Latest / Psyched For Sanity / Episode 43 - The Psychology of Friendship (Part 2)

Transcript

Episode 43 - The Psychology of Friendship (Part 2) · Psyched For Sanity

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, and welcome to Psych for Sanity.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: I am one of your hosts, Dr.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Brendel Doss.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a licensed psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, trauma treatment, geriatric psychology, and child assessment.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm Dr.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Tara McKelvey Parker.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: I am also a licensed clinical psychologist.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_03: I work in private practice.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: I specialize in assessing and treating complex trauma and attachment wounds from childhood.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm Caroline Brenner.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I am also a licensed psychologist, and I work with uh adults and adolescents as well as children in psychotherapy as well as psychological assessment.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, we have our friend back.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yay! Yes, we're finishing up um our episode from Last Time on friendship, and I have an announcement.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I wait, wait, wait.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Is this a scary announcement?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, stop.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let her have that.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: No, you don't get to know.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: You don't get to know what it's gonna be, actually.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: You just have to see well, thank you.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if anyone could tell last time probably on camera.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was very salty about my My Little Pony results.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: I was personally offended by getting whatever her name.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: What's her name that you're gonna do?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're blocked her out.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: She's a lovely pony.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Susan, back me up on this.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know she's a lovely pony.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Susan likes to comment.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: She had a wonderful comment on my little pony.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful take.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I got an email from Susan.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I shared it with her.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Susan's one of our listeners, and she appreciated the My Little Pony references.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And she has some great feedback for future episodes.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: The My Little Pony oriented.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I felt personally offended by probably just the description about Fashionista.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: I was feeling all insecure about it.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I want some like Applejack.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: I want some Fluttershy.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I took the quiz.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not biased or anything, guys.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: So she totally took it, like authentically.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: I took it and my She did take the quiz.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: I I took the quiz and it's it's super official.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna pull it.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna pull it up because it is um IDR Labs.com, individual differences research established in 2009.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_03: So it feels like a more legit online quiz.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's not BuzzFeed.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hey.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: No, not BuzzFeed.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: I got sponsors.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: I got a hexagon.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: They have great quizzes.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Hexagon.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: What's a hexagram?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: Is that a hexagram?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: A word you made up.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't I was combining things.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hexagon.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: I got hexagonal results.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it broke up my ponies into like it tells her percentages.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: I got a percentage for each pony.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: Then my top pony was Apple was Applejack.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Which I will very much agree with.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not now that I have educated myself a little bit.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: You've educated yourself?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: I still don't know what ponies are.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, don't I'm so happy.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: All that I literally know about Rarity is that she's a Fasanista.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_03: And all I literally know about Applejack is that she's loyal.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_03: I know.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_03: I was salty for no reason.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_03: I know nothing about these ponies.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_03: But I was like, I'm loyal to.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I got Applejack because I'm not biased.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, every pony.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_03: She is not biased.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_03: You could kind of tell on the question.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you totally got who you wanted to get.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then after that, it's Fluttershy.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: And guess what?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Rarity was number three because I am a Fashion Nista.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Do you admit that I was accurate to a degree?
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, of course.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't about the inaccuracy.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: It felt like a more superficial quality compared to the loyalty.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I'm not just a fashionista.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I went on and on about it for a while.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: You did for several minutes.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I kept talking about it and I was mad about it.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: You had a lot of big feelings.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: Do you feel better now?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I feel seen by this quiz.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_03: And also, no, not by us at all.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: Not our friends.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I feel seen by this.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: I've been seen by this quiz.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I still don't know what any of it means, but I think you feel medicated.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, on that note, we're talking about friendship, like you mentioned.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And friendship is important.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's important.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: And the research it shows.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that we we had a lot to say about friendship, and so we wanted to revisit this because we've all talked about this and how we're not only grateful that we establish friends at a younger age, but it's harder to find friends as an adult.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: And why that would be.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of alluded to it, but I think we deserve it deserves more time and space to talk about specifically.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but as you get older, the research shows that you're more selective about who you want to be with and why you want to be with them.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think in your 20s, you're like, oh, you know, who can I meet?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And in your 40s or 30s, even it's more like, who can I invest in?
