Latest / The Bechdel Cast / Tangled

Transcript

Tangled · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: changing it with the beck Del Cast. Oh, Jamie, let
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: down your hair. Wow, Caitlin, my hair is so unhealthy. Okay, Um,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: we're gonna get about. Do you need to travel from
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: my shoulders to my scalp because that's about as far
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: as we're gonna get at this point in time. Oh great,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: well then yeah, absolutely no problem. It will hurt a lot,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: But like Rapunzel, I'm extremely self sacrificing for no reason,
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: So sure it hurt me. Oh do you actually we
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: just met? But should I like die for you? You know? Um,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: welcome to the Bechdel Cast. We both have pretty short hair,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: not like short, we're both we're both medium right now.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Mine used to be much shorter. I used to be
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: the baldest woman in charge and then and now I
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: would say, we're we're about right now. It's a really
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: equal leadership. We're both kind of medium right now, which
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: is which I think is a fair and just way
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: to rule a podcast. I think so I love parody
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: equality I wish, I wish I could do. I get
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: nervous about having a shorter haircut because I have a
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: weird head shape and I have a lump on top
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: of my head, and I just don't like calling too
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: much attention to my head. Don't say those things about
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: my friend Jamie. Look, I've I've known her for a
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: long time, and she has a lump on her head
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and I don't have the confidence to embrace it at
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: this point in my life. Someday I'm gonna be calling
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: attention to this damn lump, because that's where all the
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: good ships happening, right in that little golf ball on
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: top of my head. Oh boy, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: and this is our show where we examine movies through
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist lens, using, of course, the Bechdel test
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: simply as a jumping off point. Oh for sure, that
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Bechdel test. Let me tell you about it, because there's
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: some things about it, but you're not going to expect
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Just kidding. If you listen to the show, um, you
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: know what it is. Uh, we use it as a
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: jumping off point for discussion. It is a media metric
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: originally created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Bechdel Wallace Test. Many versions of this test. Our version
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: is this, are there two characters with names of a
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: marginalized gender who talked to each other about something other
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: than a man for two lines of dialogue? And very
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: often it doesn't happen very often, you know, in this
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: day and age and this economy, very often it does.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Either way, we're gonna talk about it for about two
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: seconds in one and a half hours, so don't worry
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: about it for now. Um, and today we are covering
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: on the main feed. I think this is what we've
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: been kind of making a concerted effort as of late
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: to uh knock out some of our top requests that
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: have literally been on our request list for at this
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: point more than half a decade, because look, enough is enough.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: We understand there are certain films, Flims, pieces of cinema
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: that you pieces of cinema no, no, that go with it.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Commit Oh my god, I just in my head heard
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: a shattering glass sound and I'm just like you can
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: interpret that as my brain breaking, or you could interpret
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: it as me punging through the glass ceiling coming up
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: with a new incredible phrase. Pieces of cinema, I choose
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: the ladder. Wait, what happens at the end of What
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: does he say at the end of Saw? And then
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: he slams the door? He says, game over, slam. That's
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: what's happening in my head. Twenty four seven. Anytime I
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: encounter something that is confusing to me, and I just
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: take a nap and I'm kidding and I educate myself.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: I learned, Okay, wow, okay, no no no, no, no
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: no no. Of course not of course, not doing really
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: weird lately, but that doesn't mean I'm not ready to
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: have some discorse about the movie Tangled with my friend Caitlin.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: This movie has been on our list forever, Yes, it has.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Our listeners want this episode, and we decided, you know what,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: it's time. It's time, and so that's what we're covering today.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Two thousand ten Disney animated film starring I didn't really
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: I knew it was Mandy Moore because I was a
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: childhood fan of Mandy Moore. I know I've talked about
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: this on the show before. I haven't had a Haunted
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Mandy Moore Poster. I didn't know Zachary Levi was in
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: this movie, which is interesting to me because he's handsome.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: That he is, and that's all I have to say.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: And also Paul of Tompkins shout out to Pop Tompkins. Yeah,
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: there's some fun voice acting in this movie. Zachary Levi
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Mr Shazam himself. I do confuse them of Zachary Quinto
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: sometimes due to their both being named Zachary and being handsome.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: But this is Zachary. This is Shazam Zachary, not star
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Trek Zachary. Correct. And that is how we distinguish them.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: That is, that is famously how we do that. There's
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Sam and Their Spots podcast, and there there are two
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: kinds of Zachary's Shazam and spak Sprouse. There's three kinds
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: of Zachary's. Oh right, Oh, you don't know the Sprouse
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: is off the tip. No wait, oh my god, I
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: got it wrong. It's Dylan. I was thinking of his
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: character zach from This Week Life of Zach and Cody.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, Glass shattering game over slam Well, Zachary Zachary. Listeners,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: please let us know which of the two Zachary options
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: you are. Are you a Spock or Chosam. We're back
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: down to two. Sprouse is not an option because that
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: was a fictional character. I'm more spok, I think, Oh
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I am definitely more of a Spok than a Chosam. Yeah,
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: because you didn't like Sham, as we talked about recently
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: on the Matreon. Um, I really broke some young man's
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: heart that day. Sorry sir. Anyway, Okay, Jamie, what is
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: your your relationship with Tangled? Oh my gosh, Um, I
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: did not see this movie when I came out. I
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: was in high school and I was like, I'm too
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: old for this. I don't need I don't need to
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: go see Tangled. You. So I did not see it
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: when it originally came out. I think I saw it
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: a couple of years later. My vague memory that is
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: completely useless and irrelevant about seeing this movie was I
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: saw it on DVD at a woman's house where I
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: was modeling T shirts for her question Mark. At some
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: point in college, I made money, um, in a lot
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: of shady ways. In college. I sold my blood and
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: I did that too. I mean, it's kind of a
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: time honored tradition in the grand uh in the grand
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: tradition of late capitalism. Of course, we both sold our blood.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: And I also would do these like weird modeling gigs
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: where I'm pretty sure you're getting super ripped off that
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: you would wear like these ugly ass T shirts that
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: would say, like, you know, like corny early tens T
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: shirts that would be like, I'm trying to think, like
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: good morning is an oxy moron something like that. Kind
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: of I kind of like those better, I like Auntie
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: T shirts are fine with me, but this was like
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: sassy millennial like like bacon humor. It was bacon humor,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: ultimately embarrassing. I hope they don't exist on the internet anymore.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: But anyways, this random woman was doing my makeup at
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: her house and we watched Tangled, and then I'm pretty
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: sure I got my got my image exploited, I see,
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: But I liked it. And then I've and I've and
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I've watched it a couple of times since. I think
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: it's like I've never thought very hard about it. But
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I knew a little bit about the production around this movie,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm excited to talk about it because it feels
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: like a very particular moment in time for Princess Energy.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: So sure, what's your history. I don't think I saw
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: this in theaters, but I do remember seeing it probably
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: within a year of it coming out. I was living
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: in Boston at the time. Brave Me too, and we oh,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: no way, I was still at home. Oh jeez, well,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I was living in Boston. I was not, um, a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: supermodel like you were. Yeah. Yeah, people were datat pictures
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: of me in ugly shirts on their point and shoots.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: So it sounds to me like you were doing some
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: like runway high fashion runway modeling. It was really sexy
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: what I was doing, for sure. Um No, I was
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: just kind of chilling in Boston. Probably saw this with
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: my friend j T. I remember liking it, but not
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: enough to be like, oh, this is gonna be in
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: my rotation kind of thing. So I didn't watch it
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: again until I want to say twenty nineteen, maybe sometime
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: around then. I went to a friends giving celebration at
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: a friend of the pod Sammy Junio's house, Love It,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and we decided that we were going to watch a
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: bunch of movies and that those movies could only start
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: with the letter T. So we watched three T movies,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: the first one of course, being Titanic, the second one
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: being Terminator too, and the third one being Tangled. So
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: I saw it again and I was like, oh, this movie,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: this is cute, this is this is better than I remember.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: I like this movie. But then again, I didn't see
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: it again until prepping for this episode, so rewatching it,
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: especially through like the Bechtel cast lens Um, was an
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: interesting journey. I feel like there's there's a lot to discuss. Yeah,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: this movie really is it. It's it's messing with you.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: And I think when the first, like maybe one or
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: two times I saw it, it didn't really click for
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: me because it is for its faults, which we will
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: be discussing. I think it's a really fun movie. It's
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: like a good, engaging Disney movie that doesn't feel like
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: most other Disney movies. But not because it's you know,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: amazing and progressive. It's just kind of different. It's actually
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: I like it. I like the chameleon Pascal. That was
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: the chameleon from the Minions test, wasn't it? It was
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: so listen. Famously, we all Jamie and I both took
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: a which Minion are you test? On your birthday of course,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: I swear to god. I texted that damn quiz to
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: every person I've ever met and was like, I need
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: to know what many you are right now, because like,
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: is this friendship gonna sustain or not? Let's share our results?
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Shall we mine? Sucks? Okay, yeah, Caitlin, now you're awesome.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Minions quiz results. I got Stewart, Is that right? I
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: don't even remember now Stewart Sieball the rock Star. I'm
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: classic me, you know, classic Caitlin. A bunch of people
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: in my life got Kevin's, which is like, okay, that's
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: if we're getting we're pulling a Kevin or a Stewart
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: result friend for life. Meanwhile, I pulled Grow. I got Grow.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I don't see it if if it makes you feel
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: any better, thank you so much. I don't know how
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I got Grow, but it lowered my self esteem immeasurably.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I can't and on your birthday. It happened to me
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: on my birthday while we got the Minion's menu at
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: eye Hoop, which was gross disappointing. Oh my god. Okay,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: last thing before we jump to the discourse the Minions.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: First of all, I don't think I hop as one
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: of ours, our sponsors. Listeners are randomly generated, and so
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: we don't really know, but hopefully not. I hop because
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: the Minions menu, we were so looking forward to it.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Caitlin brilliantly decided we should go on my birthday. And
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: then we get there and what is the menu. It's
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: just existing menu items with Minions characters. Yeah, like pancakes,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: but with yellow and blue sprinkles. Literally, minion come. Sorry,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: but like that was that was the consistency. It was gross.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Are you suggesting that minions come, yes, yellow and blue sprinkles? Okay? No, no, no, no,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: I was I was talking about the yellow gou. Oh,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: the yellow okay, So there was banana flavored goo and
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: then sprinkles on top of that. Yeah, the goo was cold,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: So I do think that minions come cold, yellow banana goo. Okay,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: here's a thing not to derail this conversation even further,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: but similar to the does beetle juice come wet or
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: dry scabs? You're in the camp of minions, come that
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: cold banana flavored goo. I'm in the camp of minions,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: come yellow and blue sprinkles. See that's a fun kind
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: of changing of the narrative because with beetle juice. As
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: we're going to be debating come October, as we do
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: every year. I always say he comes dry scabs sounds
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: like card shuffling. You always say he comes wet scabs
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: like a laser jet printer. And in this case, I'm
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: team wet and your team dry exactly. Wow. What we
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: know for sure is that Minions, uh, they do not
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: sexually reproduce, so all of their sex is strictly for pleasure,
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: and I celebrate that, which I think is um kind
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: of amazing and progressive Minions progressive text. Okay, transitioning into
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: our discussion around Tangled. So we both have uh light
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: you know, light appreciation for this movie prior to prior
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to covering it. I don't think either of us have
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: a particularly strong attachment. But I was thinking, as I
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: was watching this movie for you, what like, as much
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: as I was enjoying the movie, I'm like, what is
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: this movie doing that Shrek had not already done? Yes,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: a question, a legitimate question, and I will say, well,
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: you know, my thing is like I do think that
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel has more certainly more screen time than Princess Fiona
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: certainly has a more distinct well, I don't even know there.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I think that Fiona might do more with less screen time,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: and Shrek two thousand one is because she is. I mean, look,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: did I rewatch Trek before this? No? Should I have?
