person at that particular moment.
• 41:07
  Natalia Bullon: But then the, the facilitator, energy vibration, and I say the mind, mind capacity to hold what we tolerate in, in, in sessions holding the space.
• 41:20
  Natalia Bullon: And, and then once the space is closed.
• 41:26
  Natalia Bullon: I always tell people now is the family constellation is where it starts because now you are out and yeah, that's it.
• 41:35
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, ideally the person opens in, family constellation.
• 41:40
  Natalia Bullon: There is so much in, and then once it's off and the person feels an instant relief, but hopefully it will, you know, permeate weeks of work and that can.
• 41:56
  Natalia Bullon: Influence the person might day by day and then kind of start building more things.
• 42:01
  Natalia Bullon: So it's a magic, it's very, um, you know, it's very hard to explain, but that's how I, I feel it works in a way
• 42:13
  Tracy Cartwright: when you are doing one-on-ones.
• 42:15
  Tracy Cartwright: How so?
• 42:16
  Tracy Cartwright: I use, I've got these, um, vinyl discs.
• 42:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Things that I get people to stand on, or sometimes we just use objects around the room.
• 42:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, particularly if I'm doing a one-on-one online.
• 42:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, they haven't got any vinyl discs, so I'll just invite 'em to choose anything that they have and, and that's gonna be our representatives.
• 42:36
  Tracy Cartwright: What do you use?
• 42:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have anything in particular?
• 42:39
  Natalia Bullon: Uh, well I use same objects and I use tissues, um, like what you call it, like those footprints.
• 42:48
  Natalia Bullon: Oh yeah, footprints.
• 42:50
  Natalia Bullon: But I use this so people come and you know, step on those tissues.
• 42:56
  Natalia Bullon: Also, when it's online, I take the person to create a family constellation kind of diagram.
• 43:03
  Natalia Bullon: I. In their own minds.
• 43:05
  Natalia Bullon: And then they have a book and then they diagram.
• 43:08
  Natalia Bullon: And from that I take that diagram into, into MySpace, recreate that here.
• 43:15
  Natalia Bullon: Sometimes I have my own board as well, so I show them and they choose different objects.
• 43:22
  Natalia Bullon: Depends on, on how things are.
• 43:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, there's so many different ways we can do it.
• 43:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Hey, that's a fascinating thing about this work.
• 43:31
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, sometimes I, I felt as well that there is no need to use objects.
• 43:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And that's why, that's the beauty of the work, right?
• 43:40
  Tracy Cartwright: So unique, so different.
• 43:42
  Tracy Cartwright: And it would never be, it's, it's not like a, a set, uh, how would you call it?
• 43:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Like a set framework that you do this step, this step, this step, this step.
• 43:51
  Tracy Cartwright: It's about, it's, it's unique to each individual that comes and we have a framework that we work with in the larger system, and from that we pull what is needed.
• 44:00
  Tracy Cartwright: For them at the time, rather than saying you have to go A, B, C, D, E to get to the point that you're wanting to get to.
• 44:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Whereas in Constellations it's more like, we'll just start here and we'll see what unfolds and we can take this step or we can take this step and it doesn't it.
• 44:17
  Tracy Cartwright: We'll just see what unfolds.
• 44:19
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 44:19
  Natalia Bullon: I think if, if you ask me like.
• 44:23
  Natalia Bullon: I was thinking about what you asked different scenarios when people come and see me must be because of also the person who I am.
• 44:31
  Natalia Bullon: People usually come because, I don't know.
• 44:33
  Natalia Bullon: I had a person that she had a diagnose and she didn't want to take medicines because she felt like she wanted to, um, just be natural.
• 44:42
  Natalia Bullon: Let's say.
• 44:43
  Natalia Bullon: And it's funny because I'm a pharmacist, so it is like, hmm.
• 44:49
  Natalia Bullon: Um, and I. Usually try to see, and I've been also exploring, I think quite a lot of time in alternative approaches such as family consolation or coaching, or things that work with the way we interpret reality.
• 45:08
  Natalia Bullon: But at the same time, I have a form of background in using substances to relieve sym symptoms.
• 45:14
  Natalia Bullon: Not really to, to, you know, to cure, but to help the person to regain balance and harmony.
• 45:21
  Natalia Bullon: So it is like, the world for me is quite separated, but what I try to do when I see, um, people, is to bring those together.
• 45:32
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, by, let's say the person is, has a diagnose or even depression and they don't wanna take the pills because of pharmaceuticals and they are bad and whatever, and there is a conspiracy, whatever they wanna say.
• 45:46
  Natalia Bullon: But for me it's like, why?
