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363. Dear Divorce Diary... I Said Yes Again - Even Though I Promised Myself I'd Say No · Dear Divorce Diary: A Fresh Approach To Healing Grief & Building A Life Of Confidence After Divorce

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Ladies, I'm not gonna lie.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: This week kind of sucks because we're not all in the room together.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I don't like it.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_04: I don't like it either.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: Not that I want to live in Myrtle Beach for the rest of my life, but if you could, if we could go back and have all of us with the women and we could live in a house across the street from my house.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: So I could still kiss my kid on the head, but like go back to the house with all the women, like I I would live there.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: It was amazing.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: If you could bring the woods, like if I could just go across the waterway and there would be just like these beautiful woods and mountains, like sign me up.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_05: We need to have the woods mountains on the beach.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Woods mountains.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, super specifically beautiful, basically.
• 0:39
  unknown: Yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: I it was really hard to say goodbye to everybody.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, it sucked so bad.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk about ugly cry.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ugly cried.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_04: We will unpack the whole retreat experience on Thursday's episode because it was magical.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_04: Magical.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: So what are we talking about today?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_04: Today we are talking about when I exchange my yes and my no, meaning I say yes to someone when I really wanted to say no, and I can't figure out how to stop doing that.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_04: That's what we're talking about today.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: Lovely.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: Hi, love.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to Dear Divorce Diary, the podcast helping divorcees go beyond talk therapy to process your grief, find the healing you crave, and build back your confidence.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_04: I'm your host, Don Wiggins, a therapist, coach, integrative healer, and divorce A.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_04: Join me for a fresh approach to healing grief and building your confidence after divorce.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so I wanna make sure we dig into some really divorce-specific ones.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, because I think, you know, that's that's what's relevant.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_04: But before we go there, right, when is the last time you said yes and knew immediately you should not have?
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: God, this is gonna be so raw.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you guys ready?
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, when I told my dad that I promised that I would be there with him when he passed away, and then I knew that I couldn't.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And not because I couldn't emotionally, but because I couldn't locationally, right?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, right.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: I felt terrible about that.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that was the last time that I said yes when really like, but I feel like he also kind of knew it.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: The last time that we said goodbye, it seemed very final for me.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't feel any type of way about not being there when it actually, when the moment actually happened.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: But damn, yeah, it it took me a while to just be like, fuck, I probably shouldn't have said that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_04: That's not a little one.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's a huge one.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: What you got, Joyce?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_05: That's more like I have that firefighter has run my life.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_05: And so, like, when was the last time?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_05: Because I I'm trying so diligently to not have that firefighter be my be my leading um thing.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_05: So um probably you know what?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_05: Probably the 4th of July when I had a drink when I w knew in my head that I had I'd probably had enough.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_05: And I was so like in my body.
• 3:31
  unknown: Probably.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_04: So like you went against your own, like your own agreement with yourself.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, that's sexy.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like the good drink and bad drink.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I probably shouldn't be drinking right now because it's about a pop.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_05: And I don't Yeah, I think I was just that that final one when I was just like, mmm, I wasn't gonna drink this much today.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_05: Because I had been doing the whole 30, hadn't been drinking at all.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_05: And so then I had like in my head made an agreement.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_05: So I said yes when I should have said no.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_05: When I when I had told myself I was gonna say no.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: So it's probably that's really much the answer.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_05: It is.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_05: We have spiciness this morning, Don.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_04: What's your spicy?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, mine is equally spicy, but it's like yes and no adjacent.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: It's the aftermath of saying yes when I meant yes, or saying no when I meant no.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: That's what it is, right?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: It's the aftermath of saying no when I meant no and the fallout that is unfolding currently, right?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_04: So I, rather than exchanging my yes for a no, said straight up no to a family member this weekend.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: And it was bad, not cute, no bueno.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_04: And now I'm sitting with the fallout and the urge to emotionally caretake and to just try to make it all go away, and all the reasons right why we struggle with um not trading our answers, like all of the codependent things where I feel like I was a bad girl and feeling their shame and looking at how it's affecting the greater family system and you know, like that.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like, okay, I actually did stick to my guns, but I'm sitting in the intensity of what it feels like afterwards to have done so.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: The yuckiness.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna give it one star.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: I won't say zero because it's we must do this, but one star not enjoyable.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_05: That's a good answer too.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_05: Because man, oh man.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_05: Man, er man.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, because go ahead, okay.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_05: I was just gonna say because sometimes the cost of the fallout is more than the cost of the um but it's right.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: So like you have to you have to do it.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the shitty part of the boundary.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that's the whole point of the episode, right?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, are you brave enough to sit in the reaction of other people when you aren't the good girl?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: And suppress and just take it.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's a lot about resourcing, right?
