Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Childhood Sexual Abuse Prevention: Parenting Safe Children with Feather Berkower | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 14

Transcript

Childhood Sexual Abuse Prevention: Parenting Safe Children with Feather Berkower | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 14 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: We are so glad you're here.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: We've got it here for you.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: We bring to you our own personal experiences, moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
0:27
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: Bring your friends.
0:29
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
0:31
SPEAKER_01: We've got you.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Come mother with us.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: Kate and I had the privilege to interview Feather Burkhauer this week.
0:46
SPEAKER_02: She is the founder of Parenting Safe Children, and she is one of the nation's leading experts in child sexual assault prevention.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: She has dedicated her life to helping parents understand and feel empowered to protect their kids from sexual assault.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: It was a really intense and fascinating interview, and I'm really excited for you all to listen to it.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: Feather is a gift of knowledge, and we have tons of information of how to get in touch with her in the show notes.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: I really hope you enjoy it.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: Deb and I love jewelry, and we also feel really inspired to be shopping at locally owned intentional businesses.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Leela Inspired has an ethos that guides their design, their culture, and their personal and shared lives.
1:34
SPEAKER_01: The collective mindset and way of living is best represented through three pillars in their business Create, Connect, and Explore.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Their jewelry is beautiful and it stands for something super important.
1:45
SPEAKER_01: Go check them out, Leelainspired.com.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: We have a discount code in our show notes, and you'll both feel beautiful inside and feel like you're doing something good on the outside.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: Hey y'all, it's Kate.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: As you know, I am really passionate about helping mothers learn how to reconnect with themselves, develop skills and strategies for being resilient to all of those bumps in the road of motherhood.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: And my biggest joy is partnering with you as you go along the journey to find new ways of being in the world where you feel more energized, you have more joy, more connections, deeper connections, more time, more space.
2:24
SPEAKER_01: I've opened up a few one-on-one coaching spots, and I want to invite you to reach out to me and consider the possibility of working together.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: You can look for that on my website, katekripke.com.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: I really hope to partner with you.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: Hey all, this is Deb.
2:39
SPEAKER_02: This is your last chance to sign up for my virtual workshop for moms and middle school daughters and those who identify as daughter.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: This workshop starts April 6th.
2:48
SPEAKER_02: My groups are extremely informative about the adolescent process and the psychology of parenting.
2:53
SPEAKER_02: They're dynamic, empowering, and supportive.
2:56
SPEAKER_02: You will learn ways to get your daughter to open up to you, learn how to elevate her self-esteem and worthiness, increase your confidence in navigating technology, anxiety, sexuality, and body image.
3:07
SPEAKER_02: And most of all, as you become more of a critical thinker, you will parent with more steadiness and confidence.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: If you are willing to change your stance even a little, you will be blown away by how much more connection you can have with your daughter and yourself.
3:21
SPEAKER_02: Come thrive with me.
3:23
SPEAKER_02: For 20% off, you can use the promo code MotherhoodUncut.
3:27
SPEAKER_02: All one word.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: I can't wait to work with you.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Deb.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Kate.
3:32
SPEAKER_02: Hi.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Happy Podcast Day.
3:33
SPEAKER_01: Happy Podcast Day.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: We have for our listeners today a really important member of our boulder community who you and I both know professionally and also personally.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Will you introduce Feather and then we'll jump in?
3:49
SPEAKER_02: Yes, we have Feather Burkauer.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: Feat is a licensed clinical social worker and holds a master's of social welfare from the University of California in Berkeley.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: She's been a leader in child sexual abuse prevention since 1985 and has educated nearly 150,000 school children, parents, and youth professionals.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: She's amazing.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: She is also the co-author of Off Limits, a parenting book that will change the way you think about keeping children safe.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: It's available at her website.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: And we're going to learn all about Feather today.
4:26
SPEAKER_02: She gives talks and she is a wealth of knowledge.
4:28
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Feather.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Feather.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: You know what we were reminding of Feather of before we started recording was that you and I and our husbands came to Feather's workshop in Boulder when our daughters were like two, three, and four.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: And really, Feather, I will say that worked.
4:48
SPEAKER_01: I know we talked a lot about it after, but that workshop really shifted things for I will say us 100%.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: In the way we in my family, and I think Deb's also talk about child abuse and empowerment as our kiddos for our kiddos and learning to protect themselves.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: Do you want to share with our listeners to start a little bit more from your mouth and mind what your work is all about?
5:21
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: And I I have to say, Kate and Deb, I just that makes my day, it makes my work all the more worth it that it shifted things for you.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: And at some point, I would love to hear how and how you've put it into practice.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: But let's see, I live in Louisville, Colorado, Boulder County.
5:42
SPEAKER_00: And my work in child sex abuse prevention started in the mid-80s, so long decades ago.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: And my my work and my vision is all about creating a world that is free of sexual violation of children.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: And I present workshops to parents and youth professionals all about keeping kids safe with a perspective that adults are responsible for protecting children from sexual abuse.
6:16
SPEAKER_00: It's a really hard topic to think about, talk about, to feel in our hearts.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: And adults are responsible that children can learn protection skills.
6:25
SPEAKER_00: It's important that they do.
6:27
SPEAKER_00: However, ultimately, it is up to adults to protect children, not for children to protect themselves.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's what my work, that's the focus of my work.
6:38
unknown: Yeah.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: This is so in line in many ways with the work that Deb and I both do in our individual practices around really needing to take accountability and personal responsibility for the safety of our children in all aspects, right?
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Mental health, secure, healthy attachment and relationships, right?
7:02
SPEAKER_01: To really understand that as mothers, as parents, we set the tone.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: Adults have to because I mean the brain of a six-year-old doesn't really have the capacity to take on the dynamics of what occurs when an adult or an older youth is manipulating a child into something as betraying as you know, touching their body in unsafe ways, touching their genitals and even manipulating their spirit.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there's a lot we can dive into here.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Did you, I can't remember already.