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like who can I spend time with?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: And who invested me back.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: The the reciprocal piece of the relationship.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: And 100%.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Our energy and our time is so zapped already with so many other things.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: So we really want friendships and relationships that are fulfilling and build us back up.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: Not that are always feeling like they're draining.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes friendships need work too, though.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think that when you're younger, you have less responsibilities.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's more time.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as you get older, if you you know, you might have um relationship commitments, parental commitments, job commitments that don't exist at the same level necessarily.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: For some people they may, but in your teens or your twenties.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: Just self-care and hobbies and all of that stuff takes up time and energy.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: You have, we were talking about max capacity on the last episode with you.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, yeah, you have a max capacity for social endeavors.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know, who do you really want to reserve your time and energy for?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's not something definitely I thought about my 20s.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, hey, be friends with me.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like, you know, I'll be friends with anyone.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: Not really like that, but like, you know, there wasn't I wasn't being as selective.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: This is only really something I've started thinking about more recently.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: I 100% agree.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like I've talked about my friendship journey.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't really feel like I found like my friends until I was in my late, late, late teens, early 20s.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And around the time, right right after the time, like maybe I think I met you guys when I was 25 or 6, maybe 27.
• 6:23
  unknown: No.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But anywho.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Caroline.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: Math in our heads is hard.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't get a PhD in math.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's okay.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: We love you.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I had to take remedial math in college and I feel a little embarrassed about it.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for sharing.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm I appreciate it.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I feel vulnerable in front of you.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I can be that way.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't laugh.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't say that you laughed.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did you laugh?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit.
• 6:45
  unknown: Okay.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Trying to bring attention to that.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think you were expecting that.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you laughed.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, and your face.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: I have a problem with it.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: Really funny faces.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: So even when you say things that are serious, they sometimes you have a face and it's I can't.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: The sound behind that face was this.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Wah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I it's it's not wrong.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's comical.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's comical, you know, in like a kind of anyway, yeah.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but despite my face, I didn't really find my people until my early 20s.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt some type of way about that for a long time.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I was a friend chaser.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: I might even say friend loose to be podcast polite.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was I would as a friend chaser.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I was really wanting to have those close, intimate friendships with both men and women, like truly just friendships, like honestly, platonic, like connective.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't feel like I found those until I found my people in my 20s and 30s.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really grateful grateful for that.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I think it's so important to talk about this because if you don't have that experience in your late teens or 20s, you don't feel like you find your people for a variety of reasons.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you move, maybe you have life events or circumstances.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: At the later ages, it can feel more cumbersome or tricky.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Much more intimidating, much, yes, I think, too.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's just hard.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: You yeah, we it's more common to have friend groups still from childhood or adolescence, you know, through school or extracurriculars or church, just other organized groups.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: So definitely it's it's it's intimidating and hard thinking about, especially because you want to choose intentionally, right?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Because you have limited time when you're thinking about that, then it almost becomes a little bit of an sometimes an audition process for new people, right?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like Do I have the time and energy?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is this someone I really vibe with?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do we share values?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_03: As opposed to like, hey, you want to come over and just like hang out?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: You want to come over and eat nachos and watch friends.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like no one says that anymore in your 40s normally.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, people should.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: That maybe French Club night?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_03: Nachos and friends.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: Gotta figure out some creative activity to throw in there.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: I could figure that out.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: Figure it out.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be like a friend's trivia.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh that'd be fun.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love that.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm here for this.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Not creative, but something different.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, something different.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very much here for that.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: I will say, and this is how I love um, I think Caroline, you're more open to this because you're a more open person than I am.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I think Tara's um friendship club has really opened me to crafts.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it has too.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I have four, I was foreclosed on crafts, and I am much more open now.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was inappropriately foreclosed.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: We've got our friends.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're well on that.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like seriously.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: She agrees with you.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_03: The last one we did pounded flower art on like cardstock, and I bought like frames.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: Some of them I antique.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: I went like antiquing for.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: You invested.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_03: Guys, I did.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: She invests very much in.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: She does.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love her.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love her.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: It was fun.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: Next time, though, it's gonna be easier.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of work.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_03: This last one was a lot of work.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: I can't tell you how many bouquets of flowers I bought and killed in this endeavor.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: Every time I went to Callaway's, she's the woman at Callaway's.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_03: Do you need some help?
