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Deborah Read: Your Next Chapter Might Be Your Best One · #WisdomOfWomen Show

• 0:00
  Welcome to the Wisdom of Women show.
• 0:02
  We are dedicated to amplifying the voice of women in business.
• 0:07
  A new model of leadership is emerging and we are here to amplify the voices of women leading the way.
• 0:13
  I am your host, Coco Salman, five time founder, impact investor and creator of the Force for Good system.
• 0:20
  Thank you for joining us today as we illuminate the path to unlocking opportunities and prosperity for women led enterprises by amplifying the voice and wisdom of women.
• 0:32
  Today, we have an Emmy crowned story weaver in our midst.
• 0:38
  Deborah Reed is an Emmy award winning television producer, director and creative executive whose two plus decades behind the camera have shaped some of entertainment's most watched franchises.
• 0:55
  The Bachelor, the Real Housewives and the Golden Bachelor.
• 1:00
  Alongside live spectacles like the Oscars, the Emmys and the Grammy Awards, she has led teams that range from small field crews to productions of hundreds, steering multimillion dollar budgets, filmed across six continents and earned recognition from the NAACP
• 1:20
  Image Awards, the Critics Choice Awards and the Emmys.
• 1:24
  Beyond the marquee credits, Deborah has mastered the craft every founder needs most.
• 1:31
  Storytelling that makes audiences feel something and original formats that buyers actually want.
• 1:39
  So now the creator and host of over 50 sages of great and a first time mother.
• 1:45
  At 53, she champions bold reinvention and proves that the second act can become the most powerful chapter of a woman's life.
• 1:55
  Welcome.
• 1:56
  So happy to have you, Deborah.
• 1:58
  So happy to be here.
• 1:59
  Coco, what is a book written by.
• 2:02
  A woman that has significantly influenced your life?
• 2:07
  Obviously many female writers have influenced me, but being in the creative field, I will say one book that really has stuck with me and I go back to time and time again is Big Magic by Liz Gilbert, which
• 2:21
  I'm not sure if you've read it, but it's fantastic.
• 2:23
  So it has a podcast where she did an entire, I think it was a 10 episode arc where she took a person through each episode and then talked about in parallel to the book.
• 2:35
  And it's really great.
• 2:36
  I think it's one of her best works.
• 2:38
  I love Big Magic too, but I have not heard this.
• 2:42
  Oh, the podcast is so good.
• 2:44
  Yeah, she only did one season but they're just great.
• 2:47
  She's really great at interviewing and the people are very honest about their creative journeys and the things that were in their like sort of their roadblocks and she was actually quite great at coaching them.
• 2:58
  I love it.
• 2:59
  Big Magic is such a great recommendation for anybody who's creative, anybody who's a founder.
• 3:04
  It really, I couldn't put it down.
• 3:06
  Really good stuff.
• 3:07
  Because that's the interesting thing about creativity and is, you know, people assume that creativity means writing, singing, dancing, acting.
• 3:16
  But like, creativity is a part, for me, is a everyday part of your life.
• 3:21
  And as a founder and a creator, you are using your creativity all the time.
• 3:27
  So I do think it is a skill that anybody in any discipline can really benefit from.
• 3:32
  Totally.
• 3:33
  I mean, I have always felt like I'm super creative as an entrepreneur.
• 3:37
  Like, I'm not really much for singing or, you know, drawing or anything like that, but.
• 3:44
  Right.
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  My husband's a wonderful music writer and a musician, but, like, I don't have that kind of creativity.
• 3:51
  But I feel like we paint in different ways.
• 3:55
  Definitely.
• 3:56
  So one of the things I like to do with our guests is find out about three moments.
• 4:02
  Three moments in your life that have shaped the person that you have become.
• 4:08
  So three moments, maybe something when you were younger or when you were a child, something that might have been challenging or something where something went right.
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  Three moments that really stand out as turning points or moments that shaped who you are.
• 4:25
  It's a big question.
• 4:27
  I will say probably the ones that stick out in this moment are when I first moved to.
• 4:35
  Because I'm originally from Australia and I moved to the States and was working and living in New York for a couple of years.
• 4:42
  And then I had met a director, a live television director.
• 4:46
  And at the time he was the eminent director in the business.
• 4:50
  He'd won countless Emmys, he was super, super talented.
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  And I was lucky enough to meet him on a job.
• 5:00
  And he saw something in me.
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  And at that point, I don't think I'd had somebody really see something in me.
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  And he offered to mentor me and to bring me to la and I would work with him.
• 5:13
  And I did do that.
• 5:14
  And he was such a pivotal turning point where I went from being a young person who thought that they knew what they wanted to do and had ambition and focus.
• 5:26
  But he took it to another level because he gave me mentorship.
• 5:30
  And I think mentorship is really valuable.