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I was I've went into the weekend feeling like I had uninstalled some filters and wasn't really resourced to set boundaries.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um But you know, it it's still hard.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_04: Even even well resourced, right?
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_04: It feels hard.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: But it I I and and maybe we'll talk a little bit more about this in the episode.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what do I mean by resource, right?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like feeling strong, rested, supported, support system, um aligned.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you know what I mean?
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like feeling strong, feeling good, feeling um, yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: Anyways.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_04: Next question.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_04: What is the story your brain tells you when you're about to disappoint someone?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think for me it was always early on.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm much better at this now, but before it was I'm gonna be talked back into it.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if I hold my ground, I'm gonna be told why I shouldn't.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be told why I'm not correct, that I'm selfish, that I'm XYZ, like all the things.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, it was like sitting in that.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I was so wobbly when I would start to put down boundaries that I questioned it myself.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, should I be sitting there right now?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, questioning it yourself.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: And then the self-doubt gets loud when people start to question you.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna stick with I don't like getting blamed for other people's outcomes, but that's that's the thing.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of times work nos are really hard for me.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Really, really hard.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think nos um knows when the person I'm saying no to isn't well resourced.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: Like person specific.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like when I know, so so like there are people, there are like people who can tolerate nos better than others, right?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm gonna break it down less to like the domains of my life where the no's are hard and more to this people based on their capacity to tolerate it.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: So the people who I know are gonna go into victim or persecutor, right?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: They're gonna jump on that codependency triangle and they're either gonna go to like poor me and they don't have the resources to get themselves out of that, or they're gonna lash out at me and they don't have the um capacity to catch that.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_04: Uh those are the no's that are the hardest when people are not self-aware, not responsibility taking, those and they are somehow a stakeholder in my life.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_04: This is a key piece.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: This is a key piece, right?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like if there's something that is built into my life that either um is an expectation or something I rely on them for, they rely on me for, right?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like if there's some sort of expectation that is built into my life, um, those Can you give an example?
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_05: Um just for the listeners who aren't connecting the dots.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: So like at work, I think it's hard to say no because there's an expectation, right, that I show up and do my job, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like either if it's with my clients or if it's like, you know, something that we have set as a team and um, you know, somebody's relying on me for something, right?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_04: That is a harder no because there's an expectation that I show up and do a particular job.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_04: I've gotten really good over the years of understanding, though, that there are times where depleting myself beyond a certain level isn't worth it, or that um being able to vulnerably ask for what I need is a game changer.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but let's say it's somebody who um like I rely on for help, um, either with family logistics or um, you know, gosh, it could probably even be the long guy, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_04: But if it's somebody I'm relying on and if they suddenly are gonna withdraw their assistance or their service or their support or their whatever, right, I might hesitate because it's hard to feel like I can replace that thing or go without it, or you know, I think that people really struggle with that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when it comes down to business or finances or paycheck, right?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_04: I think people really, really struggle to say no at work because it threatens their livelihood and their sense of security.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_04: I think the same thing with family members, right?