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I was like, no, I'm just buying things for art.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna like pound them.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: And she's like, uh oh.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: She thinks this brownie cow just thinks that she's perfect.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: A bunch of flowers for picking a lot from the honey or voice.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: Like a lot of flowers.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because I had I had to test and see which ones would transfer.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and those pansies were really hard for you to keep alive.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't work tricky.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was like rotating them in.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're the good ones to transfer, as we know now.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: Rotating them in the windowsills.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: You are the man.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: I kept enough alive, and you guys all made art, and I had a ton of flowers left over, and then I made a bunch of extra art.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: Good for you.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and I tried really hard not to throw them away, at least to use them.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like they died in the name of art and creeping.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Friendship would at least be appreciative of that, right?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't just die.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: She gave them out of reasons.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't actually know if she would understand.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: She really didn't like it.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Do you need help?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, we all do.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_03: We all need help.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: It just depends on how much and what kind.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_03: This is true.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: This is what I believe.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: This is true.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it's fine, Callaway's lady.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_03: I am okay.
• 11:13
  unknown: The flowers are not.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're good.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can vouch that she has kept a lot of other plants alive.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like you very impressively.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_03: I have a rotation.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's been intentional because I feel like plants in your house means that you're in a grown-up.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I have a lot of plants.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have a lot of plants.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a plant person.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know why, but that's just what I feel like.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I've been trying to keep plants in my apartment.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I want to come back to what you were saying, though, about like choosing the people and how it takes that time to really develop those connections.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: What about the situations where it is imbalanced?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, maybe we were close and then all of a sudden there's a shift in the friendship.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And how how do we deal with that change over time, right?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: Where I still have expectations or hopes from you, and you're no longer meeting those for a reason that I now don't understand.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean for a friendship?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And how as adults do we handle those things?
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to think about talking about that?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you have to?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: How about Caroline?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: You tell us the answer.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I have the answer.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Tara is anxious.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um deflection, deflection, deflection.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: Someone went off script.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, I love it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um Tara doesn't like that.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's fine.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: I do think, I do think like if you have if it's a healthy relationship, it's a healthy friendship, there's enough of a base there, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Then I I guess I feel like you should be able to or could talk about your expectations and address the what you've noticed and what's going on, and like, how can I be helpful?
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: And like, hey, I'm feeling really distant, like I really need this from you.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: And like, can the other person reciprocate and do it and acknowledge and take responsibility?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's like conflict resolution.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what I was thinking, is very similar to the conflict resolution that we spoke about last time.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I do think though, I do think that sometimes, unfortunately, if there's been an eroding at the foundation and there doesn't appear to be at the moment openness to feedback or the emotional intimacy, I have up full transparency.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have like accepted someone else's place, like where they are and what they can give.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Versus like go in there and be ready to do the hard conversation.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think that's a bad thing.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've learned, because I used to get really hurt when people would emotionally um or even behaviorally, because of like whatever, step back from friendships.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I would take that real personal.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I've learned through my own work and therapy and just my experiences and my friendships that have that have persisted.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: It probably has maybe something to do with me, but I can't take accountability unless I'm given that feedback, you know?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sure.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if I don't feel like the person has any openness to hear that I feel like it's a distance, and if there's not that emotional safety for me to have that conversation with them, then I'm gonna accept what they're willing to give, or I'm I'm gonna let that be what it is.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I I remember learning I'm I don't know if this is like a term that everyone learns, but do you guys have you heard of the social convoy?
