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The Cry of Merlin: A Jungian Approach to the Wizard · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: That's what Merlin brings. I mean, this was, gosh, how
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: many centuries before Jung ever came into light. But the
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: whole story of Merlin, even as the creator of the
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: round table and the instigator of the quest for the
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Holy Grail, is all about going into the dark, down.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: It gets to the darkness that most of us ignore
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: in our lives.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
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  Speaker 2: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:57
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst on Cape Cod.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: Joining us on the podcast today is our dear friend,
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  Speaker 3: Doug Tyler. Doug trained with us at the Interregional. In fact,
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: he and I served as candidate reps together of very
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: fond memory that I have from training.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: And.
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  Speaker 3: Doug is a training analyst with the Interregional Society of
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: Union Analysts, and he teaches and supervises candidates at the
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  Speaker 3: Memphis Atlanta Seminar, where I am sure he is much appreciated.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Doug has a special interest in today's topic, which is Merlin.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: So the myths around Merlin are very deep and varied
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  Speaker 3: and complex. Merlin has been sort of extant in the
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  Speaker 3: culture for a long, long time. He continues to fascinate
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  Speaker 3: us today. He is, of course, an example of the
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  Speaker 3: archetypal wise old man, but his iconography and mythology, as
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: I said, is very particular, contains a lot of wisdom,
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  Speaker 3: I think, in particular for this cultural moment. So I
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  Speaker 3: hope we can dig into some of that today.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Lisa.
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  Speaker 3: So maybe we just start, Doug, with you just telling
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: us a little bit of, I know there are several
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: different sort of source stories for the story of Merlin.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe you can just kind of summarize it for us.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there are two main kind of creation stories of
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  Speaker 1: the character Merlin in history, which actually Marie-Louise von Franz
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: and Emma Young actually did. cover in their book on
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: the grail legend. The one that's most common was produced
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: in the 12th century around 1134 by Geoffrey of Monmouth
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  Speaker 1: in a book he wrote called The Kings of England.
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  Speaker 1: And in it, basically, he outlines this young boy who
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  Speaker 1: is a fatherless boy from the countryside. And at the time,
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  Speaker 1: there is a usurper in the British throne. Vertigin is
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  Speaker 1: his name, or Vorsigin. And anyway, the mages of that time,
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  Speaker 1: he builds a castle wall, tall tower, because he's threatened
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  Speaker 1: by power of others, if that may sound familiar these days.
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  Speaker 1: And he builds it in order to create this, and
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  Speaker 1: you think of a tower as a rather tall and
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: heavy structure, but it continues to collapse every time he
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  Speaker 1: builds it up. So the mages all gather in this
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  Speaker 1: convocation around this problem and they decide you must insert
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  Speaker 1: the blood of a fatherless boy into the border and
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  Speaker 1: that that will... solve this well Merlin who was in
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  Speaker 1: Wales at the time as a seven-year-old boy and I'll
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  Speaker 1: get to the part where he knows what this is
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  Speaker 1: all going to happen allows himself to be captured assures
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  Speaker 1: his mother at the time that he will not be
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  Speaker 1: killed and he's brought to the king and uses his
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  Speaker 1: wonderful storytelling to really convince the king which is true
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  Speaker 1: that the problem is not in the mortar but it's
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  Speaker 1: in It lies underground, which is a direct reference, of course,
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  Speaker 1: to the unconscious. And deep underground is a pool, and
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  Speaker 1: in this pool is a huge rock, and under the
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  Speaker 1: rock are two dragons. And every time you try to
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  Speaker 1: build this tower on top of this pool, they get pressurized,
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  Speaker 1: and they start wrestling, and that's what causes the tower
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  Speaker 1: to tumble. Anyway, there goes this excavation. These dragons are... discovered,
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  Speaker 1: and prophecy ensues, so much so that the king is
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  Speaker 1: overthrown by the heirs of the king whom he overthrew.
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  Speaker 1: In the next century, about 70 years later, a French
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  Speaker 1: Burgundian knight, Robert de Boron, actually came up with a
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  Speaker 1: creation story of Merlin's birth. And you have to remember,
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  Speaker 1: it's very important that he was a very devout Christian
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  Speaker 1: at the time, And he saw Merlin as a kind
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  Speaker 1: of antichrist figure. And his version is that, quickly, that
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  Speaker 1: there is this kind of meeting of demons, or really
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  Speaker 1: demons between the earth and the sky, and they're called
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  Speaker 1: incubus and succubus anyway. One male demon was chosen to
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  Speaker 1: impregnate a pure virgin woman and very much like the
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  Speaker 1: Christ story.
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  Speaker 3: I was going to say, hmm, that sounds familiar.
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  Speaker 5: Right.
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  Speaker 1: You can tell where he got the story. And, but,
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  Speaker 1: but he will be then, but the father will not
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  Speaker 1: be that of God, but of, of the demonic. And, oh,
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  Speaker 1: and that's, it reads like a story, it reads like
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  Speaker 1: episodes out of the book of Job. I mean, he
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  Speaker 1: kills her family, creates all kinds of problems for her
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  Speaker 1: in order that she will forget either to cross herself
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  Speaker 1: or light a candle at night. Because if she doesn't
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  Speaker 1: do either one of those two, which is to drive
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  Speaker 1: off the evil forces, then she is susceptible. And one
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  Speaker 1: night she, in fact, does forget that. She's impregnated, wakes
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  Speaker 1: up thinking to herself, I am not the maiden I
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  Speaker 1: was before I went to sleep. And she eventually gives birth. Actually,
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  Speaker 1: she first immediately seeks out her priest. and she vows
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  Speaker 1: to be wedded to the church thereafter, and her sins
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  Speaker 1: are dismissed anyway. But, of course, she can't hide her pregnancy.
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  Speaker 1: The pregnancy is discovered, and she's thrown into prison. And
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  Speaker 1: at the birth of the child, Merlin is born. She
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  Speaker 1: named Merlin after her father, which gives it a kind
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  Speaker 1: of divinity secondhand. because she was so devout. Anyway, so
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  Speaker 1: he's born, and then all of these stories then ensue,
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  Speaker 1: the first of which is, interestingly, that he saves his
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  Speaker 1: mother from being killed because she clearly had a relationship
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: outside of marriage. And a really interesting story to read
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  Speaker 1: is that Merlin is aware, first of all, of all
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  Speaker 1: things future because of the piety of his mother. he
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  Speaker 1: is also aware of all things past because of that
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  Speaker 1: bequeathed to him by his father. So Merlin becomes a
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  Speaker 1: character that is holding exquisitely the opposites of light and dark.