7:40
SPEAKER_00: Did you ask me how I got into this work?
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Is that important?
7:43
SPEAKER_00: Or should we just dive into the topics?
7:46
SPEAKER_02: No, I actually want to specifically ask you how did this, if you're comfortable, telling us your journey of how this became your passion?
7:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: So, and I get asked that a lot, and it's it's kind of an unusual story.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, I it was in the mid-80s, I was in my early 20s, and I I was going to, I was in my undergraduate program, and we had to do an internship to get our BA.
8:14
SPEAKER_00: And I had no idea what kind of work I wanted to do in those early years.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: I just knew I wanted to work with children in some way.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Simultaneous to this requirement, I was home one night with my roommate.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: We had the television on, a TV show came across the screen called Something About Amelia.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if you've watched it or any of your listeners, but it's a 90-minute TV made-for-TV movie show movie with Ted Danskin.
8:39
SPEAKER_00: And it's all about a 13-year-old girl who is sexually assaulted by her dad, and he plays her dad.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: And I sat there for 90 minutes or two hours, riveted, my my mouth wide open.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: It was really my first introduction to this crime, this issue.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And something in me stirred.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the movie, I turned to my roommate and I said, That's my life's work.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: You know, I I I don't know why this topic grabbed me, except it did.
9:13
SPEAKER_00: And from there, I began, I got an internship with the Child Assault Prevention Project in Berkeley, and my career began from there.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for that.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: You you sit with really heavy topics, and it takes a really special person, I think, to be able to hold that in the world.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: So I know we have a million things to talk about, but I just start with thank you.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Like really thank you for doing this really important work.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: It's thank you.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: And I I want to just remind everyone, uh yes, I sit with hard topics, but the per the person who really sits with it is the child.
9:53
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
9:55
SPEAKER_00: If if the child lives it, then I feel a responsibility to do everything I can to stop that, to prevent it.
10:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, there was a part in your course that I remember so well, Feather.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna we're gonna put all the links in the show notes for people so that they can find out how to take these courses from you.
10:16
SPEAKER_01: Cause I think they're, I actually really think they're um imperative as parents to be learning how to talk with our kids about these issues.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: And we'll dive into more specifics.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, but there is this part in your in your course that I just love so much where you talked about you were teaching us how to have the hard conversations with child care providers, whether it's camp counselors or babysitters or friends of their your parents of their friends, right?
10:45
SPEAKER_01: The people who were going to have our children in their presence.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: And you're talking about the importance of having those conversations.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: And you said it's uncomfortable to have the conversation, but it's more uncomfortable for your child if something bad happens from not having the conversation.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I say often in my work in working with maternal with moms who are working towards maternal mental health is we do the hard work now so that our children don't have to do it later.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And in many ways, that's what I hear you saying, where you're like, I feather, sit with the heart, hard stuff, but our who really sits with it is the kids.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: And is that that's such an interesting shift in perspective, that kind of taking responsibility in that way so that our kids don't have to feel confusion and pain and discomfort later.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: And they will because they're humans and we're all humans and we all feel pain and confusion.
11:39
SPEAKER_00: But so you're right, yes, we we want to minimize what I really mean underneath that statement, and I'll ask it right now to all your listeners, and they can digest it as we go along, is are you willing to feel a little uncomfortable?
11:56
SPEAKER_00: So your children never have to.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: Now, you just said the same thing, Kate.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: Never have to.
12:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes, kids, we're all gonna feel uncomfortable in life.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: But what I mean underneath that is so hopefully they do not experience sexual assault because you are creating this barrier around them as best you can.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about control later, but as best you can to minimize those risks.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: And I do want to say for anyone listening who is a survivor of child sex abuse and is a mom or dad or a grandma, whomever is listening, that there is, we all acknowledge that there is an extra sometimes difficulty in doing this work, in having these conversations, in educating your children because of your own trauma.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: And that's where you too come in to help people, right?
12:43
SPEAKER_00: And to do your own work so you're we don't have to pass this crime down to children through families.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: So that's so helpful.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm actually I'm curious.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Um if you what can you tell listeners that do have a history of trauma that might not realize kind of they have a blind spot around talking even to their kids around sexuality, other than getting support that they need to move through the trauma?
13:13
SPEAKER_02: Do you have any like when you're talking to parents to help them understand that they have a blind spot?
13:19
SPEAKER_02: Do you have language you use around that?
13:22
SPEAKER_00: That they have a blind, let me clarify, Debs, that they have a blind spot around approaching the topic of CS of child sex abuse?
13:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, or around or even the topic of sex, like and like just talking to their kids about their body parts, talking to other adults, like right, yeah.
13:40
SPEAKER_00: So I'm really glad we're bringing this up because often people don't understand the relationship between educating children about healthy sexual development, about their bodies, about um sexual health, etc., and sexual abuse.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: Like what do they have to do with each other?
13:59
SPEAKER_00: And what we know is that there is a direct relationship between the reduction of vulnerability and sex abuse and the education that you give your children.
14:11
SPEAKER_00: So I would say that this blind spot is not specific to survivors.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: It's parents just are so uncomfortable talking about sex for so many reasons.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: There's barriers, and it's not even sex that you have to talk about, but this can begin the first time you change your baby's diaper.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Right?
14:31
SPEAKER_00: By calling their vulva a vulva and using the correct terminology, the penis, and the right words from day one, letting your baby know you're you're now cleaning their rectum and beginning these conversations day one.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's not this sit-down conversation with your teens, like you have teens now, and you're just now talking about sex.
14:52
SPEAKER_00: That's way too late.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: The culture we live in now, it's children need this information earlier.
14:58
SPEAKER_00: So, what I find the blind spots or the barriers are that parents don't have the language.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: They are often, I mean, it's important to look at your own childhood and your own family life and how you were raised around sexuality, right?