• 5:33
  And that was a moment of turning point, having somebody believe in you in that way and give you the opportunity to really set your pace.
• 5:43
  So that was a big moment.
• 5:44
  And then I think I would say when I started, because when I was in live for about 10 to 12 years and live television's a very unique arm of the business, it's very adrenaline filled and it's very exciting
• 6:01
  and it's creative in its own way, but there's also a lot of structure to it.
• 6:05
  And so I had decided That I wanted more creativity, and I thought that I could get that through creating reality television.
• 6:13
  So I made a leap from live to reality.
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  But it's hard to change disciplines within an industry.
• 6:21
  You know, they like to see you as what you do, and they want you to keep doing that thing.
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  Right.
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  So when I made the shift, I probably didn't work for a year.
• 6:31
  I couldn't find a job anywhere because they were all like, no, go back to life.
• 6:35
  Go back to life.
• 6:36
  But I made the commitment, and I didn't give up, and I committed to making that shift.
• 6:41
  And then I think the first job I interviewed for was the Bachelor.
• 6:46
  And the reason why that moment might have been pivotal is I think I probably had a tad amount of judgment towards the show, and it being maybe pulpy and not something that was based in really, storytelling, but the
• 7:01
  person that ran that show at the time, Martin Hilton, really instilled storytelling and creating beautiful pictures and creating a narrative that is beginning, middle, and end, and really not being afraid of emotions and going into emotions.
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  And so I learned so much through that, and I had a newfound respect for that storytelling art.
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  And then that enabled me to.
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  To tell those stories.
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  So that was a big moment, I would say.
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  And then, honestly, right now, I'm in it right now.
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  This happening right now, this little moment.
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  Now what's happening?
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  Cause I'd been at bachelor for almost 12 years, and then there was some issues that were going on with the show and the network behind the scenes that were causing some friction for everybody, and it needed to just
• 7:52
  take a break.
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  So I left the show last year and went out on my own freelance, which I hadn't been for a very long time, which is scary, but it was also exciting.
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  And so just as that was happening then, my husband and I had been on our adoption odyssey for, like, three years, and nothing happened.
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  And then out of the blue, our daughter showed up.
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  Oh.
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  At the time, I was 53, and it was like everything was changing.
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  I became a mother within 24 hours.
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  I was leaving something that was very stable and that I was very used to and launching myself out again.
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  And so, to me, I feel like I'm in that next pivotal time.
• 8:35
  What is that?
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  I mean, my goodness.
• 8:37
  So I'm just curious about 24 hours and you're a mom.
• 8:45
  Yeah.
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  It's kind of shocking.
• 8:47
  I will say I was probably in shock for the good first three to four months.
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  You just get an action mode, right?
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  You're like, you have this little person that is now your complete responsibility.
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  So you Just do.
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  Get it done.
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  Get it done.
• 9:00
  But I don't think it really, like, hit me that because you.
• 9:06
  You're just in reaction mode almost so.
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  And I was shooting a show at that time and my husband was shooting a show at that time.
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  Cause he's in the business as well.
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  And so it was just this, this crazy chaos.
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  But we figured it out.
• 9:19
  And then I remember coming home and I had been gone for three weeks.
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  And I came home and I saw her and I was like.
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  It just hit me.
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  It's like, oh, I'm her mom now.
• 9:30
  You know, it's kind of crazy, but it's incredible.
• 9:34
  Yeah.
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  How old is she now?
• 9:37
  She'll be one year in like three weeks.
• 9:39
  Oh, my God.
• 9:40
  So this is huge.
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  This is massive.
• 9:42
  I'm like dying because I have.
• 9:44
  I'm 51 and I have a 24 year old and a 18 year old.
• 9:51
  Yeah.
• 9:52
  I'm like trying to grapple in my mind with what it would be like.
• 9:57
  It's so funny because to have a big career.
• 9:59
  Yeah.
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  To be the person that I am today and that I suspect you are.
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  And now have a baby.
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  A baby.
• 10:06
  Yeah.
• 10:07
  It's crazy.
• 10:07
  I will say I feel very lucky on one hand, you know, everybody's like, oh, well, you're older and it's going to be the harder and da, da, da, da, da.
• 10:17
  But I feel like because I've been through so much in your life, I feel so much more grounded than I know.
• 10:23
  I'm leaning into that and not getting.
• 10:27
  Trying not to get too stressed out with things because it's.
• 10:31
  And really enjoy it.
• 10:32
  You know, we've been lucky enough to build our lives to a point where I can enjoy it and also continue to do my passion and my love.
• 10:41
  And that was a large reason why I started over 50 Shades of Great, the podcast, because I felt like, you know, you get into your 50s and you're not done.
• 10:49
  I mean, you're about to start another company.
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  Like, there's so much vitality and experience and creativity that you can have now.
