Latest / The You Project / #1772 What Water Should You Drink? - Dr. Bill Sullivan

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#1772 What Water Should You Drink? - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment of the show.
0:03
Speaker 1: I hope you bloody terrific, Tiffany, and Cook is not
0:05
Speaker 1: here selfishly, she's having fun doing something else. But you'll
0:11
Speaker 1: listen to this because she's going to edit it. So
0:13
Speaker 1: edit a way, tiff And I hope you will. But
0:16
Speaker 1: Doctor Bill, thank god, it could really be a Doctor
0:19
Speaker 1: Bill episode without Doctor Bill, although these days that is
0:22
Speaker 1: becoming increasingly possible. But as best I can tell, the
0:27
Speaker 1: real version is here, mate, how are you? I'm great?
0:31
Speaker 2: And yes I can verify this as the real version
0:34
Speaker 2: of Doctor Bill.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I tell you what, how would you know if
0:39
Speaker 1: it wasn't? Though I know, I know it's it's becoming scary.
0:44
Speaker 1: We have a guy on a once a fortnight called Patrick,
0:47
Speaker 1: and he's like our tech guy. We just talk about.
0:50
Speaker 1: It's very light, it's fun, and it's all things tech,
0:54
Speaker 1: of which I am. You know, I'm a dinosaur, so
0:56
Speaker 1: I don't really I'm probably better than the average sixty
0:59
Speaker 1: year old, but I'm certainly you know, I'm certainly very
1:03
Speaker 1: low on the totem pole in terms of knowledge and
1:06
Speaker 1: understanding of all things tech. But one episode we did,
1:11
Speaker 1: we just started just like this bill, And he said,
1:13
Speaker 1: how come I never get to host the show? How
1:17
Speaker 1: come I never get to And he used to work
1:19
Speaker 1: in radio, so he's very good in that. I said,
1:22
Speaker 1: and this is live. I said, oh, would you like
1:24
Speaker 1: to host today? I didn't know any of this was coming.
1:28
Speaker 1: So he opened the show and he asked me a
1:32
Speaker 1: question without letting me answer. He played an answer that
1:35
Speaker 1: he'd recorded using my voice, right looks yeah, yeah, so
1:41
Speaker 1: he deep faked my voice. Now if you if we
1:45
Speaker 1: didn't tell you, you wouldn't know. So he did about
1:48
Speaker 1: the first four minutes of the show on his own,
1:53
Speaker 1: just asking these questions and then answering the and the
1:57
Speaker 1: most ridiculous and inappropriate answers that made me look terrible.
2:01
Speaker 1: Of course he did, but it was using it was
2:04
Speaker 1: literally my voice, so you could not even me listening
2:09
Speaker 1: to me, and I listen to a fair bit of me.
2:11
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, that is apart from the fact that
2:13
Speaker 1: maybe the cadence or the timing was slightly different. But
2:18
Speaker 1: if somebody didn't tell you, you would just think that
2:21
Speaker 1: was me just answering his questions inappropriately, because obviously he
2:24
Speaker 1: tried to throw me under the bus and make me
2:25
Speaker 1: look bad. But and that was probably six months ago.
2:29
Speaker 1: Way it's way better now. Yeah. Yeah, I actually have
2:33
Speaker 1: to write. I had to write in the overview of
2:35
Speaker 1: the notes, like I needed to explain to people the
2:37
Speaker 1: first few minutes are not real. It's not me. I know,
2:41
Speaker 1: it sounds like me. It's actually AI. Yeah, it's it's pretty.
2:45
Speaker 1: It's like it's getting close to you know, indistinguishable, you
2:51
Speaker 1: know video as well.
2:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really worrisome because in the wrong hands, you
2:57
Speaker 2: can make or break somebody's life. With those sorts of stories,
3:01
Speaker 2: you know, one, it's going to become even more difficult
3:05
Speaker 2: for people to sort out fact from fiction.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, one of the scams that they run,
3:11
Speaker 1: I'm sure it runs in the States, but it happens
3:13
Speaker 1: in Australia quite a bit, and it's been on the
3:15
Speaker 1: news where they've warned about this. But one of the
3:17
Speaker 1: scams is kids, Like people get a hold of their
3:23
Speaker 1: kid's voices, like eight nine twenty year olds who are traveling,
3:27
Speaker 1: who ring their parents and say, Mum, Dad, I'm stuck.
3:31
Speaker 1: I need you to send me two thousand dollars or
3:34
Speaker 1: and it's their voice and it's they're calling their parents.
3:38
Speaker 1: I can't talk like I'm in trouble. You have to
3:42
Speaker 1: please send me this. I'll call and explain later. But
3:45
Speaker 1: I just need you to put this money in this account.
3:48
Speaker 1: And it is their child's voice, and they are traveling,
3:53
Speaker 1: and so then you get this distressed, emotional parent who
3:56
Speaker 1: just wants to look after their kid, so they just
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Speaker 1: put this money in account. Yeah, that's right. What they've
4:03
Speaker 1: encouraged kids to do and parents to do is to
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Speaker 1: have like a code word, and if they don't hear
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Speaker 1: that word, if that word isn't used or whatever, it
4:12
Speaker 1: is that kind of safety net, that verbal safety net
4:16
Speaker 1: where people know there's a code word and if they
4:19
Speaker 1: don't hear the code words. So yeah, but it's getting
4:23
Speaker 1: into scary territory, doc.
4:25
Speaker 2: And it certainly is. That code word idea is a
4:28
Speaker 2: good one. I wasn't aware of this. Maybe that is
4:32
Speaker 2: a problem in the States too. I imagine it will
4:34
Speaker 2: be a global phenomenon shortly, because wherever a new technology
4:39
Speaker 2: seeps in, there's always going to be a cadre of
4:42
Speaker 2: nefarious people who take advantage of it.
4:44
Speaker 1: In the worst wheeze, Yeah, definitely nefarius. We don't hear
4:48
Speaker 1: that word enough, all right, so you wrote or you
4:51
Speaker 1: were involved in a couple of articles that got quite
4:55
Speaker 1: a bit of airtime and attention recently. So we're going
4:59
Speaker 1: to talk about that, which I'm excited because a totally
5:01
Speaker 1: different topic for us. But one of them was about
5:03
Speaker 1: fluoride in drinking water, and one of them was about
5:05
Speaker 1: raw water or drinking raw water. So if you're okay,
5:09
Speaker 1: we're going to start with the fluoride one. So the
5:12
Speaker 1: title of the fluoride article was, yes, fluoride in your
5:16
Speaker 1: drinking water is a good thing. And there's been I'll
5:19
Speaker 1: get out of your way in a moment, but there's
5:20
Speaker 1: been a bit of conjecture and debate about this, and
5:24
Speaker 1: I think RFK Robert Kennedy Junior, has been an advocate
5:28
Speaker 1: for getting rid of fluoride, and he's now got a
5:32
Speaker 1: new position in By the way, there's something big happening
5:35
Speaker 1: tomorrow in your neck of the woods. But we'll talk
5:37
Speaker 1: about that maybe later. But so there are quite a
5:40
Speaker 1: few people who are saying, obviously it's not the moment
5:44
Speaker 1: the majority, it's a minority, but that fluoride in the
5:47
Speaker 1: water could be a bad thing. So tell us, tell
5:51
Speaker 1: us what we need to.
5:52
Speaker 2: Know, right, So I did not expect twenty twenty five
5:57
Speaker 2: to be the year of water for me, so I
6:01
Speaker 2: had a couple of reporters contact me recently. Most of
6:06
Speaker 2: this is driven by the whole RFK Junior phenomenon, which
6:10
Speaker 2: is in my mind, just absolutely insane. But he is
6:16
Speaker 2: a proponent of a lot of very controversial and dangerous
6:24
Speaker 2: health items, and like you said, one of the things
6:27
Speaker 2: he's been pushing is the removal of this tiny amount
6:31
Speaker 2: of fluoride that we add to tap water just about
6:36
Speaker 2: everywhere in the United States. Many other countries do the
6:39
Speaker 2: same thing, because almost one hundred years ago, it was
6:43
Speaker 2: discovered that areas where there was naturally more fluoride in
6:49
Speaker 2: the water naturally okay, there were fewer cavities and dental problems.