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: Especially if you rely on them for help with child care.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_04: It threatens your sense of like, can I run my life without these people, even if they're disrespectful or intolerant or abusive or or or or or or um I think those are a single mom or in that space, having strong.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, we tolerate a lot of crap because our lives are built on we have stakeholders in our lives who we rely on who maybe are not ideal stakeholders.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it takes time to, you know, build stronger community, stronger support system to um yeah, that's a that's a process.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think you build yourself up to it too, though, right?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me when I was starting to practice boundaries and saying no, it was easier for me to do it with people that were non-stakeholders, you know, um, and just be able to kind of test it there first.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I kind of built more and more confidence, it became easier to say it to the people in my life who were like there was a bigger risk with right.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_04: So like the server at the restaurant brings you the wrong order.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_04: Are you someone who right?
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_04: Like can you say, I'm sorry, this wasn't what I asked for.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, that's like a entry-level entry level boundaries and and saying no and asking for what you need or what you yeah.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then we build it up to to building, yeah, to doing whatever.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it is difficult, I understand, when you have people that don't have capacity to receive what you're saying.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why a lot of times our divorced women get so frustrated when they're trying to make sense or communicate with their exes or co-parent.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's because they don't have capacity.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you can't expect this man who you had a marriage fall apart with due to XYZ, all of a sudden decide to show up to the table and have capacity and be able to communicate and honor what you need.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's not a thing.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_04: One of the greatest thinking errors I see people fall into over and over and over and over.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if this person could function this way, you would not be getting divorced.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: Correct.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: And they don't magically figure it out after.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_04: That's it's fascinating, isn't it?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: What are some of the ways uh you see women saying yes when they really mean no because they feel guilty about getting divorced?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: So whether it's to their ex or their kids or their family members or their community or you name it, like where do you see women betraying their yeses and no's post-divorce most frequently?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's overcompensating with their kids.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I preach this all the time because I was in the same boat.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I created a very codependent relationship with my daughter.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I said yes to everything.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I never wanted her to feel like we were a one-income household.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, we lived in a beautiful home in Myrtle Beach.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: We went on vacations.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, it came at the expense of expectation and things that I put on myself to feel like I had to provide a lifestyle.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't that I couldn't keep up with it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was that I didn't want her to ever do without.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, like she got to go to summer camp different years.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: She got to participate in all kinds of extracurriculars.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I just put such tremendous pressure on making her life feel quote unquote normal that it was at the expense of saying no and consequences and responsibility and accountability and all the shit that we're now learning later in life that hey, like this is stuff that I probably should have put my foot down on a long time ago.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I see it all the time in women that they they overparent from a place of guilt.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I would even say to depletion.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have women show up in session who are just depleted by parenting.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because they are operating from a place of what can I do to make their lives easy.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I notice women, this is slightly different, right?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_04: But I notice women um sort of get themselves into tight spots with all sorts of sex-oriented things uh where their yeses and no's get mixed up, right?
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_04: So whether it's friends with benefits with their ex and they're they're changing their yeses for no's because of loneliness, or because they struggle to say no to him, or because, you know, they want to win.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: If he's gone, then he's really gone.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: They want to have like some psychic connection or tie.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so it's it's like that last piece of letting go, right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_04: But then there's this constant like, I told myself I wouldn't do this anymore, and then doing it.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_04: And then I think also in dating, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like having some understanding of, well, these are my boundaries about dating, but then it going out the window in the early days when yeah, before you get good at really being um true to yourself.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think pushing him way too soon, too.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's hard when your friends are on the train of you should be over him, let's go out.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have this friend I want to come up with.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like So when your circle is also pushing you to move along faster than you feel like you should, it can really be hard to say no.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um and to just not kind of honor yourself and say, you know what, I really don't want to.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I recently had a conversation with a friend who's going through a divorce, and um in South Carolina, it's a 12-month separation period.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really archival.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and they were like, no, it's it's 12 months.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, legally you still can date if you want to.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's it has nothing to do with that.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: You just have to be separated.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Yeah, I know, but I really want to go the whole year.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Well, good for you.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um wanting to go a full year without really dating or getting yourself entangled in somebody else until your side of the street is cleaned up because I certainly didn't do that either time.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: But it burned.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: It burned.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm a slow learner.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so when somebody asks you to do something, and I want our listeners to really feel into this question as we talk about it, right?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_04: Somebody asks you to do something, what happens in your body before you even answer?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: For me, based on human design, I'm a full body yes or full body no, right?