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  Speaker 1: So that's the main. There's another creation story of Merlin
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  Speaker 1: that takes place in Rhondda, which is now southern Scotland,
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  Speaker 1: and he comes out of the wild after And that's
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  Speaker 1: a whole other story. But the main one we would
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  Speaker 1: focus on would be this one.
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  Speaker 3: Those are just incredible stories just out of the gate. And,
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: you know, I didn't know those before becoming familiar with
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  Speaker 3: your work, even though I thought I knew a little
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  Speaker 3: bit about Merlin, but super fascinating. And the one thing
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  Speaker 3: I love about the story about the towers and the
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  Speaker 3: kind of underground lake is this sort of egoic desire
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  Speaker 3: to go up.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, right.
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  Speaker 3: And how that is undermined, shall we say, by forces
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  Speaker 3: in the unconscious. And actually, the job is to go
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  Speaker 3: in and down.
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  Speaker 1: You have to go down. Yeah. That's what Merlin brings.
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  Speaker 1: It is so... I mean, this was, gosh, how many
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  Speaker 1: centuries before Jung ever came into light. But the whole
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: story of Merlin... even as the creator of the round
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: table and the instigator of the quest for the Holy Grail,
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  Speaker 1: at least from a Christianized version, is all about going
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: into the dark, down. It gets to the darkness that
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: most of us ignore in our lives.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And that was very ignored during that time. So the
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  Speaker 4: story of Merlin... serves a kind of compensatory function to
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  Speaker 4: an age that was very steeped in Christianity. you know,
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  Speaker 4: much as alchemy did.
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  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 4: Here's this other story about going down, dragons, water, darkness,
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  Speaker 4: and of course Merlin's parentage is not without its problems
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  Speaker 4: as well.
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  Speaker 1: Well, and I guess, yes, probably all of us could
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  Speaker 1: say that in some way. But what we see in
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  Speaker 1: that is his reconciliation of these energies by holding both
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  Speaker 1: of them.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And like any, either human being or archetypal energy matures
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  Speaker 1: over time. Mm-hmm.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Jung said of alchemy that the Christian
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  Speaker 3: worldview had sort of withdrawn spirit from matter, and that
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  Speaker 3: alchemy was a compensation for that. And it strikes me,
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: I had that same thought, Deb, as I was kind
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  Speaker 3: of going through this material, is, oh, this is compensatory
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  Speaker 3: to the Christian worldview in much the same way that
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  Speaker 3: alchemy is.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, you beat me to it. Yes, this is very.
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  Speaker 1: Merlin could be seen as one of the early alchemists,
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  Speaker 1: but how the character has an inner energy, not just
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  Speaker 1: as a character in history. He is actually thought to
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  Speaker 1: have been a character that was alive in the sixth century.
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  Speaker 4: Wow.
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  Speaker 1: Gosh. Arthur didn't come until later, so the stories get conflated.
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  Speaker 1: But foremost, it is the nature of the dark that
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  Speaker 1: we that we ignore to our peril, that interrupts our
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  Speaker 1: capacity to be whole or to become whole.
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  Speaker 3: Well, so that's like the origin story of Merlin. What
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  Speaker 3: generally happens next in the tale?
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  Speaker 1: In the tale, after that the king of England, Vortigern,
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  Speaker 1: is overcome or overthrown by You can think of Vortiga, actually,
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  Speaker 1: if you're familiar with his language or those who are listening,
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  Speaker 1: as a kind of cultural complex. He's the usurper of
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  Speaker 1: the kingdom, so to speak, of consciousness. So he's overthrown
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  Speaker 1: and then... After that, there's this celebration of the new king.
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  Speaker 1: There were two brothers that came back. One was actually
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  Speaker 1: killed in battle, Uther, and then Pendragon, his brother, became king,
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  Speaker 1: who then took on the name Uther Pendragon, and at
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  Speaker 1: a celebratory kind of party, he meets the wife of
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  Speaker 1: this baron and wants her for his wife. It's kind
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  Speaker 1: of too bad she's married to somebody else.
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  Speaker 6: So.
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  Speaker 1: But he's set on that. And Merlin, in a kind
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  Speaker 1: of interesting display of, I guess what we might say
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  Speaker 1: is a kind of unconsciousness to his own darkness, goes
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  Speaker 1: along with this. And he has the power of shapeshifting
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  Speaker 1: and of creating transformation of images. And so he turns
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  Speaker 1: the king into the image of this woman's husband. So
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  Speaker 1: she thinks she's with her husband.
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  Speaker 3: Ah, that tactic, tried and true in mythology.
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  Speaker 1: Indeed it is. And so then they produce a son,
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  Speaker 1: but the requirement, anyway, of Merlin going along with this
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  Speaker 1: is that once your son is born, you must give
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  Speaker 1: him over to me. And he does that, and Merlin
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  Speaker 1: gives the son to another knight who has a son
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  Speaker 1: that same age, and he raises them. Eventually, Rutherford Pendragon
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  Speaker 1: dies without... an heir, and that's where you get the
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  Speaker 1: story of the sword and the stone. And so the
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  Speaker 1: only person who would be heir to the throne would
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  Speaker 1: pull the sword out of a stone, and that happens
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  Speaker 1: to be Arthur, who had a different name at that time.
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  Speaker 1: And in fact, he had to do it twice, you know,
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  Speaker 1: to kind of prove himself. And so that convinces everyone
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  Speaker 1: that Arthur is the true king to follow. And then
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  Speaker 1: Merlin comes to be in service to his kingdom.
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  Speaker 3: So Merlin is really like the kingmaker.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And that's a sort of mythologem. And of course, we
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: see that also in The Lord of the Rings.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: Gandalf is the kingmaker who knows who the true king
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  Speaker 3: is and who kind of shepherds him along the path
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  Speaker 3: to his reclaiming his rightful position. I'm thinking about in
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: the The War of the Roses, Warwick plays that role,
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  Speaker 3: although he's sort of a baddie, but he's kind of
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  Speaker 3: the kingmaker. Not really someone I would think of as
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  Speaker 3: a wise old man, but still that mythologem of being
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  Speaker 3: the one who makes come to pass what must come
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  Speaker 3: to pass. I mean, is that a little bit like
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: John the Baptist as well? Am I out on a
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  Speaker 3: limb there?
