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Samson Mow | $1 Million Bitcoin Explained | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

0:00
Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of
0:02
Simply Bitcoin IRL. Today we have a very very
0:05
special guest Samsung Mao. I have so many questions, so
0:09
many things to ask him. But before we jump into it, I do
0:11
want to give a shout out to the Bitcoin company that makes this
0:14
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0:25
Anyways, no more delay. I want to bring Samsung up on
0:28
stage. Samsung, I'm just going to rip
0:31
the Band-Aid off. Just jump straight into it.
0:33
You are saying $1 million Bitcoin?
0:37
What? What's the logic behind that?
0:39
Well, like not only $1 million Bitcoin, which we all know is
0:42
going to come eventually, but $1 million Bitcoin in a very, very
0:45
short amount of time. Right.
0:48
So I think the key message I'm trying to get across is that the
0:51
macro environment has fundamentally changed.
0:55
And then I did some analysis and other people like Macronaut and
0:58
Bitpain and others have also done the math too.
1:01
And Bitcoin going up 20X is not a difficult thing.
1:04
It's done it sometimes in the past.
1:06
So the key here is that everything is different now with
1:10
the ETFs with the amount of money able to flow into the
1:14
Bitcoin ecosystem and we can very rapidly go up to 1,000,000.
1:18
Whether we stay there or not is a different question, but just
1:21
the lack of supply because we are constrained.
1:25
It's about 1.4, maybe 1.6 million BTC on exchanges right
1:30
now. That's not a lot, and at some
1:32
point it's going to dry up, especially at the rate at which
1:35
the ETFs are hoovering up all the coins at the moment.
1:38
Gotcha. And so I'm, I'm assuming based
1:42
on that statement you do not believe in the diminishing
1:46
returns theory because that is one of the narratives this
1:49
cycle. You know, every cycle you have
1:50
different narratives, right. One of the big narratives by the
1:53
crowd is this idea of Bitcoin has diminishing returns.
1:57
You know, I think a lot of people have PTSD from the last
2:00
cycle of us not breaking 100 Ki have my theories.
2:03
I think it was the China ban that played a huge role in that.
2:08
So I'm assuming you don't believe in the diminishing
2:11
returns theory. Not really.
2:13
I mean, we talk often about hyper bitcoinization and if you
2:17
believe in hyper bitcoinization then it's impossible to believe
2:22
in diminishing returns because there should be no cycles to
2:26
Bitcoin. If you're going to reach the
2:28
point of hyper bitcoinization whereby we replace all Fiat
2:32
money, then there is nothing to go back to.
2:34
So what are you measuring the returns in, Right?
2:37
If the US dollar no longer exists, then how can you have
2:41
diminishing returns? So I guess there's two parts
2:44
there. One is, will there be another
2:46
cycle? And I'm not really sure.
2:49
Like just because we had three similar looking cycles in the
2:52
past does not mean that we're always going to have this cycle,
2:55
right? Because it's like flipping a
2:57
coin. You get heads three times,
3:00
doesn't mean the next time it's more likely you're going to get
3:02
tails. It's a different it's a
3:05
different equation every single time.
3:07
And the other part is, well, if Bitcoin does replace Fiat, then
3:14
there is no diminishing returns. You're just Bitcoin now, so it's
3:18
not really possible to measure returns.
3:21
Gotcha, gotcha. Interesting.
3:23
Very, very interesting. And then, so let's talk a little
3:27
bit about the ETF you were mentioning earlier, But I, I
3:31
want to back that up. And I just want to comment on
3:35
the absolute disaster release, the behavior by the SEC, the
3:41
tweet, the early tweets, and then it was deleted, and then
3:46
the next day it was approved. And then the very vengeful,
3:50
spiteful post by Gary Gensler, I'm sure Elizabeth Warren was
3:54
tapping on his shoulder. So what's your take on that?
3:59
What's your opinion? Well, I think it's highly likely
4:04
Gary's going to lose his job, but that was probably the worst
4:08
possible way they could have handled it.
4:11
And even just getting to this point where they denied it for
4:15
pretty much close to a decade is another big kerfuffle.
4:18
So I mean if they had approved it on a reasonable timeline,
4:24
let's say five years ago, they probably wouldn't have had that
4:26
debacle at the launch now. But it is what it is and I'm
4:30
just glad it's all out of the way.
4:31
But there's probably no way it could have gone any worse than
4:36
it went because like if you did mess up and the announcement did
4:40
look OK, does it really matter if someone wrote it for you or
4:45
if it was a pre drafted unapproved tweet?
4:47
I don't know all the details but no one will.
4:49
But it would have been better to just ride on it and say, yeah,
4:53
it's launched now because you launched the next day and then
4:55
you would have saved so much face and saved yourself from so
4:57
much embarrassment just by saying, yeah, it's approved a.
5:01
100% And I also tweeted out some type of meme.
5:05
It wasn't really a meme, but it was just a picture of the
5:08
Bitcoin price graph and it just a Wick up and then a Wick down.
5:12
And then I put consumer protection brought to you by the
5:15
SCC. So they it seems like they
5:18
failed the job that they were supposed to do.
5:21
And then it got worse than that Samson, because essentially if
5:24
you look back on their tweets, it's like don't trust anything
5:28
unless it comes from the SC, CS official handle.
5:31
And then it said something like make sure to turn off your two
5:35
FA. And then it was discovered by
5:37
Twitter that they didn't have their two FA on like this super
5:41
projection. I did a a a satire tweet and I I
5:46
wrote you know breaking SA, CS delaying ETF approvals until Q2
5:52
because compromise social media accounts can result in market
5:56
manipulation and extreme volatility.
5:59
And a lot of people ping me after that in DM saying you
6:02
should delete that because it's too real.
6:04
So I did delete it and then whatever like some some other
6:08
guys posted it, but it it's pretty funny like they could
6:11
have done that and said yeah, well it's a it's a risk so we
6:14
can't approve it yet. Do you think that's like a like
6:18
a representation and of of like the how do I say this nicely, I
6:25
don't think you can say it nicely.
6:26
Do do you think it's a representation of, like the
6:29
inefficiencies of of this very, very bloated government that's
6:35
been funded by this money printer for all these decades
6:38
and decades and decades? the US government's like one of
6:41
the biggest employers in the world, you know, at this point.
6:44
So do you think that's a representation of that, Like if
6:47
that's happening on the top echelon, the top levels, I can't
6:51
even imagine what's happening, you know, on the lower levels of
6:55
that. Well, it comes down to what can
6:59
the government actually do? Can the government and these
7:02
agencies actually protect anybody?
7:04
And the answer is probably not right.
7:06
They're able to retroactively implement some policy, right,
7:10
like take your shoes off when you go through the scanner at
7:13
the airport and all that stuff. But they can't preemptively do
7:17
anything to protect people. And it really shows the the
7:21
inability, really shows in the fact that we have what, 19,000
7:25
or 20,000 altcoins on the market now.