6:54
Speaker 2: So a correlation was made, and then we had literally
6:58
Speaker 2: one hundred years of stuff buddies that link fluoride to
7:03
Speaker 2: better oral health Okay, fewer cavities, less gum disease, and
7:08
Speaker 2: so on. So it was decided about seventy five years
7:12
Speaker 2: ago that the United States would add fluoride into the
7:17
Speaker 2: tap water in order to help people mitigate and preemptively
7:22
Speaker 2: strike you dental problems. Fluoride works in two ways.
7:27
Speaker 1: It is a.
7:28
Speaker 2: Part, it's a natural part of the enamel of the teeth,
7:33
Speaker 2: and without it, the enamel is very weakened, so you
7:36
Speaker 2: need fluoride for good enamel. The other thing it does
7:40
Speaker 2: is it's an antimicrobial agent, which means it'll kill bacteria.
7:44
Speaker 2: Bacteria like to accumulate on our teeth. They formed this biofilm,
7:48
Speaker 2: They release acids and that's what starts drilling, drilling the
7:52
Speaker 2: holes and teeth, so it kills those bacteria as well.
7:56
Speaker 2: So you got this nice one two punch that fluoride
8:00
Speaker 2: can deliver that study show substantially improve dental health time
8:05
Speaker 2: and time again. And the most convincing part of this
8:09
Speaker 2: craig is that, you know, it's been controversial ever since
8:13
Speaker 2: it was introduced because there was a proponent of people
8:17
Speaker 2: saying that this is not natural, which is bogus. It
8:19
Speaker 2: is natural. Fluoride is natural out in the environment. Of course,
8:24
Speaker 2: you can ingest too much of it. You can ingest
8:26
Speaker 2: too much.
8:27
Speaker 1: Of anything, okay.
8:29
Speaker 2: You can ingest too much water alone, and if you
8:32
Speaker 2: do so too quickly, water will kill you.
8:35
Speaker 1: Okay.
8:36
Speaker 2: So it's all about the dose, and the dose that
8:39
Speaker 2: the EPA has set for the United States is far
8:42
Speaker 2: below any toxicity level that's been associated with the many
8:47
Speaker 2: studies that have been done. So for someone to cling
8:54
Speaker 2: to some very weird studies or crazy ideas that fluoride
8:59
Speaker 2: is still after all this time, presenting some kind of
9:02
Speaker 2: health danger, to me, that's an extraordinary claim at this point,
9:06
Speaker 2: and you better have a bountiful mountain of evidence to
9:10
Speaker 2: back up your claims that this is harmful in some way.
9:14
Speaker 2: And I'm not talking about a mouse study where you
9:18
Speaker 2: gave it, you know, ridiculous levels of fluoride over a
9:22
Speaker 2: short period of time and then say it causes cancer. Well,
9:26
Speaker 2: of course, but that you can't. That's not congruent to
9:29
Speaker 2: what we put into the tap water. So all the
9:33
Speaker 2: studies that RFK Junior and the anti fluoride people like
9:36
Speaker 2: to cite have serious problems like that, and they're not
9:39
Speaker 2: really equivalent to what we're what the EPA is doing
9:42
Speaker 2: with our tap water.
9:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's this is a pot of science, and you'll
9:49
Speaker 1: way more qualified and you know, knowledgeable in this spice.
9:58
Speaker 1: But you know, for me, it's just interesting. I guess
10:00
Speaker 1: I'm somewhere between the average punter who has never done
10:04
Speaker 1: any research in an academic or an organized research capacity,
10:09
Speaker 1: and I'm somewhere in the middle between them and you.
10:13
Speaker 1: And for me, it's just as I've at a very
10:15
Speaker 1: elderly age, dived into doing a PhD and having done
10:19
Speaker 1: an undergraduate degree decade literally decades ago, and then starting
10:23
Speaker 1: this research journey and then reading you know that I
10:27
Speaker 1: needed to for my own research. I needed to get
10:30
Speaker 1: all the background and as you would understand, read way
10:33
Speaker 1: too many papers and try to understand and work through
10:36
Speaker 1: what's relevant and what's valid and the methodology and you
10:40
Speaker 1: know how how flawed that model or that design or
10:45
Speaker 1: that study might be, and you know the risk of
10:48
Speaker 1: bias of all of that. I just did a risk
10:50
Speaker 1: of bias assessment on one hundred and twelve papers or no,
10:55
Speaker 1: about five hundred studies in one hundred and twelve papers.
10:57
Speaker 1: That was a nightmare. But yeah, it's like people tend
11:01
Speaker 1: to if people have a belief or an idea, or
11:03
Speaker 1: an emotional attachment to a concept, it's like they'll almost
11:07
Speaker 1: find anything that might support that. While not really understanding.
11:13
Speaker 1: Now I'm not advocating one way or the other. Well,
11:15
Speaker 1: I'm probably in the let's keep Florrida in the water
11:18
Speaker 1: camp to be honest, but like trying to understand that
11:22
Speaker 1: not all science is necessarily science. You know, I know
11:26
Speaker 1: that sounds silly, but there's so much I didn't realize how.
11:32
Speaker 1: There's a word in Australia which is dodgy, and basically
11:35
Speaker 1: that just means untrustworthy, unreliable. But there's so much dodgy
11:39
Speaker 1: science there can be.
11:42
Speaker 2: And I look at it from a professional standpoint as preliminary.
11:46
Speaker 2: You know, it's a preliminary study, and the public needs
11:49
Speaker 2: to understand that there are studies that are done that
11:54
Speaker 2: may have a very small sample size. They may be
11:57
Speaker 2: done in cultured cells, they may be done in rodent models,
12:02
Speaker 2: and you've got to be very careful conservative with those
12:06
Speaker 2: interpretations because if you start extrapolating those findings into what
12:10
Speaker 2: might be happening in humans, that's a really reckless thing
12:14
Speaker 2: to do. So you have to compare it to what
12:18
Speaker 2: we like to use in the sciences. Is something called
12:22
Speaker 2: a meta analysis, and you may have heard of these,
12:24
Speaker 2: they're used quite commonly now, which is a study of studies.
12:29
Speaker 2: All right, So you compile a whole bunch of studies
12:32
Speaker 2: that look at the effects of fluoride in water and
12:36
Speaker 2: some of the papers that you might have mentioned or
12:39
Speaker 2: that RFK junior sites will be included in this study.
12:43
Speaker 2: And what happens at the end of the day is
12:45
Speaker 2: they are dwarfed. These negative effects are dwarfed by the
12:49
Speaker 2: mountains of evidence that say fluoride is perfectly safe. In fact,
12:53
Speaker 2: if we remove it from the water, it's going to
12:56
Speaker 2: cause much more harm. So the cost benefit ratio, at
13:00
Speaker 2: least with the current evidence that we have in hand,
13:03
Speaker 2: is that removing fluoride from the water is going to
13:05
Speaker 2: cause a lot more harm than good. Being a scientist,
13:09
Speaker 2: we're always open to new data and new evidence, and
13:12
Speaker 2: if something you know surfaces and is published in a
13:17
Speaker 2: reputable peer review journal that is beyond preliminary, that looks
13:21
Speaker 2: more unequivocal, or has been repeated by multiple independent groups,
13:25
Speaker 2: then we got something to discuss. Until then, we are
13:29
Speaker 2: wasting resources talking about this. It's just it's a no brainer.
13:34
Speaker 2: Seventy five years people are not dying of the types
13:38
Speaker 2: of cancers that he's implicating here. If what he said
13:42
Speaker 2: is true, we would have a massive outbreak of bone
13:46
Speaker 2: cancer in the United States. Given how many millions of
13:50
Speaker 2: people have ingested fluoride over the past seven decades, and
13:55
Speaker 2: we do not see that, Craig. These claims are just
13:58
Speaker 2: simply false.
14:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I'm reading your article. I was interested to
14:06
Speaker 1: see that. Trying to find it. I think it said
14:09
Speaker 1: sixty three percent of the US population. This was a
14:12
Speaker 1: few years ago, maybe twenty twenty. Sixty three percent of
14:16
Speaker 1: the population that access to fluoridated water, but which made
14:23
Speaker 1: a third of the population didn't.
14:25
Speaker 2: That's a lot still, right, That's a lot of people.
14:29
Speaker 2: So what those people by and large are on well
14:33
Speaker 2: water or some other sort of non tapwater. You know,
14:36
Speaker 2: we're talking about rural areas, and those individuals usually receive
14:41
Speaker 2: additional fluoride treatments at their dentist, right, so if they can't,
14:46
Speaker 2: you know, and some of that tap water may be
14:49
Speaker 2: rich in fluoride greg it may have even more than
14:52
Speaker 2: what you've found in tapwater, Okay, because you can go
14:56
Speaker 2: to water sources all around the world and you're going
14:59
Speaker 2: to find varying mineral content, and fluoride is one of
15:03
Speaker 2: those minerals that's going to vary depending on the location.
15:06
Speaker 2: So some of the people who might be on well
15:08
Speaker 2: water may even be ingesting more fluoride than what's in
15:11
Speaker 2: the tapwater because the tap water levels are very low.
15:15
Speaker 1: Okay, so I was going to do these separately, but
15:18
Speaker 1: I actually think we can kind of synthesize these two
15:21
Speaker 1: articles so the other we can maybe jump back and forth.
15:24
Speaker 1: But so the other article that you contributed to quite
15:29
Speaker 1: a lot was it was called no, raw water isn't
15:33
Speaker 1: healthier than tap It could actually make you very sick.
15:36
Speaker 1: And so raw water is when I first heard that,
15:40
Speaker 1: I'm like, what is raw water? And then of course,
15:43
Speaker 1: so raw water is essentially out of a creek, it's rainwater,
15:48
Speaker 1: it's from springs or streams or various untreated sources. But
15:53
Speaker 1: it's just water that hasn't been through any kind of
15:56
Speaker 1: process to be affected by anything.
15:59
Speaker 2: Am I that that's right? And it was news to
16:02
Speaker 2: me too. I heard a raw milk, you know, non
16:04
Speaker 2: pasteurized milk, but raw water was a new one for me,
16:09
Speaker 2: and it took me by surprise that people were even
16:11
Speaker 2: considering doing this.
16:15
Speaker 1: You know, it's just it.
16:17
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm a microbiologist, so this kind of stuff
16:21
Speaker 2: really alarms me. But the idea that we live in
16:26
Speaker 2: you know the United States or Australia, these technically developed
16:29
Speaker 2: nations who have water purification systems that are the envy
16:33
Speaker 2: of the world. Okay, our nations have some of the
16:36
Speaker 2: safest water you can possibly drink, and then you got
16:40
Speaker 2: someone who wants to go out and drink out of
16:41
Speaker 2: a puddle. I mean, it's just what are you thinking?
16:45
Speaker 1: What are you doing here?
16:47
Speaker 2: And it's just the same with the fluoride people. These
16:51
Speaker 2: individuals are you know, vilifying fluoride. They're vilifying tap water,
16:58
Speaker 2: and they're doing it through these immaculate teeth okay, beautiful
17:03
Speaker 2: and teeth, I know, cavities, white teeth. They are denigrating
17:09
Speaker 2: the very processes that gave them good dental hygiene. And
17:14
Speaker 2: I think it's just a slap in the face. It's
17:16
Speaker 2: so insensitive to underprivileged nations around the world who would
17:21
Speaker 2: give anything to have just a fraction of the water
17:26
Speaker 2: purification infrastructure that we enjoy in our nations.
17:31
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it angers me.
17:34
Speaker 2: It saddens me that these privileged people are vilifying the
17:38
Speaker 2: very things that make our water supply so safe. And
17:42
Speaker 2: what other things scare me is that some of the
17:45
Speaker 2: government agencies in the US which are now as of tomorrow,
17:50
Speaker 2: going to fall under you know, under the Trump administration,
17:55
Speaker 2: they're going to control these agencies. There's a lot of
17:59
Speaker 2: check and talk. I don't know if it's going to
18:01
Speaker 2: actually pan out, but there's a lot of chatter and
18:03
Speaker 2: talk that these agencies their funding is going to be cut.
18:07
Speaker 2: And when that happens, these agencies shrink in size and
18:10
Speaker 2: we don't have the public services or the quality that
18:13
Speaker 2: we normally enjoy that's associated with them. These are the
18:18
Speaker 2: last types of things that should be cut. You're damaging
18:22
Speaker 2: society by making cuts like this.
18:26
Speaker 1: And you know, it's just.
18:29
Speaker 2: It's just a really sad situation that a lot of
18:32
Speaker 2: people I understand suspicion and government. It's justified to a
18:36
Speaker 2: certain degree, but there are parts of government that do
18:39
Speaker 2: a really great job at keeping you safe, and those
18:43
Speaker 2: are not the areas you want to cut. And if
18:45
Speaker 2: you fool around and find out, it's going to cause
18:48
Speaker 2: a lot of pain and suffering and possibly even death.
18:52
Speaker 2: Why go down this road. Give you a quick example.
18:55
Speaker 2: We already know what's going to happen if we remove
18:58
Speaker 2: fluoride from the water, because Buffalo, a city in New York,
19:03
Speaker 2: did that back in twenty fifteen without telling the public,
19:07
Speaker 2: which is a whole other can of worms. Wow, officials
19:12
Speaker 2: removed fluoride from the water without the public knowing about it.
19:17
Speaker 1: So unbeknownst to.
19:18
Speaker 2: The public, all the kids in Buffalo were getting alarming
19:22
Speaker 2: amounts of cavities all of a sudden, their dental health
19:25
Speaker 2: was plummeting, they were having oral surgeries, gum disease. And
19:30
Speaker 2: then an investigative reporter in twenty twenty three finally figured
19:34
Speaker 2: out that officials removed fluoride from the water. It was
19:39
Speaker 2: immediately reinstated in twenty twenty four after massive amounts of
19:45
Speaker 2: lawsuits and there's a first class action lawsuit and process now,
19:49
Speaker 2: so we know what's going to happen if we take
19:52
Speaker 2: fluoride out of the water. Do we want every city
19:54
Speaker 2: in America to suffer what Buffalo just did.
20:00
Speaker 1: I just don't understand this. It's so funny, Like, yeah,
20:04
Speaker 1: this is why I love having these chats with you,
20:05
Speaker 1: because I mean literally, like like our listeners, I'm literally
20:10
Speaker 1: learning as I'm going. I heard RFK on Joe Rogan.
20:17
Speaker 1: Obviously the pinnacle of scientific conversation, right, It's like it's
20:22
Speaker 1: the high water mark forget all your journals listening to
20:25
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan and JFK anywhere you go anyway anyway.
20:30
Speaker 2: Well you're unfortunately, you're right, you're not alone. A lot
20:32
Speaker 2: of people will actually go to a program like that
20:35
Speaker 2: and believe that's what's true.
20:38
Speaker 1: Well that was. Yeah, Like, I'd never thought about fluoride
20:43
Speaker 1: in water until I heard him. And I know the
20:48
Speaker 1: other guy's name, but I could be getting him mixed up,
20:51
Speaker 1: so I won't say his name, but I'm pretty sure
20:53
Speaker 1: it was RFK. Might have been a guy called Gary
20:56
Speaker 1: Brecker everyone. I could be wrong on that, but anyway,
20:58
Speaker 1: but there was a conversation around the dangers and I'm
21:02
Speaker 1: listening to this and I'm thinking, fuck, I didn't know this.