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  Speaker 1: In a sense, yes.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: In a sense, I see the wise old man differently,
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  Speaker 1: I think, than probably most. If we speak of Merlin
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  Speaker 1: as an image of the wise old man, and he
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: was dumbed down by Disney, as many fairy tales are,
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  Speaker 1: but still carries this kind of magical power. But wisdom,
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  Speaker 1: in my estimation, really doesn't come from his experience. He
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: has bequeathed it. It comes from his capacity to hold opposites.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because that is what is creative. As we know, as Jungians,
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  Speaker 1: we really hold in very deep belief the capacity for
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: any of us to hold opposites in order that something
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  Speaker 1: new can be born from it. Well, the wisdom is
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  Speaker 1: that which is born from that tension.
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  Speaker 3: And this union between... Uther and his, you know, consort
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  Speaker 3: that Merlin potentiates is kind of dark and shady and shadowy,
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  Speaker 3: much like Merlin's own parentage.
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  Speaker 1: It is.
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  Speaker 6: It is.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. So I get what you're saying there.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And that's the part that I want to stay here
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  Speaker 4: for a minute. Because that's part of the story, that
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  Speaker 4: it is okay... if you are a Merlin figure, to transgress,
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  Speaker 4: to arrange this illicit liaison, because Merlin knows, you know,
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  Speaker 4: what will ensue, and this is what must come to pass.
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  Speaker 4: And yet we frown on all of this kind of thing.
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  Speaker 4: It's dishonest, it's shady, it's shadow, and it is very
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  Speaker 4: hard to hold. that place where something new, it's in
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: the service of something new coming to pass, something new
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: in the way of consciousness versus simply a transgression.
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  Speaker 1: Agreed. It's like it's something that we don't know beforehand
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  Speaker 1: that is in service of a greater order.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: And we don't know it beforehand.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: That's right.
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  Speaker 4: Now, Merlin does, but we don't. I just remember reading
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: this story a child's version of it at some point
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  Speaker 4: and being really amazed that this was okay to do.
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  Speaker 4: And the version that I read, of course, it was
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: the proverbial dark and stormy night and all the rest
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: of it and people being sneaked in and out of
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: towers for this secret tryst, et cetera. But I think
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: that really still gives us pause, at least gives me pause,
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  Speaker 4: about when do we really know something that by conventional
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: standards is wrong, but is in the service of something greater?
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  Speaker 3: Well, and I want to say that I'm not sure
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: that Merlin ever, that the sort of common laws, let's say,
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: apply to this figure, this archetypal energy, because it's very
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: close to instinct. I want to just read just a
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: few sentences from Hans Zimmer, because he's, you know, he
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: makes the point that Merlin is of the forest and
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: is associated with the forest. And I just, I love
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: his prose. So I just want to read a little
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: bit of it. The forest is the antithesis of house
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: and hearth, village and field boundary where the household gods
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: hold sway and where human laws and customs prevail. It
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: holds the dark forbidden things, secrets, terrors, which threaten the
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: protected life of the ordered world of common day. In
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: its terrifying abyss, full of strange forms and whispering voices,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: it contains the secret of the soul's adventure. Somewhere in
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: this monstrous region, the seat of darkness, the castle of Merlin, stands. So,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: Merlin represents some kind of force outside the bounds of
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: common everyday laws. And I would say also outside the
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: bounds of ego. So it's kind of raw nature in
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: a way.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: He is identified with nature. He comes from nature.
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: If anybody ever gets a chance to see the drawing
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: by Alan Lee.
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Do you want to pick up your computer and go
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: show us? I know it's hanging on your wall.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Sure, I'll be glad to show you. This actually sits above...
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: It sits above the sofa looking at me.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Right. So your analisands sit under that drawing.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: They sit under it, mostly. Yeah. And it's a pencil
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: drawing in 1987 that Alan Lee, who's famous for many things,
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: but particularly being the British recluse designer who did the
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings drawings, part of them. Like the trees,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you know, in Lord of the Rings.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: So you can see it. But this is the emergence
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: of the spirit from nature, from matter.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: It's a little hard to see, but I think he's
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: holding a skull, is he not?
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: He's holding a skull on top of a staff, and
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: then there's a black raven. And you can't see it
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: probably clearly, but he's dressed in kind of what looks
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: like tattered feathers, which was an image of the ancient bards,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: the poets.
• 21:06
  Speaker 6: Uh-huh.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: Wow. So he's a shaman.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, right. He's a shaman. He's an alchemist. He's a soothsayer.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: He's a trickster by far. But this is an image
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: that actually just keeps me in line, basically.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: He's your supervisor.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, right. Right, he is.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: And he's your alter ego too, isn't he, Doug?
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and a certain guide. you know, all of us
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: in the midst of our lives, which for us would
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: also include analytic work, can get stuck, puzzled. And it's
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: just a, it's like a touchstone for me to stop
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: and to probably most of the time remind myself that
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: I don't have to work so hard. You know, the
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: ego doesn't have to, you know, come up with everything
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: to solve a problem or or address this issue, so.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: So wait, say more about that, because I know what
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you mean, I think, but let's unpack that for our listeners.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Well, the notion of one of the most, I guess,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, sacred images we have
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: in Jungian psychology is the relationship between ego and self,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: you know, and And so we all are in the world.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: We can't be in the world without egos, without strong egos.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: And we need strong egos to be able to tolerate
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the powerful energies that arise, such as the wise old
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: man or the earth, the great mother, whatever the energies are.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: And so, but we, this can only take us so far.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: And so the self, the over, the general operating principle
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: of the psyche, which holds all, puts us in a
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: more honest relationship with energies that we otherwise would be avoiding.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: And so, I don't know if that gets to what
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: you were asking, but that's the way I think about it.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: So this character represents that for me. Both Jung, Zimmer,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: and others referred to Merlin as a figure like Mercurius. And,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: you know, who is kind of the beginning, the middle,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: and the end, you know, of all of our work.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: So anyway, that's how it helps me contain when things
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: don't seem to be contained.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. The ego, either ours or the analisans, is not
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: the thing that is going to make the fundamental difference
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: in the treatment, actually.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Write that down. Yeah. So this is an image, Berlin
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: is an image that I wrote about and carries on
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: these archetypal, carries these archetypal energies. And so It serves
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: as a container as much as a kind of inspiration.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: I'm going back to the phrase that you uttered, Doug,
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: that I like a lot, which is it keeps us
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: in a more honest relationship with energies that are below ego,
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: beyond ego, that are, from ego's point of view, darker,
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: even more sinister. You know, in the image of Merlin
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: with a raven in the background and a skull on
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: a staff and these sort of part and parcel of
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: a tree and branches and roots, we tend to forget
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: all of that is in us.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: The forest is such a great symbol of that, of
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: things that are wild and unknown and growing, but there's
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: peril in the forest. And that in the course of
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: an analytic treatment, the healing does not come from the ego.
