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“A dirty, filthy, disgusting word.” · Pod Save America

0:20
Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:22
Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
0:23
Speaker 3: Later in the pod, our interview with Veep's Julia Louis-Dreyfus
0:26
Speaker 3: and showrunner David Mandel. They stopped by the office yesterday,
0:30
Speaker 3: and as you'll hear, we pretty much laughed the entire time.
0:33
Speaker 3: It was one of my favorite interviews. But first, we've
0:36
Speaker 3: got some big news to get through. Robert Mueller's first
0:39
Speaker 3: words in two years. The political case for impeachment in
0:42
Speaker 3: the Democratic Party's new qualifications for the fall debates. In
0:46
Speaker 3: other pod news, we've released an interview on Wednesday between
0:49
Speaker 3: Dan and Amy Klobuchar. I'll also be talking with presidential
0:53
Speaker 3: candidate Marianne Williamson on Friday, and you'll be able to
0:56
Speaker 3: hear my conversation with her later that afternoon. On the
0:59
Speaker 3: newest episode of Pod Save the World, Tommy and Ben
1:02
Speaker 3: explain the recent European Parliament elections, analyze Trump's trip to Japan,
1:07
Speaker 3: and try to understand why he's micromanaging the construction of
1:11
Speaker 3: our aircraft carriers.
1:13
Speaker 1: Weird.
1:14
Speaker 3: And finally, the newest Crooked Media podcast, This Land, premieres
1:18
Speaker 3: this coming Monday, June 3rd. It's a story from Cherokee
1:23
Speaker 3: journalist Rebecca Nagel about two crimes and an imminent Supreme
1:26
Speaker 3: Court decision could come any week now that will determine
1:29
Speaker 3: the fate of five tribes and nearly half the land
1:32
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma. It's an important story about how this country
1:37
Speaker 3: treats Native people and their land. It's riveting. It's beautifully told.
1:42
Speaker 3: So please go subscribe now. Listen to the trailer wherever
1:45
Speaker 3: you get your podcasts. Or you can just go to thislandpodcast.com.
1:50
Speaker 1: To subscribe.
1:51
Speaker 3: Make sure it's on your phone and ready for Monday
1:53
Speaker 3: morning when the first episode drops. Trust me, you won't
1:56
Speaker 3: want to miss this one, so please go subscribe.
1:58
Speaker 2: I subscribed.
1:59
Speaker 1: One last thing. You subscribed? Thank you. See, Dan subscribed.
2:02
Speaker 4: I did.
2:02
Speaker 1: I'm very excited.
2:03
Speaker 3: All of you should subscribe, too. For next week, we're
2:05
Speaker 3: on the road again. I can't believe we're already on
2:07
Speaker 3: the road again. Oh, my God. You can catch Love
2:10
Speaker 3: It or Leave It in Minneapolis and catch Pod Save
2:12
Speaker 3: America in Chicago, Minneapolis, and Des Moines. There's still a
2:16
Speaker 3: few tickets left, I believe, at cricket.com slash events, so
2:20
Speaker 3: Go scoop up those tickets and then come say hi.
2:24
Speaker 3: We'll be flying around the Midwest.
2:26
Speaker 2: One more thing before we get to the news.
2:27
Speaker 1: Sure.
2:29
Speaker 2: I watched Running with Beto last night.
2:33
Speaker 1: Wasn't it great?
2:34
Speaker 2: It was really great. And I would encourage people, whether
2:37
Speaker 2: they support Beto for president or they support someone else,
2:40
Speaker 2: they don't know who they're supporting yet, to watch it
2:42
Speaker 2: for a couple of reasons. One, it's just really, it's
2:45
Speaker 2: a really good film. But I thought it captured two
2:49
Speaker 2: things really well. that I think people will really enjoy.
2:52
Speaker 2: One is the moment in time that was 2018 and
2:57
Speaker 2: people's reaction to what happened in 2016 and just sort
3:00
Speaker 2: of regular everyday people getting involved in politics to try
3:04
Speaker 2: to put this country back on the right track. And second,
3:07
Speaker 2: what it's like to be on a campaign. The highs,
3:10
Speaker 2: the lows, the exhaustion, the frustration, the excitement, and ultimately,
3:16
Speaker 2: as happens in a lot of campaigns, the heartbreak. I mean,
3:20
Speaker 2: I'm sure this was true for you in watching it,
3:22
Speaker 2: but having worked on campaigns where you pour your entire
3:26
Speaker 2: being into them and then having them come up short
3:28
Speaker 2: is just so hard. So I thought it was really great,
3:33
Speaker 2: and I would encourage people to watch it. And I
3:35
Speaker 2: was excited to see your name in the credits.
3:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the reason that we wanted to help
3:42
Speaker 3: co-produce this in the first place is The filmmaker David
3:46
Speaker 3: Modigliani came to us when no one really knew who
3:49
Speaker 3: Beto was, and we barely knew who Beto was, and
3:53
Speaker 3: said he was going to make this documentary about people
3:55
Speaker 3: in Texas working for this long-shot candidate in the wake
3:59
Speaker 3: of 2016. And it's sort of everything that we talk
4:02
Speaker 3: about here at Crooked Media and Pod Save America about
4:05
Speaker 3: getting involved and joining a campaign and fighting the odds
4:09
Speaker 3: to fight for what you believe in. And, um, and so,
4:13
Speaker 3: you know, we jumped on then and I think, you know,
4:15
Speaker 3: David told an incredible story about people in Texas, um,
4:21
Speaker 3: working for what they believe in. And so, and the,
4:23
Speaker 3: you know, the documentary doesn't just follow Beto. It follows, uh,
4:25
Speaker 3: three volunteers who worked on the campaign who all have
4:28
Speaker 3: pretty powerful stories on their own. So, uh, it's a
4:31
Speaker 3: great film. Uh, definitely check it out on HBO.
4:34
Speaker 5: Okay.
4:35
Speaker 1: Let's get to the news on Wednesday.
4:38
Speaker 3: Special Counsel Robert Mueller spoke publicly for the first time
4:41
Speaker 3: in two years to announce his retirement and send an
4:44
Speaker 3: implicit but unmistakable message to Congress about impeachment. Do your
4:49
Speaker 3: damn job. Here are some key parts of his statement. Quote,
4:54
Speaker 3: The Russian military launched a concerted attack on our political system.
4:58
Speaker 3: The matters we investigated were of paramount importance. And when
5:02
Speaker 3: a subject of an investigation obstructs that investigation... or lies
5:07
Speaker 3: to investigators, it strikes at the core of the government's
5:10
Speaker 3: effort to find the truth and hold wrongdoers accountable. And
5:14
Speaker 3: he says that on the question of whether the president
5:16
Speaker 3: obstructed justice himself, quote, if we had confidence that the
5:20
Speaker 3: president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have
5:23
Speaker 3: said so. Mueller goes on to say that the reason
5:26
Speaker 3: he didn't make a determination about whether Trump committed a
5:28
Speaker 3: crime is because, quote, under a longstanding department policy, a
5:34
Speaker 3: president cannot be charged with a federal crime while he
5:36
Speaker 3: is in office. The opinion says that the Constitution requires
5:40
Speaker 3: a process other than the criminal justice system to formally
5:44
Speaker 3: accuse a sitting president of wrongdoing. So it would be
5:47
Speaker 3: unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there
5:50
Speaker 3: can be no court resolution of the actual charge. Mueller
5:54
Speaker 3: also said that he doesn't plan on speaking publicly again
5:57
Speaker 3: because his 400-page report speaks for itself.
6:01
Speaker 5: Dan.
6:02
Speaker 3: Why did Mueller, after two years and about a month
6:06
Speaker 3: since the report itself came out, decide to give the statement?
6:09
Speaker 3: What was he trying to achieve here, do you think?
6:13
Speaker 2: I think he was trying to go on vacation. I
6:16
Speaker 2: think Memorial Day weekend has passed us. He's probably got
6:18
Speaker 2: a home at the shore. He wanted to get there.
6:21
Speaker 2: I think, so like I say, that's half in jest,
6:24
Speaker 2: which is I think he is trying to put a
6:26
Speaker 2: coda on this part of his life and move on.
6:30
Speaker 2: And he's basically, he is saying, as you point out, uh,
6:33
Speaker 2: in the preamble here that he's saying to Nancy Pelosi
6:37
Speaker 2: and the congressional Democrats, I did my job. It's time
6:40
Speaker 2: for you to do yours. It's up to you. I
6:42
Speaker 2: have put the ball in your court. You can do
6:43
Speaker 2: with it whenever you want. And, but let me be
6:46
Speaker 2: very clear. I was giving this to you, which he
6:51
Speaker 2: should have been clearer about in the report or it,
6:54
Speaker 2: or not waited nine weeks to speak, but the message
6:57
Speaker 2: is clear. And I think he's, he is ready to
6:59
Speaker 2: move on. And, uh, let the next part of this
7:02
Speaker 2: process take place if that's the path Democrats choose, which
7:06
Speaker 2: we'll discuss why they should do that later.
7:08
Speaker 3: Yeah. And I think what he chose to emphasize in
7:11
Speaker 3: his eight minute statement versus the 400 page report that
7:14
Speaker 3: he wrote is important too. You know, he says a
7:16
Speaker 3: few times at the beginning and the end about how,
7:19
Speaker 3: you know, Russia, the Russian military, the Russian government launched
7:23
Speaker 3: this concerted, consistent attack on our political system And then
7:28
Speaker 3: he said obstructing the investigation into who's behind that attack
7:33
Speaker 3: and who was responsible for it is a very serious misdeed.
7:39
Speaker 3: And basically what he lays out is if Trump had
7:42
Speaker 3: succeeded in obstructing the investigation, if Trump had succeeded in
7:48
Speaker 3: firing Bob Mueller, if Don McGahn and all his Trump
7:52
Speaker 3: subordinates had carried out his wishes to fire Bob Mueller
7:55
Speaker 3: and to make sure that the investigation was only focused
7:59
Speaker 3: on future election interference, which the report says Trump wanted
8:02
Speaker 3: to do, then Bob Mueller never would have been able
8:06
Speaker 3: to indict the Russian hackers, the Russian military, all the
8:10
Speaker 3: people in Russia that were responsible for breaking into the
8:14
Speaker 3: democratic email system, stealing emails, disseminating stolen emails, and then
8:18
Speaker 3: launching the social media campaign, propaganda campaign to sway the election.
8:22
Speaker 3: And so, you know, Mueller actually doing justice, finding the
8:26
Speaker 3: people responsible, for the attack on our political system would
8:30
Speaker 3: not have been possible if the President of the United
8:33
Speaker 3: States had his way in obstructive justice. And I think
8:35
Speaker 3: he's trying to tell us that is a very serious offense.
8:40
Speaker 2: That's right. And the question will be if anyone's going
8:43
Speaker 2: to listen. I will say that Bob Mueller could have
8:50
Speaker 2: been clearer on this point, and he could have been
8:52
Speaker 2: clearer earlier on this point, right? Because a lot of people, like,
8:55
Speaker 2: I feel like you and I got the message, but
8:57
Speaker 2: a lot of people didn't. A lot of the reporting
8:59
Speaker 2: is trying to read it like it's some sort of code. Like,
9:03
Speaker 2: what can we divine from this when he's pretty explicit?
9:05
Speaker 2: It is certainly not clear that Democratic leaders took the message.
9:10
Speaker 2: Some of the reporting is unclear. And this is both
9:16
Speaker 2: the benefit and the– or this is just the positive
9:20
Speaker 2: and the negative of having someone like Bob Mueller– do
9:24
Speaker 2: this investigation. He is theoretically, although only in theory, not
9:28
Speaker 2: in reality, above reproach in the public sphere. He should
9:33
Speaker 2: have been an unimpeachable investigator if we were living in
9:35
Speaker 2: normal political times. He's someone with a reputation that is
9:39
Speaker 2: so good that the Senate, in a huge bipartisan vote,
9:43
Speaker 2: voted to extend his term as FBI director because he
9:46
Speaker 2: was so good at the job. A Republican, someone that
9:48
Speaker 2: would have been appointed by George W. Bush, extended by Obama.
9:51
Speaker 5: He is.
9:52
Speaker 2: the ultimate nonpartisan figure, even if he is a Republican,
9:58
Speaker 2: but because he is a nonpartisan figure. he was much
10:01
Speaker 2: more subtle, much less explicit, and left some room both
10:06
Speaker 2: in his... Not what he wrote in the report, but
10:10
Speaker 2: in the way in which he presented the report, and
10:13
Speaker 2: the way in which he allowed institutional figures like Bill
10:17
Speaker 2: Barr to.
10:19
Speaker 2: Spin his report for him, he left more questions about
10:23
Speaker 2: what he intended than he should have. And I think
10:25
Speaker 2: that's still true today, despite today's statement.
10:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that Mueller's biggest mistake was allowing that
10:30
Speaker 3: four-page letter from William Barr to be released before his
10:34
Speaker 3: executive summaries, and then after that four-page letter was released,
10:37
Speaker 3: not responding immediately to correct the record.
10:39
Speaker 1: That was his mistake.
10:40
Speaker 3: I do think in the statement he delivered yesterday, it
10:43
Speaker 3: could not be more clear than the sentence that The
10:46
Speaker 3: opinion says that the Constitution requires a process other than
10:49
Speaker 3: the criminal justice system to formally accuse the sitting president
10:52
Speaker 3: of wrongdoing. I mean, it screams impeachment. That is the
10:56
Speaker 3: process he's talking about right there. And look, I get
10:59
Speaker 3: the box he's in because of the Justice Department guidelines, right?
11:03
Speaker 3: He feels that it's unfair to accuse a sitting president
11:08
Speaker 3: of a crime if that person cannot then defend themselves
11:12
Speaker 3: using a normal court process. And so therefore he does,
11:16
Speaker 3: that's even why he can't say, Congress, it's your job
11:20
Speaker 3: to impeach him and say the word impeachment deferral, because
11:22
Speaker 3: even that, and the Washington Post says this, Mueller's team
11:26
Speaker 3: believe that even that was accusing the president of a
11:30
Speaker 3: crime without the president being able to defend himself through
11:33
Speaker 3: a normal court process. So Mueller did everything he could
11:37
Speaker 3: to basically say, here's the evidence that the president committed
11:40
Speaker 3: a crime, but I can't say that the president committed
11:42
Speaker 3: a crime because I can't charge him because he's a
11:44
Speaker 3: sitting president because of this stupid fucking opinion. Well, I
11:48
Speaker 3: don't know if he thinks it's a stupid fucking opinion,
11:49
Speaker 3: but it is. So you can see the box he's in.
11:53
Speaker 3: So I sort of understand that. I can't understand why
11:57
Speaker 3: either reporters, Democrats in Congress, I can understand why Republicans
12:01
Speaker 3: do this because they are conspiracy theorists and are willfully
12:04
Speaker 3: ignorant of this, but I can't understand why there are
12:06
Speaker 3: any mixed messages coming from what he said yesterday. It
12:09
Speaker 3: seemed pretty clear to me.
12:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is the hard part of undoing first impressions.
12:17
Speaker 1: That's right.
12:18
Speaker 2: We would be in an entirely different world. It would
12:20
Speaker 2: probably be weeks into an impeachment inquiry right now if
12:24
Speaker 2: the way this had played out was he had submitted
12:27
Speaker 2: his letter or his report to Bill Barr and Rod
12:31
Speaker 2: Rosenstein and then made this statement on that Friday night
12:35
Speaker 2: or that Sunday either before or contemporaneous to Bill Barr
12:41
Speaker 2: sending out his letter. And if he had done that,
12:43
Speaker 2: then we would be in a different world. Or if
12:46
Speaker 2: he had let it be known to the public that
12:49
Speaker 2: he disagreed with the characterization of the report in real
12:53
Speaker 2: time instead of waiting weeks to do so. And so
12:56
Speaker 2: I understand the box he's in. And we really should
13:00
Speaker 2: be thankful to Bob Mueller for his service to this
13:02
Speaker 2: country throughout his entire life, including taking on what is
13:05
Speaker 2: a thankless but very important job, even beyond just accountability
13:08
Speaker 2: to President Trump, but finding out, but holding people accountable
13:12
Speaker 2: Russian entities and Russian individuals accountable for what happened in
13:15
Speaker 2: the election. But there is a world in which you
13:18
Speaker 2: have to understand that what is happening is not on
13:22
Speaker 2: the level and adjust your tactics as such. And so
13:26
Speaker 2: like writing a letter to Bill Barr saying you want
13:29
Speaker 2: your summaries out, but then Bill Barr ignoring you and
13:32
Speaker 2: then writing another letter and then just saying, well, I
13:34
Speaker 2: tried is not sufficient. if you believe in the work
13:38
Speaker 2: that you did. And it's the same thing goes to
13:40
Speaker 2: the question of his testimony, right? I understand why he
13:42
Speaker 2: doesn't want to testify, but that is not how the
13:46
Speaker 2: world works. And if you truly believe that this is
13:48
Speaker 2: really important, that the work you did was important, it
13:51
Speaker 2: should stand on itself and the public and the Congress
13:54
Speaker 2: should make a decision based on the work itself, not
13:56
Speaker 2: on the propagandization of the work by Trump, Bill Barr
14:00
Speaker 2: and Fox News, then you got to speak for that
14:02
Speaker 2: work yourself. And there's not a substitute for that that
14:05
Speaker 2: is appropriate in this day and age.
14:07
Speaker 3: What do you think Democrats should do about his reluctance
14:09
Speaker 3: to testify? How much does his testimony matter at this point?
14:14
Speaker 2: I think what we know from yesterday is his testimony
14:16
Speaker 2: matters a lot. If he just sat in a chair
14:19
Speaker 2: and read all 400 pages of the report out loud,
14:22
Speaker 2: I think it would be very dramatic and important. Does
14:24
Speaker 2: it mean it shifts all of the public opinion in
14:26
Speaker 2: favor of impeachment? No, not necessarily. But a person is
14:30
Speaker 2: a better messenger than a PDF. And so having him
14:33
Speaker 2: do that would be good. I think we have to
14:35
Speaker 2: set expectations in our own minds as consumers and the
14:39
Speaker 2: congresspeople do and theirs that Bob Mueller is not Jim Comey.
14:43
Speaker 2: He is not going to preen for the cameras. He's
14:45
Speaker 2: not going to try to be dramatic. He is going
14:48
Speaker 2: to be as boring as he possibly can. But I
14:51
Speaker 2: think as we saw from yesterday that there's so much
14:54
Speaker 2: confusion around this. There's so much bullshit that just saying
14:57
Speaker 2: the words out loud in a mostly clear way helps
15:02
Speaker 2: cut through that bullshit. So I think he will be
15:04
Speaker 2: getting a subpoena one way or the other. And Adam Schiff, basically,
15:08
Speaker 2: as I heard yesterday, said, great, I look forward to
15:11
Speaker 2: hearing from Bob Mueller soon. So I think they're going
15:13
Speaker 2: to make him come testify in some way, shape, or form.
