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The 10 Defining Golf Courses of the Past 15 Years · Designing Golf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Here's the thought experiment. You're a golf nerd and it's
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: twenty fifty five. When you look back on the years
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: between twenty ten and twenty twenty five, what are the
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: ten golf courses that define that period for you? What
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: are the really great ones, or the influential ones, or
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: just the ones that represent the era in some way.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: In this episode, we're trying to figure out what those
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: courses will be the ten defining golf courses of the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: past fifteen years. I'm Garrett Morrison and this is designing golf,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: all right. So I'm here with my colleagues Andy Johnson
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: and Matt Ruschius, Andy, founder of Frida Egg Golf. How
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: you doing today?
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I'm doing great, Excited to do this. This is I
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: have to say, I'm a little jealous that I didn't
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: think of this topic for the Fried Egg Pod. So
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: this is a fun thought experiment.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: And Matt you're here as well. How are you doing
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: doing well?
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: Excited to hear what you guys have to say, because
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: I feel like you can kind of take the word
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: defining in very many different directions. So I'm curious to
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: see you guys's point of view and see how it
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: differs from mine.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, first of all, before we get into the
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: discussion of what constitutes defining, I should address the timeframe
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: that we've chosen here, twenty ten to twenty twenty five.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: First of all, I need to acknowledge that that is
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: in fact sixteen years. The time from the beginning of
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: twenty ten to the end of twenty twenty five is
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: in fact sixteen years, But I'm calling it the past
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: fifteen years because I just really don't feel like calling
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: it the past sixteen years. In any case. The idea
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: behind this timeframe is that what we're dealing with here
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: is the post recession era, and the recession was a
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: major shock to golf course development and golf course architecture.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: It changed the way that things had to be done.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: And so what we're talking about is this is this
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: odd little time period from about twenty ten to to
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the current day where the golf course industry had to
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: reinvent itself in some ways. And then there was another
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: shock in the middle of it in COVID. And of
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: course things have changed big time once again during the
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: twenty twenties. So I thought it was a good moment
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: here at the end of twenty twenty five to kind
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: of reflect on what this period has meant in the
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: golf course industry and talk about some of the courses
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: that have stood out in some way. But yeah, I've
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: chosen this adjective defining for the episode. There are a
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: number of other you know, there are various various adjectives
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: I could have gone with here. I did not go
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: with best for a reason. You know, this is not
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: a list of the best courses that we're going to
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: do because I was a little bit less interested in
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: speaking in those terms. Yeah, when you guys think of
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: what constitutes a defining course, what do you think of, Andy,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: what comes to mind when you think of a defining
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: golf course?
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: I think one of the keys here is you're prompt
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: of is twenty fifty five, and you're thinking back to
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: this period of time, and it would be the courses
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: that jumped your mind, and I kind of think of
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: defining into different superlative buckets. This is not the best
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: they are to me, golf courses that that they could
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: be the best, Like you're going to have like what
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: you think is the best of that period, but also
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: there are other bins that you could put it in
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: as most influential things that changed the way people thought
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: of certain types of golf. And I think that's the
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: premise here which makes this a really fun discussion, because
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: it isn't necessarily the.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Best golf courses.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: It is the ones that kind of changed the way
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: that the general public thought about a certain type of golf.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Is my kind of way I'm I'm approaching this or
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: the way that maybe it possibly influenced and changed the
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: way golf courses were built, or how it changed the
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: trends in golf course architecture. Like that's the way I'm
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: thinking about it a little bit.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, and these can be changes for better for worse. Yes,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you know, I think most of the courses that we'll
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: talk about we would probably argue for better. We're not
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: going to talk about many, if any straight up bad courses.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: But these are not necessarily, as you say, the best courses.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: They are there, they just loom large in the historical period.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: They are historically important in some way, Matt, anything to
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: add to that with this you task of trying to
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: define what defining means?
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Andy summed up kind of what I immediately
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: thought to of when you kind of gave this prompt
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  Speaker 3: to us. One thing that I kind of like keyed
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: in on was trying to identify golf courses from this
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: era that like set a precedent and then kind of
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: like were these trailblazers for a new model of golf
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: or like a kind of radical way of thinking, So
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: trying to pinpoint like that origin golf course that kind
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: of like paved this way for other courses to come
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: from behind it. So that was one thing that I
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: kind of used to try and target, like one that's
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: more defining than another, because a lot of them can
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: fall in the same buckets when you go through the list.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which course first of all came first and which
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: course actually brought about the change, you know, because sometimes
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: some courses come first, but they don't have quite the
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: effect that the second effort has. I think we'll talk
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: about a couple of those examples in this episode. But
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: it's interesting how history works sometimes where something might be first,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily change everything right away. It is
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the second thing in that genre or in that vein
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that really pushes it. But being first is important, and
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: the things that are that come the earliest will we'll
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: definitely get some priority here. So yeah, I mean when
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I think of defining, I break it down into a
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: few different buckets. A course can be defining in like
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: a number of different ways, and it doesn't necessarily have
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: to be any one of these things. It doesn't have
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: to be all of these things. So a course can
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: be defining just by being really great. So that's one thing,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: right when we think of the defining courses of the
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: of the nineteen teams in the US, those are National
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Golf Links and Pine Valley, maybe a couple others, but
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: they're the really great courses. And so that's one thing
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: that you certainly need to consider. But you don't necessarily
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: need greatness to be defining. You can also have influence.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: It can be an influential course, which is a lot
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: of what you guys are speaking to. A course that
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: changes something, changes the way that people view architecture or development.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: You can have a course that's sort of representative of
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: a larger trend. That's another way a course can be defining.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: A course that kind of embodies a broader historical dynamic
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: that is going on in the period in which the
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: course was built. And then finally there's there's you know
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: another category that I want to consider here, and that
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: is uniqueness. And so this is almost sort of opposed
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: to being representative of a larger historical trend, right because
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: if you're representative, you're by definition not not unique. But
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: I think courses can be defining by by having some
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: thing about them that is just different, and they can
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: stand out for that reason. So I think really any
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: of those factors can be can be at play here.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: So all right, so's those are our general criteria. I
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: want to dive now into actually picking some courses, and
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: as we as we pick courses, we can kind of
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: talk about some of the broader macro trends of golf
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: architecture and development over the past fifteen years, which I
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: think are very interesting. But the way we're going to
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: do this is kind of draft style. But it's not
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: a competitive draft necessarily. We're not selecting courses so that
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: we have the best three courses or whatever. We're trying
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: to sort of collaborate here to come up with the
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: best list of ten courses, and we'll alternate choosing one
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: course at a time until we get to nine, and
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: then at the end we'll, you know, together, we'll kind
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: of choose a tenth course that we really think should
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: be on the list. So that's kind of the method
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: that we'll use here, and I will, you know, make
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: a note before we start picking courses that, you know,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: for our international listeners, we are three Americans here. We
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: all live in the US. We are most familiar with
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: US courses. Now, we we aren't necessarily going to be
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: choosing all courses that we have seen. We can select
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: courses that we haven't been to but we know to
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: be defining in some way. But just the fact that
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: we live in the US and have been involved in
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: a golf World discussion that that kind of revolves around us,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: you know, talking to other Americans and seeing American courses,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: that's going to put an idea in our minds that
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: American courses kind of are are maybe a bigger deal
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: than they would be to somebody who lives in South
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Africa or somebody who lives in New Zealand. So we'll
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: try to be we'll try to make some gestures toward
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: international news, but this is our list. We are three Americans,
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: and just take it. Take it in that spirit. We're
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: not trying to be We're not trying to be defining
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: with our defining list. All right, why don't we start
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: with Andy's pick? Andy, I'm gonna give you the first pick.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: And you're being so deferential giving me the first pick here.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: It's it's very kind of me. I know that we
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: all really wanted to have the first pick. Andy. What
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: do you? What do you? What are you gonna? Where
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: are you gonna go with for our first defining golf
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  Speaker 1: course of this period?
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 4: I this is this is hard to pick first.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: I know. I looked at it myself and I tried
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: to figure out which course I would pick first, and
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: I could not figure it out.
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna go with Terry d number one.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Going international right off the bat. That's great.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I I just am picking this because it this
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: golf course and the the success of it, leading to
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: the tri I golf courses being built, has thrust the
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: North Island of New Zealand into like dream trip for
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: ardent golf fans, golf travelers. It has made New Zealand
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: a you know, extremely you know, desired golf destination. And
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: there were great golf courses on New Zealand, you know,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: in New Zealand before Terry Dy there were but Terry
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Edy and the level of that it's reached on I
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: think on one of the world lists it's in.
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: The top ten.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: The impact that it then that then followed with the
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: building of a world class resort that's open to the public.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: I think this you're talking about lifting an entire country's
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: you know, tourism economy and making it a world class
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: golf destination.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: To me, if i'm you know.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Comes down to it, I think it completely changed the
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: golf landscape in New Zealand and will continue to change
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: the golf landscape in New Zealand.