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: And how do we traverse these more mysterious, confusing, dark,
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: difficult realms? We tend to just banish it, and yet
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: there it is.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in the work, if we banish it, we do
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: so at our own peril. Part of our calling is
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: to hold the dark and the light. And, I mean,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: holding the light's pretty easy in many ways. But there's
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: always a shadow. There is always a shadow.
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Any person, any institution, any collection of human beings. You know,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: when you talked about the, which I think is a
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: very good point, Deb, about very often we feel moved
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: and curiously doubtful about the darkness in life that can
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: often cross moral boundaries, such as you suggest Merlin does,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: but he operates on a very different plane. In nature,
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: we readily accept the predator-prey dynamic. And it's very hard
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: for us as humans, you know, to live with that, understandably.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: because we have reason. But our point here is that
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: not that we should condone it, but that we should
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: recognize it when it's happening in us.
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: I think often what happens is in an effort to
• 27:11
  Speaker 4: not succumb to shadowy, difficult forces, we simply rule them out.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: We say, no. Right.
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: These are the rules and don't do those things. So
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: stay on the bright side because the alternative seems to
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: be otherwise you will fall afoul of decency, kindness, even
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: any kind of respect for your fellow man. And we
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: can't descend into savagery. But really what we're trying to
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: get across is and that the image that you just
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: showed is perfect is if we can understand it and
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: integrate it and find it in ourselves, honestly, then we
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: are less likely to simply fall into those kinds of behaviors.
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: So that's the holding of the opposites. It's about consciousness and, and,
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: And this kind of brutal honesty that an analytic process
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: faces us with. Otherwise, we simply do those things unconsciously.
• 28:31
  Speaker 4: I love that image of there he is.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: And in all of it. You know, I find myself
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: wanting to go back again to this incredible image of
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: like trying to build this tower that keeps falling down.
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Jung says somewhere, well, he actually says in volume five,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: he says, nothing endangers this connection, talking about the connection
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: with the unconscious, more in a man than a successful life.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: It makes him forget his dependence on the unconscious. And
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: that image of the tower falling down, you know, isn't
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: that just the way it goes? We're cooking along, we're
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: living life. We don't think about what's underneath us until
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: our tower keeps falling down. and then we're forced to
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: acknowledge the forces of the unconscious. So it's just such
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: a pithy, pithy image. You know, speaking of Jung, you
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: mentioned Jung and Merlin, and I know that this was
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: something that he does write about. What did Jung say
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: about Merlin? How did Jung view Merlin? Can you speak
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: a little bit about that?
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you for bringing that up. That's really what drew
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: my attention to Merlin, because in his book, Memories, Dreams, Reflections,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: I don't remember the page, but somewhere in there, 282
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: or something like that, he refers to He's at Bollingen,
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: you know, his kind of retreat home that he built.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: And if anyone ever has a chance to visit there,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I would recommend it. What he did a lot of
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: there was inscribe in stone. And he started out with
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: this express, really it was an act of imagination, it seems,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: of allowing the kind of the stone to speak for itself,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: and he writes these alchemical references. And he says, at
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: the end of it, I wanted to write on the
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: back of the stone, Le Cré de Merlin, which is
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: the cry of Merlin. And so he goes on to
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: say that, which is in some ways a kind of
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: confession of Jung's, that his psychology is still misunderstood or
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: not understood to this day. Because what happens, and we're
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: jumping quite ahead in the story of Merlin, which is
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: really where I spend a lot of my time or
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: I've thought about, is in the, quote, death of Merlin.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Because what happens to him eventually at the end, his death,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: and not so much as much the death of Arthur,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: but the death of Merlin, is the end, really, of
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: a kind of medieval age. And it goes something like this.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: near the end of kind of Merlin's life, he recognizes
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: that there is, there's the story of Parsifal. And in Parsifal,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Jung says that Merlin and Parsifal are opposites that need
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: to held together. But Parsifal is the story of really
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: in many ways, if we could kind of unfairly reduce it,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: it's the story of development of a masculine energy in
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: a boy to man relationship. And Parsifal is the one
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: that eventually discovers the Holy Grail, which originally was not
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: a chalice. It was a plate. Yes, this is from
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: the Arabic before it became a Christianized story. Okay. But
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: it was a plate. And if anyone is very interested
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: in reading this, I would so highly recommend von Eschenbach's
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: 13th century book, Parsifal. he writes, of the procession of
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: the Holy Grail, which is entirely brought forth by women,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: by the feminine. It's all carried forth by the feminine. Okay.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: And so it is protected by and cared for by
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: the feminine.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: So.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Percival, in a kind of famous story, eventually finds the
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Fisher King, but he doesn't say anything. He's kind of
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: a good boy and he doesn't say anything. And that
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: actually is the wrong thing. He needs to ask a
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: question of the ailing king. In one story, it's, you know,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: whom does the grail serve? In another story, it's what
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: ails the old king. But regardless, he fails to ask that.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: The next time through, he asks it, and he becomes
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: the grail king. What happened, to back up, the a
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: kind of prequel to this, is that Merlin came up
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: with the idea for Arthur to create the round table
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: in which all of the knights, of which there were 50,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: representing all of the kingdom, would be a part of
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: the round table and all be equal. But there was
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: one seat that was left empty called the seat perilous.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: And the person, it was saved for the one who
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: found quote, the Holy Grail, which everybody goes out thinking
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: it's an object. But of course, it's not. It's a symbol.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: But he eventually finds the Holy Grail. Parsifal does eventually.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: The problem is that Parsifal, the idea of Merlin in
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: the future is that Parsifal then, once discovering his spiritual
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: purposefulness in life, returns to to consciousness, which is the
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: round table. He doesn't do that. He remains in the
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: spiritual realm. Therefore, there is no connection between spirit and matter.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: And so they remain divorced from each other. And they
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: still do.
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Okay. But so Merlin sees this as really the end
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: of his time. And he hears the Christian version. He
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: hears some, you know, the Lord speak to him, etc.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: We would understand that as the unconscious speaking to it.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: And so he goes into, there are several of these stories.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Probably the most well-known one is that he enters into
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: what's called the esplume, which is a French word that
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: scholars have never found to actually have a direct interpretation.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: But its closest understanding is that it is the molting
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: cage for falcons or for birds. And so he enters
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: into this. Well, think of that image. It's a container
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: in order for new life to occur, much like the snake.