15:17
Speaker 3: I think the more nonpartisan and boring Bob Mueller is
15:19
Speaker 3: during his testimony, the more politically effective it will be, frankly.
15:23
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that James Comey was less politically
15:25
Speaker 3: effective because he decided to go after Trump talk about
15:30
Speaker 3: his fucking tanning goggles, all that bullshit. I mean, you know,
15:34
Speaker 3: he did sound in a way like he had joined
15:37
Speaker 3: the resistance at some point. And Bob Mueller, being nonpartisan
15:42
Speaker 3: and just reading or reiterating the conclusions from his report
15:45
Speaker 3: in front of Congress, yeah, look what an eight-minute statement
15:49
Speaker 3: did yesterday. This is also, I mean, we're going to
15:51
Speaker 3: talk about this later, but it's another argument for the
15:56
Speaker 3: power of impeachment hearings. in an age of television and media,
16:03
Speaker 3: where people aren't reading a 400-page report, but when something
16:06
Speaker 3: is televised live for weeks at a time, and it's
16:11
Speaker 3: all over cable, and it's all over Twitter, and it's
16:14
Speaker 3: all the news and information that most Americans are consuming,
16:17
Speaker 3: it has a much, much bigger impact on people than
16:22
Speaker 3: any kind of report that Bob Mueller could release. And
16:25
Speaker 3: I think Democrats are probably underestimating the power of televised
16:30
Speaker 3: hearings that lay out for the American people exactly what
16:34
Speaker 3: misdeeds and crimes the president committed.
16:38
Speaker 2: And they shouldn't be because the original approach that the
16:43
Speaker 2: Democratic leadership in the Congress proposed was as either a
16:48
Speaker 2: substitute for or a preamble to impeachment would be a
16:53
Speaker 2: series of very high-profile televised hearings with star witnesses to
16:57
Speaker 2: pull on the threads of the Mueller report and other
17:01
Speaker 2: associated Trump crimes and corruption. So like that was the
17:04
Speaker 2: plan they wanted. Don McGahn in front of the Senate
17:08
Speaker 2: or the House Judiciary Committee, Bob Mueller in front of
17:11
Speaker 2: the House Judiciary Committee, Donald Trump Jr. in front of
17:15
Speaker 2: the House Intelligence. Like that was the plan.
17:17
Speaker 5: Yeah.
17:18
Speaker 2: But that is not that plan has not worked out
17:20
Speaker 2: for a host of reasons that also leads you to
17:24
Speaker 2: the path of impeachment.
17:25
Speaker 5: Yep.
17:26
Speaker 3: So another reason we know that Mueller's statement was a
17:28
Speaker 3: big deal is that Trump dropped his total exoneration bit
17:32
Speaker 3: and tweeted immediately after the statement, quote, there was insufficient
17:36
Speaker 3: evidence and therefore in our country, a person is innocent.
17:39
Speaker 1: The case is closed.
17:40
Speaker 3: Thank you. And then today, waking up to this was fun. Today,
17:48
Speaker 3: he tweeted, I had nothing to do with Russia helping
17:51
Speaker 3: me get elected.
17:55
Speaker 5: Whoops.
17:57
Speaker 3: And then he goes out to the White House South
18:00
Speaker 3: Lawn and he gives a little impromptu press conference to reporters.
18:05
Speaker 3: And I believe we have a clip of that that
18:08
Speaker 3: we're going to play right now.
18:09
Speaker 5: To me, it's a dirty word.
18:10
Speaker 2: The word impeach.
18:11
Speaker 6: It's a dirty, filthy, disgusting word. And it had nothing
18:15
Speaker 6: to do with me. So I don't think so, because
18:19
Speaker 6: there was no crime. You know, it's high crimes and
18:22
Speaker 6: not with or or. It's high crimes and misdemeanors. There
18:27
Speaker 6: was no high crime and there was no misdemeanor. So
18:30
Speaker 6: how do you impeach based on that? And it came
18:33
Speaker 6: out that there was nothing to do with Russia. The
18:36
Speaker 6: whole thing is a scam. It's a giant presidential harassment.
18:41
Speaker 6: And honestly, I hope it goes down as one of
18:44
Speaker 6: my greatest achievements. Because I've exposed corruption. I've exposed corruption
18:51
Speaker 6: like nobody knew existed.
18:53
Speaker 3: Can I just say something? There's obviously a lot of
18:56
Speaker 3: problems with that statement. But maybe the biggest is that
18:59
Speaker 3: under Trump's definition of what constitutes an impeachable offense... You
19:04
Speaker 3: can commit a high crime, but if you don't also
19:07
Speaker 3: commit a misdemeanor, you're off the hook.
19:10
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just so much to unpack there. First,
19:19
Speaker 2: our anti-immigrant America first president would undoubtedly fail the citizenship test.
19:27
Speaker 5: Undoubtedly.
19:27
Speaker 2: Like just no concept of how anything within our government works.
19:32
Speaker 2: Which is scary because he's in charge of the government.
19:35
Speaker 2: He also is just the king of the self-owned. You
19:42
Speaker 2: mentioned previous where he, in an attempt to defend himself,
19:45
Speaker 2: finally admits that Russia helped him win. Here he says
19:49
Speaker 2: he exposed a lot. of corruption, which is true. It's
19:52
Speaker 2: just his corruption.
19:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, his obstruction did succeed in exposing his own corruption.
20:00
Speaker 3: So that's a big win for him. No, I mean,
20:02
Speaker 3: but does that statement sound like the statement of someone
20:06
Speaker 3: who is goading Democrats into impeachment because he thinks it
20:10
Speaker 3: will be politically beneficial for him.
20:13
Speaker 2: No, that has been one of, I think the worst
20:16
Speaker 2: arguments against impeachment is that it's what Trump wants.
20:20
Speaker 6: Yeah.
20:21
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it's what he wants.
20:23
Speaker 2: There is a very real debate about what is good
20:25
Speaker 2: or bad politically, and we will have that. But just
20:28
Speaker 2: if you know anything about Trump, the idea that he
20:31
Speaker 2: would– he can't even fathom the idea that he is
20:35
Speaker 2: one of a tiny handful of presidents who won the
20:36
Speaker 2: Electoral College and lost the popular vote. He has had
20:39
Speaker 2: to construct an X-Files-style conspiracy to justify that black mark
20:45
Speaker 2: on his presidential record. So imagine how he would act.
20:49
Speaker 2: if he were to become one of three presidents who
20:51
Speaker 2: had to wear the scarlet eye of impeachment, like there's
20:54
Speaker 2: no way he wants that. Like he, in his mind,
20:57
Speaker 2: like the constant, so much of Trump's behavior is trying
21:00
Speaker 2: to navigate the dissonance between the reality of Trump with
21:05
Speaker 2: like of who he is, how bad a president he is,
21:07
Speaker 2: how dumb he is, what a poor imitation of his
21:10
Speaker 2: own father he is. And the reality in his own
21:13
Speaker 2: mind that he is about to be, have his head
21:15
Speaker 2: carved into Mount Rushmore. And whenever Trump, he falls into
21:19
Speaker 2: the area between those and that dissonance comes through is
21:21
Speaker 2: when he acts like a lunatic. And so impeachment is
21:23
Speaker 2: most certainly something that he would dread because it makes
21:27
Speaker 2: it harder to abide the fantasy that he is somehow
21:32
Speaker 2: not a giant fucking loser.
21:35
Speaker 3: He would be the only president in history to have
21:39
Speaker 3: won the presidency while losing the popular vote and getting impeached.
21:46
Speaker 3: And by his own admission, having a foreign government helped
21:49
Speaker 3: him get elected in the first place.
21:52
Speaker 2: That is a very specific category. That is very much
21:57
Speaker 2: like what is in vogue in sports statistics now when
22:01
Speaker 2: they're like, Steph Curry is the first player under 6'4
22:07
Speaker 2: to average 28 points, five rebounds, and three steals. Like, yes,
22:12
Speaker 2: he would be the one president to do that.
22:14
Speaker 3: Well, it also goes to the core of what he
22:16
Speaker 3: cares about, which is the legitimacy of his presidency. Because
22:20
Speaker 3: if then you look at his presidency and say, okay, well,
22:24
Speaker 3: the guy won without winning the popular vote. He won
22:27
Speaker 3: because a foreign government helped him get elected. And then
22:30
Speaker 3: he got impeached. That doesn't make him feel very good
22:33
Speaker 3: about his presidency. He also, by the way, said, it
22:37
Speaker 3: wasn't part of that clip, but he said of impeachment,
22:40
Speaker 3: the courts will never allow it.
22:43
Speaker 4: Right.
22:43
Speaker 1: Hey, buddy. Courts, they do not have anything to do
22:46
Speaker 1: with it. I'm sorry. Except for the fact that.
22:48
Speaker 2: That is a little bit of him saying the quiet
22:52
Speaker 2: part out loud, which is he knows and McConnell knows,
22:56
Speaker 2: Republican Party knows, that they have been stacking the courts
22:59
Speaker 2: in his favor. And he's basically looking at Pennsylvania Avenue
23:02
Speaker 2: at the Supreme Court. And in his head, he knows,
23:04
Speaker 2: I put Brett Kavanaugh on there and Neil Gorsuch and
23:06
Speaker 2: Mitch McConnell stole that seat from Obama. So- Like, I
23:09
Speaker 2: have immunity by court theft.
23:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, what's the problem?
23:12
Speaker 2: I think he really does think that. That's just why
23:14
Speaker 2: he's so fucking outraged when all of his unconstitutional illegal
23:18
Speaker 2: acts get overturned in court. Because he's like, I put
23:21
Speaker 2: all my judges, right? He calls them his judges. I
23:24
Speaker 2: put my judges on the court, and why aren't I
23:26
Speaker 2: getting rulings that are in my favor? And so I
23:29
Speaker 2: do think he thinks the courts will protect him because
23:31
Speaker 2: he has stacked the courts.
23:33
Speaker 3: Just wait until John Roberts, the Chief Justice of the
23:35
Speaker 3: Supreme Court, presides over the uh trial in the senate
23:39
Speaker 3: and trump starts saying like why is crooked john roberts
23:42
Speaker 3: there why isn't brett kavanaugh presiding over the thing he's
23:46
Speaker 3: not he's he doesn't get how any of this works
23:49
Speaker 3: all right so let's talk about the democrats and what
24:02
Speaker 3: they should do now um Just about all the major
24:05
Speaker 3: presidential candidates put out statements supportive of impeachment to various
24:09
Speaker 3: degrees yesterday. Two more House Democratic chairmen announced their support
24:14
Speaker 3: for impeachment, bringing the pro-impeachment vote in the House to
24:18
Speaker 3: around 40, 41, 42 Democrats and one Republican, Justin Amash.
24:24
Speaker 3: That still leaves approximately 200 or so Democrats who are
24:29
Speaker 3: either opposed or undecided. including House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and
24:34
Speaker 3: most of her top leadership. On Wednesday, Pelosi said, quote,
24:38
Speaker 3: nothing is off the table, but we do want to
24:40
Speaker 3: make such a compelling case, such an ironclad case, that
24:43
Speaker 3: even the Republican Senate will be convinced. We want to
24:46
Speaker 3: do what gets results. Dan, what kind of pressure does
24:50
Speaker 3: Mueller's statement yesterday put on Pelosi? How does this affect
24:54
Speaker 3: her decision? And what do you think of her reasoning yesterday?
25:00
Speaker 2: It puts more pressure on. I think the thing that
25:02
Speaker 2: probably puts the most pressure is Justin Amash, a Republican
25:06
Speaker 2: congressman facing a primary challenge, not only being essentially the
25:10
Speaker 2: most vocal advocate for impeachment in the House, going to
25:14
Speaker 2: a town hall in his Republican district and standing up
25:17
Speaker 2: and getting a standing ovation for making that case. I
25:19
Speaker 2: think that puts the most pressure on. We can't live
25:22
Speaker 2: in a world where Republican, even if it's one, but
25:26
Speaker 2: one Republican congressman is showing more courage of their convictions
25:30
Speaker 2: than Democrats in this situation. I think that puts a
25:32
Speaker 2: lot of pressure on. And I just have this sense
25:35
Speaker 2: that the momentum is all on the side of the
25:42
Speaker 2: Democrats who want to hold Trump accountable by opening an
25:44
Speaker 2: impeachment inquiry. Because just think of the arguments they have.
25:48
Speaker 2: They have the clear moral argument. They have the clear
25:50
Speaker 2: constitutional argument. They have the better argument around legal strategy
25:54
Speaker 2: in the sense that Trump is stiff-arming everything that they
25:57
Speaker 2: want to do and that their hand in getting access
26:01
Speaker 2: to those documents and those witnesses is strengthened by an
26:03
Speaker 2: impeachment inquiry.
26:04
Speaker 5: And the argument on.
26:05
Speaker 2: The other side is essentially Trump committed impeachable offenses, but
26:12
Speaker 2: we're not going to do impeachment because politics or something.
26:15
Speaker 2: And that is just not, that's not a compelling argument.
26:17
Speaker 2: You're not exciting anyone with that. You're not, you're not,
26:20
Speaker 2: it's not a logically coherent argument. to win that argument
26:25
Speaker 2: over the longterm because there's no, and it's just, it's
26:27
Speaker 2: not a great argument. And it is exacerbated by the
26:31
Speaker 2: fact that people are very skeptical for good reason about
26:36
Speaker 2: members of the democratic establishment telling the activists to check
26:40
Speaker 2: their passion because of political strategy, right? That's just, we
26:44
Speaker 2: have been down the road. We now believe for better
26:47
Speaker 2: or worse that no one knows anything. And so why
26:50
Speaker 2: would you take that on face value that doing the
26:54
Speaker 2: right thing morally, constitutionally, legally is the wrong thing politically.
26:58
Speaker 2: Why would you allow that argument to trump, no pun intended,
27:03
Speaker 2: what you believe?
27:04
Speaker 3: And look, I've obviously been in favor of proceeding with
27:08
Speaker 3: impeachment for a little bit now, but I understand where
27:12
Speaker 3: Nancy Pelosi is coming from. I will make her argument
27:15
Speaker 3: for her. If you look at polls right now, Democrats
27:21
Speaker 3: are in favor of impeachment by around 70, 75 percent
27:24
Speaker 3: of Democrats. Independents are slightly opposed. Republicans are obviously very,
27:30
Speaker 3: very opposed. Pelosi's looking out at her caucus. She's looking
27:34
Speaker 3: at the seats that gave the Democrats the majority in
27:38
Speaker 3: the House that made her speaker. Those seats are in
27:41
Speaker 3: districts where those Democrats would not have won those seats
27:45
Speaker 3: if they did not get a good amount of votes
27:47
Speaker 3: from independents. from some Republicans, you know, ask Katie Porter,
27:53
Speaker 3: ask Lauren Underwood, ask Antonio Delgado if they'd be in
27:56
Speaker 3: their seats right now without Obama-Trump voters, without Republican voters
27:59
Speaker 3: voting for them. And so if you look at the
28:00
Speaker 3: polls and you see independents and Republicans against impeachment and
28:03
Speaker 3: you see that not even all Democrats are for impeachment
28:06
Speaker 3: and you know that you're not going to get a
28:08
Speaker 3: conviction out of the Senate because Republicans are going to
28:11
Speaker 3: stand by Trump, you say to yourself, why put the
28:14
Speaker 3: caucus through that right now? And why take that vote
28:19
Speaker 3: if we know that a majority of Americans, overwhelming majority
28:23
Speaker 3: of Americans, agree with us on issues like health care,
28:25
Speaker 3: which voters happen to be very concerned about. So this
28:28
Speaker 3: is where Nancy Pelosi is coming from. The counter to
28:32
Speaker 3: that is, that's where public opinion is right now, at
28:37
Speaker 3: a time where only one half of one party is
28:41
Speaker 3: making the case why the President of the United States
28:44
Speaker 3: should be impeached. And we haven't had a trial. We
28:48
Speaker 3: haven't had all these televised investigations, all this testimony. We
28:54
Speaker 3: haven't made a consistent, coherent argument about why Donald Trump
28:59
Speaker 3: should be impeached. All the news right now is process arguments.
29:03
Speaker 3: It's about contempt citations. It's about getting Don McGahn to testify.
29:06
Speaker 3: Who the fuck is Don McGahn? Most people don't know.
29:09
Speaker 3: So all of this is, we're in the weeds on
29:11
Speaker 3: process right now, and we haven't begun to make the
29:14
Speaker 3: actual argument for impeachment. So the truth is, We don't
29:17
Speaker 3: know where the politics will end up on impeachment. They
29:20
Speaker 3: could be bad for Democrats. They could be good. Anyone
29:23
Speaker 3: who tells you they know where the politics are going
29:26
Speaker 3: to end up a couple months from now or a
29:28
Speaker 3: year from now, they're not telling the truth because none
29:31
Speaker 3: of us know. So the question is, do you do
29:35
Speaker 3: what seems right, what seems like the logical thing to do,
29:38
Speaker 3: what gives you the most compelling, coherent, logical argument? Which is,
29:43
Speaker 3: here's the special counsel investigated the president, found that he
29:47
Speaker 3: committed a bunch of crimes. By the way, he's been
29:49
Speaker 3: abusing his power in office in all these other ways
29:52
Speaker 3: since the day he was elected, since before he was elected.
29:55
Speaker 3: This is why he's unfit for office. This is why
29:57
Speaker 3: he's dangerous. This is why he feels like he's above
29:59
Speaker 3: the law. lay out the case, you know, who knows
30:02
Speaker 3: what might happen then?
30:04
Speaker 2: You know, as is probably clear to people who are
30:05
Speaker 2: listening now is that my opinion has shifted on this
30:08
Speaker 2: over time.
30:09
Speaker 1: Like I have been- Yeah, so talk about that.
30:10
Speaker 3: And by the way, everyone should check out your piece
30:13
Speaker 3: in cricket.com today about how Democrats can win the politics
30:18
Speaker 3: of impeachment if we go down that road. It's a
30:20
Speaker 3: fantastic piece. And so everyone, please check it out.
30:23
Speaker 2: Now I just write strategy memos for the open internet.
30:25
Speaker 2: It's become my new life. Someone needs to- So my
30:29
Speaker 2: view right after the Mueller report dropped was I agree
30:31
Speaker 2: with Nancy Pelosi. We should keep impeachment on the table.
