Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Healing Trauma From The Roots Up with Rachel B Aarons

Transcript

Healing Trauma From The Roots Up with Rachel B Aarons · The Trauma Therapist

0:00
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Theypists podcast. My name is got Macpherson.
0:04
Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who dedicated their lives to helping
0:07
Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go
0:12
Speaker 1: five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back
0:16
Speaker 1: to the podcast. Very excited to have as my guest today,
0:19
Speaker 1: Doctor Rachel Aaron's. Rachel welcome, Thank you.
0:24
Speaker 2: So.
0:24
Speaker 1: Doctor Rachel Aarons has over forty years of experience as
0:27
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist. Initially trained as a philosopher, she served as
0:31
Speaker 1: an associate professor at the University of Toronto before transitioning
0:35
Speaker 1: to therapy and earning her master's in Social work. Doctor
0:38
Speaker 1: Aaron's initially specialized in hypnotherapy and became a certified EMDR
0:43
Speaker 1: Therapist in twenty oh four. Her current focus in the
0:47
Speaker 1: Early Trauma Protocol, a groundbreaking approach to addressing early attachment
0:51
Speaker 1: injuries that shape emotional and relational patterns throughout life. Her
0:56
Speaker 1: mission is to train therapists, heal clients, and educate the
0:59
Speaker 1: public look on how early childhood experiences impact lifelong challenges. Today,
1:04
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about her forthcoming book titled
1:07
Speaker 1: Therapist Guide to Healing Trauma from the roots up. Rachel, welcome,
1:14
Speaker 1: Thank you for being here. Before we get going, share
1:16
Speaker 1: with our listeners where you're from originally and where you
1:18
Speaker 1: are currently.
1:20
Speaker 3: I was originally in Canada in the East. I grew
1:25
Speaker 3: up in in Toronto, and I moved then to Vancouver
1:31
Speaker 3: to the other coast, and from Vancouver, I came to
1:36
Speaker 3: Santa Barbara, where I am currently living.
1:40
Speaker 1: Okay, so again, we are going to talk about your book,
1:45
Speaker 1: but just give our listeners a nutshell of how you
1:49
Speaker 1: got into this field. Give us, give us, give us
1:52
Speaker 1: the nutshell.
1:54
Speaker 3: Well, do you mean, in general, how I got into
1:56
Speaker 3: being a therapist or how I got into being a trauma.
1:59
Speaker 1: Therapist the latter.
2:01
Speaker 3: Okay, So, actually, I, as was mentioned, I was using
2:08
Speaker 3: hypnotherapy until I discovered EMDR, and I got excited about
2:15
Speaker 3: the fact that we could make very immediate and effective
2:18
Speaker 3: changes very quickly using EMDR as a methodology. As I
2:24
Speaker 3: moved forward and was inspired by a teacher of mine,
2:29
Speaker 3: I realized that there's a whole other range of experience
2:34
Speaker 3: that has been largely underestimated and somewhat ignored because it
2:41
Speaker 3: comes prior to language and explicit memory. So it seemed
2:50
Speaker 3: like it was inaccessible, and I began being interested in
2:55
Speaker 3: working through how to access that period of time because
3:00
Speaker 3: it is my conviction that that is what shapes all
3:04
Speaker 3: the problems that human beings experience later in life, and
3:09
Speaker 3: so it's crucial and we need to know where all
3:13
Speaker 3: those patterns began.
3:16
Speaker 1: So it is, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's our
3:20
Speaker 1: earlier preverbal life patterns that shape are the issues the
3:30
Speaker 1: trauma that we experience.
3:33
Speaker 3: That's right. They underlie the trauma.
3:36
Speaker 1: They underlie the trauma, correct. Okay, so they underlie the trauma.
3:42
Speaker 1: Does that mean are you saying they cause the trauma
3:46
Speaker 1: or what's the relationship between them and the trauma.
3:50
Speaker 3: What I've discovered is that it is insecure attachment in
3:55
Speaker 3: the relationship between parents and children from the get go
4:00
Speaker 3: that shapes the concepts that people have about themselves and
4:05
Speaker 3: the ways they develop their approach to relationships, their behavior
4:13
Speaker 3: in the future, and how they develop their career or
4:19
Speaker 3: work history. All of those things stem from having usually
4:25
Speaker 3: insecure attachment.