• 45:49
  Natalia Bullon: What is the reason behind this thinking and why reading and investigating enough, of course, but why not to leave?
• 46:01
  Natalia Bullon: To allow the body to regain certain stability, whether it's in a cancer diagnose or whatever.
• 46:08
  Natalia Bullon: And then once the body has regulated enough, then you can be completely natural.
• 46:14
  Natalia Bullon: But sometimes it takes, takes a lot of time.
• 46:18
  Natalia Bullon: Body to the body to regulate to a certain level so it can keep, you know, healing.
• 46:25
  Natalia Bullon: Um, so it's very black and white.
• 46:27
  Natalia Bullon: What I, what it comes to me and yeah.
• 46:30
  Natalia Bullon: Seems like okay, not all the medicines are bad, but they help but other extreme that only believe in that only medicines will cure.
• 46:40
  Natalia Bullon: That's also a problem, you know?
• 46:41
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 46:42
  Natalia Bullon: Because we are not just our symptoms, we are.
• 46:47
  Natalia Bullon: Our spirit or soul or whatever the person believes.
• 46:51
  Natalia Bullon: And then our mind, how we interpret our education.
• 46:54
  Natalia Bullon: Parents trauma and the traumas are, are, you know, in our body, in our psyche.
• 47:02
  Natalia Bullon: It's not one thing or the other.
• 47:05
  Natalia Bullon: It
• 47:05
  Tracy Cartwright: is both.
• 47:07
  Tracy Cartwright: All many.
• 47:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 47:08
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 47:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 47:10
  Tracy Cartwright: And finding that balance right.
• 47:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, if you lean too much one way.
• 47:17
  Tracy Cartwright: It's not always good for you.
• 47:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 47:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Finding the balance of moderation of all things in life.
• 47:24
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 47:25
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 47:25
  Natalia Bullon: I think that's a, that's the right word.
• 47:27
  Natalia Bullon: I like that word.
• 47:28
  Natalia Bullon: Like moderation and mod modulation, like regulation, like, and that really depends on the person.
• 47:38
  Natalia Bullon: Mm-hmm.
• 47:39
  Natalia Bullon: And how much can we really navigate different streams?
• 47:44
  Natalia Bullon: Natural naturopathy, let's say, or allopathy and I knowing and really checking, is this helping me?
• 47:54
  Natalia Bullon: If yes, yes, keep going.
• 47:55
  Natalia Bullon: But if not, then okay, I need to question that because it's not helping.
• 48:01
  Natalia Bullon: You know?
• 48:01
  Natalia Bullon: And then look until, look until you find like, right, this making me feel better.
• 48:08
  Tracy Cartwright: I agree with you.
• 48:09
  Tracy Cartwright: I agree with you.
• 48:10
  Tracy Cartwright: If someone wanted to get hold of you and uh, book a session with you, how would they find you?
• 48:16
  Natalia Bullon: So if you put my name Natalia Boon in Google, you'll find Natalia Boon Constellations and Meditation, and they can book the session online.
• 48:27
  Natalia Bullon: And I have to split my life between my academic.
• 48:31
  Natalia Bullon: Sciencey life and family constellations.
• 48:34
  Natalia Bullon: So, um, I always have sessions available, but they are limited.
• 48:38
  Natalia Bullon: And then I do family constellations workshops every month, every two months, depending on how, um, much time available, I have to be honest.
• 48:49
  Natalia Bullon: Um, but you can find everything online.
• 48:51
  Natalia Bullon: There is a lot of, um, I used to, you know, create a lot of content, um, online and.
• 48:57
  Natalia Bullon: Bombarding social media with that?
• 48:59
  Natalia Bullon: Not anymore.
• 49:00
  Natalia Bullon: I don't have much time, but yeah.
• 49:02
  Natalia Bullon: And if the person feels that I want to, you know, I always recommend talk to me beforehand and maybe I. Get to know me.
• 49:12
  Natalia Bullon: Come to a session.
• 49:13
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 49:13
  Natalia Bullon: See how it works and doesn't, maybe it's, I'm not the person for you.
• 49:19
  Natalia Bullon: Maybe you must go with Tracy or with Joe because you feel, you know, more safe in a way, and, and the person has to do what the person feels like safer to open up in a way.
• 49:32
  Natalia Bullon: Mm mm
• 49:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 49:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 49:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Where, and you've got one coming up.
• 49:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, I do
• 49:41
  Natalia Bullon: have on the 12th of April, family Constellation workshop in, that's in English, and then on the 26th in Spanish, and then on, that's in April.
• 49:54
  Natalia Bullon: Then I have one in May, but we are gonna, I just opened it because I'm gonna open a family constellation, worships.
• 50:03
  Natalia Bullon: On dreams.
