Latest / Wrongful Conviction / Introducing - Undisclosed: TJ Weekly - Jason Flom

Transcript

Introducing - Undisclosed: TJ Weekly - Jason Flom · Wrongful Conviction

0:22
Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to Undisclosed Toward Justice, our weekly episode.
0:26
Speaker 1: I'm here as always with my colleague and Pill host
0:28
Speaker 1: Colin Miller. Hey, Colin, how are you doing?
0:30
Speaker 2: Doing great? How about yourself?
0:31
Speaker 1: I'm well, I'm well. I am very excited that we
0:34
Speaker 1: have a very special guest on this week, who I
0:37
Speaker 1: think is the Is it the first time? Maybe he's
0:39
Speaker 1: joining us, Colin, I believe so, okay, and it's a
0:43
Speaker 1: big get. It's a big get for us. We're welcoming
0:46
Speaker 1: on our show this week. Jason Flohm.
0:49
Speaker 3: Hi, Jason, Hi, Ravia, Hi Colin. How you doing. Oh,
0:52
Speaker 3: we already know, because you already asked you you're still
0:54
Speaker 3: doing good five seconds ago. You're doing good. You're probably
0:56
Speaker 3: still doing good.
0:57
Speaker 2: Might have changed the mood in a few seconds there.
0:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, no, Hey, we are so excited to
1:03
Speaker 1: have you on. We know you have a super busy schedule.
1:04
Speaker 1: Anybody who is familiar with criminal justice, media advocacy, innocence work,
1:11
Speaker 1: I mean, Jason, you are a very well known entity
1:14
Speaker 1: in this space, but your career mostly was in the
1:19
Speaker 1: music industry as an executive. I mean, you were the
1:21
Speaker 1: founder of Lava Records, but also the chairman of Atlantic Records,
1:25
Speaker 1: Version Records, Capital Music Group. Then you started Lava for
1:28
Speaker 1: Good and Lava for Good for folks who know I
1:31
Speaker 1: mean like the brand. Wrongful Conviction is your brand. You
1:34
Speaker 1: know you're wearing the T shirt, but that's as a
1:36
Speaker 1: powerful brand and you've been doing it for years and
1:39
Speaker 1: under the Lava for Good label, you have produced so
1:42
Speaker 1: many shows around justice and law and I am fascinated
1:47
Speaker 1: with your story and our listeners don't know it, but
1:49
Speaker 1: I want to know how you went from being, you know,
1:53
Speaker 1: a music producer executive to this work, which is not
1:57
Speaker 1: even close to being as glamorous as what you have done.
2:00
Speaker 3: You're lying, it's kind of the opposite. I guess. Oh,
2:04
Speaker 3: it's funny. Robber, you know many years ago it must
2:06
Speaker 3: have been. It was before COVID, so I don't know
2:09
Speaker 3: six years ago or so. I remember there was a
2:12
Speaker 3: week when I went down to death Row in Texas
2:15
Speaker 3: on a Monday to visit Rob Will. It was the
2:17
Speaker 3: first time I visited him. We featured him on the
2:20
Speaker 3: Wrongful Conviction podcast and there's been a lot of media
2:24
Speaker 3: around his case. It's an outrageous case and he's an
2:26
Speaker 3: incredible person. So Anyway, I went down there and visited
2:30
Speaker 3: him on death Row, and then I flew to LA
2:32
Speaker 3: because it was Grammy Week, so I was out there
2:35
Speaker 3: for all the festivities and all the different fancy parties
2:38
Speaker 3: and whatnot they have there, and I ended up at
2:40
Speaker 3: the Grammys. I went with my son that year, and
2:42
Speaker 3: I taught my sign I would get seats that would
2:44
Speaker 3: be very good seats in the sort of tenth throw
2:47
Speaker 3: or whatever it was, right. But then what I showed
2:51
Speaker 3: him I shouldn't admit this on the ear, is that
2:54
Speaker 3: when during the commercial breaks, you could just get up
2:56
Speaker 3: and go to whatever seat you want because most of
2:58
Speaker 3: the people sitting in those seats are seats, right. So
3:01
Speaker 3: you go to someone who looks like they have a
3:02
Speaker 3: suit that they bought at a very inexpensive outlet, let's
3:06
Speaker 3: just say, and you go, excuse me, you're in my seat,
3:09
Speaker 3: and they invariably get up and leave, and next thing
3:12
Speaker 3: you know, we end up sitting in the front row
3:14
Speaker 3: next to pal McCartney. Where the hell it is? Right?
3:16
Speaker 3: And so.
3:18
Speaker 1: I'm going to file that information away just in case
3:21
Speaker 1: it comes in handy one day.
3:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, they changed the thing now now they made tables,
3:24
Speaker 3: so the stars all sit at the tables with drinks
3:27
Speaker 3: and stuff, and it's a better setup for them. But
3:29
Speaker 3: back then you could do this and obvious seem to
3:31
Speaker 3: be the only one that was doing it. But I
3:33
Speaker 3: had this revelation at that moment. I was like, Wow,
3:35
Speaker 3: what a week because this was Sunday night, right, So
3:37
Speaker 3: I was like death row to the front row, like
3:39
Speaker 3: literally like one week. So yeah, and that's sort of
3:43
Speaker 3: a very sort of perfect example of the crazy dichotomy
3:47
Speaker 3: of my life. But I got into this, Robbie because
3:50
Speaker 3: when I was thirty two years old, I was getting
3:53
Speaker 3: in a taxi and there was a newstand and I
3:55
Speaker 3: wanted something to read because back then there was no
3:58
Speaker 3: like messing around on your phone and doing you know,
4:00
Speaker 3: wordal or Instagram or whatever we do, and so I
4:05
Speaker 3: wanted the Times. It was sold out and I picked
4:07
Speaker 3: up the post, which is not something I had ever
4:09
Speaker 3: done before or never or since or never will do again,
4:13
Speaker 3: but it was what was available, and I wanted something
4:16
Speaker 3: to read, and I was obviously meant to read it
4:18
Speaker 3: because it was a story that caught my eye about
4:20
Speaker 3: a kid named Stephen Lennon who was serving fifteen to
4:22
Speaker 3: life for a non violent first defense, cocaine possession charge,
4:25
Speaker 3: and a maxim security prison in New York State. The
4:27
Speaker 3: reason it was in the paper was because his mother
4:30
Speaker 3: surely had been trying to get clemency from Governor Mario
4:32
Speaker 3: Cuomo and had been turned down, even though the warden
4:37
Speaker 3: had written a letter of support the sentence of judge
4:39
Speaker 3: and even Geraldine Ferraro with those of you who are
4:41
Speaker 3: old enough to remember or remember it was the first
4:43
Speaker 3: woman to ever get a nomination to be vice president
4:45
Speaker 3: from one of the major political parties of the United States.
4:48
Speaker 3: So this was a headline and so I caught my
4:51
Speaker 3: attention because it had drugs in prison and at both
4:53
Speaker 3: things of which I was fascinated by. Still am but
4:57
Speaker 3: my drug days are forty years behind me. But but
5:00
Speaker 3: he was thirty two, I was thirty two. He had
5:02
Speaker 3: been in prison for eight years. I had been sober
5:04
Speaker 3: for almost eight years at that point in time, and
5:05
Speaker 3: I was like, this definitely could have been me. So
5:10
Speaker 3: I decided to see if I could do something about it.
5:11
Speaker 3: Knowing absolutely nothing about anything about drug laws or what
5:15
Speaker 3: any of this stuff, it just struck me as so outrageous.
5:18
Speaker 3: Fifteen of life, nonviolent first offense, cocaine possession charge. I'm like,
5:25
Speaker 3: so I got the only Crembel defense latter I knew
5:29
Speaker 3: at the time was a guy in Bob Kalina. He
5:30
Speaker 3: represented Stone Table Palace at Schedule, both of whom I
5:33
Speaker 3: had signed, both of whom were getting arrested like weekly
5:35
Speaker 3: in those days. So I was like, Bob, can you help?
5:39
Speaker 3: He goes, no, there's nothing you can do. I said,
5:40
Speaker 3: do me a favor, because by now I had called
5:42
Speaker 3: the kid's mother on the phone. Katie was the same
5:44
Speaker 3: age as I was. I had called Shirley on the
5:46
Speaker 3: phone and spoken to her. He agreed to take the
5:49
Speaker 3: case pro bono as a favorite to me. He said,
5:51
Speaker 3: I won't win, but I'll try, and I go great.