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Of course this is in a comparative study. I just
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: there's obviously, because Shrek is a rip off of literally everything,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Princess Fiona kind of has a Rapunzel thing going on.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: She has trapped in a tower against her will and
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: needs to be rescued. Right, I would argue that Rapunzel
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: has in this movie, at least in this version of
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the narrative, she has more agency than Fiona. She there's
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: no far quad. There's no far quad, so there's not
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: like a rival man. Right. The humor of the movie
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: does not rely on punching down in the way that
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Shrek humor often does. Excuse me, or just like kind
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: of outdated references the way that Shrek tends to do.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: I truly did not mean to start this as a
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: genuine conversation, but finishing it was a joke. I know,
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: but I think still a legitimate question. Donkey better than
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: Maximus certainly, Oh yeah, for sure, But I don't like
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Maximus is the Max the Horses arc. I don't like
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Max the Horse's arc. I say we cut Max honestly
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: because it's just my My central issue with this movie
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: is that it's there's so much Flynn, There's so much Flynn,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: and there's like, why does Flint, even Flynn's horse, have
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: an arc? Why not give that to Rapunzel's animal familiar,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: who is mostly just very adorable, which I love. But
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I'm like, we're giving the horse an arc, but we
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: still don't have any empathy for the villain. Like I
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: just I was like, too much, too much Flynn. As
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: much as I think zach rely By is handsome, he's
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: a cartoon in this. So what why am I watching this? No?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I agree my very scholarly opinion. Yeah, I say Max,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: take him to the backyard and put him down. That's
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: what I say about man. Wow, you want to send
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: him to the glue factor? Your face? Yeah, we gotta
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: turn Max into glue. I think he's he's mucking up
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: the story. I don't care about Flynn's rivalry with his
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: own horse. Well it's not his horse. Sorry. I I
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: as much as I love love a good horse, we
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: just went to medieval times. I love a good horse.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I went to the Kentucky Derby this year.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I love a good horse. Yeah. Okay, well that's I
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: think that brings us into the recap, because let's talk
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: about it. Here's the story of Rapunzel, or of Tangled Tangled,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: which is also a huge thing. Why is the name different?
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: We'll still talk about it, yes, okay, So we open
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: by learning about Rapunzel's backstory, which is told to us
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: by Flynn Rider. We will meet him for what reason later?
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Good question, and we are in you could say, medieval times.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Shout out to your recent birthday celebration. Shout out to
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: the Red Knight. Oh my god, Red Night, Red Night,
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Red Night King, the king of medieval times. Okay, I
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: went a park, a drop of sun fell to the earth,
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: and a magic golden flower grew from it that had
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: the ability to heal the sick and injured if you
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: sing a special song to the flower. Put a pin
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: in that. There is a kingdom with a king and
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: a queen, and the queen is gregnant, and she is
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: about to have a greg but she gets really sick.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: So the king's people, like the kingsman, reciput and go
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: out and search. This movie was missing a respute. Yeah,
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: where was Rescputen? Where was Resputen entangled? There, I'm gonna
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: start asking truly nonsense questions, start pivoting into extremely bad
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: faith analysis and being like, so, um, I thought this
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: movie was feminist, but then where was Resputen? Another question? Um? Okay?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: So the kingsmen go out to look for this golden
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: flower to heal the queen. But there's this woman, mother Goffel,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: who had already found the flower and has been hoarding
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: its power for centuries to keep herself young this whole time.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: But the kingsman find the flower and take it to
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: the queen to heal her. She gives birth to a
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: little girl with golden hair, and this, of course is Rapunzel,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and to celebrate the birth of their daughter, the King
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: and Queen release a floating lantern into the sky. Adorable
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: love it cute, But then mother Gothel shows up. Rapunzel's
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: hair has the same magical properties as the flower, and
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Gothel thinks she can cut some of the hair off
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: and use it to keep her young, but she discovers
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: that cutting this lock of Rapunzel's hair takes away its
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: magical properties and to her earns that strand of hair
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: that's still attached to her. Punzel's head renders it unmagical
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: and brown, gross brown hair bad you and me found
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: dead in a ditch like unbelievable. So basically, the hair
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: needs to be attached to Rapunzel's head in order for
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: it to retain its magical properties. So Gothel kidnaps Rapunzel
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: so that she can always have access to her hair.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Gothel keeps Rapunzel locked away in this tower hidden in
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: the forest, and raises Rapunzel as her own daughter, so
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel thinks that Gothel is her mother. Time passes, we
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: see Gozel singing this special song which activates the hair
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: and keeps her young. Um. We also learned that each year,
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: on Rapunzel's birthday at the castle far off in the distance,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: the King and Queen release hundreds of lanterns into the sky,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: hope being that their lost daughter will someday return. This
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: is something that Rapunzel always like watches and sees and
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: loves this event of the lanterns floating in the sky. Um. Okay,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: So then we cut two Rapunzel as a teenager. She's
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: still living in the tower. Her hair is like a
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: hundred feet long since it can't be cut because it'll
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: lose its powers. And I've watched, um, I've watched shorts
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: on how I mean, I know that, like it's extremely
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: extremely hard to animate hair, And after under fully understanding
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: that process and working in animation, I was like, wow, this.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: I wonder if if we have UM like legit animators
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: listening to the show, does watching these things with the
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: hair give you a panic attack? Because it stresses me
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: out and I don't even understand computer animation, UM, but
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: you're like wow, Wow. This was like the most expensive
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: UM Disney movie produced to date, and partially because of
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: development stuff that we'll talk about right. Also because like
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: the budget, like how many people you need to have
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: on hair duty alone is just like wild. Anyways, the
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: budget shout out to hair animators. The budget for this
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: was I think two and sixty million dollars, making it
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: one of the highest budget movies ever and the highest
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: budget animated movie of all time. I think. I don't
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: know if that record has been broken since then, but
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: it but it's just by other Disney movies, So I
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: don't think we need to give them more airtime. But
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: one of them was Zootopia, the movie I disliked the most. Okay,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: so we learned about Rapunzel's life, which is pretty uneventful. Basically,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: she just spends all day trying to keep herself occupied.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: So she cleans, she cooks, she reads, she paints, she
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: plays guitar, she puts together puzzles, she plays chess. She
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: does all these things to occupy her time. And her
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: only friend is a chameleon named Pascal. She gets regular
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: visits from Gothel, but Gothel doesn't seem to live in
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: the tower with her, so Rapunzel is pretty isolated. The
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: point basically being that she wants much more than this
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: provincial life all the way down to like the I
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: feel like that had to be a Beauty in the
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Beast reference for when she gets out of the tower
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: and there's that little what do you call those goddamn
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: poof plants um with the seedlings that fly into where
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: those are like dandelions, like dandelion, it's something about dandelions.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: We're botanists, so we should not this um. But yeah,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: that do you remember that? That's like a very specific
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: image and Beauty and the Beast I remember, And then
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel has the same image, but this time it's computers,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: and she's in the middle of saying about how she
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: wants much more than this whatever tower life based life
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: hashtag tower life. So okay. So Rapunzela has decided to
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: ask Goszel if she can go outside and see the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: floating lights, especially because tomorrow is Rapunzel's eighteenth birthday. And
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: she feels that these lights, which we know are the
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: lanterns that the castle releases, she feels that they're kind
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: of meant for her somehow, that she has some connection
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: to them. And Gothel is like, no way, I know
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: it's best for you. It's not safe out there. You
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: can't handle yourself out there. You're not strong enough to
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: go into this dangerous world. Yes, she's doing quite a
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: bit of nagging, poor Rapunzel. There's a lot to discuss
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: with this uh mother dog relationship, for sure, Yes, and
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: also with just like Gothel in general, because for all
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: of this movie seems to think it's subverting some of
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: which it actually is, a lot of which it isn't.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I feel like Gothel is like glaring, like we can
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: have sympathy for everyone, but uh, woman over Ford, right, Okay.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: So meanwhile, Flynn writer the narrator guy who is a bandit,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: steals a crown from the castle and is fleeing the
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: castle guards along with his two kind of like the
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: good buddies, the Stabbington brothers. Great name. Gotta hand it
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: to him. It sounds a lot like Paddington. Also, that's
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: his evil cousins. There's Paddington's and then there's Stabbington's. Um.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: So do you think that that will be an element
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: of Paddington theory? God, that sounds like honestly, uh, robot
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: chicken pitch that would have been rejected from me, from you, yes, specifically, Well,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that's free for someone. So they're escaping. There's this horse
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: named Maximus, one of like the castle horses. Uh. He's
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: chasing Flynn, and Flynn escapes and but sabotages the Stabbington
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: brothers along the way. And then Flynn stumbles upon Rapunzel's tower.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: He climbs it and goes into her room, and Rapunzel,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: startled by this intruder, bonks him on the head with
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: a frying pan. There's a whole chat to have about that.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Classic a subversive bonk. Wow, hilarious. Um I actually have some,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: you know, some unexpected thoughts about this. Perhaps, well, I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: think I'm excited to have this discussion because this was
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: frying pan that didn't super broth. Same will unpack. But
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: but on first glance, you're just like, well, there it
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: is there, it is right. Yeah, there's no weapons in there.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: So Rapunzel bonks him on the head and stuffs him
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: in her closet, and then she's like, wow, wait a minute,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I am strong enough to handle myself. So she lets
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: Flynn back out. She ties him up with her hair,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: she hides his satchel with the crown that he stole,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: and she's like, I will give you your satchel back
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: if you take me to see the lanterns tomorrow night.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: He reluctantly agrees, and then she finally leaves her tower
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: for the first time, goes outside. She loves the freedom,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: but she's also racked with guilt for disobeying her mother,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: which I really thought was different and I liked that. Yeah, Oh,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: they showed that emotional struggle for sure. Meanwhile, Flynn is
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: trying to get out of taking Rapunzel to see the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: lanterns because he's a wanted man and he can't just go,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: you know, gallivanting around, so he takes her to this
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: kind of like rough and tumble tavern with a lot
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: of scary ruffians. The twist is, but the twist is
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: they're nice. They're nice, especially after Rapunzel inspires them to
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: sing about their hopes and dreams. Kind of cute that
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: song that they say where they're like, I actually have dreams. Okay,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: can you guess? Can you guess what other Disney song
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: that heavily reminded me of? Um? Is it the one
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: in Beauty and the Beast with Gaston singing in the tavern? No,
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: it is stick to the status quo from High School Musical,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: because about like, I seem like one thing, but here's
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: my secret dream. I want to break dance. I like baking.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I'm a skateboarder, but I play the jella Anyways, that
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: I was just like, Wow, it's better. It's better the
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: high school musical song. I liked this song, but I
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: was like, kind of a flagrant rip off. Stick to
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: see what you're saying, same premise, pre incredible, yep, Okay,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: thank you so much. That's why they pay me the
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: medium book inside like that, So they're singing about their
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: their dreams, and Gosfel is following them, as are the
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: castle guards, as are the Stabbington brothers. So Rapunzel and
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: Flynn have to run off and um. During this chase,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel and Flynn get trapped in a mind shaft or something.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: It's pitch black, it's filling with water. But then Rapunzel
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: remembers that her hair is magic and it glows when
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: you sing that special song, so she does that to
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: kind of light the way and allow them to escape.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: She then uses her hair to heal a cut on
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Flynn's hand, and he's like, oh my gosh, wow. And
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: then they're vibing and they're like flirting, and then he
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: goes off to get some firewood, much like Shrek goes
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: off to get some firewood after he and Fiona. How
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: men really? Do men who help you out of the tower?