• 10:57
  But there is a little bit of, like, particularly coming from the Hollywood world, there's a little bit of ageism going on.
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  There's a little bit of, you know, of that.
• 11:05
  And I didn't want to get caught up in that.
• 11:08
  And I wanted to create a space for people to come and feel like, oh, I've got this, I can do this, I can make this pivot, I can make this transition.
• 11:17
  I can follow the thing that I really love and be fully who I am.
• 11:23
  So I think that's a really amazing time.
• 11:26
  Yeah, I do, too.
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  If you come in with the right headspace.
• 11:29
  Yeah, I know.
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  I'm at.
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  That's what I was thinking about is just, like, how much, like, when you have kids, when you're in your 30s, in my case, or even your 40s, it's like your roots aren't as grounded, your wisdom isn't as strong,
• 11:44
  your balance sheet isn't right.
• 11:47
  Right.
• 11:47
  Like, I don't know.
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  I feel like you've seen enough cycles of ups and downs that, like, you sort of, okay, this will come, this will go, and you're less.
• 11:57
  You less.
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  You feel less like a house of cards than any wind can blow over.
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  So I can imagine that it's a quite a lovely time to have a baby, actually.
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  I have a friend who has a whole house full of older children, and, like, they're out of the house and then a baby.
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  So I know she's having an amazing time with it.
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  So.
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  Good for you.
• 12:16
  I'm excited.
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  I want to hear more.
• 12:19
  Let's.
• 12:19
  Before we.
• 12:20
  I want to hear all about your experience.
• 12:22
  Like, I don't know people in the Hollywood scene.
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  I don't know movie makers.
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  So it's like, a fascinating sort of thing for me.
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  And I'm also really curious about your storytelling.
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  But tell us more about your new show that you're doing, your podcast, who your guests are, what it's about, what we can learn.
• 12:39
  Yeah.
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  It's called Over 50 Shades of Great.
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  And it isn't just for people that are over 50.
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  It's really about women and having those multitudes of shades of greatness.
• 12:51
  Right.
• 12:51
  Like, you can be great at many things and you can express yourself in many different ways.
• 12:56
  And also, too, life transitions and pivots and changes.
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  Like, I have so many friends that were going through a period of maybe feeling dissatisfied or not fulfilled in the way that they had been with their career or career shifts that they did not expect.
• 13:13
  Just because the change of the nature of the business, and particularly in Hollywood, things are always shifting to your point before, I've seen so many ups and downs and so many different things.
• 13:30
  Is like, this is going through change, and you have to embrace it because you can't stop it.
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  And it is consistent.
• 13:37
  Change is always consistent.
• 13:39
  So I felt like I really wanted to create a space for women to come and have that conversation.
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  And so I have a wide range of women on this show, from movie executives to health professionals to women that are working in Nordstrom's.
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  You know, they're talking about whatever pivot they're about to make.
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  Right.
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  So I wanted it to feel like a conversation that you can drop into and you can feel like you're learning something, but there's no pressure to action it.
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  Like, I.
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  I feel like I'm a podcast junkie.
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  And so I'm listening to all these podcasts and then I get this list of, okay, if I do these five things, then I will make my life better.
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  And then I don't do the five things, and I feel guilty that I didn't do the five things right.
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  So it's like I want the pressure to be taken away, but I want the inspiration to land so the story to be enough.
• 14:35
  Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
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  And like, I had a guest yesterday, amazing woman.
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  She was the head of Nike for branding, for movies, music, everything across the board.
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  She revolutionized their system of how they did it.
• 14:50
  She was there for 25 years, and they let her go, as she said, went from 25 years to a five minute goodbye.
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  And what she went through when she lost that job.
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  And then Nan Ho, she is a Delta flight attendant and she's never been happier.
• 15:08
  She's like, I'm traveling, I'm having a great time.
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  Cause her daughter's gone off to college now.
• 15:13
  But it was a pivot and she was so bold to make that decision.
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  And she said the biggest thing that was standing in her way was worrying what other people would think, that she wasn't this high powered executive anymore and that this was something else that she wanted.
• 15:26
  And so once she got over that, she was able to actually experience it and have a good time.
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  So it's like that story to me gives me so much juice and inspiration.
• 15:35
  Totally.
• 15:36
  What a great story.
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  And I mean, I get it.
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  The bravery to just go and do something different.
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  Go where your heart, whatever it means for you.
• 15:43
  Yeah.
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  You moved to New York, famous director, and that director saw something in you.
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  You built a career out of that.
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  And then you moved from live television to reality.
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  What would you say is your superpower?
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  Like, when you look back at your career, what was it that initial director saw?
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  And then Martin Hilton, like, things that are.
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  What are you really great at?
• 16:08
  What do you love to do?