15:15
SPEAKER_00: That's so important.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Parents fear that if they talk about sexual development or sexuality with children as they mature, that it's going to make them go do it, which is furthest from the truth.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of myths around this.
15:32
SPEAKER_00: And parents don't have the not the the information how to, but the good news is there are so many resources, there are so many wonderful books to help parents get these conversations started and have this open, honest culture in your home so that your children come to you.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: So the question I'll ask again, and you two can answer this, and anyone listening, is who do you want to be the person who educates your child about sexual development and sexuality?
16:04
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking just here about intercourse, you know, heterosexual sex.
16:09
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about menstruation, we're talking about pornography, we're talking about all the questions kids hear on the playground in third and second grade.
16:18
unknown: Yes.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: Who do you want to be that person who answers those questions?
16:22
SPEAKER_01: I have two anecdotal reflections for you that again, I'm sort of weaving in what I got from your class.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: My daughters are now almost 14.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: I have one who's 13, about to turn 14, and I have a 16-year-old.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: So it's been a while, and we're in the prime of that sort of sexual development, sexuality and actual sex curiosity and development.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: Two anecdotes.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: One is that you ask this question in the course.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: And my husband and I talked a lot about sharing the sharing the role as the educators of daughters, right?
17:02
SPEAKER_01: That that Jamie really wanted to be playing a part in having these important conversations.
17:07
SPEAKER_01: So I have this memory of walking into our bedroom one night, and we had, you know, Kinley, who at the time was probably six, maybe younger, five, maybe three and five or four and six, and two girls on either end.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: And he's reading this book about body parts.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: And he's literally reading about the different parts of the of the vagina, right?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: The vulva, see, right?
17:36
SPEAKER_01: And right, different body parts, but also like the menstruation cycle.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: And he's literally reading from this book to my two to young daughters.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: So that's one memory I have.
17:46
SPEAKER_01: The second memory I have is you talked about that the best time to tell your children about sex and quote unquote how babies are made is when they're young enough that it's not an emotional issue for them.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: And I may be saying that the wrong way.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: So I want to give you time to reflect in a moment, but I remember at family dinner.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: And we like got it, our kid, again, they were little, they were like three and five or four and six.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: And we were like, okay, we're gonna have this conversation.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: And my oldest daughter, you know, they're both sitting there, like, I don't know, cutting their getting their food on their plate.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: And we sort of really get practical because that's what you talked about, just use facts and correct language and get really practical.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And my oldest daughter, who's six, is like, isn't this conversation a little inappropriate for the dinner table?
18:34
SPEAKER_01: And we were like, nope.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: And then my youngest daughter is like, can you please pass the ketchup?
18:39
SPEAKER_01: Meaning, I felt like there was going to be this huge, weird, tense conversation.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: And they were just like, okay, moving on.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're talking about here, Kate, is that it's the adults who have all of the stuff around this topic.
18:56
SPEAKER_00: We bring it to children when we start with your three-year-old who says, Pass the catch up, that is before they have an emotional attachment to any of this knowledge.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I used to say in my work, parents would ask, when is the best time to start talking about sexual development?
19:14
SPEAKER_00: And we would always say, when they ask the questions.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: Well, I really that's a little updated for me now.
19:19
SPEAKER_00: It's before they ask.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: It's if we are responsible for keeping them safe and taking the burden off of them, I know some of your listeners who might be watching can see all my books, but they're all listening to my site.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: All of these beautiful children's books can help answer those questions and start the conversations before they happen.
19:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, before the children ask the questions.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: And really the reason behind this is in terms of sex abuse, vulnerability, the more information children have, the more they can name if something does happen to them that's unsafe, the more or the less vulnerable they are to a potential older youth or an adult who might be grooming your child or your family.
20:06
SPEAKER_00: And that's what we know from the research and from my work, sitting with men who sexually abuse children is that they're looking for kids who don't have this information, who they can introduce it.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: They can be the the 20-year-old babysitter can be the one to say, let's play this game.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: And there's so many reasons it's important.
20:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, children have the right to medically accurate information about their bodies and about life, but also to reduce vulnerability.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
20:34
SPEAKER_02: And we go into it in detail in my workshop.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Deb.
20:38
SPEAKER_02: No, I was just reflecting.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: You're saying knowledge is power.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: And whatever it is.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: So I have a question.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: What um what are some key things that you want our listeners to know that you bring to a workshop?
20:52
SPEAKER_02: And maybe you can even start with the term grooming, because not everyone might know that term.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: So key points.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: I would say Can I ask a clarifying question before you go into that?
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Can you describe to us what your definition of sexual abuse assault might be?
21:16
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: That's because I think we want a context for this answer.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: We could yeah, it's important to start with that really.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: So sexual abuse is or sexual assault is any an incest is any sexual contact with a minor.
21:34
SPEAKER_00: Period.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: And that can be an older youth with a younger child, so or an adult with a younger child, or between two children where there's a two to three year age difference, or there's manipulation, coercion, secrecy, blame, all of that involved.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: So often people just think it's the myth is this stranger in the bushes who's this big man in a coat who molests children.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Let's bust that myth right now.
22:02
SPEAKER_00: One third to one half of all sex abuse occurs between children.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: So what we're talking about here today, really the strategies or that I do in my workshops has to do with kids and kids.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:15
SPEAKER_00: And so there's contact behavior where a child's body is touched physically, sexually, but there's many behaviors that are included when they are not touched.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: Sexual comments, having a child view other people being sexual together, but the child's not touched.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Masturbating in front of a child.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: And I know these are hard to listen to, these details, but this is what's included and important to know.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Including children in sexual images, which people called child pornography.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: We don't use that term anymore.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: There's no such thing as child pornography, right?
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Porn is adult entertainment that's separate from children when a child is involved in sexual activity where there's a video or an image or a picture.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: We call this child sexual abuse imagery.