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: Do you be getting firewood? Don't they? It is a
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: trope at this point. Yeah, So he's off and it's
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: just Rapunzel and then Gothel shows up and she's like
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: what the hell Rapunzel, and Rapunzel is like, Flynn likes me,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: and I am enjoying this freedom and Gothel is like,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: no way, he's just sticking around because he wants that
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: crown that you have and he'll leave you as soon
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: as he gets it, and she gives the crown back
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: to Rapunzel, and Gothel disappears with a with like a play.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: You can you can tell she's like plotting something. So
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the next morning we're Punzel and Flynn set off for
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: the castle and they befriend maximum missed the horse along
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the way. They get to the castle, Rapunzel gets her
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: hair braided and then she livens up the place with
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: dance and music and drawings and everywhere that Rapunzel goes,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: she just kind of inspires the best in people. She's
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: not like other girls. Caitlin, she's nice, question Mark, she's nice.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: She and Flynn also seemed to be vibing more. And
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: then he takes her out on a little boat and
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: across the way the King and Queen release hundreds of lanterns.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: It's very beautiful and romantic, and Rapunzel and Flynn almost kiss,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: but oh no, the Stabbington brothers show up and they
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: want Rapunzel because Goffel had told them that she and
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: her hair are very valuable. So they try to kidnap
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: her um, but Goffel shows up and knocks them out.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: While this is happening, it seems like Flynn has taken
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: off with the crown and like betrayed Rapunzel much while
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: not much like not to keep comparing this to Shrek,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: but it's like that second act point during Shrek where
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Shrek thinks that Fiona has is like saying that he's
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: not good enough for her, when really she's discussing her
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: own insecurities. So a misunderstanding is pulling the couple apart. True, yes,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Then Goffel takes Rapunzel back to her tower, where after
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: examining all the art that Rapunzel has made over the years,
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: she realizes a pattern the shape of the sun always appears,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: which is like the symbol of the castle and kingdom,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: and she realizes that she is the daughter of the
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: king and Queen. So she confronts Goffel now knowing that
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: she was kidnapped and the Gothel has been using Rapunzel's
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: magic hair all of these years, and they have an altercation. Meanwhile,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Flynn is about to be hanged for his like thievery,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: but all the guys from the Tavern show up and
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: save him. So he gets on Max the horse and
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: races two Rapunzel's tower. But oh no, Gosseel stabs Flynn
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: when he shows up, which is I honestly I kind
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: of forgot that that happened. And I was like, whoa,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: I know, I feel like you don't usually get that.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't hate it, like I feel like I'm always
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: complaining about how Disney villains aren't allowed to be like
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: absolutely evil anymore. Um, and I was like, oh, she
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: literally stab Zachary Levi. That falls under the column of evil. Yeah,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: it's it's more overt violence than we've seen in Disney
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: movies in a long time. Like usually there isn't like
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: if violence does happen, it's only very suggested, or it
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: happens off screen or someone falls off a cliff. But
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: I honestly did not. I mean, if I was a kid,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I probably would have been pretty scared, but like make
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: kids afraid again. Well the so, okay, what happens after
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: this is Rapunzel strikes a deal with Gothel. If she
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: lets Rapunzel, he'll Flynn with her hair. She will go
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: willingly with Gothel, but if not, she'll basically fight every
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: waking moment of her life to try to get away
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: from Gothel. So she goes to He'll Flynn, but he
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: chops off all of Rapunzel's hair, making her the baldest
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: woman in charge, so that Gothel will die and Rapunzel
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: will be free of her. But like Gothel's death here
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: is very scary for children's movie because like the horror
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: imagery of it all, Like if I was a kid
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: and I saw that they well they body horror the
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: ship out of this character for a moment one But
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: you're I totally agree where the ending is like brutal.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: The only thing that they you know, I guess relieve
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: you of is you don't have to see her girl
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: splat because she turns into dust before she hits the ground.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I kind of love and someone turns to dust. But
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: it is also a very very witch canon to turn
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: evil witch canon to turn to dust, because that's what
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: happens to the Witch from the Wizard of Oz. She
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: just doesn't oh yeah, she just kind of melts and disappears.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean we have there's
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: a whole discussion around Gotholpe, but that is that is
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: a pretty even by like Disney standards, twenty years before
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: this movie came out. That's a pretty scary ending totally.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: And then the Rapunzel's whole being ready to die for
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about that too, because I was just like,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I felt like that was We're so close to like
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: a really cool, exciting, you know, princess aversion. And then
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: her agency is like taken from her at the very
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: end of the movie, right, especially because like he cuts
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: off her hair rather than like her cutting off her
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: own hair. It would have been much better this unrelated
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: but like he cuts her hair off into a perfect
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: picks he cut Um, incredible, well done, but whatever, that's um,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: that's fun movie nonsense, but not fun movie nonsense. Was Yeah,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I felt like her And we'll talk about this in
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: more detail in a second, but like her agency was
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: completely like ripped from her at the peak of the movies,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: at the action where she was like, you know, you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: have to be a self sacrificing person to be considered
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: you know, legitimate, yeah woman, and um, and then he
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: made the decision that ends up saving everybody. Great who
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: and then and then we get closure with his fucking horse.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry I'm anti the horse. Get the horse out
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: of there. Yeah, I see your point. Yeah, that was
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: very frustrating, and we'll we'll unpack that shortly. But basically,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: the movie ends with Rapunzel and Flynn professing their love
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: for each other. As Flynn dies and desperate to save him,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: she sings the song to you know heal his wound,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't seem like it's going to work because
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: her hair has been chopped off and it's not magical anymore.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: But then her tear drop falls on his face a
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: k A a drop of sunshine perhaps, and her magic
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: works and he comes back to life, and then they kiss,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: and then they go to the castle and she's like, hi,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Mom and dad, it's me your daughter, but I have
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: brown hair now, and they're like, why is there? Okay
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: another like does another too much Flynn moment? Get Flynn
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: out of that scene. I don't need Flynn in that scene.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: This is like And also their reunion is wordless question
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: mark between her and her parents. Yeah, why no words?
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: And why is Flynn there? Great questions? Yes, So Rapunzel
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: returns to the Kingdom. The Kingdom celebrates Rapunzel and Flynn
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: get married and they live happily ever after. So that's
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: the story. Let's take a quick break and come back
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to discuss. And we're back. We're back, and I've let
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: down my hair. I haven't. It's a mess today. Um,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: where do we want to start? I mean, I should
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: we just start with Rapunzel herself. Yeah, I would like
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, her as a Disney princess
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: and the way that as we've hinted at, like there
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: are some subversions to the kind of classic Disney fairytale princess.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: There are tropes that get you know, reinforced in this movie.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: There's there's a lot to unpack. Um, I would say overall,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: and I guess it depends on kind of what era
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: of Disney princess movie you compare this too. She falls
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: into the very classic Like you know, she's kind of
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: stuck in the beginning. She wants much more than this
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: provincial life. Um, she's not motivated by love or romance
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: the way that like snow White is, She's more like
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: she's Yeah, she's definitely doing laps around the early Disney princess.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: It's more it's closer to like Belle from Beauty and
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: the Beast where she longs for kind of just to
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: see what's out there in the world. She's a prisoner
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: for a large portion of the movie. Yes, like Bell.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: So so there's that um she I would say, is
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: more active and has more agency than most Disney fairy
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: tale princesses of older generations up into a point at
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: least for a good amount of the movie. And then
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: there's a point where there's that comes to a screeching
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: halt in a way that I was like, really kind
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: of bummed out by. Yeah, I like the I I
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: really I like Rapunzela. I can see I it's like
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: this sort of thing where like I can see where
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: they were trying to go with her and also like
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: the shut off of where they were willing, like how
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: far they were willing to go. Because I do think
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: that there are Disney princesses that came and whatever. Here
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: we are comparing a group of fictional women to each other,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: but they are all built from the same mold, like canonically,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: um and I do think that there are princesses that
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: came before Rapunzel that like, were more active and progressive
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: than Rapunzel. Mulan. I think as a person who really
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: comes to mind there of like Rapunzel's not topping uh
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Mulan in terms of her agency and activeness and sort
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: of fullness of story. But I do think that she is,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: especially because this is like a Disney fairy tale movie.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: She seems to be, you know, the most active of
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: the European fairy tale princesses, of which there are a
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: stunning amount. I like that she is involved in a
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: bunch of action sequences. I like that she at least
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: I think that a lot of them kind of come
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: up hollow and kind of um ring a little. I'm
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: banning the word girl boss from my vocabulary because I
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: think it's just like misused at this point, and like
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: sometimes people say girl boss when they say woman with agency,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: and it's kind of like I think it's sometimes using
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: a misogynist way at this point, and it bothers me.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: But I think that, you know, it's like, I don't know,
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: the Rapunzel stands up to her mom several times, but
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: it usually ends up being story wise, kind of a
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: hollow gesture because ultimately what severs her tie from her
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: mom something Flynn does whatever. But but I don't I
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: don't know they were definitely pros and constant. I like
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: her a lot. I like her a lot. I like
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: how she's written. I love Manny Moore's performance. I like
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: that she like us as all of the skills that
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: she has, and like participates in the action usually in
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: about equal measure. She rescues Flynn a number of times.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: He also rescues her. But it does feel like, I mean,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: even though whatever, we've already said this and will continue
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: to discuss, Like, I think Flynn has an outsized presence
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: in this movie in a way that is not you know,
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's Disney executives that say that that was
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: very on purpose, but given that that is the choice
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: they made. I like that they are usually fighting and
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: rescuing each other in equal measure. Like, it's not like
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: and that she you know, she's using her hair. She's
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: like tarzanning around on her fucking hair. It's really cool.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: She does fight and defend herself. She chooses to deceive
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: her mom, she chooses to you know, take Flynn as
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: her hostage, and I like it. I like her. Yeah,
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: there's also like she's cool. Not only is she able
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: to engage in like combat, she also um like chooses
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: non violence sometimes where like that scene in the tavern,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: which I think is also an interesting subversion of like
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: but you would expect of like, oh, all these like
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: toxic men end up being like I want to be
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: a concert pianist, I want to be a mom. You know,
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: like all these artistic pursuits doesn't mean that you can't
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: also be toxic if you're a male artist. But I
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: just the point is, you know, she inspires, like she
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: inspires people to follow their dreams, and she inspires the
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: best in people. Um, but I agree, Yeah, there there
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: is an outside presence of the male lead in the movie,
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: which which men in general and in general, like there's
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: so many ancillary men in this movie. I feel that
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: because I like this movie and I'm coming down harder
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: on it than I'm expecting to I was expecting to.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: But I do I mean Rapunza, Yeah, I totally agree
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: with you. Where it's like she has moments of action
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: and combat and then she also has moments where she
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: chooses non violence and it pays off in a big way.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I think that that's good. I feel like often empathy
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: and listening to people is regarded as a very like
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: traditionally feminine trait, and sometimes that's presented as bad as
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: a weakness. Yeah, when it's like when it's the reality
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: is like everyone should everyone has the capacity for that,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: and everyone, regardless of gender right can do everything right right,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And it's like everyone is capable of empathy. So that
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: I like that she chooses moments and then then the
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: same as much as I can't stand the horse, she
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: negotiates with the horse and one moment where and and
