Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / STA214 'What Values Make A Professional Therapist?' with special guest Martin Christensen

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STA214 'What Values Make A Professional Therapist?' with special guest Martin Christensen · The STA Clinician Podcast

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Music.
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Welcome, people. How are you doing? Welcome to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, episode 214.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creator of RunShutLive.com.
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And as always, this episode is being recorded live on the Sports Therapy Association
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YouTube channel and Facebook page.
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And if you do join us live, which I do recommend, if you can join us this time,
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then you're able to bring up comments and ask questions directly to our guests.
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For example, Nikki Mansfield was first to the door and says, says
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evening fair warning that i should be honoring martin's friday night
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podcast with a glass or two of my preferred alcoholic beverage
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it's already started the effect peer pressure
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of drinking alcohol is evident here so yeah nikki's getting wasted in
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the background good nikki hope you enjoy yourself thanks for joining us
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so glenn murphy mbe is also going chin chin also
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once again someone else who likes alcohol this is join is
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a thing happening here and sarah jones is here
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as well with her for a second so alcohol seems to be the flavor
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night thanks for joining us live people really appreciate it so in
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this episode what values make a
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professional therapist my guest is going to be martin christensen
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christensen i think a norwegian a norwegian physiotherapist best known for his
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friday physio confession podcast martin will be speaking at therapy expo this
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november including a q a session in the sta theater on day two which is november
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the 28th at 3.10 p.m. on this very topic.
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So, oh, look, I've seen Alistair come through the door as well.
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I see Beverly has joined us as well. He says, don't worry, I'm here.
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Great, we can start now. That's fine. We've been waiting for you,
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Alistair. Thanks for joining us.
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So if you're listening to this recording, thank you very much.
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Please leave a rating if you enjoy it, because I'm sure you will. Sit back and enjoy it.
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And to those of you who have joined us live, feel free to write questions in
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the comments section as and when they occur to your little brains.
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Points so without further ado let's bring up martin at christensen.
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Hey martin how you doing,
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I'm good, I'm good. Cheers, people. Those of you who are listening to the podcast,
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you won't be able to see the range of alcoholic beverages that Martin will be
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tasting tonight. At the moment, what are you on, Martin?
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That looked like a rather light... Yes, it's a light beer. It's a juicy IPA.
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It's a simple 4.7 ABV.
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So it's not getting unhinged, I think.
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You're moderating yourself now. That's good. So clear-headed.
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Really appreciate you giving up your time to join us. Very excited to talk to
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you because I've followed you for a fair time now since the early 2020s,
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which sounds like a long time ago.
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And we were just saying off air, I wanted to pick up with this.
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Your name does seem to be appearing more in different feeds and your kind of
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therapy experience, which is very exciting.
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Have you noticed that? Do you notice that more people talk about you? So how's that you feel?
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I'm just happy that my payoffs, my bribes and stuff like that are starting to work.
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I haven't quite noticed that Some people say the same And I still find it strange
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Not as strange to Being invited to Come on a running podcast.
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It's quite uh that's that's that's interesting it's since i'm i'm not a runner
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i'm built more like a hobbit oh yeah yeah you've done a half marathon haven't
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you i have yeah congratulations you're in the club that's it yeah cheers that was that was not good.
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It's fine you still done it it's it's competing it doesn't matter about the
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time doesn't matter so anyway i'm really great and you are indeed as i've mentioned
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you're coming coming all the way from Norway to attend Therapy Expo this November.
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Just briefly, what incited you to do that?
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Well, that's a good question. I was invited by, I think, Anne-Marie Massieri.
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Oh, we could say that. Yeah, forced Therapy Expo into inviting me over.
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And yeah, I thought it was going to be a good chance to just meet people and
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being able to talk about stuff that I like and care a lot. So, yeah.
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Yeah, having you at Therapy Expo to me is a testimony of how Therapy Expo is getting better.
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And it's the subject of matter. It's not going to be any more filled with people
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who are also selling this or that.
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It's people who've got a good message who aren't really selling anything apart
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from quality information and evidence for practice and all this stuff that we should be using.
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So, thank you for doing that. Thanks for coming on.
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Well my pleasure it's not your first time there is it as this photo will show
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because i do have video proof i didn't know that alistair's gonna be in the
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show today it's not the most flattering picture of alistair those glasses as
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well everyone else was wearing really cool glasses but yeah,
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that that's uh that was a good that
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was a good trip that was a good one and yeah describe
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to those of you listening to the podcast you can't see the photo we've got a lovely photo here
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of alistair beverly filling out a blue training vest
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there with shades on so yeah where was that happening what was going
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on so yeah i i
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basically just hijacked alistair
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for a long weekend and said i'm coming over
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and we got a couple of others dudes like adam gobson luke todd to just like
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have fun so i shadowed alistair for a few days in this in this clinic got to
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see what a real real shit a physio can do,
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for real though he's great he's really great at
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his job but didn't get to experience a
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lot of his patients calling him different bad names and I thoroughly enjoyed
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that but as the weekend went out we had us a little bit of sunshine drink fantastic
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yeah so that's where the photo I think we started to,
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lose sight of any.
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Cpd related contents at that
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time yeah well it was lovely to see together and
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again it was just an example of how great minds are coming together it
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makes me feel quite positive about the internet to tell you the truth who
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was our list oh it was actually jerry dunham the great jerry
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dunham i'm so pleased you had it as as the first part of the
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professionalism discussions on your podcast because i
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think he was saying we have to remember that twitter and stuff like
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that has done some amazing things it's not all crumb it's brought
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people together internationally and this is an example of it i love the fact
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that you two who in my opinion are just fantastic minds i've got to go but it's
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quite a funny story that actually it hasn't been told because we got me and
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i would say got to know each other by by accident because we were suddenly in
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a group chat with another,
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physio that was following us both and oh i can't remember his name so obviously
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if you can't remember his name type it in the the comments but it was all accident
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and we started to chatting,
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long and getting to know each other and it's been great I've been over to meet
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Alistair and Alistair took his family.