7:28
And you know, the the they never did go after Ethereum when they
7:32
did their ICO because they weren't equipped, educated or
7:36
ready to do so at the time. And they're still not doing
7:40
anything. So the proliferation of all this
7:42
stuff that harms people, that actually does harm people is not
7:45
something they can do anything about.
7:47
They're just not able to. So I think you're you're right
7:50
that these things, these agencies and institutions are
7:54
not very effective at what they're supposed to be doing.
7:57
100% And do you think that the altcoins are here to stay,
8:02
'cause that's another thing where some of the, you know,
8:05
some of the charges, whether it was on Kraken or Coinbase.
8:08
The SEC did mention that you know some of these altcoins are,
8:13
you know, they they see them as security.
8:15
Of course, for some reason they left the theory amount, but
8:17
perhaps they donated too much money.
8:19
But, you know, very popular ones like Cardano and I can't even
8:24
the whole shit coin laundry, to put it nicely.
8:27
So do you like, do you see the do you foresee that as an issue,
8:32
right, that these all coins are really not just gonna go away in
8:36
the United States? It's hard to say.
8:39
I mean, the problem is it's a losing battle.
8:43
Like they'd have to hire a lot of people to go after all these
8:47
projects, right? And I think that is the, the
8:51
main deterrent to them taking any significant action because
8:54
SEC doesn't want to lose in court.
8:56
And sadly they pursue things like blocking ETFs and they go
9:01
to court for that and they lose for that.
9:03
And I think that takes some wind out of their sails to actually
9:05
go after the actual nefarious stuff and stuff that could
9:09
actually make a difference. So it's hard to say, but I mean
9:14
it, it's the, the biggest problem I think is uneven
9:16
enforcement, right. You have some enforcement, some
9:19
selective enforcement on things that they think that they can
9:22
get a easy win under their belt for like like I don't know
9:26
something more innocuous like library right there.
9:29
It's like a content platform token or whatever.
9:31
But then they don't go after the really big stuff and that is the
9:35
the biggest impact and harm that can be caused to investors.
9:39
So we'll see. I mean, when Gary's gone and
9:42
someone replaces him, we'll see what happens, but it's hard to
9:44
say that if they will actually do anything meaningful ever.
9:49
Yeah. And that was a really good point
9:51
that you brought up, which is the amount of resources and it
9:53
was actually has to your peers. Also SEC Commissioner, she said
9:57
She's like the millions of dollars that was spent trying to
10:01
delay this for political reason reasons rather than trying to,
10:06
you know, actually focus on other things.
10:08
So that was a really good point. Now I want to get your take on
10:11
this, Samson. So obviously, the regulatory
10:14
environment in the US has been interesting to say the least the
10:18
last two years, right? We know the current
10:21
administration, you know, is not a big fan of the industry.
10:25
And then it was actually yesterday, which I think it was
10:28
a pretty historical moment in my opinion.
10:30
Not only did you have Javier Malay dropping, I don't know why
10:33
they allowed him to have that speech, right, dropping bombs at
10:37
the Contilion Air conference, AKA the World Economic Forum.
10:40
And you had Donald Trump, out of all people, not quite Bitcoin
10:45
friendly, but advocating against central bank digital currencies,
10:50
which the current administration is actually a big fan of.
10:53
So clearly in terms of the Overton window, it is shifting,
10:57
right, which is a really good thing for bitcoiners.
10:59
What's your take on the current regulatory environment?
11:02
Does it concern you, you know the the not to mention Elizabeth
11:06
Warren's bill just currently 20 senators signed up for 20% of
11:12
the US Senate and a couple Republicans in there as well.
11:16
So what's your take on that? Is that just a temporary thing?
11:19
Do you think we're just in the beginning of the then they fight
11:22
you stage? I mean, they've been fighting us
11:26
for some time. But yeah, it's interesting
11:29
dynamic that's come to play here.
11:30
And I was going to tweet about it yesterday when I ran out of
11:32
time. But I think Donald Trump
11:34
tweeting about his stance or not talking about his stance about
11:38
being against CBD CS is actually massive.
11:40
And like you said, it is a big shifter of of the Overton
11:43
Window. Whereas most politicians and
11:45
governments were like, hey, this is innovative and it's to help
11:48
you now. It's like this is bad.
11:50
It's it's been happening for some time.
11:51
I think DeSantis was talking about CBDCS and talking about
11:56
them in the right light too and then I think Bobby Robert
12:01
Kennedy is also talking about it there.
12:03
There is this percolation of sentiment against CBDCS.
12:09
But Trump blasting out there is is very significant because you
12:13
know he's definitely a he's the Republican candidate probably
12:16
now. So I think it has a lot of
12:18
weight and in terms of all the other anti Bitcoin sentiment, I
12:24
don't really think it matters. I think what we should fight for
12:28
is to prevent CBDCS because if we can stop that from coming out
12:33
and really anchor that Overton window shift to be anti CBDC,
12:39
Bitcoin will win. We just have to give Bitcoin
12:41
that chance to keep going and it's a finished battle.
12:45
It's a done deal. So I don't think it matters if
12:48
Trump is pro Bitcoin or not as long as he's anti CBDC because
12:51
the market forces always will win.
12:54
So I think it's a good thing that more and more politicians
12:57
are taking these more pragmatic stances rather than the more
13:03
pleasant sound bite, virtue signaling path that you
13:06
typically see coming out of Davos.
13:07
And this is, I think, why Malay dropping that bomb of a speech
13:12
was significant because one, it's at Davos.
13:15
And two, it shows how much interest there is in this topic
13:21
and manifesto of freedom that is being spread versus the
13:26
traditional stuff that comes out of Davos usually.
13:29
And you see that in the view counts, right?
13:30
I think he's at millions of views now.
13:32
And the next best one is 30,000 views or something like that.
13:36
So it shows that the people want a certain topic to be discussed.
13:41
They don't want you to plan the next World government and
13:44
telling you to eat the bugs. Yeah, and and the the thing that
13:49
I find hilarious, which is, you know, you have his video just
13:52
went viral, right? Everyone's else is just they're
13:55
not doing so well. But also the virtue signalling
13:59
of, yeah, the environment. Everyone else is flying private
14:02
on their G6. There's nothing wrong with that
14:04
if you could afford a private plane.
14:06
But Javier Malay like a boss travels commercial I think on
14:10
Lufonsa, you know and then he goes in there saying freedom,
14:14
you know individualism versus collectivism.
14:18
So yeah, I I think it was it was definitely a big shift.
