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3.5 "What Happens In Alberta Does Not Stay in Alberta" · Public Good

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello, I'm Shannon Moore.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: And I'm Justin Fraser.
• 0:03
  Speaker 3: And this is Public Good on the Prairies. Today we
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: are speaking about the parental rights movement.
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  Speaker 1: Our conversation focuses on the parental rights groups that are
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: operating in Alberta, their tactics, and the way these groups
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  Speaker 1: have impacted legislation in the province. We consider the motivations
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: of these groups and and the broader impact they're having
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  Speaker 1: on public education and the public good.
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  Speaker 2: Joining us to discuss this is Heather Ganshorn. Heather is
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  Speaker 2: a research director of Support Our Students Alberta, a non-partisan,
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  Speaker 2: non-profit public education advocacy group fighting for the rights of
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  Speaker 2: all children to an equitable and accessible public education system.
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  Speaker 2: She's an academic librarian and the mother of two children
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  Speaker 2: in the public education system. Heather recently published a primer
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  Speaker 2: with the Parkland Institute titled Challenging Parental Rights.
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  Speaker 1: Heather Ganshorn, welcome to Public Good on the Prairies. Great
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  Speaker 1: to have you again. We've had you on the podcast before,
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  Speaker 1: but we wanted to speak to you again for this
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  Speaker 1: prairie franchise of Public Good because you have an incredible
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: depth of knowledge about what's going on in Alberta. And
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  Speaker 1: since speaking to you last, you have produced a primer
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  Speaker 1: for on parental rights for the Parkland Institute. And I
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  Speaker 1: just wanted to start off by asking why you chose
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  Speaker 1: to partner with Parkland to publish Challenging Parental Rights, a
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  Speaker 1: primer for parents, students, educators, and advocates.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so actually the Parkland Institute approached Support Our Students
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  Speaker 4: and myself with a request to write Something that could
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  Speaker 4: very much be a primer for them. And for those
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  Speaker 4: who aren't familiar with who they are, Parkland is a
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  Speaker 4: nonpartisan think tank or research institute, policy research institute at
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  Speaker 4: the University of Alberta. They have lots of great reports
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  Speaker 4: on the state of pretty much everything in Alberta right now,
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  Speaker 4: health care, education. So I was familiar with their work,
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  Speaker 4: but when I went and took a look at the
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  Speaker 4: reports on their website, I was a little bit concerned
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  Speaker 4: because a lot of their other reports are written by
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  Speaker 4: people with PhDs in the thing they're writing about, which
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  Speaker 4: is not my background. I don't have an academic background
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  Speaker 4: in education. I come to this issue as an activist
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  Speaker 4: who got involved in public education issues when my kids
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  Speaker 4: started public school. But in conversation with them, it was
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  Speaker 4: clear that they wanted to do a bit more of
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  Speaker 4: a layperson's guide to what is behind this parental rights movement.
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  Speaker 4: And I thought having come through that sort of educational
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  Speaker 4: journey myself and also having a background where besides being
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  Speaker 4: a research librarian in my day job, I have a
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  Speaker 4: journalism degree. I've worked in educational publishing. I felt like
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  Speaker 4: maybe I did have the skills to kind of bridge
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  Speaker 4: that gap between current events and what I've learned about
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  Speaker 4: what's going on in the U.S. that's influencing Alberta and
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: then some of the academic research.
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  Speaker 1: So do you know why they selected to do parental
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  Speaker 1: rights as an issue for a primer? Like what were
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  Speaker 1: they hoping for, particularly because its target audience is parents, students,
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  Speaker 1: educators and advocates?
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  Speaker 4: Well, there was a lot going on at the time,
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  Speaker 4: I think. We did have municipal elections coming up in
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  Speaker 4: the province and school trustee elections are.
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  Speaker 5: Part of that.
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  Speaker 4: There was probably a slate of parental rights candidates running
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  Speaker 4: for school board in Calgary, certainly, and possibly other places
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  Speaker 4: that had the backing of some of these organizations. So
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  Speaker 4: I think they wanted people to know that this was
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  Speaker 4: happening and where it was coming from.
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  Speaker 5: We were at that time.
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  Speaker 4: You know, probably heading into a teacher's strike, which did
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  Speaker 4: end up happening. And there was a lot of heated
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  Speaker 4: rhetoric around, you know, teachers and sort of attempts, I think,
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  Speaker 4: to discredit public school teachers and unionized teachers in particular.
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  Speaker 4: So I think it was really a timely time for
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  Speaker 4: something like this.
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  Speaker 2: Heather, like So many authors, you place parental rights in
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  Speaker 2: quotes in your writing. And we're curious, why have you
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  Speaker 2: made this choice in your writing? And what are you
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  Speaker 2: hoping to communicate about the parental rights movement in doing so?
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  Speaker 5: I'm a parent.
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  Speaker 4: I have two children in the public school system. I'm not,
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  Speaker 4: you know... foregoing my rights by any means. We all
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  Speaker 4: have rights. Parents do have rights, as all citizens have rights.
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  Speaker 4: And we safeguard our children's rights, of course, and children
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  Speaker 4: have rights too. So however, I think the people and
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  Speaker 4: organizations that describe themselves as parental rights are misrepresenting both
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  Speaker 4: the parental part and the rights part. So first off,
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  Speaker 4: the implication that this is a It is absolutely not.