30:33
Speaker 2: You should do a series of high-profile hearings in the
30:35
Speaker 2: normal course of business that– in the Oversight Committee, the
30:39
Speaker 2: Judiciary Committee, the Intelligence Committee that dramatize what was in
30:42
Speaker 2: the Mueller report and expand upon it, right? So I
30:45
Speaker 2: thought that– and then at the end of that process,
30:47
Speaker 2: if you could build support within the caucus and in
30:50
Speaker 2: the country for impeachment, you should proceed. There have been
30:53
Speaker 2: two things that have caused me to believe that now–
30:57
Speaker 2: impeachment and impeachment inquiry is the best path for Democrats
31:00
Speaker 2: to take. The first is the path that Nancy Pelosi
31:03
Speaker 2: originally put forward is not available because Trump has decided
31:06
Speaker 2: to take an unprecedentedly unconstitutional approach to the balance between
31:11
Speaker 2: two separate but equal branches of government and to say
31:13
Speaker 2: that no oversight is appropriate, that everything is a partisan
31:18
Speaker 2: fishing expedition. I will not cooperate. You'll get no witness.
31:21
Speaker 2: You'll get no documents. That's going to be true on
31:22
Speaker 2: everything from what was in the Mueller report to hurricane,
31:29
Speaker 2: to oversight into the botched response, the tragically botched response
31:33
Speaker 2: to the hurricane in Puerto Rico, to just all the
31:36
Speaker 2: other incidences of corruption throughout the administration. And so you're
31:39
Speaker 2: deprived the opportunity to expose to the public what Trump
31:45
Speaker 2: did through the normal course of business. So that's one.
31:47
Speaker 2: And the second one is I've sort of had this
31:49
Speaker 2: gnawing feeling about, it's almost a sense of deja vu
31:55
Speaker 2: as I've been talking about this. And so I think
31:58
Speaker 2: it was Friday. I was on Twitter, as often happens
32:02
Speaker 2: on a Friday or any other day. I saw that
32:06
Speaker 2: Robbie Moog, who was Hillary Clinton's campaign manager, was trending.
32:08
Speaker 5: I was like, huh.
32:09
Speaker 2: So I clicked on that. People were very worked up
32:11
Speaker 2: because CNBC had written an article that said voter activists
32:18
Speaker 2: are essentially mad at Pelosi for not moving on impeachment,
32:21
Speaker 2: but political strategists agree with her. It went through and
32:24
Speaker 2: quoted a lot of very smart, very accomplished pollsters, political consultants,
32:29
Speaker 2: essentially the people whose job it is to keep the House,
32:32
Speaker 2: take the Senate, win the White House. And included in
32:34
Speaker 2: that group was Robbie Mook, who said that avoiding impeachment
32:39
Speaker 2: was the better political move. And I just had this feeling,
32:42
Speaker 2: not that I don't respect all of the people quoted
32:44
Speaker 2: in that story, this feeling that there was just something
32:47
Speaker 2: deeply uncomfortable about, once again, the professional political class of,
32:53
Speaker 2: I consider myself at least adjacent to, if if not
32:56
Speaker 2: an actual member of telling activists, we know better what
33:00
Speaker 2: is good politically. So check what you believe is right
33:04
Speaker 2: morally or constitutionally, whatever. They just felt very uncomfortable and
33:07
Speaker 2: say it felt like an unsustainable position for the party
33:10
Speaker 2: to be in because you're basically putting a neon sign
33:14
Speaker 2: over your head that says, we are not doing what
33:16
Speaker 2: we believe is right. We are doing what we believe
33:18
Speaker 2: polls better. And that is always terrible politics.
33:22
Speaker 5: Yeah.
33:22
Speaker 2: It's just, you, you, it is very hard to convince
33:28
Speaker 2: people that you are the change that they believe in
33:32
Speaker 2: when you act like the most typical fucking politician in
33:34
Speaker 2: American history. And that is how Democrats are coming off
33:36
Speaker 2: right now, because no one is making the counter argument
33:39
Speaker 2: to impeachment on anything other than politics, right? Like they're
33:45
Speaker 2: going out and saying, it's what Trump wants. It'll solidify
33:47
Speaker 2: his base. The polls say it's bad. Those are not
33:50
Speaker 2: arguments to persuade people to your position. And I think
33:53
Speaker 2: that is a huge problem. And so I took from that,
33:57
Speaker 2: I was like, huh, maybe I should, as a thought exercise,
34:00
Speaker 2: try to make the case for why the politics of
34:03
Speaker 2: impeachment are good, right? That maybe that all the consultants
34:06
Speaker 2: are wrong. And so I spent way more of my weekend,
34:09
Speaker 2: my Memorial Day weekend, writing that piece than I intended to.
34:13
Speaker 2: But ultimately, I couldn't convince myself that they were good, right? That, like,
34:19
Speaker 2: what I came away from was that the politics are
34:25
Speaker 2: not like the, what the politics of matter are not
34:26
Speaker 2: what they are now. Like it is how, how they
34:29
Speaker 2: are at the end of this. And that there is
34:31
Speaker 2: huge political risk in impeaching and heading down an impeachment path.
34:35
Speaker 2: There is no doubt about that, but there was also
34:39
Speaker 2: as much, if not more risk in not heading down
34:42
Speaker 2: that path and basically turning a blind eye to your
34:46
Speaker 2: constitutional responsibility. And we can talk about why that is, but,
34:51
Speaker 2: What it really came down to, and the reason I
34:52
Speaker 2: wrote this piece, was instead of trying to debate whether
34:55
Speaker 2: it was good politics or bad politics, or if or
34:58
Speaker 2: when we do impeachment, I decided to focus on how
35:00
Speaker 2: we do it. And to think about if we go
35:02
Speaker 2: down this path, which I think we are probably, at
35:05
Speaker 2: least seems as of today, like we are going to
35:07
Speaker 2: get to eventually, what would be the best way to
35:10
Speaker 2: do it to manage those politics to see if you
35:12
Speaker 2: can turn this into a moment when we are doing
35:15
Speaker 2: the right thing for the country, but we are also
35:17
Speaker 2: maximizing our chances of to keep the House, defeat Trump,
35:20
Speaker 2: and even take back the Senate. And I think there
35:22
Speaker 2: is a path to do that, and that's what I
35:23
Speaker 2: laid out in the piece.
35:25
Speaker 3: I think the point you just made about what does
35:28
Speaker 3: the path look like, what does the next year look
35:31
Speaker 3: like if we do not pursue impeachment is a very
35:35
Speaker 3: important point and something that we haven't talked about as much.
35:38
Speaker 3: If you told me that if we walk away from impeachment,
35:42
Speaker 3: we could engage Donald Trump and the Republican Party in
35:45
Speaker 3: a great debate over health care coverage... or a great
35:49
Speaker 3: debate over tax cuts, the Republican tax cuts, or the
35:53
Speaker 3: regulations they're stripping away, and how they're helping Wall Street banks,
35:56
Speaker 3: and all this other kind of stuff. If you told
35:58
Speaker 3: me that we could have that debate every day from
36:00
Speaker 3: now until the election in 2020, I'd tell you I'd
36:02
Speaker 3: rather have that debate than have a debate about impeachment.
36:06
Speaker 3: But that's not the presidency we're dealing with. That's not
36:09
Speaker 3: the age of media that we're dealing with right now.
36:12
Speaker 3: And I think it's a misunderstanding of how Trump captures
36:17
Speaker 3: the news cycle every day and how he acts as
36:19
Speaker 3: a president, which is he is going to, he has
36:22
Speaker 3: already told us that he is basically going to try
36:25
Speaker 3: to investigate his political opponents, turn this around on the Democrats,
36:30
Speaker 3: you know, try to have show trials by the time
36:33
Speaker 3: we're in the election, you know, next year. He's got
36:36
Speaker 3: his attorney general now investigating the investigators. He's going to
36:40
Speaker 3: beat up on Democrats every day. And I've come to
36:44
Speaker 3: think that Basically, this is a race against time to
36:47
Speaker 3: find out who can own more news cycles between now
36:51
Speaker 3: and the 2020 election, the Democrats or Donald Trump. And
36:56
Speaker 3: as we saw today, going after Trump on the crimes
37:02
Speaker 3: that he committed, on the impeachable offenses that he's committed,
37:05
Speaker 3: puts him on the defensive, makes him angry, and prevents
37:09
Speaker 3: him from being on offense against Democrats as he is
37:13
Speaker 3: on other days of the week. when we're out there
37:15
Speaker 3: trying to get our message out. Now, this doesn't mean
37:18
Speaker 3: that our presidential candidates and our congressional candidates shouldn't be
37:21
Speaker 3: out there at town halls every single fucking day talking
37:24
Speaker 3: about their plan for health care and their plan for
37:26
Speaker 3: wages and all the other kind of stuff. But it
37:28
Speaker 3: does mean that we are in this constant media battle
37:32
Speaker 3: to see who can own the microphone that day. And
37:35
Speaker 3: Donald Trump, nine times out of ten, is always in
37:38
Speaker 3: control of the microphone. Impeachment, having the eyes of the
37:42
Speaker 3: nation focused on these live, televised hearings over and over
37:46
Speaker 3: again is perhaps one way, perhaps the only way to
37:49
Speaker 3: finally rest the microphone away from Donald Trump.
37:55
Speaker 2: I think that is right. And as I was trying
37:58
Speaker 2: to factor the politics of my head, and it is like,
38:01
Speaker 2: there is something uncomfortable about like, this is Congress's most
38:06
Speaker 2: sort of sacred responsibility, right? Is the biggest thing they
38:09
Speaker 2: do would be to undertake an effort that could lead
38:12
Speaker 2: to the removal of a of an elected president. That
38:15
Speaker 2: is a big thing. And so it feels weird to
38:18
Speaker 2: talk about politics, but it is a political process.
38:21
Speaker 5: It is.
38:22
Speaker 2: The founders intended it that way by giving it to
38:25
Speaker 2: the elected representatives of the public as opposed to the judiciary,
38:30
Speaker 2: which was also... They had three branches. They had to
38:33
Speaker 2: choose two here, and they chose the one staffed by
38:36
Speaker 2: people who have to face the voters. But also, we
38:38
Speaker 2: know it's political in the sense that Trump has immunity
38:42
Speaker 2: by Republican cowardice in the Senate, right? We have to
38:47
Speaker 2: be very clear. He is not going to be removed
38:48
Speaker 2: from office.
38:49
Speaker 4: Right.
38:49
Speaker 2: So we have to think about what we're trying to
38:52
Speaker 2: achieve here, and it is a political objective. And so
38:55
Speaker 2: a couple of thoughts about how to think about that.
38:59
Speaker 2: One is we have to think about an impeachment proceeding
39:04
Speaker 2: as what matters is the journey, not the destination.
39:06
Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.
39:08
Speaker 2: As much as it will bother Donald Trump to be
39:10
Speaker 2: one of a tiny handful of impeached presidents, what matters
39:14
Speaker 2: is what we tell people into getting there. I don't
39:16
Speaker 2: think voters are going to be like, I was for
39:18
Speaker 2: him until you impeached him. But it could be that
39:21
Speaker 2: in the context of what they learned over the course
39:24
Speaker 2: of that time, they were less likely to support Trump
39:27
Speaker 2: or they decided that a Democrat would be better.
39:30
Speaker 3: Off.
39:30
Speaker 2: And so I think that that is the way to
39:33
Speaker 2: think about it, right? It's not what's going to happen
39:35
Speaker 2: at the end. It's what's going to happen between the
39:36
Speaker 2: day you open the inquiry and Election Day 2020. And
39:39
Speaker 2: how can you inform voters in a very specific set
39:42
Speaker 2: of voters, right? New and sporadic voters who helped elect
39:47
Speaker 2: Democrats in 2018. the voters who voted for Trump in
39:52
Speaker 2: 2016 but disapprove of him now, the voters who voted
39:54
Speaker 2: for a third-party candidate in 2016, will they be available
39:58
Speaker 2: to us? That's how we have to think about that.
40:01
Speaker 2: The second thing is I think the arguments against impeachment
40:04
Speaker 2: politically are they're not precise enough or they're somewhat inaccurate.
40:11
Speaker 2: And so they should at least be tested. It may
40:13
Speaker 2: still turn out that the risk of impeachment is tremendous.
40:17
Speaker 2: And you just Everything is risky, like getting out of
40:20
Speaker 2: bed is risky, right? But the two points that people
40:23
Speaker 2: often cite is the effects of the Republicans impeaching Bill
40:28
Speaker 2: Clinton in 1998. And the way that story is told
40:32
Speaker 2: is historically inaccurate because a couple of important points. One,
40:37
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton was– yes, Bill Clinton won seats in 1998,
40:41
Speaker 2: which came as a big surprise and was very unusual
40:43
Speaker 2: for a midterm election and a president's second term. And
40:47
Speaker 2: impeachment was something that was being discussed in that election
40:50
Speaker 2: because Republicans were talking about it as a response to
40:55
Speaker 2: the Ken Starr investigation and Bill Clinton's conduct. But the
40:59
Speaker 2: impeachment didn't happen until after the election. So the Republicans didn't,
41:03
Speaker 2: so we're basically, if we do not impeach or begin
41:06
Speaker 2: impeachment proceedings against Trump before the 2020 election, we are
41:09
Speaker 2: essentially rerunning the play that did not work in 1998,
41:11
Speaker 2: which is you put something that is a radioactive issue
41:15
Speaker 2: like impeachment on the table, but then you spend no
41:17
Speaker 2: time or effort to explain to people why you're doing it. Basically,
41:22
Speaker 2: they raise the charge without prosecuting the case. The second
41:25
Speaker 2: point is, yes, it is true that at the height
41:28
Speaker 2: of impeachment, Bill Clinton's approval ratings skyrocketed to 73% in
41:32
Speaker 2: the Gallup poll. That is true. But a couple of
41:35
Speaker 2: points around that. One, they were 66% on the day
41:39
Speaker 2: of the last Gallup poll before the 1998 election. And
41:43
Speaker 2: while they hit 73%, right as Bill Clinton was being impeached,
41:49
Speaker 2: his numbers went back down to what was sort of
41:53
Speaker 2: his baseline for the rest of his term, which was
41:56
Speaker 2: high 60s, low 50s, which is still very high, but
41:59
Speaker 2: we're also sort of living in a different, less polarized era.
42:02
Speaker 2: And then in the first election after impeachment, Democrats did
42:06
Speaker 2: pick up seats in the House and they did pick
42:08
Speaker 2: up seats in the Senate. So we should be clear
42:09
Speaker 2: about that. But Bill Clinton's vice president lost election in
42:15
Speaker 2: part because.
42:19
Speaker 5: George W.
42:19
Speaker 2: Bush, who was running against Al Gore at the time,
42:21
Speaker 2: ran explicitly against Clinton's conduct. He's talked about returning decency
42:26
Speaker 2: to the Oval Office. It was very specific that he
42:29
Speaker 2: was running against Bill Clinton's conduct and the associated chaos
42:34
Speaker 2: that came from all the investigations, the impeachment. And even
42:37
Speaker 2: though Bill Clinton remained relatively popular, he was at least
42:41
Speaker 2: toxic enough with swing voters to at the end of
42:44
Speaker 2: that election, that Al Gore decided that Bill Clinton, the
42:48
Speaker 2: incumbent Democratic president of the United States, could not campaign
42:50
Speaker 2: for him down the stretch. And we can debate whether
42:53
Speaker 2: that was– that will be debated forever whether that was
42:54
Speaker 2: the right decision or the wrong decision. But the fact
42:56
Speaker 2: that he even thought it is proof that impeachment had
42:59
Speaker 2: an impact on Bill Clinton's political viability. And so I
43:03
Speaker 2: think we have to think about– we at least have
43:05
Speaker 2: to understand that historical example correctly if we're going to
43:09
Speaker 2: evaluate the politics of impeachment going forward.
43:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the other important point about that historical
43:13
Speaker 3: example is the argument that Republicans made for impeachment was
43:19
Speaker 3: somewhat discordant in the minds of voters because they're basically saying, yes,
43:23
Speaker 3: you might think he's doing a good job, this president.
43:26
Speaker 1: You might like the economy.
43:27
Speaker 3: You might think his presidency is a success, but we
43:29
Speaker 3: want to impeach him for personal conduct. And I think
43:33
Speaker 3: that gets to a very important point that you also
43:36
Speaker 3: raise in your piece today, which is that the Democrats'
43:40
Speaker 3: messaging around impeachment and why they're impeaching Donald Trump and
43:44
Speaker 3: what for is critical. And I do think that if
43:47
Speaker 3: Democrats focus only on the Mueller report, that will be
43:51
Speaker 3: a political mistake and just a mistake in general because
43:56
Speaker 3: what Trump did around Russia and his obstruction is not
43:59
Speaker 3: the only impeachable offense he has committed since taking office.
44:03
Speaker 3: And so I think you need a broader message about
44:05
Speaker 3: Trump's abuse of power. I mean, just imagine... a set
44:08
Speaker 3: of impeachment hearings where you not only talk about the
44:11
Speaker 3: Mueller report, but you talk about how Trump has been
44:14
Speaker 3: using his presidency to promote his private businesses and get rich,
44:18
Speaker 3: which has encouraged corporations and foreign governments to funnel money
44:21
Speaker 3: into the Trump Hotel in Mar-a-Lago if they want to influence, say,
44:25
Speaker 3: a corporate merger or U.S. foreign policy. And, you know,
44:29
Speaker 3: you ask people, is that how we want our president
44:31
Speaker 3: to make decisions? Can you afford to join his private
44:34
Speaker 3: club if you need a certain policy? He's placed himself
44:38
Speaker 3: above the law. He's abused his power to target his
44:40
Speaker 3: political enemies. He's ordered investigations into Hillary, Biden, Obama officials.
44:45
Speaker 3: He's tried to make Amazon pay more for postage because
44:48
Speaker 3: of a personal feud with Jeff Bezos, the company's owner.
44:51
Speaker 3: Imagine if he did that to your company. He's pardoned
44:54
Speaker 3: his friends and business associates, even when they violated human
44:57
Speaker 3: rights like fucking Joe Arpaio or stole money from people
45:00
Speaker 3: like his former business partner, Conrad Black. He told border
45:03
Speaker 3: patrol agents he'd pardon them if they broke the law.
45:05
Speaker 3: He's considering right now pardoning war criminals. I mean, his
45:10
Speaker 3: government tried to cover up the murder of a Washington
45:12
Speaker 3: Post journalist by a foreign government who he currently has
45:15
Speaker 3: a secret financial relationship with. And then there's issues that
45:20
Speaker 3: actually matter to people's lives. He acted illegally to sabotage
45:24
Speaker 3: the Affordable Care Act, build a border wall using money
45:26
Speaker 3: that Congress refused to appropriate, and separate immigrant children from
45:29
Speaker 3: their families, some of whom his government has lost. I mean,
45:34
Speaker 3: Imagine the witnesses that you could bring before Congress to
45:37
Speaker 3: tell these stories and how you could connect his actions
45:41
Speaker 3: and his misdeeds and his crimes to what really matters
45:45
Speaker 3: to the American people. It doesn't have to be about
45:48
Speaker 3: just obstruction and contempt and the Mueller report and all
45:50
Speaker 3: this stuff. We can make this about issues that really
45:53
Speaker 3: matter to people.