• 50:05
  Natalia Bullon: Ooh.
• 50:05
  Natalia Bullon: You know, that we, we always have repetitive dreams and, well, I don't know everyone, but I do.
• 50:12
  Natalia Bullon: And, and they have a meaning, you know, and, and why not to bring them in and do our work in family constellations to know, get to know what it means.
• 50:23
  Natalia Bullon: Wow.
• 50:24
  Natalia Bullon: When's that?
• 50:26
  Natalia Bullon: But that's in Spanish.
• 50:27
  Natalia Bullon: That's the last, um,
• 50:29
  Tracy Cartwright: oh, so I've got like a month to learn Spanish.
• 50:33
  Natalia Bullon: No, but I can repeat it.
• 50:34
  Natalia Bullon: I mean, I usually, like, I talk Spanish, so people come to me mostly because they speak Spanish.
• 50:41
  Natalia Bullon: Imagine that you have to talk about all this in another language is very difficult.
• 50:49
  Natalia Bullon: It's a lot of work.
• 50:50
  Natalia Bullon: So people come to me because they speak Spanish, but some people.
• 50:55
  Natalia Bullon: Usually like, when are you gonna do in English?
• 50:58
  Natalia Bullon: And then I open every now and then in English.
• 51:01
  Natalia Bullon: But this one I'll see how is, how it goes.
• 51:03
  Natalia Bullon: And if things go well, maybe in June I open, I open one in English.
• 51:09
  Tracy Cartwright: So is that based around like what, so you would put the dream in as the, as the parts of the That's fascinating.
• 51:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Natalia.
• 51:18
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that.
• 51:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I met a guy once who did, when in his training his teacher had said that they had to come up with an idea for an exercise and to lead into constellations.
• 51:31
  Tracy Cartwright: And he said, choose your favorite movie.
• 51:34
  Tracy Cartwright: What's the movie that really stands out to you and why?
• 51:38
  Tracy Cartwright: What were the characters and why?
• 51:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I know, and it was really fascinating'cause I did a little, just, we had a little play with it and, uh, him and I, and it was like, wow, what came from that?
• 51:50
  Tracy Cartwright: There's only a couple of characters.
• 51:51
  Tracy Cartwright: He said, you know, like for example, um, one of the people in the, in his class had really loved the movie Black Beauty.
• 51:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Why?
• 51:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh.
• 51:59
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause there was a horse and it was all about freedom and this young teenage girl and, you know, so it was really And who do you feel like you are in that?
• 52:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, oh, well I was a bit of a her and I was a bit of the horse and, you know, so like the whole thing came out.
• 52:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm really interested to know a bit more about the dreams.
• 52:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah,
• 52:17
  Natalia Bullon: yeah, yeah.
• 52:17
  Natalia Bullon: Well, I, I might open one.
• 52:20
  Natalia Bullon: Um, you know, I usually open like general, like, like you do, or Joe as well, like family consideration worship, right?
• 52:26
  Natalia Bullon: So anyone comes with their own s but lately I've been having a lot of repetitive dreams, and then I thought, like, definitely, I kind of, kind of know what they might mean, but I'll also, I'm interested in like, okay, let's see.
• 52:44
  Natalia Bullon: Um, mm-hmm.
• 52:45
  Natalia Bullon: But it's all about, and I used
• 52:48
  Tracy Cartwright: to, I used to dream a lot and I haven't a lot recently, oh, there's a couple of things that I used to dream repetitively, but one of them was being in a multis storied house with lots and lots and lots of rooms and I was always looking for a safe space for myself and my sister that I, that whenever I found another, a house that was, think I could bring my sister in and find room for her and her children and you know, it was always.
• 53:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Was really fascinating and I, I have an idea what that's from, but that was a repetitive dream.
• 53:20
  Tracy Cartwright: And then I had used to have toilet dreams.
• 53:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Those were other ones.
• 53:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Uh, what was like, I just like letting go of lots of shit.
• 53:27
  Natalia Bullon: Wow.
• 53:27
  Natalia Bullon: You know, that that what you said about the multi-story place really give me, um, goosebumps.
• 53:34
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah, that would be nice.
• 53:35
  Natalia Bullon: You know, nice to, to see how, how it, it shows.
• 53:39
  Natalia Bullon: I had a dream.
• 53:42
  Natalia Bullon: One of them is.
• 53:43
  Natalia Bullon: I'm in a train and I'm not driving.
• 53:47
  Natalia Bullon: There is one driver and, and, and we are gonna hit like, uh, the end of the Roche and it's gonna be split in two, in two ways.
• 53:58
  Natalia Bullon: And then he says, which, which way do you wanna take and which path?