23:06
SPEAKER_00: And the language is so important.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's a general definition.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: So helpful.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the key points is what you wanted to know.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: So what I would say is my my ingredients for the best you can do in prevention in your home is for you to learn the facts.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: One is what we just talked about, the definition, for you to learn about age-appropriate sexual behavior between children versus concerning behavior, and for you to learn about grooming.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: And I'll answer that if you'd like.
23:46
SPEAKER_00: The other piece, part of the ingredients, is educating your children, giving them language, but most importantly, which I do want to make sure we have time for, is building this prevention team of caregivers.
23:59
SPEAKER_00: So those are the key points that I talk about and that I educate.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: Also, that it is not your child's job to manage your feelings or anybody else's.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: It's their job to manage their own and yours to help them.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: But when an adult perpetrator is looking for a vulnerable child, they are often looking for those kids who believe and feel and have been raised to take care of other people.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean empathy here, but I mean take care of other people's feelings to their own deficit.
24:37
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: So those are some of the key points.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: Um it's so good.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, I want us to dive into those two things, Feather, the the grooming question Deb had, and also the how to create your team, right?
24:53
SPEAKER_01: Your support team.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Before that, can you clarify for us?
24:59
SPEAKER_01: Because I think this is a question I certainly hear, I think it's come up in our podcast in other episodes too.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: You're talking about, you know, adult on child sexual abuse.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: And you're also talking about an older child with younger children, right?
25:17
SPEAKER_01: So I guess my question can you help us understand the difference between healthy, normal curiosity and abusive behavior?
25:30
SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Between children.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: So healthy curiosity, which is most children have, it's totally normal.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: So important for a parent to know the difference when they walk in on a play date with six-year-olds, right?
25:46
SPEAKER_00: Is when the play and the behavior is short term, it's not an ongoing activity.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: When there's playfulness, when there's the absence of coercion involved, and when the children are of very similar age, chronologically, developmentally, um, maturity-wise, I'll look at yours, let me look at you look at mine, I'll be the doctor, you be the doctor also, you be the nurse.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: There's role-playing, and it's there, even though children can't consent to sexual activity between these two little ones, there is a form of consent because there's no manipulation.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: So if two children of the same age with no manipulation, with that playfulness you're describing, are sort of playing house.
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: Right.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: Let I'm gonna be the, I'm gonna be the mom, you be the dad.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be the dad, you be the mom.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna be, you know, let's pretend we're married, whatever that is.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be the mom, you're gonna be the mom.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: Two two people playing grown-ups, right?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: I think is what I'm saying.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:56
SPEAKER_01: And there's exploration of body parts or touching of some sort.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: Again, I understand, I want us to really clarify because I think as moms of young children, we often get so confused and and scared in moments where we see our kids behaving in ways that mimics adults, right?
27:18
SPEAKER_00: So and I'm so glad you said that because the adults' reaction to finding children, exploring, and I often hear parents say, I caught them.
27:28
SPEAKER_00: Let's shift that language.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: There's no catching.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: There, their children eat solid food, they crawl, they walk, they ride a bicycle, they learn to read, they explore genitals.
27:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just within all of their development.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: So looking at genitals, even poking.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, I know people can't see me, but just like poking on top of the vulva and looking in mirrors, that's all part of normal exploration.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: Where it crosses the line is when the behavior mimics, and that's the word you use, Kate, mimics an adult's sexual activity.
28:07
SPEAKER_00: Five-year-olds, six-year-olds, they don't know how to mimic intercourse.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: Often parents will use the word humping.
28:15
SPEAKER_00: Yes, a child can learn to grind on their stuffed animal because it feels good and that's normal.
28:20
SPEAKER_00: But when the behavior simulates adult sexual activity, then we want to look further into it.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Or when there's any kind of object or body part inserted into a vagina, an anus, except in a mouth, um, etc.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: So it's really exhibiting advanced sexual knowledge is when we go further.
28:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:42
SPEAKER_00: However, it doesn't mean that two little girls who have their legs wide open looking at vaginas, that we say, oh, no problem, I'll be back in an hour.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: We still want to intervene and give boundaries without shame, right?
28:56
SPEAKER_00: Redirecting, discussing body safety rules, making it the conversation healthy, but still redirect.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: I have an anecdote to share on that.
29:08
SPEAKER_02: This was from your course.
29:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I remember feeling so equipped where I walked in on my child and another little boy that, and so I have a girl, and this was a boy girl, and they were the same age, good friends.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: Definitely let me show you mine, you show me yours.
29:27
SPEAKER_02: And they were in the bathroom, and I was in the kitchen, so I was in close proximity, which I think is important as parents to remember that our proximity is really important in all these stages of life.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: And I recognized that they were in the bathroom longer than two people should be using a bathroom.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: And I walked in and there they were, and I and I I remember feeling so comfortable to be like, oh, it looks like there's some curiosity happening here.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: And I went and grabbed a book, and I think it was it's not the stork, um, or something like that.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: And I sat down right there with them on the bathroom floor, and I was like, let's talk about these things, let's talk it out.
30:09
SPEAKER_02: And we just the boy was really involved.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: And my daughter Sage had heard this, had read this book already, but and it was just this normalizing, beautiful moment that there was no shaming, and yeah.
30:22
SPEAKER_02: And I learned that from you.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: And was the other parent okay with you doing that?
30:28
SPEAKER_02: 100%.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: And this parent I happen to know quite well, but I think that that actually is leads to another question that I would struggle with at times because I was a former sexual educator for a long time through Planned Parenthood, and I have been comfortable with this language and talking about it early on, but I often wondered if my kid was going to be the kid that like told everyone, you know, what a wet dream was, you know, or something prematurely.
30:57
SPEAKER_02: And this is for a little bit older.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: But I remember I just basically started telling other parents, like, hey, we're having these conversations at home.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: You do you, but I just want you to know that I think it's important.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: And if you hear it from my kid, that's what's happening.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: And I want them to have accurate information.