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: That term.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about it a lot when I was working in the hospital with eating disorders.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: It was part of our one of our process groups.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: We talked about like who you let into your inner rung versus who gets this outer rung versus who gets this outer rung.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: There's like varying degrees of safety in a relationship for conflict resolution.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Some people, you know, you may want to resolve something, they don't have the capacity or the willingness.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: So that's going to create distance.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think that's part of what I was thinking when you said approach it with conflict resolution in mind of like I can have that safe space.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: The other person has to reciprocate that and be willing to talk absolutely why they may be pulling away, whether it's the vulnerability piece of being safe enough to say that, right, um, or being in a space where they are willing to acknowledge some of those things.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really, really hard though.
• 15:09
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: And it's definitely, yeah, for sure.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's really, really hard for many, many people.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so then, you know, distance, I think distance grows and you don't have as close of a relationship, and that's okay with that's okay for some relationships.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's okay for some people.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, not every relationship is going to be deeply intimate where there is this reciprocity you're talking about.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Have you heard of the this is maybe it's kind of uh some people might think it's cheesy, but some people enter your um life for a season, a reason, and some for a lifetime.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think that kind of taps into that.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Especially if the connection that was created or the foundation of that friendship was based on something in that season.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Or if it's like a season at a point, like there's a single peer metaphorically for that foundation.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think over time, kind of like um that video that we we critiqued.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that marriage, like what I knew about marriage ago?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: They talk about how the person you marry or the person you start the relationship with is not the person after 10 years.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like they change.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: You have to keep meeting that new person that you're with with curiosity and like care.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the same could be said for friendships.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't think I am the same person that I was when we guys we met.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I say you were categorically not, right?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're you're a mother now and you are no longer struggling through grad school or postdoc.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like we have right established careers now and full lives outside of those careers.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we are all very different people than we were 11 years ago.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Not just with those those specific tenants, but also like personally.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: I hope I'm more evolved.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's the you know, the case is over time, I think it requires a certain level of skill, relational skills to be able to maintain close relationships that is as much as hard.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, in two in your 20s, like again, we're just like being friends with people because we share common interests, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: Or we kind of like them, or we go to the same school, or and as you get older and you evolve and mature and develop skills, you know, then if you find your friends a little later, like you do, they're more likely to maybe last when you just you have developed.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's just how I'm right thinking about it from a developmental perspective.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like it would be a little easier then to have those that maturity level to maintain long-term relationships.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas some of maybe someone's you know, some will last and you'll have a friend group from child, but not everyone is going to because you know, you just don't really have the skills together.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you didn't necessarily go through some of those seasons together later in life.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like our connection is based in our childhood or early teen years, but not necessarily in becoming parents together or going through school as an adult together, yeah, or moving, you know, somewhere new.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there's a lot to that as well of I feel this connection and responsibility to this person because they've been in my life for so long.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: But then maybe I don't feel that safety to talk about some things that really affect me today because I don't know that this person actually gets me today.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's very true.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: That makes a lot of sense.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: So for our listeners and our viewers, uh guys, how would people know if they're in a friendship uh that is uh better in their life that is helping them?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like what kind of things should they evaluate or look at, do you think?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: But the emotional safety piece is is probably one of the biggest ones.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: That's what we've been talking about what you know Caroline's talking about is you know, like do is there the emotional safety enough, you know, established where you can bring up things that are hard, that you feel like safe to be all of you um vulnerable vulnerable, that someone is going to be able to receive that and be you know validating and empathic and if there's an issue to be able to discuss, and that's okay.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: And the relationship can survive those kinds of the hard things, right?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: Vulnerable things.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also go ahead, please.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: The respective boundaries, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't have the time, energy, finances for X, Y, Z right now, um, or I'm pulling you in, I'm going through something, and I need I need more of you right now.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's it can go in so many different ways with the boundaries that we set within our friendships.