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: We're seeing more.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: And more development there and I think we will continue
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: to see more and more development there and New Zealand.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: You know, if it's the year twenty fifty, I think
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: New Zealand will be among you know, the most sought
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: after golf vacations as people have more time and travel
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: becomes easier.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Matt Any thoughts about this course.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the one thing that kind of jumped to my mind,
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: and this is sort of a recency bias take here,
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: but there's a lot of people talking about Children's Hall
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: course getting into golf dot COM's top one hundred world
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: rankings at seventy third, and I looked back and when
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: Tera Edy debuted in their same rankings, it was twenty ninth. Yeah,
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: so nearly like forty places higher than all this like
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: talk came about out with Children's Hall joining in at
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: like seventy fourth or whatever it was. So it had
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: this like enormous splash in kind of the modern golf
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: ecosystem when it was debuted, and it continues to climb
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: in like every publishing ranking. I know when I was
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: like younger, and I was like I created a list
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: of like courses I wanted to visit at some point
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: in my life when I was probably like fifteen or
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: sixteen years old, when I was starting to get into
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: golf architecture, and Tara Edie was like one of the
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: first that I wrote down on my list. So like,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: I feel like that kind of puts it in perspective
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: someone who doesn't really know that much and is getting
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: into it as already like pinpointing this golf course is
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: something notable, and it seems to be like kind of
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: a consensus that it's it's the best modern golf course
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: since since essentially like Sandhills that fits in this time
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: zone that we're talking about Matt.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Just the fact that you were fifteen or sixteen and
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: tara Edy existed is kind of blowing my mind right
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: now because this course opened in twenty fifteen. So that's yeah,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: I'll just I'll just leave that behind. But yes, it is.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: It has to be said that tara Ed is the
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: highest ranked golf course in this period that we're talking about,
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: and it's not really that close. I don't think when
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: you look at the world top one hundred rankings, and
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: of course you know, put whatever stock you want to
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: in these rankings, I don't personally put a ton, but
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: it is representative of influence and definingness. Right ta Ed
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: is blowing away the twenty ten to twenty twenty five
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: competition right now, and I think that's probably because one,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: the golf course is really really excellent, wonderfully designed in
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: an incredible location. And also I think a factor here
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: is the model of Tara Edy. This is a destination
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: private club that is connected now to a destination resort.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: And if we're talking about what the broader historical trend
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: is that Tera Edy represents between twenty ten and twenty
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: twenty five the rise of the destination private club and
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: the continuing predominance of the destination resort is a big,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: big story. I think tera Edy fits right into the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: middle of that. It is relatively remote, not easy for
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: many people across the world to get to, but it
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: is attracting people because of how spectacular it is and
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: because of what people are saying about the course after
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: they play it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: I you know, I would agree with all of that.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: But I think when you're looking at this, you know,
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: twenty five years from now, you're talking about the creation
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: of a royal county down a La hinch A, you know,
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Sunningdale in a country, a royal Melbourne of New Zealand.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: And to me, that's the thing, is like, there are
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of courses, great courses in New Zealand that
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: I want to go see, but nothing of the world
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: class caliber. And I think to be a great golf destination,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: you know, to be one where you know, loads of
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: tourists are coming to and flocking to, you have to
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: have the top of the top, the top shelf, and
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: at that, no matter what else do you want to say,
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: it could have any model in the world, it could
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: be daily fee, it would still be at this point,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: you know, A good question would be is it Would
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: it be as highly rated if it was a daily fee.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: That's that's what I sort of sort of doubt it
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: because the experience would be different, but you know it
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be I don't think it would drop out of
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: the top one hundred.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is a golf course that literally will
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: define New Zealand golf for the next one hundred years.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: And that's why, like I when you know, you put
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: the gun to my head, number one pick, this is it, Like,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: I don't think anything else can touch it, because no
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: other golf course that has been built in the last
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: fifteen years will have a cultural impact on an entire
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: country the way that Terry is having on New Zealand.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, very persuasive, Matt. I'm going to give you the
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: second pick. What are you going with?
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I thought this one was going to maybe be the
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: first pick, so shocked to that it's still here. But
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go with the Lido at Sand Valley.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: This was, in my purview, was probably.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Toward the top of all of our lists. Second Tom
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Doak course in a row, though this one was a
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: collaboration between Tom Doak, Brian Schneider and C. B McDonald.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, I guess you can put it that way.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: I feel like it's a very hard one to pinpoint
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: who's is the true true the.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Robots built it, maybe, yeah, maybe Peter Floory built it.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Brian Zeger would be.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Brian Zager is very important, Yeah.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Peter Floory, Yeah, They're all important in this.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: But this is a golf course that was built at
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: one period of time and essentially lost from its original location.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: With tons of historical research, data collection, creativity, and some
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: brilliant golf architects and golf mines came together and essentially
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: recreated a golf course that is nearly over one hundred
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: years old and lost and created it in what seems
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: like near like as close as you possibly could with
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: the information that was present and the style that they
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: did it using GPS bulldozers where you're essentially plugging in
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: data and essentially elevations on the ground and these bulldozers
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: are just spitting out what that data is telling it to.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: It was sort of a revolutionary way to build a
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: golf course and certainly a trail blazing style of golf
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: course construction. And we've already now seen more golf courses
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: using the same technology, even just this year building a
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: new golf course in Florida. So I think you have
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: to include this golf course of this era for defining.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: This any thoughts about the Lido and its position in history, Andy.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think Matt hit on it at the end.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: This is a golf course that's going to revolutionize the
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: way golf courses are built. That's going to be it's
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: a lasting impact. It's a great it's super fun golf
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: course to play, It's a great golf course. It it
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: has a super interesting model which I think will be
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: a similar model to you know how some more courses,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: like we saw Forest Dunes is something doing something very similar,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: uh in terms of model with Skyfall. But to me,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: we're going to see so many golf courses built in
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: similar fashion with GPS, do dozers and the idea of mimicking.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: You know, some.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Features of famous golf courses, and I think we've already
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: seen it. Sand Glass is a new course that's would
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: be on this list that use that technology and a
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: you know, and it's a much different version of this.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: The twenty one Club is another course that is opening.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: I think next year you know they're doing some some
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: preview play now, but you know they'd be a twenty
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: twenty six course that uses this type of technology. And
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I think, like what it's long term effect will be,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: you know, as we go forward, is it's going to
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: change the definition of what a great site is because
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: of how wonderful this technology is is that you don't
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: necessarily have to have a site with like the most
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: sensational natural gifts where you have that like rolling dramatic
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: sand dunes. I think what the bigger you know, kind
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: of pull out here will be if you have deep sand,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: it can be flat and you can build a great
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: golf course. Because you see with the Lido, it is
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: not a naturally blessed site, but there is a great
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: golf course on it. Sand glass from what I have
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: not been on site, from what I've been told, you know,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: not a naturally gifted site, but very deep sand which
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: allowed them to create elevation by going both down and
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: putting that stuff up. So I think the big thing
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: here is those GPS, GPS dozers and the you know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the ability to punch in that is going to really
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: change the golf construction world. And that's going to be
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: something you know, twenty years from now, where that is
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: going to probably be pretty normal in golf course construction.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: There could be a historical shift in a couple of
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: ways with the LIDO. I think this point that you
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: make andy about it potentially redefining what makes a good
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: site for golf is an important one because a major
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: overall narrative of the twenty ten to twenty twenty five period,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: and you could extend this period before that, is the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: search for great sandy rolling sites, the search for great
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: golf land that isn't enormously expensive, and so that has
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: really driven a lot of development and a lot of
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: the best architecture of the past fifteen years. Maybe that
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: might be starting to change. We can start to look
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: at sites that are a little bit closer to population
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: centers potentially and do something interesting with them. Now, I'm
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: not suggesting that this will be cheap or that this
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: will be an accessible way to do architecture for every
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: kind of client an architect and client base, but it
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: certainly would be a very interesting shift. The other thing
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: about the LEADO that's kind of representative of the period
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: that we're talking about. You know, we've talked about the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: ways in which the Lido is changing how things will
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: be done. But it also represents kind of the culmination
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: of this love for Golden Age architecture, and more specifically
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: the love for the architecture of CB McDonald and Seth Rayner.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: As of thirty years ago, or even twenty five years ago,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: CB McDonald and Seth Rayner were not the most highly
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: respected Golden Age architects. Their profile was starting to increase