• 16:10
  I think back then, what was my superpower was enthusiasm and the willingness to do whatever it took to get it done.
• 16:23
  And respect.
• 16:26
  Honestly, I've always, like, I came up in a time when people, the industry was a little bit misogynistic.
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  And in some of these rooms, I was the only woman in the room, which I'm sure you've experienced, and now it's better, and it has changed.
• 16:41
  But I think for me, enthusiasm and the openness and curiosity is what started me.
• 16:50
  I think my superpowers grew and changed as I went through the business and through the experiences that I've learned.
• 16:57
  But now I would say my superpower is that I'm very good at both sides of the coin, so I can tell the stories and get the stories to where we need them.
• 17:08
  Because all storytelling is about challenges and coming up against obstacles and getting over those obstacles, whatever it may be, whether it's falling in love, whether it's a friendship that isn't working.
• 17:22
  But I'm also very, very good at big picture and seeing how to mobilize a team to move in the right direction together.
• 17:32
  So I would say those are my two things now.
• 17:35
  And it's an interesting counterbalance because sometimes you can be good at one and not at the other.
• 17:39
  No, those are super, super important to have to work together as you're building any enterprise, really.
• 17:46
  So I'm particularly fascinated about storytelling, importance of how you craft a story and challenge.
• 17:53
  Right.
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  Because so much of growing a business is about knowing who your customer is and what their problems are.
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  It's so easy for us as founders to become in love with our product.
• 18:05
  Right.
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  And so the good old blind spot.
• 18:09
  Oh, it's a massive blind spot, right?
• 18:12
  Yeah.
• 18:12
  And so you really have spent two decades or more turning ordinary moments into stories that millions of people can't stop but look at.
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  So what do you recommend for us?
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  Like, how do you build a story that helps a customer feel seen and turns that.
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  That feeling into desire and action?
• 18:38
  I think that they have to see themselves in the story.
• 18:42
  You have to really hit on the core desires of human nature.
• 18:49
  Right.
• 18:49
  And like dating shows, it's easy because everybody wants to fall in love.
• 18:55
  Right.
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  So they're all invested in that journey of.
• 18:59
  They all hope they find the one or that they stay with the one or whatever it is.
• 19:03
  Right.
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  But I think if you can find that core human need and then tell the story of that and they can see themselves in that journey and then feel the victory of it.
• 19:17
  Yeah.
• 19:19
  To me, that is what.
• 19:21
  When storytelling is good, and that can even be when it's hard.
• 19:24
  Because I often say, like, particularly in the dating shows, the two best moments in a dating show are when you watch two people fall in love, and when you watch two people fall out of love because they're real
• 19:39
  now, one's positive, one's negative at the Time.
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  But it's a real emotion that everybody can understand and relate to.
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  So you have to make sure you're able to.
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  And you don't always hit the mark, but give those real experiences.
• 19:55
  I totally appreciate that.
• 19:57
  And the ups and the downs, those real feelings, the pain and the desire.
• 20:02
  Okay.
• 20:02
  You also talked about the talent piece.
• 20:04
  So reality sets and lives shows on a lot of pressure, a lot of timelines, a lot of people.
• 20:13
  So tell us about one of those moments, a time you were able to get a person or a team to deliver when everything was on the line.
• 20:23
  Illustrate for us what happened and what's the lesson in it for a founder leading under her own pressure.
• 20:30
  There's many of those moments, but the big moment that really comes to mind is when Covid happened.
• 20:36
  We were about to start shooting the Bachelorette.
• 20:40
  In fact, we were two days away from our very first day of filming.
• 20:44
  So we had all the cast in the hotel, 350 people ready to go.
• 20:49
  For this first day of shooting.
• 20:51
  Covid happened, shut down, everybody goes home.
• 20:54
  And then we idled around for about a week, thinking that maybe this would pass.
• 20:59
  And so we left the cast members at the hotel.
• 21:02
  They said they would wait it out.
• 21:04
  But then we got to the point where we knew that we had to let it go.
• 21:09
  But the leadership of the show, we were very focused on how do we get our team working again?
• 21:18
  What can we do to get our family not in despair, because nobody knew what was going to happen.
• 21:27
  There was no work.
• 21:28
  It was a very precarious time because the studios didn't want to say, here are the rules.
• 21:34
  Go do it this way and then you can go make tv.
• 21:38
  They wanted us to come to them and say, well, what are you going to do?
• 21:41
  And then we'll tell you if we approve it.
• 21:43
  So we came up with a system.
• 21:45
  When we were the first show shooting, I think within three and a half, four months of the shutdown, we were up and running and we shot six seasons in COVID protocols.
• 21:57
  And it was tough.
• 21:58
  Like, we had to quarantine for seven days, and then you'd come out.
• 22:01
  You had to test three times a day.
• 22:03
  It was.
