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Section 230 and Media Ownership: A Conversation with Attorney Mitch Jackson · Uncensored Objection

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:01
SPEAKER_00: And we are live.
0:03
SPEAKER_00: Hey, Mitch, it's great to see you.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for making the time to do this today.
0:08
SPEAKER_01: Are you kidding me?
0:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm loving it.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Meredith, for asking.
0:12
SPEAKER_01: This is a great platform.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: We were just talking about Substack before we went live,
0:17
SPEAKER_01: and this is going to be a great topic.
0:19
SPEAKER_01: So thanks for having me on.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Of course.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to,
0:23
SPEAKER_00: before we get into the conversation,
0:25
SPEAKER_00: I think most people who've heard of Section 230 have Maybe have no idea
0:30
SPEAKER_00: where it comes from.
0:31
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's worth setting that up because the origin really explains everything
0:34
SPEAKER_00: about how the law is built.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: So before you take us into the Prodigy case, what was the internet even like in 1995?
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And why is a lawsuit from that era still governing what we see on our phone today?
0:49
SPEAKER_01: Let me start with you're talking to the right guy because I was around back then.
0:54
SPEAKER_01: I was practicing law before the internet came around.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: I've always kind of been a tech guy, Meredith.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: So as soon as we started hearing about this thing called dial-up modems and laptops
1:05
SPEAKER_01: and things like this, the internet, I was all in.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: And the internet back then was something that few people were using right before
1:14
SPEAKER_01: the 1995 ruling, which brought us this code section.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: Few people were using it.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: I think we threw up our first website around 1994,
1:23
SPEAKER_01: 1995, and really looked at it as a static billboard.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: It was a site that allowed people to go to and learn about our law firm.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: If they wanted to click and email us or click and get a phone number, they could do that.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: And that's the important distinction between how things were back then And
1:44
SPEAKER_01: the way they are today.
1:46
SPEAKER_01: So back in the day, we were all trying to kick the tires and figure this thing out, right?
1:51
SPEAKER_01: But I will tell you,
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Meredith,
1:52
SPEAKER_01: one of the things that attracted my attention too,
1:56
SPEAKER_01: and by the way, everyone that's joining us, this is awesome, both live and recorded.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad that we've got both of our communities together.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: And I want to tell everybody right now,
2:06
SPEAKER_01: if you're watching this live or recorded,
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Follow and connect with Meredith on Substack.
2:11
SPEAKER_01: She's got some great stuff that she's working on.
2:14
SPEAKER_01: Meredith,
2:15
SPEAKER_01: you have to tell me about your background real quick with reporting from
2:20
SPEAKER_01: the boardroom.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: And then I saw something else that grabbed my attention that most people aren't doing.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: You have a really crazy experience and background.
2:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, I would love to talk to you about that,
2:31
SPEAKER_00: but I think most people are tuning in to hear you talk about Section 230.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: So let's cover that a little bit more, too.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't want us to get briefed around, but thank you.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, because that's why I'm so glad we connected.
2:42
SPEAKER_01: So back around 1995 and before...
2:46
SPEAKER_01: It was basically the Wild West.
2:48
SPEAKER_01: And what a lot of people don't realize is they may have heard of Section 230 of
2:52
SPEAKER_01: the U.S. Code, but what that all came from was something we're all familiar with.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: And if you've seen the movie Wolf of Wall Street,
3:01
SPEAKER_01: It's a story about Jordan Belfort and his company Stratton Oakmont.
3:10
SPEAKER_01: And Leonardo DiCaprio played the lead role in the show.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: It's just a crazy story of a firm in Wall Street that was doing some really crazy things.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: And what happened is somebody jumped on a platform called Prodigy.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Which was a platform well-known back in the day, dial-up platform.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: And an anonymous user made some allegations against the company
3:32
SPEAKER_01: that they were basically committing fraud.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: And fun fact,
3:37
SPEAKER_01: about a year later,
3:38
SPEAKER_01: I believe that's what the company either pled guilty to or was found guilty.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: I was going to say, it wasn't a
3:45
SPEAKER_00: false allocation.
3:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: But this is what the, so what happened was, is Stratton Oakmont filed a lawsuit against Protégé.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: I think that's what it's called,
3:57
SPEAKER_01: Prodigy,
3:58
SPEAKER_01: and asserted that they were violating the law and they were allowing people
4:04
SPEAKER_01: to commit and state fraudulent statements on their platform.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: And to make a very long story short,
4:11
SPEAKER_01: the regulators got involved,
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Congress got involved,
4:13
SPEAKER_01: and people started realizing, okay,
4:16
SPEAKER_01: there needs to be some type of law protecting platforms that Like Prodigy back then,
4:23
SPEAKER_01: like Yahoo,
4:23
SPEAKER_01: like Google, whatever the platform may be, from a certain type of lawsuit.
4:29
SPEAKER_01: And that's where Section 230 came along.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: And Section 230,
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Meredith, and I've got some of it up here on my screen, I think it's interesting.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: What Section 230 says specifically,
4:40
SPEAKER_01: and this is what everyone needs to pay attention to,
4:43
SPEAKER_01: it says, quote,
4:44
SPEAKER_01: no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as
4:50
SPEAKER_01: the publisher or speaker of any information provided
4:54
SPEAKER_01: by another information content provider.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: So it allowed these companies to do business,
5:01
SPEAKER_01: open up their services without having to be worried about being sued.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: So that's where 230 came from.
5:07
SPEAKER_01: It came from the Wolf of Wall Street lawsuit.
5:10
SPEAKER_01: And fast forward, here we are today talking about it.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's a great story.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: And it's really interesting.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: So that threw up essentially a force field,
5:19
SPEAKER_00: even though a year later, it was proved that what was posted was actually accurate.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: So why do you think Congress chose to protect those platforms with this shield
5:31
SPEAKER_00: of immunity, rather than punish them for not policing the content on the platform?
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Where do you think that decision came from?
5:43
SPEAKER_01: It's a good question because I think there was a different mindset back then.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: I think everything that Congress does,
5:48
SPEAKER_01: what we're seeing today is driven by money,
5:52
SPEAKER_01: by finance, by special interests, by power.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: That's what we're seeing today and why you and I write on Substack.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: But going back to the days of 1995 when 230 was enacted, those same dynamics came into play.
6:06
SPEAKER_01: But I think also what was happening is our elected representatives,
6:12
SPEAKER_01: people from the different internet companies,
6:13
SPEAKER_01: were trying to set up something where they could provide these internet services
6:18
SPEAKER_01: and not have to worry about being sued out of business.
6:21
SPEAKER_01: And back then, these services were static services.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: They were allowing
6:30
SPEAKER_01: The analogy I make, Meredith, is they're providing the wiring in our homes.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: Think about it like this.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: Back in the day when an electrician wired your home, If,
6:42
SPEAKER_01: after the job was done,
6:44
SPEAKER_01: you got into a fight with your spouse or you got into a disagreement with your child
6:49
SPEAKER_01: or something was said that was mean about a neighbor,
6:52
SPEAKER_01: whatever happened inside that home after the wiring wasn't the electrician's fault,
6:58
SPEAKER_01: okay?
6:59
SPEAKER_01: It was the responsibility of the people living in that home to,
7:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:03
SPEAKER_01: to suffer and or deal with the consequences of what was said inside those walls
7:08
SPEAKER_01: of their home.
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SPEAKER_01: It was a static relationship.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: The electricity wired and powered the home,
7:14
SPEAKER_01: but what happened inside the home was a separate interaction.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: Fast forward today, that's not what we're seeing with algorithms and AI.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: What we're seeing is that, yeah, it's an important point.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: What we're seeing today is that these companies and services,
7:30
SPEAKER_01: through artificial And specifically through algorithms driven
7:35
SPEAKER_01: by AI are actually influencing and affecting and modifying specifically with intent
7:44
SPEAKER_01: the behavior of that same family in that same home.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: And there have been some lawsuits that have come out of that
7:51
SPEAKER_01: where you've got somebody,
7:53
SPEAKER_01: you know, a young girl, Looking at her screen on her phone at two in the morning.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: And it's not because she tapped and asked to see something,
8:00
SPEAKER_01: which is the way the websites were back in 1995 when this law was created.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not because she asked to see something.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: TikTok specifically fed her something through the algorithm to her For You page,
8:16
SPEAKER_01: which resulted in her then acting upon what TikTok sent her.