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: So in my body, it takes me two seconds to make a decision.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's either yes, I absolutely think that's a wonderful idea and go for it, or no, I don't.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of like a pit in my stomach, or just kind of like this, and it's sometimes it's not even that extreme.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like there's an overall intuition where it's like, no, this is not going to be honoring to me.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm already feeling depleted, just thinking about it.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm already feeling anxious, like whatever that feeling is comes up in my stomach with literally in the first few seconds of being asked a question.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: So in my experience, I think my answer depends on how grounded or not grounded I am.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Because if I'm grounded and I'm in flow or I'm in self, right?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_04: Then similarly, my body will give me a yes or a no, and I'll be able to answer or say, um, well, like based on what you're presenting, I can't say yes, but can we look for an alternate path, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: I can ask for what I need, I can say my truth.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_04: But I think if I'm not grounded, I freeze.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: My body freezes.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And then I start scanning and analyzing and doing like all the not the things, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_04: Not the ideal ways.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it really again, capacity is such a game changer, right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: If um when we're triggered, when we're tired, when we're hungry, when we have to pee, when we have to, you know, whatever it is, we're not in our bodies when we're not embodied and more dissociative or stressed or whatever it is, it's it's a lot harder to be in tune with.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: So I think my body sometimes freezes or goes to over-intellectualizing, overthinking.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_05: We can say that.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_05: For so long, I didn't um I it wasn't clear because I received my validation from people pleasing and and making people love me through action.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_05: So like it took me so long to figure out what even a whole body yes or whole body no was, you know what I mean?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_05: And like being able to stand up and stand back from a situation or a decision that I really had to just take a minute.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_05: It it was it was a it's a learned process for me, um, on how you can really tell is this me wanting to please my children, my family, like you know, the ladies I work with, like is this a um or is this something that I truly feel good about doing inside my body?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_05: Um and so I really probably take too long sometimes to really send feel into it because it's just so such a new concept for me of how I proceed with um making decisions or you know, especially big decisions.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_05: This isn't like should I wear the brown shoes or the blue shoes?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like big life decisions are um something that I you really have to just take time and sit with before I learned it gets easier, but definitely took me some time.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's good too to imagine yourself too at the conference table, right, with all your parts.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's like when that decision comes up, it's like, okay, am I responding from a place of self or the ladies around the table who are my have different answers sometimes?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: My caregiver.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: My people pleaser, right?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like everyone wants to have a conversation.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like a lot of times with people, I'll tell them to pause and reflect.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just pause and reflect.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what are you coming at it from?
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Are you trying to fix?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Are you trying to caregive and manage people's emotions?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is it that you're wanting to do?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes that noise gets so loud in the beginning that you can't really hear your intuition.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can't feel into it because the managers take over so quick, you know, because it's like, oh my God, I'm gonna disappoint this person or oh my God, they're gonna be mad at me.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it happens in a split second.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so the the progress comes in slowing it down, right?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Just slowing it down, feeling into it, not responding right away.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I tell people when they're first starting to create boundaries.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Don't respond right away.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Tell people, I'm gonna think about that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that can even feel very powerful.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_04: Let me think about it.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: Let me get back to you.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, right.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_04: So good, right?