21:05
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to I'm going to have to
21:06
Speaker 1: get a I'm going to have to just start drinking
21:09
Speaker 1: from the creek or I'm going to, like, we get
21:12
Speaker 1: the dangers of that too. Yeah. Yeah, I'm going to
21:15
Speaker 1: have to filter out the bloody fluoride because that's going
21:18
Speaker 1: to kill me and my bones are going to break
21:20
Speaker 1: and I'm going to fall down and die three decades early.
21:24
Speaker 1: But when it's presented in a way, I mean, this
21:27
Speaker 1: is the thing, is you then, and I'm not saying
21:30
Speaker 1: obviously not with everything. Of course, I think we do
21:34
Speaker 1: need to question things. I do wouldn't think we need
21:36
Speaker 1: to pay attention to real research, but that's one of
21:39
Speaker 1: the things is and I think there are lots of
21:42
Speaker 1: things that do need to be spoken about, you know,
21:45
Speaker 1: and not behind closed doors, but publicly, even if it's
21:48
Speaker 1: just for debate, and even if it's just for transparency.
21:52
Speaker 1: And you know, I remember I've spoken to you maybe
21:55
Speaker 1: about this, but I remember doctor Bill for twenty thirty
21:58
Speaker 1: years teaching the food pyramid because I thought that was
22:01
Speaker 1: the best science, you know, and I thought low fat,
22:04
Speaker 1: high sugar, or not high sugar, but low fat was
22:06
Speaker 1: the best because that's the And then it turns out
22:09
Speaker 1: probably not the best. And then but that you learn
22:12
Speaker 1: more or you come to a new understanding or awareness
22:16
Speaker 1: or knowledge or data, and you go, all right, I
22:18
Speaker 1: got it wrong. So I think there's always that's got
22:21
Speaker 1: to be like, we need to be open, as you said,
22:23
Speaker 1: until we get more research that contradicts our current research.
22:27
Speaker 1: Let's stay with what we actually know rather than what
22:30
Speaker 1: someone thinks. But the truth is, like everyone has an
22:36
Speaker 1: emotional attachment to something, you know, and so when you
22:40
Speaker 1: hear people that are basically evangelizing something which seems in
22:44
Speaker 1: terms of our current thinking, somewhat counterintuitive. You've got to
22:49
Speaker 1: wonder what that is just objective reality and what is emotion?
22:54
Speaker 1: And what is a sales pitch like you got to
22:58
Speaker 1: and then the general public me in that, I don't know,
23:02
Speaker 1: you're just trying to filter me. I don't know. I'm listening,
23:04
Speaker 1: like I listened to you, and I go well with this.
23:08
Speaker 1: You know infinitely more than me, and I trust you
23:11
Speaker 1: and like you, so I'm in right. But you can
23:14
Speaker 1: do that with other people as well. But maybe they're not.
23:18
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they even think they're right, but they're not.
23:22
Speaker 2: Well, that's possible. Confirmation bias is a real thing. You
23:25
Speaker 2: alluded it alluded to that earlier. So these individuals like
23:29
Speaker 2: they glom on to these few studies that look alarming,
23:33
Speaker 2: if you don't do a deeper dive on them, and
23:35
Speaker 2: you don't compare them to the wealth of literature that
23:38
Speaker 2: contradicts them, you can really glom onto that and get
23:41
Speaker 2: sucked down into a vortex of oh my gosh, this
23:44
Speaker 2: fluoride stuff is really horrible. This is this is going
23:47
Speaker 2: to kill people. When it's panic, it's alarm, and the
23:51
Speaker 2: whole reason they're doing this is so they can get attention,
23:54
Speaker 2: get clicks, get ratings. This is really reckless behavior and
23:59
Speaker 2: no one should be taking medical advice from people who
24:04
Speaker 2: are not doctors or scientists, and that's exactly what they're doing.
24:08
Speaker 2: And this is what frustrates professionals in my circle so much,
24:14
Speaker 2: because we get up every day, we roll up our sleeves,
24:17
Speaker 2: we're in the lab, we're doing the hard work trying
24:20
Speaker 2: to help people at the end of the day, and
24:23
Speaker 2: then you get these influencers that can just get on
24:26
Speaker 2: a podcast with some yahoo and everyone believes that because
24:32
Speaker 2: they're saying something interesting or framing it in a very
24:36
Speaker 2: scary emotional way, and they're not doing a balanced or honest,
24:41
Speaker 2: objective analysis of all the data. And like you said,
24:45
Speaker 2: maybe that's an honest mistake because they're sucked into this
24:48
Speaker 2: vortex themselves. But at the end of the day, it's
24:51
Speaker 2: just all such reckless behavior when it comes to public health.
24:56
Speaker 2: And I wish there was some sort of mechanism that
24:59
Speaker 2: could stop it. But with free press, freedom of speech,
25:03
Speaker 2: you know, I certainly don't want to curtail that. What
25:06
Speaker 2: we need to do is start educating the public or
25:09
Speaker 2: promoting shows like the U Project that actually has scientists,
25:15
Speaker 2: doctors and experts who know what they're talking about to
25:18
Speaker 2: try to set the record straight. So I got to
25:21
Speaker 2: thank you for doing a public service by allowing, you know,
25:27
Speaker 2: some boring scientists like myself to come on the air
25:30
Speaker 2: and tell people what's what.
25:33
Speaker 1: You're not that boring, You're not that. I mean, you know,
25:36
Speaker 1: we love you, You're great. I mean, for me, it's
25:39
Speaker 1: thank you for saying all that. That's nice and I
25:41
Speaker 1: do I mean what I always say to my audience
25:45
Speaker 1: that you know, I'm going to get stuff wrong. And
25:47
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of things wrong. And I've shared
25:50
Speaker 1: thoughts and ideas that down the track proved to be
25:52
Speaker 1: not the best thought or idea. But I think that
25:56
Speaker 1: all we can do is ask good questions and pay
25:59
Speaker 1: attention to we know versus what we think?
26:01
Speaker 2: You know?
26:01
Speaker 1: What is is what is the evidence and what does
26:05
Speaker 1: that mean? But I think one of the challenges quite
26:08
Speaker 1: often with stuff is that you know, like even with
26:12
Speaker 1: one of the studies that I ran that I conducted
26:15
Speaker 1: with my own research, I didn't get it didn't confirm
26:20
Speaker 1: my hypothesis right, It didn't with some of it like
26:23
Speaker 1: there were there were results that and it didn't matter
26:27
Speaker 1: because it is it is what it is. But I
26:30
Speaker 1: and in the middle of that, I thought, oh, no,
26:32
Speaker 1: wonder people can It would be really quite easy to
26:35
Speaker 1: manipulate this to create an outcome that would suit me better, right,
26:40
Speaker 1: But it didn't with one of them. It just didn't.
26:44
Speaker 1: But yeah, that that being able to For me, it's
26:46
Speaker 1: a blessing to be able to. I mean, if not
26:49
Speaker 1: for this, I wouldn't even know you. I wouldn't have
26:51
Speaker 1: the pleasure of doing this. And I'm not being disingenuous.
26:53
Speaker 1: I mean, for me, it's just fucking great because I
26:56
Speaker 1: learned so much. But also I also like and I'm
26:59
Speaker 1: not trying to do a sales pitch on you or
27:01
Speaker 1: me or the show, but I love I love the
27:05
Speaker 1: fact that you and I talked for five minutes before
27:08
Speaker 1: we start recording, and it's exactly the same as when
27:12
Speaker 1: we're recording, right, So you and me, like, there's no interview,
27:17
Speaker 1: there's just two blokes talking about stuff that both of
27:20
Speaker 1: us think. He's pretty interesting. And for me, that's the
27:24
Speaker 1: that's the value of trying to do something like this
27:27
Speaker 1: this way. I was going to say to you back
27:29
Speaker 1: to just quickly the you know, the importance of people
27:33
Speaker 1: having access to water that's not going to kill them.