8:23
SPEAKER_01: Which ultimately resulted in her tragic death.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's one case that we look at as an example of the difference between how
8:31
SPEAKER_01: the internet was back in the day to how it is in today's world
8:36
SPEAKER_01: where we're basically being manipulated, directed.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Even if you're not aware of it, it's happening behind the scenes as to what we're doing.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a new set of rules,
8:46
SPEAKER_01: a new set of activity, a new set of conduct that's taking place in today's world.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: That many argue,
8:52
SPEAKER_01: including me, should result in some changes, some modifications to Section 230.
8:58
SPEAKER_00: That's interesting.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: I want to come back to this algorithm.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, we also should remember that the iPhone wasn't out yet.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: You weren't walking around essentially with a billboard in your pocket.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: You had a flip phone if you were lucky.
9:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm not even sure BlackBerry had if there was a PDA in 1995.
9:16
SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
9:18
SPEAKER_00: The problem today,
9:21
SPEAKER_00: as you rightly say,
9:23
SPEAKER_00: whatever problems that existed, the algorithms absolutely exacerbated.
9:28
SPEAKER_00: We didn't anticipate that,
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SPEAKER_00: nor did we anticipate the magnitude of the attention economy
9:33
SPEAKER_00: that grew up around them.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Do you think 1996's law, in the absence of being built to handle this, it's time to revisit it?
9:45
SPEAKER_01: I do.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think that it can be revisited without eliminating 230.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: I think it can be revisited by modifying Section 230 as already has been done.
9:56
SPEAKER_01: For example,
9:57
SPEAKER_01: modifications have taken place that would criminalize certain sexual posts
10:03
SPEAKER_01: and content on social media.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Section 230 has been modified
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SPEAKER_01: to criminalize certain intellectual property violations,
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SPEAKER_01: sex trafficking, and things like this.
10:15
SPEAKER_01: It's been modified over the years,
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SPEAKER_01: which tells me that it can continue to be modified to take care of some of
10:22
SPEAKER_01: the new issues and challenges that we're having.
10:25
SPEAKER_01: Senator John Curtis of Utah and Mark Kelly of Arizona came up with
10:30
SPEAKER_01: the Algorithm Accountability Act.
10:33
SPEAKER_01: And what it tries to do is it's proposing that The platforms have to pay attention
10:39
SPEAKER_01: to what the algorithms are doing,
10:42
SPEAKER_01: are instructing behind the scenes, directly or indirectly, the users to do.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: And there needs to be some kind of due diligence,
10:51
SPEAKER_01: reasonable foreseeability factor in the end result.
10:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think it's a very reasonable bill that's being proposed,
10:59
SPEAKER_01: but it's not going to go anywhere with this particular Congress
11:03
SPEAKER_01: because this particular Congress is being motivated and controlled.
11:09
SPEAKER_01: And we're going to talk about this by, you know, big money, big Internet.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people with power and influence that don't want to see anything change.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: I actually want to push back as a reporter.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: And on Section 230, I'd like to see it repealed.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: And the reason why I'd like to see it repealed is because in this day and age,
11:35
SPEAKER_00: it would be hard for me to argue that That these media platforms are not just that,
11:42
SPEAKER_00: media platforms.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: They're called social media and they say, hey, you know, we're not responsible for the content.
11:49
SPEAKER_00: And yet, in the way things work practically.
11:53
SPEAKER_00: News dissemination is incredibly fragmented,
11:56
SPEAKER_00: and most people nowadays do turn to social media platforms for at least some
12:02
SPEAKER_00: of their news, some people for all of their news.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: And if you actually turn to these platforms and said,
12:10
SPEAKER_00: you know what, guys,
12:11
SPEAKER_00: you're going to have to moderate what's on your platform and make sure it's factual,
12:15
SPEAKER_00: I would say that a lot of the really awful stuff that's
12:19
SPEAKER_00: on these platforms would go away overnight because Because as somebody who's worked
12:24
SPEAKER_00: in a newsroom, it's bloody hard work.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: Fact-checking is really hard work.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: And it is not fast.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: It can't be an algorithm because you sit around and you know this being an attorney,
12:37
SPEAKER_00: you have to really look at things carefully and debate what can go out
12:41
SPEAKER_00: and what's not and what's defensible.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: So I wonder if you have an opinion on my On my radical opinion about it.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: It's not radical at all.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm a reasonable person.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: I totally get where you're coming from.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: The challenge with that and the pushback we're seeing is that
13:01
SPEAKER_01: if there is Unequivocal,
13:04
SPEAKER_01: unlimited liability on the providers for what's put on their platforms,
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SPEAKER_01: even if it's done without their consent,
13:13
SPEAKER_01: with their knowledge,
13:14
SPEAKER_01: with their permission, contrary to the terms of service agreements.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: What people are afraid of,
13:19
SPEAKER_01: and I think it's a legitimate concern,
13:22
SPEAKER_01: is that Legitimate, proper,
13:25
SPEAKER_01: maybe political content,
13:26
SPEAKER_01: controversial content as to whether or not somebody walked on the moon or
13:32
SPEAKER_01: the earth is flat or whatever it may be,
13:34
SPEAKER_01: benign content that may not be accurate,
13:37
SPEAKER_01: but people are interested in talking about it.
13:39
SPEAKER_01: What might happen is platforms might actually overregulate and prohibit The type
13:47
SPEAKER_01: of content that you and I are reading each and every day just to avoid being in
13:51
SPEAKER_01: that gray area.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: And so it's not, you know, a clear cut, we should do this or that.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's why I wanted to bring up originally,
14:00
SPEAKER_01: there are limitations that have been implemented into 230.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: Like I said,
14:06
SPEAKER_01: sex trafficking,
14:08
SPEAKER_01: cop Copyright and trademark claims,
14:11
SPEAKER_01: federal crimes,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: and federal wiretap law violations have all been brought into Section 230.
14:19
SPEAKER_01: I think I listed it in this morning's post that I shared on my Substack.
14:24
SPEAKER_01: Four suggestions that could be implemented,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: Meredith,
14:27
SPEAKER_01: into 230 that might help us move forward based upon modern algorithms and
14:35
SPEAKER_01: the modern approach to how most of us are using social on these things.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: Like you said, they weren't around when 230 was originally written.
14:43
SPEAKER_01: And the first thing First thing is we want to, there's four things, everybody.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: Protection stays for plain hosting.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: If you're hosting a static type of content like we talked about earlier,
14:56
SPEAKER_01: the way it used to be,
14:58
SPEAKER_01: and you're not manipulating or influencing anybody because of the algorithm,
15:03
SPEAKER_01: because of something other than the written word,
15:06
SPEAKER_01: the video,
15:07
SPEAKER_01: the audio presentation,
15:09
SPEAKER_01: there probably should be ongoing protection under So that companies can do business.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: Totally get that.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: The second factor,
15:17
SPEAKER_01: and we can go back and talk about these,
15:19
SPEAKER_01: Meredith, is paid promotion loses the shield.
15:22
SPEAKER_01: If you're being paid to promote something and that something harms the user.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: Reasonably can be seen.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: It's foreseeable that it's going to cause harm to the end user.
15:41
SPEAKER_01: Then there should be some type of liability scale associated with that.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Something that's untrue,
15:50
SPEAKER_01: that's false,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: that's harmful, that's illegal, should expose you as a platform to liability.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: And then the fourth element I talked about in more detail
15:59
SPEAKER_01: on my post this morning is product design.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Product design online digitally,
16:06
SPEAKER_01: in my opinion,
16:07
SPEAKER_01: should be subject to the same product Liability and product design issues in
16:12
SPEAKER_01: the real world that we have right now when it comes to designing an automobile,
16:16
SPEAKER_01: designing a phone, designing everything that we use each and every day.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: There's a well-established set of rules and regulations,
16:24
SPEAKER_01: both state and federal when it comes to product liability.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And once again,
16:28
SPEAKER_01: you can incorporate some of those existing tools into this four-step process
16:34
SPEAKER_01: to maybe pull back some of the protection or immunity
16:37
SPEAKER_01: that these companies are experiencing right now to move forward.