4:27
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. Okay.
4:30
Speaker 1: The book's titled Therapist's Guide to Healing Trauma from the
4:33
Speaker 1: Roots Up. Why did you write this book?
4:39
Speaker 3: Thank you for asking that I was actually reviewing what
4:46
Speaker 3: my lofty goals were for this work. I was recognizing
4:53
Speaker 3: that my ambitions were probably not going to get fulfilled
4:57
Speaker 3: in the timeframe that I have I have given I
5:04
Speaker 3: guess it was about five webinars, and I have those
5:07
Speaker 3: webinars were introductions to this methodology, so there were literally
5:12
Speaker 3: hundreds of people that attended, so they know a little
5:15
Speaker 3: bit about my work, but not enough to be trained
5:19
Speaker 3: as the therapist we need if we want to address
5:23
Speaker 3: the problems that clients have and get to the roots,
5:27
Speaker 3: get to the original source, and that would require that
5:32
Speaker 3: I do, like I don't know how many practicum trainings
5:37
Speaker 3: which are fourteen hours, and then follow up practice in
5:43
Speaker 3: consultation groups to make sure that people have the skills
5:49
Speaker 3: to help people go through this methodology, and the methodology
5:53
Speaker 3: I developed is pretty intense and pretty complicated. And you
5:59
Speaker 3: and I spoke recently. When we first met, we shared
6:04
Speaker 3: the opinion that the best training for therapists is experiential,
6:10
Speaker 3: not academic or cognitive primarily, and that it works with
6:16
Speaker 3: the unconscious mind, and that people need to deal with
6:20
Speaker 3: their own problems using this methodology if they're going to
6:24
Speaker 3: be able to extend that understanding to their clients, and
6:29
Speaker 3: I think we both shared that view that that's a
6:32
Speaker 3: really key way of having therapists develop their understanding of
6:38
Speaker 3: themselves and then of clients.
6:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you said a lot right within that
6:46
Speaker 1: chunk of three sentences. I think you said a lot.
6:51
Speaker 1: So as an entree into getting more specific about the
6:57
Speaker 1: book and what is involved, help our listeners understand why
7:05
Speaker 1: this methodology, how this methodology is different from the methodologies
7:12
Speaker 1: already in existence.
7:14
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, it's not essentially an AMDR methodology,
7:18
Speaker 3: which means that I'm switching in that work to a
7:24
Speaker 3: different approach that I have developed. And part of that
7:29
Speaker 3: is attachment photos, which are experiential I call them a
7:34
Speaker 3: kind of a moving rorshak, and these help people get
7:39
Speaker 3: in touch with through the photos what they missed, what
7:44
Speaker 3: they would have wished for and deserved. So it's preparation
7:48
Speaker 3: for doing the work of the actual time segments, looking
7:54
Speaker 3: at what went wrong in each period of time from
7:59
Speaker 3: conception to age four.
8:02
Speaker 1: So these photographs are tell us more about these photographs
8:06
Speaker 1: or images or pictures.
8:08
Speaker 3: Well, the first set, which is really unique to me,
8:12
Speaker 3: I guess, are pictures of animals because people are less
8:17
Speaker 3: defensive in dealing, in viewing, and responding to animals than
8:23
Speaker 3: they are to human beings in many cases. And these
8:26
Speaker 3: show how animals offer secure attachment to their progeny. So
8:33
Speaker 3: they can then say, oh, I didn't have that, or
8:37
Speaker 3: I did have that, but I didn't have this. They
8:40
Speaker 3: can begin to explore their own experience through that medium.
8:45
Speaker 1: So were these photographs that you took or your people
8:49
Speaker 1: took or what?
8:51
Speaker 3: No, they're actually photos that I found on royalty free
8:57
Speaker 3: images that are available online certain companies.
9:01
Speaker 1: Interesting, So you help me out here, So as the therapist,
9:08
Speaker 1: you would lay these out in front of your client
9:13
Speaker 1: or how does it work?
9:14
Speaker 3: I use slides which are viewed on a monitor on
9:19
Speaker 3: a TV monitor, okay, and their color slides, so they're
9:28
Speaker 3: they're pretty, they elicit strong feelings, okay.