27:36
Speaker 1: So there's a guy you're probably not a fan of
27:39
Speaker 1: the UFC, but there's a guy who was in the
27:42
Speaker 1: UFC for a long time. He's actually a big sweetheart.
27:46
Speaker 1: His name's Justin Wren. And speaking of Joe Rogan, he's
27:50
Speaker 1: been on Joe Rogan a bunch, and he went on
27:54
Speaker 1: a he went on a trip to Uganda, and I
27:57
Speaker 1: think he was I can't remember the motivation for him going,
28:01
Speaker 1: but when he was there, he had a bit of
28:03
Speaker 1: an epiphany and a spiritual revolution or awakening or whatever.
28:06
Speaker 1: And he met all of these literally pygmies who live
28:09
Speaker 1: in Uganda, who live in these the worst, harshest, harshest conditions.
28:16
Speaker 1: They didn't have access to clean drinking water. They were
28:19
Speaker 1: treated terribly by the government and a lot of the population. Anyway,
28:24
Speaker 1: he fell in love with them, and I think probably
28:26
Speaker 1: for the best part of the last ten years, even
28:29
Speaker 1: when he was still fighting. He has created all these
28:33
Speaker 1: programs around medical and health care and education. But one
28:38
Speaker 1: of the things that he's done is they've created thousands
28:40
Speaker 1: of clean wells. Obviously still not with fluoride, but so
28:48
Speaker 1: many of the people were dying, like dying quickly from
28:55
Speaker 1: water born. I guess is the term diseases like things
28:59
Speaker 1: that were in the war, they like they never had
29:02
Speaker 1: access to clean water ever, right, And yeah, you know
29:09
Speaker 1: that's a phenomenon.
29:10
Speaker 2: Such a simple thing can make such a huge difference
29:14
Speaker 2: in some of these nations, their entire you know GNP,
29:19
Speaker 2: their gross national product, goes into treating people for dysentery
29:22
Speaker 2: and diarrheal diseases, things that you never hear about over
29:26
Speaker 2: here but do exist.
29:29
Speaker 1: You know, if we.
29:30
Speaker 2: Yeah malaria as well, and if we resort to drinking
29:35
Speaker 2: raw water, we would be suffering from some of the
29:38
Speaker 2: same maladies that these people deal with on a day
29:41
Speaker 2: to day basis. Child mortality is through the roof in
29:46
Speaker 2: many of these nations. It's heartbreaking to see, Craig, So
29:50
Speaker 2: I'm really glad to hear of stories like that. They're
29:53
Speaker 2: they're very inspirational, and this is a very cheap and
29:58
Speaker 2: humane thing to do. Just give people clean drinking water.
30:01
Speaker 2: It can make it conceive lives.
30:04
Speaker 1: I was thinking before when I read the article about fluoride.
30:08
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm just going to give you the
30:09
Speaker 1: names of those articles. Everybody, it's yes, fluoride in your
30:12
Speaker 1: drinking water is a good thing. I don't know if
30:16
Speaker 1: people want to go. If they want to go look
30:18
Speaker 1: at it. They're at my website althor Bill Sullivan dot com.
30:22
Speaker 1: You'll find links to both these articles there, and they're
30:25
Speaker 1: really good. They're really good. They're a good read. So
30:28
Speaker 1: and you might read it and say, I'd like someone
30:30
Speaker 1: else to read this, so you know, have to read yourself.
30:33
Speaker 1: Go to doctor Bill's site, and then refer it on
30:36
Speaker 1: if you think it's appropriate. I was thinking, you know,
30:39
Speaker 1: because they started I think they introduced fluoride into the
30:43
Speaker 1: water in some parts of the States in the nineteen forties.
30:47
Speaker 1: This is a weird question, and I bet you've know
30:50
Speaker 1: they may have thought of it. I doubt it, but
30:54
Speaker 1: it addresses one particular health issue, oral hygiene, you know
30:58
Speaker 1: all of that. Is there something else potentially that I
31:02
Speaker 1: know people are like, fuck off, don't put anything in
31:04
Speaker 1: our water. But why did they target that one thing?
31:08
Speaker 2: Like?
31:09
Speaker 1: Is there are there any other let's put vitamin C
31:12
Speaker 1: in the water? I mean, you know what I mean.
31:16
Speaker 1: I wonder is there is there any other mineral that
31:18
Speaker 1: could be added? That would be, you know, a preventative
31:22
Speaker 1: strategy for some kind of health condition or like I
31:26
Speaker 1: wonder why it started and ended with fluoride, and I wonder, yeah,
31:31
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's any bigger potential beyond that.
31:35
Speaker 2: Well, fluoride's a unique case because about one hundred years ago,
31:38
Speaker 2: like I said, correlations were being made in the areas
31:41
Speaker 2: that have high natural fluoride in the environment. The tooth
31:47
Speaker 2: problems that we were seeing in other parts of the
31:49
Speaker 2: country were just non existent. So someone just got the
31:52
Speaker 2: bright idea, well, hey, let's just put a little fluoride
31:54
Speaker 2: in everybody's water and everyone can enjoy this benefit. So
31:58
Speaker 2: that's that's the unique story behind fluoride.
32:00
Speaker 1: But as to your.
32:01
Speaker 2: Other point, what about other minerals? You know, people need calcium, magnesium, sodium.
32:07
Speaker 1: You know those are in tapwater. Though.
32:10
Speaker 2: This is one of the things that the raw water
32:13
Speaker 2: movement gets wrong. They vilify tapwater, saying that the purification
32:18
Speaker 2: process strips healthy minerals out of the water, and that's
32:22
Speaker 2: just not true at all. Minerals are way too small
32:25
Speaker 2: to be filtered out. They're in your water whether you
32:29
Speaker 2: like it or not, and the mineral content does vary
32:32
Speaker 2: across the country because there's different types of rocks all
32:35
Speaker 2: around the country. So if you want to have more consistency,
32:40
Speaker 2: or if you think your water is lacking in mineral
32:42
Speaker 2: content for some reason, there are tests you can buy.
32:45
Speaker 2: You can find out exactly what types of minerals are
32:48
Speaker 2: or are not in your water. And if you find
32:51
Speaker 2: any that are lacking, there's even mineral drops you can
32:54
Speaker 2: add to your water to supplement it with minerals. I
32:58
Speaker 2: don't recommend that because water in and of itself is
33:03
Speaker 2: not a great source of minerals. Okay, you get most
33:07
Speaker 2: of them your diet. I would not obsess over Oh
33:11
Speaker 2: my gosh, my my water probably doesn't have as much
33:14
Speaker 2: magnesium as someone else's.
33:17
Speaker 1: You're fine.
33:18
Speaker 2: Just you're going to get most of your magnesium from
33:20
Speaker 2: your diet. It's not something you need to worry about.
33:23
Speaker 2: But this is one of those things that the raw
33:25
Speaker 2: water people latch onto to try to demonize tap water.
33:30
Speaker 2: So they're they're spreading a lot of misinformation and and
33:34
Speaker 2: and just plane you know, I don't know if they're
33:37
Speaker 2: purposefully lying or if they're misguided or what, but it's
33:42
Speaker 2: just not true that minerals are stripped out of your
33:45
Speaker 2: tap water.
33:47
Speaker 1: I could be wrong on this, but I think I
33:51
Speaker 1: think I mentioned in something relating Tarif Kain in the article,
33:54
Speaker 1: but also in this Joe Rogan conversation that that that
34:02
Speaker 1: fluoride had a detrimental impact on IQ or brain function. Right,
34:07
Speaker 1: let's talk about that. That's a good one. Yeah, yeah,
34:09
Speaker 1: let's what what is? Because that also scared the shit
34:12
Speaker 1: out of me. Then I forgot about it because I'm there,
34:15
Speaker 1: you go, because I'm a low brain function judo fluoride. Yeah,
34:19
Speaker 1: you must be ingesting too much of it, and so
34:24
Speaker 1: tell us about that.
34:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, the i Q thing is really interesting and and
34:28
Speaker 2: it certainly is one of the talking points that RFK jr.