31:18
SPEAKER_02: So at least you know, if my kid's sharing it with your kid, they're getting accurate information.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: And most parents were okay with it, but I'm curious as to if you have two any two cents to add to that.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's be perfect, beautiful.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: A plus.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that's that's really that's part of what I mean by the prevention team, which is all of the people your children spend time with who agree and are like-minded to have conversations with children when it comes up around these boundaries and around body safety, et cetera.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I mean, then the parent can choose, no, I'm not comfortable with that.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: Please don't.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: Or they can say, yes, let's do this together.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: And that's a whole piece of the training that I do.
32:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember if I was doing those role plays when you attended, but role playing out how to have a conversation with another parent, mom, dad, whomever is the caretaker before your children go on play dates, having conversations with school directors and admin administration about policies in schools, the gymnastics coach, the religious leader, whomever you put your children in the care of, drive away, and trust and hand over your children too, is what I call the prevention team.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: It's getting buy-in and it's getting an implicit, yes, I am like-minded.
32:43
SPEAKER_00: And inadvertently, it's communicating to the world that your child hopefully is off limits.
32:52
SPEAKER_00: Because if you're interviewing a nanny or a babysitter, and we're talking about younger children here, and you're discussing the culture of your home around using correct terminology and we don't keep secrets, and my child doesn't need a bath tonight, or my child does need a bath, whatever is important in your home around these topics, sexual abuse, naming it, prevention.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: If that person sitting across from you has a sexual behavior problem with children, can you you both what's your guess?
33:24
SPEAKER_00: What might happen?
33:27
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna be nervous.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: Right.
33:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and either not take the job, right?
33:34
SPEAKER_01: Or stay as far away from your child in the way that you know they might otherwise.
33:39
SPEAKER_01: I think this is the part that I am so I feel like I'm yelling.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Am I yelling?
33:46
SPEAKER_01: I have this, I have this loud talking.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna like let me sometimes Deb and I are in a hike, and Deb's like, you're being a loud talker.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: So when I get excited, I do that.
33:55
SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna take it down and I keep saying you look at me.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: It's so cute.
33:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, I gotta stop talking so loud.
34:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, feather.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: One of the things that I think we're beginning to move into right now is this difference between focusing and getting anxious about all the things we can't control.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Like for instance, there are adults and older children out there who are for so many reasons prone to to sexually abuse kids, right?
34:23
SPEAKER_01: Predators, predators, right?
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Like we can't we can't control in this moment whether or not they're out there or whether or not they are going to be within the vicinity of our children necessarily.
34:33
SPEAKER_01: But what we can control is how we talk with them or teach our children so that our kids are less likely to be um the predators that they lean look towards.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: Am I saying that right?
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Yes, the the concept is perfect and we can dive into that.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: But if I may talk about the word predator for a moment.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: Please, thank you.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: So I'm just really um sticky about language.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and the word predator, when you think of a predator, what image, and you two are very educated, so this might not be true for you, but what do you think the general public, the image is of a predator?
35:15
SPEAKER_00: It's a scary-looking man.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: So I like to use language that helps people move from the myths to the reality.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: The reality is the person who sexually abuses your child is sitting at your dinner table.
35:32
unknown: Yeah.
35:33
SPEAKER_00: And I don't say this to scare.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: It's just we're going to talk about tools next in just a minute.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Or the person you hand your child over to in gymnastics, or the babysitter, or the coach.
35:43
SPEAKER_00: It's the people closest to us.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: So my preference, just personally, is to not use labels at all.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, sometimes we can't get away from them.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: So I like to, you know, if I have to use a label, I'll say a perpetrator or someone who perpetrated.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: But more, what's more comfortable for me is a person who sexually abused a child, because there's more to a human than their action.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's just my feeling about predator.
36:13
SPEAKER_02: And it's so compassionate because it's seeing the whole person fully.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: And for some people, survivors who have been deeply hurt, they can't go there.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: And I want to acknowledge that right now.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's not the seat I sit in.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing this from an educational perspective.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: And I have worked with enough humans that have sexually abused children to understand more of the complexities around this.
36:41
SPEAKER_00: So to your question about the control, you're so right, Kate, and both both of you, is that, you know, at some point you early points in your children's life, you just let them go and be in the world.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: What I'm so passionate about and what I offer is do your due diligence.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: Do what the best you can do, which is, in my opinion, and from the work I've done with people who sexually abuse, is for you to have these conversations just like you do or would when you hand your child to someone who's driving them, you give a car seat when they're young, or you hand over the helmet for the bike.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: You get you teach them first, you know, you get swimming lessons.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: All the other ways you approach safety, sexual abuse prevention and body safety is no different.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: So to have a conversation with another parent before your child sleeps over another's home is real can really be put in the same vein as my child's allergic to eggs, please, no omelets for dinner.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: And this conversation is really scary and hard for people.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: But what I often ask is, would you hesitate to tell another parent that your child's allergic to a particular food?
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Would you start to feel like you're going to accuse and they're not going to trust you and that you're, you know, that you're going to offend them?
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Would that be a worry on your mind?
38:12
SPEAKER_01: You're asking that question again.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: Are we willing to be uncomfortable in service of our children?
38:17
unknown: Yes.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: And it really is, you know, I think so many of us haven't learned how to sit with our own discomfort that the idea of having a conversation that's uncomfortable really can put us in this sort of fight, flight, or freeze, right?
38:32
SPEAKER_01: Which is often flight.
38:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get as far away from that potential conversation as I can.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: So I think much of what we're talking about is really interconnected in all of the, you know, it's interesting, both the self-care, how do we take care of ourselves when we're uncomfortable so that we're willing to be uncomfortable, and also the relationship and connection piece.
38:54
SPEAKER_01: What does it look like to be in deep connection with my children?
38:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, what's required is that I'm going to lean in to the hard things with my children, right?
39:02
SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's this really interesting, you know, it's not this having these conversations are not happening in a silo.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not just about the conversations, it's about all the context around them.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: And it, yeah, absolutely.
39:17
SPEAKER_00: You both understand this so well.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so thrilled to see what you took away, you know, from the training.
39:23
SPEAKER_00: And so what you do have control over is making a commitment in your life to have child sexual abuse prevention on your radar and discuss it with anyone who has contact with your children as best you can.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: It's exhausting, it can be, but in those, you know, to yeah, just to commit to bringing that topic up to lowering the risk level.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, around the boundary piece, I'll just say one more part about this is that, you know, the modeling, and I know you both talk about this, modeling for your children, how to do that, because we this whole thing about adults are responsible for protecting children.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: What I find in my workshops is years later, people will come back and say, I'm still teaching my children about body safety.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: And I say, Great, are you also talking to the adults?
40:13
SPEAKER_00: No, that's so hard.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: And the qu another question I ask is, how can we expect your six-year-old, your eight-year-old, whatever age, to look up to an adult and say, no, don't touch my vagina or my private parts or whatever word you use.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: No.
40:35
SPEAKER_00: When we the adults see, and we I know we didn't get into grooming, but see inappropriate behaviors, people crossing boundaries, and we sit there at the dinner table, nervous and anxious, and we don't say a word, but we focus on kids, telling them, giving them these skills, which they need, but we have to do it first.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: If Uncle Joe is rubbing your child's leg and she doesn't want it, help your child say no.
41:03
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm so glad you said that.
41:06
SPEAKER_02: Oh, it brings up another question for me that I get asked all the time.
41:09
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to hear your perspective around nakedness in the house.
41:13
SPEAKER_02: Um, because you're talking about language and education and all these things.
41:18
SPEAKER_02: And then, as we, as Kate just mentioned, you know, how do we show up in our daily life?
41:23
SPEAKER_02: What's your take on that?
41:25
SPEAKER_00: On nudity in a home?
41:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:27
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's a very personal choice.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: I think different cultures have different norms.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, what I say about nudity, as long as body safety rules are being followed, and what that means is rules around touching, rules around secrets, rules around privacy.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: As long as everyone's following them, and as long as the adults are willing to jump on those teachable moments, nudity is perfectly acceptable if that's what you choose and everyone's comfortable.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: You might have a family where one parent is absolutely wants clothes on and another parent's comfortable.
42:07
SPEAKER_00: So you work that out within the family or the child is uncomfortable.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: It's a similar question to when do children stop bathing together, right?
42:16
SPEAKER_00: It's a personal, it's a personal answer to your family.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, often dads will say, Can I can I shower with my five-year-old little girl?
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Which is the stereotype.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: It's the same for you know, moms with opposite sex children.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: And I say, as long as you're comfortable, as long as your child's comfortable, as long as when your little girl says to you, Daddy, what's that?
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Pointing to your penis, can I squeeze it?
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Can I pull it?
42:45
SPEAKER_00: Why is it hairy?
42:46
SPEAKER_00: What where's mine?
42:47
SPEAKER_00: Can I get one?
42:48
SPEAKER_00: All of these questions that are so normal.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: As long as dad is willing to say, Let's talk about it.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: No, you can't touch it.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: That's my penis.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Yours vagina vulva is yours, and no one's allowed to touch your, and you go back to the language for the child, then nudity becomes a perfect teachable moment in a home for these discussions.
43:11
SPEAKER_02: Oh, what a beautiful answer.
43:14
SPEAKER_02: And it keeps it very um, it's like a protocol, it's like a very clear, we go back to these basic rules, and when we practice them over and over and have that language roll off your tongue, then many scenarios will bring you back to that.
43:29
SPEAKER_02: Right.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: I have to say one more thing about this.
43:32
SPEAKER_00: Please, if there's if there's other adults in that are visiting the home, neighbors, friends, extended family, keep your clothes on.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: If there's other children from other homes, make this, you know, have clothes on.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: And some people say when there's stepparents, when there's blended families with children from other families, it's really best practice and most safe when clothes stay on, even though we know that five.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Mother daughter, mother-son, mother daughter incest is prevalent.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: It's still just one of those boundaries people talk about.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: So good.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: I love this.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: I what I'm hearing you say also, Feather, I want to make sure I'm hearing this right, is it's not, I mean, aside from the very clear, non-negotiable boundaries, right?
44:22
SPEAKER_01: Like you just said, you know, our private parts are my vaginas for me, you know, the debt, the debt, the all that beautiful language you just gave.
44:31
SPEAKER_01: So outside of that, it's really less about the what than the why, right?
44:38
SPEAKER_01: That so to really encourage parents to be reflective and curious, right?
44:44
SPEAKER_01: What is my reasoning for saying no?
44:47
SPEAKER_01: And what is my reasoning for saying yes?
44:49
SPEAKER_01: And again, I want to be clear, outside of the obvious boundaries, those nuanced questions, do my kids still bathe together?
44:56
SPEAKER_01: Do we walk around naked?
44:57
SPEAKER_01: Right, those questions, it's like, let's be inclusive and understand that there is really important safety protocol that educates our kids so that they move into the world as adults, having the language and the empowerment to protect themselves when in dangerous situations?
45:15
SPEAKER_01: Is that an accurate reflection?
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely accurate.
45:18
SPEAKER_00: And you see, there are so many nuances and layers to this is not just when we say child sex abuse, you know, that it's a touch to a child.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: There's so many complexities and layers.
45:31
SPEAKER_00: And I have a question for you too.
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Do is there time for like one more minute to get offered nuances around language?
45:39
SPEAKER_00: Do we have time to do that?