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To come here to Norway and yeah it's been great yeah,
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fantastic great Alistair as well Alistair's going to be speaking as well as
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Therapy Expo so again it's another great reason to come along in November people
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I'll take that picture I've realised that picture was up there for about 10
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minutes so sorry Alistair but if you'd like better shots and more kind of favourable
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shots of Alistair So just head to TikTok. There's plenty of photo videos.
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I've been working out with various animals and people.
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And it's just, he's actually quite hunky, isn't he? He's got some guns.
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Yeah, he's got the gunshot. And I'm kind of trying to bribe him to send me more
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like shirtless pics, but he won't oblige anymore.
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He understood what I used them for. So.
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But that brings us nice. That's a good segue into the topic of tonight of professionalism,
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because he probably sees it not very professional sending kind of
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shirtless this picture of himself to another work colleague let me
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just point out to people who are listening i don't know he is with us as well hi maria
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welcome thanks for joining us so yeah so people
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aren't aware this professional there's so many reasons why you're into professionalism
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you've done a four-part series on your podcast let me just remind people what
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that is in case people aren't aware so we're talking about the friday physio
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confession podcast which is great because that photo actually shows a physio
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touching song which i thought physically in care they didn't think they actually did.
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It almost looks like a sports therapy photo. So well done on finding the one
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photo of a physio tapping someone. Well done. I thought I'd just dig that in there. And then...
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Oh, yeah, this is something on Twitter, which again, just made me fall a little
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bit more in love with you. This is back in 2021.
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And you've got it pinned to your Twitter profile, which is Martin underscore Necolai.
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You're going to have to Google that. It's N-E-K-O-L-A-I.
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But yeah, I'm going to read this out for people to listen to the podcast because
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it's a great conversation piece.
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And you said on a Friday, November the 19th, it was, sometimes when I've done
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a thorough consultation, done all my tests, all my screening and checked all
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my hypothesis, I still don't have a clue of what the hell is going on.
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And that was just like a beautiful confession.
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What was it? Do you remember back then? Do you know what it was that particularly
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sparked you to say that or announce it live?
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I think that funny thing is that there's one confession I wrote while cleaning out my kid's bedroom.
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So it's just like, yeah. Yeah. And what spun that is on that day,
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I had two or three completely new patients coming in.
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I've done a proper good job in my book. I've done good.
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But in one of those cases, I had no idea, just nothing to go on.
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And so i was like this is happening a lot so let's just let's state it out loud.
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And and it took off that was probably the the tweet the confession that yeah
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took the most off so i remember remember going to sleep and waking up and just
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boom out so it resonated with quite a lot of people and i yeah that was lovely
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as well because it could apply although and i want
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to stress this to listeners that although it's called the the
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physio confession podcast the friday
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physio confession podcast that comment shows how i
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mean it'll be music to the ears of my fellow
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sports therapists because a lot of sports therapists think that oh
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no physios know it all and and you know
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they know everything they can work in hospitals and everything and
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it's like no physios go through exactly the
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same as any other health care professional because you're working with
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humans yeah exactly and i think
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it applies to all therapists and and just
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just sometimes we just don't know because it doesn't fit any textbook it doesn't
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fit any patterns it doesn't fit anything that we can relate to and we still
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have to help but you know just just trying to to um.
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Yeah and it's kind of healthy isn't it as well because the moment
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we start thinking we've got all the answers and we can fix this person
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by following this procedure then we're probably going down a
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wrong path aren't we yeah i think so yeah you can do so it's healthy and we
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try getting that message across the podcast a lot it's healthy to realize that
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you haven't got all the answers and that means you have to listen a little bit
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more and let your patient and don't feel embarrassed to let your clients or
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patients know that they're not a car and this is going to.
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Take a little bit of beard stroking to actually make it work yeah
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because also i find that patients
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response really well to it and people coming
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in that just you're not that you're not
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on a private store or whatever it's called
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you you you're there together and trying
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to figure out and you and it just shows that you
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take me seriously you know you're not brushing it off
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you just there is something here that's not
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right i believe in you i just don't know what
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that is yeah so yeah being more
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honest is yes it's a game changer i
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think we should do more yeah that's great
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and i like to hear you confirm that in your experience patients
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aren't put off by that because i think that's one of the problems we're
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trained to put on our white coats or whatever our
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uniforms and think that the patients will be horrified if
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we say i'm not quite sure why that's happened them let's try this but they
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don't mind they actually like it it's the opposite isn't it they feel safe yeah exactly
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cool right so yeah that
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initial friday confession about a year later i believe then
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you started your friday physio confession podcasts
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and and most recently i'll just bring this up for those of you who like the
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youtube screenshots if you are listening podcast you want to see what's on the
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screen and just if you want to if you've got the time pause your podcast app
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and just go onto youtube and they're all on there video for so yeah you've just
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done a recent four-part series on professionalism,
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which is what we're talking about tonight.
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Which incidentally I heard on there is your thesis, isn't it,
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for a master's you're doing? Yeah, it is.
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What made you pick that topic?
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Oh, yeah. So before I went into physiotherapy training, I had a bachelor's degree
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in social and cultural studies.
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And when I got into the training of healthcare professionals,
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it came into stark contrast with what I've learned about how we function as
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a society, how we develop, and how well we are just different.
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And I couldn't quite figure out how me being me was something negative,
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because I got comments about that was not professional, you can't say that,
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you can't do this, you can't make joke of that, all this.