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: a little bit among golf course architecture officionados, but in
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the general golfing public, I don't think that they were
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: nearly as well regarded as your Alistair McKenzie's or your
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Harry Colt's or your William Flynn's. Right, they were considered
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: sort of a relics of a previous era to an
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: extent that has changed a lot in the past twenty
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: years or so, and the Lido really shows how far
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: advanced that that trend is now, where we're literally we're
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: trying to recreate with as much accuracy as possible. The
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: work of these architects, who, you know, thirty to forty
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: years ago were not probably considered worth this effort, and
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: so that's that's one way in which the Leedo kind
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: of is a sign of the times that we live.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: In when you when you look ahead. Also, there's going
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: to be bad actors. Well I'll call them bad actors,
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: but you could say they aren't bad actors. With this technology,
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: are we going to see let's just say, a Augusta
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: National remake it built in Saudi Arabia or Vietnam. I
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: don't think that's a crazy thought that that might happen,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: or you know, maybe not Augustin National, but other famous courses.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Does someone have to find a really sandy site and
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: build a t a pine valley remake to as much
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: just back as possible in a far flung country. The
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: number you know, the why you know a lot of
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: regarded as the greatest golf course in the world. That
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: could happen with this and that it will be fascinating
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: if that happens. To see how it is received. I
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: think there will be a lot of people that'll be
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: like this sucks. I think there will also be a
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: lot of people that are very happy, especially if it's
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: accessible to the public.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: Could be a Pandora's Box moment for sure. Yes, all right,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: so we have got Terry Edy and the Leado I'm
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: going to give my third pick here. I'm just going
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: right across the street in Nikusa, Wisconsin. I'm choosing Mammoth Dunes.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, I was I was gonna I My pick
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: was San Valley from from there, but now I'm going
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: to scratch that from my.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: So there were a couple of options that I was
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: considering here, aside from just totally different golf courses which
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: are also in contention. I think for me Gamble Sands.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: I could have gone with Gamble Sands here, and I'd
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: like to discuss that I'd be willing to be swayed
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: off of Mammoth Dunes and toward Gamble Sands. I do
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: like Gamble Sands better as a golf course. Gamble Sands
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: was a David McLay kid course that was built a
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: couple of years before Mammoth Dunes and really represented the
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: shift in kids' philosophy toward maximal playability. And Mammoth Dunes
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I think confirmed that philosophy and pushed it even further.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: But the reason Mammoth Dunes might be to pick here
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: is that I think it probably is going to be
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: more influential ultimately than Gamble Sands more people have seen
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: this golf course. It's in a location that is easier
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: to get to for most people, and it's at a
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: resort that does a lot, a lot, a lot of business.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Gamble Sands is relatively remote. It does a good business
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: as well, but it's got two courses and a short course.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: At this point, Sand Valley is a mecca and Mammoth
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Dunes is an example of David Kidd's refreshed philosophy of
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: golf architecture. In the middle of his career, Kid went
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: more towards difficulty and kind of extreme features. With Gamble Sands,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: he returned to what he characterized as his kind of
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: original principles of playability and fun. He also is trying
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: to rethink this idea of visual intimidation visual deception. Since
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the Golden Age, golf architects have generally believed that visual
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: deception is a good thing, that you should fool golfers
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: into thinking that a shot is more difficult than it
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: actually is through visual trickery. David Kidd is saying no, no, no.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: What we should be doing is giving golfers confidence when
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: they stand on the tee. They should pull out a
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: driver and feel confident that they can whale away at
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: the ball. We want to encourage golfers to play well,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: to have fun, to rip driver, and to shoot their
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: lowest scores. Ever, we want them to hit approaches that
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: end up closer to the whole than they thought they would,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: not farther away than they thought they would. And you
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: can argue against this philosophy, and I definitely would, but
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt that it is a highly original way
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to approach golf architecture. And the reason why it's important
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: is that architects and developers now have to react to it,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: whether they disagree with it or agree with it, because
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: of what Kid did at Gamble Sands and then at
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: a higher profile at Mammoth dunees because of what he
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: did at those courses, now everybody else has to react.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: And it should be said that Mammoth Dunes is an
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: extremely popular and beloved course by the average golfer, and
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: certainly as the years unfold and golfers continue to react
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: that way, probably to Mammoth Dunes and to Gamble Sands,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: developers and architects are going to think, well, maybe this
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: is a good idea. And I suspect that we'll see
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: more courses along these lines.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: I think an interesting component to this one is that
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: this was the pushing of the width trend, which really
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: started in I would say the early two thousands, you know,
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: really started in the late nineties with with like sand Hills,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: the idea of giving space, and you know, Tom Doak
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: and Bill cor and we're really you know, fundamental to
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: this idea. And I think what happened this was like
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: the Big Mac era of golf courses, where David Kidd
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: builds Gamble Sands, builds Mammoth Dunes, Gil Hants builds a
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: stream Song Black, which is also very much in this
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: one of the things that and this is just an anecdote.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: I've never I never hear someone say that.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Mammoth Dunes is like Goofy Golf for tricked up or
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: you know, I hear people love stream Song Black. I
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: hear people say that, but I also hear people come
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: off frustrated by stream Song Black. She tells me that
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Gil Hans executed the really big wide golf better than
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: David Kid. The job of in my opinion, and this is,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: you know, the whole debate about Mammoth Uns is the
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: job of the golf course to be a defender, an
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: active and willing defender to the golf golfer.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: You know, that is to me.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: The underlying tension and golf and what we love about
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: golf and what makes it different than bowling in darts
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: and and this is what makes general sports really fun,
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: whether it's tennis or or you know, playing basketball, is
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: you have an opponent that you're playing against in golf.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: You know from your youngest ages, if you're playing competitive golf,
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: you're not playing the other golfers. You're playing the golf course.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: And and this type of golf that David Kidd had
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: introduced with the gamble sands kind of took the defender
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: out of play and it's more of a shoot around
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: the course is a helper, Yeah.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: The golf courses your is your fluffer.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like playing baseball with a t so, you
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: know ball. And I think that there's been a reaction
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: in the golf industry that is pushed back on this,
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: and we're seeing more narrow golf courses since this. I
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: think there was a general reaction after Mammoth Dunes that
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: said we've gone too far on this.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I found it interesting that as soon as Mammoth Dunes opened,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: you saw Tom Doaks start talking about how maybe width
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: had gone too far, yes, and start talking about his
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: interest in building some narrower golf courses. And so certainly
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: it's something that's on the minds of architects, and that
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: is that is basically my argument for why this course
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: is going to end up being defining.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: What I find fascinating is the difference between Mammoth and
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: stream Song Black.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: For example.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, stream Song Black has very severe greens. You know,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: they're big, they're huge, but they have these different pockets.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: So where Mammoth Dunes, most of the greens I think
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: twelve of the eighteen greens have are basically punch bowls,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: which you know, they corral of the ball in. So
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: you have these big helping fairways that a lot of
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: them are also punchable fairways where you have like helping
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: slopes that corral balls in, and then you also have corralling.
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: Greens.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: There is no real defense at stream Song I think
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: is an interesting blend where they might be as severe
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: of greens as gill Is built, but he's giving you
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: all the room in the world off off the tee
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: and what you can do with those severe greens is
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: work yourself into positions.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: And this is the one.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Of the things that I've thought about, and I'd be
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: curious your guys thoughts.
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: You know, I'll finish this thought real quick.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: But you can work yourself into positions that create those
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: bulls that Mammoth has, but they aren't all easily discernible
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: on first play or just like completely laid out for you.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: This is just a big bull.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: A question I have is should architects is the best
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: architecture at resources where the vast majority of people only
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: play at once or maybe once every three years. Should
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: it be really fascinatingly intricate? And this is the thing.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Mammoth Uns is the most popular golf course at at
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: Sand Valley, and I would say, of all, almost every
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: golf course that I've played on this list the least intricate.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: That's a really interesting question because something I thought about.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: I had Mammoth Dunes as the number two course on
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: my list, and the reason I got there is because
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: for so long golf has been about difficulty in trying
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: to challenge the golfer and creating difficult golf courses. And
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: then you have like the USGA rating system of slope
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: and rating, and it seems like it seemed like there
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: was a period of time where people were seeing how
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: hard of golf courses we could build, and then David
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: McLay kid comes along and essentially flips that question on
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: top of itself and says, how easy of a golf
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: course can I build? And in turn, the way I
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: see this is if golf courses are puzzles. We're building
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: these very complex, intricate puzzles that were very difficult and
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: you had to think in many different ways to solve them,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: and then this is a much more straightforward puzzle, Like
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: you could say that this is like the two x
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: two Rubiks cube compared to the three y three Rubik's cube.
