Latest / Voices of Otolaryngology / Choosing Your First Job, Finding Success and Building a Career

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Choosing Your First Job, Finding Success and Building a Career · Voices of Otolaryngology

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Welcome to the Voices of Otolaryngology podcast series, where we spotlight
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diverse perspectives and insights within the field of otolaryngology.
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I'm your host, Rahul Shah.
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Let's jump into it.
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Welcome to the Voices of Otolaryngology.
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I'm over the moon today.
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It is always a treat to speak with friends, make new friends.
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But today I have a special guest, Dr. Soham Roy.
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We've known each other probably since probably med school residency.
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And for all of you young physicians section for residents and fellows
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whose relationships
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you made interviewing at the fellowship level, they stay with you for life.
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Doctor Roy, welcome.
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Thank you so much. Rahul.
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It's such a privilege to be here.
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I'm really honored. Thank you.
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Yeah.
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I think in many of the meetings we've sat together,
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even some of those that are off the beaten path.
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American College of Surgeons having coffee with you in the exhibit hall
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when you were doing fire safety research.
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So tell us a little bit about your career trajectory.
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Do you mind so people can get to know you a little bit?
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No, absolutely.
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For those folks who don't know me, my name is Soham, and I'm currently
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the chair of pediatric otolaryngology at Children's Hospital Colorado.
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Very happy to tell you that we currently have the,
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I believe, second largest pediatric
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otolaryngology program in the country by faculty, we’re a really big program.
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My career started, at the, well, really,
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I would say it started at WashU, at Saint Louis, where I went to medical school.
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And that's what really first introduced me to otolaryngology.
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And many folks in the otolaryngology community have a WashU connection.
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I was fortunate enough to do my residency at the University of Miami,
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and then did my fellowship in pediatric otolaryngology under
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Charlie Bluestone at Children's Hospital of Pittsburgh.
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And then I was, taken back to the University of Miami
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as a junior faculty, worked there for a handful of years before
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I was recruited to the University of Texas at Houston, where I, was the division
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chief of pediatric otolaryngology at UT Houston for about 12 years.
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And then I was recruited to be the chair here at Children's Colorado.
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And I've been here for three years now.
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Can you
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remind me, if you listen to these, I think I'm a funny guy.
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A lot of people don't. So you don't have to laugh at my jokes.
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When did you finish your residency or when did you start residency?
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Give me one of those years.
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So I started residency in 1995, finished in 2000. Back
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then, pediatric otolaryngology fellowships with generally a two year program.
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So I finished my training in 2002.
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All at all.
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And that's when I started working as faculty.
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Great.
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So let's just be fully transparent.
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I'm five years, behind you.
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I finished at, 2005 fellowship 2006, I think.
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So it's.
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I cannot believe how much you've accomplished in your career.
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It's pretty cool.
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It is really cool.
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And you've trained trained at wonderful places across the country.
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WashU, Pittsburgh with Doctor Bluestone.
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That. That's probably a that's a cool thing.
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Miami, then Houston, where you are part of the biggest,
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largest program of Peds Oto.
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And I visited Colorado with yourself, Doctor Agarwal.
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And I was blown away, Dr.
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Roy, by what you built there.
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The residents and fellows and young physicians asked for you,
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believe it or not, they said, we want to hear from Doctor Roy.
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He mentors us,
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he guides us, and they say, you have a lot of great information
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to share with the masses.
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The platform is yours sir.
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Why are
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you so passionate about mentoring the residents and fellows?
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And then we're going
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to get into some of the advice you give them along various steps. Why?
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Why do you spend your time with them?
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I think there's a lot of things you you can be spending your time on.
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First of all, I just have to say how touched
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and how humbled I and to hear this, I mean, I,
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I think there's no greater honor that I've received than maybe
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what you just said, that somebody actually wanted to hear from me about this.
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And, I have goosebumps right now, so I've just.
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So it doesn't happen at home.
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Doctor Roy, let let your daughter know that somebody actually cares
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what the father says!
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Yeah, believe me,
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she she, she hasn't figured that part out yet, but but, you know, it is
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it is incredibly humbling to to think that somebody would feel that way about me.
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You know, it's interesting.
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I had a conversation
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not too long ago with, Troy Woodard, our Academy president, and.