34:32
Speaker 2: And the anti fluoride people uh harp on a lot.
34:38
Speaker 2: And that's There was one study that was done in Canada,
34:46
Speaker 2: which puts more fluoride into the water than we do,
34:50
Speaker 2: and it was a very small study, and it showed
34:54
Speaker 2: that pregnant mothers who had more than the usual amount
35:00
Speaker 2: of fluoride, when they did a longitudinal analysis and looked
35:04
Speaker 2: at their children growing up, they had a minor drop
35:08
Speaker 2: in IQ. Three IQ points was the max. And I
35:11
Speaker 2: think it was only seen in girls for some reason
35:14
Speaker 2: that wasn't seen in boys, but don't quote me on that.
35:18
Speaker 2: I'm not entirely sure about the ins and outs of
35:20
Speaker 2: the studies. It's been a little while since I looked
35:22
Speaker 2: at it, but the difference was extremely modest. The fluoride
35:26
Speaker 2: level is not comparable to what we use in the
35:29
Speaker 2: United States, and studies like this are fraught with confounding variables.
35:35
Speaker 2: And by that I mean there could be many other
35:38
Speaker 2: explanations why these children appeared to show a minor drop
35:43
Speaker 2: in IQ. So how do we get around those confounding variables. Well,
35:47
Speaker 2: we need other groups to repeat those sorts of studies.
35:52
Speaker 2: I would view that IQ study Craig like I classified
35:56
Speaker 2: it earlier, as a preliminary study. Okay, it's a small study.
36:01
Speaker 2: This is a potentially interesting result. It warrants further investigation.
36:06
Speaker 2: It certainly does not warrant panic about the fluoride in
36:10
Speaker 2: the water at this point. Okay. So another study just
36:16
Speaker 2: came out last week, another IQ study. I think it
36:20
Speaker 2: was inspired by this preliminary study.
36:22
Speaker 1: It was a little.
36:23
Speaker 2: Larger and it showed again a very modest effect, but
36:28
Speaker 2: only in places that are using way too much fluoride.
36:33
Speaker 2: So the headline screamed, once again, much to my chagrin,
36:39
Speaker 2: fluoride lower's IQ. What the headline should have said is
36:44
Speaker 2: that the amount of fluoride that we use in our
36:46
Speaker 2: tapwater has no effect on IQ, because that's what the
36:51
Speaker 2: study showed. When people ingest the levels of fluoride that
36:56
Speaker 2: we use in tapwater, there was absolutely no association with
37:00
Speaker 2: higher or lower IQ.
37:02
Speaker 1: Wow wow, and these are these are that's that's not sorry,
37:08
Speaker 1: that's not going to sell papers or get bums on
37:10
Speaker 1: seats or get attention, is it. Well?
37:13
Speaker 2: The authors of the paper even said that, and and
37:15
Speaker 2: they must be really frustrated with how the news agencies
37:19
Speaker 2: frame their research. And this happens to scientists all the
37:23
Speaker 2: time because, like you said, in order to get clicks,
37:25
Speaker 2: in order to get people's attention, you need to make
37:27
Speaker 2: it scary, you need to make it emotional. And if
37:30
Speaker 2: you put out a study that says there's no there's
37:32
Speaker 2: no change in IQ. The study was a bust. What
37:36
Speaker 2: we what we did learn is we can't put too
37:38
Speaker 2: much fluoride in the water and we don't.
37:41
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, now my listeners are probably thinking how much
37:46
Speaker 1: fluoride is in our order? So I've been doing a
37:49
Speaker 1: little bit of research while also listening. That's how fucking
37:51
Speaker 1: well my brain works because of the fluorid I have.
37:54
Speaker 1: So so the recommendation in this article, doc was point
37:59
Speaker 1: seven milligram per leader of drinking water.
38:01
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's what we're using the stats.
38:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, so let me just tell you everyone, and we
38:08
Speaker 3: should also say while you brought that up, that most
38:11
Speaker 3: natural levels of fluoride out in the environment exceed that amount.
38:16
Speaker 1: Right.
38:16
Speaker 2: Wow, but this is the lowest amount that scientists have
38:19
Speaker 2: found that is absolutely safe, but still confers a dramatic
38:24
Speaker 2: benefit on dental health.
38:27
Speaker 1: Okay, so in Melbourne where well here we go Australian
38:34
Speaker 1: states and territories, very there, very within the range of
38:40
Speaker 1: point six. So remember doctor Bill said point seven in
38:44
Speaker 1: the states, point six to one point one, So of
38:48
Speaker 1: fluoride per leader, the milligrams per leader, so milligrams per lead,
38:53
Speaker 1: and I think Melbourne it's I just found something that
38:56
Speaker 1: said Melbourne is less than one milligram per la. So
39:00
Speaker 1: it's in the ballpark, so I've done. Yeah, they sound comparable. Yeah,
39:05
Speaker 1: I don't think weed to panic.
39:08
Speaker 2: Well, I will tell your listeners that if you are
39:12
Speaker 2: ingesting too much fluoride. You will know because your teeth
39:15
Speaker 2: will start to become discolored. Like I said, the fluoride
39:20
Speaker 2: literally binds to your enamel. It's one of the chemical
39:22
Speaker 2: constituents that makes it strong. But you will see if
39:27
Speaker 2: you have excess fluoride a little discoloration in your teeth.
39:31
Speaker 2: There's some studies that suggest that's actually healthy because it
39:34
Speaker 2: helps build even tougher enamel.
39:36
Speaker 1: But to me, it's an easy.
39:39
Speaker 2: Way to alert people that there's too much fluoride in
39:42
Speaker 2: your environment. So if your teeth aren't being you know,
39:47
Speaker 2: it's called fluoridosis. If you don't have symptoms of this,
39:49
Speaker 2: people can google it and see what it looks like online. Okay,
39:53
Speaker 2: and if your teeth start looking like that, you should
39:54
Speaker 2: tell the authorities. Hey, there might be too much fluoride
39:57
Speaker 2: in my water.
40:00
Speaker 1: People. I'm just wondering, can people test their own tapwater
40:04
Speaker 1: at home? Like I'm guessing there must be a test
40:08
Speaker 1: that you could see how much fluoride is in what's
40:11
Speaker 1: coming out of your tap. Not that I think we
40:12
Speaker 1: need to do this or worry about this everyone. This
40:15
Speaker 1: is just a curiosity.
40:18
Speaker 2: No, there's there's certainly there's tests for all the minerals
40:21
Speaker 2: in your water, you can like buy I don't know
40:26
Speaker 2: the name of it, but you can. I saw one
40:28
Speaker 2: test that tested for multiple minerals all in one shot. Yeah,
40:32
Speaker 2: and for people who there's a lot of homes at
40:35
Speaker 2: least in the US, where they filter the tap water
40:39
Speaker 2: that comes to their home.
40:41
Speaker 1: Yep.
40:42
Speaker 2: So if you do that, you actually remove the vast
40:46
Speaker 2: majority of the fluoride along with all the other minerals,
40:49
Speaker 2: because those depending on what sort of filtration device you
40:53
Speaker 2: use in your house. Wow, that could strip the minerals
40:57
Speaker 2: out of the tap water. Tap water itself has minerals.
41:01
Speaker 2: But if you do like reverse osmosis in your home
41:04
Speaker 2: because you don't like to taste the tap water or
41:06
Speaker 2: something like that, that can strip some of the minerals out.
41:12
Speaker 2: Like I said earlier, if you're paranoid about that, which
41:14
Speaker 2: you shouldn't be. There are people who take advantage of
41:18
Speaker 2: this and sell mineral drops. You know, they scare people
41:21
Speaker 2: in this saying, oh, your water is now depleted of minerals.
41:24
Speaker 2: You should buy my drops and add them back. You
41:26
Speaker 2: can do that if you want. Professionally, I'm telling you
41:30
Speaker 2: it's not necessary. You get all the minerals you need
41:33
Speaker 2: from your diet.