5:54
Speaker 3: So six months later we end up in a courtroom
5:57
Speaker 3: in Malone, New York, up by the Canadian border. Still
6:00
Speaker 3: had a mullet and purple Doc Martins, this is how
6:02
Speaker 3: long ago this was. And the judge is this old
6:07
Speaker 3: guy with white hair. This is not going to go
6:10
Speaker 3: all I'm saying to myself, and he looked like Ted
6:12
Speaker 3: Forsythe and the arguments go back and forth, back and forth.
6:15
Speaker 3: I have no idea what I don't I just known
6:18
Speaker 3: Shirley Lennon's mom is squeezing my hand so tired, I'm
6:21
Speaker 3: cutting off circulation and she's kind off the circulation. And
6:23
Speaker 3: then the judge bangs that cavel down and says the
6:27
Speaker 3: motion is granted. And I was like, huh wow. And
6:30
Speaker 3: then Bob comes scurrying over in his three piece suit,
6:32
Speaker 3: and know, he's kind of overweight, and you know, so
6:34
Speaker 3: picture picture what your picture you're picturing him? And anyway,
6:38
Speaker 3: and so he comes sort of bustling over and I
6:41
Speaker 3: was like, Bob, what happened? And he goes, we won.
6:43
Speaker 3: I was like we what? And he goes, we won,
6:46
Speaker 3: and I was like, that's incredible, you know, and they
6:48
Speaker 3: sent the kid home and I was like, Okay, now
6:51
Speaker 3: I know what to do with the rest of my life.
6:52
Speaker 3: And that's how it happened. I've never stopped.
6:55
Speaker 1: Had you at that point had any interaction yourself with
6:57
Speaker 1: the criminal legal system.
6:59
Speaker 3: Almost, I mean, it's long enough ago statue limitations. You're
7:04
Speaker 3: a lawyer, Yeah, I think we're I had been.
7:08
Speaker 1: Where's the body buried?
7:09
Speaker 3: Then I'd had cops pointing guns at me when I
7:12
Speaker 3: was doing something I really shouldn't have been doing. And
7:17
Speaker 3: for some reason, probably the color of my skin, the
7:20
Speaker 3: zip code I lived in. They didn't search all four
7:23
Speaker 3: of us. They searched me into other guys and not
7:27
Speaker 3: the other guy who were on the street. And the
7:30
Speaker 3: last guy was the guy they should have searched, and
7:33
Speaker 3: had they, I would have ended up in jail for sure.
7:36
Speaker 3: And so you know, I came close and there was
7:40
Speaker 3: no excuse for it. I shouldn't have been putting myself
7:42
Speaker 3: in those type of positions, but I did. And look,
7:44
Speaker 3: let's face it too, like I got into, you know,
7:47
Speaker 3: substance abuse issues, and you know when you get into
7:50
Speaker 3: especially I was, I had some issues with Columbian marching powder,
7:55
Speaker 3: let's call it. And so you know, when you do that, though,
7:58
Speaker 3: invariably you can be you wrapped up in the system
8:01
Speaker 3: because when kids, and I was a kid, go and
8:04
Speaker 3: they all are doing it, and then they're like, somebody
8:06
Speaker 3: go get it, and we'll get a volume discount, right,
8:09
Speaker 3: and we'll I'll split it up. Now all of a sudden,
8:11
Speaker 3: they can get you.
8:12
Speaker 1: For distribution, right. Yeah.
8:14
Speaker 3: And so I was in the wrong place at the
8:16
Speaker 3: wrong time so many times. And that's why I say
8:20
Speaker 3: it could have been me.
8:30
Speaker 1: This summer, I foresee a lot of financial juggling. I've
8:33
Speaker 1: got a grand baby on the way. That's right, you
8:35
Speaker 1: heard me, right, I'm going to be a grandma, and
8:38
Speaker 1: my second born is heading off to college. Let's just
8:41
Speaker 1: say that there's going to be a lot of negotiations
8:43
Speaker 1: done with my budget. But I know I'll be able
8:45
Speaker 1: to manage it all because I use Monarch. Monarch is
8:48
Speaker 1: a personal finance app that tracks everything accounts, investments, savings, goals,
8:53
Speaker 1: and spending. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent,
8:57
Speaker 1: but Monarch helps you set goals. It helps you map
8:59
Speaker 1: up big purchases and see if you're actually on track
9:02
Speaker 1: before it's too late to adjust. You can ask Monarch's
9:05
Speaker 1: AI assistant anything but your finances, like how much did
9:08
Speaker 1: I spend on travel last summer? Or can I afford
9:10
Speaker 1: this vacation without touching my savings. You can spot things
9:13
Speaker 1: you wouldn't even think to look for with AI insights,
9:16
Speaker 1: like has your spending gone off or is it just inflation?
9:19
Speaker 1: And you can get a heads up on what's happening
9:21
Speaker 1: with your money with the AI weekly Recap. It flags
9:24
Speaker 1: spending spikes, net worth shifts, and upcoming expenses and when
9:28
Speaker 1: you're going out, you can split the check without the
9:30
Speaker 1: headache with Monarch's bill split. All you have to do
9:33
Speaker 1: is scan the receipt. Everyone claims what they got and
9:35
Speaker 1: then settles up. No separate app needed. Undisclosed listeners can
9:39
Speaker 1: get their first year of Monarch Core for half off
9:42
Speaker 1: just fifty dollars with promo code undisclosed. Use code undisclosed
9:46
Speaker 1: at Monarch dot com to get your first year of
9:49
Speaker 1: Monarch Core half off at just fifty dollars. That's fifty
9:53
Speaker 1: percent off your first year at Monarch dot com with
9:56
Speaker 1: code undisclosed.
10:09
Speaker 2: You've discussed including just now your music world and the
10:15
Speaker 2: Wrongful Conviction World coinciding and coming together, and I wonder
10:19
Speaker 2: recently on the podcasts, I discussed how over the past
10:23
Speaker 2: decade or so, there's been a rash of cases in
10:26
Speaker 2: which prosecutors have presented lyrics, typically rap lyrics that were
10:31
Speaker 2: authored by defendants to prove this is a drug kingpin,
10:35
Speaker 2: they're committing these violent crimes, etc. And now a few states,
10:39
Speaker 2: most recently Maryland, have passed laws. Maryland's laws called the
10:42
Speaker 2: PACE Act Protecting Artists Creative Expression Act, banning the use
10:47
Speaker 2: of music lyrics against the defendant trial, and so I
10:50
Speaker 2: wonder you know, Jason, in your backgrounds in music and
10:53
Speaker 2: your innocence work, what is your thought about these prosecutors
10:57
Speaker 2: using lyrics authored by I defend into try on this
11:02
Speaker 2: trend of states now banning it.
11:04
Speaker 3: Well, it's really interesting timing for us to be having
11:07
Speaker 3: this conversation because last week Texas executed James Broadnax, who
11:12
Speaker 3: I believe everybody knew that was involved, was innocent of
11:16
Speaker 3: the crime he was convicted of. And I say that
11:19
Speaker 3: because he was convicted largely because of lyrics that he
11:22
Speaker 3: had written when he was a kid, and in his case,
11:25
Speaker 3: his cousin had confessed to the crime, and the physical
11:31
Speaker 3: evidence showed that his cousin wasn't lying right, he wasn't
11:35
Speaker 3: being heroic and taking a fall. He was a guy
11:38
Speaker 3: that did it and James didn't do it. But because
11:40
Speaker 3: he had written these lyrics, you know, eons ago, they
11:44
Speaker 3: went ahead and executed him with not a care in
11:47
Speaker 3: the world. So sometimes I think these people are so
11:51
Speaker 3: sick that they get an extra thrill out of executing
11:53
Speaker 3: people that they think or maybe or are innocent. I
11:56
Speaker 3: don't know. I mean, it's so sinister. I can't even
11:58
Speaker 3: figure it out. But to your question, I think it's
12:02
Speaker 3: high time that we, you know, got to a place
12:05
Speaker 3: of sanity where lyrics are disconnected from anything to do
12:12
Speaker 3: in the criminal legal system. They aren't evidence of anything
12:15
Speaker 3: except maybe creativity or the lack thereof, right. I mean,
12:20
Speaker 3: there's good lyrics, there's bad lyrics, there's vile that lyrics.