45:40
SPEAKER_01: There's actually a couple of more things I want to make sure we have time for it.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: One is I think because we raised the question about grooming, we need to answer it.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: So if you could talk to that, I know that you have an anecdote for to share, some an empowering story to share, which I would love to maybe we end on that.
45:57
SPEAKER_01: And yes, let's also answer this particular um piece that you just brought up.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: So first I'll give the nuances, then I'll talk about the grooming, and then you remind me what's next.
46:07
SPEAKER_00: So that sounds great.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: So just very briefly, in prevention education for children, adults typically focus on this language.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: We tell children, starting at four years old, young, say no, run, yell, and tell.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: If someone tries to touch your private areas or genitals, whatever words used.
46:28
SPEAKER_00: Those are all excellent skills.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: However, when we look at the nature of the crime and the reality, when a child is sexually assaulted by their father, by their uncle, by their brother, the people closest to them in their home, in their bed, in their family that they rely on and depend on.
46:46
SPEAKER_00: The reality is that most children do not resist and say no.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: Most do not yell in their own home and they do not tell.
46:57
SPEAKER_00: They keep secrets for decades.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: So my belief is that when we're teaching these little humans this information, we must be consistent with the reality of the crime.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: So the nuance is when you're teaching your child about saying no, instead of you should say no, I like to say you have the right to, you are allowed to, you have my permission to say no if you ever get touched in a way on your be specific.
47:28
SPEAKER_00: If someone touches the private areas, your vagina, your penis, etc., or asks you to touch theirs.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: And if you can't say no, this is the important piece.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: If you're too afraid, if your brain freezes, if you're worried, it's not your fault.
47:43
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: And likewise with telling, you have my permission to tell.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: It's important to tell someone you trust.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: But if you got too scared, if the person told you not to, it's okay to tell later and it's not your fault.
47:58
SPEAKER_00: Rather than tell straight away, that's the language I see everywhere.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: Tell right now.
48:04
SPEAKER_00: It's not okay to ever keep a secret.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: Well, the reality is children do.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: So that increases shame.
48:11
SPEAKER_00: So you teach your child, say no and tell, then it happens to them.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: They don't say no, they don't tell, and they're living with the fear that they misbehave because you told them to say no.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
48:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm really, I'm so glad you brought that up because I think we again, it's not just the what, it's the why, right?
48:30
SPEAKER_01: It's not just what we say, it's why do we say it?
48:32
SPEAKER_01: How do we say it?
48:33
SPEAKER_01: And I think that context and those nuances and language, as far as the empowering piece, how do we empower our kids to do what is right for them?
48:43
SPEAKER_01: That's an important distinction.
48:45
SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
48:46
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: So the grooming, grooming, just a very brief definition of grooming, sexual grooming for abuse is it's a methodical process that a person, an older youth or an adult, so a teenager or an adult uses to wear down or desensitize the child to touches, to normalize touches, building a friendship, pulling the child in to feel needed and wanted and cared about, um, and to eventually sexualize the relationship.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: It usually doesn't start with sexual touching, it starts with friendship and rewards and play and getting very close.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: So the child has a need and a desire to be in relationship with that person, whether it's within the family or not.
49:38
SPEAKER_00: What I have am fascinated by is with the people I've spoken with who have offended children, is that very often they are grooming you first.
49:48
SPEAKER_00: That the grooming, the grooming process with the coach will happen asking your husband, Deb, to go out for a beer.
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Right?
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Offering you, Kate, to give extra gymnastic lessons because your child has potential and you don't have to pay for it, don't worry.
50:06
SPEAKER_00: So the grooming occurs with the adults because if a child sees that their caregiver trusts the person, so do they.
50:15
SPEAKER_00: And I talk at length with people who offend about how they groom adults.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: Groom a teacher who abuses, grooms the community of staff in a school to be the teacher of the year, to be the perfect looking best teacher that everybody loves, and then moves to the child.
50:33
SPEAKER_00: So that's just, I mean, I could go on and I do in my workshops, I go through the stages of grooming, whereas the friendship, the reward, the secret, and the touch.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think what's important for that too, and I really we're going to encourage all of our listeners to take your workshop because I think it's so important and to find the other resources you offer is because of course we're not saying that every adult who finds something wonderful about your child is grooming you, right?
51:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's why we want people to learn more from you outside of just this initial conversation, because we also don't want to set our listeners up, which I know you're in line with, but to go out there and start fearing all these adults who are being kind, right?
51:19
SPEAKER_00: No, and the biggest tip I can give here, I'm glad you brought that up, is listen to your gut.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes, the person who cares about your children typically and expresses it will not elicit the red flag feeling in your body, where your palms are sweating, where you're saying, What is going on here?
51:40
SPEAKER_00: That intuition is brilliant and it plays a huge role.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: A person grooming separates your child from you, tries to get time alone.
51:49
SPEAKER_00: People who care about your child and show an interest in your child are not coming from a place of their own self-interest.
51:58
SPEAKER_00: But the truth is, no, people don't offer to babysit your kids free, typically.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: Yes, maybe maybe your mom does.
52:05
SPEAKER_00: But it's really important.
52:06
SPEAKER_00: That's what I meant earlier by learn the facts.
52:09
SPEAKER_00: There's so much information about grooming that you can learn what is and what isn't.
52:14
SPEAKER_02: So great.
52:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, I have a question.
52:17
SPEAKER_02: Yes, do you we this would probably be a really good time for you to share um an empowering story from your experience that I know our listeners would love to hear.
52:28
SPEAKER_00: So this story is about self-worth.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and really children who have deep self-worth are less vulnerable.
52:38
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean a child who has low self-esteem will be abused, okay?
52:41
SPEAKER_00: But self-worth is a huge key here.
52:43
SPEAKER_00: So many years ago, when I was first writing my book Off Limits, I was visiting my family in Florida, and we were all down by the pool.