16:40
SPEAKER_01: But here's the problem.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: To do any of this stuff,
16:43
SPEAKER_01: to go the direction you want to go,
16:45
SPEAKER_01: to go the direction I'm suggesting, it takes Congress.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: It takes the cooperation of people in the House and people in
16:56
SPEAKER_01: the Senate working together to modify these rules and regulations.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of money through Citizens United,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: through lobbyists coming into Congress,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: especially when you look at when Trump was sworn into office.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: Remember everybody that was there that day on stage with him or in the audience?
17:15
SPEAKER_01: Every single big tech CEO or investor— That you want to
17:19
SPEAKER_00: hold accountable was sitting
17:20
SPEAKER_00: at his inauguration.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: They're right there, you know, writing checks.
17:24
SPEAKER_01: And so for all of this to change— We need independent Congress people to come
17:30
SPEAKER_01: and effectuate this change.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: And that's one reason I think that
17:34
SPEAKER_01: the algorithm act I referenced earlier is probably a good start.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of Congress people,
17:41
SPEAKER_01: a lot of senators could wrap their heads around that if it was ever put into place
17:46
SPEAKER_01: as a bill eventually for a vote after this year's midterm elections.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so here I am pushing back again.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Everything you say I agree with.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: But a couple of things.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: One, yes,
17:59
SPEAKER_00: there are regulations in place and there have been upgrades to 230,
18:03
SPEAKER_00: as you rightly said.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: But it doesn't stop people like the Tate brothers.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: You know,
18:08
SPEAKER_00: these things still go on on these platforms and can exist for years and do
18:15
SPEAKER_00: an enormous amount of harm without anybody being held accountable.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: The law is not real time.
18:23
SPEAKER_00: You know that better than I do.
18:25
SPEAKER_00: It can take a long time for a case to be brought and move through the courts.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: If you look at the case that Meta is just settling now, it took a long time to get there.
18:34
SPEAKER_00: There have been a lot of stabs to try and hold Meta accountable.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: And the fine,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: while it's great that it's happening,
18:42
SPEAKER_00: it's a line item essentially for Mark Zuckerberg and Meta.
18:46
SPEAKER_00: And so the cost of doing this is- So that's Meta and Google.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: It's Meta and Google just for the viewers.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: You're absolutely right and forgive my omission.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: But when it is a line item, it's kind of like in the old days with the cigarette companies.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: I mean, nobody thought that smoking cigarettes was good for you.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And yet it took 60 years or whatever of evidence before somebody said, you know what, maybe...
19:15
SPEAKER_00: We need to enact some legislation.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, a lot of harm was done.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: A lot of profits were made.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: And the cost of doing business,
19:24
SPEAKER_00: I don't really see much of a difference between somebody getting lung cancer
19:28
SPEAKER_00: or somebody taking their own life because of something awful on Lyme.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: So you're right
19:35
SPEAKER_00: about Congress.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: And I think that comes back to how do we start getting some
19:41
SPEAKER_00: of this lobbyist money out of these decision makings.
19:45
SPEAKER_00: But do you see any sort of sea change?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: Is there something that's changing societally that could push us in
19:53
SPEAKER_00: the direction we need to go to make everything safer?
19:56
SPEAKER_01: I do see that.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And let's go back to smoking cigarettes just for a second.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: I remember during my high school athletic days,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: going in for a physical and my family doctor would come in with
20:07
SPEAKER_01: a cigarette hanging out of his mouth, okay?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Giving me my physical.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: How you doing, Mitch?
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Feeling pretty good?
20:13
SPEAKER_01: You're good to go.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: And when I started practicing law, all the way back in 1986 is when I started.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm in my 40th year and I still love it.
20:23
SPEAKER_01: You couldn't sue big tobacco.
20:27
SPEAKER_01: If their product gave you cancer.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: I was around before you could successfully sue Big Tobacco.
20:34
SPEAKER_01: I remember the lawsuits.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: I remember the trial lawyers exchanging back then.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: I think it was DVDs or CD-ROMs with all of our players.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: The lawyers worked together to finally create change in the court system,
20:48
SPEAKER_01: which happened at the trial level with verdicts and with verdicts that held up
20:53
SPEAKER_01: on appeal that resulted in new laws being made both at the state level and
20:58
SPEAKER_01: the federal level.
20:59
SPEAKER_01: And so it took a long time.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: To your point, it took a long time, but change eventually happened.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: People started getting Becoming more aware of the hazards of smoking
21:09
SPEAKER_01: and how it can cause lung cancer,
21:11
SPEAKER_01: not only for you, but for people around you who didn't smoke, right?
21:15
SPEAKER_01: I think that made a big impact.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: So you're talking to somebody whose dad was one of the Winston cowboys on
21:22
SPEAKER_01: the Winston cigarette ads.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: Are you serious?
21:25
SPEAKER_01: True story.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:25
SPEAKER_01: But that's another story for another.
21:27
SPEAKER_01: I know I've got the pictures and everything.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So, but having said that,
21:31
SPEAKER_01: What I'm seeing with social media,
21:32
SPEAKER_01: what I'm seeing with the things that we're talking about today is I do feel like
21:36
SPEAKER_01: the consumer,
21:37
SPEAKER_01: especially the younger consumer,
21:41
SPEAKER_01: are more aware of the hazards and dangers and the downside to this media
21:48
SPEAKER_01: than maybe my generation when it first came around.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: And that also includes the algorithms and AI and things like this.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: In other words, they're doubling down on analog phones without an internet connection.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: All they can do is just text and call each other.
22:06
SPEAKER_01: They're not spending a lot of time on some of these different platforms.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: Now, don't get me wrong.
22:10
SPEAKER_01: Most people are doubling down on these platforms and building their businesses
22:14
SPEAKER_01: and creating new relationships.
22:15
SPEAKER_01: And I get all that.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: But to answer your question, I do see a new mindset.
22:20
SPEAKER_01: And with that new mindset, I think there will come change.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: And so the question is,
22:26
SPEAKER_01: what's the right balance to letting a company provide you and me with a platform?
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Let's just take Substack, for example.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: I want to be able to continue publishing on Substack.
22:40
SPEAKER_01: I want them to be in business right now.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: That's just me personally.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: They're not perfect.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: They let a lot of people on whose content I don't agree with.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: Totally get that.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: But we have First Amendment rights and we've got different issues involved,
22:56
SPEAKER_01: right, other than just 230.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: And so with all of that in mind,
23:01
SPEAKER_01: I want these platforms to be available so that we can continue to communicate,
23:05
SPEAKER_01: we can continue to inform,
23:07
SPEAKER_01: we can continue to share information with other people locally,
23:11
SPEAKER_01: nationally and globally.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: But I also feel like there needs to be a new set of updated rules and regulations
23:19
SPEAKER_01: under 230,
23:20
SPEAKER_01: or whatever you want to call it,
23:22
SPEAKER_01: that really does take the consumer's best interest and places at the same level.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: As these large corporations that are making record profits.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: So I don't have the answer to any of that, but I would like to see that happen.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: So I'm sympathetic and understanding as to where you're coming from.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: But without these platforms right now,
23:44
SPEAKER_01: you and I would not have met and we wouldn't be having this show.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: No, and I don't disagree with that.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think the platforms need to close down.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: I want to just quickly focus on the First Amendment because you touched on it.
24:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm not a lawyer,
24:01
SPEAKER_00: but my understanding of the First Amendment is that our founders really thought
24:06
SPEAKER_00: that freedom of the press, the media in particular, was a serious check and balance.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: And without it, you don't have democracy.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: And I think if you talk to people who are really experienced in the media and
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And I've got a podcast coming out next week with John Williams,
24:26
SPEAKER_00: who was managing editor at ABC News and then BBC News, and he rebuilt RT in Ireland.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: He's about as veteran a journalist as I know.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: And he says this,
24:36
SPEAKER_00: and he says it's one of the wonderful exports that America has given the world
24:42
SPEAKER_00: in terms of freedom of the press and really being foundational to a democracy.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: These platforms can be wonderful.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: As you said, you and I met.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: I read your stuff all the time.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: It's super informative.
24:55
SPEAKER_00: I learn a lot from it.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of fantastic writers on the platform.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: But misinformation is antithetical to a functioning democracy.
25:05
SPEAKER_00: So rather than eradicate it, I think it needs to be policed.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm worried about using that word, but it needs more than moderation.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: Is there a way to do that without making people overly liable,
25:24
SPEAKER_00: as you said, to the point where they're at risk constantly being sued?
