Latest / QUESTION EVERYTHING / Why Unpaid Labor Hurts More Than Just Mothers: with author Angela Garbes

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Why Unpaid Labor Hurts More Than Just Mothers: with author Angela Garbes · QUESTION EVERYTHING

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Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
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Speaker 1: so today today, today, today, Oh, I'm so excited about
2:36
Speaker 1: this episode, and I have a whole intro that I wrote,
2:41
Speaker 1: but before I get into it, I have been thinking
2:44
Speaker 1: so much about mothering lately, and more so, what does
2:49
Speaker 1: that word mean to mother, to mother as a verb
2:53
Speaker 1: instead of as a noun, Because we can mother people
2:56
Speaker 1: who aren't our children, and we can receive mothering from friends.
3:01
Speaker 1: I really think of it as a word that means
3:04
Speaker 1: to nurture, and it got me thinking about how I
3:08
Speaker 1: could mother myself better in some ways, and how I
3:12
Speaker 1: could mother my friends because so many of my friends
3:15
Speaker 1: do mother me, and I always think that's one of
3:17
Speaker 1: the most beautiful things about being a woman, is our
3:21
Speaker 1: friendships and our sisterhood. And it's really because we mother
3:26
Speaker 1: each other right, like we bring each other treats, or
3:30
Speaker 1: we go the extra mile to call when we know
3:32
Speaker 1: somebody's having a bad day, or if there's a big meeting,
3:35
Speaker 1: we make sure we put a calendar reminder in to
3:37
Speaker 1: text our friend beforehand, and all of that just feels
3:41
Speaker 1: so nurturing. So I've been thinking about that word so much,
3:46
Speaker 1: and I was thinking about a lunch I went to
3:48
Speaker 1: with an amazing group of really smart, thoughtful women, and
3:54
Speaker 1: there was a panel on mothering. There were a few
3:57
Speaker 1: authors a poet, and one of the authors there was
4:01
Speaker 1: named Angela Garbus, and I was so taken by what
4:04
Speaker 1: she said because I hadn't heard anybody talk about it before.
4:09
Speaker 1: So I reached out to her and I could not believe.
4:13
Speaker 1: I was so excited. She said yes, she flew all
4:15
Speaker 1: the way from Seattle to LA to record the podcast,
4:19
Speaker 1: and it was just the word delightful comes to mind.
4:24
Speaker 1: So so this episode just feels special to me. And
4:30
Speaker 1: so here's my ass today. If the episode moves you
4:33
Speaker 1: the way Angela moves me, please send it to somebody
4:38
Speaker 1: who mothers you or a mother in your life that
4:41
Speaker 1: you think should hear it. You know, they say there's
4:45
Speaker 1: only one person who gets thanked more than the Academy
4:49
Speaker 1: when people win an oscar. Can you guess who it is?
4:53
Speaker 1: If you guessed Mom's, you're correct.
4:56
Speaker 2: Thank you mom, Thank you mom, Thank you mom, Thank
4:58
Speaker 2: you mom, Mama, my mother.
5:01
Speaker 3: I love you.
5:01
Speaker 1: I love your mom. So iry to thank my mommy,
5:03
Speaker 1: especially my mom my mom my mom my mom, mom
5:05
Speaker 1: my mother, my mother. We also saw this at the
5:09
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three Oscars when Michelle Yo took the stage
5:12
Speaker 1: to accept her award for Best Actress, the first time
5:16
Speaker 1: an Asian woman had won the statue in the Academy's
5:19
Speaker 1: ninety five year history.
5:21
Speaker 3: I have to dedicate this to my mom, all the
5:26
Speaker 3: moms in the world, because they are really the superheroes,
5:31
Speaker 3: and without them, none of us will be here tonight.
5:37
Speaker 1: Moms and everyone who mothers, including all people who raise children,
5:42
Speaker 1: are the foundation of our society. They are beacons of strength,
5:47
Speaker 1: sources of comfort. But our guest today says, care workers
5:52
Speaker 1: are faced with a pretty grim reality because we live
5:55
Speaker 1: in a country that just doesn't value them or the
5:57
Speaker 1: work that they do is widely regarded as low wage,
6:01
Speaker 1: unskilled labor. You know, until the rug was pulled out
6:05
Speaker 1: from under society in twenty twenty, nobody even noticed it.
6:10
Speaker 1: But since then the conversation has shifted. As author Angela
6:13
Speaker 1: Garvis puts it in her best selling book Essential Labor,
6:17
Speaker 1: the pandemic revealed that mothering is some of the only
6:20
Speaker 1: truly essential work humans do. Today, we're exploring the economic, political,
6:26
Speaker 1: and ideological systems that have shaped the way our society
6:29
Speaker 1: sees care work, sees mothering, and why those systems are
6:34
Speaker 1: due for a much needed overhaul. Because the people who
6:37
Speaker 1: mother may be superheroes, but even superheroes needs support. The
6:47
Speaker 1: title of your book is essential labor, mothering as social change. Yes,
6:52
Speaker 1: I want to start very simply because we're going to
6:55
Speaker 1: use this term so much throughout our conversation. But what
6:58
Speaker 1: is considered care work and or essential labor?