• 22:04
  We were in hot conditions.
• 22:05
  It was not an easy thing to do.
• 22:08
  But the buy in from the people and the understanding of the teams that we wanted them to work and to not be in the situation that so many other people were.
• 22:24
  Right.
• 22:24
  The way the team came together and the things that they went through together and did and achieved, when really everything was stacked against us was remarkable.
• 22:33
  I don't Know if that answers your question.
• 22:35
  But it really sticks at a time when you can really say every single person bought into a bigger vision and they moved together.
• 22:43
  And it was really hard, but it was really rewarding, too.
• 22:48
  I think that there is something incredibly valuable to working together in a team and having those experiences.
• 22:55
  When people feel that sense of connection and moving up a mountain together, it really does create a gel.
• 23:02
  It makes such a big difference, particularly in film and television, because you're coming in and you're creating something from nothing.
• 23:08
  Like, you know, and then once the.
• 23:11
  I would say once the train leaves the station, because once you're on it and you're going, that force of it going keeps you going, right?
• 23:20
  Yes, but you need.
• 23:22
  It's so much harder if everybody isn't invested.
• 23:25
  It makes it so much more difficult, and it's so much better when everybody is.
• 23:31
  Yeah.
• 23:31
  No, it makes such a huge difference.
• 23:33
  It makes everything come together.
• 23:35
  And the really great leaders are the ones that can paint that picture of the future and create that cohesion and alignment that story.
• 23:43
  Right.
• 23:45
  And feeling the ability.
• 23:48
  And I think this is probably true for you, the ability to make your team feel like they are a part of the story and they matter and they're not just a cog in the wheel and that they're important
• 24:02
  and what they bring to the table has value.
• 24:04
  And I think value is even more important today than it has ever been, because I do think people are starting to feel not valued.
• 24:14
  And I think it's a really important part of a leadership skill set.
• 24:20
  I really do think that as you're growing a team, maybe you can say some more about this.
• 24:27
  There's the storytelling inside of a company or a team, what the company is about, what the organization or team is about, and, you know, telling the stories of the.
• 24:40
  Of the team.
• 24:42
  Definitely.
• 24:43
  Right.
• 24:43
  Yeah.
• 24:44
  I mean, I'm thinking about that Taylor Swift video show, and they.
• 24:47
  She tells.
• 24:48
  There's all the stories about the different people on the show.
• 24:51
  Yeah, right.
• 24:52
  And it's like.
• 24:53
  It's like, how do you make your team, like your customer, become the hero?
• 24:57
  Yeah, 100%.
• 24:59
  Well, I'm curious for you, like, what's.
• 25:01
  Yeah.
• 25:02
  In founding companies, what is your favorite part of the process?
• 25:06
  Like, what's the piece that always gets you juiced up?
• 25:10
  Yeah, well, you know, and it's absolutely different for absolutely everybody.
• 25:13
  My favorite part is when I have a.
• 25:16
  A strong team in place or a team and making progress and the progress that turns me on is when people work together and discover their own greatness Right.
• 25:30
  Like when you find.
• 25:31
  I remember working with the first administrator for my healthcare company and she'd never done that job before and she didn't know how to do it.
• 25:39
  And knowing that she wasn't going to learn how to do it all in one day.
• 25:44
  Just like you're not going to build a whole business in one day or you're not going to create a whole movie in one day.
• 25:50
  Right.
• 25:50
  It takes steps.
• 25:51
  And that unfolding for me is.
• 25:54
  It's the creative process.
• 25:56
  Right.
• 25:56
  And you know, for me, I like seeing the outer results as well.
• 26:01
  I like seeing people change and I like to see revenues grow.
• 26:05
  Yeah.
• 26:05
  You know, I like to see profitability.
• 26:08
  I mean, I.
• 26:09
  I really do.
• 26:09
  It's the truth.
• 26:10
  It's part of what makes it exciting and fun.
• 26:13
  Yeah.
• 26:14
  So I'm curious.
• 26:15
  You've developed and sold original formats in some of the most discerning networks and streaming buyers in the business.
• 26:24
  How do you tell the difference between an idea you simply love and an idea that the market is hungry for?
• 26:36
  That, I think, is the elusive question that will.
• 26:39
  Because the thing that you start to realize once you get into the business is you can have an amazing idea.
• 26:46
  It can be bad timing, it can be bad execution.
• 26:49
  It can be so many things and an idea can die.
• 26:55
  That was actually really great.
• 26:56
  And then there's ideas that are kind of okay, but they capture something in that moment.
• 27:02
  And I think to your point about the revenue, it's, you know, in television, for the producer, it's the audience.
• 27:11
  It's exciting when people are watching your stuff and they're talking about your stuff, and it's like.
• 27:16
  And that's the feedback that you get.
• 27:17
  Right.