9:33
Speaker 1: And the idea is to are you asking your client
9:37
Speaker 1: to react to them or what's the prompt here?
9:43
Speaker 3: As they this will be true throughout the whole there's
9:47
Speaker 3: a lot of photos throughout the whole process that they're
9:50
Speaker 3: basically looking at what they experience in the slides and
9:55
Speaker 3: asking themselves is this familiar to me or not in
10:00
Speaker 3: my own personal experience of being parented by my specific bioparents.
10:08
Speaker 2: Okay, and you use that information.
10:14
Speaker 3: To begin to formulate their own history before there is
10:21
Speaker 3: explicit memory and language, So they're beginning to recognize that
10:26
Speaker 3: there was an impact. And part of what I'm about
10:30
Speaker 3: is convincing people that there is an impact in those years.
10:36
Speaker 3: They can't be ignored or dismissed because obviously the babies
10:42
Speaker 3: don't remember those experiences, and that is dangerous because parents
10:48
Speaker 3: will then act as if how they treat those children
10:52
Speaker 3: at those ages doesn't matter because they won't remember. Actually,
10:57
Speaker 3: memory is very much of that, but in a different
11:01
Speaker 3: form than we're accustomed to.
11:05
Speaker 1: So compared to say, em DR or another modality, how
11:17
Speaker 1: is this talk about the differences?
11:22
Speaker 3: Well, the main or first comment is that EMDR usually
11:33
Speaker 3: requires explicit memory. We have a traumatic experience or we're
11:38
Speaker 3: stuck with a particular pattern of behaving, and we have
11:44
Speaker 3: experiences that we remember that can explain and be worked
11:50
Speaker 3: through using that methodology. But the problem the challenges that
11:57
Speaker 3: in those early years there is no memory and no language,
12:01
Speaker 3: so we have to find ways to interpret the negative
12:06
Speaker 3: sensations that arise in the body as we look at
12:10
Speaker 3: those early experiences and the photos are helping people formulate
12:16
Speaker 3: what might have happened to them. Then they work it
12:21
Speaker 3: through in a processing model.
12:26
Speaker 1: You talked about the importance of the therapist get involved
12:35
Speaker 1: involving themselves in this education information as well, and how
12:40
Speaker 1: integral that is to this work. Talk more about that well.
12:46
Speaker 3: In the way that I have been teaching this, we
12:52
Speaker 3: break down into diads or triads, and people share the
12:58
Speaker 3: responses they're having and the way they're learning about themselves
13:06
Speaker 3: as very young children, infants and very young children. So
13:12
Speaker 3: they have an opportunity to participate live well. I mean
13:17
Speaker 3: it can be online as well, but with other people
13:21
Speaker 3: who are playing the role of therapist. One of the
13:26
Speaker 3: challenges of writing a book is you don't have that
13:31
Speaker 3: possibility because a book doesn't have other people there to
13:36
Speaker 3: talk to. But my feeling was that I would not
13:41
Speaker 3: have the time and the energy to do the amount
13:44
Speaker 3: of training that would be required to have therapists prepared
13:50
Speaker 3: to work with clients using this methodology, and so I
13:54
Speaker 3: was afraid that it would it would not have the
13:59
Speaker 3: impact that I I hoped for in terms of changing
14:03
Speaker 3: the picture of dealing with trauma for clients.
14:09
Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about the structure of the book.
14:12
Speaker 2: How did you lay it out?
14:16
Speaker 3: Well, I've only mentioned about the very beginning of attachment photos,
14:22
Speaker 3: but let me explain the book as a whole. As
14:25
Speaker 3: you're asking. There's an introductory section, and then I broke
14:28
Speaker 3: it into modules. And the first module are the prerequisites
14:34
Speaker 3: that are standalone methods that help people in their lives,
14:38
Speaker 3: but are also required methods to do this work, the
14:45
Speaker 3: healing trauma from the roots up work. And then the
14:48
Speaker 3: second module is the one that we had started to
14:51
Speaker 3: speak about, which is attachment secure and insecure attachment using
14:57
Speaker 3: the attachment photos. And also, because we do repair through
15:06
Speaker 3: a mythic family that they develop, we also need to
15:11
Speaker 3: help them choose the mythic parents that work for them,
15:16
Speaker 3: the people they would have wished to have as their
15:18
Speaker 3: parents if they had a choice. And then the third
15:23
Speaker 3: section is the actual processing of time segments, starting with
15:28
Speaker 3: preconception and working their way through each segment of time
15:34
Speaker 3: after that, through pregnancy, birth and each of the trimesters,
15:41
Speaker 3: and through each of the years of early life. And
15:47
Speaker 3: that is the actual application of the methodology that will
15:53
Speaker 3: inquire looking at what went wrong and then of repairing
15:57
Speaker 3: it with the parents that they have chose because that
16:02
Speaker 3: gives them the experience in imagination of secure attachment. And
16:07
Speaker 3: as you know, I think imagination is the vehicle of
16:11
Speaker 3: understanding of the unconscious mind.
