Latest / Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment) / The Power of Active Listening: From Police Interrogations to Music Mastery

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The Power of Active Listening: From Police Interrogations to Music Mastery · Murders to Music: Crime Scene to Music Scene (Streamline Events and Entertainment)

• 0:25
  Speaker 1: So this is a bonus episode.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's not a normal release, it's not even Saturday, but have you ever wondered how people walk in to a police interview room and tell everything?
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: They actually tell the truth.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: They confess to terrible things.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Have you ever wondered how and why that happens, or how that might relate to you in your everyday life, being a listener and a friend?
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Stick around for this bonus episode of the Murders to Music podcast.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Well, what is going on?
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Everybody?
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming back to Murders to Music for another week of fun-filled facts.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: So here we are.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Tonight we're going to talk about the art of listening.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the art of listening in two senses.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: This is a Murders to Music show, so we're going to talk about it in the career side of things and a little bit on our interviews.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: And I'm not going to give away trade secrets, but I am going to talk to you about what I did as an interviewer in homicide investigations.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk to you about what I did in child abuse investigations and everything else that I did over the years and how I had such great success in my suspect witness victim interviews.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: But then we're going to talk about the art of listening when it comes to music and the role that listening can play in a music setting, whether you are behind a mixing console for live sound or recording, or whether you're on stage as one of the musicians.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: There is a nexus there between the two.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: But before we even get to those two, stick around if you want to hear about that.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: But before we even get to those two, let's talk about listening in everyday life.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I think we can all relate to the situation where somebody's telling us a story.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Maybe you're involved, or maybe you're just a witness to this.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Somebody's telling a story and they're into the details and the other person in that conversation cuts them off.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, guess what happened to me?
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Well, I was blah, blah, blah and they go.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Or the person telling the story and you can tell the other person is completely checked out, not listening.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Checked out, not listening.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And as soon as the person gets done, speaking person number two jumps right in and tells their story.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: That has some kind of similar parallels.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I think that that is a natural thing to do in everyday life.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe you're that person that cuts everybody off.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe you seem like.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe you feel like you're the person that always gets cut off, everybody off.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Maybe you seem like, maybe you feel like you're the person that always gets cut off, but what's going on is, as somebody is telling a story in our mind, we're obviously recognizing points or parallels in our own world that we want to share or compare to, whatever the first person is saying.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: As we're having those thoughts, oh, I want to tell them about this.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: This is your inside voice talking.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, I want to tell them about this.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: Well, if I tell them about that, yeah, that's how it's connected.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: I want water skiing too, but then there was this time and then we ended up back at the campfire and the campfire ended up there and then somebody got burned, but then nobody really got burned, but somebody thought somebody got burned and going down the road, right, and then what we got talking about this, and then we went on a hike the next day.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: It was so beautiful, we saw the mountain lion.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Well, really, you're too busy thinking and not busy enough listening.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: While you guys were both talking about water skiing in the beginning, their story goes in a direction where somebody got hurt and drowned.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Your story goes off in a direction where you saw a beautiful mountain lion on a great hike the next day.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: They started off in the same place but they went to two very drastic endpoints and I think that it's a very, very slippery slope when we get into a situation where we're not busy enough listening to the person and we're too busy thinking about how we want to share or compare our stories.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we share and compare for attention.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: It's attention seeking behavior.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Sometimes we share and compare just because we think this person cares.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: You really never know where that person is coming from, where their heart is or what the true message is that they're trying to say.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Because in my experience the things that mean the most about a story or a timeline of events or a set of circumstances somebody's relaying is not what is said but what is not said.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: It is the nonverbal body language that goes with the story.
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: It's the tears in the eyes that somebody might be showing or displaying during a certain part of the story.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: The story may not be sad to you at all, but if you're busy enough watching and actively listening to that person, you may see little micro emotions that they give off or tells that they give or pauses they have in their speech patterns.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: That may indicate to you there's more there, there's something just below the surface on this, may indicate to you there's more there, there's something just below the surface on this.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And I think, as a good human being and as a good friend, we owe it to each other to listen and to ask and maybe dig just a little bit into that story or ask a clarifying question.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Well, tell me, tell me what happened when you guys got back to the camp Circle, back to that Hear, what it is that they have to say.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe the whole reason they're talking to you is because they have something bigger to get off their chest, or maybe a detail they want you to ask about, because they want to be noticed or recognized for something heroic or good that they did, or fun that they did, or something they're excited about.