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But when Troy called me that, we were talking.
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I said, Troy, I'm a nobody. Why?
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Why are you calling me? I don't know, buddy. Like, this is.
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It's just it's so humbling and awe inspiring every time.
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And it's one of the things that I think I am just so incredibly humbled by
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is the Academy
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and what it's meant to all of us
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over the years and the home that it's provided for us professionally.
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So to get to your question, why am I so passionate about mentorship?
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It really stems from my own experience.
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I would not be where I am today if it weren't for the mentors
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who invested in me.
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And and I know that this isn't something we normally do, but I'm going to name
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check a few folks starting back at WashU with my former chief resident,
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Doctor Jyung, Bob Jyung, who's now an otologist in the northeast, and Dr.
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Jyung was a chief resident, I was a junior med student,
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or perhaps I was a fourth year med student, and I didn't know what
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I was doing.
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And, Doctor Jyung really took me in and mentored me,
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through the match process and mentored all of us in my class.
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We had a big group
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that went into otolaryngology, I think it was like nine of us from WashU.
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I also encountered Ellis Arjmand, who's been a mentor of mine
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since that day when I was a junior med student.
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Audie Woolley I was inspired by some of these folks
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and then built these relationships with folks like Doctor Lusk,
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who was my faculty mentor when I was at med school.
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They are the reason I'm here today.
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And then that extended well into my time as a resident, certainly
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well into my time as a fellow of that, even into my faculty career.
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The only reason that I get to enjoy, the career that I have now
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is because
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people have invested their time in me and you can say thank you a million times,
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but I don't think that's as impactful as doing it for somebody else in their name
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Like when I talk to my med students and they say,
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why do you spend all this time with us in the evenings and on the weekends?
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I tell them, because Doctor Jyung, Doctor Arjmand,
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they did this for me, and I want you to know their names.
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And one day I hope you'll tell your trainees and your mentees
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about my name, because it is the legacy that I will leave behind.
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You know, I hate to say it, but a lot of patients,
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especially in the pediatric otolaryngology field,
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they don't remember who took their kid’s tonsils out,
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because a lot of times it's not a real long term relationship.
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Some of them are.
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But my legacy will remain with the folks
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that I had an opportunity to engage with in our field.
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So let's, I'm going to tell a story, but I want you to start thinking,
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because as everybody knows, I never prep for these.
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I didn't prep Doctor Roy.
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I just said, come join me. And he looked dapper.
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And I have a fleece because it's freezing in Washington DC.
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It's one of the coldest days of the year.
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February 2026.
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Doctor Roy, think about this.
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I want today I want you to give it some top ten, top three, top five, top
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seven things that residents and fellows
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should be thinking about when they look for the next job.
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And you're fortunate that you've moved around
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because you've had those thoughts.
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So I want to anchor that. Let me tell you a quick story.
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Since you were name checking, I'm gonna name check Doctor Greg
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Grillone, he's the chair at Boston University.
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Wonderful. Wonderful program.
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I did my med school an undergrad at Boston University.
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I was a, med student
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or even an undergrad in the cafeteria line at University Hospital.
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And right behind me was a Doctor Grillone, didn't,
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you know his name, just set it on his thing.
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Head and Neck surgery, something like that.
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Actually paid for my lunch.
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Back then, lunches might have been $3, Soham, you remember that?
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But then he just talked to me and he said, who are you?
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He didn't know me from anything.
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I said, sir I'm a med student. I'm doing anatomy.
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And that that's where a love of otolaryngology began.
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Somebody important. Just taking time with you.
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So is that amazing? You're forever grateful.
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Soham, let's get into it.
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But you you want to make a comment on that?
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Then let's get into it.
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Go ahead.
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No, I just you know, it's interesting what I was saying about name checking.
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One of the things I hate about when I mention
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names is I worry about all the names I didn't mention. Right.
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Because there are so many people who have been in,
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you know, as they often say, it takes a village to raise a child.
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Well, it takes a village of otolaryngologists otolaryngologist.
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to raise an otolaryngologist.
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Every resident has that village with the faculty and their co residents.
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What do you tell residents fellows when they come to you and say,
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you know, I'm looking at my first job, let's focus on job.
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Not not fellowships or further.