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: and it does feel like that's intentionally done because there
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: are moments where Flynn is choosing combat again and again,
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: and then it's Rapunzel's talking and listening to people that
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: actually resolves the problem in the tavern and with the horse,
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: because Flynn is also fighting his horse, because why is
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: this horse here? Um? And that like on Flynn's and
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: his you know, penchant for swashbuckling is you know, masking
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of his own insecurities, which we learn about,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: We learned his back story. We learned that he has
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: like kind of put on this fake persona as a
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: defense mechanism. More or less, he wants, he wanted much
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: more than that orphanage life. Um. So, so you know,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I like, I liked I liked that. I like Rapunzel
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: is like a more I feel like she had. She
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: has traits that your traditional Disney princess has, which is
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: like extreme loyalty, a lot of empathyness. Empathy inspires people
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: to follow her your dreams, like you're saying. But also
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: the those are traits that are very important to who
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: she is. But it's not like all she's capable. She
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: gets angry, she understands, at least when her mother's disrespecting her.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: She doesn't always even to understand Flinn's doing it. But um,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel is. I like her. I'm pro I just think
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: that there are certain things that um undercut what a
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: cool character they set up there, such as and we
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: hinted at this also, but the big climactic moment at
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: the end is her ending up with a man and
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: like being in a Head of Row romance. When the
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: narrative that had been set up for her was I
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: want to escape this tower. I want to like go
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: and see the lanterns, which could be kind of code
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: at for just like I want to see the world
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: and explore and discover who I am, she wants to
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: be where the people are. Disney prince basic ship. She
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: wants to or and slash Quasimodo like Wealthy Mottel also
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Tower canon, get me out of this tower cannon evil
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: person in the Tower canon. So so she has these
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: kind of dreams too. But then also like you could
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: argue that like her wanting to go out and and
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: and you know, discover herself, discover the world her, you know,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: find her place in the world. Part of a lot
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: of people's journey of self discovery involves figuring out what
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: type of relationships you want to be in, and some
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: of those relationships might be romantic, so you know that
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: is a thing for a lot of people. Um, but
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: it just it still feels like here we are with
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: another like Disney Fairytale Princess story, and of course she
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: has to end up in a hetero romance at the end,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: right And it's like they I think it's interesting and
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: very like of the time, how they choose to skirt
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: the fact that that's absolutely what they're doing. I thought
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: it was like I I Caitlin I l o lt
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: when they do this fucking like gymnastics thing at the
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: end where they're like, well we didn't get married right
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: away and it's like all done in voiceover, was like,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: we didn't get married right away, but a couple of years,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: and we dated for a couple of years, and then
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: of course we got married. And then you still see
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: the wedding like you do at the end of any
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: fucking Disney movie. But they they do this really quick,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: like oh, no, we get it. That's like that's weird,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: and you're like, well, in whatever royalty, that's not actually
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: really that weird. But they're like, but no, we dated,
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: we're regular, We're just like you, and then we and
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: then the movie ends exactly like you know it's going
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: to end. I just like that was like I think
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: one of the many like two like we're trying to
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: do something, but actually we are not courageous enough to
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: actually stick the landing on doing it, which is a
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: lot of things in this movie. I thought that, like, well, actually,
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: before we get to Flynn, let's talk frying pan. Is
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: it frying pan time? Let's let's pivoting to frying pans.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Let's take a let's take a break, and then we'll
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: get to frying pan. So be right back and we
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: are back. We're back, all right, frying pan time for
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: frying pan discourse. So I mean, let's kind of I
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: think that this is kind of I have a feeling
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: we're on the same track with this, and I think
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: it's an interesting look. We've been doing the show for
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: six years now, and I think that there has been
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of um development in ways to have feminist
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: and intersectional feminist discourse during that time. Certainly, I think
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: perhaps we would have had a more kind of uh,
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: I guess there's a very two intends way to criticize
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: some movies that maybe don't hold up as well now,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: and I think frying pan discourse um is an area
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: where there's been a little bit of shifting. So that mind,
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: let's let's talk frying pan. So Rapunzel for people who
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: haven't seen Tangled but are still listening, and we celebrate
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: that Rapunzel her like go to weapon is frying frying pan,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: which we have said on this show before, and I
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: think in some cases it genuinely is true. Can be
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: a sort of sexist trope. We've seen it many times,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: and I think in a lot of older movies it
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: is kind of a sexist trope where it's just like, well,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: what would a woman fight with body, very domestic object.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: That's the basis of frying pan discourse. We we have
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: talked about this trope a lot on the cast where
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: what we tend to see in movies is combat scenes.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: If women are allowed to participate in the action, the
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: story is written so that the women are made to
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: fight with household objects, and frying pan comes up again
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: and again. We saw this in like Raiders of the
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Lost Art we see it and who framed Roger Rabbit
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: other examples that I can't remember off the top of
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: my head. I think a lot of horror movies this happens. Yeah,
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: I mean there's a lot of kitchen knife staff the
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: original Halloween that makes more sense, but um, there's also
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Disney cartoons this has taken place in like sure plenty
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: of times. I don't think by a primary character, but
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: I do specifically remember like a villager from Beauty and
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: the Beast fighting with a frying pan like this has
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: happened in animation, live action for for generations generations. So
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: this is what women are expected to fight with, whereas
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: men in the same combat scenes in the same movie
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: are equipped with weapons, actual weapons that they fight with.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: The implication often being well women can't Slash don't know
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: how Slash, don't have the skills, Slash could never develop
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: the skills to fight with weapons. But they do know
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: their way around frying pans and other household objects, ones
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: that are especially gendered if you consider, like, oh, well,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: women have historically been expected to cook and clean, so
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: they know how to use like frying pans and brooms,
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: and those are their weapons now. So, like you said,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of movies in those scenes do have those
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: sexist implications. But as with pretty much everything, context is
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: very important. And when you consider Rapunzel's context, where by
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: you know, whereby whereby whereby? Gothel controls everything that Rapunzel
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: has access to, and this is a whole separate conversation,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: and she certainly wouldn't be giving Rapunzel access to weapons
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: of any kind. Exactly. The only thing that Rapunzel does
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: have access to our household items. And if you have
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: an intruder, a cast iron skillet is a pretty decent weapon.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: It's heavy, it'll do damage, it's got to handle, so
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: it's easy to wield, etcetera. I was kind of saying,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: I was thinking of like, just because the opening song
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: is like puns getting more and more bored of the
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: mostly domestic, e kind of tasks and activities that are
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: made available to her. Um which again, like that context
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: is important. It's not like she has a choice of
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: everything to do in the world and she's choosing sewing, cooking, cleaning,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: like those are the only things she's given to do.
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: Her life is very thoroughly controlled. So totally the only
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: other thing I was like, m get those knitting needles
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: in in the mix, but it's like the cats are
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: in skillet I I totally agree, is like the most
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: easily yield the ball weapon And why does she use it?
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: She uses it quite a bit, to the point where
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: it becomes a motif throughout the movie, where so Flynn
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: uses it himself as a weapon, which I thought was cool.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: So what happens basically that the trajectory of the frying
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: pan is this where Puntal uses it several times on
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Flynn when he first comes into the tower, and she
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: like does damage with it. She knocks him unconscious several times.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: She then brings it along on the journey outside of
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: the tower and brandishes it as a weapon anytime she
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: feels she's in danger. So that happens a number of
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: times later, Like you said, Flynn uses it as a
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: weapon when he's fighting off the guards in that scene
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: what they're at the damn and he loves it. He's like, Wow,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: this is such an effective weapon. I'm going to get
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: myself days and it is. And then towards the end,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: when the Ruffians are saving Flynn from being hanged, one
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: of them uses the frying pan to knock out a
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: guard and he and Flynn are both like, wooho, what
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: an awesome weapon. So, while this trope has been seen
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: again and again in movies, specifically with women wielding a
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: fronting pan as a weapon, I feel like when you
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: consider the context and what Rapunzel has access to, and
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: the fact that it then is used as a weapon
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: by multiple characters across the gender spectrum, I feel like
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: it's a little bit more nuanced and tangled. I agree,
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: um yeah, And I like that they kind of it almost.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: It felt more like they were commenting on that trope
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: that when it appears as often very baseless and like
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: you were saying, with the assumption that it's like this
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: is all they would know how to use because women
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: are pans, But in this case, they I got contextualized
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: it well, Rapunzel wield it as a weapon over and over,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: did we I mean, and and I whatever. I think
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: that this is open for criticism. But the fact that
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Flynn validated it as a weapon, which like m hm,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: but two ten, I see what they were trying to do.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think maybe maybe a bit of a
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: twist on the pan discourse you're expecting exactly. So let's
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: let's get into Flynn a little bit. Um So, he's
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: kind of he's a bit of an Aladdin type. Um.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: I would say he's he's a steeler, he's a crimer.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: He doesn't have a mama or a dad, you know,
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: he doesn't have a parent, So he's like Aladdin without
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: the class stuff basically. Sure, so he's kind of swashbuckling around.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: The thing is like with Flynn for the most part,
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: I like, don't dislike him as a character. I do
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: think there's a lot of things he does at the
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: beginning of the narrative with Rapunzel where he clearly wants
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: to get rid of her. He just wants to get
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: what he needs and go on his way. And I
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: get that that's his character journey. He needs to realize
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: that that's a shitty way to behave. But he's pretty
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: cruel to her at the beginning and like notices her
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: insecurities and fear of her own mother, and instead of
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: talking to her about it, weaponizes it against her two
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: times back to back. At first he was like, I've
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: noticed that you are feeling a lot of grief and
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: guilt and confusion about whether you should be like striking
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: out on your own, which to go back to a
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: puzzle for a second, I thought, was I liked that
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: they showed that in her where like it felt like
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: you know, for Disney fantasy movie, pretty realistic of like
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: her mom repeatedly guilts her for like thinking she would
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: be capable of doing it anything, So of course when
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: she gets out and she enjoys it, she's like, I'm
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: a horrible person. No great, the complicated feelings, right, which
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: is a relatable feeling to some extent for for a
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: lot of people. But Flynn, you know, obviously like notices
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: exactly what's going on and instead uses it instead of
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: saying what is obvious, which is like your mom treats
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: you really badly and like you should feel okay about
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: striking out on your own, like you're not doing anything wrong.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: He had Stead says like, wow, looks like you like
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: he does exactly what her mom does, and he does
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: that a couple different times. And as much as I
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: appreciate that you get context into Flynn's character and you
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: get some insight into why he is the way he is,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: I felt like it was like a pointed thing that
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: you get that for Flynn, who treats her the same
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: way as Gothel at the beginning of the movie. But
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: you don't get that for Gothel. She is just a
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: villainous villain who is old but wants to be young,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: and that is it. There is no more context we'll
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: get into discussion around her, but the whole like you
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: know old Crone stereotype that like an anxiety around aging
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: for women is a personal defect and not part of