14:20
So pivoting back to the spot Bitcoin ETF, Samson one of had a
14:26
very interesting discussion with with Kaitlyn Long and Lawrence
14:30
Lapard and then with Greg Foss and James Lavish and they're
14:34
they're on their other camp but essentially Caitlin Law brought
14:37
up the point of the dangers of rehypothecation with a spot
14:43
Bitcoin ETF. So what are your thoughts on
14:45
that? I mean there's always a risk of
14:49
rehypothecation and I don't think Bitcoin is immune to it
14:53
just because people always, some people will always seek out the
14:56
most convenient form of holding Bitcoin and for the majority of
15:00
people it is with an ETF or with a custodian.
15:03
So there is always at risk. But the benefit and the
15:07
advantage that Bitcoin has is self custody is actually quite
15:11
easy, right? If you can write down 12 words
15:14
you can self custody and if you can drive a car, I think you can
15:17
write down 12 words. So it's just about getting more
15:20
people into Bitcoin. And I view the ETFs as a way to
15:24
orange kill more people, just like I view nation state Bitcoin
15:27
adoption as a way to get more people into Bitcoin.
15:31
Yes, the ETFs are not the ideal format for us hardcore
15:35
bitcoiners that are all about self self custody.
15:38
And yes, it's not ideal that countries accumulate out of
15:41
Bitcoin. It's better the people
15:42
accumulate a lot of Bitcoin, but it's also a way to reach more
15:46
people. So I think you have to take the
15:48
good with the bad and eventually people will learn to self
15:51
custody simply because you have to pay a lot of fees, right?
15:55
Even with the low fees the ETFs are charging, it's still
15:59
significant and you when you compound that over a number of
16:02
years. 100%. And Speaking of self custody,
16:06
I'm. I'm really glad that you brought
16:07
that up. You just announced your new
16:09
project, the Aqua Wallet. I'm gonna pull it up right?
16:13
So Samson, what is this? Why don't you give us a quick if
16:17
you can? If you if you can, that would be
16:19
really appreciated. Quick elevator pitch.
16:21
What is the Aqua wallet first of all?
16:23
The website's awesome, by the way.
16:26
So what is this? So Aqua is a Bitcoin wallet that
16:31
supports layer 2:00. We we have the liquid network
16:34
integrated as well as the lightning network and we also
16:37
have stable coins like USDT. And I think the differentiating
16:41
factor here is we are one of the first wallets out there that
16:45
actually delivers a seamless experience between all these
16:49
different Bitcoin layers and assets.
16:51
So your typical Bitcoin wallet might just store Bitcoin and
16:55
then you might have a way to access some dollar derivative,
16:59
but it's not Tether, right? And Tether is used mostly
17:04
throughout the global S like in Latin America, they just call
17:08
Tether digital dollars. They don't call it tether.
17:10
So that's the level of dominance that it has.
17:11
And I think most wallets don't appreciate that or understand
17:16
that and that's why they're not supporting it.
17:18
And we end up losing a lot of transaction volume and AUM of
17:23
tether to the altcoin chains. And the goal is that we can
17:26
bring that back to Bitcoin because, well, when you're
17:29
storing USDT on on your Aqua wallet, it's on the liquid chain
17:33
and there's no need to buy Tron or Ethereum or any altcoin to
17:36
send that around. And in fact, we have a feature
17:39
coming out soon which will let you pay for USDUSDT transactions
17:43
with USDT. So you don't even need Liquid
17:47
Bitcoin to send it. And I think this is a way for us
17:50
to get more people in Latin America into the Bitcoin
17:53
ecosystem, because a lot of them are looking for digital dollars
17:57
and they may not be using Bitcoin, but I mean, it's just a
18:00
short hop and a jump to get to Bitcoin.
18:03
And Aqua features Bitcoin very prominently as a savings account
18:07
and a spending account. So that's the idea really to
18:10
drive a lot of people into the Bitcoin ecosystem.
18:13
But yeah, we we support right now Liquid and Lightning.
18:18
Lightning is mainly a rail, so you can send and receive on
18:22
Lightning we do submarine swaps with bolts, so it's trustless
18:26
and then your funds are stored in liquid Bitcoin, so you don't
18:29
have to deal with any channel management and things like that.
18:31
So it's it's a pretty good set of trade-offs I think, to
18:35
deliver accessible layer two Bitcoin to the average user.
18:39
Yeah. And and I love the the tether
18:42
integration aspect of it because so my cousin launched a exchange
18:47
in Central and South America and currently in in Columbia he's
18:52
he's doing volume and and I was like hey, So what what are you
18:55
selling? Like you know, people buying
18:57
altcoins or people buying bitcoins like Nico, 99% of my
19:01
business is OTC tether transactions, right.
19:04
And I think that they have like one of the only approvals from
19:09
the central bank in Columbia and this is telling me it's like
19:13
it's tether. Tether people just want that,
19:16
you know that stability versus their local currency.
19:19
So the fact that I think you have that tether integration
19:22
then not to mention the fact that I think tether on certain
19:24
chains is actually extremely expensive.
19:27
So that this wallet fixes that, I'm assuming.
19:32
Yeah, Liquid tether transactions are about $0.10 right now,
19:35
something like that right now. And we have some plans in the
19:39
works to decrease it by a factor of 10.
19:41
So it should be about 1 cent. Most Tron wallets charge a
19:45
dollar for tether on Tron and Ethereum can go up to, you know,
19:50
$13 to $20 depending on the state of the chain.
19:54
So I think there's a big advantage here.
19:56
And plus you have confidential transactions in liquid, so it's
19:59
faster, cheaper and confidential.
20:03
And I think people will learn to appreciate that over time.
20:05
So. We just have to start to pushing
20:08
it And the beautiful thing is we because we have this wallet out
20:12
now, we can start to engage with local Fiat on and off ramps and
20:15
maybe the OTC desks like that one they mentioned from from a
20:19
friend there and tell them to support liquid tether because
20:22
previously there's not really a good option to use the quid
20:25
tether. And the another thing, Samson
20:28
that I wanted to ask you, which is the obviously the regulatory
20:32
environment for Tether itself, right.
20:34
So you know, like DOJ has been on a warpath, right?
20:39
You know they they they took down, they essentially they
20:42
didn't, they didn't take down Binance, they Co opted Binance,
20:45
right. So does that worry you at all
20:48
because I know if you're a bitcoiner, you know that Tether
20:51
plays a big role in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
20:54
Does that worry you at all in terms of potential regulatory
20:58
hostility coming from the Department of Treasury, the DOJ?
21:04
Not really. I mean the all of the that stuff
21:08
has been settled a long time ago and Tether doesn't operate in
21:12
the US and their main focus is really the the global South and
21:16
developing markets. So I don't really think it it in
21:20
it offends them in any way. I mean the maybe they could, but
21:24
then you're getting into very challenging territory like what
21:27
could they actually do to tether because another country can use
21:31
the dollar, Why can't you know a company that's serving global S
21:35
use the dollar as well. So the question is really what
21:38
happens to it. Maybe they could pass some very
21:40
specific stable coin regulation, but that would also kill the the
21:44
US based stable coins as well. So I I just don't see anything
21:47
happening there in terms of like existential risk.