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: That's like the drawing, right? These kind of bedraggled feathers, right? Yeah.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: That's right, right. Or much like a snake that loses
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: its skin, it molts, and then new life is created.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: What Jung was referring to in his inscription on the
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: stones is that there are other stories that Merlin connects
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: with a woman, Oh, gosh, there's so many different names.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Nimue is the one that comes to mind for me.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: And she's also sometimes known as Vivian or Ninian.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Right. And so Nimue or Vivian, he bequeaths
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: to her his knowledge and so that she can carry
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: it on. And this is a thing we see all
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: through Merlin is that he is an image of the
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: wise old man. But really fundamentally, he's also, he's fundamentally
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: in service to the feminists. Because being from nature, saving
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: his mother, and bequeathing his traits to a woman who
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: uses her own guile to imprison him. But she is
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the only one who can actually release him. So he
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: is put, there are various stories, but he's put in
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: a cave or in a kind of in a glass
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: type character, whatever, or in the Hawthorne bushes. But Jung's
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: point is that he is underground. He's in the unconscious.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: And if you listen hard enough, you will hear him cry.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: He will hear him say something. And so if you're
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: in the woods, you will hear him. That is, you
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: will hear this energy within yourself coming to speak to you.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: I mean, I will say that when you started talking
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: about the round table, I did get like, a Spamalot
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: song stuck in my head. So I'm going to have
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: to deal with that for the rest of the day,
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: but there are worse fates. But yeah, it's a beautiful story.
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: I would like to take a little bit of a
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: turn into something you just touched on, which is, you know,
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: really the redemption of the feminine.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: You know, in a story that deals, you know, at
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: least on a surface level, so much with masculine figures.
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: And yet here is the symbol, you know, of the
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: grail and Merlin's imprisonment, at least in a couple of versions,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: you know, by a feminine figure. We have the Lady
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: of the Lake, but they're all sort of, you know,
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: they're all sort of like supernumeraries in a great operatic production.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: And so, but let's lift that up of where is
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: the feminine in all of this?
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, all these knights.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: The introduction in the Middle Ages of chivalry, a very,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: very strong part of chivalry was to be in honor
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: of the feminine as that is still in need. But
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: in the story of Merlin, For example, you mentioned the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Lady of the Lake, which is a famous story, and
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: we've all probably seen one of these, but Arthur breaks
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: his sword in battle, and then Merlin says, come, I
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: will take you to get a new sword. And he
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: takes him to the lake, they row out, and then
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: there's this famous scene of the sword rising from the water, right?
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: which was created by the Deep Feminine. It's a female character.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: And that's those opposites again, right? Because the sword is masculine, right?
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right. Masculine because of its differentiation, you know, capacities.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Well, and its shape, you know, not to get too Freudian, but.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: No, no, but the tower is that as well.
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: Right, so the... But anyway, they wrote back to the...
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: to land and they're riding off on their horses. And
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: Merlin asks Arthur this question, which is greater, the sword
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: or the sheath? And he says, well, of course the
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: sword is because I can vanquish anyone. And you can
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: also see the sheath as a feminine container, right?
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: Well, as a matter of fact, do you know what
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: the Latin word is for sheath? Vagina.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, is that right?
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Makes perfect sense. So, but Merlin says to him, you're
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: a fool times 10 or something to that character because
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: you will never be able to be vanquished as long
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: as you have your sheath. The point here is that
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: The power of the sword is only powerful when you
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: see it as a possibility that you can pull out
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: when it's needed.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's so great.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: I love that. When it's called for, not just because
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: you could wield it at any time.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: So it's the discernment and restraint and relatedness.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: That actually makes it powerful.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: All of those. And so you have the images, again,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: the opposites coming together, holding possibilities there. So the other side, Deb,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: back to your question about the feminine, which my personal
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: take on a lot of the stories where the woman
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: character beguiles him, frankly, I saw that as a kind
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: of patriarchal influence about making her the bad guy who
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: holds him under. Yet there is also, if you go
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: to the story of the Esplumo, which is, basically gender neutral.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: It's like Jung's comment. It's not time yet. The capacity
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: for people to be able to hold masculine and feminine,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: light and dark, sun and moon, all of the opposites
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: together or just any kind of daily activity, drive your
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: car fast, drive your car slow. What happens? We're not
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: there yet.
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: You know, in the legend, he's sort of ensorcelled in
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: the forest until eternity. And that leaves this intriguing possibility
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: that he's still there. And if we go into the forest,
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: we might hear him.
• 41:24
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: You know, can I just read another quote from Zimmer
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: on this? Because again, it's really beautiful. And I think
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: it touches on this and also on this thing we're
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: leaning into, which is, What can the story of Merlin
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: teach us about the collective right now and the state
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: of the collective? So Zimmer says, so this is talking
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: about his death and the fact that he voluntarily gives
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: the magic to Nimmo. And just like you explained at
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: the beginning, Doug, he lets himself be captured as a
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: little boy because he understands. So it's kind of a
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: self-sacrifice thing. Does that sound familiar? That also is an
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: important mythology in our culture. And here's what Zimmer says.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: The course of the world history has decided against the
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: morality of the Celts, against Merlin's divine squandering of himself,
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: his abandoning himself to the beguiling being to whom he
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: entrusted the golden ropes of his own captivity. Englishmen, not
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: Irishmen or Welshmen, have founded the greatest empire since Rome.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: And the world is all in favor of roundtable government,
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: voyages of discovery, and the adventure of good-willed intervention. But
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: the White Thorn Hedge blossoms imperishably, and in it Merlin
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: is living still. Can that wizard who is at home
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: in timelessness, the seer that sees the future as a
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: changeling flow of pictures in a crystal ball while he
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: floats beyond the flood, Can he struggle against the waves
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: of time? So is he lost to us? Can we
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: find him? I know the prose is just.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Well, the promise of it is that he's still there.
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: And as Jung said, it's an energy that needs redemption.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: And back to Deb's point about redeeming the feminine, you
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: know and it would be hard to say anything about
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: our culture right now other than we seem to be
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: fascinated with building towers yes right now and I'm waiting
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: for these towers to fall in some way and I don't.