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: But if we're too busy thinking about ourselves, we're never going to active listen with our friends and or our coworkers or our interviewees or whoever else it may be.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: We're never going to get to a place where we can actually learn more and scratch and dig for what is below the surface In the law enforcement world.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: It's very, very similar when I stepped into an interview room with a child abuse suspect or a murderer or whatever it may be.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: It's very important to strip off the emotions that surround whatever those circumstances are.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Even if it triggers you, even if it reminds you of something, even if you have just been on the most you know horrific call and you know this person is responsible, you still have to strip off that emotional baggage that you carry with you because of your life circumstances or personal experiences, whatever it may be that's weighing you down, that where you have a strong emotional reaction to the circumstances in front of you, you need to strip that off.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: Or I needed to strip that off.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: I keep saying you, I mean me.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I needed to strip that off before I went into the interview room because if I go into the interview room weighed, if I go into the interview room weighed down with all those bags, a couple of things are going to happen.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: That person is going to know that I'm judging them right off the bat.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Well, how can you not judge a child molester or murderer, you might ask.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: It's not our job to judge.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: It's my job to find the facts, hear all the sides of the story, put the pieces of the puzzle together and report things factually.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: It's my job to see if what they're saying matches the physical evidence.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the physical evidence can prove if they're lying or not.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the physical evidence can show one thing and on initial observation it appears to everybody in the room that this person is responsible for whatever and it's likely a crime.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: But the more questions you ask, digging just below the surface, like I spoke about, you might find that this is not a criminal offense.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's a self-defense, maybe the physical evidence you see or the witness statements that you have are not accurate and they don't truly reflect the totality of the circumstances revolving around whatever happened that day.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: So you have to strip off that emotional baggage.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: If you go in there with it, there's a very good chance that you'll be biased.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: You'll be biased and you'll be looking for and you will be finding things in their statements or in their interviews that will sway your judgment and potentially even sway the way you write a report or sway the way that you tell that story.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: But not everything is as it seems.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: So I had to strip off that emotional baggage and I had to dehumanize the badge a little bit.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: What I mean by that is when you go into, when I go into that interview, I treated these people like human beings and I explained to them I wasn't born with a badge on and I explained to them I wasn't born with a badge on.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: I have made mistakes in my life.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: I have done things that are skeletons in my closet, that I'm never going to tell anybody about.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Even when we have something we get in the middle of that we may have to eat crow on, or we've done something wrong and we have to tell about it.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: We still, as human beings, hold on to special little nuggets.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Something wrong?
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: We have to tell about it.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: We still, as human beings, hold on to special little nuggets regarding that and we don't tell anybody.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Those are little secrets that only we know, 100% of the truth.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: So when I go into that interview room, I would often tell them you know, I'm not perfect.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I have secrets.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I have skeletons in my closet.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: The unfortunate thing is we have to talk about yours and I get to keep mine in the closet for another day.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: So, uh, go through, build a little rapport with them.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: It talked to them.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I would talk to them and just let them know that, uh, I'm here to hear what they have to say.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: You know right, wrong or indifferent, and I think there's a couple of ways.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell all the trade secrets, but there's a few ways you know, right, wrong or indifferent.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: And I think there's a couple of ways I'm not going to tell all the trade secrets, but there's a few ways.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: You know that I personally would break down barriers.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I don't mind eating and drinking with my people.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I don't care who they are.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: We're human beings.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: We deserve to eat and drink.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: It also helps me judge kind of where they're at psychologically.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Do they have an appetite?
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Do they not have an appetite?
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: I would often talk about my people, maybe not my family, but maybe my career, something personal that I would connect with them, that I felt they could relate to, and that would also help draw out some conversation.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: All of these things are just ways of being a good human, whether you're in that interview room or you're in a relationship with a group of friends at church.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: What I'm doing in the interview room is no different than what you can do in the context of your own world.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Just be a good human, get below the surface, get to know somebody, build a relationship, build a rapport.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: We do this every single day.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: We can do it with strangers we could literally walk into Starbucks.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: I used to teach an interview class and I would give my students a $10 Starbucks gift card and I would say go buy a stranger a coffee and have a conversation with them.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: See what the most intimate thing is.
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: You can get to know about this person.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: How deep can you go with this person?