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Because I do think that when people cite freedom of the press,
25:34
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's Or freedom of speech.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it gives anybody a right to essentially be a bad actor or to be
25:41
SPEAKER_00: a stenographer for a bad actor.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: Like,
25:44
SPEAKER_00: I think that there's an implication there that it should be factual to the best
25:49
SPEAKER_00: of your ability.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's what we're seeing right now.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Unless it's comedy or sarcasm or a fantasy piece.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: Andy Warwick.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: Right?
25:59
SPEAKER_01: And we're on the same page,
26:01
SPEAKER_01: but As you well know, it comes down to how do we manage all of this?
26:07
SPEAKER_01: And how do we make sure that what we're doing is the right and ethical thing to do?
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm with you.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: The First Amendment,
26:15
SPEAKER_01: you know, maybe indirectly looking back, it wasn't the reason I became a lawyer.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: I became a lawyer to take on the bad guys.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: And I always wanted to be a trial lawyer.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: There's a whole nother show relating to that.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: But fast forward to today...
26:27
SPEAKER_01: That's why you see me doing what I'm doing because I'm interested
26:31
SPEAKER_01: in asserting my First Amendment rights to share my objective,
26:36
SPEAKER_01: good faith thoughts on breaking political news stories so that I can educate
26:41
SPEAKER_01: and inform the consumer.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: That's what I want to do.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: Now, last night when I was laying in bed trying to fall asleep,
26:48
SPEAKER_01: I was scrolling on a platform watching comedians on stage.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: And what they were talking about,
26:56
SPEAKER_01: moon landings, flat earth, things that had nothing to do with facts or reality.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: I was enjoying the comedy that I was hearing from these comedians.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: So I think we can both agree that's probably okay, right, to talk about on these platforms.
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't think there's a moment where you didn't realize that it was satire or comedy.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, it was there.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: So what I'm getting at is,
27:20
SPEAKER_01: those are two examples where we can both agree on, hey, totally cool.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: Everyone should be able to watch that content or create that content if they want to.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: But then you get into the gray areas.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's like, who draws the line on those gray areas?
27:35
SPEAKER_01: Let me take a step back because I don't think we're ever going to have an answer to
27:39
SPEAKER_01: that question.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: I mean...
27:41
SPEAKER_01: How do you regulate that and decide what's appropriate
27:44
SPEAKER_00: content?
27:45
SPEAKER_00: That is soul-destroying to me.
27:47
SPEAKER_01: Hear me out for a second, because there might be a solution.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: And what I'm getting at is the courts have been struggling that.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: Our society has been struggling with Yeah.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: You shouldn't have to be afraid to report either one of those versions of the story.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: They're both telling the same story.
28:28
SPEAKER_01: One's being presented by the New York Times,
28:29
SPEAKER_01: the other one's by the Wall Street Journal or the Washington Post,
28:32
SPEAKER_01: and you can rely reasonably upon that content.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: So you shouldn't be penalized in a civil action or a criminal lawsuit for talking
28:40
SPEAKER_01: about these cases.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: But here's what I think is going to happen.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: What I think is going to happen is with artificial intelligence,
28:45
SPEAKER_01: with the algorithms,
28:46
SPEAKER_01: I think you and I are going to be able to probably within two years,
28:50
SPEAKER_01: click a button on Substack.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: And that button is going to be personalized towards what you tell it to do
28:57
SPEAKER_01: and what I tell it to do so that it filters that type of content away from us
29:04
SPEAKER_01: or away from the communities that we're building today.
29:07
SPEAKER_01: Based upon how we're training,
29:09
SPEAKER_01: directing, and instructing the algorithm to do what we want it to do.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: So right now, we can pick and choose our communities.
29:17
SPEAKER_01: We can put in keywords to avoid.
29:19
SPEAKER_01: When it comes to trolls, we can block and delete, which I do all the time.
29:23
SPEAKER_01: But I think what we're going to see is AI
29:26
SPEAKER_01: and algorithms actually helping us fix some of the problems
29:31
SPEAKER_01: that you just brought up.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: And so there we go.
29:34
SPEAKER_01: Now we've got AI and algorithms fixing some of the problems that I talked
29:39
SPEAKER_01: about were problems 15 minutes ago.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: So this is a very dynamic.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're asking them to fix the problems that they broke in the first place.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: And I just have a kind of visceral reaction about that.
29:54
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the pangram now on Substack that will scan and say whether
30:01
SPEAKER_00: or not your piece is human-ridden.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm not worried by that because my pieces are human written,
30:06
SPEAKER_00: but I resent it because the only reason that they're able
30:10
SPEAKER_00: to do what they do is they've been scraping the information that people like me
30:14
SPEAKER_00: and you have been writing for 25, 30 years on the internet.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: And I sort of feel like at some point,
30:23
SPEAKER_00: the wings have to be clipped a little bit more and we can't keep Going back to
30:29
SPEAKER_00: the people that create the problem to say,
30:31
SPEAKER_00: oh, okay, well, now you can offer a solution.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure that's not what you mean.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: So explain to me what you mean.
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that artificial intelligence,
30:40
SPEAKER_01: you know,
30:41
SPEAKER_01: it's going to cause a lot of problems in the world,
30:43
SPEAKER_01: but I think it's also going to provide a lot of solutions when it's used
30:47
SPEAKER_01: a certain way, right?
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Whether it's in medicine, health, you know, and I don't know what's good or bad.
30:52
SPEAKER_01: It's here, right?
30:53
SPEAKER_00: No, health and science are great.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: And when I keynoted at different lawyer events, I just got back from Rhode Island.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: I was the opening keynote there.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: And I was talking about a room of about 800 lawyers and judges,
31:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
31:06
SPEAKER_01: combining human intelligence with artificial intelligence to deliver a better
31:11
SPEAKER_01: and faster and more accurate result for the client that saves them money and
31:16
SPEAKER_01: And frankly,
31:17
SPEAKER_01: saves the lawyer or law firm time so you can improve the quality of your life.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: You can spend more time with your family.
31:23
SPEAKER_01: Instead of 20 hours on a brief, you can do it in two hours, have a better quality product.
31:28
SPEAKER_01: The client's happy because you didn't bill them for 20 hours.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: And there are all kinds of issues with that.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: The train is here and it's left the station when it comes to artificial intelligence.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: And so the question is,
31:40
SPEAKER_01: how can we leverage that to Fix some of the problems that we've already talked
31:45
SPEAKER_01: about.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: The challenge I have,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: Meredith,
31:47
SPEAKER_01: is the people that are being put into place right now to help us monitor,
31:52
SPEAKER_01: manage, and fix these problems.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not going to use profanity on your show, It's an S show right now.
32:00
SPEAKER_01: It's our show.
32:01
SPEAKER_00: It's our show.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: It's just out of control.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: And when you look at what Brendan Carr and the FCC are doing with respect
32:09
SPEAKER_01: to deregulating and you pay X amount of dollars and we're going
32:15
SPEAKER_01: to let your late night talk show exist or not exist and the people
32:19
SPEAKER_01: that are running these shows – John Mayer had a song talking about,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: oh gosh, now I've just brought it up and I should be able to close this thought.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: But those that control the news or the message are the ones that control what we're doing.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: And that's what's happening right now with CAR and the FCC is if we're relying upon news.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: Even if it's accurate news,
32:44
SPEAKER_01: the next question is, what news are we watching and digesting and listening to?
32:49
SPEAKER_01: Because the earlier part of our conversation was what you're posting,
32:52
SPEAKER_01: what I'm posting, what our friends are posting.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: Why is it okay for someone in their kitchen to be posting a live video of a cooking recipe?
33:01
SPEAKER_01: The rules and regulations that protect that person are the same rules
33:04
SPEAKER_01: and regulations that protect Google.
33:07
SPEAKER_01: And when it comes to Section 230.
33:09
SPEAKER_01: So we don't want to take the rights away from mom in the kitchen or dad in
33:13
SPEAKER_01: the kitchen baking a new recipe and sharing it on TikTok.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: Because if we take that right and remedy away, same thing happens with Google.