• 27:17
  Like those revenues growing as the feedback and the audience watching.
• 27:22
  And you don't always know what's going to hit and you just have to be open, ready.
• 27:28
  And like, I always like to say, like, because I come from live, I'm very prepared and I want my team to be very prepared.
• 27:38
  Because when we actually get into it and we start doing it, we're so prepared that when.
• 27:44
  Yeah.
• 27:46
  Hits the fan, we can just go with it because we have somewhere to fall back to.
• 27:52
  We have a plan that is something in our back pocket, but we have the freedom then to go with what happens, because that is what is interesting.
• 28:01
  It's when things go off the rails.
• 28:03
  It's when something happens that you didn't expect and how you pivot and change and deal with that.
• 28:08
  And then those are the moments that the audience really connects to.
• 28:12
  But yeah, the pitching Selling thing.
• 28:16
  I still don't understand it.
• 28:19
  I don't think anybody does.
• 28:20
  It's on a wing and a prayer.
• 28:22
  And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
• 28:26
  If I knew that, I would be probably living on an island in the South Pacific.
• 28:32
  Well, you know, I like what you're saying, though, because for a business, I think of it almost like product market fit.
• 28:40
  Mm.
• 28:40
  Right.
• 28:40
  It's.
• 28:41
  It's that what is going to sell?
• 28:43
  What is the problem, solution, product, market?
• 28:48
  Like, is there a real need?
• 28:49
  Will somebody actually buy it?
• 28:51
  Is it connecting?
• 28:52
  Is it mattering?
• 28:53
  Just like a show, right?
• 28:55
  Is it connecting?
• 28:56
  And I do think that what you're saying about being super prepared so that you can go in and you have sort of this is the beginning, middle and end.
• 29:05
  This is everybody's roles.
• 29:06
  This is why we're measuring things, success y as we're going, right?
• 29:11
  And now we know this is working.
• 29:14
  Y.
• 29:14
  Well, we should lean into that.
• 29:16
  And here's something else that's working.
• 29:18
  Let's lean into that.
• 29:19
  So it gives you that.
• 29:20
  And I.
• 29:20
  I do think there's a huge correlation there with building a business and feedback.
• 29:25
  I mean, we're in a really lucky time on.
• 29:28
  On one sense of it, because your audience, because of social media, you can know what's clicking and hitting for them immediately now, whereas before you didn't, you know, and you can see, oh, somebody really connected to that.
• 29:44
  I wonder if there's something in that idea.
• 29:46
  And it's interesting too, with creating content, because human nature is elusive and the need that they have in that moment might not be a need that is needed tomorrow.
• 29:59
  Right.
• 29:59
  Cause it's like, it's all about what's going on in the culture at the moment and what's in the zeitgeist and how people are feeling.
• 30:06
  And so it's all just a perfect, magical thing that comes together and little bits drop in.
• 30:12
  And if you're lucky enough to be in something, when it hits, it's amazing.
• 30:17
  And it's really sad when it doesn't hit because you just.
• 30:19
  You feel like it's a death.
• 30:21
  But.
• 30:21
  Yeah, but it is what it is, right?
• 30:24
  And if you've been an entrepreneur for a certain amount of time, you're gonna have wins, right?
• 30:29
  You're gonna have failures.
• 30:30
  And if you're in shows, you're gonna have shows that are great and those that aren't, well, maybe they could be great, but they aren't as well received or whatever.
• 30:39
  And so it's.
• 30:41
  It really is.
• 30:42
  It's fascinating to just Be.
• 30:44
  What I heard you say is be prepared, and then be nimble and be willing to.
• 30:48
  To sort of read the room, see what's working.
• 30:51
  There was one point I wanted to say because it's interesting, particularly with reality television.
• 30:55
  Yeah.
• 30:55
  Because you are living in two worlds.
• 30:57
  You have your team that is making it like, making the show, but then there's the cast.
• 31:02
  And the cast.
• 31:03
  I think people weirdly forget about them in this whole process and feel like they're just pawns in the game of television.
• 31:15
  But they are your most important piece of the puzzle, because they're the ones that are going on this experience, putting themselves out there, being open or not being open.
• 31:29
  And those natural human reactions to things are what is interesting.
• 31:35
  It's not the manufactured moments.
• 31:37
  It's the real moments, even the silly moments.
• 31:40
  Like, we had a moment on Golden Bachelor the very first season, and it was a huge hit.
• 31:45
  People loved it.
• 31:47
  The cast were incredible.
• 31:48
  They were so inspiring, so fun.
• 31:51
  But behind the scenes, everybody was like, oh, they're not gonna get into any fights because they're so evolved and they're grownups.
• 31:59
  And I'm like, okay.
• 32:01
  My mom still gets into fights with people.
• 32:03
  Okay.