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I'm looking for my first job.
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So, you know, it's a great question, Rahul, and there's
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certainly for our audience everybody's going to go through this right?
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Whether you become academic faculty,
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whether you're looking for fellowships, whether you're looking for a job position,
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you are trying to figure out what,
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what's the right move for you.
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And one of the the valuable lessons that I've learned over the years
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is that there is literally only one person who could define success for you,
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and that is you.
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Success for one person means something
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very different than it does for another.
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And one of the mistakes that I see people make is I see them often feeling
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like, well, if I don't do X, Y, or Z, I'm going to disappoint my mentors.
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The truth of the matter is, you are the only person who will define
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your success.
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And for those of us who are in the, these opportune roles
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to be able to mentor people, our job is to empower you to that success.
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Whatever success means to you, it is not to tell you.
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Here's what you should do to be successful.
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Your job is to define success.
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Our job is to help you get to whatever that point is.
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I mean, I'll give you a concrete example.
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I have some, faculty junior faculty members who come to me
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and they say, I want to be a chair one day.
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Okay, how can I best coach you into that?
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What are the skills I can teach you?
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And the things I think you need to know to be able to apply for positions
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like that?
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I have other faculty members who say, you know, I've got young kids at home.
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I want to take great care of patients.
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I want to go home and spend time with my kids.
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Okay. That's your definition of success.
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How can I get you there?
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And the same things for the residents.
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You may have somebody in your ear saying you have to go do a fellowship
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and joint academic faculty.
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But the truth of the matter is we need community otolaryngologists who are doing
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general otolaryngology to provide care to the people that we serve.
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And if that is your success, we have to get you there.
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But as a resident or a fellow, you have to define your success.
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Awesome point. I actually love that.
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And I love what you also said your mentors never pass judgment.
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You and I didn't know it, but you chose pediatric otolaryngology.
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You might have some terrific head and neck rhinologists.
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Nobody pass judgment.
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You go into private practice, nobody passes judgment.
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So really, really well said.
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So one thing is you said you define success for yourself.
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Okay.
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So the resident fellow saying I want to do private practice here
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in Charleston, South Carolina, with Gene Brown, president of the Academy.
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They define that success.
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So first thing, they define their success.
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What else should they be thinking?
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Well, I mean, certainly the first thing you have to consider are
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what are the things that are going to make you happy?
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What's going to bring you fulfillment?
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And that is in both the professional arena and in the personal arena.
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Many people, especially when they're looking at their first positions,
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what they're really thinking about is, is this where I want to be,
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and is this going to be the right kind of practice environment for me?
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And I think that you have to keep all those in mind.
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The other thing that I really have to counsel people, and if I could leave
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everybody listening to this with one singular piece of advice,
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your first job is not your last job necessarily.
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It might be, but it doesn't have to be.
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You and I have both held multiple roles in leadership and academia.
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You've had many hospital based roles.
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I had a number of leadership roles in my organization.
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Your first position does not have to be your last position.
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And people have to also remember that there is no perfect job.
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There is no perfect life.
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There is no perfect place.
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Don't go into finding your first position
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saying, I've got to find the perfect job that's going to fit forever.
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Well, guess what?
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The job's going to change and you're going to change over time.
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What you need to find is the right position for you for right now.
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And then over time, as you change and the position changes
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and the opportunities change, you will reconsider.
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But don't put this pressure.
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I see so many trainees
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who put this incredible pressure on their self saying,
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well, what if it turns out to not be the right fit for me?
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Okay, this is all the way.
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I agree you will have other opportunities.
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Don't put that pressure on yourself to say
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this has to be a perfect job for the rest of eternity.
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That would be the one thing I would encourage people to take away.
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From from this.
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Very astute pearl.
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There was a saying you and I remember from the early 2000.
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I haven't heard it since, so I don't know the veracity of it.
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50% of folks
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leave their first job in three years, and that was generally for surgeons.
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50% of surgeons leave their first job within two years.
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But think about it.
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I can probably rattle off a bunch of friends
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that left their first job within the first two years, so I like what you said.
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So you define success for yourself.
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I'm taking note here because we're going to turn this into Doctor Roy's list later.
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What makes you happy?
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And you know why you didn't mention salary.
