Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / Does the Resurrection Matter?

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Does the Resurrection Matter? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Tim Wright back with you along with John DeLorean Burgess.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what the D stands for?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to go with yes from now on.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: So John's filling in for us still as we are allowing Terry the space she needs to
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: grieve as she lost her husband not too long ago.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: And she'll be back with us soon.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: We're all praying for Terry.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Love her very, very much.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: And today we're going to tackle a question that came from one of our listeners.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a really, really good one.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of different places that we can go with this.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be interesting to see.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: where we head and i've labeled it does the resurrection matter but john you've got
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: the question so let's hear it i do this is my big moment here with the question and
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: it is this from this is from our listeners
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: One of them anyway.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: We've been listening to your podcasts.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's a hell of a podcast, by the way.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this was obviously the one on hell.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, probably.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask then if the story of the resurrection of Christ might be figurative
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: rather than literal also.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So in other words...
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: One way of saying it is, do you still have Christianity if Jesus didn't rise from the dead?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: If it was a figurative experience for the early Christians?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of different ways to go with this.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Let me start by saying that there are and have been theologians over the years who
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: do believe that this was not a literal resurrection,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: but a figurative resurrection.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: that the story of Jesus,
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: that all that Jesus stood for was sort of rebirthed in his followers and is
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: continually rebirthed or resurrected from generation to generation as the story of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: his vision for life,
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: his vision for the world lives on.
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  SPEAKER_01: And some of them are reputable stories.
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  SPEAKER_01: theologians who are, you know, if you cut them, so to speak, they bleed Christianity.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're Christian people and don't believe any less about the story of the gospel
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  SPEAKER_01: than those of us who believe Jesus literally rose from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_01: So there are theologians who do believe this.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: And let me just,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: let's go down this road for just a moment because I don't believe this,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: but let's just go down the road for a moment.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: and say that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, what do we have left in the gospel story?
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do we have left?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: By Jesus not rising from the dead, does that mean that all of Christianity is a waste of time?
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  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what this does is it gives us a good chance for just a few moments
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: to remind ourselves of what the story of Jesus is all about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because for far too many,
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  SPEAKER_01: especially those of us who live in westernized countries like the United States of America,
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Christianity has been boiled down to one simple concept.
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  SPEAKER_01: Believe in Jesus, and when you die, you'll go to heaven.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Believe in Jesus.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: When you die, you go to heaven.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that the story of Jesus is all about Jesus coming to rescue us from death or hell,
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: as we talked about in other podcasts.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that misses the bulk of what the story of the gospel is about.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So let's just take the resurrection out of it for a moment.
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  SPEAKER_01: And let's just imagine for a moment
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  SPEAKER_01: that when we come to the end of our lives,
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  SPEAKER_01: we die and that's it,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is what our Hebrew,
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  SPEAKER_01: our Jewish friends believed early on in the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does Christianity have anything to offer us then?
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  SPEAKER_01: Does Christianity have anything to say to us?
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  SPEAKER_01: Once in a while,
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  SPEAKER_01: I hear people say,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: if Jesus didn't rise from the dead and nobody's going to hell,
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  SPEAKER_01: then why should I live a Christian life?
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  SPEAKER_01: And that, again, sort of says they've missed the whole point of the gospel story.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because the gospel story isn't first and foremost about Jesus saving us for heaven.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's about Jesus saving us for life right now.
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  SPEAKER_01: And as we've talked about before,
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus, his Bible was the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: So his understanding of God grew out of the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: His understanding of God's message grew out of the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so these are some of the things that were important for Jesus and are still
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: important for Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: even if there wasn't a resurrection.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, please hear me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I believe there was a real resurrection.
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  SPEAKER_01: But I'm going to use this opportunity for us to remind ourselves of what the gospel story is about.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing that the gospel story is about is about a God who loves us passionately.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Creator loves us even though we are broken, even though we are lost.
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  SPEAKER_01: even though we are sinful, whatever word you want to use, the Creator loves us.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the Creator calls us to live lives that are in line with the values of God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the values of God are about love the Lord your God with heart,
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  SPEAKER_01: soul,
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  SPEAKER_01: mind,
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  SPEAKER_01: and strength,
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  SPEAKER_01: and love your neighbor as yourself.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then those are teased out with being compassionate with
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  SPEAKER_01: toward all people,
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  SPEAKER_01: loving our enemies,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: fighting for justice and equality in the lives of people,
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  SPEAKER_01: treating people with dignity and respect.