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  Speaker 4: In the US, parental rights organizations like Moms for Liberty
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  Speaker 4: have been shown to have close ties to the Republican Party,
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  Speaker 4: and there's been a lot of reporting about the sort
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  Speaker 4: of dark money donations that they receive from far-right groups.
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  Speaker 4: In Alberta and in Canada, I think it's a little
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  Speaker 4: less apparent how these groups are funded, but they are
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  Speaker 4: very much, some of them are explicitly Christian nationalist groups
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  Speaker 4: like Action for Canada. Within Alberta, we have Parents for
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  Speaker 4: Choice in Education, who seem to be quite religious. And
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  Speaker 4: their executive director, by the way, is not a parent.
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  Speaker 4: Not that you have to be a parent to care
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  Speaker 4: about education, but I think you should be a parent
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  Speaker 4: if you're claiming to speak for parents. So I think
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  Speaker 4: it's fair to ask what their angle is. I'm a
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  Speaker 4: parent in the public school system. I've sat on school
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  Speaker 4: councils for years. And the actual parent concerns that I
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  Speaker 4: hear about on school councils, which, by the way, are
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  Speaker 4: the legitimate organizations for parents' perspectives in the school system,
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  Speaker 4: people talk at those meetings about, why are there 40
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  Speaker 4: kids in my kid's high school class? Why can't my
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  Speaker 4: special needs child get the supports they need? Why are
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  Speaker 4: we fundraising for essentials in the classroom and not field trips,
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  Speaker 4: but increasingly core supplies? So those are the things that
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  Speaker 4: I hear parents talking about, not, oh, maybe my kid
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  Speaker 4: is in a class with a transgender kid.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you make that point in your writing,
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  Speaker 1: how it's such a distraction. Parents are not mired in
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  Speaker 1: conversations about books and you know banning a child from
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  Speaker 1: seeing sexually explicit content in books in libraries that's not
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  Speaker 1: what they are focused on they're focused on class size
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  Speaker 1: they're focused on resources for their for their children and
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  Speaker 1: these conversations are moving away from what parents actually want
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  Speaker 1: to be talking about under the label or veil of
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  Speaker 1: parental rights.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah and then the second part is is the rights
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  Speaker 4: part and again whose rights like These parental rights framing often,
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  Speaker 4: especially in cases.
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  Speaker 5: That go to court outside of sort of.
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  Speaker 4: Education topics, but often the types of things that make
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  Speaker 4: it to like the Supreme Court are things like corporal
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  Speaker 4: punishment and parents wanting the right to punish their children
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  Speaker 4: or to deny them medical treatment on the basis of
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  Speaker 4: their religion. So, you know, this is a framing that
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  Speaker 4: pits parents' rights against children's rights rather than seeing parents
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  Speaker 4: as victims. responsible for advocating for their children's rights. And
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  Speaker 4: I don't think we have a government that cares about
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  Speaker 4: children's rights here. We have a premier who has suggested
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  Speaker 4: that inclusion in schools is something that special needs children
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  Speaker 4: must earn rather than framing it as all children have
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  Speaker 4: the right to an inclusive education. We're in a situation
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  Speaker 4: in this province right now where school boards for this
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  Speaker 4: fall are refusing to register immigrant children in September if
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  Speaker 4: their status has lapped because the province has said it
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  Speaker 4: will not fund those children. So that is an actual
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  Speaker 4: violation of children's right to education. So, yeah, I'm happy
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  Speaker 4: to have a conversation about rights. I would love to
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  Speaker 4: have a wide ranging conversation on that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. You've mentioned a few of the groups that are
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  Speaker 1: operating already in Alberta. Some of them are easy to
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  Speaker 1: decipher because they actually use the word parents. But who
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  Speaker 1: are some of the groups and what are their tactics
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  Speaker 1: to undermine public education?
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  Speaker 4: So there's a few different groups. I think there's probably
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  Speaker 4: three major groups. So the first is Take Back Alberta,
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  Speaker 4: which is the group that basically took over the United
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  Speaker 4: Conservative Party from within, put their people on a lot
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  Speaker 4: of the constituency boards and on the party executive. They
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  Speaker 4: credit themselves for kicking out Jason Kenney and installing Daniel
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  Speaker 4: Smith in his place. And there is a perception that
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  Speaker 4: a lot of the things she's doing now, she's doing
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  Speaker 4: to placate this very socially conservative faction of the party,
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  Speaker 4: including having a referendum on separation this coming fall. So
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  Speaker 4: they have called for taking over school boards and library
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  Speaker 4: boards in a very similar fashion to what we've seen
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  Speaker 4: in the U.S. They post a lot of inflammatory stuff
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  Speaker 4: online about public education. Their founder or leader, David Parker,
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  Speaker 4: I believe was homeschooled. So, you know, has not got
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  Speaker 4: personal experience of public education. They've gone a little quiet
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  Speaker 4: of late due to some legal troubles. They've been involved
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  Speaker 4: in the leak of an Alberta voter list.
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  Speaker 5: That is a.
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  Speaker 4: Major, major illegal thing to do. So they're, I think,
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  Speaker 4: occupied with other issues right now and very occupied with
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  Speaker 4: the referendum. The second group that seems to have a
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  Speaker 4: lot of influence is Parents for Choice in Education, which
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  Speaker 4: is kind of Alberta's answer to Moms for Liberty. And
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  Speaker 4: what's concerning about them is that they really seem to
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  Speaker 4: have special access to this government, to cabinet ministers, to
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  Speaker 4: the education minister, to the premier.