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Also understanding that I don't assume that your availability is like it was in your 30s.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Regardless of whatever our life choices be, whether whether it's parenting or jobs, I think that I would assume that would evolve and like respecting the evolution of boundaries.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think also like can the person really celebrate you and like cherish you and like be like lift you up.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think we were talking about before we started recording.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Can the poke person like celebrate you and let the focus be on you without it making it about them?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think in a lot of friendships that maybe aren't gonna be as as lasting, the person has to turn it back on about something about them.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of to your point.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, that kind of goes to I think this lack of reciprocity.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, in general, you want a a a healthy, sort of safe relationship as one that's mostly reciprocal, doesn't mean 50-50.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: No, and the the percentage may shift depending on what people are going through.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes people can only give 10 or 20 percent, and maybe the other person is picking up the slack, but in general, over time, there is a sense that both of us can exist in this relationship equally and get our needs met.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with um what you were saying about celebrating each other and not turning things back on themselves, sometimes people really struggle with how to show empathy and support for someone without being like, oh, and I connect on this because I went through something like that.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so that can kind of turn in friendships into that, oh, that's so good for you.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you about this time that something just like that happened to me.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yikes.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I get your excitement and I'm trying to connect with you, but I'm no longer just focused on your moment and being able to celebrate you.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think, and I also do, I would say I think that's pretty nuanced because I can definitely experience a person or a friend empathizing with their own story as long as it comes back around.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: For me, I'm totally fine with sharing an accomplishment and someone be like, oh my gosh, me too.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm so happy, you know, I'm so happy for you too.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, tell me everything, and then like tell me everything.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't have to be quite like you know, I think there can certainly, I I think that's fine.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like the overall intent, and can we kind of come back around then to sort of like this is both of our win.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and also what we were discussing before we started recording the pattern, right?
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: If the pattern in the friendship becomes more of that, I quickly turn it around to you every time.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Do I always bring it back?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: But am I still kind of?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: bringing myself more into the story than I need to.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think patterns in general in real life.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, in in in general.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: In general.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because there may be moments and seasons too where a person doesn't feel quite as safe to be vulnerable in close relationships.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not it's not necessarily a pattern of that.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's an important point.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_03: So emotional safety, conflict resolution, celebrations, you know, about growth and success.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: Boundaries.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I also feel like um how do you feel when you're with this person?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like who do I become around this person?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: And how do I feel like afterwards?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Do I feel like invigorated, lifted up, or drained?
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like it is, it's, it's, it's work.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and you and that may not mean that it's not a person you want to have in your life or close in your life, but you know, that's maybe where your own personal boundaries come in because it's like, okay, I'm gonna, I I need to choose, I need to choose a little bit of space or distance right now.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right attention.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: And even with that, there's a pattern that may be happening.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a one-off situation where this one time it felt like a draining situation.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: But in general if you're feeling like negged out or drained.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Negged out.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's something my mom says I don't that's those like blast from the past.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah negged out.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: What does that mean?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like you feel like you know they're like particularly negative energy.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like you feel pulled down.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: I've I've had those interactions in the past.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: For sure.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like that might not be someone that you might would be super close to or you might have to have boundaries around how much time you spend or you know again maybe it's just occasionally and it's like fine and you know you can you can weather that but um yeah I was trained poorly about yourself.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: You know like you are doing more work than than the other.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big flag for me in the past is if I'm constantly chasing a person to like reaching out.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Right and they don't respond.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right then like not in like a negative like you're a bad person vibe kind of thing but like hey clearly right now either you don't have the time or space for me or clearly something's happening that you don't feel comfortable talking to me if there's an issue between us.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe we're just at a season that's drifting and that's it is what that is.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: I won't say it's okay, but it is what it is because maybe it doesn't feel okay in the moment.