33:22
SPEAKER_01: We got to be careful about that.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: But what we need to do is make sure the big boys and the big girls who are in charge
33:29
SPEAKER_01: of the rules and regulations of monitoring all this at the FCC are the right people
33:34
SPEAKER_01: in place doing the right thing.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: And I think what America doesn't realize right now People are being put into place
33:41
SPEAKER_01: that are already dictating what you're reading,
33:46
SPEAKER_01: what you're hearing on major news networks.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: What we're seeing each and every night on
33:51
SPEAKER_01: the evening news generally isn't what polls are showing that average Americans care
33:59
SPEAKER_01: about when it comes to The price of goods or when it comes to politics,
34:04
SPEAKER_01: when it comes to religion,
34:05
SPEAKER_01: whatever the issue may be,
34:07
SPEAKER_01: they're feeding us and conditioning us as to what we think is,
34:12
SPEAKER_01: they think is important so that we think that it's important.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: And that's not the case.
34:17
SPEAKER_01: And I think the big thing we're seeing right now along these lines is,
34:21
SPEAKER_01: to your point, let me ask you a question.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: Is it okay for the President of the United States to call Democrats communists?
34:30
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's factually incorrect.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: It's factually incorrect.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I had this conversation with John because I reported a story last year when
34:39
SPEAKER_00: that awful bill passed.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: And I did an assessment on the impact on health care cuts.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: And as part of my reporting, I called local legislators.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: I live in Virginia.
34:51
SPEAKER_00: I called local legislators, both Democrat and Republican.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: And the Republican legislators I called said there will be no changes
34:58
SPEAKER_00: to Local hospitals, rural healthcare, Medicaid.
35:04
SPEAKER_01: Are you talking about the big bill?
35:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And it was so factually inaccurate, I didn't put the quotes in my story.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: And my editor and I came to blows about it, as writers and editors do.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: And he said, you got to put it in there, Meredith.
35:20
SPEAKER_00: And I said, I'm sorry, but I'm not a stenographer for a bad actor.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm not, I cannot put it in.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: I asked John Williams the other day when I was interviewing him.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: What would you have done if you were my editor?
35:31
SPEAKER_00: He said,
35:31
SPEAKER_00: you know,
35:31
SPEAKER_00: Meredith,
35:32
SPEAKER_00: I probably would have made you include it,
35:34
SPEAKER_00: but I would have insisted that you explain that it was a lie.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: And anyway, it got us to talking.
35:41
SPEAKER_00: I will tell you, I grew up in the CBS newsroom in New York.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: My father was a local anchor for WCBS in New York.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: And when I was growing up,
35:50
SPEAKER_00: as I'm sure when you were growing up, there were three Main channels.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: And people used to say to me all the time, oh, dear,
35:56
SPEAKER_00: you know, we love your dad, but we don't watch CBS News because it's so liberal.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: And I guess, you know, in those days, CBS was considered liberal.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: By today's standards, that's crazy.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: But my argument is when you went to a dinner party
36:17
SPEAKER_00: Those days, you didn't arrive with a different set of facts.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: You all knew what happened that day.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: And you debated the validity of a certain action or a certain policy.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: You took different sides about coverage of a conflict.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: But you didn't start out without the same facts.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what,
36:40
SPEAKER_00: when you talk about Brendan Carr and the FCC,
36:42
SPEAKER_00: and a lot's going on there, and I'd like you to talk about it.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: But, you know,
36:46
SPEAKER_00: we've got a pay-to-play platform now where if the money is there and the support
36:52
SPEAKER_00: for this administration is there, it's the coin-operated presidency.
36:57
SPEAKER_00: And Larry Ellison has managed to,
36:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: they're taking over Warner Brothers and CBS and Paramount and, you know, CNN.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: And when you have that and you have such obvious...
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Polarization with ownership of these networks, it is going to filter down to the information.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: That is not something I grew up with, and I don't think you did either.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: So that's not a Section 230 thing necessarily.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: What is that?
37:34
SPEAKER_00: And how can we fix it?
37:36
SPEAKER_01: So a couple of quick thoughts.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: You know,
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Brendan Carr's approach to Section 230 is he actually wants to have
37:45
SPEAKER_01: the FCC punish companies for taking content down.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
37:51
SPEAKER_01: Treating removals of content as being the punishable thing.
37:58
SPEAKER_01: So if you've got a lot of false information on these platforms,
38:03
SPEAKER_01: that these platforms in good faith start taking down under this new FCC,
38:08
SPEAKER_01: they can be punished for it.
38:09
SPEAKER_01: So that doesn't help the problem.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: It's going to make it worse.
38:13
SPEAKER_01: Back in the day when you and I were growing up,
38:16
SPEAKER_01: as you described, we were getting our news and then having conversations about it.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Politics did come into it as to who was right or wrong.
38:26
SPEAKER_01: I remember back in the Vietnam War,
38:28
SPEAKER_01: sitting at my parents' kitchen table,
38:31
SPEAKER_01: a neighbor came over,
38:32
SPEAKER_01: her son had just been killed in Vietnam,
38:34
SPEAKER_01: and all of us crying together and listening to the different takes on whether
38:39
SPEAKER_01: or not we should be in Vietnam.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: We had conversations about it and protests about it and things like that.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: The reason I brought up the communist example is because we are seeing that this month.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: This is the latest talking point, right?
38:54
SPEAKER_01: And so, obviously, Republicans aren't communists.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: Democrats aren't communists.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: That's a whole other conversation for another time.
39:02
SPEAKER_01: But when you have the 34-time convicted felon
39:07
SPEAKER_01: and adjudicated sexual assailant sitting in the Oval Office using this terminology
39:14
SPEAKER_01: and it's getting shared around the world in real time 24-7 –
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Should the platforms allow that to happen?
39:21
SPEAKER_01: Should they take it down?
39:22
SPEAKER_01: Should they not use the C word, communist, when reporting the news?
39:27
SPEAKER_01: Or should they, like you said, have the reporter then follow up?
39:31
SPEAKER_01: There's no evidence to suggest that the Democratic Party is communist just
39:35
SPEAKER_01: because they want to have streets to drive on,
39:38
SPEAKER_01: schools to send their kids to,
39:40
SPEAKER_01: and reasonably priced groceries when they go shopping in the evening after work.
39:44
SPEAKER_01: That doesn't make you a communist.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: And so it's one of these things where I think,
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Circling back to fix all of this, independent journalism.
39:54
SPEAKER_01: What you and I are seeing on Substack right now is we're seeing a lot of people
39:58
SPEAKER_01: that had huge platforms on major networks that don't want to be there anymore.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: Some were asked to leave.
40:05
SPEAKER_01: Some were fired.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Some decided on their own, this isn't for me anymore.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't want anything to do with what's going on at this network.
40:14
SPEAKER_01: And they're building out these new avenues for us to digest the facts and the news
40:21
SPEAKER_01: and, frankly, to build relationships.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: And so maybe moving forward,
40:26
SPEAKER_01: instead of fixing all of these existing problems,
40:29
SPEAKER_01: maybe there'll be a new medium,
40:31
SPEAKER_01: a new way that most consumers will start digesting this information.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: Now, I don't know if that's the case, but I'll tell you right now, and we're talking about...
40:42
SPEAKER_01: I think you're right.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: But I know my kids, you know, 26 and 31, they don't watch TV.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: Okay, they're digesting their content,
40:53
SPEAKER_01: they're watching their movies on streaming channels and everything else.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: They're actually pretty selective about how they're using their phones
41:01
SPEAKER_01: and their tablets, but they're not watching the evening news.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: So maybe there's going to be a shift in society.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Every time there's a problem,
41:09
SPEAKER_01: I think what we see is when there's a problem, that means there's a solution.
41:13
SPEAKER_01: Somebody needs to find the solution.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: A lot of my successful business clients that have started multiple companies,
41:20
SPEAKER_01: the ones that are successful are the ones that are solving a problem.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: You twice have told me, Respectfully and politely, and I love the back and forth.
41:29
SPEAKER_01: Hey, Mitch, let me push back a little bit on that because you see a problem.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, if we can use this technology and these new platforms to help fix
41:37
SPEAKER_01: that problem moving forward.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's a long-term fix.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: It's not next year.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: It's not going to be in three years.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: But over time, if I want to get information, I come to your platform on Substack.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: I listen to your interviews.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm listening to your podcast because that is what I'm doing with all of our friends
41:55
SPEAKER_01: on Substack.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's the direction we need to go in order to effectuate change.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: That plus...