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: And, you know, there's so many reasons that we do this, uh, you know, and they are all based on early childhood experiences of what happened when we said disagreed, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I I think we can all agree as parents, like we much would prefer our children to go along to get along, get along to go along.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_05: I used to say, especially when they were little, like, I love that they're fiery.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: I love that they're feisty.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_05: I just wish they weren't so much with me.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_05: Just like just comply, just a little bit.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_04: Just say, okay, mommy.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um but truly, like when we go back and we unpack what it feels like to have disagreement throughout our histories.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's like that sense of separation.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to say abandonment necessarily.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_04: I do think you know, in many of our backstories, there are backstories.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_04: That's what I experienced.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_04: Absolutely.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like if I disagree with you, you are going to withdraw your love and affection.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you may get violent, you may punish me, literally, right?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like all the things.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's that sense of separation that you are no longer with me.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_04: You are now gone, or maybe even against me.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so when we're very, very young and we experience that repeatedly over and over and over again, we start to get the picture, like, oh, if I just agree, I don't have to feel this pain of separation or disconnection or um somebody being angry with me.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, it just really shapes us, molds us over time.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_04: Uh and it's not something um that can be repaired through just therapy or just remedies or just, you know, like homeopathic remedies or just somatics or just whatever, right?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's something that really does have to be practiced over time with real life people.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: And yeah, and that's the piece that I would say so many people don't realize when it comes to re-entering dating or it comes to like really looking at future relationships or going deeper or being able to develop a secure attachment style.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_04: There's no developing a secure attachment style without practicing practicing this with real life people and working through the triggers that come on the back end.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I talk about that a lot.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I was single for 10 years and thought I was quote unquote healed because I had all this awareness and knew what I was doing wrong.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And until I actually started dating again and started practicing and realized, oh, oh, wait, I'm still a little effed.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I hadn't been flexing that muscle.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't been practicing what trust looked like and what secure attachment looked like.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was a mess, you know, like so.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would just encourage women, yeah, like there are ways to practice it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the practice is what changes the neural pathway is in the brain.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the awareness.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can have all the awareness you want, but if you're not practicing it, the brain keeps reaching for the same things over and over.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's what's comfortable.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: And this is why we're so passionate about healing and community, because if you can't maintain self or, you know, consistently practice setting boundaries or noticing what your body is telling you when somebody asks you for something in a group of women, you're not going to be able to do it in your next relationship.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: It's just not going to be available, right?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_04: So Amen.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: But we want to bypass that part so much.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: So which leads me to my next question, right?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: Let's talk about a yes you've given over and over and over again and hoping that eventually you'll just feel differently about it.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think that's the lie we tell ourselves, right?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, eventually I'll be okay with this, or eventually I'll get strong enough for this, or eventually this thing won't bother me.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: And it's okay to say yes one more time.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it's like you don't realize, like, no, there's no.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_04: Can either of you think of a yes that you've given repeatedly and just hoped eventually it would get easier?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_05: Uh well, yes, there was a point in my marriage where I would say I would just comply, right?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_05: Like, you know, um, he wanted to go off and do this with this person or game with this person, or just constantly leaving the house.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_05: And I would tell myself eventually he'll stay home or eventually he'll not use these words, but eventually he'll choose us, my myself and my children.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_05: It'll change without me having to set a boundary.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_05: Like he'll it'll click one day.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_05: Lark, he'll he'll he'll get it one day.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_05: And he never really did until I started saying no.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_05: You know, like when I drew the line in the sand, that's when everything pivoted.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_05: But like I think a lot of times women um will just ass like will just say uh tell themselves over and over again, he'll he'll get it one day, or he'll understand one day, or you know, like if I just say yes enough, he'll see how amazing I am and love me more, or he'll just um, you know, like uh this makes me a better wife, this makes me a better partner, like he'll brag to his friends of how compliant I am, or how wanting him to do all these fun things.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_05: And in reality, that's just abandoning yourself.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_04: What about obligatory sex in marriages?
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_04: How many women say yes a lot because they do it to manage his mood?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was thinking as Joy was describing this.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I know she's talking about compliance, but that that is where yeah, it really, really resonates and hits.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: How many times do they get moody?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: How many times do they, you know what I mean?
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then it just gets uglier and uglier.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if you're not going to, then I'll just you know what I mean?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it just, oh boy, when you have to do it.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_05: I have a friend that says that, like she says he's in a better mood if I give give it to him a couple times a week.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh right.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_04: And so the bulk of women function in that category.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_04: And like, you know, if they say no repeatedly because the relationship is not in a great place, or because whatever it is, right?