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: We don't know how that will happen but We know,
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: as Jungians, and for those of you who may not
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: be familiar with the term, anantiodromia, it means really if
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: you push something far enough, you're going to find its opposite.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: It will sink into the opposite. There are a lot
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: of feminine voices active right now on both sides of
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: this very, very wide split. But I do have, not
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: just hope, I have a belief in the reality of
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: this archetypal energy that will be rediscovered, or maybe as
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Jung put it, you know, one psyche at a time, perhaps,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: but that I just know from working for so long
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: in studying, and as you all know, working enough with
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: people that the opposites always come through.
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's beautiful.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: I just feel a little bit trickling behind my eyes
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: around the idea of all these towers that we're building
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: and the cry of Merlin, that I think it just
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: resonates deeply in the psyche that we know we need
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: something wild, something honest, something basic. These towers have a
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: sterility that wildness and psyche and nature do not. We
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: know somewhere that there is a cry for something different.
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: And the other part that is still unfinished for me
• 45:42
  Speaker 4: in this discussion is the role of the feminine. Because
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: in this legend... There's a lot of receptivity, including our
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: wonderful image of the bejeweled scabbard, that is basically receptive,
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: and yet there is a very active, proactive, assertive side
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: to the feminine that this story is not particularly really
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: all about. It feels to me like this is a
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: tale very much of the development of the masculine, which
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: is all really well and good because there are tales
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: that are mainly about the development of the feminine, like
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: the story of Psyche and Eros. But I'm thinking about
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: in today's world with all of our skyscrapers and the
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: rest of it, our towers, and are denied fighting dragons
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: underneath them. You know, what about where is the role
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: of the feminine or how does it map on anything
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: from this tale into today's more collective kind of Western culture?
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think maybe just to toss that
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: ball around a little bit, you know, one of the
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: things that's so enduring about the image of the wise
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: old man, and I'm really holding what you said, Doug,
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: that it's, that that's an image of something that can
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: hold the opposites. But I'm thinking about, you know, Gandalf
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: and Dumbledore and, you know, lots of other iterations and
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: how much I think I yearn for that to kind
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: of show up in the culture. I feel like that's
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: so missing, that perspective of like the mature masculine that
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: has a higher perspective and service to something beyond just
• 47:43
  Speaker 3: surface concerns. And, and, and Deb, just to pull in,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: I think where you're going is there's, there's something important,
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: isn't there, about how, as Doug, you pointed out that
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: Merlin is kind of in service to the feminine, or
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: he's very closely aligned with the feminine and, and apparently
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: resting comfortably in the Hawthorne hedge even now with, with
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: his lover. So there's, there's something about you know, the
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: connection between the mature masculine and eros.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes. Well, if you're connected, if masculine energy, but
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: let's just speak gender-wise, if a man is connected to eros,
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: then he has a relationship with his own soul, his anima. Yeah, yeah.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: And she, to use at least these pronouns in this language,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: is as much exiled as anything, at least in the
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: collective these days. Everybody is so busy amassing and building.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Just like Joseph Campbell famously said, look through any culture
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: and you look for the tallest buildings in the cities
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: and you'll find out where the energies are, whether it
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: be the church or the banks. Or now the energy
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: centers that are being built everywhere. You said the word
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: receptivity a minute ago, and that's the sheath, that's the scabbard,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: that's our willingness to receive. not just to pour out
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: and build something and amass and collect. It's just all
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: so externally focused right now, and very few people really
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: want to take the chance to sink into the forest
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: and walk into the forest at a place where no
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: one has been that was literally the instruction Merlin gave
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: to the knights you must walk in where no person
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: has trod you have to go your own way and
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: see what meets you but she's there welcoming opening and
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: yeah we'll get scared This is.
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: A famous quote by Jung, and it's actually one of
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: his clearest and simplest. But I think it's really relevant.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: He said, people will do anything, no matter how absurd,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: in order to avoid facing their own soul, right? Right.
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: So that the invitation is to not just face your soul,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: but develop a relationship with it. And Jung starts the
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: Red Book by saying, you know, my soul, my soul,
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: are you there? I'm here and I'm listening and I've
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: shaken off the dust of my travels. And I'm, you know,
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: he's basically sort of apologizing to his soul saying, I've
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: been away for so long, but I've come back to you.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: If I'm not screwing up that paraphrase, but.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's beautiful. And it's so true for all of us.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: And I don't know, our work is to do this
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: one hour at a time. to to really invite one
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: to connect with the soul and that word gets bandied
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: about and can become kind of unconsciously or unwittingly kind
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: of minimized but i can't think of a word with
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: more deeper roots you know it's like the tree that
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: grows up also grows down yeah yeah i mean that's
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: us if Jung used the image of the rhizome to
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: be able to show what's underneath. And that's where the
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: magic happens.
• 51:30
  Speaker 3: You know, I'm getting a doctorate in psychoanalysis and took
• 51:34
  Speaker 3: this really great class. And we were talking and I'm
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: in the program with analysts from other psychoanalytic schools. And
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: so everyone was sort of talking about like what the
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: big idea is in their psychoanalytic school. And someone said
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: to me, well, you know, what is it in Jungian analysis?
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: And I thought for a second, I said, it's all
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: about developing a relationship with the unconscious. Like that is
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: our big idea. That's the work. That's the invitation. And
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: it seems to me that a figure such as Merlin,
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: that's what it pictures, right? Is that this is the guide.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: This is the psychopomp. This is one way to think
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: about Having access to that. And I love that he
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: sits above your, above your analysis while you're working.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: But it's the relationship with it that is the key.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: I don't hear that coming from other psychoanalytic schools. And
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: perhaps I could be very wrong about that. But it's
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: very important for us to not split and see the
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: unconscious as the enemy. It's full of wisdom. And it
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: is a dark and sometimes dangerous place. That's true. Absolutely.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: And we have to be very mindful of that. But
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I'm reminded of a story of Marian Woodburn, and pardon
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: me if I, that she tells, but this is second
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: or third hand, but it's the image of someone kind
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: of with their knife or their machete hacking their way
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: through the forest and knowing that they're seeking something, but
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: they just have to keep moving through the forest and
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: they keep cutting down the vines and moving forward. And
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: after a while, someone, you know, one sees a little
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: light in the distance and so they move toward it.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: And they hack their way through the bush again towards
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: the light, which they see, I've heard it as like
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: an opening in the forest or perhaps even a river.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: And they look across and they see that there is
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: a cutout in the forest on the other side for
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: that which has been looking for them. And that that
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: is soul. It seeks us. It's that within ourselves we
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: do not have a relationship with yet or fully enough
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: yet that continues to seek us and will never be exhausted.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: That's really beautiful. And I wonder if it's a good
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: time to switch to a dream. I think I just
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: want to give a little... prelude here. I chose the
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: dream this time, and it's a little bit longer, and
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: it's pretty clear to me that the dreamers, that English
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: is not the dreamers' first language. But I thought it
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: was such a compelling image, and I immediately felt moved.