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  Speaker 5: And they basically held the.
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  Speaker 4: Pen behind a lot of these recent education policies. So
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  Speaker 4: they published an op-ed some years ago saying that sex
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  Speaker 4: education should be opt-in. Everyone should have to opt in
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  Speaker 4: their child rather than what was the existing system of
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  Speaker 4: you had to opt out if you didn't want your
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  Speaker 4: child to receive any education around human sexuality. So they
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  Speaker 4: basically called for this and word for word, it was
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  Speaker 4: put into legislation. So now we all have to opt
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  Speaker 4: in not only to the human sexuality unit, but any
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  Speaker 4: content in any subject that discusses gender or sexuality. So
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  Speaker 4: I mean, that's very, very broad. And I think probably
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  Speaker 4: is having a chilling effect because teachers just don't, you know,
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  Speaker 4: why assign a novel that has a theme that maybe
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  Speaker 4: when you could just save yourself some grief. And so
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  Speaker 4: they also were one of the two groups that met
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  Speaker 4: privately with the education minister to, I would argue, craft
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  Speaker 4: the school library book ban that was introduced by the province,
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  Speaker 4: along with Action for Canada, which is the other major group.
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  Speaker 4: And they are really interesting. If you've never checked out
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  Speaker 4: their website, it is a wild ride. They're an explicitly
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  Speaker 4: Christian nationalist group. They're headquartered in BC. So again, we
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  Speaker 4: see these outside groups They do have an Alberta chapter,
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  Speaker 4: I believe, but certainly their leadership is in B.C. and
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  Speaker 4: they're the ones who've been, you know, they attend United
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  Speaker 4: Conservative Party fundraising dinners. They have access, again, to meet
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  Speaker 4: personally with the education minister. Their slogan is faith, family
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  Speaker 4: and freedom. And they champion a lot of culture war
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  Speaker 4: issues that seem to all go together. you know, anti-abortion, anti-globalist,
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  Speaker 4: anti-public education. They champion biblical homeschooling and they have a
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  Speaker 4: parental rights resource kit on their website that I really
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  Speaker 4: want to quote directly from it. It states, parental rights
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  Speaker 4: are under attack by our own government and unelected global elites.
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  Speaker 4: who are working in concert to dismantle parental authority and
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  Speaker 4: control children through education policy and international influence. So there's
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  Speaker 4: a lot to unpack there. You can kind of see
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  Speaker 4: in that language that parental rights is very tied into
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  Speaker 4: a lot of other far-right preoccupations and conspiracy narratives about
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  Speaker 4: global conspiracies to control us all.
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  Speaker 5: So those are the big three.
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  Speaker 4: And then there's other small groups and various right-wing influencers
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  Speaker 4: who just sort of keep up a constant narrative about
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  Speaker 4: public schools indoctrinating kids, bashing the Alberta Teachers Association, generally
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  Speaker 4: trying to push school choice and private schools while also
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  Speaker 4: advocating for greater government intervention in public schools.
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  Speaker 2: I really appreciate how you put on display and name
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  Speaker 2: these various groups that are involved in the parental rights
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  Speaker 2: movement in Alberta. Going back to your primer for the
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  Speaker 2: Parkland Institute, you write, and I'm quoting from you here,
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  Speaker 2: that the connection between privatization and the parental rights movement
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  Speaker 2: may not seem obvious at first, but the two were
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  Speaker 2: closely linked. And so we're curious, what is that relationship
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  Speaker 2: between the parental rights movement and privatization? So in other words,
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  Speaker 2: how is privatization emerging or expanding in Alberta as a
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  Speaker 2: result of this parental rights movement?
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  Speaker 4: Well, for the religious right, I think privatization is a
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  Speaker 4: way to control on a micro level what their kids
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  Speaker 4: are learning. And they do need public funds in order
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  Speaker 4: to do that, because it would be challenging for some
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  Speaker 4: of these religious schools to operate without that 70% per
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  Speaker 4: student subsidy that private schools get.
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  Speaker 5: Some of them do.
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  Speaker 4: Some of them do refuse the funding, and I'll be
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  Speaker 4: talking about that in a bit. But, you know, these
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  Speaker 4: private schools are not... For the most part, like what
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  Speaker 4: you might imagine from watching, you know, Dead Poets Society,
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  Speaker 4: these are not like elite private academies. They are Christian
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  Speaker 4: schools that probably operate on fairly thin margins. So it
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  Speaker 4: would be challenging for them, you know, they want to
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  Speaker 4: capture some of those public funds. And of course, If
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  Speaker 4: you stoke fear over what kids are learning in public schools,
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  Speaker 4: that also drives more customers to your school. So for
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  Speaker 4: the mainstream part of the school choice movement, I think
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  Speaker 4: like some of the more urban, secular type folks, choice
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  Speaker 4: itself is increasingly framed as a parental right. So, for example,
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  Speaker 4: in 2015, the Alberta Bill of Rights was amended to
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  Speaker 4: include the right of parents to make informed decisions respecting
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: the education of their children. which of course is a
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  Speaker 4: right that parents already had and were exercising. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: in this province, you can choose public, Catholic, Francophone, French immersion, Montessori.
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  Speaker 4: Like there's no shortage, at least if you live in
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  Speaker 4: a city. But this sort of language, you know, normalizes
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  Speaker 4: that we should subsidize every decision with our tax dollars.