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_04: Their bodies are saying no.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: If they were to honor what their bodies were telling them, what would then happen?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_04: What would become of the marriage, the life?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: What happens next?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_04: And it really is revealing, right?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_04: About how great we are as a couple at problem solving or actual intimacy or truth telling or um, you know, conflict resolution.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, like name it, right?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_04: So just saying no to sex or being in alignment with one's body about sex, romance, all those things, I think is such a litmus test in marriages.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I think it's one of the places as women we it's probably like one of the earliest warning signs.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I say that sex is the purest form of communication.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are not wanting to have sex, like there is a clear issue in emotional safety in the marriage, and that's for men and women.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many men that come to us that think they have ED.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's not ED, it's literally emotional unsafety in the relationship.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: So men experience it the same way, but they want to give excuses for it.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so for me, yeah, like I think that uh it's a big indicator.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel for women, right?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because as somebody who, you know, a lot of times if a woman is going to leave a marriage too, and depending on the situation you're in, it doesn't happen overnight.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's planning that has to take place, right?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have some form of an exit plan.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And trying to keep up with that facade that everything is okay towards the end so that he doesn't catch on to the fact that you're so far gone that you're making this plan for whatever reason, whether you're afraid of your for your safety, for your kids, like whatever that looks like, that can be hell to try to live in that fake performative world of let me just make it okay so he thinks everything Okay, so that I can plan my exit over here.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_04: No, it requires dissociation to an extent, right?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_04: Being able to leave the body, which is the gift of disassociation, right?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's a wonderful gift when used in an appropriate context.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um let's talk about the ways maybe women aren't in on the joke that they're doing this yet, right?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_04: How many ways do women not realizing realize they're betraying themselves or they're not in touch with what they're actually doing?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_04: So for instance, feeling like you're a generous person, you're a giver.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_04: But really underneath that is fear.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_04: Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe women haven't connected those dots yet.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: Can you think of other examples where women maybe aren't realizing they're betraying themselves or over yesing because there's something underneath it?
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_05: Um I personally I see women deplete, like um get burnout.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_05: So I think if if a woman is experiencing burnout, there's a reason, there's a underlying cause.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_05: Not, I mean, not the standard burnout.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_05: Like I feel like in today's world, a lot of women are burnout because of reality.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_05: But yeah, modern living.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_05: Right, right, right.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_05: Um, too many children, too many, whatever.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_05: But like you really peel it back and you're over um, if you're not taking time for you to reset, you're over saying yes, you're you're overperforming, you're over um parenting, providing, doing whatever you is the thing that is on your table at the moment, um, to an extent where now you're you're doom scrolling because you're so tired.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_05: Tiffany says a lot when you're when you're acting out of chaos.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_05: Is that when you're making decisions out of chaos, you need to you need to kind of peel back like, okay, what is really underlying in this moment?
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_05: Because saying no for yourself is the greatest gift and um such a pivot in your capacity for your children, for yourself, for your community.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: Uh but there's such a deep-rooted fear underneath there, right?
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: If I say no, what if my kids love him more than me?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_04: If I say no, what if I don't have enough money?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: If I say no, what if my friends don't want to be my friends anymore?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: If I say no, what if I'm rejected?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_04: What if I am not chosen?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: If I say no, what if I am no longer relevant to this person?
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if I say no, what if they get angry?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: If I say no, what if they like what if they get violent?
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_04: What if, what if a what if I get fired?
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: What if there's so much fear wound together with saying the word no?
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: It is remarkable.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: And it is just as much with ourselves, like, good golly, how many times have I had a hard time saying no to myself about endless things, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, whether it's eating the second cookie, like my brain and my body do not agree on how many cookies is the right amount of cookies.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_04: Or it's buying the shoes, or it's, you know, whatever the thing is that I don't want to say no to.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_04: Um, because something inside of me is acting out and doesn't want to feel a no, right?
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, so it's like we don't want to hear no sometimes, we don't want to say no sometimes.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_04: And it's all the same cycle, right?