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: It's like there's this exponential difficulty in solving from one
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: to the other. And I just think it's fascinating that
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: it took so long in golf history to like kind
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: of come to this moment where we're actively trying to
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: make a golf course fun and easier for the average
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: golfer to play. Because everyone always talks about golf is like,
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: oh I suck at golf, No one's good at golf.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: Everyone's always degrading their own game. And maybe that's because
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: we've just been building difficult golf courses for the past
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: one hundred years, and now finally we have a golf
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: course that seems to be one of the first. At least,
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: if I had to pick one out, this has to
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: be the first golf course that was built with the
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: sole purpose of being fun, which in turn makes it
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: easier for most people to play.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Kid was turning a lot of long held assumptions among
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: golf architects, specifically, not among players necessarily, but among golf architects.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: He was turning a lot of those assumptions on their head.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: The idea, since again the Golden Age, has been that
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: intricate golf architecture is better. Golf architecture should be intellectually
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: engaging for the educated gentlemen and gentlewomen. Golf courses should
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: engage their minds at a high level. And Kidd came
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: in and said, well, actually, I think the most important
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: thing is that people have fun and that they come
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: away from their round with confidence and a sense of elation.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: Now Andy kind of gestured at the potential problem with
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: this approach to golf courses is that it wears thin
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: after a few Once you figure out that the golf
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: course is helping you, you don't really have a motivation
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: to play it again and again and again. So I
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: think a lot of the architectural philosophy established by the
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Golden Age was based on the idea that we were
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: building member courses. We were building courses that people would
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: play over and over again, and we had to build
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: sufficiently interesting and intricate courses for members to like them
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: for a long time to come. But Sand Valley Golf
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Resort is a different context. This is dream golf. This
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: is a couple of times in your lifetime usually golf,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: and perhaps that requires a different approach. Now, again, I
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: have my issues with this philosophy of golf course design,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: but it's hard to say that it's dumb. It's not dumb.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: Actually a really smart shift of priorities. And so I
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: think that's what's interesting about Mammoth dudes.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: You know, like, at the end of the day, and Matt,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: you're an architecture major, Garrett, you're a You're an English major,
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: so you're much more men of the arts than me
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: an environmental science major.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: You know, very much more men of the arts.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: But I mean at a certain level, golf architecture as
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: an art form is it's an art form. What you're
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: trying to do with art is evoke reactions. And I
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: think one of the greatest achievements of Mammoth Dunes is
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: it evokes a very wide range of reactions. And I
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: think that has a lot of merit and and I
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: you know, there are a lot of courses on this
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: list that we have that don't do that and when
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: and I think this one might evoke, you know, like
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: you either love it or hate it. And I appreciate
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: that now. It's what's interesting. And you know, I'm not
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: going to pick this one as my next one. Is
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I had Sand Valley, you'd be at three golf courses
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: at the Sand Valley Golf Resort if you pick Sand Valley.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: And my point with San Valley would be it's the kaiser,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of.
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: Expansion beyond me.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: It's like we can do it outside abandon And.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: We're seeing now with with wild Spring Dunes, Rodeo Dunes,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: their project in Florida, that this is that Sand Valley
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: was the start of something else. And I think, but
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: that being said, maybe Sand Valley is just the epicenter
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: of this era in terms of of development, and what
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I find fascinating is at its core. You know, I
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: don't think I don't think that anybody would take Sand
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Valley and Mammoth Dunes are not the greatest golf course
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: is of this era, but they might end up being
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: some of the most influential, and I think that's interesting.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I guess this takes it to my next pick and
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I I'm gonna go here with Sweeten's Cove.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was high on my list as well.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: This is this is the first internet golf course. This
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: is the golf course that proved that a if you
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: build something interesting and people like it, that that will
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: break the mold and can be the model, the standalone model.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: It is a field of you know, people say Bandon
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Dunes is a field of dreams type situation. I'm sorry,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: it's sand On on an ocean. It is not South Pittsburgh, Tennessee.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Nine holes, which you know a long standing like you
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: can't there can't be a nine hole destination golf course.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: The people didn't believe you could have an eighteen hole
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: destination golf course. But this golf course was really pre
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: golf Internet. And what I mean by Internet is I
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: mean social media, you know, pre social media, and you
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: could say social media, maybe it's better as a social
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: media course pre social media and golf and like really golf,
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Instagram and Twitter explosion. This golf course was basically going
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: to close. It was not going to exist. They were
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: on the brink it. I remember having so many conversations
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: with Rob Collins as I started my business and he
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: was in the Sweetens Cove business about like how we
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: didn't know how long either of us were going to
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: make it, and the and the golf business. But this
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: is where, you know, the the world of the internet world,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: the social media world took a golf course and completely
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: changed its business trajectory and business model. And I think
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: it shows that if you build something interesting for public golf,
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: there is a great market there. And what happens is
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: that all the people, the influencers in the social media
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: accounts go and their followers go, and Sweeten's Cove became
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: this pilgrimage and really changed the way people thought about
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: the business of golf at a public level.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Matt thoughts about Sweeten's Cove.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't have a ton to add to that
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: I think Andy summed it up pretty well. But the
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: one thing I think about, uh with Sweeten's Cove is
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: how like everything is going against it. Essentially, it's in
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: a floodplane, it's not the best soils, it's in a
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: very odd location, and above all else, it somehow made
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: it through through all of these difficulties. And the reason
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: because of that is social media and people posting pictures
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: of it and people saying how amazing it was to
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: go there with their buddies and loop around this nine
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: hole course four or five six times in a day.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: And that's all it was. There's nothing else to it.
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: It's just go play golf and there's a shed up
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: at the top with a porta potty behind it if
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: you need to use the bathroom. So that's like my
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: biggest takeaway is how it's literally just a golf course
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: in a floodplain in this valley, and social media is
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: able to prop it up on this pedestal because it
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: is an interesting golf course and it got people to
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: go there and travel and be a successful business.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: I've said this before on the Friday Egg Pod, but
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: you know, and there were a handful of people that
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: went probably before I went, but I went. I think
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: they had three hundred Instagram followers at the time. And
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: I went on a Saturday morning in late May and
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: it was a beautiful day, beautiful like seventy five and sunny.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: And I got there, I wanted to say, at eight
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: am I was the only car. Maybe seven thirty, I
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: can't remember with the time change, I was the only
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: person there. I teed off before anybody was there, played alone.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: I got back. Patrick Boyd was sitting there. There's one
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: other group on the golf course. Nobody was there. This was,
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: you know, pre it really hitting the thing. It was
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: a failing business. Nobody played it. And I think if
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: you talk to the original people, they had a small
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: contingent of people that knew this golf course was provocative
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: and had substance that no other course in the area
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: really possessed of, Like it had a lot of this
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: modern this with these greens that required you to be
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: in certain places. And they had this legion of believers
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: that were very powerful, and they added to the experience
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: of people like me and others that showed up that
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: there was the Sweetens Cove mafia. Really is the way
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I would describe it that that helped push this golf
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: course into it because it is a thing of cultural relevance.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I think it's less so today than maybe, you know,
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: eight year or seven years ago. Seven years ago, it
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: was like have you been to Sweeten's Cove? People talked
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: about the pilgrimage to go to Sweeten's Cove, and I think,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: you know, from that standpoint, it will change the way
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: it has already and you know it is it incredible
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: story in terms of a golf course making it.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: But Sweeten's Cove also proved that that is a hard
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: way to do things, because eventually what they needed to
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: do was bring in some money and recently bring in
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: private equity to turn the property into something that feels
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: maybe a little bit more like a conventional destination golf resort,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: though still hanging on to a lot of the quirks
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: that it had originally. I think the spirit of the
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: place is probably still intact, but there's no doubt that,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: you know, the days of the of the shed and
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: the sense that you were out in the middle of
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: nowhere at this random, miraculous golf course. I think those
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: days have passed. And the reason they've passed is that
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: it's a tough it's a tough business model, right, The
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Little Course that Could is a tough business model.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: I think that there's a lot of different playbooks that
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: could have gone down at different paths. And you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I think like one of the challenges was, you know,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: one of the owners is one of the hottest architects
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: in the world at this point, Rob.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: Collins, he can't be there everything, can't be.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: An operator anymore.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: And I think there, you know, there's there's pathways to
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: where if somebody wanted to make that business work as
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: a single owner, totally feasible. And yeah, you might not
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: get to the fullest returns that private equities. You know
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: that that's what private equity is looking to do. How
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: do we maximize the returns? You know, And you could
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: have gone a lot of different directions, but at the
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: time I think they it went the right direction. And
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: I think people can criticize or anything, but it went
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: the right direction for the course at the moment in
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: time that the person that ran the course and needed
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: it to go.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I'm very very happy for the
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: fact that the that paid off. Rob Collins put everything
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: on the line and it worked. And that's massive credit
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: to him. I also wanted one last thing I want
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: to mention about Sweeten's Cove is I think it's probably
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: architecturally influential as well. Right, what we saw with Sweeten's
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: Cove was King Colin's absorbing influences not just from the
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: usual suspects, but also from Fazio and Gary Mark Strants
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: and Gary Player, right whom Rob Collins worked for earlier
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: in his career. You know, King and Collins were very
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: familiar with the trendy influences. They love Donald Ross, they
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: love Golden Age architecture, loves loves Pinehurst number two. They
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: think that Corn Crenshaw are the best in the world.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: So they have They had all of the usual influences,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: but they mixed them with something a little bit less fashionable,
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the kind of Fazio Play or Strants end to things,
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: and produced something really interesting out of that, strategically interesting
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: golf with features that just looked a little bit different.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: And I think that you see in a lot of
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: new courses, especially courses that are trying to capture some
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: attention visually, the influence of Sweeten's Cove. I think you
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: see a lot of architects trying to to kind of
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: do what King and Collins did at Sweeten's Cove, and
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: that's going to be that's going to be a trend
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: that I would expect to continue because part of what
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: made Sweeten's Cove pop is that the features were so bold.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: You saw a picture on Instagram and you're like, well,
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: I got to go there, right, that looks that looks incredible.