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't feel okay in the moment but it is also if it is between two people or within this other person you can't control it.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can't force it to be a certain way.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: No matter how much I tried I loved you I loved it definitely in your 20s it sounds like I heard that like Caroline laugh and I'm like did you hear that?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: That was amazing.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: What there was a giggling oh Caroline's the microphone picked it up I didn't hear it.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: You'll hear it when you do the clips oh cool but Tara what you were saying really made me think about the differences in as we are younger choosing our friends and do we know maybe it was you Brendel sorry who we are in that relationship right so when we're younger we are not confident in who we are we are still trying to figure out who we are as people we're still exploring.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: We are still exploring naturally developmentally appropriately right so yes we're saying yes we're trying to fit in maybe we don't really know where our own personal boundaries are because definitely even going back to like the our child development episodes like you know when you're four and your friends it's just like hey you're there.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: You mean my friend right you know when you're six, seven eighty proximity you're just right there.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah you reach a little older right you know or older childhood and you're like hey you like to read I like to read common interests right you get into adolescence you start connecting over values you start building that emotional you're starting to really solidify your identity but even so I feel like that span you're you know twenties adolescence all the way through 30s forties these social skills are developing right or developing internally we're figuring out who we are where we becoming more selective based on how we develop and who we see ourselves as now at 30, 40 years old and what we want in a friendship.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yes yes like with intention yes thinking about all of these kinds of qualities that we're talking about that makes a healthy friendship.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's like okay this is important to me some of it may not be as important right in this list that we're talking about, right?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: For people in their close friendships.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: But well and I think there's a lot to be said for so much of this just happens unconsciously right like we're not all sitting here we're talking right now very intentionally saying I think about these values or I see this in this person.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Day to day that's not happening.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: No and it's only upon reflection or sitting down or saying I just got home from hanging out with Susie why am I feeling this way I have this feeling I hung out with Jesse yesterday and I felt really good.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: What is happening?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: What was the difference?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Where am I in this?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or with that you like oh man I'm supposed to hang out with Susie and I really don't want to also yes well and I again not everyone is even going to do that reflection and that that's kind of still check later.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: So these things are still happening even if we're not paying attention to them.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: These like I'm trying to decide how I affiliate with these other people.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and you know it it reminds me a little bit of our CPTSD episode that we recorded before this because you know the relational skills relation is for even for other people it's even harder to sort of come by these could this kind of awareness and these kinds of skills and this kind of intentionality.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully just with time and maturity and growth it becomes easier but even so like it can still be challenging at an older age for some I think relationships in general um friendships, romantic, uh familial there's so many challenging components and doing it in a way that is like effective is hard and even if you have training experience and you've been to therapy I think it's a growth process.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: I definitely feel like I have developed more of my relational abilities over the past five years and like intentional about my like how I am showing up or how I'm not I think I really was kind of an absent friend in a way like in my late 20s.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm grateful those people hung on thanks guys thanks Ann thanks Kristen thanks Lauren um but I think that like I like am much more I really work hard because it's not automatic for me.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I told you guys this after our postdoc I said to you guys because we had finished we were wrapping up I said I'm not gonna see you every day so I'm not gonna like it's gonna be harder for me like or maintain maintain connection so like I'm sure I probably put it on you guys inappropriate like so like reach out to me like which is such a sh like uncool thing to do.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember any of this kind of like don't let me go.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Don't leave me at the end at the end because I knew that it's hard if I don't see someone on the day to day historically when I was younger it was hard for me to maintain a level of emotional intimacy.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's an advanced relational skill you know like if you when you're out of the friendship factories right it takes real intention and skill and maturity to be able to then phase that we're all in I think too yeah and one of those is being intentional about time spent because you know deeper friendships require quite a bit of time spent.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and intentionality.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so well is there anything else that people should really look at or consider if they're evaluating their relationships, their friendships or things that are important to look for in a person that we haven't talked about already.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think those are the big I think the only other one that we didn't quite explicitly state but I think was implied was being growth oriented.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't actually think and and uh people differ I think in their how they approach friendships and relationships some kind of expect that relationships should just click and you should just vibe others are more builders and I'm a I feel I I align a little bit more in that camp that we are all kind of unresolved in some ways and have some things and some deficits and we choose people that we can grow with and build with that and so I think being growth oriented and willing to grow in your friendships is important.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense well Caroline since you're a guest what are you taking away from friendship part two like what are you appreciating about our conversation today what's your take on it?