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But nobody really had an answer to what do you mean by being professional?
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Was it this right here or was it that? What do you mean?
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And so it really just stemmed out from me being called unprofessionals a lot of times.
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And that combined with what I call a lot of clinical success,
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not clinical success in me knowing all,
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but clinical success in that I got a
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lot of people not yet caring
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about themselves and caring about me in that relationship
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with patients that i've had over
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over years i just like wanted to
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get a grip on that and start like researching
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what is professionalism and it seems like nobody really knows so what are some
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of the things you were getting picked on and then people accusing you of not
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being professional what are
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we talking about oh mainly i've got a couple of comments on what I wore.
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So I remember having a rock t-shirt on. That wasn't good.
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Sneakers wasn't good. And then some comments about my language.
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A couple of comments about swearing.
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Nothing necessarily swearing but the words I use to explain things.
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And there was one comment I can't remember what it was, but I tried to explain it in layman's terms.
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And then we got pulled to the side and said, you have to use proper terms.
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And I was like, that person wouldn't understand proper terms. So what's the use?
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So yeah, basically, though. So your argument was...
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The patient is not going to be harmed by the fact that I'm wearing a rock T-shirt.
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The patient's certainly not going to be harmed by the fact that I'm talking
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their language as opposed to something they're not going to understand.
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And I'm explaining something the way they're going to understand.
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Which has kind of got logic to it, because I suppose the idea of professionalism
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is to protect the patient or the client and to make sure... Yeah,
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it could be. That's the problem, isn't it?
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I mean, I thought it was interesting that you had four guests and it was great
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because they all kind of approached it in a slightly different way and i really enjoyed like,
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jerry down there's just a great front of
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house organizer into helping businesses kind of succeed in
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looking at not just your qualifications but what's happening at
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the moment they walk in it's brilliant he was approaching it from that kind
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of angle but then it was oliver thompson
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who was kind of pointing that out
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i just said that professionalism is supposed to be there and
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i think a lot of our audience where safety does have to be
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key especially like appropriate touch if we're talking
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particularly about sports massage therapists then there are ways etiquette for
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the towel and everything and it's protecting the modesty of the of the client
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also kind of protecting the therapist as well and making sure everything's done
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kind of professional which i don't think we can really argue about there's a
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professional way isn't there to protect the patient and kind of the ethics of
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it but then there's what you're talking about which is where
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somebody's kind of decided that they want you to do this because you're representing them.
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I guess that's the problem for you, is it really?
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Yeah, you could say that. That somebody else outside or on the side of the context
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is going to reprimand me for what I do in that context,
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when I'm the one responsible for that relationship.
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It's so much more professionalism is so much more than like you say the tarot
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it's about being comfortable it's about being,
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valued, trusted heard and so it's so complex that when we talk about professionalism
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we everything is right and everything is wrong at the same time because it's so contextual,
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it's so fluid word and that's what
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really bothers me when i'm being called unprofessional
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so because it's yeah if
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you if you can't define it properly and
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and amass everything in it then you can't use it as a reprimand in my world
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in my opinion so that's what made me interested in yeah so i think you've got
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an argument there and don't forget people who listen we've got some great minds in there
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tonight in the live lounge in fact everyone i can see them the name of i'll
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be interested what your view on this is but i i like your argument that.
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What you we all talk about how we're supposed
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to teach treat all of our patients as individuals patient-centered
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care it's the secret we're kind of moving towards that now and outcomes hopefully
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a better look at the treat the person in front of you not the injury kind of
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thing yeah but then suddenly and then you mentioned this on your podcast that
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even though we're taught to treat everybody's individuals and that's the way
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that gets the good outcomes we all have to dress in the same way and use the
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same language and kind of be
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really stereotypical and there's definitely a problem there, isn't there?
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I think there's the class in the way we've constructed ourselves and our professional
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identity and what we experience in the clinic for being here.
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But as I used this example, talking to you at Amikens, I think it was the last of the four episodes,
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and there's some cases that when you're properly dressed, you've used all the
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correct terms, you haven't sweared, you haven't done anything that,
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particularly crazy and stuff like that and you found out
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the problem and everything is is correct in
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orderly and you can find out that patient still
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goes home and have experience and professionality right so that could happen
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so professionalism is so much more than the tidbits we when we actively think
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about it, the temp is really cool for it.
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And that's why when I talked to Mick Insta, I was like, maybe it's more of a feeling.
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And when we go down that path and say it's about the most thing that's created
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in the context, it just blasts off in every direction.
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And it's so much harder to pin down.
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But at the same time it could get easier to understand because we put we set
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aside like principles and embrace the,
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yeah the the the world of
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how we well perceived reality
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as we talk about in social anthropology and
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stuff like that how we see reality and how we understand ourselves and
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everybody in it and it's it's emotions we
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understand our world through emotions and experience so maybe
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we should look into that direction when talking
21:30
about professionalism rather than than the
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usual what words you used what clothes you wore and yeah yeah do you understand
21:40
oh totally yeah yeah i'm nodding away and there will be some places where i'm
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not quite maybe on the same page or Or maybe we are, we're just kind of at different ends of it.
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So your argument is that outcomes could actually be better if therapists worry
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less about how they look and whether they sound professional and whether they've
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got the certificates all lined up perfectly on the wall and concentrate more
22:08
on just being themselves,
22:09
being natural and looking at the person in front of them and being a bit more
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of a chameleon in the sense of adapting towards what that person in front of
22:16
us needs. Yeah, it could be.
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What I mean is that it would be definitely better for us in our relationship
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with that patient, regardless of if outcomes are better.
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But I think that when we're dealing with humans, and being humans ourselves,
22:35
we can't leave our identity, our thinking, our experience at the door.