42:04
SPEAKER_01: Eliminating Citizens United, because that's the foundation to all of these problems right now.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: All of it.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's absolutely.
42:12
SPEAKER_00: I will say that And these two truths I hold at the same time.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: This is a golden age of journalism because there are opportunities in
42:26
SPEAKER_00: so many different areas to do the news.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: But it has also never been more difficult to make a living as a journalist.
42:35
SPEAKER_00: I do not make a living as a journalist.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you that for the average person on Substack,
42:43
SPEAKER_00: who might prioritize paying for Tina Brown or Katie Couric or Jim Acosta
42:48
SPEAKER_00: because they're literally household names.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: They're not necessarily going to pay for my work.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: And I would argue that because,
42:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've read Tina Brown, I would follow to the ends of the earth.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: I think she's wonderful.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: But Jim Acosta onSubstack Is very opinionated.
43:08
SPEAKER_00: And what I say to people is, I think he's a great reporter.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: I watched him on CNN.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: But make no mistake,
43:15
SPEAKER_00: all of us operating without a newsroom,
43:18
SPEAKER_00: without a legal department,
43:20
SPEAKER_00: without editors, without production managers and news managers, we...
43:27
SPEAKER_00: Are arguably opinion and the burden is on us to be disciplined about the facts.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that takes time.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: And if you've already been successful, you can afford to do that.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: You probably have a production team.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: I know that I spend hours and hours and hours fact checking the things
43:49
SPEAKER_00: that that's just my background and training.
43:51
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to put out opinions.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: But it is very, very difficult.
43:56
SPEAKER_00: So what happens is you're going to end up,
43:58
SPEAKER_00: the people who are actually making a lot of money now,
44:02
SPEAKER_00: if you take away the really established old time journalists, are opinion people.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: If you look at who has hundreds of thousands of followers on Substack and people
44:13
SPEAKER_00: who pay them, it's a lot of drivel.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of people who I mean,
44:18
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry to say it,
44:19
SPEAKER_00: and maybe it'll offend some people,
44:20
SPEAKER_00: but it's just a lot of opinion or people who aggregate other people's news.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: So I think that you get what you pay for,
44:29
SPEAKER_00: whether that's the quality of legal representation you have or the quality of
44:34
SPEAKER_00: the news that you're reading.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: One thing I will say for anybody listening to this is you're going to be missing us
44:40
SPEAKER_00: when we're gone because- Will they?
44:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they will.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Because at the end of the day,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: you make decisions about your life based on the quality of
44:56
SPEAKER_00: the information that's been given to you.
44:58
SPEAKER_00: And if you are digesting dross, then you're going to make some really rubbish decisions.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: And it has been proven in places where...
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Local newsrooms have been gutted.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: But in places where nonprofit has come in and local news has been revitalized, taxes are lower.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Civic engagement is higher.
45:19
SPEAKER_00: Voter turnout is higher.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: There's less polarization in communities.
45:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is all factual.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: So it may take you a little while to realize that you miss me when I'm gone,
45:29
SPEAKER_00: but you're going to miss me when I'm gone.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: So let me...
45:35
SPEAKER_01: Let me double down on a couple of things that you said.
45:37
SPEAKER_01: And when it comes to dribble right now,
45:40
SPEAKER_01: the dribble that I'm seeing is coming from the White House press pool.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: And it's coming from reporters on Air Force One that don't have the balls to ask
45:50
SPEAKER_01: the right questions or the right follow-up questions or are totally comfortable,
45:55
SPEAKER_01: apparently,
45:55
SPEAKER_01: with this guy insulting their coworkers,
45:59
SPEAKER_01: their fellow reporters and fellow journalists.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: And I've got friends that are in there, okay?
46:03
SPEAKER_01: I've got friends that are there.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: You see them on television every single night.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: And for the life of me,
46:08
SPEAKER_01: and this is for them as it is as much for you and anybody else that's watching live
46:13
SPEAKER_01: or recorded,
46:15
SPEAKER_01: This is your moment in history to ask the damn question,
46:18
SPEAKER_01: to hold them accountable, to plan.
46:20
SPEAKER_00: You're absolutely right.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: This is the moment in history
46:22
SPEAKER_01: because right now all you're doing is you're amplifying
46:27
SPEAKER_01: the misinformation that's coming out of this guy's mouth and out of
46:30
SPEAKER_01: the White House every single day.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: So let me first say that and then take a step back and talk a little bit
46:37
SPEAKER_01: about journalists making money.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: Wait, before you go on to the money angle, I want to wholeheartedly agree with you about that.
46:44
SPEAKER_00: And it's one of the things that John Williamson and I spoke about.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: And I titled my episode Holding the Line.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: The courage is absent right now in newsrooms.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: And a courage, I've reported on war, I've been in combat zones before.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: That's what I wanted to ask you about.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, in Eastern Congo, we can talk about that another time.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: But I will tell you that the courage to report the truth is every bit as important,
47:08
SPEAKER_00: if not more so, than the courage to stand in a war zone.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: And we are not seeing that.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: That is a failing.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: Also, John and I were talking about the correspondence dinner.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: I would get up and leave a room where my colleagues were being insulted like that.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have attended in the first place.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: But I would never stand in a press conference and allow somebody to call one
47:29
SPEAKER_00: of my colleagues, a fat pig, A useless reporter.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the reason I love this job,
47:37
SPEAKER_00: despite the fact that it pays nothing,
47:39
SPEAKER_00: it is the best job in the whole world,
47:42
SPEAKER_00: is for the camaraderie and the collegiality of it.
47:46
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you can compete to scoop the story,
47:48
SPEAKER_00: but at the end of the day, you are one bunch in a newsroom.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: I could not agree with you more.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: So now over to you about the money.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: If you can solve that problem, Mitch, you're my hero.
47:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, maybe I can.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: But here's what I have to say about that is I also understand the dynamic
48:05
SPEAKER_01: of people wanting not to lose their job.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: They've got a mortgage.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: They've got a family they're helping take care of.
48:11
SPEAKER_01: And I understand the dynamics involved.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: I actually do think, though,
48:15
SPEAKER_01: there is a Woodward and Bernstein relationship I think it's going to happen
48:20
SPEAKER_01: from what I'm hearing,
48:21
SPEAKER_01: but be that as it may,
48:21
SPEAKER_01: I get the dynamics, but yeah, I wouldn't have shown up at that dinner either.
48:44
SPEAKER_01: Are you kidding me?
48:44
SPEAKER_01: This is just rubbing elbows, laughing, toasting each other.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: I saw friends of mine in there doing things with people who,
48:53
SPEAKER_01: if I was in the same room, just so you know, I'd probably punch them in the face.
48:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm not recommending anybody hit anybody, but that's just me.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: I just am that upset about what's going on.
49:03
SPEAKER_01: As far as earning a living,
49:05
SPEAKER_01: when I talk to lawyers, AI is completely changing the legal profession.
49:12
SPEAKER_01: And whether it's good or bad, you know, we don't need to talk about that, but it's changing.
49:16
SPEAKER_01: It's changing everything.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: And what I don't want to see people doing is not appreciating that change
49:24
SPEAKER_01: and modifying their behavior and their activities and their plans
49:28
SPEAKER_01: to accommodate those changes because it's here.
49:32
SPEAKER_01: And so if things are happening for whatever reason that are beyond your control,
49:38
SPEAKER_01: and for me,
49:38
SPEAKER_01: being a lawyer,
49:39
SPEAKER_01: AI is going to be You know,
49:41
SPEAKER_01: replacing lawyers and reducing what we charge our clients.
49:46
SPEAKER_01: And to me, it opens up a lot of new opportunities.
49:49
SPEAKER_01: That's not what this show is all about.
49:52
SPEAKER_01: My thought process is, okay,
49:54
SPEAKER_01: if I was a journalist right now,
49:56
SPEAKER_01: what could I be doing that's not happening in the Oval Office or
50:02
SPEAKER_01: on Air Force One like we talked about?
50:05
SPEAKER_01: Where can I be sharing the actual inside story,
50:08
SPEAKER_01: that interview that's not happening,
50:10
SPEAKER_01: that additional comment or story that nobody's reporting on right now?
50:15
SPEAKER_01: What platforms can I do this on?
50:18
SPEAKER_01: Who can I partner with to amplify that communication?
50:24
SPEAKER_01: Midas Touch does a great job of getting information.