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_04: Of how would you call that cycle, Tiffany?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's basically, I would say, like we say it's polarized, right?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's polarized, it keeps us in shame spiral.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like if you have an image manager that worries about what everybody thinks, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're the Instagram girl, you're posting the hot pics, the selfies, all of that, right?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: You're great, you're living your best divorce life.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have an overeating firefighter that wants to binge eat every time.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like then the manager gets pissed off at the firefighter and vice versa, right?
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because the image manager is saying, okay, well, you're eating, but we still need to look good.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're you're getting them away here, you know?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you stay in that shame cycle of, you know, and it's the same for women who drink.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's the same for women who use drugs or, you know, even sex, like any sort of numbing behaviors.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a perfectionist or an image manager, they are not gonna like that.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: So I have a a cycle that used to be really, really pronounced for me where I would say yes, burn myself out, and then I would want to escape on vacation.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_04: And then the figation will solve the thing, but it doesn't solve anything, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: Because the moment you're back, it's so, and I don't, I didn't want to be told no about any of that.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um so it's really interesting.Anywhere we're uh compromising our yeses and no's, there's gonna be a bleed over, right?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: A firefighter behavior to compensate for it.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: Or suffering.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it lies in the awareness that we know that we're doing it, which is what I love when clients can start to see is hey, I still did the thing this weekend, but I knew it was there.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was very conscious of what was happening.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: Because then it's like, okay, well, next time then let's try to stop the train a little bit quicker.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit more, you know.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's the goal, right?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, we're not asking for that perfection.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're asking for the awareness and then to just start intercepting a little bit more.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I get it, right?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Those dopamine hits are strong.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you're in an unaltered state and you just don't want to feel what you're feeling.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: It feels so much better to drink the glass of wine, to go out and smoke a joint, to, you know, call up your hookup.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like those things feel so much better.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: But in the end, the next day you wake up and you feel like shit, you know, and it just starts all over again.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't fix anything.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes uh say, like Friday morning dawn made a commitment that Friday night dawn can't maintain, or vice versa, right?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, yeah, sometimes we're just not honest with ourselves about um what we need and our capacity.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_04: And um, yeah, and and and the power to change our minds and that being okay, right?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_04: To be able to circle back and say, ooh, but it's like humbling, right?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_04: To circle back and say, like, Tiffany, the example you gave in the very, very beginning, which was so raw, right?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_04: Like circling back to dad and saying, like, wow, dad, I love you so much.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I realize I can't follow through on this thing.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's also, I want to just point this out because I think that this is super interesting too.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this just popped into my brain.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: But like back then, like Tiffany the party girl, she surrounded herself with people who never heard no from her.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I have all these friends and all these people who I was always down to do whatever.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, hey, girl, let's go out.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, let's do this.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, let's do that, you know?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: You were a sure thing.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was always a sure thing, right?
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like hit me up and I'm always down for a party.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I started trying to get out of that, God, it was so hard because oh, those are the people you want to let down, right?
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, think about that for a moment.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_04: So if you are someone who has trouble saying no to people, like if you were always saying yes to go out, the people you were surrounding yourself with, were they good at hearing no?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_04: Were they good at saying no?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because then what I would say no, right?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: They would be like, Oh, you're such a party poop, you're such a downer, like F the we're coming to get you.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: They'd knock on my door, they'd show up on my hat.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, they had no boundaries.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: They were boundaryless.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was beautiful because I never said no, right?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_04: The less boundaried we are, the more we attract people who are not boundaried.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_04: And then setting boundaries is really painful.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: And the whole thing is such a process and evolution of being able to move from boundaryless to well boundaried.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it is not gonna happen without loss.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_04: Holy crap.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the hardest thing when you have a fear of being disappointed is when you're the girl that always says yes and you say no to somebody, whether it's a guy that is used to just being able to hook up whenever, and you say no, not tonight, and you get that text back that says, Well, fuck you then, or just like some like snarky comment.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Ghosting.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: Then it's like it reinforces that period of like, I'm a disappointment.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: I have no worth.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not, you know, like nobody wants me unless I'm the fun girl, like whatever.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it makes me nauseous to think about that cycle.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was in because like it's the truth.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the truth.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I see it in some of our clients, and it's just like, oh God, like it's a process to weed out those people.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: No, and that's the difference between knowing something intellectually and it being embodied or believing it, right?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like people can say, I know I'm worthy intellectually, like, or they can, you know, quote all these beautiful self-help books or song lyrics or scripture, you name it.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_04: But when it comes down to actually being able to set the boundary and believe in your worth and your value and that it doesn't come from productivity or performance or people pleasing, like moving it from your head to your heart, that's uh what does they say?