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: a larger societal pressure. It's like, oh, that's that's on you,
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: which I thought was kind of like incredible that they
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: didn't like in two thousand ten. I felt like, come on,
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: but you know, like Flynn certainly grows as a character
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: throughout the movie whatever, Like he has an outsized presence
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: in the movie, which is why you get the context
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: for him that you do. Um, I think that context
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: is pretty effective. But he never like correct me Mark.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: He never really apologizes for doing what he does at
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: the beginning, which is very manipulative and cruel. It's not nice,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: that's not boyfriendship to do. Yeah. I was frustrated by
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: the romantic storyline because you know that that's where it's going,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: that they're going to end up together. We saw it
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: in Trek, We saw it in every fairy tale ever made,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: but most importantly, most importantly in Trek, where he starts
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: out as a dick. Yeah, he's manipulative. He weaponizes her
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: own insecurities against her. He tries to like seduce her
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: at various moments where he's like, let me do this, smolder.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: You know, he's just trying to like use various manipulation
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: tactics to get what he wants out of her, and
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: doesn't treat her well along the way. Uh. Of course
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: he does soften up as the story goes. I also
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: don't really know why they like each other by the end.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: This is a problem I have with most romantic storylines
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: and movies, where it's like, well, yes, they're both attractive
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: and they are near each other, but what else, why
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: else are they drawn to each other in a sustainable
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: way that would like sustain a relationship. I don't really
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: see it here at least. And this is like giving
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: the movie probably credit that it doesn't do serve but um,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: because Rapunzel has been locked in a tower for eighteen
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: years and has never ventured out into the world, there
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: was I thought a big danger of the born Sexy
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: Yesterday trope being leaned into where she wouldn't know anything.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: She wouldn't know sure what common objects were, or like
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: how to interact with people or things like that. She
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: does fall in love with the first man she meets, Yes,
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: that is part of that trope, but she is able
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: to hold her own as a person out in the
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: world far better than you know, other born Sexy Yesterday tropes.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I agree, And I think that that is like contextualized
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: by the fact that she interacts with her mom all
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: the time, who like doesn't seem to have a vested
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: interest in keeping her away from very basic knowledge. And
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: she read the toun so it's not like she would
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: have any understanding of how that works. So that all
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: made sense for me in context, And I feel like
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: saved us a lot of annoying trophy, like what is this? Um? Yeah, yeah,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Like I think the only moment you get that is
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: when she puts her feet on the grass, which I
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: thought was actually kind of beautiful and made me tear up.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: It was nice. Um. But yeah, so I appreciate it
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: that that wasn't a part of the story. But Flynn overall,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: it is especially annoying to me because and maybe maybe
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: I could be talked out of this. But her goal,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: her desire that drives most of the narrative is to
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: go see these lanterns, which again you can kind of
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: interpret as just a larger like I want to venture
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: out into the world and see what the world has
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: to offer and see where what my places in the world.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Because she also like feels this connection. She's like, who
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: am I What these lanterns happen on my birthday? Is
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: it related to me and my backs? You know? She like,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: once to figure out all these things totally all works
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: for me, And I wish that that had been the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: actual resolution of the story in the big climactic moment
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: rather than and it's part of it, of course, but
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: the big climactic moment having her recaptured, recaped, and then
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: like she has to save Flynn, and she's prepared to
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: like sacrifice her freedom in order to save him. And then,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: like we said, he's the one who chops off her
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: hair thereby saving her, which takes away her agency. I
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: saved her from herself, Like I just really didn't like that.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: I kind of forgot that that was how it ended.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: I remembered that her hair gets cut off, and that's
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: how like the villain is defeated. But I thought I
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: was like certain that she cut off her own hair
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: so that when so when he did it, I was like, what,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. Well, here here's Jamie's a little hot tech.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: If she were the protagonist of the movie, she would
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: have But I don't think she's the protagonist of the movie.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: I think it's Flynn because of all this other stuff
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: that we'll talk about in a second. But like, if
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: the protagonists in the movie is going to do anything,
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: it's going to be defeat the villain. She doesn't defeat
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: the villain that she has the closer relationship with. Flynn
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: has never met this lady, Like there's no reason, even
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: like storytelling, why is that he would be the one
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: to defeat a villain he has no connection to we've
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: seen like everything, I kind of wonder at what, like
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: if there there has to be a draft of this
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: script where she does it, because that's what the whole
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: movie is fucking building. We see her, she has two
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: or three I thought, pretty effective confrontations, and she keeps
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: trying to escape her mother's grasp and then is not successful.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: That doesn't even bother me, Like she's in this like
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: abusive situation you don't always get out on the first try.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: But it's a fucking kids fantasy movie. She should be
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: the one to remove herself from the situation at the end,
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: but she's in stead ready to trap herself in that
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: situation permanently in order to rescue the first guy she's
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: ever met. And it's just like I felt like it
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: doubled down worse than Disney movies that were coming out
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: twenty years before this, Like it just it really bumped
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: me out, Like she doesn't get to kill the fucking villain,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: especially we have spent so much time, Like it would
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: have been so satisfying if she and it still would
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: have had all the ages stuff going on, but it
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: would have like I just like, it doesn't even make
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: sense as a movie for Flynn to be the one
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: to initiate the ending. But I think that he's like
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: the movies protagonist. Honestly, we see it's more than change
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: in him than we see change in Rapunzel. He's the
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: first fucking face you see on the screen. He's narrating
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: the movie for some reason. I don't even think she's
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: the protagonist of her own movie, which is why that's
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: like it bothers me. I would maybe argue that she
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: is like a dual protagonist situation, but why it should
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: just be Rapunzel. He doesn't have a song, I guess
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: except for this song where they're like kiss the Girling.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's her desire and goal that drives
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: the narrative, So I would are you dual protagonists? But
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: even so, it's like, well, it's a princess movie. Why
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: are we I think that that, Like that's something that
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: bothers me, is like they're like, the way that we're
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: going to subvert the princess movie is by making a
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: man a dual protagonist. Like that just does not work
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: for me. Not that it's like you can't have a
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: buddy movie with characters of more than one gender. That's
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: totally fine, but it's like, just because of the way
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: this movie was specifically marketed as like this is a
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: new kind of princess movie, where a lot of the
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: princess movies suck ass and are like reinforcing every trope
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: in the book and every stereotype in the book. But
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: at least they are clearly the protagonist. I agree with
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: what you're saying, like Nn isn't the um soul protagonist,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't make any fucking sense that he gets
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: the final blow in that storyline, especially because the movie
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: up until that point seems to have a very vested
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: interest in making Rapunzel way more active, especially versus how
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: she is in the brother's grim fairy tale version of
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: the story. That's why I feel like pretty convinced that
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: there had to be a different draft of because this
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: movie was in development for nine thousand years and its
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: first draft was and they said this themselves, not in
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: this delightful way, but um Shreky in yes, where they
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: literally like we're going to do Rapunzel Shrek. But then
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: you know, later on in production they're like, well, we
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: want to like give this a more wholesome core, a
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: more Disney core. So you have those shreky and elements
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: and then you have those Disney elements. And I think
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: that that is the place where it's like chafing the hardest,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: because if you're trying to have Flynn Ryder be Shrek,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: first of all, it's not going to happen. Honey. There's
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: only one There's only one truck, and I wouldn't have
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: it any other way. But it really bugged me. Okay,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: So actually, let's well, because it keeps coming up. The
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: production of this movie. It was in development forever. It
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: was originally announced as Rapunzel Unbraided in October two thousand
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: and three, which the director himself described as a Shrek
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: like version of the film. He didn't think to because
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: the word shreky and wasn't around back then. This was
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Glenn key who started developing the story in nineteen six.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: He eventually left left the project. Um but yeah, because
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: it wasn't shreky and enough. It wasn't. He's like, not
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: not sure, keen enough, I'm leaving. I'm out fair enough.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: But yeah, So it started as a Glenn Keene Shrek
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: rip off, which is wildau Shruck was made despite Disney whatever.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: The story has been told a million times, but like
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: it was supposed to take place in San Francisco and
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: revolve around teenagers named Claire and Vince, question mark, it
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: kind of sounds more like Enchanted than it sounds like
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: Shrek or Tangled. Um, but anyways, that is obviously not
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: uh what ended up happening. So then eventually Glenn Keene
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: leaves the project. Rapunzel Umbraided is changed to Rapunzel, which
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: makes sense. Most of the Princess movies are named for
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: the protagonist, um with I think the exception of Beauty
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: and the Beast um, but you've got the Little Mermaids,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: snow White, Sleeping Beauty. Jasmine is not the protagonist of Aladdin,
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: so there you what Pocahontas which but it is named
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: after her, and so the movie is going to be
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: called Rapunzel. The Princess and the Frog is the one
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: that comes immediately before this. So the story here is
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: that Princess and the Frog comes out the year before Tangled.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: And while it was like people enjoyed the movie, you
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: can listen to our episode about it that we we
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: simply cannot get into it right now. There's pros and cons.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: But the movie was considered to have underperformed at the
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: box office. And the reason that they decided that it
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: underperformed at the box office is because the word princess
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: was in the title, which, allegedly, per Disney executives, meant
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: that young boys would not want to see a movie
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: with the word princess in the title, or a movie
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: named after a princess. So they rework the story to
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: have to protagonists, including an action boy named Flynn Ryder,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: and they change the movie's title from Rapunzel two Tangled,
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: which I think rightfully caused a lot of controversy and
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: I think annoyance within the company. Um onkind of quote
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: a former Disney Pixar animator named Floyd Norman, who said, quote,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: the idea of changing the title of a classic like
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel to Tangle just beyond stupid. I'm convinced they'll gain
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: nothing from this except the public seeing Disney as desperately
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: trying to find an audience. We've got another writer named
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: Margot McGowan saying, can you imagine if Disney switched to
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: movie title so it wouldn't risk highlighting a male star.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: It's awful that this kind of radical gender discrimination exists
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: for our smallest people, which at first I was like,
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? She means kids, children,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: little little kids who come into this world with huge
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: imaginations and aspirations, big dreams that get squashed by a
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: bunch of billionaire guys who run massive entertainment franchises. People
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: had fun with, you know, being like, what what are
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: we gonna call Little Mermaid beached or whatever? Like it
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: is kind of an obvious thing. And then UM famous
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: sexual harasser John Lasseter finally spoke out on the issue
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: UM four years after the movie is released in March
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: um saying that this was in fact why it had
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: been done, in order to and this is like very
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: business e in the in the Weeds terminology that I
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: didn't even know existed improve the film's appeal to the
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: four quadrants UM, father's Son, Holy Spirit, and women. Um.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: There but Lassater says, quote, there was an audience perception
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: that these movies were just for little girls. But when boys,
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: men whatever actually see these movies, they liked them. So
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: on Rapunzela, we changed the name and we called it Tangled.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: We did marketing that made the people who would not
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: normally show up say, hey, this looks pretty good unquote,
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: and um, the movie did do very well at the
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: box office, or at least outperformed what the Princess and