52:54
SPEAKER_00: And my seven-year-old niece, Bernie, we had just gone swimming, we were sitting on the pool chair together, and I told her that I was writing a book for parents to learn how to teach their kids everything she had learned her whole life around body safety.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: And one of the tools I teach is to play what-if games with your children to stimulate their critical thinking.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: So there we sat at the pool playing what-if games.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: And I asked her questions like, because you don't start with what if someone made you touch their penis?
53:24
SPEAKER_00: That's not how the game should go.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: You start with less uh with you don't have to start with body safety scenarios.
53:30
SPEAKER_00: So I asked questions about what would you do if a kid at school called you a name and hurt your feelings?
53:35
SPEAKER_00: What could you do if you got separated from dad in the grocery store?
53:40
SPEAKER_00: What could you do if you watched another kid at school bullying your really good friend?
53:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's these critical thinking skills to help children in what if scenarios.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: And then after many of those, I said to her, Bernie, what would you do if I touched your private areas?
54:02
SPEAKER_00: So no longer is this abstract.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: What if someone did?
54:06
SPEAKER_00: Which is what I teach in my courses to talk with your kids.
54:09
SPEAKER_00: These are the skills for children.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: I said, What would you do if I did?
54:12
SPEAKER_00: And she giggled.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Seven years old.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: She's sitting two feet from me.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: And she said, You would never do that to me, Auntie Feather.
54:20
SPEAKER_00: And I said, You're right, I wouldn't.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: But let's talk about what you could do, what would you do?
54:25
SPEAKER_00: And she said, I would tell mom and dad.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: And I said, You would, you would tell daddy that I touched your private parts, and her dad is my brother.
54:35
SPEAKER_00: So that's the relationship.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: And she said, Uh-huh.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: And I said, if you told dad that I did that, I would get in really big trouble.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: And she looked me straight in the eyes.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Her hands went like this.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: For those of you who are not watching, look by her shoulders, and she said, That would be your problem, not amazing.
54:58
SPEAKER_00: And I giggled just like you, and then the tears were pouring.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: And I I knew in that moment we had done the best we could with this child educating her.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: That's the control you were talking about before.
55:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
55:11
SPEAKER_00: Is that she was not a child who was abused, but she had learned this self-worth so much.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: I mean, she internalized it because we practiced it with her.
55:22
SPEAKER_00: And that's my hope for all of your children.
55:24
SPEAKER_01: What an amazing story.
55:26
SPEAKER_01: And what a beautiful way to end this conversation.
55:31
SPEAKER_01: Because I think that's what we're going for is empowerment, empowerment for our children, empowering empowerment for us as mothers and parents.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: It's so good, Feather.
55:42
SPEAKER_01: Where can, I mean, we'll list it all in the show notes, but where can people find you?
55:47
SPEAKER_01: What do you have coming up?
55:48
SPEAKER_01: This is a big month.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: April is a big month.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: So you could talk about that for a moment, but let's pull the spotlight back on you.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: Where can our listeners find more of you?
55:56
SPEAKER_00: So my website is parentingsafechildren.com.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: And I'm on Instagram, the same handle, Parenting Safe Children, Facebook.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't really get on Twitter or LinkedIn, even though I'm on there.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm not fond of social media all that much.
56:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, but in those places, and April is Child Abuse Prevention Month.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: And so I have two workshops coming up in April.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: People can join.
56:19
SPEAKER_00: Usually they are done on two separate weekends because they are five hours long.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: I know that's a long time.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: In person or virtual?
56:28
SPEAKER_00: They're all virtual via Zoom.
56:30
SPEAKER_00: So people are coming from countries all over the world.
56:33
SPEAKER_00: So anyone, anywhere, bring your families.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: Five hours is a long time.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: Are you willing to commit that one time for your kids?
56:40
SPEAKER_00: I take you through a journey from I don't want to learn about this all the way to I'm ready to jump in.
56:46
SPEAKER_00: So two weekends in a row, April 22nd and April 29th, is one of the workshops.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: The other, there's a school in Boulder who wants it all in one day.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: So I'm doing it on April 16th, all in one sitting.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: So those are the two dates available in April.
57:05
SPEAKER_02: And what's the ideal age of children that you parent work with the parents?
57:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: So because my focus is on adults taking responsibility any age, what I would tell you at from birth, um, what I would tell you is most parents have young children, but up to about 12 or 13.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: But I welcome anyone because I use examples of grooming with a 16-year-old just as a four-year-old.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
57:34
SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: And last question.
57:38
SPEAKER_01: What do you do, feather, to take care of yourself?
57:42
SPEAKER_01: This is an ongoing question that we ask our um our speakers and our experts that come on here because we really want to remind our listeners that we can't do what we do well in the world and care for those that we care about without taking care of ourselves first.
57:56
SPEAKER_01: So, what do you do to take care of yourself?
57:59
SPEAKER_00: I I love to talk about the most beautiful, loving horse in the world, my horse, Elvis.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: I have a I have a 27-year-old gelding horse, and daily I go out and spend two to three hours with him.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: And it is the greatest gift and joy of my life is to be with this animal that is just honest and brings me to my knees with love.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, what an amazing answer.
58:28
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
58:29
SPEAKER_02: Feather, you are so inspiring and so smart and so beautiful at the way you deliver this really important information.
58:38
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
58:39
SPEAKER_02: I I know you started with this is uncomfortable stuff and listening to you.
58:43
SPEAKER_02: We felt incredibly comfortable.
58:45
SPEAKER_02: Agreed.
58:46
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: You two are doing beautiful work in the world, and I'll keep telling people about you as well.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
58:54
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
58:56
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being on our podcast.
58:58
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you, I'm sure.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'm sure.
59:01
SPEAKER_01: Hey you guys, it's Kate.
59:03
SPEAKER_01: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
59:05
SPEAKER_01: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
59:08
SPEAKER_01: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
59:13
SPEAKER_01: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: So take a minute.
59:27
SPEAKER_01: We'd be so grateful.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.