12:23
Speaker 3: There's every kind of lyrics under the sun. It doesn't
12:26
Speaker 3: mean a damn thing. That's like saying someone wrote a
12:29
Speaker 3: novel where there was a murder, and therefore they must
12:31
Speaker 3: be a murderer, because how else would that thought pop
12:33
Speaker 3: in their head. It's so ridiculous. Or movies, right, or anything.
12:39
Speaker 3: And so it's one of these things. In Robbie you
12:42
Speaker 3: know this well too, Like I mean, we take our
12:45
Speaker 3: victories where we can get them, and you know, we
12:49
Speaker 3: hope that Who is it Brian Stevens that said the
12:52
Speaker 3: arc of the world universe events towards justice? Or is
12:55
Speaker 3: that Martin Luther King? That's one other King? I think
12:56
Speaker 3: so those two have a lot in common. But so yeah,
13:00
Speaker 3: I think the Maryland thing was a big win. My
13:03
Speaker 3: friend Diana Lapolte was involved on that. She's a you know,
13:07
Speaker 3: phenomenal music business lawyer who else is very involved in
13:09
Speaker 3: civil rights work. So shout out to Dina.
13:12
Speaker 1: So Jason you you were involved in innocence work well
13:15
Speaker 1: before I think this country and most people understood the
13:18
Speaker 1: concept of innocence and how it operates. And I think
13:21
Speaker 1: that's like Cereal kind of brought that to the forefront
13:24
Speaker 1: in the last fifteen years or so. I mean, to
13:26
Speaker 1: this day, what I've discovered is outside of the US,
13:29
Speaker 1: you know, innocence still really is not understood as a concept,
13:33
Speaker 1: even my legal practitioners and advocates. I've spoken to folks
13:35
Speaker 1: from around the world who have said to me, can
13:38
Speaker 1: you come and train lawyers and advocates in other countries
13:41
Speaker 1: on how to do innocence work because we don't we
13:44
Speaker 1: don't have it here. But you've been doing this for
13:46
Speaker 1: a long time. However, after Cereal arrived on the scene,
13:49
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, is that what got you
13:52
Speaker 1: into the podcast space.
13:53
Speaker 3: I wasn't an early adopter of Cereal. Strangely enough, Oh okay,
13:59
Speaker 3: I was well aware of it, and I'd read about it,
14:01
Speaker 3: but I didn't. I don't. I think I was late
14:03
Speaker 3: to the game and listening and probably fifty or one
14:06
Speaker 3: hundred million people listened to it before I did. It's
14:08
Speaker 3: incredible what that was literally a cultural touchstone. It almost
14:13
Speaker 3: sort of not a revolutionary, but almost created the genre.
14:18
Speaker 3: And so yeah, yeah, I think what year was that,
14:23
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen? Yeah, right, So then I had had a
14:25
Speaker 3: couple of different people ask me about doing a podcast,
14:29
Speaker 3: but you know, I hadn't really picked up on the
14:32
Speaker 3: queue yet. And then in twenty sixteen, I was in
14:35
Speaker 3: a meeting with a friend of mine, was being introduced
14:38
Speaker 3: to this guy and he, you know, he heard me
14:40
Speaker 3: proselytizing about the Innocence work and everything like I do,
14:44
Speaker 3: and he said, you know, you should really do a podcast.
14:46
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, you're not the first guy
14:48
Speaker 3: that said that, and he goes, yeah, but I'm in
14:49
Speaker 3: the podcast business. I was like, oh, okay, let's get
14:53
Speaker 3: to work. So that's how it started. It literally was
14:55
Speaker 3: as random as that, and so it's been it's been
14:59
Speaker 3: an incre credible thing. I mean, the Wrongful Conviction podcast
15:02
Speaker 3: is now five hundred and seventy something episodes in I
15:07
Speaker 3: don't know, sixty million or so downloads, and it's reached
15:11
Speaker 3: into the halls of power. I mean, I'm very proud
15:13
Speaker 3: of the impact that's had on individual cases that we
15:16
Speaker 3: know about. And obviously it never just takes a podcast.
15:19
Speaker 3: It takes a village, right, It takes attorneys and other
15:23
Speaker 3: media and all sorts of stuff to undo one of
15:26
Speaker 3: these disasters. But it has had a significant enough impact
15:32
Speaker 3: that in many cases we've had either the person who's
15:35
Speaker 3: wrong for the convicted who then was freed, or their
15:38
Speaker 3: legal team cite us as having been an important part
15:43
Speaker 3: of the effort to free them. And that means the
15:46
Speaker 3: world to me. I've gotten calls from the courthouse steps.
15:49
Speaker 3: Sometimes I get facetimes from people right when they walk
15:51
Speaker 3: out on their attorney's phones or their their you know,
15:54
Speaker 3: their sister's phone or whoever. And one of them just
15:57
Speaker 3: called me, actually, Freddie Brinkley. But the amazing thing to
16:00
Speaker 3: me is that it's reached into the halls of power.
16:02
Speaker 3: You know, I remember, I think you'll get a kick.
16:05
Speaker 3: And we know that there have been bills written at
16:07
Speaker 3: least three states, because we know about the three where
16:10
Speaker 3: the legislators that wrote those bills that were signed to
16:13
Speaker 3: the law have cited one of our podcasts as the
16:15
Speaker 3: reason why they were inspired to write these bills that
16:18
Speaker 3: made the system a little fairer and better, amazingly Indiana
16:21
Speaker 3: and Washington State. But I'll tell you one funny aside
16:24
Speaker 3: is that I was on the phone with the chief
16:27
Speaker 3: council and a governor's office in a southern state some
16:31
Speaker 3: time ago. And this is years ago, and she was new,
16:35
Speaker 3: so I didn't know her. But I was advocating for
16:37
Speaker 3: a clemency for a couple of people whose cases we
16:40
Speaker 3: had featured on our show. And I had the attorney
16:43
Speaker 3: for one of these men on the phone with us,
16:46
Speaker 3: and we're laying out our whole reasons why they should
16:49
Speaker 3: get the governor's attention, and she goes, you know, this
16:53
Speaker 3: reminds me of this podcast I started listening to recently,
16:55
Speaker 3: you know, because it's pretty good. You know, they do this,
16:59
Speaker 3: they tell these stories kind of like you guys are
17:01
Speaker 3: telling me now, Like they lay out the whole case
17:03
Speaker 3: and they talked to the wrong and she's like, I
17:06
Speaker 3: can't remember what it's called. And I'm like, I'm like,
17:08
Speaker 3: her name was Leslie. I like Leslie Leslie. She's like, no, no,
17:11
Speaker 3: you got to hear me out, Like I'll call up
17:12
Speaker 3: with the name of it in a minute. It's pretty good.
17:14
Speaker 3: You should check it out. And I'm like, well, I
17:17
Speaker 3: don't know how to tell you this, but that's me.
17:19
Speaker 3: She's like, amazing, Yeah, that's you. I was like, yeah, okay,
17:22
Speaker 3: this is a moment I'll remember for a long time.
17:24
Speaker 3: So and we ended up getting a relief for these guys,
17:27
Speaker 3: which was great. But yeah, So that's that's the Wrongful
17:30
Speaker 3: Conviction podcast in a nutshell. And of course I love
17:32
Speaker 3: the fact that with as many people listening to it
17:36
Speaker 3: as do, it is a statistical, extreme probability that someone
17:42
Speaker 3: is sitting in a jury room right now in America, yeah,
17:46
Speaker 3: maybe even elsewhere in the world and being fed a
17:48
Speaker 3: bunch of bullshit by prosecutors, quote unquote experts, police people
17:56
Speaker 3: who know better. Yeah, and they're not going to fall
17:58
Speaker 3: for it. Yeah, because I.
18:00
Speaker 1: Have long said that that, you know, the subversive mission
18:03
Speaker 1: of Undisclosed is to tate every jury in America for
18:08
Speaker 1: the better. So I totally get that. I mean, look,
18:10
Speaker 1: your work has you know, not just not just made
18:14
Speaker 1: differences in the halls of power, like you know, with
18:16
Speaker 1: criminal justice reform with legislation, but you've gotten clemency's pardons, exonerations,
18:21
Speaker 1: and also so much recognition. I mean, like, you know,
18:24
Speaker 1: just recognition in the industry itself, which is not easy
18:27
Speaker 1: to get. I mean, after starting Wrongful Conviction, then you
18:30
Speaker 1: founded Lava for Good, and Lava for Good produces many
18:33
Speaker 1: more shows outside of Wrongful Conviction, including ones that people
18:37
Speaker 1: I know our listeners are familiar with, like Ear Witness
18:40
Speaker 1: and Bone Valley. I mean, like this just incredibly popular
18:44
Speaker 1: shows as well, not just impactful.
18:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm so glad you mentioned that Bone Valley.
18:50
Speaker 3: We're getting ready to release season five, which is called
18:53
Speaker 3: Bone Valley Devil's Quarry, and it is already getting a
18:58
Speaker 3: significant amount of fanfars but admitted to right back a
19:00
Speaker 3: film festival. It's in partnership with Rolling Stone Magazine, which
19:05
Speaker 3: is very exciting because Rolling Stone has been a big
19:07
Speaker 3: part of my story for so many years. I think
19:08
Speaker 3: they've done some of the most important reporting on these
19:12
Speaker 3: type of issues for generations now and so, and I
19:16
Speaker 3: feel like they're still relevant, which is incredible. So, like
19:19
Speaker 3: I said, they did a story about Rob Will years ago.
19:21
Speaker 3: I helped to get their attention on that case, but
19:24
Speaker 3: it was really well done. Maybe did a story about
19:27
Speaker 3: me once upon Time, which is really well done. Too,
19:30
Speaker 3: but I was very, very humbled by that exposure. It
19:34
Speaker 3: was so wonderful. So Devil's Quarry is based on the
19:38
Speaker 3: article that was written by Paul Solataroff many years ago
19:44
Speaker 3: about a case in Carmel, New York where this little
19:50
Speaker 3: girl named Josette Wright was brutally assaulted and strangled and
19:55
Speaker 3: murdered ultimately and left in the woods. And I think
19:58
Speaker 3: she was a who's tannerb that it's horrible, horrible crime.
20:03
Speaker 3: And two guys ended up promptly convicted in that case,
20:06
Speaker 3: Anthony DiPippo and Andrew Kreevac. Andrew serve twenty four years,
20:10
Speaker 3: Anthony served twenty they'd both been exonerated. I think that
20:14
Speaker 3: everybody knew from the get go that they were innocent,
20:17
Speaker 3: but it didn't matter. It was a high profile case.
20:19
Speaker 3: They needed arrests, and somehow or other, the authorities ignored
20:26
Speaker 3: it's probably too kind of a word, you know, the
20:28
Speaker 3: person who would have been the obvious suspect. And so
20:33
Speaker 3: this is a deep dive into that case that is
20:37
Speaker 3: done by Paul, the original writer, who is so brilliant,
20:42
Speaker 3: and I think it's going to really shake people up
20:46
Speaker 3: because it's a different side of things right, because I
20:50
Speaker 3: talk and I know Robbie, you and I have talked
20:52
Speaker 3: about this before. You know, when when the system conspires
20:56
Speaker 3: to put innocent people in prisons Andrew and Anthony in
21:01
Speaker 3: this case, but in any of the cases, odd non whoever,
21:05
Speaker 3: but almost by definition, they're allowing the guilty person or
21:08
Speaker 3: people to remain free. And so you know, in cases,
21:12
Speaker 3: the more extreme and more horrible and more violent the
21:15
Speaker 3: case is, the more dangerous that is to everyone else.
21:19
Speaker 3: And we've been covering cases like this for so many years.
21:22
Speaker 3: Michael Morton. It goes back to him right in Texas
21:24
Speaker 3: where the cops ignored the obvious suspect who then went
21:27
Speaker 3: on and beat another woman to death in her home, Samemo,
21:31
Speaker 3: you know the two towns away, you know, in the
21:35
Speaker 3: ensuing weeks, and how would it feel to be her
21:37
Speaker 3: family when you find out that they could have, should
21:41
Speaker 3: have and maybe even did know who the actual guy was,
21:48
Speaker 3: but ignored him because the grieving husband who found his
21:51
Speaker 3: wife beaten the death happened to be the easier target,
21:54
Speaker 3: you know.
21:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well when is the Devil's corey air?
21:58
Speaker 3: Oh Devil's quarry is jeez? I just posted it on
22:02
Speaker 3: my Instagram, which, by the way, is at it's Jason Flamm.
22:05
Speaker 3: I'm so bad. So there was another Jason Flam who
22:07
Speaker 3: got to Instagram before I did. I've gotten to know him,
22:11
Speaker 3: by the way. He's a school teacher and tell her.
22:13
Speaker 3: I think June tenth is the Devil's Quarry and I'm
22:17
Speaker 3: so excited for everybody to hear it. I think it's
22:20
Speaker 3: really beautifully done and it's also it's powerful, it's traveling,
22:25
Speaker 3: and it should get everybody up in arms because it's
22:29
Speaker 3: it's really a just a super poignant example of how
22:33
Speaker 3: our system goes wrong, is wrong, does wrong, and we
22:39
Speaker 3: all suffer.
22:40
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to listen to that and that'll
22:43
Speaker 1: be a great summer listen along with undisclosed new new
22:47
Speaker 1: season which is also around the corner.
23:04
Speaker 2: You mentioned the new season of Bone Valley coming, and
23:08
Speaker 2: of course Bone Valley hoisted initially by Gilbert King, all
23:11
Speaker 2: started with the Leo Scofield case and then, as listeners know,
23:15
Speaker 2: Leo had a cellmate, Kevin Herrick, who also has a
23:19
Speaker 2: strong innocence claim and Jason Sheer point about ignoring the
23:22
Speaker 2: actual perpetrator an actual license plate in the file that
23:26
Speaker 2: linked to a sex Offendron done some pro bonal work
23:29
Speaker 2: helping out in that case. And so I wonder, Jason,
23:31
Speaker 2: going back all the way to the start of season
23:34
Speaker 2: one in this Bone Valley podcast, how did this case
23:39
Speaker 2: of Leos Scofield come tory attention and how did this
23:41
Speaker 2: whole Bone Valley franchise start.
23:44
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you raised that for a number of reasons, Colin.
23:47
Speaker 3: One is because isn't it profound when you think about
23:50
Speaker 3: the fact that two innocent guys were cellmates, different climes,
23:55
Speaker 3: both of them served you know, Leo served thirty six years.
23:58
Speaker 3: I think Kevin's been in for that now, Like, that's
24:02
Speaker 3: not a coincidence, It's a fucking epidemic, right, and there
24:06
Speaker 3: are innocent people all over this country sitting in prison
24:10
Speaker 3: cells right now while we're having this conversation. I think
24:14
Speaker 3: the numbers around two hundred thousand. Some people think it's
24:17
Speaker 3: as few as one hundred thousand. That's still a big
24:20
Speaker 3: freaking number, right when you consider that. So that's one reason.
24:24
Speaker 3: The other is Bone Valley season one. Well, first of all,
24:27
Speaker 3: how it started was Gilbert King, who is you know,
24:31
Speaker 3: somebody I admire I have long admired. He won the
24:34
Speaker 3: Pool Serprize for his book Devil and the Grove that
24:36
Speaker 3: led to the posthumous exoneration of four black teenage boys
24:39
Speaker 3: who were executed by the State of Florida in the
24:42
Speaker 3: most grotesque proceedings imaginable. So Gilbert approached me when he
24:48
Speaker 3: had found this case of Leo Schofield and asked me
24:51
Speaker 3: if i'd be willing to do a podcast, and I
24:53
Speaker 3: was like, with you, boss, hell yeah. I didn't even
24:55
Speaker 3: have to ask too many details. And so that's how
24:58
Speaker 3: it started. And what I love about Bone Valley is
25:01
Speaker 3: one of those podcasts because I'm like a podcast snob,
25:04
Speaker 3: right if it, Like we say in the music industry,
25:06
Speaker 3: you get to the chorus and don't bore us. So
25:10
Speaker 3: in Bone Valley the first sixty seconds and you're like,
25:12
Speaker 3: oh boy, this is gonna be nutty.
25:16
Speaker 4: You've been around the system for a long time. Could
25:19
Speaker 4: you ever imagine the day where you'd sit at a
25:21
Speaker 4: table with a microphone and vouch for a man who
25:26
Speaker 4: says he's not guilty.
25:28
Speaker 2: No.