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  Speaker 4: And then in terms of how this gets enacted, I
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  Speaker 4: would argue that privatization is now official government policy under
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  Speaker 4: the UCP. They are expanding charter schools, which are publicly
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  Speaker 4: funded but privately operated, so they're not allowed to charge tuition,
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  Speaker 4: but they are allowed to curate their student body and
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: decide who they will accept. And then they're also expanding
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  Speaker 4: private schools, which currently get 70% of the per-student funding
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  Speaker 4: that public schools do and are allowed to charge tuition
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  Speaker 4: on top of that.
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  Speaker 5: So they are now.
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  Speaker 4: Allocating funds to build private schools. We're going to be
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  Speaker 4: the first province to do that. Our premier wrote an
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  Speaker 4: op-ed before she was elected suggesting that we should defund
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: public schools. So they're not really even hiding it. They're
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: just saying it straight up. And we've had two education
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  Speaker 4: ministers who have very actively pursued a quite adversarial relationship
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  Speaker 4: with both school boards, who they are supposed to be
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: collaborating with, and then the Alberta Teachers Association. So they've
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: enacted policies to basically remove the Alberta Teachers Association's role
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: in teacher discipline. The province is now going to take
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: that over. And they also are just constantly micromanaging school boards,
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: intruding on their areas of decision-making, hitting them with book
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: bans that they then have to carry out. They're taking
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: away their responsibilities. So, for example, new public schools... are
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: not going to be owned by school boards anymore. They're
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: going to be owned by the province and leased by
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: the school boards. So that has implications for local control
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  Speaker 4: of assets. School boards can no longer sanction or dismiss
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: a board member for code of conduct violations. So they're
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: really weakening the sorts of professional self-regulation, local democratic controls
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: that public education depends on At the same time that
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: they're empowering private entities to operate schools without much oversight.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: And the more socially conservative element of the school choice
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  Speaker 4: movement loves this because they want to argue that charter
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  Speaker 4: and private school boards are more representative and responsive to
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  Speaker 4: their customers than public school boards. And, you know, they,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: they want to weaken regulations too around who can be
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: credentialed and recognized as a teacher, particularly in religious schools.
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  Speaker 2: What a, comprehensive analysis of what's going on in Alberta
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: right now. That's incredible. As you're talking, you're highlighting and
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: naming all these different ways that privatization is happening. And
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: I'm really reminded of Sue Winton's work and others, Henley
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: and Young and Mockler et al.
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  Speaker 5: I've read Sue's book, by the way. It's excellent.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And that's what I'm thinking of here, right? Of
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: this public school ideal. And in there, Dr. Winton talks
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: about universal access to education, like these are what public education,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: this is the ideal, these five things are universal access,
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  Speaker 2: it's paid for by the government, so publicly funded, equal opportunity,
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  Speaker 2: that political processes are public, they're done in the public,
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  Speaker 2: and that it serves the public interest. And we're seeing,
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  Speaker 2: as you just highlighted there, all these different ways that
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: privatization is happening along these five characteristics of what or
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: how we could define what public education is or what
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: the public school ideal is. And it's amazing how it's
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: all wrapped up in the parental rights movement is connected
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: and has its, to use a word from Shannon, its
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: tentacles are everywhere in this public school ideal and it's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: privatizing it. This is a multifaceted operation going on.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: And the other thing I would say is I and
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you've written about this before, Heather, in your piece in
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: critical education. I think your answer demonstrated the way it's
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: about advancing choice, but also still asserting control about what's
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: happening in public schools. It's like it's not good enough
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to just leave and create schools for yourself. They still
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: want to control, like you said, with the opt in,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: et cetera, as an example of that.
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think, you know, pick a lane. Are you
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  Speaker 5: in or are you out?
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  Speaker 4: Like, you don't get to leave and take your children
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: and your funding and then still decide that you are
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: going to set the agenda for everybody else's kids.
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  Speaker 1: I think the other thing that is advancing privatization in
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: this moment is a convenient alliance, and you've written about
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: this as well before, of neolibs who want to marketize
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: education and neoconservatives who want to advance traditional religious conservative
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: interests either in public schools. or for their children in
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: choice options. And I think both of these reform movements,
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: while ideologically distinct, see the parental rights movement as an
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: opportunity to both kind of get what they want out
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: of public education. And I wondered if you could speak
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: about this convenient alliance and how it's extra dangerous for
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: public education and the public good.
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: I think there is some overlap. There's definitely some socially
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: conservative folks who also think government should be run like
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: a business or whatever. They're not completely distinct, but they
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: don't 100% overlap. I think the goal of some more
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: neoliberal-minded governments is really to defund public education. It's the
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: second most expensive social program after healthcare, which they're also
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: working very hard to defund in some provinces. So They
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: just like the idea of fragmentation and privatization because you
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: can reduce government funding over time by giving people a
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: subsidy and getting them to top it up with their
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: own funds. So you see them actually making the argument
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: that private schools save the taxpayer money. In terms of
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: selling this vision to the public with more of an
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: empowerment narrative, this works. The neoliberal view sees education and
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: other public services as a marketplace and families who are
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: customers who should be able to shop where they like.
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: And I guess that's empowering to some. But if that's
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: how you approach the issue, then if you want your
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: own school choice, you really have to support the right
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: of anyone to choose whatever they want, including things that
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: you might not personally agree with. So you're really saying,
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: you know, there's no business that nobody has any business
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: to say collectively our children have a right to anything.