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: And it felt like, in a way that I don't
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: know that I thought through, I had the impression that
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: that our discussion today might also lend some light on
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: what this dream might mean. So you might have to
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: bear with us because it may be just a little
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: bit hard to understand at points, but I think we
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: can make our way through, much like hacking through that
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: lush undergrowth. So Deb, why don't you go ahead?
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: Our dreamer today is a male who is a manager.
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: He's age 40, and he has entitled his dream, Robbing
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: the Bank.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Here's the dream.
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: I have a not-so-good condition, like when I'm poor, and
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: I choose to rob a bank with a group of criminals.
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: And somehow that bank has something extremely valuable in it,
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: and maybe I wouldn't normally want to rob it. But
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: it exists, and it seems like the only way. And
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: all my work for so many years is leading me
• 55:40
  Speaker 4: towards something that normally, on a social level, is a sacrilege.
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: But for me, it becomes a necessary right. It is
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: necessary on my way to rob the bank. Because in
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: a way, I do something that people reject as if
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: it were the greatest sin, the intrusion into the divine,
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: the most vile thing worse than killing someone, maybe. But
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: I know that the first step is something forbidden. and
• 56:08
  Speaker 4: we break the walls with a bazooka, but in a
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: non-aggressive manner. There is no one in the bank, but
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: later I notice it is very possible that there will
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: be some collateral victims, but in a symbolic manner, as
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: if there is always a repercussion on a moral level.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: And I decide to take a car to put some
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: of the money and leave as if the goal is
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: not to take the whole treasure, just a part of
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: it is enough. The goal was just to get in there,
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: to free something. and I end up in an area
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: near a lake, and I manage to hide the money. Initially,
• 56:44
  Speaker 4: I cover the car, and later it ends up buried
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: in the water. But both the mafia and the police
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: are after me because it seems that I killed a criminal.
• 56:54
  Speaker 4: I destroyed something that was basically evil in the court
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: that leads criminals. A kind of mafia, and they are
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: also looking for me. And now I'm being pursued by
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: both forces. but neither of them knows who I am,
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: and that gives a feeling of ambiguity. And I leave
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: there and go to an old woman's house, a kind
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: of grandmother, as a kind of alibi that I was
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: at her place all evening. In a way, I trust
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: her that she's wise enough to understand the meaning of
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: everything that is happening there and to cover me in
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: case they come looking for me. And in the city,
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: everyone is looking for criminals, both the police and the mafia,
• 57:37
  Speaker 4: and I don't know what to do. I have to
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: lie to my family, because no one from the conscious
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: outside world would understand what I did, and that there's
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: a meaning behind it, and that makes me feel so alone.
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: And there's a huge pressure on me, because on the
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: one hand, I feel like it was necessary to break
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: into the bank as a connection with a greater force,
• 58:01
  Speaker 4: but at the same time as something forbidden by people
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: and everyone would judge me. It's like I have a
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: huge treasure inside me, but I don't know what to
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: do with it. Because the dream is beyond robbery or
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: symbolic deaths. It's about being in contact with a very
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: big light, the gold in the bank, and being unable
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: to show it or relate to others, and that suffocates you,
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: at least for the moment. Because the first step is
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: acceptance and the right of robbery. But being such a
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: new and unknown process, you don't know if you did
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: the right thing and what you need to do next.
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: And at some point, a woman shows me an image
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: in which there are some pictures of biblical characters who
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: dedicated their lives to their religion. And half the pictures
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: are cut in two. Only their lower limbs and a
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: little bit of their torso are visible. And the woman
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: tells me that those with the cut pictures died in
• 59:01
  Speaker 4: the name of religion. And then I realize I have
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: to give the money back and surrender, and a state
• 59:07
  Speaker 4: of inner peace appears. as if I understood something, the
• 59:12
  Speaker 4: transcendence in the process. And until the end of the dream,
• 59:16
  Speaker 4: I don't admit my guilt to the others because it's
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: not about that. But I don't feel guilty anymore. It's
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: like when I gave up money. I don't want it anymore.
• 59:27
  Speaker 4: but I don't want to sacrifice myself in front of
• 59:30
  Speaker 4: people's thinking either. I want to be forgiven by God.
• 59:34
  Speaker 4: It's a conflict between the world here with its rules
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: and the world beyond. And for context, he says, I
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: always dreamt a lot, but since I became 40, the
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: dreams got bigger. He says the main feelings in the
• 59:52
  Speaker 4: dream were fear, guilt, and pleasure. And he also adds
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 4: that he doesn't know the people in the dream.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, so I felt really moved when I read
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: this dream without even necessarily knowing why. I just felt
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: really moved. I mean, I want to sort of maybe
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: just start us off with some framing and context that
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: there's not a lot of personal associations here. So one
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: of the things that we might expect then is that
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: this is going to be a more archetypal dream. And
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: we might use amplification more than personal associations to understand
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: the dream elements. And actually, the dream itself is fairly sparse.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: There's this bank. He needs to rob it with a
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: group of criminals. They initially use this bazooka. He takes
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: some of it away and hides it. And then he's
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: being pursued. And then he realizes he needs to give
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: it back. And then there's this kind of coda at
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: the end about the religious figures. But a lot of
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: what he shared, I think, is his emotional experience of
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: the dream, which is very feelingful.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I was taken with the notion immediately that something
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: is forbidden that I must seek.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: Right, which is, I mean, in the spirit of today,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: very Merlin-esque.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: That this is the forest that, by any other name,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: but it's put in the guise of a bank. you know,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: the place that stores, you know, something of value. And
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: in some ways, it's rather simple in its telling and
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: really quite transparent.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. And he has some idea, I think, of what
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: it means, too.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Because it feels that way, and I don't want to
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: project onto the dreamer here much. I really want to
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: honor his dream.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: So there's this idea that you know, the forbidden task,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 3: that there must be a transgression. And of course, you know,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: Jung says that individuation is contra naturum, it goes against nature.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: So the process of becoming conscious is transgressive, you know,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: just like eating from the fruit of the tree of
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: good and evil, right? It's like, We are not supposed
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: to do that in a sense, but here it is.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: It goes against all convention and the other people that
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: do it with him, they're a bunch of criminals. Deb,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: you know, I'm directing this at you because lo these
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: many years ago, I remember I called you up and
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: I was struggling with something and you gave such good advice.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: You said, go read The Goldfinch and it was such
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: good advice. And I did. And I loved that book.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: Pulitzer Prize winning novel by Donna Tartt, which came out in,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago. And somehow, Deb,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: when I read this dream, I thought, this is the goldfinch.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: And that book is, it's such a moving book. But Theo,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: the main character, first thing he does is transgress. He
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: effectively steals a painting from from the Metropolitan Museum of
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: Art and carries it with him. And then, by the way,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: at the end of the book, spoiler alert, gives it back.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: But he's been transformed through the process. So there's some
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: resonance there for me with that extraordinary novel that I
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: just loved.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: Something has to be released. It's the break-in to release,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: he says, the dream says the goal is just to
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: get in there to free something.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: And we may not know what that is, but what
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: needs to be freed?