25:30
Speaker 5: In fact, I've stated many times I'm probably way over
25:34
Speaker 5: my skis right now.
25:36
Speaker 3: Technically I'm not supposed to be doing this.
25:40
Speaker 4: But it's like If I don't do it, who the
25:43
Speaker 4: fuck's gonna do it.
25:45
Speaker 5: This is Judge Scott Cupp. He isn't supposed to make
25:48
Speaker 5: any public comments on pending cases at all. Florida's Code
25:52
Speaker 5: of Judicial Conduct prohibits it. And yet that's exactly what
25:56
Speaker 5: he's doing to me, a writer. This It could cost
26:00
Speaker 5: him not only a seat on the twentieth Circuit Court,
26:03
Speaker 5: he could even be disbarred.
26:06
Speaker 6: I can't.
26:06
Speaker 3: I just can't let it go.
26:11
Speaker 5: The first time I met Judge Scott Cupp was in
26:13
Speaker 5: twenty eighteen, when I was invited to speak at a
26:15
Speaker 5: conference about my book, Devil in the Grove. It's a
26:19
Speaker 5: story of four young black men in central Florida who
26:22
Speaker 5: were wrongly accused of raping a white woman in nineteen
26:24
Speaker 5: forty nine. A young Thurgood Marshall represented them at trial,
26:29
Speaker 5: decades before he became the first black justice on the
26:32
Speaker 5: US Supreme Court. I spent five years investigating this story,
26:37
Speaker 5: and when Devil in the Grove won the Pulitzer Prize
26:39
Speaker 5: in twenty thirteen, it brought renewed attention, outrage, and even
26:43
Speaker 5: political action to the case. In late twenty twenty one,
26:48
Speaker 5: I was in the courtroom when the state of Florida
26:50
Speaker 5: formally dismissed all charges against the young men known as
26:53
Speaker 5: the Groveland Four, their families patiently waited for full exonerations,
26:59
Speaker 5: and after seventy two years, they finally had justice.
27:04
Speaker 7: If you know something that's right, stand up for it
27:08
Speaker 7: the persistent and stand back footed on God's promises. Let
27:15
Speaker 7: him work his plate. I don't care if it takes
27:17
Speaker 7: seventy two years, it might take eighties.
27:22
Speaker 2: He did it for me, and he a do.
27:24
Speaker 7: It for you.
27:27
Speaker 3: It's like a freaking onion and you keep peeling it
27:30
Speaker 3: and it keeps getting worse and more rotten and more rotten.
27:33
Speaker 3: You're like, oh no, they're no further down this can go.
27:37
Speaker 3: And then it goes. It goes down.
27:39
Speaker 1: It's worse.
27:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, it gets worse, and the good news is that
27:43
Speaker 3: it's had the impact that we hope for almost there's
27:47
Speaker 3: still work to be done, even though on our show
27:51
Speaker 3: the actual killer confesses in details that only he could
27:56
Speaker 3: know and there's physical evidence to back it up up,
28:00
Speaker 3: like his physical evidence was all over the scene where
28:04
Speaker 3: poor Michelle was was butchered, and so yeah, that's uh,
28:09
Speaker 3: that's Bone Valley. And if you haven't heard it yet,
28:12
Speaker 3: it's time. Listen to that, listen to it strong recommend. Yeah.
28:16
Speaker 1: No, we we've talked about Bone Valley many many times
28:18
Speaker 1: with the show Believe. Yeah, yeah, I know it's yeah.
28:21
Speaker 3: I think the fifth season is really gonna and everybody
28:24
Speaker 3: take your phone now, unless you're on your phone or
28:27
Speaker 3: if you're driving. But other than that, you can I
28:29
Speaker 3: think you can preview Bone Valley season five Devil's Quarry
28:33
Speaker 3: now and you can probably pre order it or whatever
28:36
Speaker 3: hell you got to do with a dance subscribe, subscribe,
28:40
Speaker 3: I can't even speak today.
28:41
Speaker 1: Like and subscribe. Yeah. Another one of your shows that
28:43
Speaker 1: I think would be really relevant to our audience is
28:45
Speaker 1: the Junk Science Show, which all stupid. I mean, like
28:48
Speaker 1: we are obsessed with junk science around here, and I
28:52
Speaker 1: mean like it's like four hundred episodes deep, and it
28:54
Speaker 1: attacks like all kinds of junk science. It's been used
28:57
Speaker 1: over you know, like the last hundred years to convict
29:00
Speaker 1: people and so much of that. I mean, I don't
29:02
Speaker 1: know how involved you are like in this different shows.
29:05
Speaker 1: Are you involved, like let's say with this particular show,
29:08
Speaker 1: like are you like taking a look at like who's
29:10
Speaker 1: going to be coming on what are the issues are
29:12
Speaker 1: we presented are on top of all of that. That's
29:15
Speaker 1: a lot to do.
29:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a team, of course, and we all
29:19
Speaker 3: pitch in however in whatever ways are needed. Junk Science
29:23
Speaker 3: is a show I'm really proud of and I'm glad
29:25
Speaker 3: you raised it because it's so important and what we
29:28
Speaker 3: did on junk Science is and it was four hundred
29:32
Speaker 3: episodes in don't worry, there's not four hundred episodes. You
29:34
Speaker 3: have to listen to that.
29:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's true right now.
29:36
Speaker 3: But there are a fair number of episodes and each
29:40
Speaker 3: one very I think masterfully delves into a different junk science.
29:48
Speaker 3: So we covered, you know, arson bitemark evidence, blood spatter,
29:56
Speaker 3: We covered bootprint analysis, tool mark analo sis. We covered
30:01
Speaker 3: shaking baby syndrome, one of the ones I am most
30:05
Speaker 3: you know, passionate about.
30:07
Speaker 1: And Colin as well. Yeah, Colin does a lot of
30:09
Speaker 1: work on shaking baby syndrome.
30:10
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, fuck of shaking baby syndrome diagnosis, because that
30:13
Speaker 3: is just it's so insidious, because what it does to families,
30:17
Speaker 3: grieving families, Yeah, and just makes everything worse, like so
30:21
Speaker 3: many other aspects of our criminal legal system. But what
30:23
Speaker 3: I would say to the listeners of viewers now, is
30:26
Speaker 3: just that there's never been a documented case of a
30:30
Speaker 3: baby being shaken to death or to you know, extreme duress.
30:34
Speaker 3: There's never been a video, there's never been somebody witness it.
30:38
Speaker 3: And that's because it's never happened. I might say that,
30:40
Speaker 3: I mean, has anyone ever shaken a baby? Sure, but
30:44
Speaker 3: you know it's not a natural thing. As a lay person,
30:47
Speaker 3: I'm not a scientist. I don't have to be. I'm
30:49
Speaker 3: a logical person, and I think everyone can probably relate
30:54
Speaker 3: to this, I hope. So I think about it in
30:55
Speaker 3: the terms of when we as humans get really really
30:59
Speaker 3: at a person or a thing, our natural instinct is
31:03
Speaker 3: to hit it, kick it, or throw it, probably in
31:07
Speaker 3: that order. Right. What we don't normally do is shake
31:11
Speaker 3: things out of anger. Not impossible has been done, does happen,
31:16
Speaker 3: but in general that's what we do now. Furthermore, when
31:21
Speaker 3: you think about shaking a baby, who is call it
31:25
Speaker 3: you know, fifteen pounds or something, ten pounds, sometimes bigger,
31:30
Speaker 3: forty pounds. I mean, there's a four year old. We
31:32
Speaker 3: have a case in California. How much the four year
31:35
Speaker 3: old it was not a little bit, but so how
31:39
Speaker 3: strong would you have to be to hold a baby
31:42
Speaker 3: at arm's length who's presumably agitated and squiggling and moving around,
31:47
Speaker 3: and now you're gonna have to hold them. So do
31:49
Speaker 3: this like at home, Like put your arms out and
31:52
Speaker 3: try to imagine you have a weight that heavy, that's
31:56
Speaker 3: not it's you know, it's something again that's in motion,
31:59
Speaker 3: which makes you even more dynamic. Right, and now you've
32:02
Speaker 3: got to shake it so hard that you rattle its
32:05
Speaker 3: brain meanwhile, not damaging its ribs, right, which you think
32:11
Speaker 3: about that, how tight would you have to squeeze that individual,
32:15
Speaker 3: that that child toddler in order not to drop it
32:18
Speaker 3: when you're shaking it? Right, And kids that age their
32:21
Speaker 3: ribs are very you know, they're not hard to you know,
32:26
Speaker 3: like ours. So in these cases, case after case that
32:31
Speaker 3: we see, as you guys know, the neck isn't broken either. Sorry,
32:35
Speaker 3: it's gross to talk about it, but it is what
32:37
Speaker 3: it is. But so what I think I think neurology
32:41
Speaker 3: and science have advanced to the point, Well, first of all,
32:43
Speaker 3: now we've identified at least eighty two other causes, other
32:48
Speaker 3: things that could cause what they call the triad of
32:50
Speaker 3: symptoms bleeding in the brain and stuff like that the hemorrhaging,
32:55
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, but they somehow or other, The
32:58
Speaker 3: default in the criminal legal sit is always just a
33:01
Speaker 3: kid must have been shaken, when now we know the
33:03
Speaker 3: same symptoms could come from justice. What looks like an
33:05
Speaker 3: innocent fall or a roll out of a bed, even
33:07
Speaker 3: a low bed, right, just like how you know adults,
33:12
Speaker 3: you know, some people fall on the street, right and
33:15
Speaker 3: they just dust himself off and get up. They trip
33:17
Speaker 3: over something whatever it is, and other people fall, hit
33:20
Speaker 3: their head and die.
33:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is of course the Robert Roberson case
33:24
Speaker 2: in Texas. So the man on death row who is
33:27
Speaker 2: convicted on what everyone pretty much believes now, including representators
33:32
Speaker 2: on both sides of the aisle, was junk signs of
33:34
Speaker 2: a shaking baby syndrome diagnosis.
33:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I visited Robert on
33:39
Speaker 3: death row in Texas, and he is such a beautiful soul.
33:46
Speaker 3: He's still got this sort of almost childlike demeanor you
33:51
Speaker 3: know about him. He's still got a light in his
33:54
Speaker 3: eyes that is just, you know, sort of it's incredible
33:58
Speaker 3: considering what he's been through, not just the loss of
34:01
Speaker 3: a child, but then being evicted it sentenced to death,
34:03
Speaker 3: and I'm so glad you brought him up because his case.
34:06
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, it's a it's almost like the poster child,
34:10
Speaker 3: for lack of a better word, for this disastrous, you know,
34:14
Speaker 3: practice that we have in this country of just defaulting
34:17
Speaker 3: to the baby must have been shaken and that's why
34:21
Speaker 3: whatever happened to it happened. And you know what I mean, Look,
34:25
Speaker 3: we have a whole cottage industry called child abuse pediatricians. Like,
34:31
Speaker 3: wait minute, that's in your name, So your job is
34:37
Speaker 3: to diagnose child abuse and pretty much that's how it is. Yeah,
34:41
Speaker 3: so it's a scary time.
35:00
Speaker 1: I mean, what's super frustrating about this, and I've talked
35:02
Speaker 1: about this numerous times, is the fact that, like the
35:05
Speaker 1: general public seems to be caught up on the fact
35:08
Speaker 1: that a lot of this science that has junk science
35:10
Speaker 1: that has convicted people it's all bullshit. I mean, like,
35:14
Speaker 1: you know, Obama had the task force that also gave
35:17
Speaker 1: its recommendations, and so like you have official government agencies
35:21
Speaker 1: where like we can't, but people are still behind bars
35:24
Speaker 1: and serving life sentences and sometimes death sentence is based
35:27
Speaker 1: on something like hair microscopy evidence and nothing else or
35:32
Speaker 1: like you said, the footwear comparison. The frustration is that
35:35
Speaker 1: the needle is not only not moving on cases that
35:39
Speaker 1: a bit adjudicated, I don't think it's really moving that
35:42
Speaker 1: much on cases that are being adjudicated today. Like this
35:44
Speaker 1: stuff still has to be litigate it over and over
35:46
Speaker 1: in every single case that the state wants to use
35:49
Speaker 1: any of the science, and then you've got to convince
35:51
Speaker 1: a judge to like, you know, exclude it.
35:54
Speaker 3: Robbie, I'm so glad you referenced that because the hair analysis,
35:58
Speaker 3: you know, there was a landmark by was National cinem
36:01
Speaker 3: of Science, the Innacist Project, the Justice Department maybe FBI
36:06
Speaker 3: came four agencies in mind, and they studied three hundred
36:10
Speaker 3: and ninety six cases during I think it was that
36:13
Speaker 3: I think that's the right number, actually a visital memory,
36:15
Speaker 3: but in which hair analysis was the main factor in
36:21
Speaker 3: the conviction of the person who was accused of the crime.
36:24
Speaker 3: And they found that I think in ninety six percent
36:28
Speaker 3: of them, the FBI analyst had either been mistaken or lied,
36:35
Speaker 3: and these lies or mistakes had, you know, horrific consequences.
36:43
Speaker 3: You know, when you have an FBI expert get up
36:45
Speaker 3: on the stand and say, well, it's obviously Collins hair.
36:49
Speaker 3: It's like a million, billion, trillion to one odds that
36:52
Speaker 3: it could have been anybody else. And some of these
36:54
Speaker 3: cases it turned out to be cat hair, you know,
36:57
Speaker 3: or you know, a dog hair, or not hair at all,
37:02
Speaker 3: or somebody else's hair. And like they're just up there
37:05
Speaker 3: making up these statistics that aren't based in any you know,
37:09
Speaker 3: and there's a whole science behind it. You listen to
37:11
Speaker 3: the episode of Junk Science and you'll learn more.
37:14
Speaker 1: Episode it's.
37:18
Speaker 2: And I'll be very pertinent to our upcoming season.
37:19
Speaker 3: This one.
37:20
Speaker 2: It is a faulty hair analysis from nineteen seventy two
37:23
Speaker 2: to nineteen ninety ninety.
37:24
Speaker 3: And by the way, the one thing I found most
37:27
Speaker 3: I think surprising in Junk Science the episode I found
37:31
Speaker 3: most surprising. You guys want to guess because he even
37:33
Speaker 3: shocked me.
37:35
Speaker 2: Okay, printing so unscientific and a judgment called by a
37:42
Speaker 2: finger printing examiner.
37:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the fingerprint episode. What I thought was so
37:48
Speaker 3: stunning about that because up until I I have to admit,
37:53
Speaker 3: up until I heard our own episode, I kind of
37:56
Speaker 3: thought fingerprints were totally reliable. I thought that was one
37:58
Speaker 3: of the only ones that was right. But the incredible
38:02
Speaker 3: one of the incredible things in the Fingerprint episode is
38:05
Speaker 3: that they talk about the case of the guy who
38:08
Speaker 3: was accused of the Madrid train bombings. Right, So, in
38:11
Speaker 3: the nineties, it was a horrific series of attacks on
38:15
Speaker 3: I think eight different trains a particular day, like one
38:18
Speaker 3: hundred and ninety people killed. There were bombs left in
38:21
Speaker 3: these trains. Horrible, horrible thing. And so naturally is a
38:24
Speaker 3: worldwide man hunt, like the biggest man hunt you know,
38:28
Speaker 3: I mean you can imagine, right, And so they had
38:32
Speaker 3: a partial fingerprint I think left on something that was
38:35
Speaker 3: attributed to the one of the perpetrators in or maybe
38:39
Speaker 3: it was one perpetrator. I think one guy did all that,
38:41
Speaker 3: but who knows. And so the FBI got a hit
38:45
Speaker 3: and they announced that this guy he was a lawyer
38:48
Speaker 3: who lived in Oregon, but he had also recently converted
38:52
Speaker 3: to the Muslim religion. And so it was like, oh, perfect,
38:57
Speaker 3: he's already must be him because and so there was
39:02
Speaker 3: one problem. Colin knows the problem. The problem was he
39:06
Speaker 3: didn't have a passport and he had never been to
39:08
Speaker 3: Spain or left the country. I don't think I think
39:10
Speaker 3: he ever left the United States, or at least not
39:12
Speaker 3: in the last many, many many years. But the FBI
39:15
Speaker 3: was like, nope, we had our three top guys analyze this.