16:15
Speaker 1: Right the first part you mentioned that there were kind
16:23
Speaker 1: of standalone what components that were necessary for doing this work.
16:29
Speaker 2: Say more about.
16:29
Speaker 3: Those, Okay, sure, two of them are very common and
16:35
Speaker 3: used by a number of different therapists. I take my
16:40
Speaker 3: examples from hypnotherapy in those that's container or containment and
16:45
Speaker 3: safe state. What it does is it helps people to
16:51
Speaker 3: set aside issues that they can't work on in the moment,
16:55
Speaker 3: and so worrying about them or being preoccupied just gets
16:59
Speaker 3: in the way of whatever else they're trying to do.
17:03
Speaker 3: So we need to be able to put something aside
17:06
Speaker 3: when we can't sleep because we're worrying or because we're
17:10
Speaker 3: obsessing about something we can't change. So containment often goes
17:16
Speaker 3: as a pair with safe state, and safe state is
17:21
Speaker 3: the experience that someone had of being really calm and
17:27
Speaker 3: peaceful and being able to go into that state by
17:34
Speaker 3: experiencing a special place that they felt that way in.
17:39
Speaker 3: So a safe space and safe state and safe place
17:43
Speaker 3: are connected. Safe state being the feelings they have when
17:48
Speaker 3: they are really relaxed and at peace. There's a third one,
17:54
Speaker 3: and it's more complicated.
17:56
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, we'll leave that for the people who get
18:00
Speaker 1: the book and so forth. So that's the first part.
18:03
Speaker 1: There's a second part, and the third part we'll get into.
18:06
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, as a therapist doing this work, is
18:14
Speaker 1: this would you consider this verbal talk therapy or how
18:23
Speaker 1: would you categorize it? Is this somatic work? Is this
18:28
Speaker 1: type of hypnotherapy?
18:31
Speaker 3: Well, I guess I mean it's verbal in the sense
18:34
Speaker 3: that we talk, but it is not talk therapy in
18:37
Speaker 3: my view. It's much more involved in experiencing and going
18:45
Speaker 3: to the roots in the unconscious mind. These memories are
18:50
Speaker 3: held in the body, so it is also somatic, and
18:54
Speaker 3: the interpretation of them is the key contribution that the
19:00
Speaker 3: work makes to helping us understand what actually happened to
19:06
Speaker 3: our clients in those early years.
19:08
Speaker 1: The interpretation by the client or the therapist or both.
19:14
Speaker 3: The interpretation I'm referring to is all that there are
19:17
Speaker 3: actually twelve different subjects that can be utilized to fill
19:23
Speaker 3: in the details of what was going on when someone
19:26
Speaker 3: is experiencing negative sensations, and they can be fairly subtle.
19:31
Speaker 3: You know, just a little bit of pressure here, or
19:33
Speaker 3: just a little bit of disturbance in their stomach, or
19:37
Speaker 3: you know, kind of anything that bodily response that indicates
19:42
Speaker 3: that something was going wrong for baby at that time.
19:47
Speaker 1: I mean, for lack of a better word, Rachel, this
19:50
Speaker 1: sounds very.
19:52
Speaker 2: Intense.
19:54
Speaker 1: I mean when I mean it does, You're inviting a
19:57
Speaker 1: client to what consider their preverbal experience. I mean, there's
20:10
Speaker 1: no other way around it. I mean, that's that's pretty intense.
20:14
Speaker 1: How do you invite someone to do that?