45:56
Speaker 2: The other point I just want to make about the
45:57
Speaker 2: politics of it, right? Because, I mean, because they do matter,
46:00
Speaker 2: is people also say, Democrats won in 2018 because they
46:06
Speaker 2: didn't follow Trump down rabbit holes and they had a disciplined,
46:10
Speaker 2: focused campaign on health care and the Trump tax cut.
46:15
Speaker 2: And that is true. But there is a second piece
46:18
Speaker 2: of that. And they also ran, whether they were running
46:21
Speaker 2: in blue districts or deeply red districts, they ran on
46:26
Speaker 2: providing a check and a balance against the chaos and
46:30
Speaker 2: corruption of Trump's Washington. And we talked last week about
46:34
Speaker 2: this Catalyst report. One of the findings in that report
46:36
Speaker 2: was one of the things that caused Democrats to have
46:39
Speaker 2: such a successful 2018 was a surge of new voters
46:43
Speaker 2: for a midterm. Their 13% electorate was new voters. And
46:47
Speaker 2: what message does it send to those voters if you
46:49
Speaker 2: sell to them in 2018 that you're going to provide
46:52
Speaker 2: a check and a balance to Trump, but then in 2019,
46:54
Speaker 2: you turn a blind eye to an in what is
47:00
Speaker 2: essentially an impeachment referral from Bob Mueller about obstruction of justice.
47:05
Speaker 2: Like what message does that send? The key to getting
47:09
Speaker 2: people to get off the sidelines and vote, and then
47:11
Speaker 2: to get them to go from being a first-time voter
47:15
Speaker 2: to a second, third, fourth-time voter is to show them
47:17
Speaker 2: that their vote matters. So if you make them an
47:18
Speaker 2: explicit promise and then break that promise within 365 days,
47:22
Speaker 2: then you are putting yourself at risk in 2020. We
47:26
Speaker 2: need every one of those voters from 2018 to turn
47:28
Speaker 2: out and then some. to win this election in 2020.
47:31
Speaker 2: And so, yes, there is real concerns about how this
47:35
Speaker 2: will affect some of those Obama Trump voters who voted
47:38
Speaker 2: for a Democrat in 2018. Yes, there is some concern
47:41
Speaker 2: about how this will affect some of those Republicans who
47:45
Speaker 2: voted for Trump in 2016, but now disapprove of him
47:48
Speaker 2: and got them to vote for him. There is some
47:49
Speaker 2: effect on that. There is also an effect on potentially
47:53
Speaker 2: base turnout. And we have to look at all of,
47:55
Speaker 2: look at a holistic picture here about the politics and
47:57
Speaker 2: not simply assign it to a set of white working
48:00
Speaker 2: class voters in the Midwest and allow them to dictate
48:04
Speaker 2: the strategy for the party, which I think too oftentimes
48:06
Speaker 2: we do.
48:07
Speaker 6: Yes.
48:07
Speaker 3: And last point here, and you talk about this in
48:09
Speaker 3: your piece as well, is I think Democrats should use
48:12
Speaker 3: the low expectations that impeachment will result in Trump's removal
48:17
Speaker 3: in their favor, right? The jury is not the Senate.
48:21
Speaker 3: The jury is the American people. And as Democrats start this,
48:25
Speaker 3: I think they should say explicitly, we don't necessarily expect
48:30
Speaker 3: Mitch McConnell and the Senate Republicans are going to show
48:32
Speaker 3: political courage for the first time in the Trump presidency
48:35
Speaker 3: and do the.
48:36
Speaker 1: Right thing here.
48:37
Speaker 3: But we want everyone in that Senate on record before
48:41
Speaker 3: the 2020 election, and then the American people can decide.
48:44
Speaker 3: If Susan Collins, who's going to be hopefully in a
48:47
Speaker 3: close race in Maine, if Cory Gardner, who's going to
48:49
Speaker 3: be in a tight race in Colorado, if Martha McSally,
48:52
Speaker 3: who's going to be in a tight race in Arizona,
48:54
Speaker 3: if they want to look at all this evidence and
48:57
Speaker 3: about the president's abuse of power and unfitness for office
49:00
Speaker 3: and the crimes he committed and say, we stick with
49:02
Speaker 3: Donald Trump. We're going to not have any accountability for
49:06
Speaker 3: Donald Trump whatsoever. We're going to let him off the
49:07
Speaker 3: hook for everything. If they want to take that vote,
49:09
Speaker 3: they can take that vote and then they can face
49:11
Speaker 3: the voters in 2020. And so, therefore, we set up
49:15
Speaker 3: a thing where when, you know, the Senate exonerates Donald
49:18
Speaker 3: Trump and he says, oh, they exonerated me. No one's
49:20
Speaker 3: surprised because we know that basically this is about making
49:25
Speaker 3: a case to the American people, which we're going to
49:27
Speaker 3: do anyway, about why Donald Trump shouldn't serve a second term.
49:30
Speaker 3: And then the voters can decide. Ask Susan Collins right now.
49:33
Speaker 3: I bet if a reporter asked Susan Collins right now,
49:35
Speaker 3: would you vote to exonerate Donald Trump or impeach Donald Trump,
49:39
Speaker 3: she'd at least say, well, I'd have to see the evidence.
49:42
Speaker 3: She wouldn't say, I'm going to, she's not excited to
49:45
Speaker 3: take a vote on impeachment. Cory Gardner's not excited to
49:48
Speaker 3: take a vote on impeachment. Do you think these people
49:50
Speaker 3: are like super psyched that Democrats are pursuing this and
49:52
Speaker 3: then they get to vote to exonerate Donald Trump?
49:55
Speaker 1: I don't think so.
49:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have no choice because if they vote to
49:59
Speaker 2: exonerate Donald Trump in blue states in a presidential election year,
50:04
Speaker 2: they are, they've, face real risk of wrath of both
50:10
Speaker 2: jacked up Democratic turnout and independent voters. In a state
50:12
Speaker 2: like Colorado, independents are the largest portion of the electorate.
50:16
Speaker 2: And if they were, some people have said to me
50:17
Speaker 2: since that piece came out, well, wouldn't McConnell just let Gardner, Collins, McSally,
50:22
Speaker 2: et cetera, vote to convict Trump because he doesn't need
50:27
Speaker 2: those votes? They can't take that vote either because that
50:30
Speaker 2: would betray Trump and basically no Trump voters would turn out.
50:34
Speaker 2: So you're putting tremendous pressure on them in an impossible position,
50:38
Speaker 2: which there's a way in which we can use this
50:41
Speaker 2: process to not just beat Donald Trump in the presidential election,
50:45
Speaker 2: but also take the Senate, which is what we are
50:48
Speaker 2: aiming for.
50:48
Speaker 1: It has to be done right.
50:50
Speaker 2: If this is done poorly, it's a fucking disaster. But
50:52
Speaker 2: you have to have a plan, you have to have
50:53
Speaker 2: a message, and you have to execute it with fucking
50:56
Speaker 2: precision and discipline. And that is not easy in a
50:59
Speaker 2: live-fire exercise like this will be. But it can be done.
51:03
Speaker 2: We just have to do it right.
51:05
Speaker 6: Yeah.
51:05
Speaker 3: And I think that's where my biggest anxiety is, that
51:07
Speaker 3: we we fail on the execution here and it becomes
51:10
Speaker 3: a bunch of, you know, Democrats and disarray stories. And,
51:13
Speaker 3: you know, we fuck it all up. And, you know,
51:16
Speaker 3: like the guy who ate a bunch of fried chicken when,
51:19
Speaker 3: you know, Don McGahn didn't show up for his testimony
51:21
Speaker 3: and thought that was a funny stunt. That's that's the
51:25
Speaker 3: kind of shit that, yeah, that will that will be
51:27
Speaker 3: politically bad for us.
51:28
Speaker 1: OK, we talked a lot about this. Let's talk about
51:31
Speaker 1: the Democratic primary.
51:32
Speaker 3: On Wednesday, the Democratic National Committee announced its third presidential
51:36
Speaker 3: primary debate in September, along with new requirements for candidates
51:39
Speaker 3: to qualify. Candidates will now have to have 130,000 unique donors,
51:44
Speaker 3: up from the current threshold of 65,000 unique donors, and,
51:48
Speaker 3: not or, and they will have to poll at 2%
51:50
Speaker 3: or higher in at least four national or early state polls,
51:54
Speaker 3: up from the current rule of 1% in three polls.
51:58
Speaker 3: The new rules could dramatically winnow the number of candidates
52:00
Speaker 3: that make the debates as of right now, 19 candidates
52:03
Speaker 3: have qualified for the first debates later this month. These
52:05
Speaker 3: new rules could trim the field possibly down to seven, eight,
52:09
Speaker 3: nine candidates.
52:11
Speaker 1: Dan, is this a good idea?
52:13
Speaker 2: It's hard to say if it is a good idea
52:16
Speaker 2: or not. It is a necessary idea. And I am
52:18
Speaker 2: very sympathetic to the challenges the DNC faces here, right?
52:23
Speaker 2: They wanted to, especially after what happened in 2016... they
52:27
Speaker 2: wanted to be as fair as possible to give as
52:29
Speaker 2: many people an opportunity to go from the bottom of
52:32
Speaker 2: the pack to the top of the pack. And so
52:33
Speaker 2: they set the standard of 1% in a poll and 65,000
52:38
Speaker 2: unique doters. And the goal with that was to make
52:41
Speaker 2: it so that grassroots support, small dollar grassroots support should
52:45
Speaker 2: be encouraged and it should be recognized. It just turned
52:47
Speaker 2: out that it was easier to hit that threshold than
52:49
Speaker 2: people expected. And That's sort of impossible to know at
52:53
Speaker 2: the time. I don't remember a bunch of people being like,
52:55
Speaker 2: this is super easy. There was just more engagement among
52:58
Speaker 2: a wider array of candidates than people expected. And it's
53:00
Speaker 2: easier to get people to get, like, you can convince
53:03
Speaker 2: people to give a few dollars online, especially if you're
53:05
Speaker 2: putting money behind social media ads, which is what all
53:10
Speaker 2: these candidates have been spending all their money on. It's
53:12
Speaker 2: list building and donations. And so you can get there.
53:16
Speaker 2: So they're trying to balance not putting their thumb on
53:18
Speaker 2: the scale in favor of establishment candidates who are currently
53:22
Speaker 2: frontrunners with, I think, also an obligation to the voters
53:26
Speaker 2: that they get to see the candidates who are most
53:29
Speaker 2: likely to be the nominee engage with each other. If
53:34
Speaker 2: we go through a bunch of debates and we never
53:36
Speaker 2: see Elizabeth Warren and Joe Biden or Kamala Harris and
53:39
Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders or Biden and Bernie Sanders engage with each other,
53:43
Speaker 2: then that is a disservice to the voters, right? Like
53:45
Speaker 2: if we end up in a world where Biden is
53:47
Speaker 2: on stage with Marianne Williams and Andrew Yang, you know,
53:50
Speaker 2: a bunch of people who have a very, very, very
53:52
Speaker 2: small chance as of right now to be president, then
53:55
Speaker 2: we're not really getting to see, like to really test
53:59
Speaker 2: out the metal of that candidate. And so they're trying
54:01
Speaker 2: to find the right balance. I think this could dramatically
54:05
Speaker 2: window the field. Nate Silver made this point that it's
54:08
Speaker 2: just going to be very hard to get to 2%
54:10
Speaker 2: for a lot of these candidates. 1%, You're sort of
54:12
Speaker 2: within the margin of error, and you can be zero
54:15
Speaker 2: most times, then one a couple times, and you'll get there.
54:17
Speaker 2: Two is harder, especially in a field this large. So
54:22
Speaker 2: you could be down to eight to ten candidates pretty quickly.
54:26
Speaker 2: And I'm torn on it. It's hard for those other candidates,
54:30
Speaker 2: especially the ones who got in the race late, to
54:32
Speaker 2: say tough. But I think ultimately this is probably the
54:36
Speaker 2: right thing to do. It's just we're living in a
54:38
Speaker 2: world of unintended consequences.
54:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am sympathetic to all the candidates who are currently,
54:45
Speaker 3: you know, polling around 1% and haven't hit that donor threshold.
54:49
Speaker 3: And I'm sympathetic to their argument. Well, I just need
54:52
Speaker 3: more time. I'm sort of in this catch-22. Like, I
54:55
Speaker 3: need to be able to break through. But in order
54:57
Speaker 3: to break through, I sort of need the media exposure.
54:59
Speaker 3: And that's why I need this debate. And I get
55:02
Speaker 3: that to a point. But the counter example here is
55:07
Speaker 3: Pete Buttigieg, who... He's a small-town mayor. He was on
55:12
Speaker 3: nobody's radar. He was polling at 1%. And within a
55:18
Speaker 3: month of announcing, maybe a little more, he was able to,
55:23
Speaker 3: through his CNN town hall and, of course, his interview
55:27
Speaker 3: with you, Dan, here on Pod Save America, he was
55:30
Speaker 3: able to prove that he belonged in the top tier
55:34
Speaker 3: through several breakout performances. And it took him about a
55:38
Speaker 3: month or two months. And if this threshold, this new
55:42
Speaker 3: threshold were in place for these first two debates, I'd
55:45
Speaker 3: say it was certainly unfair. But by September, by the
55:49
Speaker 3: time September rolls around and all these candidates have been
55:51
Speaker 3: campaigning for a couple months and they've all had their
55:53
Speaker 3: chance to do their CNN town halls and their MSNBC
55:56
Speaker 3: town halls, and by the way, they've had a chance
55:58
Speaker 3: to do two national debates and get their message out there,
56:01
Speaker 3: if they still can't hit 2% in the polls, then
56:05
Speaker 3: I do think it's fair to say you know, we
56:08
Speaker 3: still are going to have about eight or nine candidates
56:11
Speaker 3: on stage at once together.
56:12
Speaker 1: That's still a huge field.
56:14
Speaker 3: And we need, and those are the eight or nine candidates,
56:17
Speaker 3: not the two or three, eight or nine candidates most
56:19
Speaker 3: likely to win this race. And voters need to see
56:22
Speaker 3: them in a series of exchanges and not hear 30
56:26
Speaker 3: seconds to a minute from each person and then move on.
56:28
Speaker 3: They need to hear a real debate. And by the way,
56:31
Speaker 3: that field, if it was right now, would be, you know,
56:34
Speaker 3: Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg, Kamala Harris,
56:39
Speaker 3: Beto O'Rourke, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar perhaps as well. That
56:43
Speaker 3: field would be the most diverse field of Democratic candidates
56:48
Speaker 3: maybe in history. Three women in that field, two people
56:51
Speaker 3: of color, a gay man. I mean, that is a
56:54
Speaker 3: very diverse field. It's diverse ideologically. And so I think
57:00
Speaker 3: if we end up with that field, with that group
57:03
Speaker 3: of candidates by September, after all these other candidates have
57:06
Speaker 3: been campaigning for months and had plenty of media exposure,
57:09
Speaker 3: you know, sanctioned by the DNC, then I think we're
57:13
Speaker 3: in a pretty good place.
57:14
Speaker 5: Yeah.
57:16
Speaker 2: The barriers to entry have been brought down for lesser-known
57:19
Speaker 2: political figures. And that's not just Mayor Pete. It's also
57:22
Speaker 2: Andrew Yang.
57:23
Speaker 5: Yeah.
57:24
Speaker 2: Mayor Pete, at least, was well-known within the party as
57:27
Speaker 2: a rising star. He had turned a run for DNC
57:30
Speaker 2: chair into, like, some fame internally. Even to the point
57:35
Speaker 2: where when we interviewed President Obama on his last day
57:39
Speaker 2: in office, he mentioned Mayor Pete as someone who was
57:41
Speaker 2: a rising star within the party. He's had that rising
57:43
Speaker 2: star label, but Andrew Yang, who's going to be in
57:46
Speaker 2: that debate, came from nowhere. He built a following on
57:50
Speaker 2: the internet through an aggressive strategy. Even if you don't
57:55
Speaker 2: get in a debate, it gets harder, but you can
57:58
Speaker 2: still make yourself known because you can get on This
58:02
Speaker 2: is just where the three networks, CNN and The New
58:05
Speaker 2: York Times and The Washington Post, decide who gets coverage.
58:07
Speaker 2: There are all kinds of ways to get coverage, and
58:10
Speaker 2: you can still do it. And if you have a
58:11
Speaker 2: compelling message and a good story and an interesting agenda,
58:13
Speaker 2: you have a chance. But the DNC does, to your point,
58:16
Speaker 2: have an obligation to try to make these debates as
58:19
Speaker 2: informative as possible for the voters. And just simply saying
58:22
Speaker 2: you are running for president, as we've said before, is
58:24
Speaker 2: not the same as actually running for president. You have
58:26
Speaker 2: to be putting together a real campaign and getting traction.
58:29
Speaker 2: And whether this is going to be the exact right line,
58:31
Speaker 2: maybe it should be slightly different. Maybe you should have
58:33
Speaker 2: 12 candidates, not nine. Maybe you should have seven, not nine.
58:35
Speaker 2: I don't know. But going to a world in which
58:38
Speaker 2: we are beginning, as we're within six months of the
58:42
Speaker 2: Iowa caucus, where we're focusing the attention on the people
58:45
Speaker 2: who've been able to gain traction is probably the right
58:48
Speaker 2: and only path to take. Whether they're doing it the
58:50
Speaker 2: exact right way or not, we'll see how this plays out.
58:52
Speaker 2: But I understand why they did it, and it seems
58:55
Speaker 2: to be the only choice to make.
58:57
Speaker 3: All right, let's talk about the policy primary. A new
58:59
Speaker 3: story from Thomas Kaplan and Astead Herndon in the New
59:01
Speaker 3: York Times says that Elizabeth Warren is gaining in the
59:03
Speaker 3: polls and seeing bigger crowds and that she's, quote, been
59:06
Speaker 3: propelled in part by a number of disruptive choices, most
59:09
Speaker 3: notably the breakneck pace at which she introduces policy proposals.
59:13
Speaker 1: Dan, do you agree with that? And what do you
59:14
Speaker 1: think about Warren's overall strategy and the strength of her campaign?
59:19
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren is running the best campaign of anyone in
59:23
Speaker 2: this race, and it's not close.
59:25
Speaker 5: I agree.
59:25
Speaker 2: That is not to say there aren't other people running
59:27
Speaker 2: really good races, like the fact that Mayor Pete has
59:29
Speaker 2: gone from nowhere to a top-tier contender and is by
59:33
Speaker 2: all accounts raising more money than perhaps anyone else in
59:37
Speaker 2: the field right now is also incredibly impressive. So we
59:40
Speaker 2: can debate it. But Elizabeth Warren knows why she's running.