41:36
Speaker 1: I don't even know what the I should know more
41:39
Speaker 1: about the rationale behind what I'm about to say, but
41:41
Speaker 1: I don't. But a friend of mine who will remain nameless,
41:45
Speaker 1: it's a hey, he he is really really what's toward
41:54
Speaker 1: Let's just go strict concerned about his water and I
42:03
Speaker 1: think he filters it three different ways like he would
42:07
Speaker 1: He will never drink out of a tap, right, And
42:11
Speaker 1: I don't want to say too much, But is that
42:14
Speaker 1: just for taste reasons or no? No, No, it's a
42:17
Speaker 1: health thing. No, it's not about taste at all. It's
42:20
Speaker 1: he doesn't because he thinks. And really I haven't gone
42:23
Speaker 1: into it with him, and maybe I should just out
42:26
Speaker 1: of curiosity not judgment. But yeah, and he's he really
42:32
Speaker 1: worries quite a bit about the water that he'd like
42:36
Speaker 1: a lot, the water that he drinks.
42:39
Speaker 2: Well, there are some valid reasons for a concern. You know,
42:42
Speaker 2: there's been a few incidences in the United States where
42:45
Speaker 2: tap water was found to contain a nasty chemical, you know,
42:50
Speaker 2: from an industrial complex that was nearby. We had the
42:54
Speaker 2: whole Flint, Michigan lead crisis. That wasn't a water purification issue, say,
43:00
Speaker 2: but that was bad pipes that they shifted to running
43:03
Speaker 2: it through, and it was just a political failure more
43:07
Speaker 2: than anything else. Yes, But those are those are the
43:12
Speaker 2: exceptions to the rule, Okay. And so I can understand
43:16
Speaker 2: your friend's concern about tap water and wanting to be
43:19
Speaker 2: extra cautious and filtering it. I myself would probably err
43:23
Speaker 2: more on the side of caution than doing something like
43:26
Speaker 2: raw water. You know, you got these two ends of
43:28
Speaker 2: the spectrum here. Being a little more conservative about the
43:32
Speaker 2: content of your water is I think a little more
43:34
Speaker 2: health conscious. Maybe you're going overboard, but you know, better
43:40
Speaker 2: safe than sorry in some in some cases. But the
43:44
Speaker 2: thing is that you know he's doing this extra filtration.
43:50
Speaker 2: He's probably doing it because of some of the stories
43:53
Speaker 2: that have been linking tap water to an occasional breach
43:57
Speaker 2: of either a pathogen or an industrial pollutant or something
44:01
Speaker 2: like lead. Again, those are rare cases. I don't lose
44:04
Speaker 2: sleep over them, but they have happened, and they are real.
44:08
Speaker 2: The other thing that people should keep in mind to
44:10
Speaker 2: balance this out, is that at least in the States,
44:13
Speaker 2: our EPA screens for nearly one hundred chemical contaminants, including
44:19
Speaker 2: lead in the tapwater and they routinely do this, so
44:23
Speaker 2: if something comes up, they're going to alert the public
44:26
Speaker 2: not to drink their tapwater to the situation gets resolved.
44:30
Speaker 2: So we have these health checks in place. Australia probably
44:33
Speaker 2: has a very similar system. And just this year, the
44:37
Speaker 2: Biden administration included another component that the EPA needs to
44:42
Speaker 2: start screening for, and that's the pfas, one of these
44:45
Speaker 2: forever chemicals, and I was thrilled to read that. That's
44:49
Speaker 2: a fantastic addition that the EPA should be screening our
44:53
Speaker 2: tapwater for.
44:57
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the right question, but
45:01
Speaker 1: what are the most common microbial contaminants? Is that the
45:07
Speaker 1: right word that we might that might show up in
45:11
Speaker 1: raw water.
45:13
Speaker 2: Raw water is filled with a myriad of different pathogens
45:18
Speaker 2: that you could potentially acquire, and mostly all of them
45:21
Speaker 2: are going to give you the nastiest stomach infection you've
45:24
Speaker 2: ever had in your life. So I'll break them down
45:27
Speaker 2: into the different types. The main viruses you can get
45:31
Speaker 2: from raw water would include neurovirus, the one that's famous
45:36
Speaker 2: on cruise ships. You know that rips through cruise ships
45:39
Speaker 2: and forces them to dock early. But neurovirus is found
45:42
Speaker 2: pretty much anywhere and rotavirus. Now, both of them will
45:48
Speaker 2: give you nasty, short lived diarrheal infections and they spread
45:53
Speaker 2: like wildfire. So this is one of the underappreciated things
45:58
Speaker 2: about drinking. People who drink raw water, they might think, oh, well,
46:03
Speaker 2: i'll get sick, I'll deal with it. While you're sick,
46:06
Speaker 2: you can commune that disease to another innocent person. And
46:11
Speaker 2: that's what gets me a little angry. This is a
46:14
Speaker 2: public health thing. You're being very selfish, you're that kind
46:18
Speaker 2: of mentality, you know. But another virus can be in
46:21
Speaker 2: the water that causes hepatitis A, and nobody wants a
46:25
Speaker 2: liver infection. The bacteria would be fecal bacteria lovely to
46:31
Speaker 2: talk about, right e coli sound mella. This means that
46:35
Speaker 2: somewhere along the way, literally shit got into the water
46:39
Speaker 2: and that's what you're drinking. And this can be human shit,
46:44
Speaker 2: it can be from animals. It's just disgusting.
46:48
Speaker 1: Why would you want to do this.
46:50
Speaker 2: Tap water screens those pathogens out, kills them with chlorine.
46:55
Speaker 2: So those are the bacterial infections, and then we get
46:58
Speaker 2: into my favorite Craig parasites. Okay, we have cryptosporidium, We
47:04
Speaker 2: have cyclospora, we have toxoplasma, which we've talked about on
47:09
Speaker 2: your show a number of times.
47:11
Speaker 1: We have Can you get that through cats as well? Cats? Rain?
47:16
Speaker 2: That's right, well, not cat, we just catsis ca seces
47:21
Speaker 2: comes out in their feces. So with a lot of
47:24
Speaker 2: feral cats roaming around some of these natural sources of water,
47:29
Speaker 2: you know the cat shit's going to get into the
47:30
Speaker 2: water at some point. And a storm can make this
47:34
Speaker 2: even worse because it makes all the shit in the
47:36
Speaker 2: soil run into the water. Okay, and then you get
47:39
Speaker 2: all these bacteria, all these parasites, all these viruses. Like
47:43
Speaker 2: I said in the article, it's aquatic Russian rule at
47:47
Speaker 2: and you don't really know which one of these you
47:49
Speaker 2: ingested that upsets your stomach. But some of these, you know,
47:54
Speaker 2: a lot of these people will say, okay, well I'll
47:56
Speaker 2: get I'll get the runs for a few days and
47:58
Speaker 2: then I'll get better. One you can spread that to
48:01
Speaker 2: other innocent people. If you're very young or very old,
48:04
Speaker 2: or compromise, these things can literally kill you. And that's
48:10
Speaker 2: not only in the drinkers of the raw water, but
48:12
Speaker 2: the people you might spread it to. So This is
48:15
Speaker 2: just an inconceivably stupid thing to do. And like I
48:20
Speaker 2: said before, it's just kind of slap in the face
48:22
Speaker 2: to the nations who don't enjoy the privilege of having
48:27
Speaker 2: safe water to drink on a daily basis.
48:31
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, a lot of animals must have
48:33
Speaker 1: a very robust, bloody constitution. Because some think about where
48:40
Speaker 1: most animals drink from and what they drink and what
48:44
Speaker 1: they would be ingesting.
48:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's a couple. There's a couple. That's a
48:48
Speaker 2: good point. There's a couple things to consider when you
48:51
Speaker 2: raise that issue. First of all, wild animals are riddled
48:54
Speaker 2: with parasites. Okay, many of them die from these parasites.