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  SPEAKER_01: Uh, let justice roll down like water, for example, or an Isaiah.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is the fast that I want from you to feed the hungry and to care for the vulnerable,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: to welcome strangers,
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  SPEAKER_01: uh,
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  SPEAKER_01: to side always with the vulnerable.
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  SPEAKER_01: What we see over and over again in the Old Testament is a God who sides with the
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  SPEAKER_01: poor and the oppressed and those who've been sort of forced out of society.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus reiterates all of that in his message of the gospel.
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  SPEAKER_01: So when he says the kingdom of God has come near,
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  SPEAKER_01: The rule of God has come near.
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  SPEAKER_01: Believe the good news.
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  SPEAKER_01: The good news isn't about Jesus dying and rising again so that we'll go to heaven.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's about how God wants to transform our lives and help us to live God lives right now,
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  SPEAKER_01: which means caring for our neighbors,
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  SPEAKER_01: treating people with dignity and respect,
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  SPEAKER_01: grace,
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  SPEAKER_01: fighting for equity,
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  SPEAKER_01: fighting for justice,
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  SPEAKER_01: all of those things that are in the Old Testament.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so even if you were to take out the resurrection,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: The gospel has a ton to say to us about how to live life as followers of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's also about forgiveness rather than revenge and retribution.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's about grace rather than rejection.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's about reconciliation rather than creating enemies.
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  SPEAKER_01: All of these things are a part of the story, the gospel of Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what he calls us to live.
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  SPEAKER_01: When he says the kingdom of God has come near,
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  SPEAKER_01: he means God's rule,
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  SPEAKER_01: God's values are what he's calling us to live into right now.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think we miss that when we boil the Christian message down to Jesus died and
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  SPEAKER_01: rose again so that I won't go to hell,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll go to heaven when I die.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's to completely miss 90% of the gospel message.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm taking a breath, John.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, as always, your answer also provides more questions.
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  SPEAKER_00: But I thought you were going to say the message is both and.
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  SPEAKER_00: The message of the gospel is about what's happening today and now, and it's about what's going to happen.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, I believe that.
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  SPEAKER_01: But what I was trying to do at this point was to take the and out of it because we
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  SPEAKER_01: always miss the beginning of the story.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'll come back to that because I do believe that Jesus rose from the dead and it
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: says something about our eternal destiny.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: But there's so much more.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus came not to help us, not to rescue us from death.
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  SPEAKER_01: He came to rescue us, so to speak, from life.
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  SPEAKER_01: and to give us life and to call us to live compassionate,
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  SPEAKER_01: loving,
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  SPEAKER_01: caring lives,
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  SPEAKER_01: which we don't often see coming out of Christianity that at least is portrayed in
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  SPEAKER_01: the media and that we see on social media.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's because that's, that would be boring.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, here's, here's some Christians being compassionate to their neighbor.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to make the news when we got all kinds of, so, but again,
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: But you're going to say, well, this is a great question, John, but that's a different podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: But if we're talking about God's interest in us now today and the good news of the
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  SPEAKER_00: gospel being about rescuing us from life today and respect and justice and equity
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  SPEAKER_00: and forgiveness and compassion,
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  SPEAKER_00: then of course,
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  SPEAKER_00: in my humanity,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to say,
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  SPEAKER_00: but none of that,
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  SPEAKER_00: even if I'm acting with those virtues,
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  SPEAKER_00: if I'm bringing them into my daily life,
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  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't mean that my life will be one of wonder and splendor.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it will be.
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  SPEAKER_01: It may not be a life of happiness all the time,
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  SPEAKER_01: but I do think that when we live counter-culturally and we live a life of
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  SPEAKER_01: compassion and love and we live a life where our lives are taking on meaning by
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  SPEAKER_01: helping our neighbors and throwing out of them their dignity and value,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think we find a deep sense of joy and rootedness and meaning in life that other
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  SPEAKER_01: people who live for themselves never really have.
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  SPEAKER_01: They're never satisfied.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we even have brain science to tell us that when we help other people,
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  SPEAKER_01: we get shots of dopamine that enhance the way that we feel about life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And they last longer.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: we get shots of dopamine every time we go on Amazon and buy something,
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  SPEAKER_01: but that's a dopamine that's short-lived and then it needs another boost.