21:52
I really don't see anything because the tether is the one of
21:56
the largest holders of U.S. Treasuries right now.
21:59
I think they're up there with countries like Mexico and others
22:03
in the top 20 or top 25 of UST holders.
22:09
So I mean, you could do that, but it wouldn't be you could you
22:13
could go after it and shut it all down, but it wouldn't be the
22:16
smartest thing to do, especially when the demand for treasuries
22:19
is dropping. So it's well, I don't put it
22:23
past any government in administration to do that, but
22:26
it doesn't make sense if you're thinking about things
22:29
rationally. And also recently in Davos, the
22:32
CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald was on, I think Bloomberg and I don't
22:37
know CNBC one of those, but he was saying Tether they have the
22:41
money, we've seen it, we manage their assets and that sort of
22:46
destroys all Tether Fudd, right. You have one of the largest
22:50
prime dealers in the US, one of 24, one of the largest capital
22:55
equities companies on the planet saying we manage their assets
23:02
and we've seen that they have the assets.
23:04
That's a very powerful thing and it essentially destroys all of
23:08
the FUD and all the narratives that have been swirling around
23:12
Tether for the last decade almost.
23:16
And it's also funny because Tether has always been a target
23:19
of the mainstream media Financial Times.
23:23
You know every single mainstream media rag has targeted them at
23:26
some point, but they could have just picked any other project
23:30
like I don't know, Celsius Block 5 FTX and they would have been
23:34
right. But they picked the stable coin
23:36
to go after the one that has attestations from a top five
23:41
accounting firm saying they have assets.
23:43
So none of this really makes sense.
23:45
I think it's people just trying to instil fear in the market,
23:48
but tether's a solid product and they have 60,000 something BTC
23:53
in their reserves right now. They recently just bought 8888
23:57
more coins and you know, as the value of Bitcoin goes up,
24:01
there's going to be a point at which their reserves are double
24:06
their liabilities. So right now I think they're at
24:07
95 billion USDT in AUM at probably 1.4.
24:14
Assuming they keep the same amount of Bitcoin at $1.4
24:16
million per Bitcoin, they'll have double.
24:20
Their liabilities? Gotcha.
24:21
Gotcha. No.
24:22
And if my research serves me correctly, I believe they have a
24:27
direct account with the Fed. Like Tether has an account with
24:30
the Fed as well. I don't.
24:33
Know maybe. Yeah, so interesting,
24:36
Interesting. So Samson, so obviously as
24:39
bitcoiners we want hyper bitcoinization.
24:41
We want the world to run on a Bitcoin standard.
24:44
Do you see tether as a stepping stone towards that What do you
24:50
see? How do you see tethers role in
24:53
the Cuz right now how it you do a little bit of research it does
24:57
play a very important role and. Yeah.
25:02
So what is it? A step towards hyper
25:04
bitcoinization. Yeah, so in 2018 at some
25:08
conference, I think I was on stage and I said tether.
25:11
It was a panel of stable coins. I remember a few other stable
25:14
coin people there. I'm not sure why I was on that
25:17
panel, but they put me on the panel.
25:18
But I was talking about tether and I said Tether is a mid step
25:21
towards hyper bitcoinization. It's a way for people to get
25:25
into this ecosystem and then move on to Bitcoin, because not
25:31
everyone has a bank account. Tether serves as the last mile
25:35
for banking for much of the world like the We have the
25:38
situation of people that are unbanked, and yes, we can bank
25:41
them with Bitcoin, but you can also bank them with tether on on
25:45
liquid or other chains if you must.
25:47
But the fact is you can get people access to the financial
25:50
system through this mechanism, and it's not rational to think
25:56
everyone's going to suddenly jump into Bitcoin.
25:58
That's more of a a Western perspective, like people that
26:02
think that probably have a bank account and they can make SEPA
26:05
transfers or interact or ACH or whatever.
26:09
But you have to remember there are billions of people in the
26:11
world that can't do any of that and they do want digital
26:16
dollars. And This is why Tether is so
26:18
dominant in the global S because they're they're looking for
26:21
something to protect themselves from inflation and
26:24
hyperinflation. But Bitcoin seems far off for
26:28
them. But a dollar is something that
26:31
they're familiar with. Like most people know what a
26:33
dollar is, that's why it's the reserve currency.
26:35
And tether gives them access to that reserve currency.
26:39
So I think you need to be willing to accept that tether is
26:43
an important part to get to hyper bitcoinization.
26:45
And I've talked to Paulo before too.
26:47
He doesn't believe that you know tether than a stablecoin.
26:51
They do a lot more now. They have energy and mining and
26:53
a lot of other things. But he doesn't think the
26:56
stablecoin will exist forever because the dollar won't exist
26:58
forever too. So I think we're more or less
27:00
all in the same wavelength that stablecoins are a mid step to
27:04
getting towards. Hypercontension Gotcha.
27:06
Yeah. And I agree with that.
27:08
And you know, that's what's really interesting about, you
27:11
know, the Aqua wallet is that it has tether there.
27:14
And Samson, if people were interested in downloading this,
27:17
where could they find it? Yeah, you can get it on the iOS
27:21
App Store and on Google Play and just search for Aqua Wallet.
27:26
The safest way is probably to go to our website aquawallet dot IO
27:30
and find the links there in case the App Store has put up a fake
27:34
one which is getting more and more common these.
27:36
Days Abdi, could you pull up the link while Samsung and I keep
27:39
talking? And another thing Samsung I
27:41
wanna talk to you about is January 3rd right?
27:45
So Jan 3rd specifically, so obviously the mission and you
27:50
left, you left Blockstream which is amazing company and you
27:53
dedicated your life which I think is absolutely badass I
27:56
might add to nation state adoption of Bitcoin.
28:00
We've seen some amazing recent developments out of Honduras.
28:05
What do you know about that and what can we expect from the
28:08
region? In in Honduras.
28:11
Yes, like what? Can you what what is the, what
28:14
is the current state of Bitcoin? Nation state adoption.
28:17
I'll put it like that. I'll say it like that.
28:19
OK. So we are engaged in a number of
28:23
countries and the level of this discussions varies from place to
28:27
place. But last year we went to
28:31
Montenegro, met with the Prime Minister there, We were in
28:33
Colombia, I met with President there.
28:35
We were in Suriname, met with President there, and the Central
28:38
Bank, also in Columbia. We met with the largest bank
28:40
too. But I think the important thing
28:43
about Gentry's mission of accelerating Bitcoin adoption
28:47
and in working with governments and politicians and regulators
28:50
is that we can get the message out there about Bitcoin and we
28:54
can educate them about what Bitcoin is.
28:56
And then we can also talk about why CBD, CS are bad and other
29:01
topics too. So I think it's a useful tool to
29:05
educate a lot of the world. And if we can get countries to
29:08
adopt Bitcoin, then like we talked about before, we can have
29:13
more people learning about Bitcoin.