48:58
Speaker 2: How many of them are sick because of it. So
49:03
Speaker 2: it's interesting to contemplate that, you know, wildlife must be okay, right, No,
49:08
Speaker 2: they're not. You go out there and pick up a
49:10
Speaker 2: random squirrel, beaver, you cut it open, you're going to
49:12
Speaker 2: find plenty of parasites, and that animal may live a
49:15
Speaker 2: very short life. You know, you're not doing a study
49:17
Speaker 2: on its quality of life. The other thing that people
49:23
Speaker 2: fail to consider is that there are co evolutionary relationships
49:26
Speaker 2: with wildlife and the pathogens in water. They may have
49:30
Speaker 2: developed some degree of tolerance to some of those infections. Okay,
49:36
Speaker 2: they have a completely different microbiome than what we have,
49:40
Speaker 2: for example, and they may be able to fight some
49:43
Speaker 2: of these infections better or minimize them. But if you
49:46
Speaker 2: talk to most people who study wildlife, you pick any
49:50
Speaker 2: animal out there, it's going to be riddled with parasites
49:52
Speaker 2: and germs.
49:53
Speaker 1: That's why we have to.
49:54
Speaker 2: Cook our food, right, we have to cook our meat
49:56
Speaker 2: or else we're going to get those germs too.
50:00
Speaker 1: One which is a left turn. It still involves water,
50:04
Speaker 1: but it's unrelated to either of the articles. And I
50:08
Speaker 1: don't know if you're going to be more informed than me,
50:11
Speaker 1: I suggest you would be. So there's been there's been
50:18
Speaker 1: quite a bit of conversation around drinking water out of
50:22
Speaker 1: plastic bottles because the plastic has chemicals that leach into
50:26
Speaker 1: the water. Thalates one of them. I don't know what
50:30
Speaker 1: a fucking thalate is, doc, but I hear them talking
50:33
Speaker 1: about thalates all the time, and apparently plays havoc with
50:37
Speaker 1: testosterone levels and the endocrime system and not just men
50:41
Speaker 1: but women, And so I know next to nothing about it.
50:45
Speaker 1: But can you talk to us do I need to drink?
50:48
Speaker 1: Do I need to have my water at the gym
50:50
Speaker 1: in a glass bottle or a metal bottle or a
50:53
Speaker 1: container like this one that I have. Oh, you can't
50:56
Speaker 1: see because my camera. Like I drink out of like
50:59
Speaker 1: insulate metal. I don't really drink cataplastic bottles. But in general,
51:03
Speaker 1: can you help us that?
51:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, excellent question, and this is one that I would
51:08
Speaker 2: classify under ongoing research. Okay, there's been some preliminary studies
51:13
Speaker 2: that do suggest some of the chemical components in plastic
51:17
Speaker 2: water bottles, especially the older ones that have been made
51:20
Speaker 2: with the endocrine disruptor that you mentioned BPA, There's been
51:25
Speaker 2: some studies, mostly in rodent models, that suggest that they
51:28
Speaker 2: can interfere with hormone levels, and especially in children, this
51:32
Speaker 2: might be a very dangerous thing because they're still developing.
51:36
Speaker 2: BPA has been removed from a lot of plastic water
51:39
Speaker 2: bottles in recent times because of these studies. You just
51:42
Speaker 2: don't want to take chances on it, and I think
51:44
Speaker 2: that's a smart move. But who knows what else might
51:47
Speaker 2: be in those plastic water bottles. Plastic is generally not
51:50
Speaker 2: a natural substance. You know, it's got a lot of
51:53
Speaker 2: man made chemicals, and we aren't entirely sure what they
51:58
Speaker 2: might do to the human body. And we also don't
52:01
Speaker 2: know for sure again doses everything, how much of this
52:06
Speaker 2: actually leaches into the water, how much of it actually
52:09
Speaker 2: remains in the body and causes the problem. I'd frankly
52:13
Speaker 2: be a little more worried about the microplastics issue. We've
52:16
Speaker 2: already been seeing a lot of microplastics in wildlife, out
52:20
Speaker 2: in the environment and in people as well, and we
52:24
Speaker 2: don't fully know what the consequences of that are. But
52:28
Speaker 2: I'm venturing the guests they might not be all that great,
52:31
Speaker 2: So for the time being, I know, if you're looking
52:37
Speaker 2: for my personal recommendation, I try to stay away from
52:41
Speaker 2: any plastic water bottle that has BPA or other endocrine
52:44
Speaker 2: disruptors in it. These would be older ones. Newer ones
52:48
Speaker 2: probably don't have those materials. Now that said, I would
52:51
Speaker 2: go one step further and just use a glass or
52:56
Speaker 2: steel water bottle like you showed on your They can't
53:00
Speaker 2: see your screen, but you use a steel water bottle. Yeah,
53:05
Speaker 2: use that. Use glass. There's no question about the safety
53:10
Speaker 2: of those in my mind.
53:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, But the.
53:14
Speaker 2: Plastic ones, I think it's I think the research is ongoing.
53:19
Speaker 1: Another thing, and this is I'm not asking a question,
53:21
Speaker 1: just throwing it out there. I think I also worry about,
53:25
Speaker 1: not for a myriad of reasons, but one microwaving food.
53:29
Speaker 1: Maybe we can talk about that one day, I don't know,
53:31
Speaker 1: but also microwaving food in plastic. So you're putting food
53:36
Speaker 1: in a plastic Let's say you got some takeaway food
53:39
Speaker 1: from the whatever the tie join or the Chinese join
53:42
Speaker 1: or the Italian joint, it doesn't matter what it was.
53:45
Speaker 1: And now you know it's day two, and you take
53:48
Speaker 1: the leftovers out of the fridge and then you zap
53:50
Speaker 1: it in the microwave, and now you've got one or
53:53
Speaker 1: two day old food being microwaved in plastic. And that
53:58
Speaker 1: intersection of hot food plastic. I worry about that as well.
54:02
Speaker 1: I don't do that, but I worry about people doing that.
54:06
Speaker 2: I don't do that myself either. M I mean to
54:11
Speaker 2: be honest with you, I have not looked at the
54:14
Speaker 2: studies that say whether it's safe or not. But in
54:18
Speaker 2: my mind, it's just something that I don't need to do,
54:21
Speaker 2: so why would I do it. It's very easy to
54:24
Speaker 2: put it onto a ceramic plate or you know, other
54:28
Speaker 2: other dish and just or put it on the stovetop.
54:31
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a big deal.
54:33
Speaker 2: By the way, I want to show you my this
54:35
Speaker 2: is what I drink my water out.
54:36
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, the Bill's got a skull glass. That's terror glass.
54:43
Speaker 1: That is that is significant too. That looks like come,
54:46
Speaker 1: it's not taste, badass man? Look at that is that
54:50
Speaker 1: looks like a lad that looks me? Or what?
54:54
Speaker 2: Yeah?
54:54
Speaker 1: That's you. You're You're a weapon. Dude. You're terrifying. When
54:57
Speaker 1: I think of terrifying, I don't think of you. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
55:01
Speaker 1: But that's okay, that's okay. We don't need to be
55:05
Speaker 1: scaring people. Hey, how do people find you? Follow you,
55:07
Speaker 1: connect with you? And also access those articles again?
55:12
Speaker 2: Right, the articles that we were talking about today were
55:14
Speaker 2: published in Self magazine. Shout out to the reporters who
55:17
Speaker 2: contacted me to get that information. You can find the
55:21
Speaker 2: links on my website, author Bill Sullivan dot com, along
55:26
Speaker 2: with a whole bunch of other stuff and all the
55:28
Speaker 2: other episodes of the You project that I've done with
55:31
Speaker 2: Craigor there too.
55:32
Speaker 1: Awesome, Michael saygobye affair. But I always appreciate you and
55:37
Speaker 1: good luck with the ensuing mayhem that is four years
55:41
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. Betton down the hatches. Thanks man, I'm
55:47
Speaker 1: going to need it. Thanks Bro,