• 32:03
  It happens.
• 32:04
  It's human nature.
• 32:05
  They're going to bicker about something.
• 32:07
  Right?
• 32:07
  And all men were like, no, no, no, no, no.
• 32:09
  They're.
• 32:10
  They're amazing.
• 32:10
  These women are amazing.
• 32:11
  And sure enough, they got into a fight over something so small.
• 32:14
  But it was relatable because we've all been there, and it wasn't a bad thing.
• 32:19
  Like, do you know what I mean?
• 32:20
  Like, it was just.
• 32:21
  It was a moment in time.
• 32:23
  But that is what resonated for people, was the honesty of that moment.
• 32:28
  And so you have to remember that as you move through docuseries and reality is to keep it as authentic as possible.
• 32:36
  Yeah.
• 32:36
  Yeah.
• 32:37
  Well, I love what you're saying, too, because as there's the drawn parallel between a cast and a team is so clear to me.
• 32:49
  You can have a company with systems and a product and a service and everything that's supposed to go in a particular way, and how the people are going to actually play is.
• 33:01
  And it's not just their job.
• 33:02
  Right.
• 33:03
  It's not just the lines that they're or the positions.
• 33:06
  It's how they interact with each other.
• 33:08
  What's their chemistry really like?
• 33:10
  Like, what is it really going to be like?
• 33:11
  And is this person really good at a particular thing?
• 33:16
  And this other person, you know, this person is really connected and heartfelt, and this one is really funny.
• 33:22
  And, you know I don't know.
• 33:24
  And so you just don't know.
• 33:26
  And so it's.
• 33:27
  It's a constantly evolving creation.
• 33:31
  You know, in our.
• 33:32
  In our Force for Good model, we call it being transformative.
• 33:35
  How do you create the outcome you want?
• 33:37
  And knowing that there's.
• 33:40
  There is a script and there's cameras in your case.
• 33:43
  Right.
• 33:43
  There's a set and there's props and there's a script, but then you've got humans, and they're gonna do what they're.
• 33:50
  That's what you want.
• 33:51
  Like, and that's the interesting thing about reality that I've worked on.
• 33:54
  I think there might be some shows that script, but we do not script.
• 33:59
  What we do is create scenarios for them to be able to react with each other.
• 34:06
  And then you get those moments of who does brush up against each other, who does connect.
• 34:12
  And so it's an interesting.
• 34:16
  It's very psychological because you're creating these activities and different things to bring out their real personalities and see what play happens in that moment.
• 34:26
  Right.
• 34:27
  If we could script it, it would have been so much easier, but it wouldn't have been as fun.
• 34:30
  No.
• 34:31
  It wouldn't be real.
• 34:33
  No.
• 34:33
  Like, even stuff.
• 34:34
  Like.
• 34:34
  I remember there was one bachelorette, and she had.
• 34:38
  It was night one, and she was meeting all of her suitors, and we all thought this one particular man was her husband.
• 34:46
  Like, we just.
• 34:47
  He was just so amazing.
• 34:50
  She met him and did not like him immediately.
• 34:54
  Was like, wanted to get rid of him.
• 34:56
  He had said something to her that was from his culture, a compliment, but she took it in the wrong.
• 35:02
  And she was like, I want him gone.
• 35:04
  Da, da, da.
• 35:04
  And we were like, no.
• 35:06
  Like, he's actually your perfect guy, because we're all taking bets behind the scenes.
• 35:11
  And we were like, just give him another chance.
• 35:13
  Maybe it was a little off, like, because you can't intervene in a big way.
• 35:17
  You just have to give them as much information as you can, but they have to make their own decisions or, you know, they have to experience it.
• 35:24
  So she trusted us and kept him.
• 35:27
  And she's like, he's got one more week, and then that's it.
• 35:29
  And we were like, totally fine.
• 35:32
  They're engaged now and have been together for five years, and they are very in love.
• 35:36
  And that was an amazing moment.
• 35:38
  Yeah.
• 35:39
  Yeah.
• 35:39
  That we could have.
• 35:40
  She could have missed her husband totally.
• 35:43
  But, you know, you never know what's going to happen.
• 35:45
  You don't.
• 35:47
  Well, what is the wisdom of all that for you?
• 35:49
  Like, what does that mean?
• 35:54
  Like, what's in life or in creating television?
• 35:57
  Yeah, I mean, I think.
• 35:58
  I think.
• 35:59
  I think stay open.
• 36:00
  Yeah, you know, stay open.
• 36:02
  Because I think we've all.
• 36:04
  Listen.
• 36:05
  We're creatures of judgment.
• 36:06
  We make judgment every day because it's how we navigate through life.
• 36:09
  Like, should I go down here?
• 36:11
  Will I go buy this?
• 36:12
  Like, I don't like how that person treated me.