7:01
Speaker 2: To me, it is just the most basic stuff of life, right,
7:07
Speaker 2: So no one makes it, No single person makes it
7:10
Speaker 2: through the helplessness of infancy and childhood, the sort of
7:16
Speaker 2: explorations and tumult of adolescents and teenage years, and like
7:21
Speaker 2: the sort of wildness of you know, early adulthood without
7:25
Speaker 2: someone taking care of them, right, whether that's parents or
7:30
Speaker 2: a babysitter or a nanny, or preschool teacher or teachers mentors. Right,
7:36
Speaker 2: that's the stuff, Like I really believe that care work,
7:41
Speaker 2: which is things like you know, taking a bath, feeding yourself,
7:46
Speaker 2: very basic stuff, having health, like human rights, basic things
7:49
Speaker 2: like that. That's the only real work that humans have
7:53
Speaker 2: to do on earth. You know, Like we made up money.
7:56
Speaker 2: So if we all decided to stop believing in my
8:00
Speaker 2: you know, like we could figure out a new way
8:02
Speaker 2: of organizing our lives. But no one could do anything
8:06
Speaker 2: without taking care of We got a bathe, Yeah, we
8:09
Speaker 2: got a bathe. We got to feed ourselves. And that's
8:12
Speaker 2: the work of life that never goes away. We all
8:15
Speaker 2: have to figure it out. We all relied on someone
8:18
Speaker 2: to give that to us, and most likely we will
8:20
Speaker 2: provide that to somebody else. It's really the thing that
8:23
Speaker 2: connects us as humans, and that's the thing that we
8:26
Speaker 2: and that we don't value financially, culturally, we hide it
8:30
Speaker 2: in the home. Sometimes we just call it women's work. Right,
8:34
Speaker 2: We don't pay people to do it, or we hire
8:38
Speaker 2: people to take care of our children, to take care
8:41
Speaker 2: of our disabled relatives, to take care of elders, and
8:45
Speaker 2: we pay them very low wages. And those people are
8:47
Speaker 2: predominantly women of color. So what I'm asking us to
8:50
Speaker 2: do is to you know, I'm asking it's a bit
8:53
Speaker 2: of a stretch. I'm asking people to rethink our concept
8:56
Speaker 2: of work and what work we consider valuable.
9:00
Speaker 1: That last part, is it really like what we consider valuable?
9:06
Speaker 1: I kept thinking that we valorize mothers in our country,
9:11
Speaker 1: but it's almost this faux valorization because we cheer them
9:16
Speaker 1: on on Mother's Day or we're moments where we're like
9:19
Speaker 1: I had such a great mom or my mom did
9:21
Speaker 1: every but we're not really doing anything to valuate them.
9:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's why we double down on
9:29
Speaker 2: these celebrations. But you know, my friends and I joke
9:32
Speaker 2: were like, I don't need a bouquet of flowers. I
9:35
Speaker 2: need paid family leave. You know what I mean, I
9:38
Speaker 2: don't need I mean, it's nice to get flowers, but
9:40
Speaker 2: I would take in its place real structural support, you know,
9:43
Speaker 2: Like you know, there are politicians who claim and pole
9:47
Speaker 2: parties that claim to be about family values, right, but
9:50
Speaker 2: then we don't guarantee family leave for fathers and mothers,
9:54
Speaker 2: or people who are adopting children, you know, or fostering children,
9:58
Speaker 2: taking care of who are sick, taking care of relatives
10:01
Speaker 2: who are sick. We expect people to do all of
10:05
Speaker 2: that really for free, without any support. You know, care,
10:10
Speaker 2: the care economy is very real. We rely on that, right.
10:13
Speaker 1: I want to hold on that because the care economy
10:16
Speaker 1: is a huge part of your book that I want
10:18
Speaker 1: to dig into, just so that because I'm so literal,
10:21
Speaker 1: care work would be mothers and fathers technically cleaning people
10:28
Speaker 1: who else would fall under that.
10:29
Speaker 2: Category childcare providers, right, babysitters, early childhood educators, teachers do
10:37
Speaker 2: a lot of care work. Yeah, those would be like
10:39
Speaker 2: the main but also like health care workers nurses, right,
10:43
Speaker 2: people who aren't necessarily they're not the specialist that you
10:46
Speaker 2: who goes and gives you the imaging and it sits
10:48
Speaker 2: with you for ten minutes and tells you what the
10:50
Speaker 2: diagnosis is. I'm talking about nurses who are hands on,
10:53
Speaker 2: who are going to people be the people who are
10:55
Speaker 2: changing your catheter, right, and who are really like at
10:59
Speaker 2: your bedside taking care of you. That's the kind of
11:01
Speaker 2: work that I'm talking about, and I think really like
11:03
Speaker 2: care work to me is people who are on the
11:06
Speaker 2: like one way of thinking about it is like whatever
11:08
Speaker 2: the age, if you're like on the front lines of
11:10
Speaker 2: like human bodily fluids, like you're doing care work.