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And when you see when you look into research you've got a really good research
22:47
paper, a positive paper that I can't remember I'm not Greg Lehman,
22:51
I can't remember the date and the author No,
22:55
no, it's good Now we do it quick They checked out how cancer patients.
23:01
Found their GPs, the doctors and the specialist treatment and what they,
23:06
kind of looked into as positive and And the people that had meetings where they
23:15
felt understood, where they felt that they were a part of the treatment,
23:21
shared decision-making, they had all the information, the clinicians,
23:26
the doctors and everything, used a time and a language they understood proper.
23:33
Those were rated higher in satisfaction than anything else.
23:40
And so I think that goes to show that a lot of use in our profession.
23:47
It's about that, just that human connection between two and understanding where we are.
23:55
If, if that, regardless of if that's, that understanding is we don't know, or we know.
24:04
And taking that time, if you have it, and probably not,
24:10
I struggle to say that you'll get better
24:13
outcomes but i think you'll get a better process
24:16
if that why do you not like
24:19
committing to the sense that a better process will lead to a better outcome
24:22
well well can it be a
24:24
healthy contributing factor yeah it just
24:28
it just feels too definite i'd say
24:30
that you will need to a better outcome because i can't
24:33
i can't guarantee that okay but it could play it could
24:36
be important factor yeah and we know that people that
24:40
believe in the process of what they're doing leads
24:43
to better outcomes so i do believe that
24:46
having a better relationship will further that
24:50
belief in that what we're doing is working and that yes will lead to a better
24:55
outcome but that's just as a general i'm well there's no that's that's fine
25:03
it's healthy it's very good not to be dead from that. He wants to be dead from that. Okay, so...
25:08
Okay, so you've got therapists who realise that their client.
25:13
Therapists reflecting their clients a little bit more so we all
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we kind of with therapists out here probably familiar we've talked
25:18
in the show about using the same language as the
25:21
client i suppose there's been studies on pain while using the let the
25:24
let the the actual client come up with their own metaphors because it
25:27
just helps with understanding so that's fine we're kind
25:30
of suggesting that it doesn't just have to be the language it could be if
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they're if they're if you get the vibe that they're happy
25:35
for you just to have shorts and a t-shirt acdc t-shirt on
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and flip-flops or something then as long as the place is clean and it's
25:41
they're still being protected then there's not a big deal language-wise if
25:45
they're coming in swearing or they like to
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swear a little bit and and you find that you've you read it
25:50
using your skills that they actually are going to feel a bit more comfortable in
25:53
your presence if you're swearing a bit it's going to make them feel a bit more about
25:56
a third piece of your lives than you do so so you've got this
25:59
really kind of nice vibe going on which could be great
26:02
the first thing that comes to my mind
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which is where i want want to pick your brain a bit what about
26:08
in the situations where they the relationship
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goes a bit sour maybe they're not getting better okay and
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suddenly you're not their friend anymore okay you might both like acdc you know
26:19
i'd like to swear a bit and then they start kind of complaining a bit i'm just
26:24
wondering whether one of the roles of professionalism which kind of stops that
26:29
friendship from getting to boundaries from being crossed they can go back and say yeah we used to.
26:34
Turn up with acdc to show what should i expect to used to swear
26:37
in clinic and suddenly all cut back fires a little bit whereas
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if you had maintained those professional boundaries of always
26:44
wearing the neutral kind of therapist suit
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using languages fairly neutral well
26:50
definitely not swearing then they can't kind of throw that back at you how do
26:54
you feel about it i think my most immediate uh thought is now that one of the
26:59
best realizations i've had in my own clinic work is that I can't be the best
27:06
therapist for everyone I meet.
27:11
And to accept that personality traits don't always mix is a good part of it.
27:20
So if that happens, and it has happened,
27:26
is that I either do this brilliant thing that I listen to my Eric Mirra podcast
27:32
cast once and he he would just like sit down stay right out i feel this isn't working am i wrong,
27:43
and have a conversation or, or just state up, okay, I feel we lost each other.
27:51
I'm going to refer you on to another therapist that I think you suit you better.
27:57
And, and I think that ability to recognize that, well, this isn't working and
28:03
refer on is a better option than being, well, flat for everybody.
28:10
So I'd rather be meek and more human and get that resistance and realize,
28:19
shit, I'm not a quickie terrorist for you.
28:22
You should see this one or that one.
28:25
They'll suit you better. It's a better outcome and option for both of us than
28:31
doing that stereotypical flatlined for everybody. way.
28:36
But of course, as you mentioned earlier, we've got to be comedians, right?
28:42
Of course, there's patients where I kind of reel in and some patients I go out all out on.
28:53
And I think that is probably one of our best traits as therapists, being able to do that.
29:00
But again, Again, you're not going to be the best therapist for everybody you see.
29:08
In my opinion, some of the people you see, you'll be shit therapists too.
29:12
And realizing that and saying, we don't match, I think you'll find a better
29:19
match with this therapist.
29:21
It's good for you and it's good for the patient.
29:24
So, yeah. I just worry, though, that if somebody does fall out of love with
29:29
you because it's not working, which happens quite a lot.
29:30
Patients change they meet someone else or whatever it is someone else tells them
29:33
oh you shouldn't be seeing this person and then do you
29:36
want people do you want your reputation to be
29:39
oh they're the physio that swears they're the physio doesn't even
29:41
wear kind of uniform to work they just wear shorts and a t-shirt because that's
29:45
what they'll use against you even though at the time they were happy with that
29:49
they've now got ammunition where and and if you if you think that i don't know
29:54
probably i don't want to give makeup stats but a lot of people might be put off at first,
30:00
hearing if they hear him swears.
30:02
Again, there's no context there.
30:04
He sweared in the room. He was just wearing a t-shirt. He wasn't even wearing clean stuff.