20:19
Speaker 3: Well, I guess the people that have heard of this work,
20:26
Speaker 3: and part of what I'm hoping is that more people
20:29
Speaker 3: will hear because of this podcast and other ways that
20:32
Speaker 3: I'm trying to explain this our call recognize that something
20:42
Speaker 3: fits for them, and they are motivated. But because it's
20:47
Speaker 3: painful to remember or to reframe your own reaction to
20:54
Speaker 3: what happened to you, we do a repair immediately, so
20:58
Speaker 3: we don't spend three ye in psychotherapy and then finally
21:03
Speaker 3: get to prepare. We do it immediately, and that's where
21:08
Speaker 3: the mythic parents come in. They are the experience they missed,
21:13
Speaker 3: and they have the feeling of what it would be
21:16
Speaker 3: like for those experiences that were so negative in the
21:19
Speaker 3: biofamily to be different in the mythic family with the
21:25
Speaker 3: mythic parents. And so what happens is cumulatively, they build
21:31
Speaker 3: a different picture of themselves of who they are really,
21:35
Speaker 3: who they would have been had they had the parenting
21:38
Speaker 3: they needed and deserved, and who they can still be
21:43
Speaker 3: as they recognize their potential and also as they are
21:48
Speaker 3: parents and parent their own children differently.
21:52
Speaker 1: Now, how does that everything you just said relate to
21:56
Speaker 1: one's trauma that they experienced.
22:02
Speaker 3: Well, a lot of trauma begins in those early years
22:08
Speaker 3: with either abuse emotional, sexual or physical abuse, or with
22:18
Speaker 3: neglect either physical neglect or emotional neglect, or with adoption
22:25
Speaker 3: for example, which no matter how wonderful they adoptive parents
22:30
Speaker 3: might be, it's still a trauma to be quote unquote.
22:34
Speaker 3: It feels like rejected by your actual biological parents.
22:42
Speaker 2: Right.
22:42
Speaker 1: But what I guess more specifically we're talking about here.
22:47
Speaker 1: Your therapy is talking about accessing one's preverbal experiences, and
22:55
Speaker 1: my question was the trauma that experienced that after that,
23:02
Speaker 1: how are you addressing what's the relationship between that work
23:08
Speaker 1: that you're doing with a client to access their preverbal
23:12
Speaker 1: experience to the trauma that happened maybe four or five
23:15
Speaker 1: years later or.
23:17
Speaker 3: Ten or twenty. Yeah, Well, when you have a pattern
23:21
Speaker 3: of insecure attachment, that means that you're going to have
23:26
Speaker 3: ways of responding in relationships that are problematic. I mean
23:31
Speaker 3: they can be extreme as being a perpetrator of abuse,
23:35
Speaker 3: domestic violence, gun violence, and so on, or they can
23:39
Speaker 3: be more commonplace. In terms of what our divorce rates
23:45
Speaker 3: indicate is that people have a lot of trouble getting
23:48
Speaker 3: along in relationships. Some people are avoiding, some people are ambivalent,
23:55
Speaker 3: some people I mean, there are different patterns of relating.
23:59
Speaker 3: So that's the impact in relationships. People in prison, for example,
24:04
Speaker 3: who are incarcerated, will often have insecure attachment in their
24:09
Speaker 3: early life, so they don't trust anybody, they don't have
24:13
Speaker 3: limitations or boundaries around how they treat others. Potentially. I mean,
24:19
Speaker 3: it's all connected, all of it. It's so much. That's
24:23
Speaker 3: why I got lofty ideas, because there's so much that
24:27
Speaker 3: can be helped looking at this basis, this foundation of
24:33
Speaker 3: behavior that is experienced later and the trauma of that behavior.
24:39
Speaker 1: And in kind of a shorthand way and correct me
24:48
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong here. It's the client's.
24:51
Speaker 4: Ability to quote unquote heal and repair that early experience
25:00
Speaker 4: which allows them to begin to heal that trauma or
25:05
Speaker 4: maybe heal that trauma.
25:07
Speaker 3: Yes, experience, Yeah, exactly exactly. So people are different as
25:12
Speaker 3: they go through this work. Sure, and they experienced emotional resilience.
25:20
Speaker 3: They're not as easily triggered. They're more calm and more
25:24
Speaker 3: able to pursue goals that they thought were impossible for them.