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You didn't mention practice setting.
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You said yes, you consider those, but you said define what makes you happy.
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Okay, so I think I have success.
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I'm kind of thinking what makes me happy.
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So now do I think about partnership track?
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Do I think about salary?
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Do I think about work RVUs? Do I what now?
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Now guide me and I'm being facetious because maybe I'm jumping the gun. So.
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All right.
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So now how do we continue the discussion for our folks
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that are going out there getting their first job?
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You and I have been friends for so long, and we know
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just how much admiration of respect I have for you.
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I have to be careful how I phrase this.
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And if I say anything that's offbeat or you disagree with,
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you know, I would encourage us to have a dialog to speak up
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the practice landscape is changing.
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As we all know.
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We see large groups being, bought up by private equity.
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And private equity tends to benefit
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some groups very significantly and some members of some groups.
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But there are other people who get hurt in that process,
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in the acquisition process.
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And when a practice gets turned over to private equity.
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Hospital based employment: that model is great for some people
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for some time,
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but then it's not so great for other people at different time periods.
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So as you evaluate all these things, I think it is very important
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for a couple things.
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One is to understand the practice model that you're coming into.
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I mean, speaking honestly, as an academic person
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employed by a medical school, I probably have it the easiest, right?
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When you get handed a contract, it's a page or two.
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The basically says you, agree to abide by all the university
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rules and stipulations.
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Here's your salary.
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Here are a few hyperlinks of case you want to review the processes and manuals.
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And that's it.
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When you get into private groups that are either privately held practices,
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PEL practices, hospital employment, you really do have to look at the details
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because all of the things you mention: salary, RVU,
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work expectations, call coverage, all of these things are unique
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to each of those practice environments, and you cannot gloss over it
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with a one size fits all approach.
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Now, I will tell you also that anybody who is taking on an employed
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model like that,
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look, physicians are exceptionally smart people
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and people who go into otolaryngology, I think, we could all agree
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are probably the best of the best in many many ways.
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There's a reason we draw top tier talent to this field.
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We could have easily applied those same
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abilities and skills in law school or business school, but we didn’t.
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This is the route we chose to go to help patients.
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Don't pretend for a second that you are nearly as versed
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in these legal nuances as an attorney who specializes
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in physician practice and physician contracts, you are not as good
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as a financial person in understanding financial nuances of these things.
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Have faith in people who have expertise in these areas.
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Don't sign a contract till you've had a lawyer go over it with a fine tooth comb.
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Talk you through every detail because they will identify things
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you would not have known or wouldn't have thought to recognize.
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So you have to rely on the expertise of people who have devoted their lives
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and are probably as good at their role as you are at yours
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to ensure your own safety.
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In the long run.
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So really, really like that.
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Let me just comment on a few things.
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Part of my job is traveling the country,
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and I've been blown away by some practices.
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You know, you mentioned the private equity a Neil Hopkins, Parallel ENT
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and Jonathan Cooper, Richard Bavaro, leaders of elevate unbelievable.
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Net promoter score of 90.
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You walk in there. It's gorgeous.
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There's full price transparency in academic centers such as yours.
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But what you're saying is you see one practice, you see one practice practice.
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I'm on team otolaryngology.
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I want every otolaryngologist to win. You.
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Then I think what you're getting at is a third point here
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is contracting and seeking out expertise.
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So I think that's where you're going a little bit.
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So let me ask the question. I'm a trainee.
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I'm coming out.
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I can't afford a lawyer for $1500, $2000-$3000.
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But I think what you're saying is you can't afford not to get.
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So you do give that advice.
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You say engage an expert, is that right?
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Literally word for word.
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What I would say is if a trainee and they have said to me, I'm not sure I
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can afford a lawyer, I will tell them this is an investment in your future.
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For those of you
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who paid tuition for medical school, that was a big investment in your future.
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This is a potentially, usually a pretty small investment,
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but could save you immense amounts of grief.
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And again, the landscape is changing.
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You know, as we know, elections have consequences.
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One of the things that's changed is, restrictive covenants
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and their enforceability.
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Traditionally, when you signed a restrictive covenant,
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you pretty much guaranteed that you couldn't leave
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that practice of practice within a certain radius.
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Now, restrictive covenants are kind of going by the wayside.