30:09
They're just going to associate that with a lack of professionalism.
30:12
So I wonder whether the professionalism exists.
30:16
To keep that neutrality, to make sure that there isn't any ammunition.
30:20
It keeps it kind of from, I wonder whether that's one of the reasons for it.
30:25
Yeah. Look, why shouldn't it be, why shouldn't it be used as something to comment on?
30:35
And I'm rather, you look at your working life, right?
30:38
Your day in, your day out, you're meeting a lot of people every day.
30:42
Would you rather have a setting in the context you feel that you could be at
30:51
your most secure, making you more relaxed,
30:56
more trusting, and more open to the people that you meet than having the feeling
31:03
of, I got to wash myself, I got to wash myself.
31:08
Right? Right. So, again, do I fear the backlash as you talk about it?
31:17
Of course, we all do, right? We don't want the reputation of being unserious, right?
31:25
But, again, I want those people that come to me feeling safe and careful and
31:31
understood, right? And I want them to get away with the feeling that I'm a human being.
31:39
And I'm going to talk about, I went to the physio, I went to Martin's set.
31:47
That's on me. I said that, and I could be wrong,
31:51
but I want them to think about me as another human being and not another cog in the wheel,
31:57
because that's another problem with everyone in healthcare care and everything
32:01
that patients are a cog in the wheel and they in turn see us as another cog
32:08
in the wheel the health care system and i don't want to be part of a system i want to be,
32:14
what martin letizio or martin the terrorist and i believe that all in all has
32:22
the better chance of of of a positive process than being.
32:29
Well, count, great, if that's something I was using.
32:33
I get it. That's a good answer. So the wins you're going to get from being yourself
32:41
and forming that therapeutic alliance with patients is worth it if there's one or two who do fall out.
32:46
There's always going to be people who are unhappy and they start saying,
32:48
oh, fine, let me go away and do their stuff. I like it.
32:52
People, I'm interested in the live lounge. We've got therapists here.
32:55
And it's you know these conversations need to be fueled by what
32:57
actual people on the shop floor who are listening to
33:00
this say would you be happy do you think there's substance
33:03
in the idea that you should if you're somebody who automatically wears that
33:07
kind of therapist outfit when you're doing treatments would you do you think
33:12
there's enough there's there's substance in the idea that you should relax and
33:14
turn it down a bit so you come across as more human what about swearing i mean
33:19
do therapists out there if they if they realize their client is happy with that it makes
33:23
it a closer alliance are you happy do you reciprocate that
33:25
even if it's not that natural for you to swear because that's
33:28
something else as well i mean if it's not natural for you it could sound terrible if you
33:31
start trying to swear just for the sake to be there buddy but if it
33:34
comes natural for you should you not withhold that so let us know with that
33:38
in mind i think we've got a few questions coming in our base and what was said
33:40
so let's roll up a bit of course you've got some comments anna maria here is
33:45
taking notice what i see is anna maria massiari everywhere let's have a look
33:48
right boom boom boom i'm impressed martin's actually dressed That's a little
33:51
bit too much information there between your relationship.
33:53
Yeah, you made me choose if I could throw a beer or get Nick out.
33:58
So I chose beer. You chose beer. Nicky Mansfield.
34:01
Let's start with Nicky. Nicky says, have your studies found much commonality
34:04
across different industries of what is perceived as professionalism?
34:07
I suspect there's one set of values, so it's no wonder they don't always fit us.
34:12
Good question. So I might work for one profession, but why is it going to work in healthcare?
34:17
Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I found a couple of studies where they saw
34:23
physiotherapists against chiropractors and osteopaths.
34:27
And the outcome they saw was that the values are commonly shared.
34:38
So this is my interpretation of it. Don't take it with a pinch of salt.
34:44
Is that the more you went towards the medical side of treatment or kind of profession,
34:54
the more being properly addressed, proper language and being seen as an authority was manifesting.
35:04
But across the whole, like in the MSK therapist world, who share the same values,
35:14
and it's not so big a difference. But, yeah.
35:19
So that's interesting what you just said. Do you think some MSK professionals
35:23
dress up on purpose because they're thinking they're going to be looked at more
35:28
of a reputable person compared to the surgeon or consultant?
35:31
Is that a reason sometimes why some therapists do dress themselves up a bit?
35:34
Yeah, I would think so.
35:37
Yeah, absolutely. There was We know that even my point is being relaxed and
35:44
wearing what I want to wear.
35:46
It's not saying that I don't believe that what you wear can have an effect. Right.
35:55
So I do believe that, yes, there are therapists that need to follow a strict
36:01
line of dressing code to be seen.
36:07
But more preferably, that's a different English word. Yeah, that's good.
36:14
As long as we have body-isms. Yeah, so I think that maybe we as professionals,
36:18
MSK, Sarcophagists, Sports Prep, Physios, Osteopaths, Napropaths,
36:23
Napropaths is a Scandinavian stock.
36:26
We always struggle towards the authority, GP stocks, you know, the medics have.
36:34
And yeah, I do believe there are cases where people need to take that active
36:40
choice of dressing and working a certain way.
36:45
It's such an interesting spectrum though, isn't it? Because in my mind,
36:48
I've almost got like a cartoon of the really traditional GP who's all suited
36:53
up, really shiny shoes, done that morning, obviously their computer.
36:56
And they're not looking at the patient, they're just typing away,
36:58
looking at their clock, 10 minutes is up, thank you, goodbye,
37:00
haven't even looked at them.