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate where we have been in our friendship journey over the 10 years.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um the ups and downs the more intention the more time together and I guess I I brought up the effect that people are not consciously thinking about these things all the time because I recognize that in myself of like I can see these things when we sit and talk about it and I I can feel what I feel or think you know oh I really I want to reach out to Tara I haven't seen her in a while or haven't talked to Brendel this week you know I can think about those things but what does that mean?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think spending a little bit more time on that personally feels like a really good fit makes sense.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: But what about you?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Relationships are hard that's what I'm thinking about all of it's hard.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: Vulnerability's hard some of these skills we're talking about are harder for me.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm just thinking about like yeah maybe just being a little bit more intentional where I'm it's funny you say that because I really perceive you to be really good at a lot of these things.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's fascinating.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I do too but I don't think you and I are as in touch with the effort that it takes that doesn't mean yeah yeah yeah for for others.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Not not just for Terra I think that's a good way of putting it because I I think I can carry on pretty well externally we talked about this a lot in the CPTSD episode I think I can be very appropriate but it is quite a lot of effort.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean I think that's the piece that we don't always get to see.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we do and sometimes there's a lot of internal internal turmoil and conflict.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's rocky season and insecurity and fear all of the CPTSD stuff is inside all the time I'm dealing with it.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I can I can rein it in and be quite functional and look quite appropriate internally I'm like oh my god everything is scary.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: Do you want to hide in my grip hidey hole?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: No I want to go in my hole guy.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: She wants a burrito blanket so that sound better you know if you go in a hidey hole I will crawl in there and get you out.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: She's literally telling you not to will I do there is some yeah no I get what you're saying and I I appreciate it.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: I sometimes do need to be dragged out despite it being unfortunate.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Metaphorically dragged I will not drag her.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Please don't drag me in the comments it's like in the last episode when you're like I'm so grateful that you feel like yeah she got okay we recorded an episode and I was like I'm so I'm so happy for your gratitude and she was like and I'm like like go farther away from me right now it's like that sort of comfortable with that type of emotional expression in that moment you know I'm still not expressive.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_03: I know you are but it was a part of me that's uncomfortable it's a younger scared part I appreciate it.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: I know I like it I need that actually it doesn't feel violating.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: No I I I hope that if it did feel violent you would communicate which I trust that you would I trust that in our relationship it feels like a part of me that is rejecting the closeness.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that is funny so that's also there too.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: The push pull right with CPTSD I want to be close but I don't really want to be close because it's not safe.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_03: So like that conflict is really heightened for me a lot in relationships.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well I think it's interesting uh you know I'm just appreciating both of you so much and I was so looking forward to this episode so I'm so glad to have you back.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: I love when you're here back thank you um I hope you come again um why are you laughing at that I'm gonna be here next time what else to be here it was my turn she was talking to me I'm gonna still be here I looked at Caroline You're like I come every time we record I know I'm sorry I zoned out for a second I think it's a real flutter shy comment I'm gonna tell you that right now Susan back me up that was fluttershy all the way Susan knows all about the ponies the email is really clear that she was a pony aficionado I'm excited for Susan to listen to this episode and I hope you guys enjoyed our friendship episode too let us know this podcast is intended for informational and educational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy diagnosis or any kind of professional mental treatment we hope that we can share with you our experience authentically and genuinely and we hope that occasionally we'll make you laugh.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can relate to our quest and how we're psyched for sanity.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: The content we share is um our personal opinions and insights they are not clinical insights to anyone and they don't represent or reflect any entity that we work in or have worked for in the past.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: But if listening to this podcast has made you think we really encourage you to seek out a mental health professional in your area