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: That's just something parents can decide for their kids. So again,
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: the focus is on the right of the parents to
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: choose and not the educational rights of children. And the
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: default assumption that's baked in is that all parents at
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: all times are always making better decisions for their children
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: than the education system. And it's like, it's kind of
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: hard to argue with that. Like as a parent, I
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: feel I'm making the best decisions for my children. But like,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: I also know adults who, you know, in retrospect, aren't
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: super keen on some of the decisions their parents made
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: for them. So I think we have to appreciate that.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: you know, this is a complex issue. The social conservatives, meanwhile,
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: understand that they have to pay some lip service to
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: this choice narrative to justify extracting public subsidies for their
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: own schools. But like we've discussed, even after they opt
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: out of public education, they still meddle in it because
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: they understand that public schools are socializing institutions that shape
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: the next generation. And they very much want to say
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: in shaping that next generation in a more culturally conservative way.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: Like Jason Kenney years ago at a conservative conference basically said,
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: you know, that schools are teaching the young collectivist ideologies
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: and that's a nut we have to crack. So this
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: has been a long standing preoccupation for conservatives. And so
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: this is why even though like we see them doing
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: things like lobbying for book book bans or opt in
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: only sex education, and they're working to implement these kinds
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: of things in the public schools that they don't send
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: their own kids to. And, you know, this this does
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: create dangerous conditions for public education over time. And there
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: were two stories in Alberta in the news just this
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: week that I think are really illustrative. So the first
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: one was a news report that a staff member at
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: a Mennonite private school in the province was criminally charged
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: with hitting a child with a machine belt. So this is,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: to be clear, these schools apparently are registered private schools.
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: They are not accredited and funded. So in Alberta, you
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: can say no to the government funding if you want
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: to retain the ability to run your school however you want,
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: not teach the curriculum, not hire credentialed teachers. So this
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: is listed on Alberta Education's website as a registered private school.
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: And apparently corporal punishment is written into the constitution of
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: this network of three schools and parents sign off on it.
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: And so, yeah, we're not publicly funding them, but I
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: would come back to the idea that we're still, our
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: province's children are still in these schools and we don't
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: really know who's teaching them.
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: What are they learning?
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: And what's being you know what's happening in these schools
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: so you know the right likes to say oh we
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: don't know what's happening in public schools well you can
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: find out if you come to your school council meeting
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: once in a while but in these schools it really
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: does seem like you know there are some troubling things
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: sometimes and then the other example that happened this week
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: of of the choice model failing kids was another news
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: story about a newish calgary private school That has had
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: a mass exodus of staff. The principal was fired. Nobody
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: was told why. Parents apparently are just finding out about
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: this now. So, you know, August, not a great time.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: And they they're kind of wondering what to do for September.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: So these are examples of how Wild West the school
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: choice landscape can be like there is. Once you give
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: up public oversight of these schools or make them accountable
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: as a private business and these options proliferate, there's no
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: way to regulate or standardize or even keep on top
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: of what's happening. And so those are like the granular impacts.
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: And then just bigger picture, I do think democracy suffers
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: when schools stop being accountable to the public good and
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: start being seen as a consumer good that you just
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: pick and choose like a pair of pants. Or when
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: a sizable number of people are led to believe that
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: public schools have a sinister indoctrination agenda with regard to kids.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: And to me, it's really tied to this bigger far-right
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: effort to erode trust in all of our public systems.
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: So public schools, universities, healthcare, public libraries are all under
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: attack right now.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: In your scholarship, Heather, you focus both on how what
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: we're witnessing in Alberta is distinct and yet also connected
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: to broader contexts. And can you speak to this idea
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: of distinction and connection a little bit? And like, what
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: would you say to people outside of Alberta that may
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: look at the province and think, oh, well, that's just Alberta?
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: I guess I would say Alberta is not Vegas. What
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: happens in Alberta does not stay in Alberta. And I
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: actually think it's, you know, maybe this is OK.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: This is maybe not. You can tell me what you
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: think of this.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: I think people in the rest of the country like
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: to point at Alberta and say that's happening over there.
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: And that's very comforting. Like it's a them and us thing.
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: But you know what?
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: A lot of the major figures in Alberta's right-wing movement
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: have moved here from other places. Half the separatists seem
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: to be originally from Ontario.
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: So thanks.
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: I think Alberta is seen as a friendly testbed for
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: right-wing policies on many fronts before they're rolled out in
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: other places. So we were the first province to subsidize
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: private schools. but now several provinces do. I've seen, I
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: think it was maybe the Fraser Institute calling to introduce
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: Alberta style charter schools in other provinces. We've talked about
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: what those are. So it's important to realize, I think
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: that every region in Canada is fighting these culture war
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: and privatization fights. Saskatchewan has had some pretty widely reported
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: scandals involving private Christian schools that receive public funding. And
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: there've been far right attempts to capture school boards in
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: several provinces. I understand Saskatchewan Saskatchewan is about to have
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: school board elections and there's a group in Regina that's
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: running some very conspiratorial narratives and trying to influence those
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: trustee elections. So this is a North American problem. It's
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: not an Alberta problem.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that response. And I think
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: while we're not doing public good on the West Coast yet,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: that's a discussion that's coming up in BC as well,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: because every single ward is running a parental parents choice
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: BC candidate. So this isn't just an Alberta thing. You
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: offer suggestions of resistance at the end of your primer.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Can you outline a few of Other than listening to
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: this podcast so that people can find out what's actually
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: going on in Alberta, because you've done the work and
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: you've researched and you are very clear on what's happening
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: and how it's all connected. What do you think that
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: the average parent, educator, citizen of Alberta and beyond could
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: do to respond to the parental rights movement?