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: Here's what I'm paying attention to in this dream that
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: I think relates to what we were talking about, about
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 4: the cry of Merlin. of how really difficult it is,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: you know, like the task that was set to the
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 4: knights of entering the forest, but you have to go
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 4: where no one has gone before, where there is no path.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 6: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 4: And what this dream really illustrates for me is just
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 4: how hard it is to be in that place.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: That there's a way our poor dream ego here is
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 4: having a hell of a time. You know, he chooses
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 4: to rob the bank with a group of criminals. And
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 4: he's anguished about all of it, of people are after him.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 4: And it's a sacrilege. But on the other hand, it's
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 4: really necessary. And then we're going to break in, but
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 4: it's going to be kind of a non-aggressive breaking in.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 4: And On it goes. He's here, there, and elsewhere of
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 4: suffering the difficulty of making these choices. Did he destroy something?
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: Is he stealing something? Is there meaning in it? What
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 4: is going on here? And it's a very confusing dream
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 4: just to read from an informational level of like, wait
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 4: a minute. I have to go back over that again.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: What happened again here?
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 4: But here is the struggle that we've been talking about
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: in the episode between ourself and ourself, ego, the unconscious,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 4: what's right, what's wrong, and what is the level of
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: transgression that is necessary in order to find peace And
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: have a relationship with the depth.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: The moral problem that this dreamer has, that the dream
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: ego has, is what is so important not to concretize this.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: It's an inner struggle for the dreamer. You know, you're
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: not going to go, this is not sanctioning robbing banks.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: You know, but it is In many ways, it implies
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: that the dreamer has for a long time stored up
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: a great deal of psychic possibilities that need to be redeemed.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: And with any redemption, there has to be a sacrifice.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: No, that's perfect. Yeah.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: There is no consciousness raising without sacrifice or finding out
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: something that's there. You'll have to Let something go. And
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: in this case, it was facing the, you know, the
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: kind of social morality that, or the collective morality that says,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: don't do this, never do that.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: The good guys and the bad guys are mad at him.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right. Everybody's upset. Yes. And it's because like most
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: of us know, if we change our way of being
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: in the world, other people don't like it.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: Because we've taught them how to treat us and how
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: to be with us. for decades frequently. And then now
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: I'm a different person, but I'm answering to something much
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: more deeply embedded in me that I cannot, I have
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: to free.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: And the old woman supports it and protects him and
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: is willing and is also kind of this amoral force, right?
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 3: Because she's going to lie for him. She's, you know,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: she's going to be his alibi. But it says that
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: something much deeper in the psyche, this kind of you know,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: archetypal feminine energy approves of this and is, you know,
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: giving it her blessing, if you will. I thought it
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: was really, well, first of all, we should, I mean,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: this is all over it, right? Is that, you know,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: the dreamer says, I've always dreamt a lot, but boy,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: since turning 40 and he's 40 now. Okay. So we're
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: clearly in midlife, right? Right squarely there. And his car
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: is buried in the lake. I think that was buried
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: in the water, which happens to us at Midlife, right?
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: Our typical way of moving through the world, our egoic
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: strategy gets waterlogged and it doesn't go anymore.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Was that the car that served the purpose, though, of
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: taking the money from the bank?
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: So it served the purpose of transporting them away, but
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: then it's no longer. could no longer be used.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's interesting. The woman is a kind
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: of grandmother, which is, of course, the great mother.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 4: And he's going for the gold. You know, it's about
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: being in contact with a very big light, the gold
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: in the bank. And it does often require a robbery,
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 4: doesn't it? We have to take something that goes against
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: conventional social rules, and he's afraid people will judge him.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 4: This is really exactly the kind of quandary that we
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 4: suffer in this kind of process. To get something greater,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 4: we have to let go of conventional social rules and regs.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 4: And it feels like, it feels like a robbery.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: And like you said a minute ago, Doug, like something
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 3: has to be sacrificed. You know, I want to speak
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 3: to this interesting kind of code at the end with
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: these pictures of religious figures and that kind of thing.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: And then he says, I realize I have to give
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: it back. And this ending is particularly mysterious to me.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: I don't really pretend to understand it all. But This
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: idea of, I have to give it back, it's like
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: the point is not to aggrandize the ego with the treasure. It's,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: so there is a sort of, I have to do
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: this transgressive act, I have to free the treasure, but
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: then it's not really about the ego holding onto it.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: You know, which again kind of brings me to Merlin,
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: like Merlin withdraws from the world. And it also, again,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: makes me think of the novel. the goldfinch, because at
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 3: the end, Theo's like, yeah, I have to give it back,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: to give the painting back. But it is, like, it
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: may be something in a, it looks like something goes
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: back to the status quo ante, but really not, really
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: that's not the case.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 6: Something has been changed. The attitude is different. It has
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 6: changed and it's been discovered. I know what's there. And
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 6: if I put it back, then I can take from
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 6: it as I need it.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 4: He's on a quest, and the quest is difficult. And
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: it is fraught with inner uncertainty and travail. It's a
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: wonderful dream for depicting just how torturous the process is.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: To the ego, the dream ego, but the ego.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: Well, I know I'm certainly very appreciative of this dreamer
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: and sharing his dream and we wish him all the best.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: Appreciate him's willingness to just let us peek into his
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: psyche for the benefit of all of us. I mean,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: it even reaches a collective point at the end of
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: the dream. It's a conflict between the world here And
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: the rules of the world beyond. So it's a little event.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: It's like sacrificing a kind of ego's morality to a
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: greater morality that calls you.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: Very much. Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: an episode topic, or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com.
• 1:12:36
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• 1:12:39
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• 1:12:47
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• 1:12:50
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• 1:12:53
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