29:15
Just like in El Salvador when the government implemented their
29:18
Bitcoin law and their digital securities law.
29:20
Well, that on boards a lot of people into Bitcoin that
29:24
otherwise would not have bothered or even cared to.
29:28
So the implication really is we have countries that adopt
29:33
Bitcoin but at a lower level. A really good outcome is that
29:39
they don't have bad legislation like banning self custody or
29:43
self hosted wallets or things like that.
29:46
So I think the work that we are doing is quite important in the
29:50
path to hyper bitcoinization. And so, and that started off
29:53
very strong, right? So you had the the monumental
29:56
and I remember I never forget this conference.
29:58
It was the first Bitcoin conference I spoke at you know
30:01
Bitcoin 2021 and you had that amazing announcement Max Keiser,
30:08
Michael Saylor on stage F, Elon, you know the whole all those
30:12
moments. Right.
30:14
And you had the video announcement from Naimbu KLA
30:19
basically saying we're gonna make Bitcoin legal tender And
30:23
then it it seemed like the general consensus is it seems
30:26
like it it slowed down a little bit after the after that.
30:30
I have a theory on that. I think El Salvador caught them
30:35
by surprise and then all of a sudden I think they're a little
30:39
bit, they have their, their, their brace for impact.
30:43
So what's your thoughts on this? Like, you know, are are you
30:47
seeing pushback from governments?
30:49
Are they, you know, is the IMF in there?
30:51
Is the World Bank like, no, no, no, no, no.
30:55
So what are your thoughts? And of course, Naimbu Kele is a
30:57
is a great leader. You have someone who's very,
30:59
very convicted in his beliefs and not to mention the fact that
31:03
the popularity he has in his electorate is extremely high as
31:07
the most popular president in the Americas.
31:09
So, you know, what's your take on that?
31:11
Are we gonna see a a country this cycle?
31:15
Follow the steps of El Salvador. Yeah, so El Salvador took the
31:19
large brunt of, I guess, animosity from the IMF on all of
31:24
their Bitcoin things. And fortunately, they did really
31:28
well for themselves, right? They boosted their economy,
31:31
their GDP, their traditional bonds are rallying.
31:35
So there's not that much that the IMF can say because
31:39
everything they've done has been a success.
31:41
So I think it makes it easier for subsequent countries to
31:46
implement a Bitcoin strategy without fearing too much of the
31:50
ire of the IMF. Basically they they they they
31:53
went at the king and they have one shot but they they lost.
31:56
So like what can they say with the next country?
31:58
Like you shouldn't do that because El Salvador is
32:00
successful. I mean they could but it doesn't
32:02
make any sense. And if you look at the the media
32:05
and all their publications, a lot of it is quieted down.
32:08
The IMF is not criticizing them anymore and I think with good
32:11
reason. So it makes it easier for us as
32:15
Janet 3 to go and talk to the different countries and say,
32:18
well you can do a Bitcoin strategy and it's OK because IMF
32:22
is not going to say anything. Now I'm I'm sure when they do
32:25
it, there will be a little bit of Sabre rattling.
32:27
But at the end of the day, countries have to look out for
32:29
their own best interests, not the interests of the IMF to keep
32:33
loan sharking, right. So that is really a litmus test.
32:36
Can the leader of our country take the decisions that are that
32:40
are in the best interest and get that country out of debt, out of
32:44
subservience and be sovereign? And the interesting trend that
32:48
we're seeing now is we're, we're seeing politicians come out and
32:52
talk about this and you can take that with a grain of salt, but
32:55
that is the trend like Malay with Bobby Kennedy and a number
33:00
of others. So the tide seems to be shifting
33:03
towards more about pragmatism and being actually sovereign
33:08
countries. Yeah, no.
33:11
And I agree. I I think it's the things are
33:13
definitely shifting and not only in the political sphere but also
33:18
on an individual level. I think people are starting to
33:23
question the the old just cause like to be frank like the amount
33:27
of BS that has come out you know over the last five years and
33:31
just how they're the SEC, how they how they handled that is a
33:36
great example right. And I think people are just
33:38
questioning the very what should be, what should the role of
33:43
government be in my life? And I think I think that's good
33:47
for Bitcoin. Everything's good for Bitcoin.
33:49
So Samson, I don't even know what is, how do you go about,
33:54
you know orange peeling a nation.
33:56
How do you go about convincing a nation to adopt Bitcoin?
34:00
I did. I remember I I did see those
34:02
pictures with you and and the president of of Columbia.
34:05
So how do you approach that? Well, we have a lot of help.
34:09
So we have this network of Gen. 3 associates in all these
34:14
different countries that help U.S.
34:15
Open doors. And it's really just ordinary
34:18
people like plebs and bitcoiners from all walks of life that want
34:22
to help and they have a connection to somebody that
34:25
might know somebody. And then eventually we work our
34:27
way up through meetings and discussions and then we get that
34:31
in person meeting and hopefully we get some real Bitcoin
34:34
strategies coming out of that. And this is what we're mainly
34:36
focused on for 2024, following up on all the things that were
34:39
started in 2023 and just getting that next step.
34:44
But it's really encouraging because I think with the ETFs
34:48
being approved with Bitcoin price action going up, it makes
34:53
it easier and it makes people more interested in Bitcoin.
34:57
It's the Veblen effect, right? So when Bitcoin is down at 16 or
35:01
15, nobody wants it, but when it's up, then people are
35:04
interested again. So we have to use that and use
35:08
what's in our favor to leverage that and take advantage of that.
35:12
Absolutely. And the the the question I have
35:15
for you right is, so let's say a government has a very strong
35:19
yacht currency like you know like the the United States or
35:23
you know the European Union, Oregon, you know Switzerland for
35:25
example. What incentive does the
35:29
government there have to adopt something like Bitcoin because
35:33
it essentially would be a competitor to their Fiat
35:36
currency. And then of course, we all know
35:37
that governments all around the world love to deficit spend,
35:40
love to spend money that they don't have and they do that via
35:43
money printing. So what incentive does, you
35:47
know, do these countries have to not only make Bitcoin legal
35:53
tender but even put Bitcoin on equal footing to their to their
35:56
currencies? Because then at that point it's
35:58
game over, right? It's it's just like you said
36:01
about, you know, Donald Trump. It's it's not necessarily
36:03
important for him to be advocating for Bitcoin.
36:07
The market forces are gonna do their thing.
36:09
Just him stopping CBDC's just gives us time, right.
36:13
So yeah, what incentive do? How do you approach that in the
36:17
first place? Well, it's challenging because
36:23
if you have a strong Fiat currency, you're not
36:26
incentivized to do anything with Bitcoin unless you're able to
36:29
see past the short term and understand that all Fiat
36:32
currencies will fail eventually. It's just a matter of time,
36:36
right? And it's all relative to one
36:39
another. Everything is sort of pegged to
36:40
the US dollar in some way. So if the US dollar goes and
36:43
that's getting more and more likely, if you look at debt and
36:47
the amount that you have to pay to service that debt, it is
36:50
starting to get very cumbersome. Like they cannot keep paying
36:55
hundreds of billions of dollars to service this debt.