37:01
And i've seen that goes in it tallies really
37:04
well with they look immaculate manicure that
37:07
morning but they're not really engaging but then on the other end
37:10
of the spectrum for some reason i've got the stereotype super hippie guy who's
37:15
got the jostics burning hair just parted just in the hair flies buzzing around
37:21
them because they haven't washed because deodorant's bad for you and it's not
37:24
natural and they're really engaging with the patient but overly empathy you know that's kind of
37:29
like you know where they just look at you and stop for too long or
37:32
just that silence like it gets uncomfortable so it is
37:36
being it's being adaptable isn't it it's finding according to
37:39
that patient where it's going to work between those two sometimes you
37:41
might need to shift towards the gp if it's something serious yeah you know and
37:45
but if it really is trying to develop that trust then yeah you've got to veer
37:49
towards hippie guy at the other end maybe still way deodorant but it just veers
37:53
towards them it's about yeah it's about fluidity and like being a big chameleon
37:58
And like I usually tell my patients,
38:01
it's not a choice of being a top athlete or a couch potato.
38:07
You know, most of the world is somewhere in the middle.
38:13
That's just the bell curve. And getting probably rid of those images,
38:19
those stereotyped images, is possibly what I'm after.
38:24
To understand that, well, most of us are in the middle here and accept that.
38:32
And not accept that and stop trying to get better.
38:38
Accept that and do our best.
38:42
Instead of of.
38:45
Going towards one end or the other yeah if
38:49
that makes sense oh definitely no it makes great sense um
38:52
anna maria has got a few points here which
38:55
are worth reading out for the listeners who can't see the live chat anna maria
38:58
makes a comment saying why is that not showing up oh there we go i think our
39:04
predetermined view and perception of professionalism does not align any longer
39:07
with modern society how the society behaves speaks and communicates yeah and
39:12
that's a good Good question.
39:13
The talk I had with, oh, good point, not a question.
39:17
The discussion I had with Oliver Thompson, where he said that he thinks that
39:22
maybe our regulation system, our big view,
39:27
hasn't been able to really cope or hang or get to grips with like social media.
39:34
It's true. And the different communication styles we have today.
39:38
And so I think it's a good point because professionalism is based on how our
39:45
professions develop and establish ourselves,
39:50
within within our let's base is a hierarchy of medicine and we're not there anymore,
39:57
there's more and more research coming out just expanding the the idea of humans as as complex and
40:07
for basically insane creatures as we are.
40:14
And it shows more and more that being heard,
40:19
being seen, or feel like you're being heard, feel like you're being seen,
40:24
is more important than finding exactly the bottom of it, or something like that. Yeah.
40:32
So it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy.
40:37
And Maria talks about, about predetermined. This is what I thought about the,
40:41
the, the stereotypes, how we perceive reality.
40:46
And I like to be in my relaxed way.
40:49
I like to be one of the, or a small part of making that change.
40:56
So it wasn't conventional. It didn't work a certain time, But he looked at me,
41:02
he talked to me, he understood me, or he tried to understand me, he believed in me.
41:09
He said he was unsure, but he accepted I have a problem and this isn't right.
41:17
But he didn't know, but we'll continue together to find out.
41:24
We need to move more there than being grown up on defending a place in the medical hierarchy.
41:35
Yeah. Makes sense. I like it. You definitely, yeah, put a strong argument out there.
41:41
I was thinking that a lot of our conversation is going to be on swearing,
41:44
but the more you talk about examples which don't involve swearing,
41:48
I'm seeing how swearing kind of fits into that to a certain extent as well.
41:51
Well, I still personally, I don't know why, it's probably a case of looking
41:56
more at why I do feel uncomfortably, but I can't imagine myself swearing with any client,
42:01
even if they came in and they're, I still wouldn't as a professional for whatever
42:07
reason. Maybe I've been indoctrinated by public school.
42:09
I don't know, whatever it was. That's still you.
42:12
You're more relaxed if you don't swear.
42:14
Yeah. So that's okay.
42:19
Right. We talked about it just before we began the live casting.
42:23
I'm from Norway, and particularly I'm from the north of Norway.
42:28
So everything, well, I used to say that everything south of the Arctic Circle was southness for me.
42:36
I grew up, yeah, way above that.
42:40
And in my everyday speech, in modern culture, there is a lot of swear.
42:48
I remember my dad yelling at us kids and alright here comes,
42:57
some swearing just so you listeners be prepared and I remember him saying just,
43:06
won't you shut the fuck up kids you can't be fucking swearing every fucking
43:11
single sentence you little shit and of course that was That was fuel to the
43:17
fire, wasn't it? Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
43:19
So for me, it's natural. I need to...
43:25
The funny thing is that to not swear is a more active thought for me than to swear.
43:33
And since that's my natural type of language, I tend to do it.
43:40
I've never thought of it. It's just... It's my culture. Sure,
43:44
it's something like that.
43:46
But I met people from the South, Norway, and I know I need to retain it.
43:53
So I'm not like, swear as much as you can. I need to...
44:00
But chameleon, again, we come back to chameleon, right? So I,
44:04
yeah, I'd hinder my swearing. I do.
44:09
Which is funny. Yeah, and even if swearing has proven to be a painkiller,
44:15
reduce your pain, there's... With the right person, yeah.
44:19
With the right person. And the funny thing about that is that swearing is strong
44:24
to be a really good painkiller for people that not usually swear.
44:29
Really? you have to send me a link to that yeah i'll
44:31
send it sounds to me the kind of paper that people who love swearing kind
44:34
of shut out there because there's no example of course but i'll
44:38
read it because in support of my bias don't don't
44:41
look into it man no you send me i
44:44
want to read it i love challenging my biases i know that swearing is one of
44:47
them especially now i've got like a nine-year-old and a seven-year-old so it's
44:50
a real conscious thing like my my my i've got members of the family who want
44:54
to take my nine-year-old to football but me personally i don't want to be the
44:58
the dad who puts my son into a situation where 10,000 people around them swearing for 90 minutes.