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: the Frog had taken in. And so I think that
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: this ethos was considered like, alright, cool male protagonist. I
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: went back and watched two of the official trailers for
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: this movie, and both of them make it seem like
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: Flynn Ryder is the sole protagonist of the movie and
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: the Rapunzel is barely a character based on just like
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: the screen time and the activity that both characters are
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: allotted in the trailers, and both of the trailers really
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: emphasized Finn's Flynn what is it Flynn's Flynn's swashbuckling and
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: like all of his his like he's riding horses, he's fighting,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: he's doing all this stuff that has featured far more
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: prominently than anything related to Rapunzel's story and her like
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: I have this and I want to go on that
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: is left out of the marketing, exhausting the movie. I
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: remember a similar thing happening to Mohanna, where I was
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: watching mo Wanna trailers and now he was the protagonists,
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: so which at least they were able to name the
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: movie Mohanna, Like, it does seem like and maybe it
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: was like Frozen that was able to turn this car
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: around and like having dual female protagonists being wildly successful.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: They're like, maybe we don't need to go down this
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: road of giving the love interest this outsize presence in
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: the movie. I that's my guess off the top of
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: my head of why you were allowed to name movies
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: after female protagonists. Again, it's all money. It has nothing
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: to do with you know, giving a shit about equity
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: or anything like that. Um, but um, you know, I'm
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: sure that Frozen being a billion dollar franchise contributed to that.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: But this is such a bizarre moment for Like, it
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: sucks because Rapunzel is a very cool character and I
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: don't I don't even mind that Flynn has I think
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: it it is actually like a positive adjustment for the
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: princess world that I mean, such a popular criticism of
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: Disney princesses is that the Disney princes is that they
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: have no personality and they're boring and you have no
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: idea why she would be interested in him. This movie
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: feels like a major overcorrection of that issue. I think
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: that Flynn having a personality is great. I like that
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: now and in Frozen, which is not a movie that
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: I have any love for. Really like Frozen too much better,
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: but um, you know, the love interests have or like
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: Anna's husband guy has a personality, like you at least
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 1: have some understanding of why are there at least attempting
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: to let you know why they're interested in each other.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: I think that that's important and good. There are still
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: two white hetero couples giving a man more of a personality.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: It feels like a real half step in sideways. But
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: but it's whatever the point being like, great, let's have
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: Flynn have a personality, But that doesn't mean that giving
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: him a personality means the movie should then be about him.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: Plus like especially when that personality is he's kind of
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: a dick for a large swath of the movie, right right,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: and it feels like he's like, well, it's okay that
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a dick because I'm better, and you're like, well,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: but I do feel like they try, which is also
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: a very Disney choice, and I know that that's a
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: lot of like I feel like with Rapunzel, she is
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: a very abused person, and she's still extremely kind and
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: extremely empathetic and wants to see the best in people.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: So it doesn't really play for me that it's like, well,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: Flynn grew up in an orphanage, which obviously is an
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: extremely difficult thing, but they've both had difficult childhoods. It
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: doesn't make it okay that he treats her like garbage,
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, so, which does that transition us to the
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: mother daughter relationship discussion. Let's talk about every movie's about
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: fathers and sons. Not this time, baby it's about it's
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: about mothers and daughters and Flynn Ryder. For some reason,
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: I have a spiel about this. Here we go go off,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: thank you so Disney fairy Tale, Disney fairy Tales. As
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: we've discussed, yes, as we've discussed endlessly on the podcast,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: they have a sordid history with mother daughter relationships because
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: usually the mother is dead and or there's an evil
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: stepmother situation. They don't kill the mother in this one.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: They just almost kill her. It just don't let her talk,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: They don't let her speak, and he almost dies. But
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: then they're like, but then we saved her, We saved
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: her and she's good now, and she's good and and
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: and so in this movie there is an evil foster
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: mother slash kidnapper slash captor. But because Rapunzel thinks this
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: is her real mother for most of the movie, let's
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: just call it a mother daughter relationship, even though it's
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, she was raised as Gothel's daughter exactly. Yes,
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: so we've got so let's examine Gothel for a moment.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: She is emotionally abusive, she's manipulative, she gaslights Rapunzel constantly.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: She's obviously using Rapunzel for her powers. So a Gothel
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: is dependent on Rapunzel and then has created a situation
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: where Rapunzel has no choice but to be dependent on Goffel.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: And part of this is Gothel completely isolating Rapunzel and
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: being very controlling of Rapunzel's life and what she does
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: and does not have access to. Gothel also makes insulting
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: remarks to Rapunzel that she insists our jokes and then
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: says things like stop taking everything so seriously. Gothel blames
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: her own abuse of behavior on Rapunzel and then says
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: things like you're making me the bad guy, trying to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: make Rapunzel feel guilty. So even though we do not
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: have a lot of great examples of loving, caring, non
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: toxic mother daughter relationships in movies, because most movies aren't
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: about mother daughter relationships, the relationship we see in this
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: movie is very similar to plenty of real life mother
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: daughter relationships. And I know that there are people who
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: feel very seen by this particular relationship dynamic, which is important.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: People like, regardless of their circumstances, want to feel represented
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: and seen and validated. And and I think like the
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: focus on a parent child relationship in a movie of
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: this genre that isn't uncomplicated is cool and I feel
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: like it kind of Um, I don't know, I'm trying
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: to think of other parents. Like in earlier Disney movies,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: parents are either absent, dead or you have like a
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: well meaning but ultimately harmful father whose behavior is never
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: really called out. Thinking about King Triton and Bell's goofy
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: dad who both you know, like, I don't know, maybe
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: there is like some introspection on King Triton because he
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: faces a consequence, which is his daughter bails on him.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: But all that to say, like, you don't get a
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: focus like this with mother's specifically very often and it's like,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like i'd be interested to read how
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: people feel about it, because it is, like, I don't know,
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: having a deeply narcissistic person in your life from a
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: very young age is really traumatic and like function your
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: perception of the world. And I like that going back
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: to seeing Rapunzel's like back and forth of like elation
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: and deep guilt, like that really follows, attracts, affects you. Yeah,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: like I thought that that was really um whatever. I mean,
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: it's a Disney movie. It's not subtle um, but yeah,
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: it's I'm kind of like the Mother gothel stuff is
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: tricky because I'm of two minds about it. On one end,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: I do think that representing um or like just having
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: a storyline with a child growing up with a very narcissistic,
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: manipulative parent is interesting and I do totally understand why
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: a lot of people felt seen in that. And I
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: see a different side of it where it's like, is
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: this not just another evil older woman who is being
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: demonized for wanting to be young? And it's it gets
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: tricky because it's like you should be angry at her
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: for the way she is doing it. The fact that
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: she in the same way that like you almost think
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: of like the Queen and snow White to go way
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 1: back in Disney Princess Canad where kind of a similar
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: motivation where the Queen wants no way to die because
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: she's younger and more beautiful than her. Gosthel is trapping
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel and you know, manipulating her day after day because
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: she needs her to remain appearing younger and quote unquote
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: more beautiful prevent her from aging. She's like Rapunzel is
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: like the touch Everlasting Tree of the movie. So I
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: feel like the little wrench in this is that she
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: needs to manipulate another woman in order to remain young.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: It becomes a rivalry between these two women. So so,
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: but I also feel like it's having an older woman
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: like making it seem it's it's almost like patriarchy the
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: guy kind of thing where it's like, oh, well, her
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: fixation on appearing young, that's an evil quality, and like
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: there's no introspection to like, well, what about the world
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: has made her feel that way? Because that's a very legitimate.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: Certainly in two thousand ten and also now and probably
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: for a long time, women are going to be made
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: to feel bad about aging, and they will be viewed
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: as less valuable by society for visibly aging. Like that's
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: just the factiest fact there is, unfortunately, Right, So I
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: feel similarly conflicted because again, like I think on the podcast,
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: at least, I've been guilty of seeing a toxic mother
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: daughter relationship and just kind of writing it off as like, oh, well,
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: this is two women being pinned against each other and
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: I don't like it. But and there's a lot more
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: nuance to that, because there are a lot of toxic
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: relationship dynamics in real life that absolutely many, if not most,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: people have experienced. They deserve to be explored as much
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: as positive relationships do on screen. But I just think
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: it's very pointed that this is the first one you're
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: seeing and the reason that it's toxic. I think like
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: that's where it gets a little muddled. It feels like this,
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: Like again, it's like a lot of this movie where
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: like some of it is exploring new territory and like
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: pushing forward in an interesting way, but even like the
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: attempt to do that in this movie is still like
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: hampered with these older tropes that I feel like gives
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 1: what should be something that is and I'm glad that
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: it has really worked and made a lot of people's
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: family dynamics feel validated and seen in a huge movie.
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: But it's just like, I feel like it takes away
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: from it a little bit by having it hampered by
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: those old tropes. Yeah, the main issue for me with
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: this particular aspect of the story is that we end
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: up with a pretty one dimensional female villain. I love
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: a female villain, especially if their villainy is contextualized, and
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: not that you necessarily need context for every single movie villain,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: but because this one, it does seem to be playing
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: into tropes, it would be nice to have a better
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: understanding of why Gothel is the way she is, where
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 1: she's coming from, all this stuff, especially because like this
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 1: movie has. I think it just depends on the kind
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: of movie you're watching, where sometimes it's like we're not
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: getting context for any of these characters. It's an action movie.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: We're giving the protagonist context and that's it, and that
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: at least that's like equal. But in this this movie
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: goes way out of its way to give you context
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: for Flynn, which is a subversion of this kind of movie.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: But I think that the fact that they don't. And
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: I love villainy evil villains. I love that she gets stabbed,
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 1: like great, totally fine by me. I like, you know,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: I love a villainy villain. Jigsaw is my husband, Game over,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: Game over slam r I P. But I mean and
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: talk about a contextualized villain Jigsaw, who they got whole
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: movies about it. But but I just think that if
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: this movie is trying to change some of the standard
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: mechanics of a movie like this by giving the love
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: interest context, not extending that to the villain feels pointed,
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: especially when there's so much baggage around that type of
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: character that like total crone archetype totally it would it
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: would have been nice to get some some context because otherwise, yeah,
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: it just feels like a harmful trope that we've seen
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 1: again and again. But in keeping with the Disney tradition,
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: I did really like her song. Oh it's a good one.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: I like the visuals too, is it's it's kind of
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: tied with I also really like Rapunza opening song. I
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: did like that Flynn Ryder did not get a song
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: because I didn't need it. I also, oh, first of all,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: Brad Garrett and Ron Perlman. Wow, I mean, can I
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: just say wow? Also, this movie is so aggressively white
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: it is Um. Sorry, was another thing I was going
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: to say about one of the things that this movie
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: does not subvert as far as like Disney Princess Fairytale tropes.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: The character design for Rapunzel very much. She is adhering
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: to classic Western beauty standards. She's thin, she's white, she's blonde.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: The male characters she's young, young, eighteen years old. Why
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: are there so many movies about eighteen year olds? What
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: about the movies about people double that age? Thirty six?