39:19
Speaker 3: It's definitely him. And finally the Spanish authorities were like,
39:23
Speaker 3: how about this, you guys fuck off while we go
39:27
Speaker 3: and try to find who actually did this, because obviously
39:29
Speaker 3: he ain't that guy. And so where my mind goes
39:34
Speaker 3: with this is imagine if that had been an American case. Yeah,
39:38
Speaker 3: he would have one hundred thousand percent been convicted and
39:42
Speaker 3: sentenced to death. Yeah, because it would have been a
39:44
Speaker 3: federal case. I imagine he would have been sentence to death.
39:47
Speaker 3: So you know, he was I guess you could say
39:49
Speaker 3: he was lucky if you could be lucky in such
39:51
Speaker 3: a circumstance. By the way, I'm on my way to
40:09
Speaker 3: the studio to go record with Michelle Murphy today. You know,
40:12
Speaker 3: we're launching Wrongful Conviction on YouTube in the next few weeks.
40:17
Speaker 3: It's been on YouTube, but it's been more of a
40:18
Speaker 3: static thing. Now it's going to be a fully you know,
40:22
Speaker 3: dynamic set and really visually I think compelling. And I'm
40:27
Speaker 3: so happy that Michelle is coming to be featured on
40:31
Speaker 3: the show because Michelle was still the only female DNA
40:35
Speaker 3: x hoonnery from the state of Oklahoma. She was wrongfully
40:39
Speaker 3: convicted of the murder of her fifteen week old son, Yeah, Travis.
40:43
Speaker 3: And it's a case that I think haunts me and
40:46
Speaker 3: so many And she did twenty years of a life
40:49
Speaker 3: without parole sentence starting when she was seventeen years old,
40:53
Speaker 3: and just went through a type of hell that I
40:56
Speaker 3: hope nobody ever experiences again. And she's just such a
41:00
Speaker 3: beautiful person, such a kind soul. How long was she
41:05
Speaker 3: incarcerated exactly twenty years. Ironically she walked out twenty years
41:09
Speaker 3: to the day. Just coincidental that she walked out twenty
41:12
Speaker 3: years to the day that she went in. But she
41:14
Speaker 3: had a natural life sentence, no possibly parrolee. That was
41:17
Speaker 3: an instance fute your case, and they were able to
41:20
Speaker 3: free her with DNA. And you know, I think her
41:24
Speaker 3: case is super compelling as well, because from day one,
41:28
Speaker 3: even the judge like, get this. I don't know if
41:32
Speaker 3: you guys know this aspect of it. But in a
41:35
Speaker 3: hearing the judge calls the attorneys into his chambers. There
41:41
Speaker 3: was one witness who claimed to have been It was
41:43
Speaker 3: a kid from the neighborhood. It was fourteen or fifteen
41:48
Speaker 3: who was known for committing horrific acts of violence against
41:51
Speaker 3: animals and others. Right, And he claimed that he was
41:57
Speaker 3: looking in her window at three in the morning or
41:59
Speaker 3: something that saw her do this kid was decapitated for prostakes,
42:03
Speaker 3: right and so, and she woke up with a big
42:06
Speaker 3: lump on her head and another swelling in her leg.
42:08
Speaker 3: And he had obviously attacked her, knocked her out, and
42:11
Speaker 3: then taken the kid and killed him in the kitchen.
42:14
Speaker 3: And the judge in the original hearing, one of the hearings,
42:17
Speaker 3: as I understand it, called the attorneys and the prosecutors
42:20
Speaker 3: everybody into his chambers and said, why doesn't that kid
42:23
Speaker 3: have an attorney? And one of the prosecutors said, well,
42:26
Speaker 3: because he's not a suspect, your honor, he's a witness.
42:29
Speaker 3: And the judge said, are you the only person here
42:32
Speaker 3: that doesn't know that he's the actual killer?
42:34
Speaker 2: Oh?
42:35
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? Oh my god.
42:38
Speaker 3: But for reasons I'll never understand, the judge allowed the
42:40
Speaker 3: proceedings to proceed, and then that kid, you ready for this?
42:45
Speaker 3: He was never called to testify. Where had he been
42:49
Speaker 3: called to testify? On cross they would have found out
42:52
Speaker 3: that not only were there people who were going to
42:54
Speaker 3: say that he had decapitated animals, that also he had
42:57
Speaker 3: gone to school the next day and said I told
42:59
Speaker 3: you that bitch was in a pay And there was
43:01
Speaker 3: a school counselor who was prepared apparently to testify and
43:04
Speaker 3: say that he responded to rejection with violence and Michelle
43:07
Speaker 3: had rejected him his advances. So the reason he couldn't
43:11
Speaker 3: testify was because he self asphyxiated before the trial.
43:15
Speaker 1: Oh oh, so, okay, okay. I was wondering because if
43:20
Speaker 1: he had still been around, I'm sure he would have
43:22
Speaker 1: had a very lengthy rap sheet by now and probably
43:24
Speaker 1: gotten picked up for something like committing a lot more violence.
43:27
Speaker 1: And she was only she was only seventeenth at the
43:29
Speaker 1: time as well, she was a child as well. There
43:32
Speaker 1: was just so many layers in this story where you know,
43:34
Speaker 1: she was questioned without parental consent or presence and all
43:40
Speaker 1: these things legal. Yeah, yeah, igal so. But Michelle, I
43:44
Speaker 1: think has been on your show before, right, so you're
43:45
Speaker 1: having her on again or she is she going to
43:47
Speaker 1: be a co host or something now, No, she was.
43:50
Speaker 3: On the audio version of the podcast. She was episode
43:53
Speaker 3: like forty three or something many years ago, okay, you know,
43:56
Speaker 3: and we've been super close ever since. She calls me uncle,
43:59
Speaker 3: I call her niece. She stays with my wife and I.
44:04
Speaker 3: We love having her around. She's just a light and
44:07
Speaker 3: so we're just really happy to have her in our lives.
44:09
Speaker 3: But now we're doing an updated version with the video,
44:13
Speaker 3: with the full video resentation, and obviously many things have
44:16
Speaker 3: changed since I interviewed her nine years ago or whatever
44:18
Speaker 3: it was, and I think her story is more relevant
44:21
Speaker 3: now than ever.
44:22
Speaker 2: And Jason, in terms of both the audio version of
44:25
Speaker 2: your podcast and the new YouTube version, you've probably interviewed
44:30
Speaker 2: more exoneries than almost anyone, if not anyone, in the world.
44:34
Speaker 2: And I wonder what have you found surprising on this
44:38
Speaker 2: end of it versus coming in about the disposition, the demeanor,
44:43
Speaker 2: the feeling of these exonerateiaes after all these years of
44:47
Speaker 2: wrongful conviction.
44:48
Speaker 3: I wonder if there's a Guinness Book of Records category.
44:53
Speaker 3: I'm not going to submit myself, but if you want
44:54
Speaker 3: to submit me, you can. That's not why I did it.
44:57
Speaker 3: I think what's surprise to me, and I touched on
45:01
Speaker 3: this before, is that almost to a person these individuals
45:09
Speaker 3: are people who have been through hell, through no fault
45:11
Speaker 3: of their own, and come out carrying buckets of water
45:14
Speaker 3: for the people they left behind. Just like Leo wants
45:17
Speaker 3: to go and advocate for Kevin Herrick, right, that's his
45:20
Speaker 3: life's purpose. Lorenzo Johnson has been since he came home,
45:25
Speaker 3: and he's did twenty two years. Romphy convicted twice in Pennsylvania,
45:28
Speaker 3: battled every type of horrible disease since he came home,
45:32
Speaker 3: lost a child. I mean, he's been through hell and
45:34
Speaker 3: all he wants to do is help other guys that
45:37
Speaker 3: are still in for crimes that he knows they didn't commit.
45:39
Speaker 3: Tysian Crocker is one that we're working on together, one
45:43
Speaker 3: of them that work on together now. So it really
45:46
Speaker 3: always puts gratitude in my attitude just being around these
45:53
Speaker 3: incredible humans who have suffered in ways that I think
45:58
Speaker 3: none of us can possibly have understand, even someone like
46:01
Speaker 3: me who's around them and this all the time, there's
46:05
Speaker 3: no way to I mean, and I wonder about that sometimes,
46:09
Speaker 3: and I've developed the theory. Actually, I think that one
46:11
Speaker 3: of the reasons why the overwhelming majority of these people
46:17
Speaker 3: are so not just heroic but so humble and so
46:20
Speaker 3: gracious and so Nicky. Arris is a great example, right,
46:23
Speaker 3: there's a show about nick on Broadway now called The
46:25
Speaker 3: Fear of Thirteen with Adrian Brody. He's the only person
46:29
Speaker 3: other than Rihanna who's alive and has a show about
46:32
Speaker 3: them on Broadway right now, besides the one he's just
46:36
Speaker 3: he's that guy, right, he's just so. He practices neuroplasticity healing. Yes,
46:42
Speaker 3: so after do it twenty two years on death row.