• 36:15
  We're in a constant state of judging our surroundings as a sort of survival mechanism.
• 36:20
  I do think sometimes it can get in our way and you just have to remain open.
• 36:26
  You know, I think that's profound, right?
• 36:30
  I do.
• 36:31
  Well, great.
• 36:32
  Let's move on to the next here.
• 36:34
  Let's do our fast fire.
• 36:36
  Okay.
• 36:36
  Five questions, five words.
• 36:39
  Nervous?
• 36:40
  What if I say something bad?
• 36:41
  Will you bleep it out?
• 36:42
  Oh, sure.
• 36:43
  Course.
• 36:45
  I got you.
• 36:47
  You can't fail.
• 36:48
  These are fun.
• 36:51
  All right, so question one.
• 36:53
  Reality TV or live award show?
• 37:00
  There's nothing better than the energy and excitement of being in the booth on a live night.
• 37:07
  When it goes, when it takes off, it is a freight train and it is thrilling.
• 37:14
  Reality takes a bit longer to get there, but when you hit it and you see those real moments, it feels just as good as the live.
• 37:23
  I love that.
• 37:26
  One word for your second act.
• 37:34
  One word.
• 37:40
  Inspiration.
• 37:43
  Amazing.
• 37:44
  The bravest yes of your career, or I'm going to.
• 37:48
  I'm going to say the bravest yes of your life.
• 37:52
  Bravest yes of my life.
• 38:04
  I.
• 38:05
  This is a tough one, Coco.
• 38:06
  I think the bravest yes of my life is that I pretty much always say yes.
• 38:10
  Oh, that's great.
• 38:12
  Because there's been many, many points where I was just go for it.
• 38:16
  And amazing things have happened.
• 38:18
  And so I think just the act of being in a state of yes.
• 38:22
  Yeah, you can really bring amazing things to you.
• 38:25
  Brilliant.
• 38:26
  Best lesson motherhood has taught you so.
• 38:30
  Far, to take a breath and just enjoy the small moments.
• 38:39
  Like when you're feeding her.
• 38:41
  Just sit and feed her.
• 38:43
  Don't check your phone, don't watch.
• 38:45
  Listen to a podcast.
• 38:46
  Just be there in that moment.
• 38:49
  A story you long to tell.
• 38:54
  I love love.
• 38:56
  So romance and the pursuit of your beloved is always really intrigued me, which is interesting that I ended up on the Bachelor.
• 39:06
  So I do have a screenplay that I'm working on that is a rom com.
• 39:12
  And so for me, like, I love humor and I love people falling in love.
• 39:17
  It's awesome.
• 39:18
  And how can our listeners learn more about you and learn more about your show?
• 39:28
  Yeah, I mean, come to over 50 Shades of Great.
• 39:30
  We're on YouTube podcast.
• 39:33
  Check it out.
• 39:34
  Subscribe, Leave comments Let me know anybody that you want to see on the show.
• 39:39
  I am having so much fun because I love talking to people and love learning about people.
• 39:46
  And that was another, I think another piece for me in reality that I love is the casting process because you're meeting all these different people all the time.
• 39:54
  So I think that's my joy with that is getting to actually connect to people.
• 39:58
  Right.
• 39:59
  So I'll put into the show notes all of the links to your over 50 Shades of Great.
• 40:05
  And you're on LinkedIn too, right?
• 40:07
  Yeah.
• 40:07
  Yep.
• 40:08
  Great.
• 40:08
  So people still a working TV producer.
• 40:11
  So.
• 40:12
  And is there any other way that we can support you today and help you make your next big mountain come true?
• 40:20
  Oh, I love that.
• 40:21
  Well, I have to say you're forced for good.
• 40:23
  I am subscribed to and I use all of your free material in relation to what I'm doing on the shows too to like how to help myself be more organized and be more connected to what I'm trying to
• 40:36
  get either the buyers to understand or the team to understand.
• 40:41
  Because I do think that there's so many parallels to building a company.
• 40:45
  Oh, I'm so happy to hear that.
• 40:47
  Yeah, no, I love it.
• 40:48
  I'm so happy that we got to connect today.
• 40:50
  Deborah, I really appreciate it.
• 40:52
  Appreciate you having me and I think you're doing incredible work.
• 40:55
  Oh, thank you.
• 40:56
  Thank you so much for being on the show today.
• 40:59
  Thank you for bringing us all of your wisdom and your insights from behind the silver screen.
• 41:05
  It's all new to me, so it's really fun to hear that experience.
• 41:09
  And to all of our world changing listeners, be sure to follow like and share the wisdom of women.
• 41:14
  Show on whatever your favorite listening reviewing platform is is.
• 41:18
  And remember, the world is made better by women led business.
• 41:24
  Let's all go make the world a better place.
• 41:28
  Cheers.