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: So I just wanted to note that we do have
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: to keep moving through the courses here. Why don't we
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Why don't we have the discussions? Yeah, go ahead.
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: The other thing is the idea of like pre selling
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: and selling out your tea times right like they're all day.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: They did some like very revolutionary I you know, concepts
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: with the experience, the lo Fi shed experience that became like,
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: you know, a cultural thing like they did some stuff
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: of like if we strip away everything and make it
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: just about the.
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: Golf, this can succeed.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Now private equity gets involved, be'st no more you know
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: in the long range plans. But the idea of some
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: of the business ideas of them actually being a real scrappy,
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: lean startup in golf leads to innovation and then you
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: see that with Landman later with this pre sale time
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: and they've had massive success selling out their t sheet.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good note. All right, Matt, what
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: is your next pick? I'm gonna go.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: So this is more so of a holistic kind of
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: golf course. But the one that I'll pin point that
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: I think is kind of the genesis of this is
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: the Cradle at Pinehurst. I think the Cradle was one
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: of the first most popular short courses or alternate styled
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: golf courses that aren't you know, two par three's, two
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: par fives and the rest par fours eighteen hole golf courses,
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: and a few predecessors to this would be banned preserve.
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: And then also even before that is the horse Course
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: at the Prairie Club in Nebraska, which was actually even
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: more revolutionary I think than some of these short courses
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: that have followed. But I mean, you look in the
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: last ten years and the amount of short courses that
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: are getting built at resorts and private golf clubs and
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: even just like there's short courses being built standalone, and
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: I think that's primarily because of the popularity of the Cradle,
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: and I did so I did mentioned Bandon Preserve and
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: the horse Course, which were before the Cradle. But I
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: think because Pinehurst is such a more accessible resort than
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: Bandon Dune's and the Prairie Club is the reason that
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: it had more of an impact. They built it, what
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: right after the US Open was held there, and it
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: just became this central hub of activity at the Pinehurst
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: resort and it kind of yalvinized the idea that short
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: courses are great for resort business models and getting more
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: rounds in a day that don't take four hours long,
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: and then also just unconventional styles of golf. And I
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: think it's absolutely exploded since the popularity of the Cradle.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that we didn't touch on at
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: length in that Sweeten's Cove discussion. Part of why Sweeten's
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: Cove is important is that it's a nine hole golf
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: course and it's really an experimentation with models other than
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: the regulation eighteen hole golf course. And I think this
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: is something that you really saw pop up in that
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: post recession era. What are the different forms of golf
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: that we can have other than this kind of old
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: model of this somewhat expensive to build and maintain regulation
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: eighteen hole golf course. Now, the promise of the short
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: course maybe hasn't really come to fruition in the twenty
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: twenties because we've seen them primarily pop up at resorts
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: as kind of an additional amenity. That's sort of how
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: these a lot of these courses function. They are the
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: place that you go in the afternoon after playing one
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: of the big courses earlier in the day. But certainly
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: it's been a very very important trend, especially in the
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: destination sector. It's almost like a requirement at this point
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: that you have one of these par three courses or unconventional,
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: non standard short courses at your facility as as something
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: for people to do when it's four o'clock in the
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: evening and you want to get in a quick fun round,
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: drink a couple of beers, and hit some golf shots.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: So's it's definitely been a key shift in these past
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: fifteen years. I'm glad you shouted out the horse Course
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: because they really were first, and then Band and Preserve
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: kind of confirmed the trend, and the Cradle is probably
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: the most broadly recognized example of it. It's the one
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: that most probably the most people have experienced.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: The last piece of the cradle that I don't think
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: should go untalked about is that it it was the
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: signal the risk. It was a big risk from the
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: resort to do something different. And they had done the
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Pinehers number two restoration, but that was just you know,
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: brushing up their you know, existing course. The cradle was
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: the signal and the start of the effective redesign of
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Pinehurst as a golf facility, which I would say, along
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: with Bandon and sand Valley now entering the ring, these
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: are the pillars of accessible high end golf in America,
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: and and the cradle would be the If the cradle failed,
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: I don't think we would have Pinehurst ten and now
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: Pinehurst eleven under construction. I don't know if Pinehurst four
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: gets redone. So you're also talking about a huge moment
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: in the redefining of a you know, of America's I
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: would probably say, the most recognized resort in America.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, all right, Now, before I move on to
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: my pick, I want to give a shout out to
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: Friday Egg Golf Club. Friday Golf Club is the sponsor
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: for this episode of Designing Golf, and of course it's
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: a project and a community that's close to all of
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: our hearts here.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: You could shout out the book too. It just got mine.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Andy's if you're watching us on video, Andy's holding up
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: our new book, which Frida Egg Golf New Friday Golf
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: Club members got a good deal on. That book contains
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: course profiles that we've been writing for the past few years.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: A lot of courses that have been important to our
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: lives in golf are featured in that book, so that
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: that has been an amenity that some members have really enjoyed.
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: And also, if you've been a member of Friday Golf
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Club since the beginning, then you've already seen a lot
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: of these course profiles show up in digital form as
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: part of your membership. So Friday Golf Club, go to
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: the fridagg dot com slash membership and see what it's
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: all about. We have a new disc Russian forum in
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Friday Golf Club that's been a lot of fun. Is
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: kind of bringing our community closer and closer together, So
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: come join us. It's really great. It's been a very
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: fun feature of our lives for the past few years here,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: and now that the holiday season is approaching, maybe it's
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: a good time to join yourself or to give the
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: gift of membership. All right, So my next pick is
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: going to be Old Barnwell, a recent pick designed by
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: Brian Schneider and Blake Conan in Aiken, South Carolina. A
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: lot of action in Aiken. Old Barnwell's not the only
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: achin course that has been significant. But the reason I'm
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: picking Old Barnwell here is that I think it is
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: part of an answer, maybe maybe a full fledged answer
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: to a big question that a lot of architects and
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: golfers have been asking for the past fifteen years. And
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: that question is is there a world beyond Corn Crenshaw,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Tom Doak, Gill Hans. Is there a place to go
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: beyond neo classical quote unquote minimalist. I'm putting minimalist in
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: very heavy scare quotes, but is there a place to
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: go beyond this kind of naturalist, neoclassical minimalist architecture that
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: has held sway at the top of the profession for
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: the past thirty years, basically since sand Hills. Now, of course,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: there has been a lot more going on in the
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: golf course development industry than just the work done by
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: the likes of Bill Krer, Tom Doak and Gil Hans.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: But if we're talking about what's really representative of the
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: cutting edge of golf architecture, that's really what we're talking about.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: If we're talking about the kind of architect that most
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: young architects aspire to be, we are talking about those firms.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: And so a lot of people have been wondering for
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: at least a decade maybe more, is it time to
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: move beyond that? Are we out of innovations? Is it
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: necessary to find a new style, a new way of
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: doing things? Is it part of the responsibility of the
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: golf architect to to continually push into new territory. And
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: I think that Old Barnwell is a really interesting answer
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: to that, because to me, the design represents a lot
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: of what's great about the previous couple of decades of
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: high end golf architecture from the likes of Bill Core
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: and Tom Duck. But it also shows some new way
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: forwards with this incorporation of Golden Age influences, but different
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Golden Age influences, These features that are just built stylized
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: in a different way, new ideas being incorporated into the
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: golf course. And so I think that's that's what Old
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Barnwell is doing. That's why it's one of the defining courses,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: and I think it's also just probably one of the
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: best courses that has been built in recent years, and
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: that's one reason why it'll, you know, endure as a
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: significant course. What are our thoughts on Old Barnwell, you.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Hit on a lot of what I was thinking about.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: It is this like conjunction of minimalists and built and
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 3: not trying to blend it into to nature so much.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: One thing that I really appreciate about it is some
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: of like the ditches they built on hillsides to catch
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: water and to keep valleys dry, like overtly building things
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: that are unnatural and more so utilitarian and just going
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: with all of the same I guess trends that golf
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: architecture was going for in the last twenty years.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: So those are just a.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: Few things that I admire most about that design.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: And any additional thoughts there.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I I added this to the sheet right
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: when we started recording. Do Brian Schneider and Blake Konick
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: get hired without Lanark?
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 4: Maybe not?