59:43
Speaker 2: Her campaign knows what their path to win is. They're
59:46
Speaker 2: running it with strategic discipline. They are playing the long game.
59:52
Speaker 2: They are taking risks. They are consistent with their strategy.
59:55
Speaker 2: And they're being opportunistic to find ways to make news
59:59
Speaker 2: in a very tough news environment, whether it is being
1:00:01
Speaker 2: the first to, in the context of the presidential campaign,
1:00:04
Speaker 2: to jump on impeachment, whether it is seeing that every
1:00:06
Speaker 2: other candidate is doing a Fox News town hall, so
1:00:09
Speaker 2: you're going to take a strong stance against Fox. Like,
1:00:11
Speaker 2: she's just running the best campaign. Does that mean she's
1:00:14
Speaker 2: going to win?
1:00:14
Speaker 5: No.
1:00:14
Speaker 2: Does that mean she'll still also be running the best
1:00:16
Speaker 2: campaign three months from now?
1:00:18
Speaker 6: No.
1:00:18
Speaker 2: But she, this is a little punny, I guess, but
1:00:21
Speaker 2: she has a plan to win, right? That is the
1:00:23
Speaker 2: actual plan she has. And all of her policies ladder
1:00:27
Speaker 2: up to a narrative about who she is and why
1:00:30
Speaker 2: she'd be a good president. It's very impressive. Just from
1:00:32
Speaker 2: the perspective of people who have worked on campaigns before,
1:00:36
Speaker 2: both good ones and bad ones, she is running a
1:00:38
Speaker 2: very good campaign, and that should be noted.
1:00:40
Speaker 1: I completely agree.
1:00:41
Speaker 3: And it actually bothers me when people talk about Elizabeth
1:00:45
Speaker 3: Warren's success as only a result of the fact that
1:00:47
Speaker 3: she's releasing a bunch of policies, because as we have
1:00:51
Speaker 3: seen in the past, as we've talked about many times
1:00:54
Speaker 3: about 2016 and about other races, you can put out
1:00:59
Speaker 3: a slew of 10-point plans and detailed policy papers, and
1:01:06
Speaker 3: that does not equal a winning political strategy by any means.
1:01:10
Speaker 3: But the reason that Elizabeth Warren is successful and the
1:01:14
Speaker 3: reason that her plans are successful is because, like you said,
1:01:17
Speaker 3: they all ladder up to that one overarching message, right?
1:01:22
Speaker 3: Even her policies, it's all about sort of unstacking the debt.
1:01:26
Speaker 3: They fit a message, right? That people who are powerful
1:01:30
Speaker 3: and wealthy, they write the rules, they write the laws,
1:01:34
Speaker 3: and everyone else gets screwed. And she's saying, we're going
1:01:37
Speaker 3: to rewrite the laws so that they're more democratic. We're
1:01:40
Speaker 3: going to rewrite the rules so that more people have
1:01:42
Speaker 3: a chance. And all of her policies flow from that.
1:01:44
Speaker 3: And like you said, she's also been very good about
1:01:47
Speaker 3: trying to get coverage, not just on her plans, but
1:01:50
Speaker 3: on things like the Fox News Town Hall, on being
1:01:52
Speaker 3: out there early on impeachment. She's doing things like going
1:01:55
Speaker 3: to West Virginia to talk to Trump voters about opioids,
1:01:59
Speaker 3: and she's getting news that way.
1:02:01
Speaker 1: She's out there.
1:02:02
Speaker 3: She was at an event last week, and she said,
1:02:04
Speaker 3: ask the other candidates if they get their money from
1:02:06
Speaker 3: a bunch of millionaires, which is talking about her very
1:02:11
Speaker 3: difficult and risky decision to ditch high-dollar fundraising events and
1:02:15
Speaker 3: only do low-dollar fundraising, which is risky, but she's then
1:02:18
Speaker 3: using it to her advantage by saying, you know, when
1:02:21
Speaker 3: Mayor Pete and Kamala Harris and Joe Biden and some
1:02:24
Speaker 3: of these candidates who are doing a lot of high-dollar
1:02:25
Speaker 3: fundraising and raising money from really rich people, when they
1:02:28
Speaker 3: come through here, you ask them where they're getting their
1:02:31
Speaker 3: money from. I'm getting their money from grassroots donors. And
1:02:33
Speaker 3: so I really think it's smart that she's putting all
1:02:36
Speaker 3: the different pieces together and she's not just focused on
1:02:40
Speaker 3: throwing out a bunch of policy plans.
1:02:42
Speaker 2: And one thing that is important to note there is
1:02:45
Speaker 2: her campaign has a very high risk tolerance.
1:02:48
Speaker 5: Yes.
1:02:49
Speaker 2: They understand that for anyone other than the possible exception
1:02:52
Speaker 2: of Joe Biden, just given his commanding lead in the
1:02:54
Speaker 2: polls right now, for everyone else, winning is a tremendous
1:02:58
Speaker 2: long shot. It is probably sub-10% for every other candidate
1:03:04
Speaker 2: other than Joe Biden. And because it's very hard to
1:03:07
Speaker 2: win a primary period, it's really hard to win in
1:03:09
Speaker 2: a large, incredibly diverse field like this one. And if
1:03:12
Speaker 2: you understand how low your chances are of winning, then
1:03:17
Speaker 2: you recognize that you need to take risks. You have
1:03:21
Speaker 2: to have a strategy with high variance where there is
1:03:24
Speaker 2: tremendous downside risk to saying, I'm not going to do
1:03:28
Speaker 2: in-person fundraisers. Like you are betting on something. You're betting
1:03:31
Speaker 2: you're going to be able to sell a grassroots message
1:03:33
Speaker 2: and turn that into enough money to power your campaign.
1:03:35
Speaker 2: But there's also huge upside benefit if you execute it well, right?
1:03:41
Speaker 2: Being in front of impeachment. Same situation. And I would
1:03:44
Speaker 2: like to see more campaigns understand the importance of risky strategies.
1:03:52
Speaker 2: It's not risk for risk's sake. It is understanding what
1:03:56
Speaker 2: your strategy is and then being willing to tolerate high
1:04:00
Speaker 2: risk for high benefit. And that is, I think, been
1:04:04
Speaker 2: to the great credit of her campaign. And she hasn't panicked.
1:04:07
Speaker 2: It was only a month ago that the New York
1:04:09
Speaker 2: Times wrote a story that was... very criticized by many
1:04:12
Speaker 2: of us, but made the point that she was struggling,
1:04:15
Speaker 2: not moving in the polls, not raising money. And since then,
1:04:17
Speaker 2: she has moved in the polls and raised a lot
1:04:18
Speaker 2: of money and is firmly ensconced herself in the top
1:04:22
Speaker 2: tier of the race. And that's very impressive. The other
1:04:25
Speaker 2: thing I just say about her campaign is she has
1:04:29
Speaker 2: adjusted over time. I thought, I sort of dreaded in
1:04:33
Speaker 2: some ways what Elizabeth Warren's presidential campaign would look like
1:04:37
Speaker 2: a few years ago when Trump first came into office
1:04:39
Speaker 2: and she was getting in these Twitter fights with Trump
1:04:41
Speaker 2: all the time.
1:04:41
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:04:42
Speaker 2: And it just felt very like she was, her strategy
1:04:45
Speaker 2: was drafting on Trump's insults of her and sort of
1:04:48
Speaker 2: allowing him to define the four corners of the conversation
1:04:51
Speaker 2: around Elizabeth Warren and that you're going to like, Trump's
1:04:54
Speaker 2: going to speak, you're going to respond. And it felt
1:04:55
Speaker 2: 2016 ish to me.
1:04:56
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:04:57
Speaker 2: But since then she has found a way to tell
1:05:00
Speaker 2: her story and communicate her message absent Trump, right? Like Trump,
1:05:06
Speaker 2: like Trump is a, is part of every part of
1:05:09
Speaker 2: every conversation in America. So you don't have to mention
1:05:10
Speaker 2: it all the time. And, Her way of communicating, her
1:05:13
Speaker 2: way of telling her story right now has really changed
1:05:16
Speaker 2: since the early part of the Trump era to a
1:05:17
Speaker 2: way that I think is a much more effective both
1:05:19
Speaker 2: primary and general election strategy. And it's impressive.
1:05:22
Speaker 3: So some of the other candidates released big policy proposals
1:05:24
Speaker 3: of their own this week. Joe Biden promised to triple
1:05:27
Speaker 3: spending on low-income schools for things like teacher raises and
1:05:29
Speaker 3: access to pre-K. Beto became the second candidate to release
1:05:33
Speaker 3: a comprehensive immigration plan that would offer a pathway to
1:05:36
Speaker 3: citizenship for undocumented immigrants and end deportations of undocumented immigrants
1:05:40
Speaker 3: who don't have criminal backgrounds. Kamala Harris released a plan
1:05:43
Speaker 3: based on the Voting Rights Act that would require states
1:05:45
Speaker 3: to get preclearance to pass new abortion restrictions if the
1:05:48
Speaker 3: state has a bad track record. Dan, what's your reaction
1:05:52
Speaker 3: to these plans? And do you think these candidates have
1:05:54
Speaker 3: felt pressured at all by Warren putting all her plans out?
1:05:58
Speaker 1: And should they?
1:06:01
Speaker 2: I think they all seem very like like much of
1:06:04
Speaker 2: the policy that's been released by all the candidates. Well
1:06:07
Speaker 2: thought out, aggressive policy. speaks to the moment we're in.
1:06:13
Speaker 2: And by the moment we're in, I don't mean Trump
1:06:15
Speaker 2: being president. I mean a world in which we're living
1:06:18
Speaker 2: in a world of massive transformation, both in our government
1:06:21
Speaker 2: and our economy, et cetera. And so bold. These are good,
1:06:26
Speaker 2: bold plans. I'm not an expert enough in some of
1:06:29
Speaker 2: them to know the exact precision of how good they are,
1:06:32
Speaker 2: but they're compelling. I certainly think Elizabeth Warren is putting
1:06:37
Speaker 2: some pressure on some candidates to put out more policies
1:06:40
Speaker 2: because she set the bar. But this is also, in
1:06:43
Speaker 2: fairness to these candidates, this is how you run for president, right?
1:06:48
Speaker 2: You try to tell the public what you stand for,
1:06:52
Speaker 2: what kind of president you would be, and you try
1:06:53
Speaker 2: to do it in a way that makes news, right?
1:06:55
Speaker 2: Kamala Harris did her announcement in anticipation of an MSNBC
1:06:59
Speaker 2: town hall she was doing. Beto O'Rourke is someone who's
1:07:02
Speaker 2: defined his candidacy around growing up and representing a border district.
1:07:08
Speaker 2: And so immigration is an important part of it. So
1:07:10
Speaker 2: I think there's some pressure, but this is also what
1:07:13
Speaker 2: presidential campaigns should be doing. It's what they sort of
1:07:16
Speaker 2: owe the voters. And it's an important part of strategy.
1:07:18
Speaker 2: The key is making your policies be more than a
1:07:20
Speaker 2: one-day press hit. They have to be a data point
1:07:22
Speaker 2: in a larger story that you're trying to tell the public.
1:07:24
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I mean, I thought the same thing too.
1:07:27
Speaker 1: Your policies... It's not.
1:07:29
Speaker 3: Just about throwing out random policies to satisfy people who
1:07:32
Speaker 3: are saying, you need more policy. You're not substantive enough.
1:07:34
Speaker 3: Look at all of Elizabeth Warren's policy. And then you
1:07:37
Speaker 3: react by throwing out a bunch of policy. Every policy
1:07:40
Speaker 3: proposal you release, every press event you do, every strategic
1:07:45
Speaker 3: move you make should be in service of the larger
1:07:48
Speaker 3: story you're trying to tell about why you should be president,
1:07:53
Speaker 3: why people should vote for you in this very crowded
1:07:56
Speaker 3: field over everybody else. And even if you don't want
1:07:59
Speaker 3: to make the explicit argument about why you should be
1:08:02
Speaker 3: the nominee and not everyone else, it should be implicit
1:08:06
Speaker 3: in just about everything that you say. And I do think, look,
1:08:09
Speaker 3: Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders have to worry about this
1:08:12
Speaker 3: a little less because they have near universal name ID.
1:08:16
Speaker 3: They're at the top of the field. Everyone knows who
1:08:17
Speaker 3: they are. And so they're going to lay out their
1:08:20
Speaker 3: plans and talk about why they should be president.
1:08:22
Speaker 1: That's that.
1:08:23
Speaker 3: And then you have the next sort of two people
1:08:25
Speaker 3: in the polls saying, Pete Buttigieg and Elizabeth Warren, they've
1:08:29
Speaker 3: sort of been able to stand out. I mean, Warren's
1:08:33
Speaker 3: policy is her message in some ways. All of her
1:08:35
Speaker 3: plans add up to a larger story about where she
1:08:38
Speaker 3: wants to take the country and what's currently broken about
1:08:40
Speaker 3: our politics. Pete's personal story and his age and where
1:08:44
Speaker 3: he comes from in many ways is his message. He's
1:08:49
Speaker 3: lighter on the policy side right now, but he's sort
1:08:51
Speaker 3: of telling a story about who he is and where
1:08:52
Speaker 3: he comes from and generational change.
1:08:54
Speaker 1: That's his message.
1:08:55
Speaker 3: I think then when you get to Beto and Kamala,
1:08:58
Speaker 3: who are sort of the next two people in the polls,
1:09:01
Speaker 3: you know, they both stand out in different ways and
1:09:04
Speaker 3: have different stories to tell. But I think their challenge
1:09:07
Speaker 3: is to figure out what policies they can put together,
1:09:11
Speaker 3: what tactics, what strategies they can all put together that
1:09:13
Speaker 3: tells very unique stories about each of them and why
1:09:17
Speaker 3: they would be you know, the best nominee and why
1:09:20
Speaker 3: they should stand out and why you should vote for
1:09:21
Speaker 3: them and not all of these other qualified nominees.
1:09:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It is, you know, every candidate needs
1:09:30
Speaker 2: to know why they're running for president, what story they
1:09:33
Speaker 2: want to tell voters. And if you don't know that,
1:09:35
Speaker 2: you're going to run a very poor campaign because everything's
1:09:39
Speaker 2: just going to be pretty fucking random. I think that
1:09:42
Speaker 2: the Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg comparison is really interesting because
1:09:47
Speaker 2: Warren is running entirely on policy and Buttigieg is running
1:09:50
Speaker 2: almost entirely without policy, which doesn't mean he doesn't have positions,
1:09:54
Speaker 2: but he has been very deft at running in a
1:09:59
Speaker 2: way that allows people to, regardless of where the, he's
1:10:03
Speaker 2: alighted the debates around issues like Medicare for All or
1:10:08
Speaker 2: the Green New Deal by kind of being for broad
1:10:11
Speaker 2: versions of lots of things. So if you're for Medicare
1:10:13
Speaker 2: for All, Mayor Pete has given you reason, as he
1:10:16
Speaker 2: did in the Positive America interview, to believe he's open
1:10:18
Speaker 2: to a Bernie Sanders version of Medicare for All, but
1:10:22
Speaker 2: if you're against that, he has said he's also willing
1:10:25
Speaker 2: to consider a buy-in. It's just very interesting that you
1:10:29
Speaker 2: can have success entirely with policy and have almost as
1:10:32
Speaker 2: much or as much success without a focus on policy.
1:10:36
Speaker 2: It's two different campaigns both being run well.
1:10:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:10:40
Speaker 3: What ties them both together is knowing what your story
1:10:43
Speaker 3: is and why it's unique compared to the rest of
1:10:46
Speaker 3: the field and driving that message home every single day
1:10:49
Speaker 3: and not being random about what you decide to speak
1:10:52
Speaker 3: about and what, you know, where you decide to go.
1:10:54
Speaker 1: So, okay. When we return, we.
1:10:57
Speaker 3: Will have our interview with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Dave Mandel
1:11:01
Speaker 3: of Veep. On the pod today, we have Veep's star
1:11:13
Speaker 3: and its showrunner, Julia Louis-Dreyfus and David Mendel. Hi.
1:11:17
Speaker 4: Hello.
1:11:18
Speaker 5: Welcome. Thank you.
1:11:20
Speaker 1: It's so good to have you guys here.
1:11:21
Speaker 8: Thank you.
1:11:22
Speaker 5: This is exciting.
1:11:23
Speaker 1: This is exciting.
1:11:24
Speaker 9: I'm freaking out.
1:11:26
Speaker 3: I don't know if I've ever laughed harder than the
1:11:29
Speaker 3: last season of Veep.
1:11:30
Speaker 6: Yay.
1:11:30
Speaker 5: It was incredible.
1:11:32
Speaker 8: Well, you were a part of it. Yes.
1:11:33
Speaker 5: You guys were big parts of it. Two things that
1:11:36
Speaker 5: I 100% know of and also a lot of.
1:11:41
Speaker 5: Spiritual help and like sending us to people to talk
1:11:43
Speaker 5: to but two really killer jokes I mean are we
1:11:46
Speaker 5: allowed to start with.
1:11:47
Speaker 4: That yeah but just for the listeners and they understand
1:11:50
Speaker 4: John you came in and spoke with the writers and
1:11:55
Speaker 4: producers which.
1:11:56
Speaker 5: Is a big part of our process I mean we've
1:11:58
Speaker 5: talked about that too that sort of the opening certainly
1:12:01
Speaker 5: month of our show is like for us a really
1:12:03
Speaker 5: kind of kind of good excuse to bring people like
1:12:05
Speaker 5: you guys in. Yeah.
1:12:06
Speaker 1: It's like the most fun thing I ever did. It's
1:12:08
Speaker 1: like really enjoyable.
1:12:09
Speaker 5: It's like, like our little kind of weird salon or something.
1:12:12
Speaker 5: It's like our podcast that we're not recording basically.
1:12:15
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:12:15
Speaker 6: Right.
1:12:15
Speaker 8: Exactly.
1:12:16
Speaker 1: So I did that for a while. And then Tommy,
1:12:18
Speaker 1: you did it too.
1:12:18
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:12:19
Speaker 1: I hung out with the writers of a talk, Iowa.
1:12:21
Speaker 5: Oh, I was hardcore Iowa. Yeah.
1:12:24
Speaker 7: We just geeked out about all things corn related.
1:12:26
Speaker 8: Yes, of course. All of which we, and.
1:12:29
Speaker 5: So when you were there, the opening scene of the
1:12:32
Speaker 5: final season, which was the landing at the wrong airport.
1:12:36
Speaker 5: And again, I can't remember if we said it in
1:12:37
Speaker 5: the room right then and there into your face, but
1:12:40
Speaker 5: I can only tell you when you left, I wrote down,
1:12:44
Speaker 5: I'm going to steal everything that guy has, never bring
1:12:48
Speaker 5: him back. We own him. No, but that just became
1:12:52
Speaker 5: the opening scene of Selena trying to make her announcement
1:12:55
Speaker 5: and being at the wrong airport. And I don't think
1:12:57
Speaker 5: we did the same you guys, we did Cedar Rapids,
1:13:01
Speaker 5: Cedar Falls or something like that?