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Even if they're written in, they may not be enforceable.
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Lots of these things are constantly changing.
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And as surgeons, we are so,
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invested
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in surgical care, in patient care that we don't have the time to keep up
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with the nuances of an ever changing landscape
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in the non-clinical care aspect of health care delivery.
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So we have to rely on people who have that expertise,
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who understand legislative advances, who understand financial management,
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who understand legal contracting and things of that nature.
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Don't hesitate to have a team of people working for you,
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because, again, they're small investments that have very big payoffs in the future.
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I really like that.
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I had a 51 mile non-compete, 51 mile, right?
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So and I seen some non-compete of 2.55 miles.
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Some of them are just bizarro, you know, they'll block you out of certain areas.
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It's almost like gerrymandering.
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So I think that's a that's a great point, Doctor Roy.
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So you define success for yourself.
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You are the only one that knows what makes you happy.
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So find that practice setting
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and then retain experts let you call that experts, right.
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Get an expert team.
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So we talked about a contract.
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Who else should be on your expert team?
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You want to have a lawyer help you?
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You don't want to put them on retainer, repay them that much. But.
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But we need a lawyer. Dr. Roy.
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What else? Who else do you consider?
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So a couple of things.
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So, first of all, the lawyers
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who do this sort of physician contracting typically don't expect a big retainer.
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They're paying.
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You're typically just paying a flat fee for their review and commentary
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or an hourly fee, but it's not a ton of work for them.
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They do this all the time.
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Same concept as, Well, I have a I have a guy who I've grown real close
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to his, the handyman at my house, and he does a few minor
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things around the house, and he makes it look so easy.
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I'm like, I should probably learn to do that.
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And he sat down with me.
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His name's Mark. He's is the.
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He's a wonderful guy. He's a Russian guy.
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And he sat down with me and he said, you know, you've devoted your entire life
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to helping children and to curing them and fixing them when you can't.
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It's like, why would you want to devote all this energy
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to learn how to fix this minor thing?
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I already know how to do that.
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I can do it three times as fast and save you the grief for very little money.
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And he's absolutely right, and I think that is a very applicable metaphor.
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Don't try to turn yourself into an expert on these issues.
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Yes, you want to be financially versed.
20:34
You want to understand the contracting nuances,
20:37
but don't feel that you have to develop that expertise.
20:39
You need the expertise of somebody who already knows how to do it.
20:41
Could probably do it faster than you would do it better
20:43
that you, as far as the specifics around the team
20:47
goes, that really depends on your circumstances.
20:50
Now, my life was so simple for all, and I don't.
20:53
I don't recall if you were married by the time you finished training,
20:56
but when I finished training, I had no partner, no spouse, no child.
21:02
I didn't have a dog.
21:03
I had me and I had a zero balance with the world.
21:07
And I remember at my graduation, turning to one of my friends and saying,
21:11
if ever I'm going to get hit by a bus, today is the day to do it.
21:14
Because I had no debt and I had no assets.
21:17
I’m even. I'm square with the world.
21:18
I was 31 years old. We're square.
21:21
Now I have multiple attorneys that I reach out to on occasion One of
21:27
whom handles, you know, employment stuff,
21:29
one of whom handles, you know, stuff related to my trust in estate.
21:33
I have a financial advisor.
21:35
I've got an accountant.
21:37
I have a team of people who have expertise that work together to help it.
21:40
Now, again, I'm not some big shot billionaire who has to pay
21:43
all these people tons of money. Not at all.
21:46
My accountant I engage with roughly once a year, starting in February
21:49
through the end of March, when he does my taxes.
21:52
My financial advisor, I talk to once a month just to catch up.
21:55
Then once every six months, we do a quick financial reiew.
21:58
You know, you're not paying these people a fortune to do this.
22:01
You're just kind of keeping those relationships open,
22:03
to be able to help you understand as you move forward.
22:06
Because your circumstances change.
22:08
For many of our trainees, they may come out of training
22:10
with, children or a family of some of our, trainees
22:13
when they become, when they go out to practice,
22:16
will have families or, partners or things like that.
22:19
So your needs will change over time and your kind of team of advisors
22:24
will change, during that time as well.