25:29
Speaker 3: They believed the limitations that were set by bioparents, the
25:34
Speaker 3: criticisms that were made the way they were treated as children,
25:41
Speaker 3: and for example, that they would never be smart enough
25:44
Speaker 3: to go to college, or that they could never be
25:47
Speaker 3: successful in a relationship, or that they could never be
25:50
Speaker 3: good parents. Whatever it was that limited them begins to
25:55
Speaker 3: open up and become possible for them as they actually
25:59
Speaker 3: were or essentially as children, and not the image they
26:05
Speaker 3: had of themselves through the lens of their biofamily.
26:11
Speaker 1: End. Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating to me enduring this process.
26:18
Speaker 1: To what degree are you addressing the directly addressing the
26:28
Speaker 1: trauma that has happened to this particular client.
26:37
Speaker 3: Well, I would say we're addressing it indirectly. I guess
26:40
Speaker 3: in the sense that it's changing the personality and the
26:44
Speaker 3: and the sense of self of the client. When it
26:48
Speaker 3: is direct, it's because something happened later that they feel
26:54
Speaker 3: is essential and getting in their way. And sometimes we
26:58
Speaker 3: will stop and do EMDR with an event that occurred
27:03
Speaker 3: years later and then go back to the early trauma protocol,
27:08
Speaker 3: or we might even start with the EMDR and then switch,
27:11
Speaker 3: or we might start with they can shift back and
27:15
Speaker 3: forth if they're getting in the way.
27:22
Speaker 1: Okay, as we kind of wind down here, what is
27:26
Speaker 1: required of the therapist to do this work?
27:30
Speaker 3: Well, what I would like to say before we run
27:33
Speaker 3: out of time is that the requirements of a book
27:38
Speaker 3: are very challenging because you don't have the opportunity for
27:43
Speaker 3: the direct participation and so therefore, how are you going
27:47
Speaker 3: to allow people to experience when there's no one there
27:52
Speaker 3: to supervise them, no one there to help them feel safe,
27:55
Speaker 3: and no one there to analyze whether they're doing what
27:58
Speaker 3: they're meant to be doing correct. So that was the
28:02
Speaker 3: challenge in writing the book. But the book will be
28:05
Speaker 3: useful for people who have done the training as well
28:09
Speaker 3: as for people who have not, and therefore I feel
28:12
Speaker 3: it's worthwhile to have written.
28:15
Speaker 2: And the training you're talking about is.
28:19
Speaker 3: What well I do a practicum training that can be
28:23
Speaker 3: in person or it can be online. The one that's
28:26
Speaker 3: coming up in October, the first weekend in October October
28:30
Speaker 3: third to fifth is an online training and it will
28:35
Speaker 3: be preceded by a free webinar to give people a
28:39
Speaker 3: taste of what that will be and hopefully sign up
28:43
Speaker 3: to do the training. I've also got a list of
28:46
Speaker 3: people who might be interested in knowing when the book releases,
28:51
Speaker 3: so that I can let them know when I know
28:54
Speaker 3: when that's going to be, and so basically getting the word.
28:59
Speaker 2: Out once again.
29:01
Speaker 1: The book's called Therapist's Guide to Healing Trauma from the
29:04
Speaker 1: Roots Up. Will have those links up to your training,
29:09
Speaker 1: your online training, as well as links to your website
29:14
Speaker 1: here at the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist
29:16
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Rachel, how do people learn more about
29:20
Speaker 1: you and your training and your book?
29:22
Speaker 2: What's the best way?
29:24
Speaker 3: The best way is to go to the website Early
29:26
Speaker 3: Trauma Protocol dot com and it has pages on all
29:31
Speaker 3: these aspects of the work and also links to register
29:35
Speaker 3: for the webinar or and or for the training. The
29:39
Speaker 3: practicum training.
29:41
Speaker 1: Okay, once again, that's you said, Early Early Protocol Early.
29:49
Speaker 3: The name of the website is lowercase Early Trauma Protocol
29:55
Speaker 3: dot com.
29:57
Speaker 1: Okay, come all right, Early Trauma Protocol dot com. All right, Rachel, fascinating,
30:05
Speaker 1: really really fascinating.
30:09
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here. We'll look out
30:10
Speaker 2: for that book, all right. Take care,