1:13:04
Speaker 1: Cedar Rapids.
1:13:05
Speaker 7: He was supposed to land in Des Moines.
1:13:06
Speaker 8: Got it.
1:13:07
Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm such a doofus that I watched the episode.
1:13:09
Speaker 1: I was like, holy shit, that happened to Obama too.
1:13:11
Speaker 8: No kidding.
1:13:12
Speaker 5: That's amazing.
1:13:13
Speaker 1: I remember like a year and a half ago. You're
1:13:14
Speaker 1: unbelievably stupid.
1:13:18
Speaker 8: That's hilarious.
1:13:19
Speaker 4: But the thing is, is that I honestly believe that
1:13:22
Speaker 4: if that hadn't been pitched as a real thing, I would.
1:13:25
Speaker 5: Have pushed back. Run on the edge of dinging it.
1:13:26
Speaker 8: Yes, I would have pushed back at Dave and said, no,
1:13:29
Speaker 8: it's too broad. It's not plausible, et cetera, et cetera.
1:13:31
Speaker 1: Can you imagine being Barack Obama? I didn't remember that happened.
1:13:33
Speaker 5: And you opened a plane.
1:13:34
Speaker 7: We were just like, what the fuck, man?
1:13:36
Speaker 5: How does this happen? But the other thing, too, was,
1:13:39
Speaker 5: I mean, I will say, not to geek out for
1:13:41
Speaker 5: a second, but it was so great to shoot because
1:13:44
Speaker 5: you get to do that kind of like, I don't know,
1:13:46
Speaker 5: like Silence of the Lambs, like you're in the wrong
1:13:48
Speaker 5: place where it seems like a plane is landing and
1:13:51
Speaker 5: that sort of hello, Iowa moment. And it was a
1:13:54
Speaker 5: really good joke. So thank you for messing that up.
1:13:57
Speaker 4: And then the other huge joke. was we got from John,
1:14:02
Speaker 4: and it was in the final episode of the season,
1:14:05
Speaker 4: and that's when Selina is taking.
1:14:09
Speaker 8: Repeatedly taking, but in this case taking, yeah.
1:14:11
Speaker 4: Repeatedly taking language from the speech of DeVito, Governor DeVito,
1:14:17
Speaker 4: who is the veteran.
1:14:20
Speaker 8: Wounded warrior. Wounded warrior.
1:14:22
Speaker 5: That was our little ad, because you told the story
1:14:24
Speaker 5: about how basically you got sent by the Carrie campaign...
1:14:28
Speaker 5: to take lines from Obama, right? That was your first
1:14:30
Speaker 5: time you ever met him.
1:14:31
Speaker 3: That was the first time I met Obama, is that Obama,
1:14:33
Speaker 3: Kerry said that Obama had a line in his convention
1:14:35
Speaker 3: speech that Kerry wanted to use.
1:14:38
Speaker 5: Did we steal the same line, too? Something about multiple
1:14:40
Speaker 5: Americas or two Americas or three Americas? I think we
1:14:42
Speaker 5: made it. Was it something in that ballpark? Stand for America? Well, yeah.
1:14:45
Speaker 3: The interesting thing was there was, so the most famous
1:14:48
Speaker 3: one was Kerry having the same line as Barack Obama
1:14:51
Speaker 3: in his speech. But there was also, so when Kerry
1:14:55
Speaker 3: walked out, he said, I'm John Kerry reporting for duty.
1:14:58
Speaker 3: which made sense because he was a Vietnam vet. But
1:15:01
Speaker 3: introducing John Kerry was Senator Max Cleland.
1:15:05
Speaker 5: That was it. I remember that. Yes, of course. Triple amputee.
1:15:10
Speaker 5: Which we did not go triple. We went one crutch,
1:15:14
Speaker 5: kind of a limp, indistinct.
1:15:16
Speaker 3: And I'll just say, perhaps Max Cleland was thinking about
1:15:20
Speaker 3: using the line, I'm reporting for duty. He was going
1:15:23
Speaker 3: to say John Kerry is here reporting for duty. and
1:15:25
Speaker 3: then introduce John Kerry. That was going to be his line.
1:15:28
Speaker 5: It's funny.
1:15:29
Speaker 3: And then the advisors thought, wouldn't it be better if
1:15:31
Speaker 3: John Kerry said himself he's reporting?
1:15:33
Speaker 5: Because he had it already.
1:15:35
Speaker 7: Right.
1:15:35
Speaker 9: It's as if, so you stole from John Kerry, John
1:15:39
Speaker 9: Kerry stole from Max Cleland. So in a lot of ways,
1:15:41
Speaker 9: you stole from Max Cleland as well.
1:15:42
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's how we like to think of it. Exactly.
1:15:44
Speaker 5: That's exactly it.
1:15:45
Speaker 1: I did the same thing, though.
1:15:46
Speaker 3: I watched that episode, and as soon as I saw
1:15:48
Speaker 3: that go down, I was like, did I tell this story?
1:15:51
Speaker 5: Yes, you did.
1:15:52
Speaker 4: Yes, you did.
1:15:53
Speaker 5: And we wrote it down instantly. We ran with it.
1:15:55
Speaker 5: Selena steals language from Crippled Guy.
1:15:57
Speaker 8: That's what I wrote on a board.
1:15:59
Speaker 4: I remember it vividly because I was there that day
1:16:01
Speaker 4: and I remember looking at Dave and we both sort
1:16:03
Speaker 4: of looked at each other and.
1:16:03
Speaker 8: Nodded and were like, oh yeah, that's going in.
1:16:06
Speaker 5: She's going to do that. And we actually introduced, even
1:16:11
Speaker 5: though he barely has a line, but in our debate episode,
1:16:14
Speaker 5: we very specifically introduced hired um it's played by uh
1:16:18
Speaker 5: ian roberts who's one of the ucb co-founders with matt
1:16:21
Speaker 5: walsh so one of the really original improv guys we
1:16:25
Speaker 5: hired him for this nothing role which was to stand
1:16:29
Speaker 5: at one of the debate podiums with a crutch just
1:16:34
Speaker 5: so that and i had to explain to him yes
1:16:37
Speaker 5: in episode three yeah thank you for doing this right
1:16:40
Speaker 5: it will pay off she's going to do all this.
1:16:43
Speaker 5: And we didn't even know at that point he was
1:16:45
Speaker 5: going to be her VP possible pick.
1:16:47
Speaker 4: We just knew she was going to steal from him.
1:16:49
Speaker 5: She's going to steal from you and your story. And
1:16:51
Speaker 5: so it was like trying, it was, and he was
1:16:54
Speaker 5: good enough to do it too. But yeah, so that was,
1:16:56
Speaker 5: that went right in.
1:16:57
Speaker 7: I mean, I think what people love about the show,
1:16:59
Speaker 7: what I love about the show is you guys spare
1:17:00
Speaker 7: no one. So is it ever hard to deliver or
1:17:03
Speaker 7: write or get out a joke about a disabled veteran
1:17:06
Speaker 7: who you're just kicking the shit out of? Listen, I
1:17:10
Speaker 7: don't know what Tommy, I thought it worked. I don't
1:17:12
Speaker 7: know what time is going on about.
1:17:14
Speaker 1: I apologize.
1:17:15
Speaker 8: But let me tell you, this show's been edited.
1:17:18
Speaker 1: Too, by the way.
1:17:19
Speaker 4: I mean, the 45-minute finale was originally an hour 15.
1:17:24
Speaker 4: Suffice it to say, there were a few more of
1:17:26
Speaker 4: those jokes in the original. I mean, we piled on.
1:17:29
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's always one where you just go, we can't
1:17:31
Speaker 5: do that one. But it always helps to make the
1:17:34
Speaker 5: other ones that much more digestible. Like, well, we cut
1:17:37
Speaker 5: that really horrible one.
1:17:40
Speaker 3: When did you know how the series would end, and
1:17:43
Speaker 3: did real-life politics affect it? Because I read somewhere that
1:17:46
Speaker 3: there was an original ending, and you guys changed it.
1:17:49
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:17:50
Speaker 8: Wait, when did we know how it was going to end?
1:17:51
Speaker 5: Is that the question?
1:17:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly how the series was going to end.
1:17:53
Speaker 4: Well, we thought it was going to end one way about.
1:17:56
Speaker 5: We sat down to originally basically... Two years ago. Yeah,
1:17:59
Speaker 5: when we initially made the decision that this was it.
1:18:02
Speaker 5: We sat down and this was going to be it
1:18:04
Speaker 5: and here's this finale.
1:18:05
Speaker 8: Yes.
1:18:06
Speaker 5: And a lot of it is what you saw. I mean,
1:18:08
Speaker 5: it was a build to a brokered convention and all
1:18:11
Speaker 5: of those things. But I think it had, at the time,
1:18:14
Speaker 5: which was funny and good, but a more maybe less
1:18:17
Speaker 5: surprising ending or a variation, I guess, like Jonah screws
1:18:21
Speaker 5: things up and it costs her the presidency. And then
1:18:26
Speaker 5: years later, Richard calls her to be his vice president,
1:18:31
Speaker 5: a pick, sort of the Biden to his Obama, I guess.
1:18:35
Speaker 4: And we discussed about how would we see on camera
1:18:39
Speaker 4: her say yes, or we would see and I think
1:18:42
Speaker 4: we both decided we'd have to see that moment right
1:18:44
Speaker 4: before she says yes.
1:18:46
Speaker 5: Just as she starts to you get.
1:18:47
Speaker 4: The sense she might and then the show's over but
1:18:50
Speaker 4: then uh then we decided not to do that and
1:18:53
Speaker 4: the show.
1:18:54
Speaker 5: Shut down then we shut down yes.
1:18:56
Speaker 8: For my um cancer romp and.
1:18:59
Speaker 5: As i like to say the best thing that ever
1:19:01
Speaker 5: happened to the show honestly I mean, thank God. Honestly,
1:19:05
Speaker 5: thank God.
1:19:07
Speaker 8: I'm a team player, guys.
1:19:09
Speaker 2: I'm a team player.
1:19:11
Speaker 9: Cut it with a joke.
1:19:12
Speaker 4: But anyway, and so and it actually, in fact, all
1:19:16
Speaker 4: kidding aside or kidding included, it did help us because,
1:19:21
Speaker 4: you know, Trump carries on with his heinous self parading
1:19:25
Speaker 4: around like a maniac. And it helped us set the
1:19:29
Speaker 4: tone for the next season and helps us make decisions
1:19:33
Speaker 4: as to where we were going to end up.
1:19:34
Speaker 8: I mean, just because we get to live more in Trump.
1:19:36
Speaker 5: Yeah, we shut down right, I guess it was right
1:19:40
Speaker 5: before the holidays of 2017. And 2018, when he entered
1:19:46
Speaker 5: that second year of his presidency, that's when like, like
1:19:50
Speaker 5: you forget, like year one seemed calm in comparison. Year
1:19:54
Speaker 5: two was where he really like stepped on the throttle
1:19:57
Speaker 5: and just like, the falsehoods, the tweeting, it all just
1:20:01
Speaker 5: got more crazy. And as we were sitting around, it
1:20:05
Speaker 5: just started to feel like everything has changed. The norms
1:20:09
Speaker 5: are out the window. And in some extent, why is
1:20:12
Speaker 5: Selina Meyer the only person being punished?
1:20:15
Speaker 1: People who do shitty things do win.
1:20:18
Speaker 5: They're winning left and right. They're getting cabinet posts.
1:20:22
Speaker 8: And that's what drove us to that decision.
1:20:24
Speaker 3: It made sense because there was so long in the
1:20:26
Speaker 3: series where I thought to myself, Oh, it's got to
1:20:28
Speaker 3: end without her being president because it just seemed like
1:20:30
Speaker 3: that's where it was going. But when I saw the ending,
1:20:32
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, that actually totally makes sense with what's
1:20:35
Speaker 3: going on.
1:20:35
Speaker 1: In politics right now.
1:20:36
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:20:36
Speaker 9: She caught the car.
1:20:38
Speaker 8: She what?
1:20:38
Speaker 5: She caught the car. She caught the car.
1:20:40
Speaker 9: She's the dog that caught the car.
1:20:41
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:20:41
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:20:41
Speaker 9: She looks miserable.
1:20:43
Speaker 5: Right. It was good.
1:20:45
Speaker 1: I really liked it.
1:20:47
Speaker 9: I honestly only watched it. because you guys were coming in,
1:20:50
Speaker 9: not because I was afraid to say, that sounds bad,
1:20:53
Speaker 9: but it was because I was afraid to say goodbye
1:20:55
Speaker 9: to the show. I was so sad to see it going.
1:20:58
Speaker 5: I couldn't.
1:20:59
Speaker 1: You mean the last episode of this season?
1:21:01
Speaker 9: Yes, the last episode of this season. I just couldn't
1:21:03
Speaker 9: get myself to click play because I was so sad
1:21:05
Speaker 9: to see these characters go.
1:21:07
Speaker 8: Yeah, me too. It's been kind of a heartbreaker.
1:21:10
Speaker 3: We watched the debate episode on the drive back from
1:21:14
Speaker 3: a live show we did in New Hampshire. And we
1:21:17
Speaker 3: wanted to stream it, so we had all of our
1:21:20
Speaker 3: Wi-Fi set up. And Tommy and I were laughing in
1:21:23
Speaker 3: that bus so loudly.
1:21:26
Speaker 1: So hard. The debate thing was maybe the funniest scene
1:21:29
Speaker 1: of the whole.
1:21:30
Speaker 9: It was like being trapped on just two old uncles.
1:21:33
Speaker 9: Just laughing their heads off at a TV.
1:21:35
Speaker 5: I was weeping.
1:21:36
Speaker 3: It was.
1:21:37
Speaker 1: The man up thing was just.
1:21:38
Speaker 4: Oh, good.
1:21:39
Speaker 1: I mean, I've always wondered about that.
1:21:40
Speaker 3: I mean, you guys made a decision to depict the
1:21:44
Speaker 3: first woman president as basically a misogynist. Yeah.
1:21:48
Speaker 1: How did you how did you think about that?
1:21:51
Speaker 4: Well, I've always played her as a misogynist from almost
1:21:54
Speaker 4: day one. You know, we were constantly saying, you know,
1:21:57
Speaker 4: she would say things like, as a woman, I would
1:22:00
Speaker 4: never start a sentence again. with as a woman, you know,
1:22:03
Speaker 4: because everybody hates women.
1:22:04
Speaker 8: Why would I do that? By the way, that's right.
1:22:07
Speaker 4: I mean, you could make an argument that, you know, uh,
1:22:10
Speaker 4: women aren't that popular to a certain extent, you know,
1:22:13
Speaker 4: as certainly as leaders or to be taken seriously. And so, uh,
1:22:18
Speaker 4: she doesn't like her sex and for all sorts of reasons,
1:22:21
Speaker 4: she doesn't, I mean, and we don't have to go
1:22:23
Speaker 4: down that rabbit hole, but, um, so she's always been
1:22:26
Speaker 4: that way, but then we've sort of gotten.
1:22:29
Speaker 8: I would say more in your face with her gender.
1:22:33
Speaker 8: I think it's.
1:22:34
Speaker 5: Probably maybe started somewhere. Okay. I always thought like somewhere
1:22:39
Speaker 5: in the distant past where she didn't want to be
1:22:42
Speaker 5: treated differently. Like there was an attempt at, you know,
1:22:46
Speaker 5: I'm not the woman running for Congress or the woman
1:22:49
Speaker 5: running for Senator. I'm just somebody running. Like it starts
1:22:53
Speaker 5: in a, maybe it started in an okay place, but
1:22:56
Speaker 5: it- Maybe.
1:22:56
Speaker 8: But she had parents who weren't that fond of her.
1:22:59
Speaker 5: She had a psychological leaning, yes, exactly. So those two
1:23:02
Speaker 5: things collided, and it got worse. But it proved very
1:23:05
Speaker 5: popular to the American voting public, so you don't mess
1:23:08
Speaker 5: with perfection.
1:23:09
Speaker 8: It really spoke to the throngs.
1:23:12
Speaker 7: You told Vogue, extreme times call for extreme comedy.
1:23:19
Speaker 1: What do you think that means?
1:23:22
Speaker 4: Uh, you know, it came to me and I was
1:23:24
Speaker 4: just grateful to be able to say it in the moment.
1:23:26
Speaker 1: It's so good. It's so good.
1:23:28
Speaker 5: She was also just thrilled to be in Vogue.
1:23:29
Speaker 1: It was perfect.
1:23:30
Speaker 8: I was like buzzing. I was in Vogue. Um, no, um, I, I,
1:23:35
Speaker 8: I mean, these are extreme times.
1:23:37
Speaker 4: I think we could all agree to that no matter
1:23:40
Speaker 4: what side of the aisle you're on. And, um, And
1:23:43
Speaker 4: so we pushed the limits of what we were doing
1:23:47
Speaker 4: on the show this season. And so the comedy in
1:23:51
Speaker 4: our show was very extreme this season. And I think
1:23:54
Speaker 4: that had we, for instance, this material would never have
1:23:58
Speaker 4: flown three, four years ago. It would have been too,
1:24:03
Speaker 4: it would have been, we would have been like, what
1:24:05
Speaker 4: are you guys doing over there?
1:24:06
Speaker 5: But on the flip side, I do think there is
1:24:08
Speaker 5: a natural evolution, but I think on the flip side also, though,
1:24:11
Speaker 5: when you go back and watch, I sort of in
1:24:13
Speaker 5: the run up to the final season went through all
1:24:16
Speaker 5: of it and in light of what was going on,
1:24:18
Speaker 5: I rewatched all the seasons previous, some of it starts
1:24:22
Speaker 5: to seem quaint in a really strange way on the
1:24:25
Speaker 5: flip side. So these two things fight each other but
1:24:29
Speaker 5: you have to cut through the noise and I don't
1:24:31
Speaker 5: know how else to do it.
1:24:33
Speaker 3: The fact that she basically accidentally has her ex-husband killed
1:24:38
Speaker 3: And it wasn't like a big conversation when you guys
1:24:40
Speaker 3: did that in the show. People weren't really talking about
1:24:43
Speaker 3: that much the next day because it actually made sense.
1:24:46
Speaker 5: I know.
1:24:47
Speaker 1: I mean, that was insane. I just thought about that.
1:24:51
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh yeah, we sort of forgot that Andrew
1:24:52
Speaker 1: was killed two episodes ago.
1:24:55
Speaker 5: Or was he?
1:24:56
Speaker 8: Well, that's right. Or was he?