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_04: That's like the longest 12 inches or 18 inches or whatever it is you'll ever.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, really, really, really tricky shit.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: So the thing that we're actually installing alongside of boundaries is self-respect, right?
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because the the reason we end up being boundaryless is very often a lack of self-respect and a lack of self-acceptance.
• 40:41
  unknown: Right.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: And um and fear.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: Fear, fear, fear, fear, fear that we're not gonna have our needs met.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, whether they're relational needs, financial needs, you know, um that we're not gonna get our needs met.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: So it's some combination of being terrified we have to control in order to get our needs met, and that we don't feel worthy.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_04: And our environment at the beginning, right, our environment is gonna reinforce those false narratives and it's it's incumbent upon us as women to stick with it and and revamp it.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_04: Anything you ladies want to add about yeses and no's in that journey post-divorce, especially?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_05: It's very empowering when you start saying no from a place of self and start putting your needs first.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think that there's an underlying I don't want to be selfish, I don't want to be perceived as selfish, I don't want to be perceived as a hard one or whatever.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_05: When you start really feeling into your yeses and your no's you start sleeping better.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_05: You start you know what I mean, like you there's tangible things that start rippling out in the water of your life.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and it's very empowering and um exciting when you can kind of start seeing it.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know how last week we we actually started talking about what is love in the episode.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yeah.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_04: Like codependency isn't love, right?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_04: Codependency is attachment, right?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's some sort of less than secure attachment.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's gratification, it's addiction, codependency is all of those things, but it is not love, right?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_04: When you start honoring your yeses and no's and getting to know what you need and getting to know who the people in your life truly are and what motivates them, and start really noticing where people continue to want to come to the table to get to know you, to get to your know your needs and vice versa.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: You know, like I'm thinking about some of the ways we've navigated even as a team this last quarter.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, you know, about who's driving where and how are we meeting and how are we going to accomplish these things when one of us is in the weeds.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I love being able to operate as a team from the place of everything is always working out for us.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_04: There is a solution, there's a path to a solution, right?
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: And then just being able to have that conversation about how would this feel for you, how would this feel for you, how would this feel for you, and finding being able to navigate to yeses in our bodies.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_04: Uh that feels really good.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I think that's what you're getting at, Joy, is it feels really good to feel seen, but at a level deeper than I have to say yes all the time in order to be chosen.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_04: I can actually be honest with myself and be with and be honest with you, and you're still gonna choose me.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_04: That is more in the realm of love, self-love, love with others, team.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_05: As the woman who's who struggles with this the most, I really implore you to write on your mirror in a dry race marker.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_05: There's always a solution, there's always a solution.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_05: Because when we adapted, when I personally adapted that motto, everything pivoted.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_05: Like I don't have to be the solution for everything.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_05: There is ample resources, even if I don't see them yet, there is a solution.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_05: And so write that on your mirror.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_05: And that way every day you can remind yourself that there is a solution.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_05: There's always a solution.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_05: Do a little mirror message.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_05: We're big fans of it over here, right?
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_04: All right, my darlings.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_04: If you want the opportunity to get better at your yeses being yeses and your no's being no, this is something that comes a lot faster and cleaner when you practice it in community with women who understand what you're working on and can meet you in that process.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_04: So we strongly encourage you to jump into Cocoon, which is our free community where you can, you know, participate in our monthly magic drops and you can be having these conversations with other women where you can attend workshops and you can practice trying these things on.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_04: It's so, so, so powerful and a game changer in your healing.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_04: So, link in show notes.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_04: Join us in Cocoon.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_04: We love you so much.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: Peace.