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: First, I want to acknowledge that in the short term,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: people are feeling very bleak and tapped out right now
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: in Alberta. There's not an obvious clear path. There's been
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: a lot of body blows over the last year to
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: public education in this province and to the institutions that
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: might act as safeguards. So I think people are feeling
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: a little depleted and that's valid. So we had a
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: month-long teachers strike. Over 90% of the Alberta Teachers Association
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: members voted to strike. They had very strong support from
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: the public. And they were legislated back to work and
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: the government invoked the notwithstanding clause to shield itself from
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: court challenges. And for all of a week or two,
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: there was talk of a general strike because this notwithstanding
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: clause really affects every person's labor rights, but they couldn't
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: marshal the solidarity to do it. School boards are being disempowered,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: as I mentioned. So while it's good that the parental
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: rights candidates who ran for school boards last year were defeated,
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: I think school boards are feeling they can't stand strong
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: when this government does things like implementing book bans or
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: pressuring them not to admit children of lapsed workers. In
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: terms of grassroots activism, too, we had a lot of mobilization.
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: And this does make me hopeful, even though some of
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: these movements ran into obstacles. So we did have a
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: petition for a referendum. So the UCP introduced legislation making
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: it quite easy or easier than it had been to
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: gather signatures to force a referendum question. And so, you know,
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: they did this, in my opinion, to help their separatist friends.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: But other people have taken advantage of that to move
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: forward petitions. So there was one around... defunding private schools
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: and redirecting those funds back to the public system. It
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: unfortunately didn't gather enough signatures. And then there was also
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: a recall petition in the education minister's writing that also
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: didn't gather enough signatures. So people might feel discouraged by that.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: But I do think for the longer term, I'm hoping
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: that after people regroup, you know, these activities are really
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: unusual for Alberta. I think this is a new thing.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: And I think it was good because it brought people
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: together in person, not just social media activism. It built
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: some networks, built some skills. So I hope that going forward,
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: some of these people will be, you know, they've been
• 28:41
  Speaker 4: activated now and they might think about where do we
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: go from here. In terms of education issues, and if
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: you're wondering how you can get involved, join your school council.
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: There's like five people, maybe, who come to every meeting.
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: And this is where you can learn what's going on
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: in your school. It's a great reality check against some
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: of the narratives that you hear about schools indoctrinating kids
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: or whatever. It's also a place where you can start
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: connecting those dots between schools. you know, some of the
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: challenges that our schools are dealing with in this province
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: and maybe government policies. And we've seen groups sort of
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: coalescing around school councils. So in Edmonton, there's a group
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: called the Edmonton Public School Advocacy Network that really was
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: started by some concerned school council parents so that school
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: councils could talk to one another. And in Calgary, there
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: are also some people working to connect school councils. If
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: you're in a union, I think now is the time
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: to get more actively involved. So for me, the strike
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: did motivate me to get more involved in my own union.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: I what's happening in education is happening throughout the public sector.
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: And I think unions are some of the strongest organizations
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: we have to fight some of these cuts and privatization efforts.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: So I do hope that the ATA, again, I think
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: a lot of people are discouraged, but I do hope
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: that they will emerge from this strike situation with a
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: lot of members maybe activated to get more involved and
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: maybe look at where they need to go from here.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: Because I think they do need some new voices to
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: give that a bit of a think. And then, you know,
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: consider running for your school board or getting involved in
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: party politics to advocate for education and the other issues
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: that you care about. Everyone can join the local constituency
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: for whatever political party they support. Personally, I feel very
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: frustrated that in Alberta right now, In my opinion, we
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: don't have any parties with strong policies to offer on
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: public education. And we see that parties are pushed around
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: by their bases. They respond when the people opening their
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: wallets or putting in the volunteer hours tell them what's
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: important to them. And finally, we have a referendum coming
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: up this fall that is not just about separation. There
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: are nine other questions on that ballot, very loaded, convoluted,
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: and deliberately confusing questions. And some of those questions touch
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: on things like whether immigrant children should be able to
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: access free education. So we absolutely need to get out
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: and vote and defeat these questions. You can request a
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: mail-in ballot. It is going to be chaos on the
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: day of, so... If you can vote by mail, you
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: should really register with Elections Alberta to do that. And
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: if you have time, volunteering with a group like Alberta's
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: Voice that is organizing to raise awareness of what is
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: behind these questions, or at least visiting their website to
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: read the background on what these questions really are all
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: about would be a really good thing to do.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Heather, thank you so much for sharing your insights and
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: your perspectives today. The situation feels bleak in Alberta, and
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: yet I'm inspired by the work you're doing, by the way, again,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: that you're naming all that's going on, you're identifying this,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: you're calling it out so that we can challenge and
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: resist it. I'm hopeful and I'm confident that our listeners
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: will be able to take a lot from this conversation
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: and to get involved, whether that's in Alberta or in
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: their own context. So Heather, again, thank you so much.
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: Thanks for having me on.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: So Shannon, what struck you about that conversation with Heather?