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: My ageit Toronte story, erupted story. Um, there's plenty of
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: those two. Anyway. My point is that all the female
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: characters are very classically beautiful, and then men get to
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: be different shapes, different shapes, different sizes, etcetera, not different colors.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: Everyone is white, which is, like, I mean, such an
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: animation trope that we've discussed a million times at this point,
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: where there's no reason that there couldn't be diversity in
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: this movie. For and I it always really like, it
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: always bugs me when the excuse for that is like, well,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: this movie takes place in European countries, so in the
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: area it was supposed to take place in, there would
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: not have been anyone who wasn't white. And it's like, um,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: he fights a horse with a sore, like with a pan,
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: we can suspend our disbelief. Clearly we are like open
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 1: to not adhering to the rules of reality. Like haven't
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: you ever seen Brandy Cinderella seven the best fantasy adaptation
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: of all time? Wow, that that movie really does I'm
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: due for a rewatch. I really love that movie so much.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: But then I'm just like, can I cry all night again?
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I just got like a really nice
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: feeling to think about Brandy Cinderella Tangled. Yeah, it is
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: not diverse in any way. The most radical statement it
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: makes on anything is that it's okay to have brown hair,
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: which is so weird. Um like kind of a shockingly
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: like nothing message, like you can have a shitty haircut,
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: sorry but I don't like Rapundl's haircut. You can have
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 1: a shitty haircut and brown hair, and you're like, well,
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 1: I've been doing that for you know, decades at this point,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: So let's let's keep it. Let's keep it pushing, all right, there,
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know, yeah, there there's no body diversity. There's
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: no diversity period. And then also, like, I think it's
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: very I read some criticism around how mother Goffel is,
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: you know, like she's tall, or she's got dark hair,
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: she has darker feature yours. Then Rapunzel and it just
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: sort of seems like, oh, the palest blondes blue aside
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: woman is going to be the best. Um, So okay,
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: we wanted to add an insert here to address something
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: that we didn't address in the original episode. A lot
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: of listeners pointed this out. Honestly, I didn't pick up
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: on it. So thank you to our wonderful listeners for
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: performing us and just helping us be as intersectional in
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: our analysis as possible. And honestly, I mean, this is
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: a trope that we have discussed before. I just we
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 1: just did not pick up on it in this particular movie,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: So right, we wanted to make sure that we were
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: acknowledging that once our listeners pointed it out, we're like,
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mean we want to sort of dig
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: into this trope a little more because, uh, it is
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: rife throughout animation, which is how has come up on
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: this show before. That is the trend in not just
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: Disney media, but children's media in general, and media on
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 1: the whole of using anti Semitic tropes in the villain
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: of the story, which is present in the character of
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: Mother Gothel in Tangled, and a listener sent us a
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: wonderful piece written by Tatum Shut from Hey Alma dot
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: com entitled why do so many Disney Villains look like me?
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: Tatum points out that Disney has a long history of
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: Jewish coding their villains, and it is very clear Entangled.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: I'll pull a quote from this piece. Quote, Mother Goszel
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: is the cinematic foil for the predictably wide eyed, button
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: nosed Rapunzel Goszel, that magnificent mirror curial whoops, didn't do
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: that word right, uh, manipulator, so miserly with her food
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: and money, so separate from the other golden haired kingdom,
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: so distinctly mothered, she so happens to be animated with
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: the curly black hair and hook nosed stereotypical to Jews.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 1: But beyond Gothel's suspicious phenotype, Tangled follows an eerily familiar
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: story blood libel and anti semitic canard that reverberates throughout
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: history accuses Jews of stealing Christian children to bake their
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: blood into Manza. I didn't even know that that like that,
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: this is like a spot in history and tropes that
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: I was not aware how deep this anti Semitic trope.
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: When same same Yeah, Tatum goes on to say it
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: was particularly prevalent in the Middle Ages, when it was
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: not uncommon for European Jews to be hunted down and
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: murdered whenever a child went missing. Jews stealing pretty Arian
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: children to sustain their dark magic unquote as the you know, perception,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: yeah went And then another thing I just didn't know
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: was Tatum shut goes on to describe and kind of
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: explicitly connect the fact at uh, you know, Disney is
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: a horrible company that is not employing this trope out
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 1: of nowhere. It is cooked into the text of Grimm's
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: Fairy Tales, which are also wildly anti Semitic, um going
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 1: so far as they cite a lesser known, thank god,
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: uh story from Grimm's Fairy Tales called the Jew in
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: the Brambles. So the brothers Grimm, we're also horrifically anti
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: Semitic themselves, and Disney instead of subverting all of the
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: things that they do in this movie, which is how
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: this movie was marketed. Instead re employs this Like you
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: cannot overstate the harm of using a trope like this,
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: and we see it in media still and so yeah,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: we really wanted to thank our listeners that sent this
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: our way. We did not pick up on it on
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: first viewing, and it is still an issue in animation.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've talked quite a bit about how Disney
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: m habitually queer codes their villains, but this is also
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: an extremely worthy discussion and where sorry we missed it
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: on the first time. Thank you to everyone who sent it. Indeed,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: especially again because you know, coding villains in a certain way,
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: queer coding them, quoting them as people of color, as
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: Disney has done in the past, um, quoting them as Jewish.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: This consciously or subconsciously influences people's perceptions of already marginalized groups.
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: It reinforces harmful stereotypes, all kinds of very nasty things,
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: to the point where like we adult media critics did
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: not pick up on it, right, So um, and my
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: guest would be like, why is this happening in a movie?
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: From as Tatum shut points out, like, yes, it is
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: baked into the source material, but why is this but
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: like fling Ryder is not, you know, there's there's no
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: excuse for it. Honestly, my guests would be I mean,
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: Walt Disney was notoriously anti Semitic, and he probably had
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 1: a hand in coding early Disney villains as Jewish. And
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: since most animated Disney films follow the same formula, they
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: have a very distinct visual style. All the you know,
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: princesses are kind of molded after a very specific, you know,
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: Western beauty standard phenotype. All of the villains are modeled
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: after like another very specific design. Like earlier Disney movies
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: just reused animation from previous movies. It's just like the
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: same movie basically over and over over and over and over.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: And yeah, it's like by the time Tangled came out,
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: what is the when is the last time this company
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: sat down and said, well, what have we harmed that
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 1: we need to scale back? So so thank you again,
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: and um yeah we wanted to include that um in
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: this insert, So thanks again everyone, And back to the episode.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: He's got dark hair, she has darker features than Rapunzel,
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: and it just sort of seems like, Oh, the palest,
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: blondest bluicide woman is going to be the best. She
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: can get a chitty haircut later, but she you know,
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: she's got to have blonde hair for most of the movie.
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: And then Flynn Ryder bravely legs women with brown hair fine, like,
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: oh wow, what an ally? What a king? Just like,
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: so bring in jig Saw. I'm ready to die that
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: do do do? Al So, I don't think the Saw
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: episode has come out yet on the Matreon, but matrons
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: give it like four days. And then I think we
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: really like not to freak anyone out, but I think
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: that we had a really special month over in the Matreon,
• 1:36:47
  Speaker 1: our most chaotic episode to date, and then Saw. We're um, Caitlin,
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: we need to plan this offline, but that screening of
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 1: Saw is coming up, and they're still time for us
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: to get Jigsaw cosplay, right, do do do do? Do?
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: Do do do do do? I think that because it is
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: a four thirty screening, that there will be no one
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: costplaying except for us, and it will be like that
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 1: amazing tweet about the Baba Duck where everyone else is
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: just enjoying themselves and then we're addressed as to Jigsaw perfect.
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have any other way anyway. Do you have
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: anything else you want to talk about? I wanted to
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: share one more quote about specifically this movie's preoccupation with
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: blonde hair. The link to this original story is unfortunately
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: no longer working, but it was quoted in a Miss
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 1: magazine piece from the time. The writer being quoted is
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 1: only credited as Renee Um, but Renee of Womanist Musings.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: And she's talking about the you know I mean, and
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 1: this is technically Rapunzel canon I guess like not that
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: Rapunzel has to be canonically blonde or white or anything like.
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: So she writes quote as a black woman, I know
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: all too well how complicated the issue of hair can be.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: Looking at the image of Tangled Rapunzel, I found that
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: I could not see beyond her long blond hair and
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 1: blue eyes. I believe that this will also become the
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 1: focal point of many girls of color. The standard of long,
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 1: flowing blonde hair as the epitome of femininity necessarily excludes
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: and challenges the idea that women of color are feminine
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: and desired, and therefore, while Disney is creating an image
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: of Rapunzel that we are accustomed to. Her rebirth in
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 1: a modern day context is problematic because her body represents
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: the celebration of white femininity. The fact that Tangled is
• 1:38:48
  Speaker 1: coming on the heels of the first African American Disney
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 1: princess is indeed problematic. It makes Princess Tiana seemed like
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: an impotent token, with Rapunzel appearing to reset the standard
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: of what princess means and even more precise Slee what
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: womanhood means unquote. Um again, I mean, we do have
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: a whole episode on the princess and the frog that
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: you can go back to. But a big issue that
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of people had but that movie, and that
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: we did as well, is that Disney's first black princess
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: spends most of the movie as a frog. And so
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 1: you while Tiana is their first black Disney princess, she
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 1: is also not celebrated to the extent that any other
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: Disney princess is. So I I yeah, I just wanted
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 1: to share that as well, because again, this is a
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 1: Disney fantasy movie. Rapunzel didn't need to be white and
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: blonde and skinny. It just didn't need to be that way.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, so most people have hair that could become long.
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: That is so brave of you to say not everyone.
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be making sweeping generalizations. No, but
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, I I get. I think that truly. The
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: only absolute must with Rapunzel's character is she's got to
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: have long hair. The end of list, like kind of
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 1: end of qualifications. Everything else about her is malleable. The
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 1: only thing that is absolutely important to the character is
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: that she has long hair, and she's going to be
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: trapped in a tower. So there you go. She could
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: also be wearing a wig or extensions. We don't know.
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: We don't know. Can you imagine that if Nicole Kidman
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: played Rapunzel, what kind of wig she would be bringing
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: to set? Oh? My word, Oh my word. Okay, Well, anyways, Um,
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: that's all I have. I wanted to share that quote
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 1: and that I think. That's that's all I've got. So
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 1: shall we get to the matter at hand the test? Yes,
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: it does, but I think only between Rapunzel and Gossl Yes,
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: because this movie, I think again, in this overcorrection, like
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: the boys won't see a princess movie like Panic, This
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 1: movie is front loaded with a million extra male characters,
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: some of them I like, some of them that I don't.
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 1: We got too much Flynn. Flynn's animal has a huge
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: arc tournament to glue, don't care. We have the gallery
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: of rogues that all want to be musicians in my
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 1: and I kind of like them, but they are all
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: men and they didn't have to all be men. Nope,
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 1: why can't we have some some women rogues that are
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: give Punzela of a female friend. Let's get some envy
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: rogues in the mix. All these the only qualification for
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 1: a rogue, They're going to be rogue ish. Yeah, so
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 1: so you really only do get two women I think
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: talking in the whole movie, because Rapunzel's parents are not talking.
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: I think that her dad at one point goes yeah,
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: but the queen says none of things. Zippo. Damn as
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: far as our nipple scale, which is the golden standard.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: Speaking of golden hair, I see you're not going to
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: have a reaction to that. Okay, Sorry, I was looking
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: at a picture of Zachary Levi. Is that embarrassing? Wow? Okay, sorry,
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: I did zone up for a second because I was
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: looking at Zacharily Levi's Wikipedia page. Okay, kill me. So no,
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: I was trying to it again. Wait, what did you?