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: That would be one that I would I would say,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: is the real introduction of this style, which is a
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: fascinating course that flies under everybody's radar.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 4: It's outside Philly, and this is.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: Like the the birth of the Brian Schneider, you know,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: Blake style that that you're talking about at Old Barnwell.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: I would have had Tree Farm in this location, and
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: it would have been around the idea of the ache
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: and golf explosion and this previously rather sleepy, cool golf
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: town with Palmetto and Aichn and Sage valleys there near
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: augusta kind of a if you know, no place to
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: on the map golf golf locale for the ardent golf traveler.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: And I think like Tree Farm in Old Barnwell is
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: its own fascinating. We never get this type of situation.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: They're friends, I know, they just had their holiday matches
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: where they play each other. They're friends, friendly with each other,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: but inherent rivals in the sense that they had, you know,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: two golf courses being built in the same small town
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: at the same relatively the same time. I think Tree
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: Farm beat them to the punch on terms of like
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: we're doing this project in Aiken, but they were so
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: closely mirrored. I don't I think you could go either way,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: but just you know, I had it here as a
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: you know, I had those two courses here less So
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: for the architectural style, I think there's merit to.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 4: The the Brian Schneider, Blake Conant.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: Hey.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: This might be what you know, the next architecture wave
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: looks like, or one facet of the next architecture wave
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: looks like. But this is an area that's been put
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: on the map as a great golf area that otherwise
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: was a very you know, small group of people knowing
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: you have you know yet to come online. Twenty one Club,
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: New Holland Golf Club, the Jeff Warren project. So and
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: that's gonna be done by Brian Schneider and Blake, I
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: think as well. So I think it's I think I
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: don't have a problem with with going old Barnwell here
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: over tree Farm. But it's that's the other aspect to this,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: beyond what you said, is that the idea of this
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: small town in South Carolina that has become a must
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: visit area for golf golf golf nerds.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: All right, Andy, what's your next pick back to you?
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: All Right, I'm surprised it's still here. I'm taking a
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: hoopy match club. I think that a lot of these
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: courses on this list probably don't happen if it wasn't
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: for a Hoopye match club.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 4: Is Hoopie the greatest golf course built on this list?
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: Is it the golf course that has become kind of
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: the gold standard in terms of models.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 4: Atmosphere?
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: It introduced a whole new way to experience a destination
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: golf club with their all inclusive day rate. Most importantly,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: Michael Walrath what he developed this golf course was young,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: a young person who had had a lot of success
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: in life, and I think he brought a level we
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: talk about like how golf has become so cool in
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: pop culture. I think he brought a level of it's
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: really cool if you've got hundreds of, if not billions
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: of dollars to own a golf course. And people saw
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: how how Michael Wallrath has has become, you know, within
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: golf circles. Most people probably don't know Michael Wallrath, but
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: within golf circles, Michael ware Wrath is you know, golf
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: Royalty because he built this really cool place.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: And I think.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: That's led to a lot of more golf courses being
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: built by wealthy people that look at this as hey,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: you know, I have a friend Colin Shean. He talks
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: about he's behind a lot, He's developed a lot of
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: these great golf courses. He talks about how you could
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: spend hundreds of millions of dollars and be a minority
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: sports sports owner, sports franchise owner, and if the team sucks,
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: people hate you, or be the majority owner and people
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: hate you. Or you can spend you know, one hundred
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: million dollars and build one of the greatest golf courses
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: in the world and everybody will love you. And I
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: think that a Hoopie has had just a massive cultural
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: impact on Destination Private golf club, which has been the
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: defining trend of this era. It is it is a
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: place that a lot of people talk about, if we
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 2: could build this could be like a hoopie when you're
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: talking about building a new place. So I think a
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Hoopie has to be on this list for many, many reasons.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: And I know people built destination Private golf before a hoopie,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: but a Hoopie had a special sauce that made this
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: appear appear very, very, very appealing to a lot of
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: wealthy people who have since built Destination private golf.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting with the history of the destination private
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: golf club that really the the you know, originating modern
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: example is sand Hills Golf Club, right, and sand Hills
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: Golf Club is the is the origin point for so
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: many different trends in modern golf architecture. But that too,
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: that the idea is that it's a destination private club,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: and yet a hoopie is the one that everybody talks
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: about now when they're building a new destination private club.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: After a hoopie, we saw a wave of these start
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: being built and and so I think there's there are
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: a number of reasons for that. There are some economic
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: trends that underlie this incoming inequality is probably probably a
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: big deal here. The fact that there there are people
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: who can build these courses and buy these memberships and
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: are looking for these kinds of experiences and have the
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: money to do it. That's that's a huge factor here.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: But also it's just it's one of the surest ways
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: to make a golf course successful these days. If you're
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: committed to creating a golf course that is going to
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: survive and be successful, then a hoopye is sort of
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: the example to follow, and that that's a major major
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: change of these past fifteen years that we've been talking about.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Mad any additional thoughts There.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: Something I just thought of when Andy was kind of
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: talking about this special sauce at a hoopie. This is
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: probably pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: I think their logo also has had an influence on
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: a lot of golf courses that followed, as it's kind
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: of mysterious, it has no relationship to golf whatsoever. It's
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 3: an onion if you've never seen it. Their logo is
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: like a little yellow onion, and I think I think
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: there's been an influence in logo design of trying to
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: create really unique, eye catching logos that make people question, hey,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: what is that on your shirt?
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: There? What's that on your hat?
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: And it's sort of driven this kind of I guess
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: notion that having a great logo attached to your golf
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: course is not necessarily essential, but it's a great way
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: to drive a lot more revenue in merchandise sales and whatnot.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: So that's just a little note that I think is
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 3: pretty funny and potentially, Like I mean, there's probably other
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: examples of really unique, cool logos like this, But when
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: I think back of courses in this era, it feels
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: like a Whoopie is kind of one that that stands
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: out for sure.
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe MacArthur is kind of a significant one there too. Yes,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: I mean there's recognition clouds and it has become kind
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: of an essential for a lot of these clubs. They
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into this now that may
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: not have been put into the same thing before. All right,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: let's go to Matt. What's your next pick here?
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go with another Tom dop design in
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: the Loop at Forest Dunes. I guess my main reason
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: for picking this is number one. I think it's a
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: brilliant design if you're unfamiliar with it. It is a
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: fully reversible golf course. So there's eighteen greens and you
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: can play into these greens from two different directions, So
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: essentially you have thirty six different unique golf holes across
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: the footprint of one eighteen whole golf course. And I
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: think I know that the course at Sylvie's Valley Ranch,
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: I believe kind of claims being one of the first
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: reversible golf courses. Obviously, the old course at Saint Andrew's
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 3: is famous for having this same style but I feel
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: like the loop is the first fully realized example of
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: a reversible golf course. It's truly eighteen holes, eighteen greens
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: that are reversible and you can play from two different ways,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: and I just think that it opens up this kind
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: of can of worms for different concepts, like picking a
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: concept for a golf course and going all in one
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: percent and kind of exploring all different ways of doing that.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: And I'm just going to be curious to see how
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: other concepts like this formulate afterwards. Is there other styles
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: of reversibility or multiple greens, multiple roots, similar to like
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: the horse course at Prairie Club where it's to choose
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 3: your own adventure. It's essentially a field with golf holes
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: and you can pick where you want to go. So
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: I think it's really influential in that point of view.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: And then also it helps out a lot specifically at
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 3: that resort, the goal was to get people to stay
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: on their property in their beds for more than just
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: one or two nights. They wanted people to stay for
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: longer than that, and this was sort of Tom Dokes's
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: answer to that question is, Oh, if you can only
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: play the reversible golf course one direction each day.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: It forces people to.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: Come here and stay and experience the design in both directions.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: So I think it was revolutionary in that sense of
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: driving more revenue to the resort as well.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: I'd love to see the loop become more influential than
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: I think it has been strangely for the past several years. Yes,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: we've seen people attempt various different iterations of a reversible
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: golf course, but it's still kind of relatively rare. And
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: one reason I like it so much is that there
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: is such an efficiency of maintenance and footprint with a
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: reversible course. You really get two courses in one. And
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: so I think, as we're thinking about in this new,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe slightly scary era of the world's environment
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: that we're entering into, if you can have a course
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: that is efficient like that, then that's got to be
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: appealing and it would be great to see more innovation
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: on this front. But definitely the loop is the result
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: of Tom Doak thinking through this question that I was
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: talking about when we were discussing Old barnwell, where can
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: golf architecture go next? But at the same time basing
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: that on the oldest source possible, which is the old
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: course at Saint Andrew's right. We've seen Tom Doak really
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: build three different courses in this twenty ten to twenty
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: twenty five period that are simultaneously something that something very
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: new and based on the old course in Old MacDonald,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: The Loop and the Lido. These three courses take such
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: inspiration from the old course, oftentimes direct template style inspiration
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: from the old course, and yet all of them feel fresh,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: like they're introducing new ideas into the bloodstream of modern
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: golf architecture. And so it just shows how kind of
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: the oldest influence can still produce something something new.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: I am a huge, huge fan of the Loop.