36:58
That's going to keep ballooning because just like with compound
37:00
interest, well, it is compound interest, but it's compound
37:03
interest on debt which is just as powerful as compound interest
37:07
on savings, right. So it's not a really good
37:10
situation I think for the whole Fiat system.
37:12
And if you can see further ahead, a few steps ahead, then
37:15
you would want to make a Bitcoin strategy and implement some form
37:20
of Bitcoin holdings either at the central bank or through
37:23
mining. And this is what we're advising
37:25
countries to do because you can see that you're future proofing
37:29
your country against the Fiat collapse.
37:31
But it is challenging and I think This is why we don't
37:33
really pursue A wealthy, well quote UN quote wealthy Western
37:38
nations to to pursue a Bitcoin strategy.
37:41
We more more focus on Latin America and other countries that
37:45
need Bitcoin and they have the demand for it right now because
37:49
they they need money they need to build roads and
37:52
infrastructures or anything like that.
37:53
So we just go where we're more needed and we'll be
37:57
opportunistic and we'll we'll try to work with Western
37:59
countries but it's really an uphill battle because it's so
38:03
insular and they're they're so unaware of the the Fiat money
38:08
system but there are inroads, right.
38:10
So in Germany you have Bitcoin in Bundestag, Bitcoin in
38:14
parliament and this initiative that's set up to educate the
38:18
politicians in Bundestag and I'll be going there to speak
38:22
later this year and they have a a stellar lineup of all these
38:24
other speakers like Block Trainer and other guys.
38:27
So we'll go and we'll try to educate the the parliament and
38:31
see what we can do. But it's not like we're going
38:34
not for for Gen. 3, we're not going to you know go all in and
38:38
focus on the Western countries. We'll, we'll do what we can, but
38:42
the efforts, the biggest payoff for our efforts is probably in
38:45
the global South, in Latin America and maybe Africa and
38:48
other countries. Gotcha.
38:50
I mean so some being from Venezuela originally, my parents
38:55
and my background, I understand the culture a little bit and I
39:00
completely 100% agree with you. And I had Jeff Booth on maybe a
39:05
couple months ago or so and he said something very similar.
39:09
He said. I'm optimistic about the global
39:11
S because they're farther away from the benefits of being able
39:17
to print their own money, right? If you're someone like
39:19
Argentina. I said this as a joke the other
39:23
day when Malay got elected. I'm like, guys, now we have a
39:26
blueprint. All we need is 150% inflation
39:29
and we can get a libertarian elected.
39:32
But but yeah, I 100% agree. Could you drop some hints?
39:37
Maybe? I don't want to put you in a
39:39
corner. What what?
39:42
You know Latin American country you're optimistic about?
39:46
Well, to see, I mean, I'm optimistic about all the
39:51
countries we've had engagements with because the presidents
39:54
there are very receptive, but they are not Bitcoiners yet,
39:58
right. So the benefit and I think part
40:00
of the misalignment of expectations is in El Salvador,
40:05
the President Buchelli was a Bitcoiner that became president.
40:08
We're starting from zero. So the presidents in these
40:10
countries are not bitcoiners first.
40:12
We're trying to get them there. So it'll take more time.
40:15
And even if we get them there, there's still a lot of
40:19
bureaucracy to deal with to implement things and different
40:22
factions and. Different ideologies at play.
40:25
So it's it is a really challenging Rd. but we are here
40:28
for the long run, right? We never expected we're going to
40:31
get a ton of countries like tomorrow, but we can engage with
40:34
a ton of countries and of that we should have a subset
40:38
relatively soon doing some concrete Bitcoin projects, maybe
40:41
mining, if not legal tender, maybe it's mining right.
40:44
But actually better than legal tender is what Malay did in
40:46
Argentina, which is deregulation.
40:48
You can use whatever you want and let the free market compete.
40:51
So there's all these different paths towards Bitcoin adoption
40:54
and we just have to be strategic and choose the best ones that we
40:58
can push forward. How do you feel about the fee
41:02
environment? So Bob Burnett, a good friend of
41:04
mine, came on the podcast a couple of weeks ago and he said
41:08
that, you know, the era of low fees is over.
41:13
Now we're heading into an area, era of, you know, this is the
41:16
most valuable real estate on the planet.
41:19
You're gonna, you know, potentially have a high fee
41:21
environment moving forward in Bitcoin's history and you know
41:25
that prices out a lot of people in a way, right?
41:28
So you know, let's say you want to have $100 worth of bit, let's
41:32
say bitcoins at, you know, half $1,000,000, a $1,000,000 and you
41:35
want to buy $100 worth of Bitcoin, You know, just to send
41:38
that $100, you're gonna be paying a, a, you know, big chunk
41:43
of that, right? So you know, of course, you
41:46
know, been in Bitcoin for eight years now.
41:48
Samsung, I'm sure you've been in Bitcoin a lot longer.
41:51
That's OK for us. We're just like fine.
41:54
But you know, for is Bitcoin for everyone?
41:57
Like, you know, like what happens to someone who just
42:00
wants to buy a small portion and their feed out?
42:03
Yeah, Bitcoin is for everyone and the fees are going to be an
42:09
issue if you want to transact on chain.
42:12
But fortunately we do have things like layer Two's like
42:14
lightning, like liquid that can enable people to transact also
42:19
fetiments too. So I think the way that we will
42:23
onboard most people is through some combination of Lightning
42:26
plus a fetamine or a liquid federation because that is
42:30
really the only way, right? I did some testing when we
42:33
launched Aqua with some of the non custodial Lightning wallets
42:37
or sorry, there's one more path to which is custodial Lightning.
42:40
But that's challenging in and of itself because you can see
42:43
wallets like wallets of Satoshi being removed from app stores or
42:46
their self removing themselves from app stores in certain
42:49
jurisdictions. So the the key is that lightning
42:55
is bound to the main chain, right?
42:56
It works really well when it's relatively cheap on the main
42:59
chain, but as soon as fees go up it all breaks.
43:02
And This is why having a a mid step in between Lightning and
43:08
the main chain like Lightning Light Liquid is useful because
43:11
you can go down to liquid and come back up.
43:13
And what we've seen is a lot of people have started using that
43:15
use case. They're using pure swap to
43:18
rebalance channels or they're using bolts to rebalance as
43:22
well. And bolts volumes for lightning
43:27
rebalancing are through the roof on liquid.