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Everything. I love talking to Heather. Heather comes prepared and
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I'm always looking for an
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: episode title and she zinged off about 50 in that discussion.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: And I have so much to talk about in relation
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: to that. But I really loved when she said the
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: parental rights movement is misrepresenting the parent part and the
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: rights part when she's bringing up the fact of which
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: parents and whose rights. And I think that If you
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: could actually get people to listen to that, the idea
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: that these groups are only representing the views of a
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: small group of parents, or as Heather pointed out in
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: the interview, one of the heads of the parental rights
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: groups that's in operation is not even a parent themselves.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: And then when we're advancing the rights of some people,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I think often under the guise of religious rights, we're
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: undermining other very salient human rights. I think the other
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: zinger she came up with is that we have a
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: provincial government that doesn't care about children. And yet, they're
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: consistently using children as a rhetorical tactic to shove through
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: a lot of these ideas. And so I don't know,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: just those those zingers right off the bat or something
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I thought about. I don't know if you want to
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: jump in on that before I go off on a
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: comprehensive sex ed rant. I know you're here for that.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Take it away. Let's talk about sex.
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just, I think that the opt-in for comprehensive
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: sex ed that has been advanced, it elucidates so well
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: this idea that this is only some parents and some
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: rights because the literature demonstrates that the majority of parents
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: want some form of sexual health education in classrooms. I've
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: seen some reporting that says up to 85% of parents
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: in Canada are in favor of comprehensive sex ed. Even
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: the camps in comprehensive sex ed, the idea, the abstinence
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: only camps and the comprehensive sex ed camps are the
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: two main camps in comprehensive sex ed. As Lauren Bialstock
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: points out, they actually have a lot of overlap. The
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: overlap is they don't want kids getting pregnant. They don't
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: want kids getting STIs and they don't want kids being
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: victims of assault. Right. And so with all of that
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: in mind, the fact that most parents want it and
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: that the research shows that it works for kids and
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: it reduces sexual violence in our society, that means that
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: it's upholding the rights of human beings to not be assaulted.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: why wouldn't we want this in schools? Right. And so
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I think the fact that the government is pushing through
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: legislation that requires that parents opt in means we're going
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: to have a whole bunch of students in society that
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: have never learned about consent. And that is not good
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: for anybody. It is not good for children in their lives.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I just read a quote yesterday. I wish I could
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: have it. I could have it. It's like the parents
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: aren't going to be there in the courtroom with their
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: kids when they are being convicted of sexual assault. Right.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: So those parents that decided for their kids that they
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: don't get comprehensive sex ed in schools and then they
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: leave schools and have no understanding of comprehensive sex ed
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: or consent and they actually break the law in regards
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: to consent. It's not going to be the parents standing
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: there taking the charge. It's going to be the kids
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: standing there taking the charge. But I think this is
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: a form of privatization when we're allowing a small group
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: of parents to dictate what happens in public schools. That's
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: private values in public schools rather than public schools enacting
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: a research-informed curriculum that upholds public health. that upholds the
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: rights of children to actually get comprehensive sex ed, children
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: have that right. And it upholds human rights because we
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: know that certain groups in society are victims of sexual assault,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: for example, at higher rates than other groups. And when
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: we say we don't think people need comprehensive sex ed
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: in schools, we're actually saying we're okay with the high
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: rates of sexual violence in our society.
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: And so.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: I would call what the Alberta government is doing with
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: opt-ins as an example of a small group of parents
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: enforcing private values in public schools. And I think that's privatization.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: And Heather made clear that the idea for opt-in didn't
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: come from the provincial government. It didn't come from educators.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: It didn't come from researchers. It came straight from parental
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: rights groups. They wrote about this policy in advance and
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: they stated that they wanted this. And there's lots of
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: places in the United States that are going the way
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: of opt-in as well. And the result of that is
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: we have a populace that doesn't understand very important rules
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and regulations around consent. They don't understand healthy relationships. They
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: don't understand ideas about gender and sexuality and living in
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: a diverse society. And none of that is good for
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: our society. I don't know. I just ran to Justin.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: What do you think?
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: I preach, just preach.
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: That was fabulous.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Does a Zencaster have an applause? I think, I think
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I would have, you know, maybe kept going a little more.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Thoughts on zingers from Heather or privatization or Alberta.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Lots, lots of thoughts. So like you struck at the clarity, precision,
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: and depth that Heather engages in these conversations about the
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: parental rights movement in Alberta.
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: It's fabulous.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate how she notes that this movement advances
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: choice in education while at the same time asserting control
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: of what's taught in public schools. And so as for
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: the zinger, Heather's quote, pick a lane. Just pick a lane, guys.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Either you want to be part of the conversation as
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: it concerns public education or you don't. And so you
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: can't simply pull your children from public education while at
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: the same time trying to dictate what goes on in
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: public schools. So once again, this speaks to those strange bedfellows.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Neoliberals and neoconservatives, this convenient alliance within the parental rights
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: movement and the broader push to privatize education. Neolibs want
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: to subject public education to the dictates of the free market,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: whereas typically based on fundamental religious beliefs, social conservatives want
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: to privatize the values embedded and or embraced within public ed.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Heather talks that there's overlap. between these two groups, neolibs
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: and neocons, that the aims of privatization and increased choice,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: they coalesce within the parental rights movement. And I think
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: that's what makes this movement really effective.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I loved when she said, like, pick a lane,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: you know, you don't get to control, make a school
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: for yourself, and then still control what's happening in public schools, right?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: And Ross, I think it's Ross by himself, Wayne Ross
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: by himself, who has, you know, the whole goal of
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: neolibs is to advance the market, and the role of
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: neocons is to control the mind. And we really see that.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: And I love Wendy Brown's writing in general, but Wendy
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Brown's discussion of how in neoliberalism and neoconservatism, one lays
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: the fertile ground for the other, right? But in the
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: case of school boards, for example, when the general person
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: in the populace sees some of the discussions that are
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: emerging in school boards, they might say to themselves, why
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: do we need school boards? They're just talking about ridiculous
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: stuff I don't care about. And then Neil Libs go,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: let's centralize and get rid of local government. What a
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: good idea. And in that example, it's the one laying
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: the fertile ground for the other one. The parental rights
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: discourses in school board elections and school boards themselves become
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the fertile ground for Neil Libs to advance centralization. And
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: I think that, what did you call it? Convenient Alliance?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Strange Bedfellows Convenient Alliance.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: I think all of that is what makes this extra
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: dangerous in this moment because they are working together and
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: it's going to have a grievous impact on public education
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: if people are not more attuned to the ways in
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: which those rhetorical devices are being used. Did you appreciate
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: her little quip about Alberta as well? What happens in
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Vegas quip?