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  SPEAKER_01: So yes,
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  SPEAKER_01: I do think that when we live this life that Jesus called us to live,
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  SPEAKER_01: that in the end,
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  SPEAKER_01: there is something about that kind of living that adds substance and depth and
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  SPEAKER_01: meaning to
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  SPEAKER_01: that then is able, in a sense, to kind of help us get through some of the other tough stuff as well.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because we're all going to go through it.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're going to go through loss.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're going to go through broken relationships, whatever it might be.
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  SPEAKER_01: But if our vision of life is about treating people with dignity and respect,
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  SPEAKER_01: if it's about grace and compassion,
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: those give us some tools to help us deal with life's disappointments that...
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Self-centeredness doesn't give us at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: No,
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  SPEAKER_00: I just think that when you say,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: right when you started the podcast,
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  SPEAKER_00: you said,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: we sort of distilled this down to something that's missing some very big points.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the distilled part was believe in Jesus and I get to go to heaven.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the heaven part is full of wonder and splendor and happiness.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you're saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: wait a minute,
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  SPEAKER_00: let's not forget about today and the kind of life that we're living today,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is arguably involves wonder and splendor and happiness.
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  SPEAKER_01: If we can step back and just think about life.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right now,
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  SPEAKER_01: you and I and people listening,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: our brains,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: think about what our brains are doing right now in this moment.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: Think about some of the feelings that we have, the questions that you just asked.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: We take it all for granted.
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  SPEAKER_01: It's amazing stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: I see you in color.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: got the bright light bouncing off your bald head and it's a little blinding and you
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  SPEAKER_01: can see the reflection off of my reader's glasses because I can't see without them on.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's all wonder and splendor.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then you look outside and you see blue sky and you see trees and you can go out
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  SPEAKER_01: and you hear birds singing or whatever it might be.
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  SPEAKER_01: Those are all moments of wonder and awe.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think we become far more attuned to them
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  SPEAKER_01: When we are attuned to the creation around us, meaning human beings in need, a creation in need.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think that fills, then we're living in the sweet spot of how God created us to live anyway.
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  SPEAKER_01: To serve, to love, to enjoy.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Again, that doesn't mean everything's always happy.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of the challenge for Christianity is a lot of people think we
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: should always be happy and if we're not,
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  SPEAKER_01: something's wrong with me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Jesus wasn't always happy.
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  SPEAKER_01: Telling you he wasn't up there singing pop songs on the cross.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think that what most,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: certainly what I've thought from time to time is I'm really buying into this Jesus thing.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hoping that more happiness comes along with it.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's just normal humanity saying,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: at a certain level,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think every one of us is like,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: if I do a little bit more Sunday school as a volunteer,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: my mansion's a little bit bigger in heaven.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to be a little bit happier here on earth.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's no theology to back that up, except just my basic nature.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: and this is where it's always good just to remember there's a vast difference
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: between happiness and joy.
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  SPEAKER_01: Happiness is always dependent on the circumstances.
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  SPEAKER_01: Joy is the security of knowing that God's got me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I may not always feel it,
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  SPEAKER_01: may not always seem like it,
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  SPEAKER_01: but God has given me this rich promise that God will not abandon me
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's part of what we see with the Jesus on the cross,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
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  SPEAKER_01: my God,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: my God,
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  SPEAKER_01: why have you abandoned me?
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  SPEAKER_01: And then he finds out God was there all along.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so joy can have, joy should, can and should have these moments of euphoria and happiness.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: But joy can also be that
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: that sense of, uh, such deep loss and pain that, that I just poured out to God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I don't even have the words to say,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: but there's something that's deeper than my grief and that's God's grace.
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  SPEAKER_01: Joy is found there.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: But again, when we're focused more on the values of Jesus and the kingdom of God, um,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: then we find more meaning and substance in life.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: if you buy into that Christianity,
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: the sum of Christianity is we,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus died for us,
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  SPEAKER_01: so when we die,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: we go to heaven.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: What that has created is a lot of Christians who don't give a tree fig about
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: creation or about their neighbors.