43:30
And I think this is really the only way because if you go to
43:33
look at some of the non custodial lightning wallets out
43:35
there, they'll charge you 1% to open a channel or some minimum
43:40
fee of like $11.00. So you can't really just get
43:44
someone in, I don't know Columbia to download a lightning
43:47
wallet and send them a couple Sats if it's non custodial,
43:50
right? The only way to do that is with
43:52
something like Waldo, Satoshi or with Aqua because we will swap
43:56
to Liquid. But if you want them to be, you
43:59
know, in the ideal coin operation area of self custody
44:05
and everything and non custodial, then it's not really
44:08
possible unless you're willing to pay $11.00 to send someone
44:12
100 sets. Yeah.
44:14
And I think you you, you, you better delete there for for a
44:17
second, Samsung. So you're saying that if you can
44:20
download Aqua Wallet right now, you could start receiving
44:24
Lightning transactions? Very little fees, similar
44:28
experience to Wallet of Satoshi? Yeah, exactly.
44:31
So right now it's it's not ideal for that size of a transaction
44:36
like sending less than 1000 sets because it is an atomic swap and
44:41
it is, it is a swap to Liquid. So there is like probably a 2019
44:47
cent fee right now to send and receive.
44:50
But we are working on an update that will allow us to use
44:55
unconfidential transactions or non confidential transactions on
44:57
Liquid and that will decrease the cost by a factor of 10.
45:01
So you'll be able to do that for you know two cents maybe.
45:04
And I think that's this gives you that same wallet of Satoshi
45:08
experience where you can say, hey, download the Aqua and I'll
45:12
send you 1000 Sats or 2000 Sats. Gotcha.
45:17
Very, very cool. That is really interesting.
45:21
I really, really want to play around with it now and just kind
45:24
of experiment. So I do wanna ask you this
45:28
Samson. So well, that just got me so
45:32
excited. I lost my train of thought.
45:36
OK, so part of the reason that the wallet of Satoshi pulled out
45:42
of the US was, and I posted this the other day by the way on
45:46
Twitter. And it was like and of course
45:50
they were trolling in this because we're not available in
45:54
the app stores in China, US and North Korea.
45:57
Like it was such a like that's such a strong statement.
46:00
It is. And the reason that I believe
46:04
they pulled out is because of the DOJ press conference with
46:06
finance when they literally mentioned terrorism 15 times
46:10
even though we know that less than 1% of illicit finances, you
46:13
know, used you Bitcoin. But that is a great excuse for
46:16
government, right? So is, is this like a custodial?
46:20
Is this custodial? Is it self custodial?
46:25
How does the Aqua How's Aqua Wallet work?
46:28
Yeah, so Aqua is a non custodial.
46:30
So when you create a wallet, you have one seed that generates
46:35
your Bitcoin wallet and your liquid wallet.
46:36
And that and hold on and and that's associate.
46:38
So the the main wallet of course is not custodial, but I'm saying
46:41
the lightning wallet as well is not custodial.
46:44
There is no Lightning wallet, so it's swapping from Lightning to
46:47
Liquid. So Liquid is what's holding that
46:49
balance, and then you swap back out when you send out over
46:52
Lightning again. OK, and could you explain,
46:56
because I know that Lightning is very very popular amongst
46:59
bitcoiners, but Liquid's always been around for a while now.
47:03
But it seems like the use case is starting to ramp up, and of
47:06
course people are looking looking at it.
47:08
Now what is liquid? So Liquid is a Bitcoin side
47:12
chain. It's a layer two of Bitcoin.
47:14
And I think some people were critiquing saying it's not a
47:17
layer 2, but I mean when Blockscream started developing
47:22
side chains and Liquid, this is like in 2014, 2015, we're all
47:28
calling it layer two, so we're calling it layer two.
47:30
Before many of these people that say it's not a layer 2 even knew
47:33
about Bitcoin. So it's kind of funny that way,
47:36
but it's a side chain, so it's another chain that's anchored to
47:40
Bitcoin. It's the almost the same code
47:43
base. It's like 99% the same as
47:46
Bitcoin except for you have assets in there and other things
47:48
like Confidential transactions and Liquid.
47:51
And the that software suite has largely been a testing ground
47:55
for a lot of things that eventually do make their way to
47:58
Bitcoin, like SegWit and other things.
48:00
So it's it's definitely very tightly bound to Bitcoin.
48:05
So when you want to get one Bitcoin in liquid, you have to
48:08
peg in one Bitcoin from the main chain.
48:11
So it's always a one to one relationship.
48:13
You can't have fractional Bitcoin in Liquid, so once you
48:17
have that then you can transact it with a one minute block.
48:21
Times. Fees are about 19 cents or so,
48:25
and you have confidentiality, so when you send someone a
48:28
transaction, you can't actually see the amount or asset type
48:31
that they're sending, which gives a lot of privacy benefits
48:34
to users. Absolutely.
48:36
And so another thing you you you mentioned this I think in your
48:40
tweet in regards to the $1 million Bitcoin that it was
48:43
going to be painful. I feel like the and and and I'm
48:46
sure you read this right Ben the car Man's post in relation to
48:49
the state of lightning. I don't think we're ready for
48:54
you know this hyper bitcoinization.
48:56
I don't think we're ready The Bitcoin is ready for this
49:00
massive influx of of of users you know.
49:04
So what would you say on that? Probably not and that's the the
49:07
basis of Max Payne theory. So the best case scenario I
49:12
think is Bitcoin. Price goes up very gradually
49:15
towards a million over a number of years, and we all have a lot
49:18
of time to stack SAT's and filled out everything that's
49:21
needed. And Max Payne theory says, well,
49:24
you probably won't have that time.
49:25
It's going to be a mad scramble and you know we won't be ready
49:29
with their twos and all the wallets.
49:32
We won't be ready to on board all the people and a lot of pubs
49:37
out there that have been DC ING are going to get stuck with
49:39
unspendable UTXOS because these are now, I don't know, 100,000
49:44
SAT's or something like that. So that's the idea.
49:47
Like, it's probably going to happen and catch us off guard
49:50
and we're we're all going to be unprepared.
49:52
That's the basis of Max Payne theory.
49:54
So OK, and then let me ask you something why you This is
49:59
fascinating. So why you OK Max Payne theory?
50:04
And then could you explain the theory?
50:05
Like where? Where does it come from?
50:07
It's. I think it comes from options
50:10
expiry. There's a certain point in which
50:11
the options options expire. That's Max Payne.
50:14
Like that'll cause the most losses for the most number of
50:17
people. So you can apply that, I think,
50:20
to Bitcoin in the world at at at whole.
50:24
So if Bitcoin does shoot up to 1,000,000, that's probably Max
50:29
Payne for the largest number of people.
50:31
Because instead of being able to make a material difference in
50:35
your financial, financial, economic situation by acquiring
50:38
a lot of Bitcoin, the contillionaires are going to buy
50:43
up all the Bitcoin, drive the price up, and you'll still have
50:46
this divide between the rich and the poor instead of that being
50:48
equalized. So basically, 8 billion people
50:51
are not gonna be able to get in early, they're just gonna be
50:55
earning Bitcoin AT1M per BTC. Interesting.