• 54:05
  Natalia Bullon: And he said something about that way, something about the other way.
• 54:08
  Natalia Bullon: Which one?
• 54:09
  Natalia Bullon: You choose, and I see I'm approximating the end and we are gonna hit, and I'm unable to decide, you know?
• 54:17
  Natalia Bullon: And so that really is like, every time I wake up it's like, oh my God, I'm feeling so anxious.
• 54:22
  Natalia Bullon: And, and then another dream has to do with the, you know, like, I mean, it is gonna sound very gross, but in the toilet, inability to hold, to hold things and.
• 54:37
  Natalia Bullon: That an anxiety like shame and everything that comes with that episode is like unbearable.
• 54:45
  Natalia Bullon: And, and I, I wake up like, you know, oh my God, it is so powerful that, um, inability to hold it.
• 54:54
  Natalia Bullon: Mm-hmm.
• 54:54
  Natalia Bullon: That and yeah.
• 54:56
  Natalia Bullon: So that's ma one of two of many really.
• 55:00
  Tracy Cartwright: I wonder how many listeners have toilet dreams, because I was just saying I have toilet dreams as well, and often it's like going in there and overflowing, like there's just so much stuff to let go of and um, and then finding toilets in the oddest places.
• 55:14
  Tracy Cartwright: It just feels like it's, it's a, feels like it's an analogy for letting go of the layers and, and stuff.
• 55:21
  Tracy Cartwright: So it would be fascinating.
• 55:23
  Tracy Cartwright: So if you're listening to this, could you please, uh, comment or if you feel comfortable, we'd love to, um, know just.
• 55:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Let us know.
• 55:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 55:34
  Tracy Cartwright: You have them as well.
• 55:34
  Tracy Cartwright: You don't have to go into detail, but just for curiosity, uh, how many other people have toilet dreams?
• 55:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Because I actually thought I was probably the only one and
• 55:47
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 55:47
  Natalia Bullon: So good to know.
• 55:48
  Tracy Cartwright: You do too.
• 55:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 55:49
  Natalia Bullon: No, and they are very intense
• 55:52
  Tracy Cartwright: because it's not the sort of thing you talk about Right.
• 55:54
  Tracy Cartwright: With your friends.
• 55:55
  Tracy Cartwright: How are you?
• 55:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 55:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Good.
• 55:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Had another toilet drain.
• 55:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh.
• 56:07
  Tracy Cartwright: All right.
• 56:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I look forward to hearing about that.
• 56:09
  Tracy Cartwright: And you, will you share it with me so I can share it on my pages as well?
• 56:13
  Natalia Bullon: Yeah.
• 56:13
  Natalia Bullon: Thank you Tracy.
• 56:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I love sharing other people's stuff.
• 56:16
  Tracy Cartwright: I think it's really important.
• 56:17
  Tracy Cartwright: I think there's, there's so much of this work is needed and you know, I am so busy doing lots of other things as well, that sharing it so that other people can.
• 56:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Find their way to the facilitator that works for them.
• 56:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 56:35
  Natalia Bullon: yeah, such a, I mean, I really, really admire, um, so much work that you've done with, with Alonga, all the team in the consolation intensive, you know, and getting together because that really boost.
• 56:51
  Natalia Bullon: Or for everyone, and for everyone that wants to do family constellation work, but also to us that we do random stuff all over the place.
• 57:03
  Natalia Bullon: So absolutely grateful for even this, you know, in the time you take, I used to do like podcasts in the past, but just talking my cell phone, that, which is easier, right?
• 57:13
  Natalia Bullon: But then you have to edit and then you have to.
• 57:16
  Natalia Bullon: Putting social media.
• 57:17
  Natalia Bullon: There's a lot of work, you know, and, and definitely tremendously grateful for, um, sharing, I think, um, sharing your skills.
• 57:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 57:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I was doing a lot on my own, but now I've got some, I. Team support as well, which is really helpful and it gets a lot more done.
• 57:36
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause sometimes my head gets a bit busy.
• 57:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Maybe that's why I have so many toilet dreams.
• 57:39
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm letting go of some stuff.
• 57:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, need to meditate a bit more anyway.
• 57:47
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so much because I know that you are a busy person as well, and, uh, you do amazing things in this world, so really grateful for you to take this time and look forward to, yeah, seeing what else is possible to be created and, and what else you've got to share coming up.
• 58:05
  Natalia Bullon: Thank you.
• 58:05
  Natalia Bullon: Thanks so much.
• 58:06
  Natalia Bullon: Thank you everyone listening this podcast and wishing you all the best for everything that comes in your future.
• 58:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 58:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 58:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you With this episode, you'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 58:25
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 58:38
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.