1:24:57
Speaker 4: Well, he wasn't, obviously, because you see him a couple
1:24:59
Speaker 4: times after the fact. But yeah, it's not that outrageous.
1:25:03
Speaker 5: But casual horribleness is the order of the day. And
1:25:06
Speaker 5: I guess... I don't know. I would almost rather someone
1:25:11
Speaker 5: kill their ex-husband than, I don't know, some of the
1:25:14
Speaker 5: stuff going on just in the education department. You know
1:25:17
Speaker 5: what I mean? I just wish we didn't have to choose.
1:25:21
Speaker 9: I just wish we didn't. It was such a horrible choice.
1:25:24
Speaker 9: So I feel like the insults got more baroque in
1:25:28
Speaker 9: this final season. But also, it does seem like you
1:25:31
Speaker 9: did not miss an opportunity to go after liberals, too.
1:25:34
Speaker 9: It does seem like the show chose... to make liberal
1:25:40
Speaker 9: language a target, in part because it was a primary
1:25:43
Speaker 9: about some of those issues, but do you feel like that,
1:25:46
Speaker 9: was that fun? Did you feel as though this was
1:25:48
Speaker 9: a chance that you guys had in this show that
1:25:50
Speaker 9: other shows don't have?
1:25:52
Speaker 5: You, go ahead. Oh, I was gonna say, yeah. I mean,
1:25:54
Speaker 5: it was, from just a pure writing perspective, it was
1:25:58
Speaker 5: so much fun. And I do think it's one of
1:26:00
Speaker 5: the unique things that was laid down about Veep before
1:26:03
Speaker 5: I ever got there, by Armando when he created it,
1:26:05
Speaker 5: when you guys sort of set up that, there was
1:26:07
Speaker 5: no party, there was no Democrat, there was no Republican,
1:26:10
Speaker 5: that it's an equal opportunity offender. And I think it's,
1:26:14
Speaker 5: I guess I would hate for people to dismiss what
1:26:17
Speaker 5: we did this season as just Trump. You know what
1:26:20
Speaker 5: I mean? And that's, and I guess, so I guess
1:26:23
Speaker 5: in some ways I almost pride myself that we attack
1:26:27
Speaker 5: from the other side too and lay into them on
1:26:30
Speaker 5: whether it's the PC stuff, the language, a lot of
1:26:34
Speaker 5: the bending over backwards of diversity and some of these
1:26:37
Speaker 5: things to try and at least, again, have some fun
1:26:40
Speaker 5: with that stuff so that, again, it's an equal opportunity
1:26:43
Speaker 5: offender because it's that thing that you've always said when
1:26:45
Speaker 5: you meet people from D.C. that like.
1:26:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really doesn't matter who you're talking to, if
1:26:53
Speaker 4: it was John McCain back in the day or if
1:26:56
Speaker 4: it was Nancy Pelosi or whoever or this senator or
1:27:00
Speaker 4: that congresswoman.
1:27:02
Speaker 5: Please don't talk about John McCain.
1:27:03
Speaker 8: I'm so sorry.
1:27:04
Speaker 5: Thank you.
1:27:05
Speaker 8: But who is a fan of the show, by the way?
1:27:09
Speaker 4: But everybody, anybody we spoke with, first of all, thought
1:27:12
Speaker 4: we were making fun of the other party.
1:27:14
Speaker 5: Always. Always. Whoever we were with, oh, you guys are
1:27:18
Speaker 5: really sticking it to them. Pick your them.
1:27:21
Speaker 6: Right.
1:27:22
Speaker 4: But the thing, and I've said this before, but the
1:27:25
Speaker 4: thing that gave me a great deal of pride was
1:27:27
Speaker 4: when I had the incredible opportunity to briefly talk meet
1:27:31
Speaker 4: with Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan, and she told me
1:27:35
Speaker 4: that she and Tony Scalia would get together every week
1:27:40
Speaker 4: and have lunch post an episode of Veep to break
1:27:44
Speaker 4: it down and talk about Veep.
1:27:45
Speaker 8: And laugh about it. Now that gave me great joy.
1:27:49
Speaker 7: I read you guys sat down with Mitt Romney and
1:27:51
Speaker 7: that he was a fan of the show and provided
1:27:53
Speaker 7: insight before the fourth season.
1:27:54
Speaker 5: He came in just like you guys did.
1:27:55
Speaker 8: He came in.
1:27:56
Speaker 5: He was awesome.
1:27:57
Speaker 8: With Ann.
1:27:58
Speaker 5: Yeah, they both came.
1:27:58
Speaker 1: You guys yuck it up with Mitt?
1:27:59
Speaker 8: We did. He was charming. And he gave us a
1:28:04
Speaker 8: line that we stole from him, remember?
1:28:06
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:28:07
Speaker 8: If you're making excuses.
1:28:09
Speaker 5: Or if you're explaining.
1:28:10
Speaker 8: If you're explaining yourself, you're losing.
1:28:12
Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
1:28:12
Speaker 9: Did someone tell him that after he lost?
1:28:15
Speaker 5: I will tell you the most interesting thing about his loss,
1:28:17
Speaker 5: which was we actually, I mean, I don't want to
1:28:20
Speaker 5: say it was like the most in-depth interview he's ever had,
1:28:23
Speaker 5: but we did talk to him because I think it
1:28:24
Speaker 5: was when we were going into the previous season, so
1:28:27
Speaker 5: she was out of office. And so we had talked
1:28:30
Speaker 5: to a couple people, like, what's it like to lose?
1:28:33
Speaker 5: And the thing that was interesting was almost what he
1:28:36
Speaker 5: said was, he talked so much about you know his
1:28:39
Speaker 5: kids and his grandkids and and for and his wife
1:28:42
Speaker 5: and it's the support system and it was so funny
1:28:44
Speaker 5: because it was just everything he was saying we were
1:28:46
Speaker 5: just sitting there laughing going selena has none of this
1:28:49
Speaker 5: she's going to lose her mind so it's just really
1:28:52
Speaker 5: interesting to see somebody who was actually dealing with it
1:28:56
Speaker 5: kind of in a very adult way. So again, we
1:28:58
Speaker 5: get pieces of things in different places. I will tell, oh,
1:29:02
Speaker 5: go ahead.
1:29:02
Speaker 8: No, no, I don't want to interrupt.
1:29:03
Speaker 1: You go ahead.
1:29:03
Speaker 5: Oh, I was just going to say, he went and
1:29:05
Speaker 5: used the men's room and he didn't lock the door
1:29:07
Speaker 5: and somebody walked in on him, but he doesn't know that.
1:29:10
Speaker 8: He does now.
1:29:11
Speaker 5: I don't think he listens to this show.
1:29:14
Speaker 8: I'm going to send him the link.
1:29:16
Speaker 9: They get podcasts in Utah?
1:29:17
Speaker 5: No, no. No, we're going.
1:29:21
Speaker 1: Welcome, Tom.
1:29:22
Speaker 5: No, you're not.
1:29:23
Speaker 3: Why do you think people root for Selena, even though
1:29:27
Speaker 3: she's such a horrible person? Because I found myself rooting
1:29:30
Speaker 3: for her by the end, too.
1:29:31
Speaker 1: And I'm like, what?
1:29:32
Speaker 5: Really?
1:29:33
Speaker 8: Even towards the very, very end?
1:29:34
Speaker 3: Well, we should talk about Gary, because Gary made us
1:29:37
Speaker 3: all sad.
1:29:39
Speaker 5: You root up to the Tom James, I think, which
1:29:42
Speaker 5: is on purpose. You're like, when she takes down Tom James...
1:29:45
Speaker 5: I was rooting for that. Yes.
1:29:46
Speaker 1: The whole thing with Tom James is amazing.
1:29:47
Speaker 5: You're like really happy.
1:29:49
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's so good.
1:29:50
Speaker 5: It's so good. And you're clapping and then you start
1:29:53
Speaker 5: to go, oh my God, what am I clapping? Like
1:29:56
Speaker 5: she's a monster. And that was, you know, we tried.
1:29:59
Speaker 9: No, she's a monster. The way she tells her daughter
1:30:02
Speaker 9: that her father is dead is pretty tough. Sort of
1:30:06
Speaker 9: in passing.
1:30:07
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:30:08
Speaker 9: It's a tough thing to hear in passing.
1:30:09
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:30:12
Speaker 8: She told him and then she told her and then
1:30:13
Speaker 8: she left. I.
1:30:15
Speaker 4: I don't know why you're rooting for her, except, you know,
1:30:18
Speaker 4: to play her, I have to root for her. So
1:30:22
Speaker 4: maybe you're picking up on that.
1:30:23
Speaker 8: You know, you can't play a.
1:30:26
Speaker 4: Heinous or sort of evil, inherently evil character, which she
1:30:30
Speaker 4: really is ultimately, becoming more sort of evil over seasons.
1:30:36
Speaker 4: But you can't play her with that kind of judgment.
1:30:40
Speaker 4: I mean, everybody has a backstory, even the worst people
1:30:42
Speaker 4: in the world.
1:30:43
Speaker 8: So you've got to. come at it that way, you know?
1:30:46
Speaker 5: I always say I think, A, she has skills. I mean,
1:30:49
Speaker 5: you know, she got to where she was for reasons.
1:30:53
Speaker 5: But also, forgive me, they like this lady here. I
1:30:57
Speaker 5: think when people go, we want Selena to be president.
1:31:00
Speaker 5: It's not quite what they mean. I think they mean
1:31:02
Speaker 5: they would like you to be president.
1:31:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, that definitely has something to do with that.
1:31:06
Speaker 8: Maybe, but I would also.
1:31:07
Speaker 1: I'm.
1:31:08
Speaker 5: Allowed to say it.
1:31:08
Speaker 8: You're allowed to, but I'm going to reject that theory.
1:31:12
Speaker 5: Welcome to our world.
1:31:14
Speaker 4: But I'm going to say that I think, too, the
1:31:19
Speaker 4: frustrations that she has, particularly early on in her career,
1:31:23
Speaker 4: are ones that you can identify with, you know, and
1:31:27
Speaker 4: being constantly.
1:31:29
Speaker 8: put back down, shove back down.
1:31:31
Speaker 4: I mean, who doesn't identify with that, you know?
1:31:34
Speaker 5: Right.
1:31:34
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:31:34
Speaker 9: So something that like, I think was true in the
1:31:37
Speaker 9: early seasons, true in the later seasons as well, that
1:31:39
Speaker 9: there are little moments where there's cracks and the real
1:31:44
Speaker 9: world and the real consequences of politics seeps through and
1:31:49
Speaker 9: Selena gets upset, right? When she meets a veteran or something,
1:31:52
Speaker 9: she gets sort of like shaken up by having met
1:31:53
Speaker 9: somebody who is affected by these policies. How, you know,
1:31:59
Speaker 9: can you talk a little bit about just sort of
1:32:01
Speaker 9: when the real world and the real consequences were allowed
1:32:04
Speaker 9: to seep through? It happens a few times in this season.
1:32:06
Speaker 9: I mean, she's staring at a row of monks was
1:32:09
Speaker 9: pretty tough, but so, you know, it's a game, right?
1:32:12
Speaker 9: There's a show, it's a comedy, it's a game. And
1:32:14
Speaker 9: yet you're, there are little touches of when the real
1:32:16
Speaker 9: world shines through.
1:32:18
Speaker 4: Well, if it helps the joke, then it's going to
1:32:22
Speaker 4: shine through. I mean, I think that's the, the, the
1:32:24
Speaker 4: fact of the matter.
1:32:25
Speaker 8: She's, In that.
1:32:27
Speaker 4: Particular episode, she's made a deal to... After freeing Tibet
1:32:32
Speaker 4: to unfree Tibet. And you can see that she's met
1:32:40
Speaker 4: with the kind of horror of that, but she doesn't
1:32:43
Speaker 4: change her mind, obviously.
1:32:44
Speaker 9: But she can tell it's wrong. She knows she feels guilty.
1:32:47
Speaker 8: Yeah, and you even see it in the final episode.
1:32:49
Speaker 8: A little bit. Not enough to make her.
1:32:51
Speaker 1: She hugs Gary at the end, too.
1:32:52
Speaker 8: Yes, of course, absolutely. Or when he's gone. And, you know,
1:32:55
Speaker 8: there is always an... I mean, you know, at what...
1:32:58
Speaker 8: At what price this glory for her.
1:33:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, the last episode is so emotional.
1:33:03
Speaker 7: There's that really touching scene with Kevin Dunn who plays
1:33:06
Speaker 7: Ben in his hospital room.
1:33:07
Speaker 8: Yeah.
1:33:08
Speaker 7: There's the really poignant scene when you're all alone for
1:33:11
Speaker 7: like one second in the Oval Office.
1:33:13
Speaker 1: You sort of feel the weight.
1:33:14
Speaker 7: And then there's Gary at the coffin at the end
1:33:16
Speaker 7: and just, I don't know, it's like.
1:33:17
Speaker 1: Tearing up for Gary.
1:33:19
Speaker 7: Poor Tony Hale just got screwed.
1:33:21
Speaker 8: He got way screwed.
1:33:22
Speaker 5: But he loved it.
1:33:22
Speaker 1: He was cool with it.
1:33:24
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:33:25
Speaker 8: The actor or the character?
1:33:27
Speaker 5: Gary, sorry.
1:33:28
Speaker 1: I'm switching.
1:33:30
Speaker 8: I don't think he loved it.
1:33:31
Speaker 1: He was like, the flowers look great or something.
1:33:33
Speaker 4: No, no, no.
1:33:33
Speaker 9: I think there's a little anger there at first.
1:33:36
Speaker 5: But he can't help himself.
1:33:37
Speaker 8: No, but he does show up and he does bring...
1:33:40
Speaker 8: the Dubonnet lipstick.
1:33:41
Speaker 1: And place it on her coffin.
1:33:42
Speaker 5: It's a two-way dysfunctional relationship.
1:33:43
Speaker 3: It did remind me of, like, this is the cautionary
1:33:45
Speaker 3: tale of the top aide that stays along.
1:33:48
Speaker 5: Too long.
1:33:49
Speaker 1: Too long.
1:33:49
Speaker 8: Yes.
1:33:50
Speaker 5: That's a real, like, DC thing?
1:33:52
Speaker 1: Oh, that's great.
1:33:52
Speaker 5: A little bit of that.
1:33:53
Speaker 1: You're like, man, you've been there. You're still there?
1:33:55
Speaker 8: Yeah.
1:33:56
Speaker 1: 20, 30, 40 years later.
1:33:57
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's Reggie Love, age 49.
1:33:59
Speaker 5: Oh, that's the other... By the way, that's the other
1:34:01
Speaker 5: story we stole. But we had Gary sleeping by her
1:34:05
Speaker 5: front door at a hotel. Oh, yeah.
1:34:08
Speaker 1: Did Reggie do that? For different reasons.
1:34:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was going to say that. Anyway. But that
1:34:15
Speaker 5: was another one. Thank you, guys.
1:34:17
Speaker 3: I was interested in the foreign interference storyline in this season.
1:34:22
Speaker 3: A lot of DC types during the Mueller investigation basically
1:34:25
Speaker 3: made the case the Trump campaign was too incompetent and
1:34:28
Speaker 3: bumbling to actually collude with the Russians. You guys seem
1:34:33
Speaker 3: to prove the opposite or just prove that that's not true,
1:34:37
Speaker 3: that this sort of incompetent, bumbling administration sort of fell
1:34:41
Speaker 3: into colluding with the Chinese.
1:34:43
Speaker 1: Were you thinking about that at all when you had
1:34:45
Speaker 1: that storyline?
1:34:46
Speaker 8: Well, it started a long time ago, that storyline.
1:34:49
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know. The funny thing, and again, or the
1:34:51
Speaker 5: horrible thing, take your pick, is Selina's ongoing involvement with
1:34:56
Speaker 5: the Chinese and Tibet.
1:34:59
Speaker 1: And started like season three, I think.
1:35:01
Speaker 5: I mean, it hit for it hit hard in like
1:35:03
Speaker 5: five for us. I mean, they had been around and
1:35:06
Speaker 5: then that was something we really started to go after.
1:35:10
Speaker 5: And so I can't say to you back then it
1:35:13
Speaker 5: was 100 percent like, oh, and I can't wait till
1:35:14
Speaker 5: they try and like collude and affect the election in
1:35:17
Speaker 5: a very similar way. But it was there. I mean,
1:35:21
Speaker 5: that that was what was so like horrifying was it
1:35:24
Speaker 5: was we were like right up next to it. without
1:35:28
Speaker 5: even knowing it. I mean, I don't know how else
1:35:29
Speaker 5: to say that. We bumbled into it. Yeah, we sort
1:35:32
Speaker 5: of bumbled into it the same way Selena did, which
1:35:34
Speaker 5: was kind of, you sort of just had to.
1:35:38
Speaker 8: And then once it was there, she embraced it because,
1:35:42
Speaker 8: you know, why not? Do whatever it takes.
1:35:44
Speaker 5: But I think what was so, and I guess, I
1:35:46
Speaker 5: don't know if we were making it, it wasn't on
1:35:48
Speaker 5: our agenda, but I do think there was this element
1:35:50
Speaker 5: of like, how easy it could be. Like, I mean,
1:35:54
Speaker 5: you hate to say it, but like, we had those
1:35:55
Speaker 5: jokes with like, uh, Merman, where he's trying to buy
1:36:00
Speaker 5: in and he's like, new plan, I'll buy your house
1:36:02
Speaker 5: in Palm Beach for $ 110 million. I mean, we're still
1:36:09
Speaker 5: waiting on some of these real estate taxes to kind
1:36:12
Speaker 5: of come through. It's just not that hard.
1:36:15
Speaker 1: Right, and there's a lot of different avenues and possibilities.
1:36:17
Speaker 5: No kidding.
1:36:20
Speaker 8: It's funny, but it's awful.
1:36:21
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:36:23
Speaker 1: Do you see any anti-Selenas in the field right now?
1:36:27
Speaker 8: Anti-Selena's.
1:36:28
Speaker 9: Or Selena's. Name a Selena. We'll take a Selena.
1:36:34
Speaker 4: I think this Pete Buttigieg is pretty anti-Selena.
1:36:42
Speaker 1: That's true.
1:36:42
Speaker 8: He strikes me as such.
1:36:44
Speaker 5: Yeah.
1:36:46
Speaker 8: But it's too early days.
1:36:48
Speaker 5: I don't... I do think he has a good sense
1:36:49
Speaker 5: of humor, though.
1:36:50
Speaker 8: Great sense of humor.
1:36:51
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think he's got a really good sense of
1:36:52
Speaker 5: humor and a really good sense of timing, if nothing else.