51:00
OK, so OK And you think, and you said something really
51:04
interesting, which is the, the almost as if Bitcoin would be an
51:09
equalizer between, you know, cuz right now the wealth inequality
51:15
is caused literally because of the Fiat money printer, right?
51:18
The more money they print, the lower middle classes are saving
51:20
and earning in Fiat and the wealthier are saving in assets.
51:24
Therefore they benefit from asset inflation.
51:27
They get richer and then everyone else just gets left
51:29
behind and and you think Bitcoin is a We'll fix that.
51:34
Well, it will fix that in some ways, but if the price rises
51:37
very rapidly, then you lose some of that fixing effect because
51:41
you're not going to get Bitcoin at sub 1,000,000 anymore.
51:45
You'll be getting it at, you know, a million or more even,
51:49
right, Sam? So you're making me incredibly
51:51
bullish right now also also, energy is coming through the
51:56
screen. Well, is the price going up,
51:58
that's the best but. It is it.
52:00
It actually went from 4040 thousand to now it's back to
52:03
4041.5. Yeah, but the main point is all
52:07
of this is a rounding error, right?
52:08
If you believe that Bitcoin is going to become the new base
52:12
currency of a financial system and the money of the world, then
52:16
it doesn't matter if it's 0.04 million per Bitcoin or if it's
52:21
0.5 million per Bitcoin. OK and so and by the way, I'm
52:26
obviously my show's name is simply Bitcoin.
52:29
I'm I'm on the camp of hyper bitcoinization.
52:33
What what is the timeline here? So are we talking about
52:37
$1,000,000 Bitcoin with, you know, you're saying basically
52:40
very, very soon, but let's say it takes a little bit longer.
52:43
Let's say we take the least painful route, the less painful
52:46
route, right, And give everyone an opportunity to stack cheaper
52:50
Sats. And by the way, I love the
52:53
denominator thing. I think it's absolutely
52:55
hilarious and I'm gonna adopt it myself to .04.
52:58
It's so good. It's so good.
53:01
But let's say you know it it takes a little bit slower.
53:04
You know, I think it was Kathy Wood that released her base, Her
53:09
her bear, her base, her bull. Her bear was 250 K her her base
53:15
was 650 K and her bull was 1.5. And this was by the year 2030.
53:22
Where do you stand on that? Well, I think it, it should
53:30
reach something like a million within the next year.
53:32
I would say that's my more Oh my God estimate.
53:36
And the reason why I put it, I front loaded it and I said it'll
53:39
be very, very soon before the halving is because typically we
53:43
make new all times high. We make new all time highs after
53:47
the halving, after some number of months after the halving.
53:51
And that would just mean that there is a a cycle and I don't
53:55
think that we will continue to have that cycle.
53:58
So that means it has to be before the halving and before
54:01
halving means very, very soon. Got you.
54:04
But yeah, like when we make our so the the 1,000,000 thing is
54:08
really for fun, it's for entertainment.
54:10
And I some people are really angry saying you shouldn't make
54:13
predictions, but I think bit pain also gets a lot of Flack
54:16
for it too because he's also making it.
54:17
But we don't believe that you can one, predict and two,
54:22
Bitcoin is gonna go to a million sooner or later.
54:24
So it's just like we're predicting, you know, next year
54:28
there's gonna be a summer, right?
54:30
It's inevitability. So it's it's for fun, but it's
54:36
really just a number out there that we can anchor to and you
54:40
know, have fun with and entertain ourselves as we go
54:42
into this next bull market. Absolutely 100% and and so and
54:46
we were talking about the diminishing returns thing
54:50
earlier on. Right.
54:51
So and I think that's an American huddle did a great job
54:55
covering this you know and he, I think he put like a Squirtle
54:58
with the with the saxophone like someone tells me that's like we
55:01
can't hit 500. My brain is thinking this so OK
55:07
so then if you were to put I hate getting into price
55:10
prediction stuff, maybe let's just avoid that topic
55:13
altogether. But OK, I think I forgot one
55:17
point. I was saying when we make
55:21
projections for things like Bitcoin bonds, we use a 60%
55:26
median returns every year. So if we started from 30
55:33
something last year in 10 years time, we should be at just about
55:38
3 million per coin. So that's a very, very
55:41
conservative estimate and that's based on historical price
55:44
appreciation after 2014 or so. So you know 1,000,000 in the
55:51
next couple years is almost definitely in line with a very
55:54
conservative estimate. Yeah, yeah.
55:58
And I I would agree with that. And let me let me ask you
56:01
something else. So you know we are getting to
56:03
the top of the hour and I do want to be respectful of your
56:05
time. What are you most excited for
56:10
within the next 5 to 10 years? Like what?
56:13
What do you, I mean obviously nation state adoption, but what
56:17
is you know at at the top of your mind?
56:20
What is something that you feel so passionate about?
56:22
You're like wow this is this is going to happen.
56:24
I'm a content creator so for me it's like media Bitcoin content
56:29
cross crossing, the breaking the Bitcoin echo chamber.
56:33
Now it's being talked about in the mainstream consciousness as
56:35
a content creator. That's my dream.
56:37
That's what I'm seeing. That's what I hope for.
56:39
So what are you most excited for, Samsung Mau?
56:43
Well, I think I'm most excited about reaching the state of
56:47
hyper bitcoinization where everyone is just using Bitcoin.
56:50
And I think we'll we'll have so much more efficiencies in the
56:53
world where you can travel and just spend Bitcoin without
56:56
having to go to the little kiosk and converting your your your
57:01
dollars to pesos or EUR or whatever.
57:05
And you just save a lot of time. And I think it'll make
57:08
international trade better too if everyone is trading on that
57:12
Bitcoin standard. So really it's just being able
57:16
to enjoy life on on Bitcoin whether you're traveling or
57:20
trying to save. Because right now, if you're
57:22
trying to save, you can't really do it in the Fiat system.
57:25
You have to invest your money to save.
57:26
But on a Bitcoin standard, you can simply save.
57:29
So Bitcoin just streamlines so many things when we all adopt it
57:33
as a standard. 100% and I think the Aqua wallet is just one step
57:37
towards that, enabling that seamlessness where we are
57:42
currently in time. Anyways, Samson, this was truly
57:46
an honor. I really, really enjoyed this
57:48
conversation. Guys.
57:48
Check out the Aqua wallet, go to aquawallet.iocheckoutjan3.com
57:54
and Samson, thank you so much for coming on the show and hope
57:57
to have you back on in a couple months or so.
57:59
Yeah, Let's do it. Thanks.
58:00
Really appreciate it guys. Thank you so much for tuning
58:03
into another episode of Simply Bitcoin IRL.
58:05
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58:12
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58:15
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58:16
Enjoy your weekend.