22:27
Sort of miss sometimes the days where I was just me at a zero balance
22:31
with the world, but, you know, your circumstances change
22:33
and you adapt to change with those circumstances.
22:37
Yeah.
22:38
Very, very well said.
22:39
And you and I have trainees and fellows coming out with three, 4
22:42
or 5, $600,000 of debt because compounding,
22:47
as Einstein said, is one of the most powerful equations.
22:50
But compounding the other way, loan and debt compounding can crush you.
22:54
What advice do you give to those folks saying: “You know what?
22:58
I'm drowning.
22:59
I've got a family, I have dependents, I take care of elder care,
23:03
and now I've got 500,000, which is not a crazy number.” Doctor Roy,
23:07
we see that with our trainees.
23:09
No, I think the average debt now is like something like $400,000, right?
23:12
Coming out is one of my, former, residents
23:15
who's now in practice in the Baltimore area and Maryland.
23:19
I remember him telling me we're carrying around.
23:21
He and his wife were carrying around an entire mortgage up in their heads
23:24
because of the amount of student debt.
23:28
So, you know, to answer your question, what do we tell them?
23:32
Well, the first thing is, don't panic, okay?
23:35
I know we talk a lot about reimbursements
23:37
and about incomes, but the truth of the matter is
23:39
we are still very much in the upper middle class bracket of income,
23:44
for otolaryngologists.
23:45
And some otolaryngologists are in the very highest, bracket, but
23:48
at least most of us are going to be in the upper middle class brackets.
23:51
The important thing is to understand the math around this.
23:54
Now I give a course on financial literacy
23:57
that I like to talk my, residents through on some basics.
24:01
What's a 401K?
24:02
What's a 401A? What's a 403B? What is a 457?
24:06
If you have the opportunity, what are rules around Roth IRAs?
24:08
What's the cream in the coffee rule.
24:10
You know, things like this
24:11
a basic understand these things so that you understand it.
24:14
You know compounding as we mentioned, the eighth wonder of the world.
24:17
It's very important to recognize that if you pay yourself first,
24:21
that compounding will often exceed any negative compounding of debt interest.
24:27
So there's good debt and bad debt, right.
24:30
And, you know, I don't know how much you want to get into the specifics.
24:32
I'm not a financial advisor.
24:34
I am certainly I would be a fiduciary in the sense that I want other people to do.
24:37
Well, but I'm not a financial advisor.
24:39
But, you know, these concepts of low interest debt is actually in your favor.
24:44
If you have a low mortgage rate, that's good debt.
24:47
Credit card debt tends to be very high.
24:49
That is bad debt.
24:51
Student loan debt tends to be very good because it's an investment in your future,
24:54
but it's also very low interest.
24:56
So if you're paying 2% on your student loans or 2.5% on your student loans,
25:00
but a market return is giving you 13%,
25:03
or like some accounts did last year, 18%,
25:06
you are far better off paying yourself first.
25:10
And that's certainly a good piece of advice.
25:12
Pay yourself first before you start paying off anything else.
25:15
Unless it's bad that so again, I don't know how much of that
25:19
specifics you want to get into because I'm not a financial advisor.
25:22
But, you know, you should have a financial advisor
25:25
who explains these things to you at a level that you're comfortable with.
25:29
Some people have very strong financial literacy. Others don't.
25:31
I was clueless, I mean, I grew up at poverty level.
25:34
Yeah, my my mother, my father passed away when I was two.
25:37
He had the life insurance.
25:39
My mom was a widow who raised two kids in a forgein country.
25:41
I grew up in absolute poverty, and this is all stuff
25:45
I learned along the way through listening, reading and speaking to people.
25:49
And so anybody, any of our trainees who's out there was like, look,
25:52
I've got a family. I'm struggling.
25:53
I don't understand anything about money.
25:55
Don't worry.
25:55
A whole group of people out there who can help you,
25:58
we can point you to resources to help you understand those things too.
26:02
I love that.
26:03
Let's end up with maybe a final pearl if you have one.
26:06
So let me let me, try to summarize because it's important for our,
26:10
our future, partners and colleagues.
26:13
So you define success for yourself.
26:15
You know what makes you happy?
26:17
Surround yourself with the team of experts from attorneys finance.
26:22
There are people out here who commit their life to that.