1:36:54
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:36:55
Speaker 5: Like on a pure... building blocks of comedy. We always,
1:36:59
Speaker 5: with casting, there are people that are enemies of comedy,
1:37:04
Speaker 5: and then friends of comedy, which they can kinda handle it-ish,
1:37:08
Speaker 5: and then actual comedy generators. I think he's sort of
1:37:12
Speaker 5: a comedy generator, and I'm okay with a friend of
1:37:15
Speaker 5: comedy in the White House, or a comedy generator, preferably
1:37:18
Speaker 5: not an enemy of comedy.
1:37:20
Speaker 9: Where do you put Trump in that?
1:37:22
Speaker 5: I know. He's like, again, the norms. I don't know.
1:37:25
Speaker 5: Like an accidental comedy generator? I don't know.
1:37:28
Speaker 1: That's a good.
1:37:28
Speaker 9: Yeah, I guess.
1:37:30
Speaker 5: I don't know if he's ever been intentionally funny. I
1:37:33
Speaker 5: think he tries.
1:37:34
Speaker 8: I guess when he tries, it's the worst.
1:37:36
Speaker 9: He wants to be funny.
1:37:37
Speaker 5: He thinks it's funny.
1:37:39
Speaker 8: He's a bully.
1:37:39
Speaker 7: Yeah, he's mean funny.
1:37:41
Speaker 8: He's a bully.
1:37:44
Speaker 1: We're not fans.
1:37:46
Speaker 5: I'm not. Oh, I was misled then, actually.
1:37:49
Speaker 3: I noticed, Julia, that in 2018, you were sort of
1:37:52
Speaker 3: got into real life politics a little bit, you know,
1:37:54
Speaker 3: you filmed a video trying to get people to vote. Was,
1:37:58
Speaker 3: was it, was it Trump? Was it all your years
1:38:00
Speaker 3: on the show? I mean, what, what sort of pushed you?
1:38:03
Speaker 4: Oh, I've, I've done a lot of political sort of
1:38:06
Speaker 4: activism sort of over the years.
1:38:09
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:38:09
Speaker 4: I mean, we went, I took my boys and went to,
1:38:11
Speaker 4: in fact, that's where the Nevada, Nevada joke came from because.
1:38:16
Speaker 5: We went training, right?
1:38:18
Speaker 6: Yes.
1:38:18
Speaker 8: When we went, uh, first go-round, 2008, right?
1:38:21
Speaker 3: Yes.
1:38:21
Speaker 8: And we went to Nevada and I took the kids
1:38:22
Speaker 8: and we just were going.
1:38:30
Speaker 2: Door-to-door.
1:38:30
Speaker 4: And that was the training they gave us, was don't
1:38:33
Speaker 4: say Nevada, which is, of course, how it's meant to
1:38:37
Speaker 4: be pronounced.
1:38:38
Speaker 1: They're crazy about that.
1:38:39
Speaker 8: They're crazy.
1:38:40
Speaker 5: We got three seasons out of that, though. I mean, literally,
1:38:44
Speaker 5: we had those jokes. I mean, could not get enough
1:38:47
Speaker 5: of it.
1:38:47
Speaker 1: Obama could never get his head around the fact that
1:38:49
Speaker 1: you can't say Waterloo, Iowa. It's Waterloo. Waterloo.
1:38:53
Speaker 5: And they get upset. Waterloo.
1:38:54
Speaker 1: You have to say it like that or else they
1:38:55
Speaker 1: yell at you.
1:38:56
Speaker 4: Okay.
1:38:57
Speaker 8: I wish I'd known that because.
1:38:58
Speaker 5: We could have used that. We would have worked that in.
1:39:00
Speaker 5: Why didn't you tell us?
1:39:01
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:39:02
Speaker 5: Movie? Do I want to go to the movies with you?
1:39:06
Speaker 5: I would love to.
1:39:08
Speaker 8: I saw a great movie.
1:39:09
Speaker 9: Seven seasons in a movie?
1:39:11
Speaker 5: Oh.
1:39:12
Speaker 1: I don't know.
1:39:12
Speaker 4: We can't wrap our head around anything right now. We're
1:39:14
Speaker 4: still recovering from having made that finale. It took every
1:39:18
Speaker 4: fiber of our emotional, creative, intellectual beings to get that
1:39:23
Speaker 4: thing out.
1:39:25
Speaker 8: We crawled here today.
1:39:26
Speaker 5: It was like a brutal labor. A good labor. Good, good.
1:39:29
Speaker 4: We had a beautiful baby, but it was 88 hours
1:39:32
Speaker 4: of labor followed by a C-section.
1:39:34
Speaker 5: There was a moment where we were sitting in the
1:39:36
Speaker 5: fake oval together, and you had just gotten out of
1:39:40
Speaker 5: your wig, and you were like, I don't know, but
1:39:42
Speaker 5: both of us were just like sweating for no reason.
1:39:44
Speaker 5: It was just like, and we were just like, yeah.
1:39:47
Speaker 5: I know. That's what it felt like. Do you want
1:39:49
Speaker 5: to see a movie with me?
1:39:49
Speaker 9: That was my question. Sorry to get back to it.
1:39:54
Speaker 5: I will say the following, which is the Trump stuff,
1:39:56
Speaker 5: it just made it hard. It really did. I mean,
1:39:58
Speaker 5: I feel like we got out just in time. And
1:40:01
Speaker 5: so I never say never, but it just like, it
1:40:04
Speaker 5: got really hard. Like just every move and whether it was,
1:40:08
Speaker 5: sometimes it was just worrying like, you know, we did
1:40:11
Speaker 5: the thing where we had the runner, the killer runner,
1:40:15
Speaker 5: and then all of a sudden down in Florida, like,
1:40:18
Speaker 5: shoot him, and you just start to go like, oh. Yeah.
1:40:21
Speaker 3: It was just, it's a, And by the time you watch,
1:40:24
Speaker 3: you really do think, I was like, oh, that's because
1:40:26
Speaker 3: of the Trump rally.
1:40:27
Speaker 5: No, that was after the fact. It's like a year
1:40:29
Speaker 5: before it. It just felt like they were catching up.
1:40:32
Speaker 4: By the way, same for the vaccination stuff.
1:40:34
Speaker 9: Right, you were ahead of that too.
1:40:35
Speaker 8: We were ahead of that. That was two years ago.
1:40:37
Speaker 5: Two years ago we started on that one.
1:40:39
Speaker 9: Maybe you've got to stop giving this guy ideas.
1:40:40
Speaker 8: Yeah, right.
1:40:42
Speaker 5: That was the Colbert thing we did.
1:40:44
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we did a sketch with Colbert.
1:40:45
Speaker 8: We went on the Colbert.
1:40:46
Speaker 5: Show where he basically pops into the Veep universe to say,
1:40:50
Speaker 5: stop it. Like you're changing our world.
1:40:52
Speaker 4: Everything you're doing is coming true in our world. And
1:40:55
Speaker 4: then there's the whole thing about numerals, Arabic numerals.
1:41:00
Speaker 5: Oh my God, with the Muslim math. I mean, it's
1:41:02
Speaker 5: like you sit down, I sit down with a group
1:41:05
Speaker 5: of some of the smartest people I know, the writers,
1:41:08
Speaker 5: and we have this amazing cast and we work to
1:41:10
Speaker 5: come up with some of the stupidest stuff in the world.
1:41:13
Speaker 5: And then it's just like, that sounds great. America, let's
1:41:16
Speaker 5: do it. And you just shake your head. And I
1:41:19
Speaker 5: guess that's why It did have to end.
1:41:23
Speaker 1: Why?
1:41:23
Speaker 9: Obviously, there's the obvious ways Trump makes it hard, right?
1:41:26
Speaker 9: He's he's so extreme. But are there other ways in
1:41:28
Speaker 9: which Trump being this larger than life figure makes it
1:41:31
Speaker 9: hard to write fiction about this moment?
1:41:35
Speaker 4: I think so, because discourse has sort of fallen away.
1:41:38
Speaker 4: And and the way people communicate with one another is
1:41:42
Speaker 4: he's that landscape has been changed, not just by him,
1:41:46
Speaker 4: by the way, you know.
1:41:48
Speaker 8: I think we have a lot of folks to thank,
1:41:49
Speaker 8: including Fox News.
1:41:51
Speaker 5: He is a symptom or he's part of the disease.
1:41:53
Speaker 5: But it's like so much of what the show was
1:41:57
Speaker 5: built on doesn't seem shocking. I mean, it's sort of
1:41:59
Speaker 5: what I was saying before. It just doesn't seem shocking.
1:42:00
Speaker 5: The language doesn't really seem shocking. Or we had to
1:42:04
Speaker 5: push it so far that it got almost borderline crazy shocking.
1:42:10
Speaker 5: And I guess that sort of, there's that concept of like,
1:42:15
Speaker 5: Maybe it's time for another West Wing show, something a
1:42:17
Speaker 5: little more inspirational. Based on the moon?
1:42:22
Speaker 8: Based on what?
1:42:22
Speaker 9: Based on the moon?
1:42:23
Speaker 5: Where is it?
1:42:25
Speaker 1: Is it under the ocean?
1:42:26
Speaker 5: I know, but it's that idea of maybe it's a
1:42:29
Speaker 5: small town politics show. Come on, let's beat this thing out.
1:42:32
Speaker 5: You know what I mean? Come on. But just in
1:42:35
Speaker 5: the sense of go the other way.
1:42:37
Speaker 1: It's going to be escapism from something.
1:42:38
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. Because our horrible people Watching our horrible people,
1:42:43
Speaker 5: it stopped maybe being an escape from the real horrible people.
1:42:47
Speaker 5: I don't know.
1:42:48
Speaker 7: There's a line in the last episode. I think you're
1:42:50
Speaker 7: talking to Marjorie or Catherine. You say, restore faith in democracy.
1:42:53
Speaker 7: We couldn't do that if we wanted to. And that
1:42:54
Speaker 7: felt very real. It felt very meta.
1:42:57
Speaker 5: But very frustrated, too. Like, what are we supposed to do?
1:43:01
Speaker 8: I can't take that on.
1:43:05
Speaker 1: That's a lot to ask.
1:43:07
Speaker 3: Did the show and all the conversations you had with
1:43:10
Speaker 3: people like us who are in politics... Did it change
1:43:12
Speaker 3: your view of politics along the way? Have you taken
1:43:15
Speaker 3: any sort of lessons about real-life politics with you after
1:43:19
Speaker 3: doing the show?
1:43:24
Speaker 8: For me, it has, for the good and the bad.
1:43:28
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:43:28
Speaker 8: Really. You know, I mean, it's awfully nice.
1:43:31
Speaker 1: What's on the good side of the ledger?
1:43:32
Speaker 4: On the good side of the ledger is when you
1:43:34
Speaker 4: meet people who are earnestly trying to do the right thing.
1:43:37
Speaker 4: And we have come across those kinds of people. None
1:43:42
Speaker 4: of you, incidentally.
1:43:44
Speaker 5: Some of the people you put us in contact with, though,
1:43:47
Speaker 5: were really great.
1:43:49
Speaker 4: So that is, and you are struck with the actual
1:43:55
Speaker 4: work that's involved, you know, the minutia of the work.
1:44:00
Speaker 4: It's labor-intensive, I don't have to tell you, you know.
1:44:04
Speaker 4: The part of it for me that's scary is, sort
1:44:09
Speaker 4: of like watching this Chernobyl show on HBO. I don't
1:44:12
Speaker 4: know if anybody's seen that, but... Oh, my God.
1:44:15
Speaker 8: Anyway... It's.
1:44:16
Speaker 9: Really been heating up. Oh, no, that's... I've been doing
1:44:19
Speaker 9: this all day.
1:44:19
Speaker 8: You must edit that out. Edit that out.
1:44:23
Speaker 9: The reviews have been glowing.
1:44:25
Speaker 8: Again, that needs to be snipped out of the show.
1:44:28
Speaker 8: But anyway... We.
1:44:30
Speaker 5: Have some vaults.
1:44:31
Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly.
1:44:33
Speaker 9: I've been blown away.
1:44:34
Speaker 4: That people are just human beings, simply... just human beings.
1:44:40
Speaker 4: And you think of them as being.
1:44:42
Speaker 9: It really shines a light on that, I'd say.
1:44:43
Speaker 4: But who are capable of making mistakes just like you
1:44:49
Speaker 4: and I would. And that can be terrifying when so
1:44:53
Speaker 4: much is at stake.
1:44:55
Speaker 1: Well, that's about right.
1:44:57
Speaker 8: I mean, I don't know. That's my little summation. Did
1:45:00
Speaker 8: I get an A?
1:45:01
Speaker 6: Yes.
1:45:02
Speaker 5: I was just going to say, I don't know, I
1:45:04
Speaker 5: guess having met some good people I don't know, I'm
1:45:09
Speaker 5: not sure it restored my faith in the system, but
1:45:12
Speaker 5: I feel like, I don't know, I feel like my
1:45:14
Speaker 5: own involvement, such as it is, has increased. Like the
1:45:17
Speaker 5: desire to whether it's, you know, phone bank or donate
1:45:22
Speaker 5: or whatever, when I find someone or something that's worth doing,
1:45:27
Speaker 5: like that desire is there maybe even more so than
1:45:30
Speaker 5: it was previously. That there is still a chance and
1:45:35
Speaker 5: that maybe sometimes it's got to be you know, whether
1:45:38
Speaker 5: it's like on the state house level or wherever it is,
1:45:41
Speaker 5: but that you, yeah, you know, I found myself, you know,
1:45:44
Speaker 5: tweeting last night about Virginia state house in a way
1:45:47
Speaker 5: that I don't think I would have pre-VIP. I mean, maybe,
1:45:51
Speaker 5: who knows, but you know what I mean? So yeah.
1:45:54
Speaker 6: Yeah.
1:45:54
Speaker 4: But also because it's, it's, you know, to use the
1:45:57
Speaker 4: Nixon phrase now more than ever, because it's, it couldn't
1:46:00
Speaker 4: be more important.
1:46:01
Speaker 8: It's not just the top of the ticket. There's so
1:46:04
Speaker 8: much at stake.
1:46:05
Speaker 5: So, you know.
1:46:06
Speaker 9: So I understand that this is apparently the 30th anniversary
1:46:09
Speaker 9: of Seinfeld is happening.
1:46:11
Speaker 5: Oh, yeah. I guess so.
1:46:13
Speaker 8: What month is this?
1:46:14
Speaker 4: May.
1:46:14
Speaker 5: Okay.
1:46:15
Speaker 9: So that shocked me because what? But also that was
1:46:19
Speaker 9: a long time. It did not feel that long ago.
1:46:21
Speaker 9: But you've now been one of the great comedic actors
1:46:25
Speaker 9: for now multiple characters that have defined television comedy, defined
1:46:31
Speaker 9: roles for women. That's an incredible run.
1:46:34
Speaker 1: Incredible.
1:46:35
Speaker 9: Amazing. performances that like have stuck with so many people.
1:46:40
Speaker 9: What are you interested in doing next? Like what is
1:46:42
Speaker 9: the next thing you want to take on?
1:46:46
Speaker 8: Well, I'll say two things. One, first of all, thank
1:46:49
Speaker 8: you very much. and so it doesn't.
1:46:51
Speaker 5: Make up for the Chernobyl jokes, but thank you.
1:46:53
Speaker 1: Nothing.
1:46:53
Speaker 9: It's fine guys. It's going to be, you know what?
1:46:56
Speaker 2: You just cover it up.
1:46:57
Speaker 8: I have a final cut on this whole thing. So
1:46:59
Speaker 8: don't worry about it.
1:46:59
Speaker 9: Put a sarcophagus right over it. So, um, uh, people
1:47:04
Speaker 9: from getting out.
1:47:05
Speaker 8: Wait, can you repeat your question?
1:47:06
Speaker 2: No, I'm just kidding.
1:47:08
Speaker 5: You are one of the most talented, beautiful, intelligent.
1:47:13
Speaker 9: I don't care.
1:47:14
Speaker 1: He didn't say beautiful.
1:47:15
Speaker 8: He didn't say beautiful.
1:47:17
Speaker 9: I'm not allowed anymore. Even though I'm gay, I think
1:47:19
Speaker 9: I'm still not allowed.
1:47:20
Speaker 1: Radiant is the word you're using.
1:47:22
Speaker 9: It's a Chernobyl joke.
1:47:25
Speaker 5: You see?
1:47:27
Speaker 4: I need to take a little bit of a breather
1:47:28
Speaker 4: because we've been running, you know, really, really hard for
1:47:33
Speaker 4: a number of years doing Veep, and there's been a
1:47:36
Speaker 4: lot going on. And so I need to take a
1:47:39
Speaker 4: little break just to breathe and read or something. I've
1:47:43
Speaker 4: heard books are good these days. But for me, it's
1:47:47
Speaker 4: just about finding material. And good material is not that
1:47:53
Speaker 4: easy to come by. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's a little
1:47:55
Speaker 4: bit of a search and, um, and that good material
1:48:00
Speaker 4: would mean something maybe.
1:48:05
Speaker 8: Dramatically different than what I've been doing. So, um, I
1:48:09
Speaker 8: don't know. Do you have anything? Cause I'll do anything
1:48:10
Speaker 8: at this point.
1:48:12
Speaker 5: I mean, it's been like two weeks. She's going crazy.
1:48:15
Speaker 5: She is.
1:48:16
Speaker 8: It's like guys, I'll learn to tap dance, whatever you want.
1:48:19
Speaker 8: I have got to perform again.
1:48:24
Speaker 3: Well, you can always join us here on Pod Save
1:48:26
Speaker 3: America anytime. Thank you both for giving.
1:48:28
Speaker 1: Us one of the greatest television shows of all time.
1:48:31
Speaker 8: Oh, it's so nice for you to say thank you.
1:48:33
Speaker 8: It's such a treat to be here.
1:48:34
Speaker 1: It's a treasure.
1:48:34
Speaker 9: I'm amazed I made words come out of my mouth.
1:48:37
Speaker 1: I'm still freaking out.
1:48:38
Speaker 8: Oh, don't freak out.
1:48:39
Speaker 5: And I'm never starstruck.
1:48:40
Speaker 1: I'm not. I meet presidents. I don't give a shit.
1:48:44
Speaker 1: I really don't. Thanks, Obama.
1:48:49
Speaker 8: I met Obama. I was very starstruck by him, I
1:48:51
Speaker 8: have to say.
1:48:52
Speaker 4: He's cool.
1:48:53
Speaker 8: Yeah, he's pretty cool. I met him a few times.
1:48:56
Speaker 8: I thought he was pretty cool.
1:48:57
Speaker 5: No big deal.
1:48:57
Speaker 8: Yeah, no big deal. Guys, we're good friends, and I've
1:48:59
Speaker 8: got his cell phone number.
1:49:00
Speaker 5: Whatever.
1:49:06
Speaker 3: Thank you to Julia Louis-Dreyfus and Dave Mendel for joining
1:49:09
Speaker 3: us today, and we will see you next week.
1:49:12
Speaker 5: Bye, everyone.
1:49:24
Speaker 7: Thank you.