50:28
SPEAKER_01: The right people with the right communities together to really focus on
50:34
SPEAKER_01: a particular point of view when it comes to the news.
50:38
SPEAKER_01: Whether you agree or disagree with them,
50:40
SPEAKER_01: that business model is working in the private sector, independent journalism.
50:46
SPEAKER_01: And I think we're just seeing it start.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, ProPublica is fantastic.
50:53
SPEAKER_01: I've got friends that,
50:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:55
SPEAKER_01: I was around during the early days of social media and I used to represent a bunch
50:59
SPEAKER_01: of social media influencers.
51:01
SPEAKER_01: I actually had a pretty good following and still do on most of the platforms.
51:06
SPEAKER_01: And I've watched people start million dollar companies with just this.
51:12
SPEAKER_01: With a business deal on the back of a napkin at a convention,
51:15
SPEAKER_01: six months later, amazing things are happening.
51:19
SPEAKER_01: And this was a business model that didn't exist when I was 21 or when I was 31, when I was 41.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so with new technology and new social dynamics comes new opportunities.
51:32
SPEAKER_01: And the question is, who is going to be the and person?
51:36
SPEAKER_01: And we talked about this before we went live.
51:38
SPEAKER_01: I want to share and report on what's happening today.
51:41
SPEAKER_01: And I want to build a community that feels the same way that I do.
51:45
SPEAKER_01: And I want to do it in a way that's cost effective.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: And I want to do it in a way where I can make a living as opposed to But it's too much work.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: But nobody's going to watch me.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know which platform to be on.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: But it's going to take time and I'm never going to make any money.
52:01
SPEAKER_01: You can go down either path.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: And with all of the startups that I've helped over the years,
52:07
SPEAKER_01: 200 plus startups,
52:08
SPEAKER_01: every single successful startup I've helped and been involved
52:11
SPEAKER_01: with had three things going for it.
52:14
SPEAKER_01: The founders were the and people.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: They consistently on a daily basis and let's move forward.
52:20
SPEAKER_01: And I told you,
52:21
SPEAKER_01: I watched an interview that reminded me of this just recently because it's
52:25
SPEAKER_01: so powerful.
52:26
SPEAKER_01: They also had good legal counsel and they had a good CPA.
52:30
SPEAKER_01: And with those three elements, they were able to build in a good product and service.
52:34
SPEAKER_01: And so what they did is they built these things out.
52:37
SPEAKER_01: So I would suggest whatever you're doing for a living,
52:40
SPEAKER_01: Whether you're selling donuts on the corner donut shop or you're a lawyer or
52:46
SPEAKER_01: a journalist,
52:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:47
SPEAKER_01: think about what can I do and how can I do this and this and this and this.
52:52
SPEAKER_01: And maybe do a deep dive using, you know, ChatGPT or Claude, something like that.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: One of your favorite AIs.
53:00
SPEAKER_01: Use the slash goal.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: Filter system,
53:03
SPEAKER_01: if you're not familiar with that,
53:04
SPEAKER_01: it really helps amplify what you're doing,
53:07
SPEAKER_01: forward slash goal,
53:09
SPEAKER_01: and then you type in your prompt,
53:10
SPEAKER_01: your question,
53:11
SPEAKER_01: your problem,
53:11
SPEAKER_01: your challenge,
53:13
SPEAKER_01: and it lays it all out in a way that most people aren't really maximizing AI to do.
53:19
SPEAKER_01: I think what you'll see,
53:20
SPEAKER_01: and see I just said it,
53:22
SPEAKER_01: and I think what you'll find are some new alternatives,
53:25
SPEAKER_01: some new things you haven't thought of as to how you want to accomplish your goals.
53:31
SPEAKER_01: I know lawyers need to really double down and do the things that I just shared
53:34
SPEAKER_01: with you if they want to stay in business.
53:37
SPEAKER_01: But I think the same approach applies to journalists.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: It applies to doctors.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: It applies to accountants.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: It applies to anything.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: And this is just an interesting time where I don't want to come across
53:52
SPEAKER_01: on my subject like I'm complaining about situations.
53:56
SPEAKER_01: What I'm trying to do is educate and inform so that we can have an informed...
54:01
SPEAKER_00: I think you and I are on the same page there.
54:03
SPEAKER_00: And it's like a fine line.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: Like sometimes I'll write something and I'll think to myself...
54:07
SPEAKER_01: Wow, I don't want to come across like I'm complaining.
54:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, I'm pissed off or yeah, this is BS.
54:14
SPEAKER_01: But what I want to do is I want the reader to feel empowered and
54:18
SPEAKER_01: to give themselves permission to have that conversation at the dinner table or
54:23
SPEAKER_01: with their next door navel or to register to vote and then vote.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, we met because we disagreed about something and we kind of went offline.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, it was something you posted on On something being undercovered.
54:37
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't know that it's undercover.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, we started talking about Section 230.
54:43
SPEAKER_00: And that's how we took that offline to a DM.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: And we decided that we were going to have a conversation.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: I hear everything you're saying.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: I think that the numbers in terms of journalism,
54:55
SPEAKER_00: there's a reason why you used to be able to have a career in It's expensive
55:02
SPEAKER_00: to produce journalism.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: Investigations are expensive.
55:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm in the middle of a four-month investigation on rural broadband,
55:11
SPEAKER_00: and the only reason that I can do that story,
55:13
SPEAKER_00: which I will bring to my followers and readers here,
55:15
SPEAKER_00: it's really fascinating, is because I have a newsroom that backs me.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: And when I think about a lot of the stories that I've done over
55:24
SPEAKER_00: the years – How much I've benefited.
55:26
SPEAKER_00: And I'm so lucky.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I work with a wonderful editor now who was editor of the Sydney Morning Herald.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: He's a Pulitzer Prize-winning war reporter.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: And when I have questions and I'm working on a story,
55:41
SPEAKER_00: it's Paul that is going through line by line.
55:44
SPEAKER_00: It's a slightly different dynamic.
55:45
SPEAKER_00: I agree with your and.
55:46
SPEAKER_00: I'm an and girl, not a but girl.
55:49
SPEAKER_00: So I get that.
55:50
SPEAKER_00: But I want to get back on topic and I want to wrap up with you talking
55:54
SPEAKER_00: about what all these wonderful people who are giving us their time need
55:59
SPEAKER_00: to be thinking about as we head to the midterms and all the things
56:04
SPEAKER_00: that you've talked about and all the landmines that get in our way in terms
56:08
SPEAKER_00: of really understanding what's happening out there, what the truth is.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
56:14
SPEAKER_00: I loved you had a post this morning about which I reposted with the headline
56:18
SPEAKER_00: that just said facts about nobody can stop you voting.
56:22
SPEAKER_00: I want you to talk.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
56:24
SPEAKER_00: To all of us about what we need to be aware of as we head to possibly
56:30
SPEAKER_00: the most important midterm of my life, certainly.
56:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: My voting life.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: This is it.
56:36
SPEAKER_01: This is the most important election I think you and I have experienced on top of the grass.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: Look, let's keep it simple.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: First of all, you don't need to try to figure out everything.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: All you need to do is register and vote.
56:50
SPEAKER_01: You need to talk to three or four family members or friends, register and vote.
56:54
SPEAKER_01: The elections are going to happen.
56:57
SPEAKER_01: And if you look at what Mark Elias talks about,
56:59
SPEAKER_01: and I follow Mark's work closely,
57:02
SPEAKER_01: there may or may not be uniformed individuals or ICE agents at some polling centers.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: If that's the case, it's going to be the exception.
57:12
SPEAKER_01: It gets complicated, but the challenge here has to do with the paperwork, not physically voting.
57:18
SPEAKER_01: And the way we...
57:20
SPEAKER_01: If you feel like I do,
57:21
SPEAKER_01: I guess Meredith,
57:22
SPEAKER_01: and you want to change the majority in Congress,
57:25
SPEAKER_01: just think to yourself,
57:27
SPEAKER_01: all I need to do is vote and get my friends and family to vote too.
57:31
SPEAKER_01: That's what people need to understand.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: The dialogue out there,
57:35
SPEAKER_01: and it's in my article that I shared,
57:37
SPEAKER_01: it's actually a note I shared on my Substack,
57:40
SPEAKER_01: Meredith, that shared two prior articles I wrote.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: It talks about how Trump or any other president doesn't have the right
57:49
SPEAKER_01: to unilaterally cancel the elections.