26:25
Make sure they do that.
26:27
What is what is the final piece or pearl that you give, to your trainees
26:31
or those seeking advice for that first job?
26:34
So it's interesting the way you phrased the question.
26:36
So when it comes to the first job,
26:38
what I would always remind trainees is bet on yourself, right?
26:42
One of the one of the great subtleties in otolaryngology,
26:47
they're, what, 109 training programs or I forget, with the addition of D.O.
26:52
programs, it's probably a few more 120- something.
26:54
But that roughly 100 plus, residency training programs in otolaryngology.
27:00
There is not a bad one among those.
27:02
And I tell my students this all the time, there is no bad training program.
27:07
Wherever you mash, you are going to be exceptionally well trained.
27:09
I agree.
27:10
Yeah, I mean, we don't have a weak link
27:12
in that entire ACGME list of otolaryngology programs.
27:16
So exhale.
27:18
Believe in yourself. Bet on your own skills.
27:22
Do that when you're looking for a job.
27:23
Believe in yourself.
27:25
And if you do that, it will pay off.
27:29
The non
27:31
job related advice I give to people who are going out
27:35
is that in the long run, you will not be remembered for the surgeries you did.
27:41
I hate to say it, but yes, a few individual patients will remember you. It.
27:45
But that's not where your legacy will lie.
27:48
Your legacy will lie in the people you engaged with every day.
27:52
And that's family members, that staff members, that is your family,
27:55
your partners, your family, your children, whatever.
28:00
The way that you will be remembered in the long
28:03
run is the legacy that you left with all of those folks.
28:07
And certainly as I've gotten older and I don't know
28:09
if you take your midlife crisis yet,
28:10
but I just kind of keep wondering when my clock is going to expire.
28:14
I just I hope that people will come to my funeral and say he invested in me.
28:20
He believed in me, and he helped me believe in myself.
28:22
That to me will be the best legacy I can leave.
28:25
I appreciate that, I appreciate that I'm going to summarize
28:29
then I'm going to ask you for a couple of mistakes, maybe that
28:33
you've made, to be introspective because people only see your success.
28:38
And we'll keep them job related.
28:42
You know, just or you've seen your peers make you don't
28:45
you don't have to be that introspective, but some, powerful mistakes.
28:49
So just to summarize this list,
28:51
what do you all need to think about as you get out there?
28:55
You define your success. You know what makes you happy?
28:57
Surround yourself with experts, bet on yourself, and,
29:01
remember that it's not the surgeries that define you, the relationships.
29:04
And it reminds me of Doctor Netterville's “Call Me”
29:07
lecture at the opening ceremony, which I'm sure you saw, right?
29:11
Unbelievable.
29:12
You got to go back and watch that folks.
29:14
I have that on my phone.
29:15
I listen to it every three to 4 or 5, six months.
29:18
You know, you think about what is patient it great story.
29:21
Then. Yeah.
29:22
Yeah, it was great.
29:23
1 or 2 mistakes obviously.
29:25
You probably learned.
29:27
That's why you came up with this list of five.
29:29
You've learned from your mistakes.
29:30
But somewhere you're like, oh man, I wish I had that again.
29:34
Yeah, great.
29:35
Great question.
29:36
And like I said, I, I'm writing a book called Mistakes I've Made.
29:38
And I feel like I just keep adding more chapters.
29:42
First thing is the world is not a blank canvas, right?
29:45
Biggest mistake I think I've made in my career was walking into a situation
29:49
where I just felt like, oh,
29:50
this was a blank canvas on the which onto which I could paint my masterpiece.
29:54
No, that was foolish.
29:56
What you need to do is when you walk
29:59
into a new situation, is listen more than you speak.
30:03
Learn the players, learn the relationships,
30:07
learn the structure, learn the culture, study all those things
30:11
before you start trying to implement or effect change.
30:16
If you just walk in guns blazing and say, I'm going to make this place what I think
30:19
it should be, you're going to end up hurting yourself in the long run.
30:23
No, that was a big mistake.
30:24
I made it what I should have understood and listened more.
30:28
Certainly.
30:29
You know, for those of you
30:30
who were entertaining new roles or entertaining new positions,
30:33
lots of great material to read before you go out there.
30:37
You know, I love reading business books.