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  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm saved.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to heaven.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why should I care?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's pretty obvious when you look at the way some Christians treat the planet
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: and treat each other and treat other people that they've completely missed the
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: point of Christianity.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that's to love the Lord your God with heart,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: soul,
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: mind,
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what Jesus says.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because we do at some point need to say that Jesus did rise from the dead.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, I know I'm doing an excellent job of taking you down three different rabbit holes at the same time.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm just going to give it back to you.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's because therefore.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's always because therefore.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because God loves me.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because God is gracious.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore,
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: I have this great calling in life,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: this great privilege to live out the values of the kingdom of God.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Look, none of us do it perfectly.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a great segue then into why the resurrection does matter.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because it is both and.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: It is about living life right now.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it is also about the creator of the universe having final say over creation.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: and all of those things that destroy us and destroy creation.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so the mission of God in Jesus is to reconcile the world to God's self,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: to put the world back together,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: to put us back together.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in order for that to happen, there are certain enemies that have to be defeated.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the last enemy is death.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so the resurrection, um,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: basically puts a stake into the heart of death and says, you have no power anymore.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have the final word.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where hope comes in that we live,
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: we live life now in grace and love and joy,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: forgiveness,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: and also motivated by hope that this story will continue.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the end of the story.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: as rich as life is here, as you say, someday it will be even more amazing.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: What we want to be careful of,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to say here,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: is we don't want to be so caught up in heaven that we miss out on life right now.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: You sure hate to get to heaven, right?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Stand before Jesus and he says, boy, you really...
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: You just waited for this moment to happen.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: 80 years, all you did was you just waited for this moment to happen.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: All this life that you missed.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: he's not going to say that,
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: but we don't want to get to the end of our lives either and say,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: all I did was live to die for heaven's sake.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's not what Jesus created us to do.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple of things about the resurrection and why the overwhelming majority of
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Christians believe it happened.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: As great as the teachings of Jesus are,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure that had there not been a resurrection,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: any of us would have known about it.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: That you had 11 disciples, not 12, but 11, and more than that, really.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: The overwhelming majority of whom died for their belief that Jesus rose from the dead tells us
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: that they didn't believe this was just figurative.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: This was a reality.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: There were, according to the scriptures, over 500 people who saw Jesus alive after his death.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: And the only way that you can really explain this
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: the transformation of Saul,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: the murderer and persecutor,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: into Paul,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: the most articulate Christian in history,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: is to say he had an experience with the living Jesus.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't just his imagination.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't bad pork, even though he wouldn't eat pork.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: He really saw Jesus and saw him alive.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it's Paul who said, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, we out of anyone should be most pitied.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that he's referring to not the way that we live our lives, but the hope that we live with.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: That someday we will be with Jesus for eternity.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Paul certainly talked a lot about the way that we should live our lives right now.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Almost every letter that he wrote,
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: the second half of his letter was,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: this is what it looks like to live like a follower of Jesus.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right now, this is what it looks like to live the Jesus life, why it has meaning.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: But he also rooted everything he said in the fact that all of these things that rob
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: us of life,
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: grief,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: sadness,
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: death,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: sin,
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: all of these things have been defeated by Jesus through his resurrection.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And even though they win some battles now,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: the war is going to be over and someday we'll stand with Jesus.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And this life that he created us to live, we will experience in its fullness.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: now people don't have to believe this,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: but I do believe that Christianity in the end stands or falls on the resurrection
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: of Jesus.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, while you've been talking, I've been trying to find the quote and I can't find it.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not going to name the well-known theologian that said this,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: but my memory of what he said was,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Christianity rises and falls on the resurrection of Jesus.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if it's wrong, then you will, if it didn't happen, in other words,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: you will have lived your life being a little bit more kind to the people around you.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so the other thing that I'll say for those folks listening that maybe are
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: really interested in looking at this really analytically,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: he does say,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: love your Lord God with all your heart,
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: all your mind and all your soul.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think that loving him with your mind is in part asking questions and
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: and looking at things critically.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just know that,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: a couple of books,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: there's,
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: there's a few people out here that do this,
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't know that anybody does it better than Jay Warner Wallace and the books
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: on cold case Christianity.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: When,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: when he takes a look at,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: sort of an evidence and analytical based,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: approach to the resurrection itself.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Super interesting.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: he's a former,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: cold case homicide detective and looking at it through that lens,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think is very interesting.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly I don't understand Paul at all if he didn't absolutely believe it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he just went from that was a total 180.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he was willing to die for it.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: Willing to die for it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's even more than take your most hated unnamed political figure and pretend