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 4: It's one of my favorite modern designs.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's had as much influence as it
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: should have had to date. I think, like if you
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: said purely concept based, this would jump to the top
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: of my list, but I think it's hamstrung by its
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: location right now and it's type of golf. I think
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: if this was a golf course that was close to
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: a metro area and open accessible, you know, accessible to
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: the public like it is now. If it was close
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: to a metro area, people would rave about this course
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: being as ingenious as any course in the world. But
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: I think it is a you know, it's in an
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: area the Midwest with a lot of golf resorts, and
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: what happens is people go try different resorts. They go
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: to Sand Valley, they go to Forest Dunes, they go
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: to Lasnia, they go to Boyne, they go to these
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: different they go to Arcadia, and what happens is people
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: do not play this with as much regularity to under
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: the amount of regularity they need to to understand the sheer.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 4: Brilliance of it.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: And I think this is my where I didn't have.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: I would say it's on in terms of just pure
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: design as influential and it, but in its current application
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: it doesn't get there for me because I don't think.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 4: I think if this had been a.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: Private country club that redesigned this course, this course would
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: be lauded as more so, many more courses have gone
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: reversible because of this golf course if it was daily fee, similarly,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: but because it's a resort, very remote resort.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 4: It hasn't.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: It hasn't broken through into cultural society, into the cultural
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: golf society as brilliance. When I would say that, if
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: you said just sheer design, it might be number one
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: for me.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 4: In this period of time.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's give it some time, because.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: Because it's twenty forty the year is twenty forty nine, right.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: These things work in funny ways, you know. Sometimes sometimes
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 1: golf courses, just like any other kind of cultural product,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: have their day, and sometimes that day comes comes a
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: little bit later than you expect. But I think you're
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: right on that that it's it's almost the opposite of
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: Mammoth Dunes, where it's an extremely intricate, worthy golf course
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: that is just kind of in the wrong place and
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: the wrong kind of resort right now for as many
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: people to appreciate it as possible, and that that is
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: a shame because it is clearly brilliant. So I'm going
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: to kind of it's my pick. Now, we've picked eight courses,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna sort of send me punt a
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: little bit, or at least ask for some assistance because
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: we've got two more spaces on this list. And I
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: think that there are a couple of contingents that at
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: this point are going to be mad at us. One
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: is anybody who lives outside of the US, So you know,
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: your Australians, your Canadians. Yeah, well, we started with We
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 1: started with Terry. Ye'll, maybe that'll please, maybe that'll placate
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: some people, but it's been all American courses since then.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: Cabot Links is just kind of sitting there. Obviously an
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: important course in the sense that it launched the Cabot
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: brand and it and it again. It likes Sand Valley.
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: It was sort of a proof of concept, but this
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: time beyond the Dream Golf brand, that this kind of
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: thing could work, not outside of Dream Golf, because Mike
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: Kiser is obviously an important investor in in Cabot Links initially,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: but it proved that that other, you know, outside of
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: the Kaiser family, there were developers who could pursue this
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: type of model, and since then Cabot has become extremely important.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: Now another contingent who might be rightfully mad at us
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: at this point is the muni golf lovers. I don't
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: believe we have any municipal golf courses on our list yet.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: And a really important set of trends in the past
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: fifteen years has been experimentation and innovation, new kinds of stuff,
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: surprising amount of development at certain municipal golf courses. So
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: the ones that come to mind immediately from the period
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: that we're talking about. For me are Winter Park, which
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: I would categorize as a redesign, even though they maintained
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: the pre existing routing, they turned that into a different
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: golf course. Yeah, Keith reb and Riley Johns did. They
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: turned it into a new golf course through what they did,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: and it was a very very affordable type of renovation
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: that I wish we saw more of. So certainly that
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: one is on the list for me and maybe hasn't
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: been as influential as it should have been. The other
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: municipal candidate I have in mind would be the Park,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: which is a completely different way of approaching a municipal renovation,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: where you is a great deal of money to do
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: something very impressive for the community. You charge a healthy
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: rate for out of towners, but provide affordable services to
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: the people who live around the course, and in the
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: bargain you get a terrific gill Hants golf course. So
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: those are some candidates there. We have two slots left.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: What do you guys think? Where do you think we
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: go with this?
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean I had the Park on my list,
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 3: and I also was like really considering Winter Park because
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: I think Winter Park was sort of a genesis for
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: taking a golf course that is close to a population
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: center that is vastly underutilized and I guess not interesting
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: in very many ways. And we're starting to see it
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: more like the park was a golf course that was
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: just sitting there. It was abandoned. It wasn't necessarily a
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: great golf golf course in the town. But I think
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 3: Winner Park set this precedent of, oh, if you have
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: a golf course, you can do a relatively affordable renovation,
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: have really smart golf course architecture, and make it a
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: really interesting, engaging golf course that becomes this almost invaluable
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: community asset. Another course that has recently, like literally just
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: opened that did this exact same thing as Miami Lakes
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 3: in Florida. It was a golf course that was essentially
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: sitting in a swamp, had little to no interest. And
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: now Bruce Heppner comes in, builds some interesting greens, some
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: smart bunkering. And now I haven't been back yet, but
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: I was there during construction and by all means what
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 3: I saw it seems like it's going to be a
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 3: very very interesting golf course. So that's what I think.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: Winter Park did so well is sort of show all
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: these courses that have followed that you can take these
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 3: underutilized golf sites and turn them into something that's really
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: interesting and then begins to start to attract people from
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: outside of that community or outside of that city.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd throw Golden Gate Park into the mix as
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 2: something that's followed this.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: I think the.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: Story of Winter Park and what followed, even though some
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: end up being really high priced projects, but the idea
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: that golf architecture good golf architecture doesn't have to be
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: more expensive and doesn't have to be inaccessible to the public,
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: that I think is a very important aspect of this.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: And I think I think Winter Park probably deserves to
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: be there because it was the trailblazer.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, so that's our number nine. Winter Park. I think
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: it richly deserves and that story really blew up too.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: That story had an effect on people, and the Miami
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: Lakes project actually was very much inspired by Winter Park.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 1: The owners there looked at Winter Park and said, hey,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: why can't we do this.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: I think the Golf Channel coverage of it was huge
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: in Winter Park success.
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 4: They were regularly there.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: I know some of the producers at Golf Channel or
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 2: former producers.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 4: Live on the golf course.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: Matchinello was there regularly, and I think that it led to,
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: you know, they and the PGA Show. Honestly, the PGA
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: Show being there every year. The Winter Park was the
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: hub starting in like twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen of the
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: PGA shows where everybody played golf around there.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it's so it's an influential project and
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: at the same time something that hasn't been fully replicated yet,
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: and that's there are a lot of reasons for that.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: But I guess Park Golden Gate Park is a good example. Yes, absolutely,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: I think Golden Gate Park maybe gets pretty it gets
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: pretty close, and and Miami Lakes has has a lot
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: of a lot of those those features as well in it.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: But uh yeah, I mean, I guess I was you know,
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: I was hoping for an explosion of these kinds of
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: projects in the wake of Winter Park. We haven't seen
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: an explosion. We've seen we've seen a trickle rather than
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: a flood. But uh but that's that's slotting in at
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: number nine. Now for number ten, I'm going to open
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: this up to discussion. I've already mentioned Cabot links as
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: a possibility. What are the others that are in the
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: mix for you guys and the ones that don't get
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: that number ten spot we can consider honorable mentions. So Andy,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 1: why don't you go ahead and give us what the
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: rest of what is? Uh? What is rattling around in
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: your head?
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: For these I already put sand Valley for more reasons.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: I also have Rodeo Dunes. I think the the closeness
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: of that site to to Denver and the Denver Airport
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: is going to really I that thing is going to
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: be a popular or popular.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: Place U The twenty golf course though.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, it is, That's true. I just I
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: put it down technically they.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: Are preview loop open in twenty twenty five.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: But for other ones that I have on my list,
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 2: I think I think Brambles is a going to be
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: a massively influential golf design for any golf course in
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: the western half of the United States in terms of
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 2: its use of Zosia grass that even though the joyste
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: of grass wasn't really recommended to use, and they dealt
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: with the the the challenge of growing it in, but
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: they've created something that provides a supreme playing service without
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of water, which is going to be you know,
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: kind of the name of the game in water restricted
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: and what in places with water issues, So brambles would
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: be in my consideration.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 4: I think.
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: I would say that the golf course I think is
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: the best American golf course that I have seen in
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 2: the last fifteen years is probably Childress Hall. So I
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 2: would put this in the discussion if we're talking about
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: twenty forty nine. I think I said this on fried
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: Egg with all the ranking outrage, that's the lowest it's
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: going to be. So I think that deserves some sort of.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 4: Know highlight.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen every golf course built in the last
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: fifteen sixteen years, but I've seen most, so that would
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: be my my kind of ones that are in the running.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: I also think like Medina three has a chance in
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: terms of the renovation. I like it more than some
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: of the other kind of modern renovations. And here you know,
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: and I think that one has a chance of like
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: this is what we do with all these big, outdated
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: championship golf courses.