45:04
To me, it seems irresponsible, but there is a discussion saying that that's
45:08
what people do. Why are you going to shelter him from that?
45:11
But for me, I'm like, well, that's what I'm saying.
45:15
I've got two daughters myself. One is six and one is three.
45:18
And I've never sheltered them from swearing. And that's been a conscious choice
45:22
from my side because I know that kids will swear. They will find swear words.
45:28
They will do it. But I've done a conscious decision to not hinder my swearing
45:35
because I don't want them to find it like I learned a new word.
45:43
It's just so...
45:45
Can swear but swearing in like the proper context and and i've tried not to make it a special thing,
45:55
for them it's not interesting for them so my kids my six-year-old is and this is the,
46:03
paradox of my world is that she's she's who has the least of her friends and i swear the most.
46:10
Of their dads so it's
46:13
like yeah i don't know did you ever find and
46:16
this again it's this i don't want to show just to end on
46:19
a debate about swearing but i sometimes find that swearing i love it when people
46:25
manage to get their point across using even if it's anger using words which
46:30
aren't swearing swearing kind of a limitation of vocabulary once you said f
46:33
in this it's kind of like yeah i get you're really angry but if you manage to
46:36
use some kind of really clever or other vocabulary.
46:39
I just find that more impressive. I just think sometimes... And actually,
46:44
in Northern Norway, there's some whole art to it.
46:48
So if we could swear without using swear words, it's a whole art form.
46:55
It's kind of celebrated.
46:57
But it resolves a lot around cats, dogs, and what the devil if you're in hell. Yeah.
47:05
So, yeah, I think it's interesting to get a point across without swearing.
47:09
But, again, I just like, wow.
47:17
Anyway, for those who just joined the podcast and wondered why we're talking
47:20
about swearing, but I do get the point that for therapeutic alliance,
47:24
for being more human, for truly patient-centered care,
47:29
if that person feels more relaxed with swearing and you as a
47:32
third person naturally swear then why should somebody else
47:35
say to you you mustn't say that you know because that's kind
47:38
of going against the idea of putting the patient first just
47:41
because your box doesn't want to be because just because it doesn't work for your boss yeah
47:44
your company then we should we should address maybe the
47:48
company's kind of decisions and the way they're running their company because
47:51
they could be hindering the progress and the processes that
47:54
could be yeah so there's conversations need to
47:57
be had there don't know with bosses which is a tricky one as well because what advice
48:00
would you give imagine people have been listeners there that's the
48:03
thing annemarie swears like a banshee anyway so she's not a good example but
48:06
let's imagine someone else there who doesn't normally swear is thinking actually you
48:10
know what this guy's making sense i'm i'm gonna wear my
48:13
um iron maiden t-shirt tomorrow and some flip-flops
48:16
and i am gonna i've got a client there who loves to swear i'm gonna have a great
48:19
hour swearing there but they work in a clinic with 10 other people and their
48:24
boss is just gonna be can i have a word with you is there a conversation you
48:28
think you should have with your boss Should they tell them to listen to this
48:32
podcast and see whether a serious debate can happen gently?
48:35
Oh, yeah. I think that, you know, be comfortable.
48:44
And if you feel restrained and constricted, there is a conversation to have,
48:52
whether it regards swearing or whether it regards uniforms or stuff like that.
48:58
If you feel constrained have a conversation just like we are at work most of
49:08
our lives and in this economy we probably can't,
49:12
stop working and be pensioners before we're 75 anyway
49:16
so yeah just
49:20
be human you know
49:23
you're a person and what we
49:26
are and what you experience and what you think does matter and you're not a
49:31
piece of equipment you're not a cog in the wheel your person that is loved and
49:38
loves in return your parent your friend and,
49:45
so yeah my tip is if you feel constrained and you don't see how that constraint.
49:52
Is applicable to what you do have that conversation
49:55
yeah definitely gently obviously
49:59
depends on your boss and no no no yeah you break
50:02
into that that conversation naked naked later of course yeah yeah but it's a
50:07
it's as always communication is healthy then you're going to really work your
50:11
communication skills and yeah about time and that is that is under communicate
50:16
in every therapist isn't it communication we're all about diagnosis
50:22
but communication communication communication one more
50:25
which again is which is again like we
50:28
said why is it that probably our bosses are telling
50:31
us don't forget all your clients are individuals treat as individuals but you
50:34
must all wear this you must all talk this way it's another kind of flipping
50:38
on his head the same thing as our boss is saying to all the staff communication
50:42
is really important make sure you listen active listening but then when it comes
50:46
to telling us what to do it's like what are you doing you're not professional
50:48
you don't tell everybody is an individual except you you're a terrorist exactly.
50:54
Strange in it right well look it's nine o'clock that
50:56
flew by so really interesting points there
51:00
yeah you've got me thinking it's very interesting you've
51:03
got me singing good good good yeah that's great so i'm
51:06
hoping that means that some of our couple of thousand
51:08
listeners have been i've got you thinking as well as
51:12
always i've just put that in there if you're listening to the podcast then do please leave
51:15
a rating and review we get so many downloads for sports therapy
51:18
orientated podcasts but the reviews don't reflect that so
51:21
please do just leave a little fire i'll make it easy for
51:24
you just use five five is a wonderful number just put five stars down there
51:27
maybe a little something nice you can even swear in the comments if you like
51:30
i think i don't think that means they'll be deleted maybe not swear just put
51:33
really good i mean that'd be great and just to point out as well i should remind
51:37
listeners that martin will be speaking at therapy expo this november martin
51:40
christensen is it christensen or christensen.
51:43
Oh, of all folks. Christensen. Christensen. Beautiful.
51:47
I will be at Third Fix this November coming all the way from Norway.