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes people would come back from this little exercise and they would know about their divorce, they'd know about their sex life, they would know about their kids, and then you'd have the people come back and be like I couldn't find anybody to talk to.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: That kind of was a good way to judge how these people are going to be as far as interviewers go.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Or are they listeners?
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Or they'll come back and say I couldn't find.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: I found a guy to talk to, but I just told him about, you know, my kids, and my kids were going to this school and that school.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Well, you're a talker, not a listener.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: So it's a very good way, because in my world, when I would step into that interview room, it's no different than the stranger I might meet at Starbucks.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: But now I have to start talking about intimacy and sex or a murder they committed or something they did offensive to a child and you need to be able to overcome that psychological barrier that stands between law enforcement and a criminal act, somehow in their mind, dissolve that so you can cross those lines and get good information.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Good information in a confession is no good without substantiated evidence so they can tell you the world.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: But then it was my job to go back and make sure they could put the pieces of that puzzle together.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: That being said, you're talking to that group of friends and you got somebody telling this outlandish story.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: A story is a story.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Find witnesses, you know, find things to back it up and that'll help you judge that person's character.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: So I do the same thing.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: That's the art of listening.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: The art of listening is what is not being said, the holes in the story or the over or excessive details in a story.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: That is where the truth lies.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: So when I would be doing interviews, I would be listening for the holes where they jump from one point to another, and then I'd want to go back and exploit and talk about that period of time that they skipped over.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And oftentimes that's where we would find a criminal element or intimate details of the circumstances that we're talking about.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Because, just like I was talking about me and my skeletons, in my closet I have little nuggets I hold on to.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: Those are little nuggets they're trying to hold on to that would shed light on potentially incriminate or bear witness to whatever the circumstances were.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: So you got to go back and exploit those a little bit and ask about them.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: So I would often find that through the interview process I would be able to break down those psychological barriers talk to them, relate to them as a human being, cry with them, pray with them, laugh with them, break bread with them, to the point where they trusted me enough just to tell me what happened or what occurred or what they saw, so on and so forth.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: That allowed for a successful career of interviewing.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: That allowed me to take the information they're giving me, relate it back to the facts that we have, the evidence that we have, and see if their story makes sense or not.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Not everybody told you the truth the first time, or told me the truth the first time.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: So we'd have to go back and sometimes challenge some of the points because they're trying to hold on to those nuggets.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: However, if you've treated them like a human being, if you have listened to them at the church group and they know that you're a good listener.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: They're more willing to talk to you and share those things with you.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: So that is my secret to success in an interview world.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Treat them like humans.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Listen active, listen to what's not said, exploit those things.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day I would still leave them with little nuggets of information.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: I would leave them with little things that they could hold on to.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't drag everything out of them, because I know that somewhere inside they want to hold on to some of those little pieces, of those little pieces.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: How does this relate to music?
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: In a musician's world, we are a bunch of musicians who come together.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Everybody is proud of their craft, proud of what they've done, and they hold that, they covet that Much, like a murderer might be proud of or might be scared to reveal what they have done.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: They covet that information.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: When we come into the music world and we all come together the first thing if you've ever been in a band when a band forms or comes together, there's often egos.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: There's often professional I'll put this in air quotes professional musicians that think they're better than everybody and they bring a lot of baggage to the table, just like the baggage I brought and had to leave outside that interview room door.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: They bring it into that band environment environment.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: So over the years, my ability to work with people on the law enforcement side and in the interviews et cetera helped me relate to people in a music world because I understood psychologically what they were bringing to the table and why they were doing it, maybe why they were acting the way they were acting or saying what they were saying.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: So, breaking down the music side of things, you all get together and you play and you have to break down those egos or understand why the people may be acting the way they are.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: But then once you get to a cohesive group and now you're playing together, active listening.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Active listening in a music environment is not listening for necessarily what is being said because it's musical.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: You're listening for your parts and your pieces and your places.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: Have you ever heard a drummer that everything they do is a drum solo?