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: All right, Matt, any any others to throw in the mix?
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 3: Interesting? Early enough, I had all three of those kind
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 3: of on on my list left Media number three Rambles
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 3: and then also Childress Hall. I wanted to hit on because,
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: like Andy said, I think Childress Hall is probably the
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 3: best golf course that I've seen built in the last
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 3: fIF teen years, and it feels like by a wide margin.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: I was really I really like the idea of Madna
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: number three because it feels like it's almost the first
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 3: course to take a very historically significant golf course in
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 3: the grand scheme of things. And it's not a holistic,
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: like complete redesign, but they took away like some of
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: the most famous holes to seventeenth kind of became this
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 3: Darling part three over the water and they completely eliminated it.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: They changed the routing and it's essentially a new golf
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: course from what was there. So it'll be really really
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: interesting to see if other big name clubs go this direction,
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 3: and it almost feels like Medna number three could be
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: could be the trailblazer for that type of change in
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: the future.
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: And it's an OCM golf course. I think OCM are
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: going to be one of the most prominent firms of
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: the next twenty years, very likely, and.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: So they have a lot of projects right now.
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and they're they're they're going to continue to
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: get projects because they're very good at what they do,
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: and they also have Jeff Ogilvie on their side, and
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: and Jeff is is just going to be one of
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: those one of those people who's able to get jobs
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 1: because he's so thoughtful and of course he has he
• 1:31:24
  Speaker 1: has his profile as as a professional golfer. A couple
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: I'd like to uh to shout out would be I
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: think Seven Mile Beach has a chance of being a
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: very significant golf course from this era, but it's very
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: very new, so it's so it's hard to say exactly
• 1:31:39
  Speaker 1: what its profile is going to be. It's basically just
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: kind of tentatively opening up right now out in Tasmania,
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: but it's right next to the Hobart International Airport on
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: an amazing piece of land Mike Clayton and Mike Devreeese
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: design that looks like it's going to really impress people.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: Ocum's project at Peninsula Kingswood was a very big deal
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: in transfer forming that golf course, adding something to one
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: of the world's great golf regions in the Melbourne sand Belt,
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: and also setting Ocum on the path that they're on now.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 4: One other thing with that.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: Fascinating case study of sell your really valuable land by
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: new land that might be better for golf, and the
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: idea of cash like you you don't you're not just
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: selling off like the Frail family.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 4: And taking away. You're selling off.
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: And maybe upgrading the entire club like which is I thought,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: I think that is a pretty interesting proposition for some
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: of these some of these clubs that sit on really
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 2: valuable land. We've seen it before. This happened the Hermitage
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 2: Club in Richmond. The original the you know course was
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: the Belmont was Belmont, which got redesigned by or renovated
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: by Davis Love's group, the you know, tilling Hass course
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: in Henrico County. But they the story of that course
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 2: was they effectively sold their original course and bought land
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: further outside because they wanted thirty six holes like expansion.
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: So it used to be something that happened, you know.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: San Francisco had this happen with so many courses at
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: Old CITYO was basically four different clubs or really yeah,
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 2: so I think this is this is something that's happened
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 2: over time. We haven't really seen it happen in America.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: But it's an interesting kind of proposition where you could
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: you know, and I don't know if the economic how
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: the economics would work on some of these, but you know,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: you talk about like you know, the ultimate one would
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: be you know, and they would never do it because
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: it's on such a divine golf land, but like you know,
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: the the appraisal value of LACC if they sold and
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 2: what they could build, you know, turn it wouldn't be
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: anywhere near where it is now and they would never
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: do it. But like that type of idea of like
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: you always hear how valuable that real estate is, well,
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: can we take it build something you know, a little
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: bit further away, but have it be maybe better because
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 2: we you know.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's an interesting model.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. So Peninsula Kings would
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: definitely in the mix for me. The Rio Olympic golf course,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: uh is one that was this really interesting and definitely
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: significant to Gil Hanson's career.
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: I think that one too, if they if it, if
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: it hadn't been, if it doesn't have just just like
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 2: this dark cloud of like what's really happening there hanging
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 2: over it. I think this one, like if they had
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 2: if they had created tournaments that continued to go back. Yes,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: but it's just this though it had this thing and
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: we don't really hear about it ever because it had
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: such a great debut in that in that Olympics, but
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: there's no This is where golf in a way as
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: a professional sport has failed the global game, is that
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: its use has not you know, met up with you know, yeah,
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: it's purpose.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: It's it's it would be such a wonderful regular tournament course,
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: but it just hasn't become that. So very unfortunate. Yeah.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: A couple others to mention would be Scottsdale National, a
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: pretty stunning effort by Jackson con Design that takes desert
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: golf architecture in what feels like a new direction. And
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: then I've heard great things about Saint Patrick's Lynx, another
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: Tom Doak course, but that's one that's extremely highly rated
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: and will probably be regarded as, if not one of
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: the defining courses of the era, definitely one of the
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: best courses of the era. And then I should mention
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: Cape Wickham as well along those those lines. That's also
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: an extremely highly rated but fairly remote golf course. All right,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: So those are the honorable mentions. What do you guys
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: think goes in number ten? I'm Cabot Links is a possibility.
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: You guys both mentioned Brambles and Childress Hall and Madna
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 1: number three. How does it feel at this point?
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 4: I'll let Matt vote first. I had to pick first.
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of like my Dina number three because
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 3: it feels like an outlier from all the other ones
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 3: we picked. I could very easily just go with Childres
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 3: because of how incredible the golf course is. But I
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 3: think we already kind of selected one in that vein
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 3: with Terry Dy. So my vote would be MDNA number three,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 3: and it's kind of redesigning a historically significant golf course.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have We don't really have one of
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: those kind of complete overhauls of a historically significant golf
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: course on our list. I mean Winter Park was a renovation, obviously,
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: but Medina was on a completely different scale. How does
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: how does that strike you? Andy?
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 4: That works for me?
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: Sorry, Canada, I think you know I I yeah, I
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 2: do think Tree Farm deserves deserves thought because I think
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: it's one of the more unique how I built this
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: golf course thing in the sense of we picked a
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: lot of courses that were built by very wealthy people.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: Or you know Zach Blair. Yeah he plays on the
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: PGA Tour, but he the way in which he built
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: the golf course completely revolutionary.
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: M okay and yeah, so we think maybe maybe the
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: Tree Farm should replace Old Barnwell or else all I
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 1: mean you put a mention of it in there.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 2: I just think the Tree Farm being grossly overlooked because
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: it was the first and Aiken and the manner in
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: which it was built is unlike any other golf course
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 2: in that we have talked about today and the way
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 2: the course was financed, the way you know it. It
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: was the public version of it, and I know that
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 2: like drawed, iire of people. You know, it bothers people
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: the way that it went down. But guess what he
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: made everything like transparent from this get go. And ideas change.
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 2: They have to change, they have to evolve to get
• 1:38:33
  Speaker 2: things done. You know, my original idea for Friday Golf
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: is not what it is today. Wasn't It didn't follow
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: the exact path that I thought it would follow. But
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: I think that that project, like and I've been on
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: the record, I like Old barn Wall as a course
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 2: more but I think that project is like so so
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 2: unique in the way it was built, and I think
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 2: it's been overlooked, honestly.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: Probably because of its location and because Old Barnwell has,
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: for whatever combination of reasons, kind of caught the hype train.
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: I think for good reasons. I'm not saying the hype
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: is unjustified. I think it's an absolutely terrific and kind
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: of pathbreaking work of golf course architecture, but it's it
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: has loomed a bit large in the discourse about Achen,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: and maybe the tree Farm will will eventually have its
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: day here, all right. So that is basically the list
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: we have Terry Edie, the Lido, Mammoth Dunes, Sweeten's Cove,
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: the Cradle at Pinehurst, Old Barnwell Slashed, the Tree Farm,
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 1: the Hoopy Match Club, the Loop Winter Park, and Medina
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: number three. I think that's a really good list. I
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: think that's a that's a pretty strong ten defining courses
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: of the past fifteen years. Thank you guys for joining
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: me for this exercise. This was really fun and appreciate
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: your time and your thought that you put into this.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 4: Thanks Garrett.
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: Thanks This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam.
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you Will. If you've been enjoying Designing Golf, then
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: go leave us a review in iTunes or wherever it
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 1: is that you're listening to us, Not for really any
• 1:40:31
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• 1:40:34
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• 1:40:38
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• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: then leave a rating and review. Thank you for listening.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: Have a wonderful holiday. We'll be back on I think
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: it's going to be January eighth, but we're taking this
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: holiday season off, so a couple of blank weeks here
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: and then we're gonna start up with a Vengeance in
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: the new year. So again, thanks for listening. We'll see
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 1: you next year. Twenty twenty six