30:40
That's kind of my thing.
30:41
I got my Masters of Management
30:42
because I really love that sort of thing about organizational culture.
30:46
Read a book called The First 90 days.
30:48
It's very, very helpful in understanding what to do and more importantly,
30:52
what not to do in your first three months.
30:54
Because I made the mistake in walking, in thinking
30:56
I could just make things the way I wanted to.
30:58
This was going to be my Mona Lisa.
31:00
No, that was foolish on my behalf. So,
31:06
listen more,
31:08
speak less, understand more before you attempt to make changes,
31:13
before you attempt to make your mark on an organization.
31:16
That was among the biggest mistakes that I’ve made.
31:20
I love that, I love that I'll make a comment
31:23
and then I'll give you the last word.
31:24
And then we'll wrap it up.
31:26
Do you have your trainees or fellows or those entering practices?
31:31
Do you suggest they read the first 90 days?
31:33
I love that book.
31:34
Every time I take a new role, actually, a new role, I read it.
31:37
Not a new job, even a new role.
31:39
Do you pat that on to positions as well,
31:41
or do you keep that on those that have an affinity towards business?
31:45
Well, I think it's useful advice no matter what.
31:47
If you're entering a group
31:48
of four physicians in a private practice that's privately owned,
31:52
reading that book will help you understand how to integrate into that new practice.
31:56
As the junior recruit, as the junior physician, how to integrate
32:00
into that practice, how to integrate with the staff
32:03
and with your new hospitals, wherever you'll be working.
32:05
I think that that particular book, holds quite a bit of value,
32:09
for anybody entering a new position anywhere, in any circumstance.
32:13
Just some some generalized life advice.
32:15
I think I have a copy of my bookshelf over here.
32:17
So I find.
32:18
Can you give it to the author of that and maybe you could find it?
32:21
Could you?
32:22
Do you see the author?
32:22
Let's do this on Amazon real quick because yeah, let's let's try to make sure
32:26
there's a bunch of “First 90 Days.” Michael Watkins is the author.
32:31
And now let me see.
32:33
Do you want I can put the link I don't know.
32:35
Yeah yeah that's it. Nope. That's it.
32:37
That's the one I use: “The First 90 Days.” So
32:40
yeah that's the one I use.
32:42
Perfect.
32:43
Thank you.
32:43
Doctor Roy, any final, comments or remarks?
32:46
Let's keep it focused to, job search, job seeking.
32:50
I know you have
32:51
a general kind of comments, but what would you end the podcast with?
32:55
We'll give you the final word. And thank you very much for joining us.
32:57
And you're going to come back again. I know it for sure.
33:00
Oh, I appreciate that very much.
33:01
Well, obviously, I wrap up by saying thank you for having me.
33:04
I'm I'm humbled and flattered and I'm like, what am I doing here?
33:07
I'm a nobody.
33:08
You know?
33:08
I'm I'm just so honored to to be here
33:12
and flattered that people would ask for, you know what?
33:15
When you're looking for a new job
33:17
or when you're looking for your first position, don't go at it alone, okay?
33:22
Enlist the help of every what you do get.
33:25
That starts with your core.
33:27
And that means your family, your friends, whatever
33:30
your nucleus is, make sure that they are engaged
33:34
every step of the way and then ask for advice.
33:38
Ask advice from your trusted friends, your trusted colleagues,
33:41
your trusted mentors,
33:42
your chairs, your program directors, your people who have been there before.
33:46
Get the advice.
33:47
The more people you talk to.
33:49
Yes, some of that advice would be conflicting, but the better off
33:52
you're going to have a sense that, okay, I'm doing things the right way here.
33:55
So really just ask, ask questions.
33:58
What should I be thinking about? What am I missing?
34:01
What do you think about this?
34:02
What are the pitfalls I should look out for?
34:04
The more people you asked, the better suited you're going to be, I believe.
34:08
Wonderful Dr.
34:09
Roy, thank you so much.
34:11
Children's Colorado. It's been our honor.
34:13
Thank you very much. It's really been my honor, Dr. Shah.
34:16
Thank you so much.
34:18
We hope today's episode sparked some fresh ideas.
34:21
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34:24
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34:26
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34:28
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34:29
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34:30
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34:34
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