57:51
SPEAKER_01: And it explains all the reasons why that's the case.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: And it talks about how we had elections during the Civil War,
57:58
SPEAKER_01: World War I,
57:59
SPEAKER_01: World War II,
58:01
SPEAKER_01: the Korean War,
58:02
SPEAKER_01: Vietnam War, each war thereafter and each civil dispute that took place.
58:08
SPEAKER_01: And what's happening is you're being distracted.
58:13
SPEAKER_01: They're trying to get you to focus on Having that mindset
58:17
SPEAKER_01: where it just doesn't matter, there's nothing you can do.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: That's the goal here.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: And I think,
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Meredith,
58:22
SPEAKER_01: if people understand that their vote does matter,
58:26
SPEAKER_01: And as we've been doing in the courts,
58:29
SPEAKER_01: the lawyers and the judges have been holding serve in the courts.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: Trump's 0 in 21 when it comes to producing the voter rolls and things like this.
58:38
SPEAKER_01: So important to say that.
58:39
SPEAKER_01: That's 21 losses, people.
58:40
SPEAKER_01: That's a zero wins.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you,
58:43
SPEAKER_01: trust me when I say this,
58:45
SPEAKER_01: if you show up and vote, We can start to turn this ship around.
58:50
SPEAKER_01: Meredith,
58:50
SPEAKER_01: real quick,
58:51
SPEAKER_01: before you run on what can journalists do,
58:55
SPEAKER_01: you may have seen and or reach out to me afterwards about
58:59
SPEAKER_01: the two big blockbuster movies in Hollywood,
59:02
SPEAKER_01: because I'm just down the street from Hollywood,
59:05
SPEAKER_01: who were produced, directed, and acted in by a couple of YouTubers, okay?
59:13
SPEAKER_01: And so over the last couple of months, everybody, Spending just $3, $5, $10, $15 million.
59:22
SPEAKER_01: There were a couple of movies out.
59:23
SPEAKER_01: I think one was called Back, what was it called?
59:27
SPEAKER_01: Back Room, and I can't think of the other name.
59:29
SPEAKER_01: But these were movies that were produced in a way that have never been produced
59:34
SPEAKER_01: and directed before on a budget that's just unimaginable that broke block lines.
59:42
SPEAKER_01: Ticket Office Records.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: And so there's a way to pivot and keep practicing your art,
59:50
SPEAKER_01: doing your business,
59:51
SPEAKER_01: the profession in a way that people may not have thought of before,
59:54
SPEAKER_01: like these two separate individuals did.
59:57
SPEAKER_01: And it's probably the foundation to a long and lucrative career for each of these individuals.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_01: So I love to tell people, you know...
1:00:07
SPEAKER_01: Think outside the box, take a deep breath, one day at a time, write.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: Don't do what everyone else in town is doing.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_01: If you're concerned about what's happening,
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: don't simply repeat and repost what everyone else is posting, okay?
1:00:23
SPEAKER_01: That's not how we fix problems.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: Think about what needs to be said.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_01: How do you feel about it and why?
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: And research.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_01: Do your research.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_01: Make sure you know what you're talking about.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_01: And then share your thoughts, whether it's in an audio or video or written post on Substack.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: And just be a leader.
1:00:41
SPEAKER_01: We need more good leaders.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: We need more good leaders around the world right now.
1:00:48
SPEAKER_00: I agree we need more good leaders,
1:00:51
SPEAKER_00: but right now I feel like we have a lot of chiefs and not enough Indians.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_00: Everyone is trying to be an expert in something that they're not necessarily an expert in.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: So my advice to anybody listening is ask questions.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: It's okay to ask questions.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: One of the reasons I really wanted to have this conversation with you,
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: and we talked about this before we went live,
1:01:12
SPEAKER_00: And it's a reason why I wanted to have a similar sort of conversation
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: with Julian Zelizer a few weeks ago, is that we don't know everything.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's really important to ask an expert every once in a while,
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: hey, can you come on and ask these questions?
1:01:26
SPEAKER_00: And everybody who's listening,
1:01:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to be the person that asks the questions so that you all can go to
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: the dinner party and sound smart.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: I don't mind asking the questions if people think, oh, that's a stupid question.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: Fine.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to ask it.
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: But I think at the end of the day,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: we are so inundated with information that we've kind of lost the art
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: of asking questions.
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: So everybody who's tuning in,
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: you want to ask a question of me and Mitch, my job is as an investigative reporter.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: There is no question that I find silly or inconvenient.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: I am happy to research it,
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: find out,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: talk to my pals who are experts and Same thing I would imagine for you,
1:02:06
SPEAKER_00: being a lawyer and being vested into bringing facts.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid to ask questions.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: Now is a great time to be asking them because we're inundated with so much opinion
1:02:19
SPEAKER_00: and a lot of dribble.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is definitely the case.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_00: I really would love to do this again with you and pick another
1:02:28
SPEAKER_00: Because I think it's such a great conversation.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_00: It's such a privilege to have a conversation that I hope everybody finds informative.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: And we'll see from the feedback.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_00: But I would love to do this again.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_00: It's been such fun talking to you.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_00: And really, I've learned a lot.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I have too.
1:02:49
SPEAKER_01: And to second what you just said, questions are the key to success.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, the more questions you ask and ask open-ended questions.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_01: Don't ask questions where you're expecting someone to answer them a certain way.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: Genuinely care what the other person has to say.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_01: Ask questions from the heart.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: Lead with kindness and empathy when you're asking questions and then stop talking
1:03:12
SPEAKER_01: and listen to the response.
1:03:14
SPEAKER_01: And then I do feel like right now we're all walking around with the answers
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: on our phones using AI.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_01: I think if you use AI correctly,
1:03:25
SPEAKER_01: you can do a deep dive and get the correct answers,
1:03:28
SPEAKER_01: the objective,
1:03:29
SPEAKER_01: factually supported answers to your questions if you use it the right way.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: So maybe spend a couple of hours learning how to use AI the right way,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_01: to ask the right questions, to fact check stories so that you are not...
1:03:43
SPEAKER_01: Miscommunicating what happened to your family and friends
1:03:46
SPEAKER_01: and instead you are re-centering what people need to be talking about so
1:03:51
SPEAKER_01: that we all can learn from what you have to say,
1:03:54
SPEAKER_01: from what you share on Substack and the other platforms.
1:03:57
SPEAKER_01: And maybe Meredith and I next time we'll have you on the show so that we can,
1:04:02
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:04:03
SPEAKER_01: all get through this together as a community because that's what this is all about.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_01: This is about being a community.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, so well said.
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: I will just add for anyone, I do not use AI to write, but I use it as a research assistant.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: And I prompt it to fact check things for me.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: When I'm writing, I have thousands of pages of transcripts on this broadband piece I'm writing.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: I feed it in so that I can fact check myself against transcripts.
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: And when I ask AI to help with research,
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: I ask it to use primary resource material and to cite the source so
1:04:38
SPEAKER_00: that I can double check it.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: So AI is a...
1:04:42
SPEAKER_00: Is a tool that can help you do things faster and more comprehensively.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: It's not blind trust everything that an AI says,
1:04:51
SPEAKER_00: but if you prompt it correctly, I agree with you, Mitch.
1:04:54
SPEAKER_00: It can be a fantastic research tool,
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: but you just have to,
1:04:58
SPEAKER_00: like any other research or human researcher,
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: you have to be willing to put in the work to make sure
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: that what you're sourcing is factual.
1:05:08
SPEAKER_00: But anyway, I...
1:05:10
SPEAKER_00: I want to thank you.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_00: I know I've kept you longer than I said.
1:05:14
SPEAKER_01: This is awesome.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it, Meredith.
1:05:16
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me on.
1:05:17
SPEAKER_01: And everybody, stay connected with Meredith on Substack.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_01: Connect with me over on my Uncensored Objection Substack.
1:05:23
SPEAKER_01: And we'll try not to let you down with the content that we share, right?
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: And let's do this again.
1:05:28
SPEAKER_00: If everybody wants us to do this again,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: give us a big thumbs up, tune in, leave some comments on the recorded version.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_00: And Mitch, it's so great to chat to you.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_00: This was really fun.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Meredith.
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay, everybody.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.