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: that they go over to the other party.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's even more radical than that.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: By the way, we will put that in the notes.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: So when people get the email, the sub stack with this, they'll have the notes.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: John can send that to me.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: one of the great witnesses to the resurrection,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: and we've already mentioned,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: is that at least 10 of the original 12 disciples died a martyr's death in
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: because they believed in the resurrection, not just the message of Jesus, but the resurrection of Jesus.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the odds of 10 people doing that for something they all knew wasn't true, pretty high.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also know just some other things that, that, um, this book will talk about is, um,
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: just the protocols around a grave at that time and how secure they made the grave.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's empty and they were never able to produce a body and so on and so forth.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of logical reason-based arguments for the resurrection itself.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: What I find most compelling is certain of the stories of the disciples who gave
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: their lives,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Paul's story,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: But also we have 2,000 years of billions of people whose lives have been transformed,
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: absolutely changed.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't happen just through embracing a particular teaching.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we can embrace a teaching and it can sort of change the way that we see life and do life.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: But we're talking about a radical transformation of people's lives who once were lost and now are found.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: Who are blind but now see.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's why the resurrection is not just metaphorical.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's literal.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's how God brings the world together.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's how God reconciled the world by just by defeating all the enemies.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: And again,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: it's really important to understand that it's,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: it's this Jesus,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: the resurrected Jesus who runs to us like the father of the prodigal son did.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then takes the shame.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: He removes the shame.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: He removes the guilt and puts new clothes on us.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's not just a metaphorical idea.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's a reality that happens when the living Christ meets us with grace.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: The one who was lived, died, and rose again.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: So again,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: there are some theologians who will make a case that it was metaphorical,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: but there's still a lot in the teachings of Jesus that are commendable.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: But all that takes on its real meaning and power
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: by the story of Jesus actually rising from the dead.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I'm not convinced that we would have this kind of a story if Jesus hadn't risen from the dead.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And just one quick clarification.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: You were talking about 10 of the 12 disciples being put to death and likely
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: tortured in many cases because they believed...
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: in Jesus and part of Jesus' story being that he died and rose again.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you were talking about how unlikely it would be that all of those people would
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: stick to that story if it was just fiction.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: It had to be something that they absolutely wanted to believe in.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Tim,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: it's a great question because a lot of times you encourage people as you look
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: through the Bible to understand the nature of,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: the Bible was written for you,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: but two people
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: a long time ago,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: and that they are reading this story,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: not as a Westerner reads a journalistic story,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: but reads,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: a story that has meaning in it and poetry.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times you encourage a little bit more of a metaphorical approach.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: But here, what I hear in your heart is there's a stake in the ground around this particular part.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but again, you have to understand the type of
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Literature that's being used.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul's letters, we don't read as metaphors.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: We read those as letters.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: The Psalms, we don't read as epistles or letters.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: We read as poetry.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And when we get to the gospel story,
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: they are not giving us the option of believing that Jesus was still dead.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, many people say that the gospel stories are...
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: stories meaning they're about the death and resurrection of Jesus and everything
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: that comes before it leads up to that moment because it's that moment then when you
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: look back that makes everything that Jesus says powerful and transformational yes
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: so yes I'm a guy who believes that Jesus really rose from the dead I'm a guy who
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: believes that we will all see Jesus someday and that when we see Jesus it will be
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: with his grace face on
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And won't we be fortunate?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: I would be very fortunate that he has his grace face on when he sees me.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we all will be.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great, it's a great question.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure this is one that we'll come back to again because there's so much involved
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: in it,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: but we'll put that resource in.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there are others who have made similar kinds of arguments for the resurrection.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there are some good reason-based concepts for believing in it.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: There are faith-based reasons for looking at it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: There are cultural reasons, biblical reasons.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are a lot of reasons for believing that Jesus rose from the dead.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's what ultimately gives Christianity its power for us to live life right now.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: You've heard the old saying, don't be so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, we're called to be people of the world, people of the earth, people of grace.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And when our lives are done, that's when Jesus says, well done, good and faithful servant.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: Come on, take a break.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have not heard that one because I am much younger than you.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, is that what it is?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: All the really old elder Christians that I grew up with.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: That was their line.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_01: All right, John, thank you so much.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, Hey, we want to thank everybody for listening.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy this podcast, why don't you share it with some friends?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's get the word out and we're going to be back next week.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know yet exactly what we're going to talk about, but we'll get there.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, Terry will be back with us soon.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, John D. Thank you too.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks everyone for listening.