51:51
And that includes a Q&A session in the STA Theatre on day two,
51:54
November the 28th at ten past three on this very topic.
51:57
And that will follow on quite nicely. You haven't got to go to the early one
52:00
in the daytime, but Martin will also be in Theatre C at 1.25 on day two with
52:05
a presentation called Practical Professionalism, The Paradox of Being Human
52:08
Within a Healthcare System.
52:10
And we should also give a shout out also on day one, I believe you're in Anna-Maria
52:13
Mazzieri's wonderful Hands On Hub.
52:15
Yeah. I can't remember what time that is going to be. Anna-Maria,
52:18
you might want to chat in the comments so everyone can see. Do you know the
52:20
time? Yeah, I can't remember.
52:23
So if you are going on day one, because some therapists can't make both days,
52:28
but Martin will be at the Hands On Hub.
52:30
I thought you said will not be. I will be on the Hands On Hub. Definitely, yeah.
52:33
And that'll be on day one. So if you're listening, I'm not going on day two.
52:36
Martin will still be there on day one.
52:37
And hopefully this hour has kind of made you think about, Actually,
52:41
that's an hour I want to spend.
52:42
That would be useful to me. Maybe not everybody because there's no such thing
52:45
as a perfect speaker for all of you.
52:46
But if it has touched you and you're thinking, that's something I want to learn
52:49
about, then great opportunity for you, Attending Therapy Expo.
52:54
It's in the afternoon of the day one and reassist. If you want to keep in contact
52:58
with Martin, then we've got a few options on Twitter for X, whatever it's called.
53:04
We've got YouPersonally, which is Martin underscore. I'll put these all in the
53:08
show notes anyway, but Martin underscore Nekolai, which is N-E-K-K-O-L-A-I.
53:12
Or you've got Friday Physio Confession Podcast, which is at the FPC Podcast.
53:18
And then you've also got Instagram, the FPC Podcast, simple.
53:23
And then the website, all of the editions are nice. You could listen to them
53:27
on your innate app if you want, or you could just go to the Friday Physio Confession Podcast.
53:32
.alitu.com. Again, just Google it and it will appear. Nice CD website.
53:37
Anything interesting happening to you between now and November?
53:40
It's only like 75 days, but.
53:42
Well, yeah. Most interesting thing is that today I'm closed down my clinic.
53:47
And we're all here. I'm still in my clinic and leaving the profession,
53:52
but not the professional title as a physiotherapist.
53:54
And I'm starting a new game on Friday.
53:58
So that's the most interesting thing that will happen.
54:01
Starting a new, what you started?
54:03
Starting a job. It's a co-living job with youths that can't live at home for different reasons.
54:10
So it's a acute traumatic center for youths between the ages of 13 and 18.
54:16
And I'll be working with them, getting them active, getting them,
54:21
yes, sort of do the homework at school.
54:26
Yeah, making them feel secure and respected and air.
54:30
So I'm thinking in the same way as Alistair draws parallels and interesting
54:37
take-homes from working with, for example, people who can't communicate.
54:40
He did a wonderful presentation last year on
54:43
what people who work with able-bodied people can
54:46
take away from practitioners who work with people with
54:49
learning disabilities there's a lot there i imagine the same thing is with
54:52
the people you're gonna be working with you know when it comes to communication
54:55
and reacting to patients there's gonna be so many take-homes so i'm sure you're
54:59
still going to be filling twitter and so on with bits of advice and i'm not
55:04
i'm not I honestly believe without sounding like a horn that we need,
55:13
we need some failure or something. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you.
55:18
No, fantastic. And I think anyone who'd listened to you even tonight,
55:21
but across years, not surprised at all. You're wonderfully.
55:24
I mean, obviously we know because of Richard Dawkins, there's no such thing
55:27
as altruism, but you're as close as we can get to altruism. So I think that's really healthy.
55:32
So thank you very much for giving up your time tonight. Next week,
55:35
people, I'm not quite sure who the guest is yet.
55:38
It will be somebody from therapy. I just got to finalize him or her or them.
55:41
So best thing to do, if you listen to the podcast just follow us
55:44
on at uk underscore sta and i
55:47
will put all the information out there um and if you
55:50
do want to join us live then just look out on go to the
55:52
youtube channel sta youtube sports service association youtube
55:55
channel and subscribe there and you'll get notifications when i book uh the
55:59
next episode on but it will be tuesday eight o'clock so that's the time to look
56:04
out for so it just takes me once again to thank everyone who joined us live
56:07
thanks maria and cecily and nikki and everyone else and who joined us oh and
56:11
And of course, Alistair as well. Thanks very much. No, no.
56:15
I've got to find a date, actually. Alistair, do you want to come in next month?
56:17
Is it Tuesday? It's a bit late, Alistair. No, I'm not going to Alistair. No.
56:21
Can you not do that Tuesday? No, I've got too much publicity left,
56:24
Alistair. Really? Don't worry about Alistair. Oh, I forget Alistair.
56:27
Sorry, not related. Yeah, yeah. If you're right.
56:30
If you do Alistair, honestly, there's a gap there. But yeah,
56:33
thank you most of all to Martin Christensen for giving us your time.
56:36
Really appreciate it, mate.
56:37
Thanks for having me. It's been a blast.
56:39
Good conversation. and it's nice to finally meet you and put a face on,
56:45
well, you have your face on your profile pic, but good looking, man.
56:50
Yeah. Thank you very much. That's very kind. Yeah, I bet you say that to all of your podcast guests.
56:54
But anyway, cheers, mate. And we'll hopefully have a little follow-up and definitely
56:58
get together in about 75 days.
57:02
Yeah, definitely. Amazing. Thanks, everyone. Look after each other and hopefully see you soon. Bye.
57:08
Music.