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: Can you do it again? It's not worth repeating because
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: it's not even a good joke. I just said I
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: said it was like, and I also phrased it wrong.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: I should have said, like speaking of golden hair. The
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: golden standard of movie analysis scales manipple scale. Meanwhile, I'm
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: being here looking at pictures of merne in on Wikipedia board,
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: I know, setting the clock back yet again. Um okay, yes,
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: I do agree. This is the golden standards. Yes, thank
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: you so much. The golden shio. Wow, what is that?
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: The golden ratio is a specific number. I forget what
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: it is, but it shows up a lot in nature,
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: like a snail's shell has the golden ratio. Oh yes,
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: and it's like and and and like conscious and ship.
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 1: That's fine, et cetera. Leaves shout out nature, you know. Anyway,
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: So the nipples scale zero to five nipples based on
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm
• 1:43:37
  Speaker 1: tempted to just sort of and I know this feels
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: like cheating, but I kind of want to give it
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: like a split down the middle at two point five.
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: I do think it is pushing the needle forward by
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: a little bit as far as Disney Princess Fairytale movies go,
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: because it is supporting some of the harmful tropes we've
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: seen of the past, especially because when I think of
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: Damsel and Distress, my go to person that I think
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: of is Sleeping Beauty and Rapunzel. Yeah, and I didn't
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: even the only thing I knew about, like the Rapunzel story,
• 1:44:14
  Speaker 1: because I've never read the Grimm's Brothers fairy tale. Fuck
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: had to like look on Wikipedia to see what the
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: actual story was because the only thing I knew was
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 1: that there's a lady with long hair in a tower
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: and a prince climbs her hair to save her, like
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 1: very very classic Damsel in Distress narrative. So because this movie,
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: you know, takes that premise, but then gives her a
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 1: lot more agency, lets her save herself, lets her save Flynn.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 1: I keep saying, whatever his name is, Flynn, probably except
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 1: it's Eugene. I forgot to mention that in the recap.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: But his real name is Eugene. Who cares Flynn, She
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: saves him, she saves herself. She has far more agency
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: than your classic Damsel in distres us character. But there's
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: all these other things as we've discussed that, you know,
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: don't push the needle as far ahead as we would
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 1: have liked. But it is kind of like a stepping
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: stone movie. I feel yes paves the way for Mowanna,
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: for example. So with that in mind, I'll give it
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: two and a half nipples, and I'll give one to Rapunzel.
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: Love her Punzel. I think a lot of her Punzel.
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: I mean this, I love her character, but a lot
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 1: of it is just like, Wow, Mandy Moore, she's special.
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 1: I feel like she's even though she just was on
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: the most famous TV show for like ten years and
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: I never watched it. I feel like she's still underrated.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: I love Mandy Moore. Yeah, I agree. Um, I'll give
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: one nipple two to Gothel because I feel like she
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: is potentially misunderstood. Slash. I love a female villain, Slash.
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: I wish she had been more contextualized. Slash. There was
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 1: just like things about her character that I didn't even
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: need to contextualize her in a way that made her
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: seem nicer. You had to give us something, right, although
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 1: maybe people will be like you don't it's a fairy tale.
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: Villains are just evil for the sake of being evil.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I still it's just I feel complicated
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: and I feel like I'll still be My feelings about
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: this will like continue evolving as we examine similar relationship dynamics. Yes,
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: point is I would have liked more for for her character. Yes,
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: my half nipple, I will give to the Paula Tompkins,
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: little old guy who wears a paper and looks like
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: a little cupid with a bone arrow at the end
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: of the movie, shout out as always, friend Paul. He's
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: the best best rogue in the gallery as far as
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: I'm concerned. And when we had Brad Garrett in there,
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 1: okay there, Caitlin. I before I give you my rating,
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: I did just want to say I just sent you
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: the first look at one of the two dueling Pinocchio movies,
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: and it looks so bad. It looks so ugly. Gary.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: They've they made him look way too much like the
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: Disney animated Pinocchio. It looks like a Robot Chicken sketch.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: It literally looks like robot Chicken. And I mean, and
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: as a former employee, I love robot Chicken. But that's
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: like this, this has like a billion dollar budget. Why
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: does it look like that? Why does it look like that?
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 1: And for more on that, you can go to the
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: Matreon in November for our month that we've already roped
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: off to be the dueling Pinocchio's month, del Toro Versus Zamackis.
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 1: Do we already know who's going to win? Obviously, Robert Zameckis,
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know what something happened, something happened that that happened,
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: and he's something a which put a curse on him
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: and now he's really bad at his job. But um, anyways,
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: that didn't happen to Del Toro. All right, I'm going
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: to give it two and a half nipples as well.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: I think that this movie pushes some boundaries an interesting ways.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: I think that it like actually kind of regresses the
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: princess genre in certain ways by giving Flynn so much agency.
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: I think that you could accomplish the same thing by
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: having Rapunzel. She should cut off rapunzelan action hero, she
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: should cut off her own hair. But also it's like,
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: did Princess Fiona not learn like Karate well trapped in
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: the tower? Yes, Like, I think that there were ways
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 1: to even if you're going to have Flynn be a
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: bigger character. Okay, but like you know, there are ways
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: to make Rapunzel more of an action character. If you
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 1: worry that there are demographics that aren't going to be
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: interested in a princess movie where the princess is not
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 1: action e make the princess even more actionally. I think
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: that they went partially that way with Rapunzel, but they
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: would always fall back on like Flynn had to be
• 1:48:51
  Speaker 1: validating that she was good at combat. He had to
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: validate that a pan was a decent weapon like he
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: and he's the swashbuckler. Why couldn't have she been? She? Yeah,
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: she had all the time in the world to learn
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: swashbuck I mean, it's like, and we can go back
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: and forth on that because I was like, she couldn't
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: have technically, but like whatever, Princess Fiona did it. Okay,
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 1: not to pin two women's again against each other again
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 1: two women? Okay, this has to be over. Okay, but
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: I did like the movie. I think it's really sweet.
• 1:49:20
  Speaker 1: I would kill off the horse, so horse isn't getting
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: any nipples from me, that's for damn sure. Like how
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 1: your solution is kill the horse, not just like right
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: him out of the story. No, I think he should
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: fall off a cliff. In the first two minutes. He
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: does fall out of a very high up tree, but
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: somehow survives. But he's fine. I was watching some horses yesterday.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: Don't ask as well. I was just spying on a
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: little ranch and I was watching some horses rough housing
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 1: and it was honestly very scary. I'm becoming a horse
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: girl and thinking about taking a horse lessons, so of
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: course I'm going to be observing horses. Wow. I did
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: see the movie Nope recently, so it's a big year
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: for horaces. I can't explain why, but something is going on.
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: Horses are back in a big way. Um. I saw
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: Nope for the second time yesterday and I was like,
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: exactly exactly, horses they're back. They're back, Um, but not
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 1: this one. This one should die. Um. I do not
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: share this feeling, but go on. I'm pro horse. I'm
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: anti Maximus having a whole ass arc when Rapunzel doesn't
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: even get to kill the villain. Hello, Mr, So okay,
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 1: one nipple to Rapunzel. I'm also going to give one
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: nipple to Gothel because she's a solid villain and I
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: think that there should have been a little more done
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 1: with her. If we're gonna flesh out trophy characters, let's
• 1:50:43
  Speaker 1: flesh them all out. Don't go halfway, And I'll give
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: my last half nipple to what was the chameleon's name, Pascal.
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: I loved Pascal, um, so I'm gonna give it to him.
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 1: And oh last thing. Obviously this movie not obviously, but
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: you could guess that this movie was written and directed
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: by men. Men, men, men, men, men, so many men. Um. However,
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: one of the there's two male directors, as there usually
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: is on animated movies, UM, but one of them, Byron Howard,
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: is an openly gay man. UM. He has been out
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: for many years, which is pretty huge in the entertainment
• 1:51:25
  Speaker 1: industry of that time in general, and also in animation
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 1: as well, because animation is double prejudiced in a lot
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: of ways. I don't know why, but I know it's true.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: And he also would go on to direct Zootopia and
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: um Encanto, which we will be covering on this show
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 1: rather soon. UM. So you know there's that. Also Dan Fogelman,
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: who wrote the screenplay and I think had a hand
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: in UM casting. Mandy Moore later created This is Us,
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: which Maddie Moore is the leader. So without Tangled, we
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: wouldn't have that really famous show I've never watched. Wow,
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 1: the same makes you think in conclusion, this movie is
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: pretty good. I think if you're just watching it to
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 1: watch a movie, I really like it, Like it's a
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: fun rob of a movie. If you're watching it for
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: factal cast purposes, it's a real mixed bag. But as
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 1: a movie, I think it's really fun and I would
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 1: probably watch I think I will watch it again. Same. Yeah,
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 1: I concur so here we are ruining another movie. It's
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: kind of our thing. But also if you like it
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: and you just want to watch it for fun, that's
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: in the future. UM. So that's Tangled. We hope that
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: everyone who's been requesting it for over half a decade,
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: UM is happy. I hope you're happy. I've actually kind
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: of probably waited to do it because I feel like
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: we are we are, we now have better you're better equipped. Yeah.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: I could see a twenty seventeen version of this episode that,
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: UM I would stand Yeah totally. So, as always, thank
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: you for listening. We really hope you enjoyed this. Um,
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: we've got an exciting let's say rogues gallery of movies
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: and guests coming up in the fall. We're sort of
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: laying out our fall schedule and it's exciting. You're gonna
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: be smiling, laughing, crying, learning, gasp. Also very soon on
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: the Matreon that saw episode that we kept hinting at,
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: So damn scoot on over there too, Patreon dot com
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: slash specktel Cat. I think we are kind of in
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: our golden era of the Matreon right now. Um, we're
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: really turning out some bangers I mean here, and they're good.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: Golden hair, golden standard, Golden era boom. Look forward to
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: the Pinocchio Wars over there and all of your favorite
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: movies and past over here on the main feed. Thank
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening. You can catch us on
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: the worldwide web on Instagram and Twitter at Bechtel Cast. Um.
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: As Caitlin just said, you can join our Matreon five
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: bucks a month for to bonus episodes and a backlog
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: of over one hundred episodes. Hello, wow, impressive much Now
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 1: that's what I call content. Um that's five bucks a
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 1: month over at Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. And
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: then of course you've got our merch at t public
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: dot com. Slash the Bechtel cast, where you can get
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 1: such classics as wet scabs or dry scaps. I mean
• 1:54:44
  Speaker 1: team Beetle Juice. Need we say more? And maybe and
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: and we I this fall, I am going to be
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: making some new merch designs for the holiday season. Not
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 1: holiday themes, but for you to purchase for the holiday season.
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: And so you know, the wheels are turning in income. Um,
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: that's my idea. Maybe think about that. Uh as far
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: as I've gotten um, but you know, mensa, we'll come
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: up with something. I have a master's degree. We we
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 1: we got this, mensa, master's degree. It's gonna it's gonna
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: come together. Um, okay, A game over, you know, Oh
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: my gosh, okay, not that, not that Tangled isn't a
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: great movie, But no movie ends better than Saw One
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 1: Game Over, Sam, Bye bye bye