46:44
Speaker 3: And I think one of the reasons why since a
46:46
Speaker 3: huge percentage of them come home in a state of
46:50
Speaker 3: grace that is so incredibly you know, just humbling and
46:55
Speaker 3: mystifying almost, is because there's a preselection, right, I think
46:59
Speaker 3: there's a un Fortunately, there's a significant number of people
47:02
Speaker 3: who are innocent in prison who give up.
47:05
Speaker 2: No.
47:05
Speaker 3: Tysian Crocker's case is one of those where his co
47:07
Speaker 3: defendant has given up. Yeah, he's just as innocent as Taisheen,
47:11
Speaker 3: but he gave up. He's like, I'm tired of fighting.
47:14
Speaker 3: You know, a tee for a phase case, which is,
47:16
Speaker 3: if you're gonna listen to one episode of wrongful conviction,
47:18
Speaker 3: listen to a tee for a phase case wild Yeah,
47:21
Speaker 3: t for Fey, wrongful, convicted of murder. His entire family
47:24
Speaker 3: was a Cornell freshman, had no mental problems, no reason
47:28
Speaker 3: to suspect him whatsoever, no physical evidence, his whole family
47:31
Speaker 3: beaten to death with a baseball bat, and they convict
47:33
Speaker 3: him and his friend. And his friend unfortunately, was so
47:37
Speaker 3: brutalized in prison that he's effectively non compassmentus, just as
47:42
Speaker 3: innocent as the teeth.
47:43
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I didn't know that that happened to him.
47:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll never know his story or if he comes
47:48
Speaker 3: home at all, I will, it will certainly, even though
47:50
Speaker 3: he's not able to advocate for himself. We're hoping that
47:52
Speaker 3: when we get a teeth out, or when we get Taishima,
47:54
Speaker 3: we'll be able to go back and get you know,
47:57
Speaker 3: their co defendants out as well. So yeah, I think
48:00
Speaker 3: the names we never hear about are the ones who
48:02
Speaker 3: in prison suffer so badly, whether they mentally just break down,
48:08
Speaker 3: which is understandable, or they succumb to drugs or violence
48:12
Speaker 3: or whatever it is. So the people that come out
48:14
Speaker 3: are people who while they were in found this other gear,
48:18
Speaker 3: this thing that's just so you know, this victor Frankel,
48:23
Speaker 3: whatever you want to call it. This, You know, Eliot
48:25
Speaker 3: are totally like something where they just are able to
48:30
Speaker 3: transcend these horrific circumstances that they find themselves in through
48:35
Speaker 3: no faulted their own.
48:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree, because I've seen that in all of
48:38
Speaker 1: our defendants is like this incredible grace And I mean
48:42
Speaker 1: most of them have been in there for decades, so
48:44
Speaker 1: they have learned to create lives there. And I remember
48:47
Speaker 1: when Cyria blew up a lot of folks and as
48:49
Speaker 1: they were trying to evaluate did the non do it
48:51
Speaker 1: or not do it? I remember seeing online people saying
48:54
Speaker 1: if I was wrongfully convicted, I would be so angry.
48:56
Speaker 1: He's not even angry. That means he actually did it.
48:59
Speaker 1: And I'm like, none of them it's like that. Yeah, yeah, Look, Jason,
49:02
Speaker 1: your work is extraordinary and I and I think what
49:05
Speaker 1: makes it so is that you are so authentically connected
49:09
Speaker 1: to each one of these stories, Like you know the people,
49:12
Speaker 1: you know their lives, they are in your life, you
49:14
Speaker 1: go and visit them. I don't even know how I
49:16
Speaker 1: have the bandwidth emotionally to carry all of this, and
49:19
Speaker 1: I think that's what comes through in your work over
49:22
Speaker 1: and over again before we wrap up, I wanted to
49:25
Speaker 1: ask you, I know, Bone Valley, new seasons coming out, anything,
49:28
Speaker 1: any other projects you want our listeners to keep an
49:30
Speaker 1: eye out for on the horizon.
49:32
Speaker 3: Rather than look at the horizon, I would just look
49:35
Speaker 3: in our feet. We have a show called The Race
49:37
Speaker 3: that I really love and it's different, right, It's actually
49:40
Speaker 3: fun because it's the first murder trial in American history.
49:43
Speaker 2: It's great, it's so great.
49:45
Speaker 3: Yeah. And the defense team was Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr,
49:49
Speaker 3: and they lied and cheated and did all of terrible
49:52
Speaker 3: things to get their guilty client, you know, fred and
49:56
Speaker 3: acquitted and so it's a it's a really fun thing
50:00
Speaker 3: listen to. It stars Allison Williams as the best friend
50:02
Speaker 3: of the murder victim. Tony Goldwin is Hamilton, Barry Scheck
50:06
Speaker 3: is Aaron Burr, and I play Judge John Lansing. So
50:09
Speaker 3: I get to say overruled a lot and bang my
50:12
Speaker 3: fist on the thing.
50:14
Speaker 1: And I believe it is produced by your daughter, right,
50:16
Speaker 1: Is that really it was?
50:17
Speaker 3: It was. That's awesome. So check out e Race. Great.
50:20
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jason, thank you for joining us.
50:22
Speaker 1: I know you've got to get to another meeting. We
50:24
Speaker 1: will tag folks let them know where you are on
50:26
Speaker 1: social media. We will share your YouTube channel and thank
50:29
Speaker 1: you again. It's wonderful having you on. You're a great
50:31
Speaker 1: friend of the show and thanks for all your work.
50:33
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks Robby, Thanks Collin Bbye you guys.
50:40
Speaker 6: Hey Undisclosed listeners, It's Methel, executive producer of Undisclosed Toward Justice.
50:46
Speaker 6: Before I roll through their credits, I've got a few
50:48
Speaker 6: quick notes. By now, most of you probably know about
50:51
Speaker 6: our Facebook community group. If you haven't joined yet, please
50:54
Speaker 6: go to Facebook dot com slash groups slash toward Justice
50:59
Speaker 6: and answer threesome questions and you're in. But seriously answer
51:02
Speaker 6: the questions because a bunch of you are still pending
51:05
Speaker 6: since you've only answered one or two. They're easy questions,
51:08
Speaker 6: I promise. In addition to engaging with us through the
51:11
Speaker 6: Facebook group, you can also leave us a voice note
51:13
Speaker 6: at speakpipe dot com slash Undisclosed. We always check the messages,
51:17
Speaker 6: and so far I think we've answered all of them.
51:20
Speaker 6: We also have a Patreon page with three different tiers
51:22
Speaker 6: of perks, the closet one just being a dollar, which
51:24
Speaker 6: allows us to continue to do this work. Other tiers
51:27
Speaker 6: include bonus episodes, early access to merch, and even joining
51:31
Speaker 6: Robbia in a live true crime zoom discussion. Just go
51:35
Speaker 6: to patreon dot com slash Undisclosed Pod now onto the
51:39
Speaker 6: real credits. A huge shout out to Hannah McCarthy for
51:42
Speaker 6: audio production. Thank you to Patrick Cortes and Bramero Marquez
51:47
Speaker 6: for our theme music. For anyone new here, you can
51:50
Speaker 6: engage with us online by going to Instagram or Facebook
51:53
Speaker 6: at Undisclosed Podcast. We're also on TikTok, YouTube and X
51:58
Speaker 6: at Undisclosed Pod. Whether you're a new or returning listener,
52:02
Speaker 6: you can always check out our previous cases and bonus
52:05
Speaker 6: episodes by going to our website at Undisclosed pod dot com.
52:09
Speaker 6: If you would like to follow Colin and Robbia on
52:11
Speaker 6: social media, you can find Robbia at Robbia squared two
52:15
Speaker 6: on Instagram and Colin at evidenceprof on Instagram, X and
52:20
Speaker 6: Blue Sky. Thank you all for your continued support and
52:24
Speaker 6: for supporting all of our sponsors. Until next time,