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, what happens Alberta... does not stay in Alberta. I
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: like that. Well, I don't like, but I appreciate that
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Heather identifies how various individuals and groups are either from
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: other provinces or even headquartered in different places. So you
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: talked about fertile ground. Well, Alberta is kind of that
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: fertile ground right now, or even a testing ground, I think,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: for these movements to take hold because we've seen them
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: in the States and we're seeing that mirrored up here.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Alberta is a bit of a test subject in that way,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: and they're taking hold within the government. And again, these
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: aren't limited to Alberta. They're not limited to the prairies.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: This is public good on the prairies, but this is
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: far more reaching than this. These cancerous movements continue to
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: spread everywhere across the country. Heather talks about the Alberta government,
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: how they use the notwithstanding clause. And they use it
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: a few different times. And one of the ways was
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: notwithstanding clause to force an agreement on the Alberta Teachers Association.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Legislated them back to work despite unfair bargaining practices. And
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I remember when that was all happening. This was late 2025.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I kept thinking back to when I was living in Winnipeg.
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: So my commute, my commute would often take me through
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: downtown Winnipeg, Portage and Maine. And anyone who's been there
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: has seen the sculpture of the overturned streetcar. which is
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: based on a really pivotal event during the Winnipeg general
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: strike of 1919. And so when Premier Smith used the
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: notwithstanding clause on Alberta teachers, and let's be clear, that's
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: an unconscionable authoritarian move. There's no way around it. I
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: wondered when she used that, I wondered if that was
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: the moment that we might see a massive show of
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: solidarity and resistance from unions and workers across the country.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: I thought that could be it. And we didn't. Rather
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: than defying the order, the ATA decided that teachers would
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: return to the classroom, that they would try to fight
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: the order through the courts. And unfortunately, that decision has
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: been largely ineffective because the notwithstanding clause acts like a
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: trump card. And so to quote Heather, because we're so
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: burnt out, because we're so tired, we can't muster the
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: solidarity that we need. And that's a really difficult position
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: to be in. What are your thoughts on solidarity, on
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: mustering that and the difficulties of the position we're in now?
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: Well, I think the fatigue is purposeful. Like, I mean,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: we exist in capitalist systems that make people chronically tired
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: because they have to work multiple jobs, etc., raise their
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: children without a strong social safety net. So that idea
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: of keeping people tired so they don't have the opportunity
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: to resist is part of the system we exist in.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: But I think going back to your, you were hopeful
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: in that moment that you would see teachers across Canada
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: actually work alongside or in support of teachers in Alberta,
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: because you better bet that once one province does that,
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: other provinces are going to see that. as a testing
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: case and do the same thing. And of course, we've
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: seen the notwithstanding clause being used in Saskatchewan for passing
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: parental rights in education legislation that undermines human rights, as
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: we have seen with the notwithstanding clause being used as
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: well in Alberta, not just for making teachers go back
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: to work, but for actually forcing through legislation that the
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: government is admitting, hey, we know this goes against human rights.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: But instead of actually not doing that, we're just going
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: to use the notwithstanding clause to allow us to do
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: stuff that undermines the rights of our citizens knowingly. And
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I just think, I don't know, I really loved how
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Heather called out any Canadian that is thinking, oh, that's
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: just Alberta. I think that's really important because it's not
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: just Alberta. And what happens in Alberta is going to
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: echo and ripple in the rest of Canada. And I,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: you know, as tired as we are, I think, I
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: hope people... do find opportunity to see that just because
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: it's teachers this time, it's not going to be teachers always.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: And just because this time it's, you know, gender diverse kids,
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: it's not going to be gender diverse kids. I wish
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: and hope people cared just to care about things being
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: wrong and unethical, but if it needs to be about them,
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: it's going to be about you soon too.
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: So I don't know.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I think that it's awesome that Heather continues to have
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: that fight within her. I think it's so inspiring and,
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: I love that she's pissed off and doesn't hide it.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: I love that she, I know this isn't a debrief
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: about Heather, but I just think we could all learn
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: something from the way Heather has worked with SOS Alberta
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: to try to enact change in public education. And despite
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: all that's happening in that province continues that fight. And
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I find that really inspiring. And that gives me hope.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I know we don't want to be Pollyanna about things
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: and make everything about hope, but I'm just, I feel
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: so privileged that she took the time with us and
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: I just, I'm just trying to think of how to
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: end it in a way that isn't totally fucking depressing.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: Big sigh.
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: Big sigh.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: But until next time, until next time.