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Or a guitar player that's turned up to 11.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: That are the things that you want to avoid in a music setting.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: You want to be an active listener.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Imagine it as a pie.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Everybody has a piece of the pie, but you shouldn't be stacking things on top of each other.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: You should have some space, some room.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: So each slice of that pie that you're putting back into that pie tin all has its very specific space that it goes and its part.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: That it goes in that way the music can breathe, is not being the center of attention.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: It's listening to all the other parts that are going on around you and finding out where you fit in to move the needle forward in the right direction.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: Otherwise you just have noise In a mixing world.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Now we'll talk about mixing in another episode where I'm going to go into it with a lot of examples.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: But in a mixing world let's just talk about front of house mixing.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Active listening is also helped there.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: When you're mixing, it's your job as a front of house mixer to or front of house engineer, sorry to balance all of the sounds so the guitar is not too loud, or the bass drum isn't too loud, or the bass guitar isn't too soft.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: It's to balance and mix everything.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: But then it's also to active listen to the song that's in front of you so you can embellish or bring parts up when need be.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: When the guitar player does a solo, you can bring that solo up so it can be heard and then you bring that solo back down.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Or if the vocals need to be on top of the mix so you can hear the lyrics of what people are singing and is not buried underneath the rumble of the bass guitar or the hum of the rhythm guitar.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: So that is active listening.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: When it comes to a sound environment or a music front-of-house engineering environment, it's very, very important that you do that because if not everybody listening is going to hear, if you don't active mix, everybody listening is going to be struggling to hear the guitar, struggling to hear the vocals.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: It's going to sound like a muddy mess of sound and noise and they're never going to be able to differentiate any of the instruments that are on stage or anything that's going on or, frankly, understand what the melody of the song is supposed to be Bouncing back to law enforcement.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: If you don't take the time to active listen in that interview room, strip off your baggage and be a part of the conversation, then you're going to miss all of the elements, you're going to miss the parts and pieces that are important, you're going to miss those nuggets they're trying to hide and, at the end of the day, you're not going to be able to tell heads or tails as to what really occurred during the particular set of circumstances.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Going back to your church group, if you are too busy thinking about yourself, too busy not engaging and giving your friends your actual attention and time, not engaging and giving your friends your actual attention and time, at the end of the day, you're not going to have any idea that their story went from water skiing to a tragic accident while you're preparing to tell them about seeing a mountain lion on the most beautiful hike you've ever been on.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Those two things don't align, they're out of alignment and you've missed the point of the conversation.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: So, in a nutshell, active listening Super important.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Do your part.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: The whole reason for this episode or this conversation is because of how many times I've been asked over the years.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: You know how do you get somebody to talk, how do you get them to tell you what occurred?
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Oftentimes, what they tell you or would tell me would match up with the physical evidence or the facts that we already knew, and this would be them telling me, not me leading them, and that is the way that it would occur.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: So I'm just answering a question that people have asked.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Break down the walls and barriers, treat them like human beings.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: We're all children of God that come to the table flawed.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: We're a flawed species.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: You're not any better.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: I'm not any better than them, and we just have to come together as two humans having a conversation, and it's amazing what that can do at the church group.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Come together as two humans having a conversation, and it's amazing what that can do At the church group.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Come together as two humans having a conversation relating to each other and truly listening to what the other person is saying.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Listen to what is not being said.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Realize there may be a reason for that.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Dig a little bit deeper.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Get under that surface.
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: Music If you're a musician, listen to what's going on around you.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Listen to the other parts and pieces of the band.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: Listen to how things are supposed to sound and do your part to fit in.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Don't turn up to 11.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Don't have a drum solo every measure.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Nobody cares about what you can do.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Nobody cares about how fast you can roll down the drums.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Be a cohesive part of the team.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: If you are listening to this from a front-of-house engineering point of view, active, listen, take your hands out of your pockets.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Listen to what's going on on stage.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: You've heard enough music in your life and if you haven't, you might not need to be behind the front of house booth.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Listen to what's going on.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Active listen, elevate and embellish where you need to Bring it back down.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Make sure that everything sounds good and that you're doing your best.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: We're not out here to do it for a show.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: We're not here to do it for attention.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Look at me.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: We're not on stage as a look at me.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: We're on stage to make music.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: We're behind a booth to make beautiful sound.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: We're in the interview room to be neutral and find the facts, and you're in that church group to be human beings and find relationships.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: At the end of the day, this is all relationships, relationships in real life, relationships for me in that interview room, relationships on stage, in the music world.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: So that is active listening.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: If you guys have any questions, feel free to reach out.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: If there's any topics you want to hear about, please let me know.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Aaron at StreamlineEventsLLCcom or Aaron at StreamlineDJcom, happy to help you guys out.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: However, I can and talk about anything that you guys want to talk about.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much and we'll see you next time.