11:12
Speaker 1: For sure, that's a good indication. So the first part
11:16
Speaker 1: of your book is really about the history of caretaking
11:19
Speaker 1: in America, and then the second is more looking towards
11:22
Speaker 1: the future. Yes, I want to start with the first
11:24
Speaker 1: part because I think to understand where we can go,
11:28
Speaker 1: we have to understand where we've been in a lot
11:30
Speaker 1: of ways here, How did we get to this place
11:33
Speaker 1: where we undervalue care so much in America.
11:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think it's a uniquely I want to
11:39
Speaker 2: put it in a lot of context. This is a
11:40
Speaker 2: very uniquely American way that we live, and it doesn't
11:44
Speaker 2: have to be this way. I actually think it's pretty inhumane,
11:47
Speaker 2: Like we have privatized human rights. Like I think that
11:51
Speaker 2: if you're born like you deserve to have a place
11:53
Speaker 2: to live, you deserve like a basic guarantee in life,
11:56
Speaker 2: like you know, to have healthcare right, like we tie
11:59
Speaker 2: home care to a job right. So these are these
12:02
Speaker 2: are some problems that we have. But other countries like
12:04
Speaker 2: provide paid family leave because they understand that investing in mothering,
12:09
Speaker 2: in parenting and in Caroork is investing in the health
12:11
Speaker 2: of a society overall. And the other distinctly American thing
12:15
Speaker 2: that I want to point out is the reason why
12:17
Speaker 2: we are comfortable like expecting caroc for free from mothers
12:21
Speaker 2: paying very low wages is it's a direct result of
12:24
Speaker 2: American slavery. So the wealth in our nation was built
12:29
Speaker 2: on the backs of enslaved people who were treated as
12:32
Speaker 2: property and worked for no pay. And so the home
12:39
Speaker 2: has always been a workplace for black women in America.
12:44
Speaker 2: And so you know, enslaved people were emancipated, but we're
12:48
Speaker 2: still very much living with this idea that you know,
12:52
Speaker 2: when second wave feminism and Betty for Dan and the
12:54
Speaker 2: feminine mistique was like, women, I get it, like you can't,
12:58
Speaker 2: like you need to find meaning for yourself outside of
13:00
Speaker 2: the home.
13:00
Speaker 1: Which I know is very much white feminists.
13:03
Speaker 2: White feminism absolutely, and so women were like, great, I'm
13:06
Speaker 2: going to go outside of the home and do this work.
13:08
Speaker 2: But it never solved the issue of who was doing
13:11
Speaker 2: the domestic labor. So actually what they did was we
13:14
Speaker 2: hire black women to work in the home, right or
13:16
Speaker 2: hire black women this time for wages, but very low wages.
13:19
Speaker 2: And so I think that we are very very comfortable
13:22
Speaker 2: seeing black women and women of color in general as
13:26
Speaker 2: being less human, being less worthy, and you know, paying
13:30
Speaker 2: them those lower wages. And we talk about domestic labor
13:35
Speaker 2: and care work as being low skilled, low wage labor.
13:39
Speaker 2: And you know, anyone who's had to spend more than
13:42
Speaker 2: four hours but a baby knows like that's not easy work.
13:45
Speaker 2: It's actually very hard. And I believe that this idea
13:48
Speaker 2: of low skilled is really a myth that we perpetuate
13:52
Speaker 2: in order to justify paying people low wages. So interesting, Yeah,
13:56
Speaker 2: I mean the median wage for any worker in any industry, yeah,
14:01
Speaker 2: is around twenty dollars an hour, which is already not
14:05
Speaker 2: my twenty Yeah, but so when you are looking at
14:07
Speaker 2: domestic workers, that drops down to a medium wage or
14:11
Speaker 2: closer to twelve dollars an hour, and nannies make the
14:14
Speaker 2: lowest median wage, which is eleven dollars and sixty cents
14:17
Speaker 2: an hour.
14:18
Speaker 1: It's so backwards too, because it's like you're trusting these
14:21
Speaker 1: people with your children.
14:23
Speaker 2: That's it. We say, like, what do we think is
14:25
Speaker 2: the most valuable, most precious thing in the World's our
14:27
Speaker 2: children and our future. And I really think it's shameful.
14:30
Speaker 2: It is shameful that we cannot pay people a living wage.
14:34
Speaker 2: Domestic workers are three times more likely to live in
14:36
Speaker 2: poverty than any other worker.
14:40
Speaker 1: So you wrote a piece in The Atlantic, and I
14:42
Speaker 1: want to just quote you back to Youth so that
14:45
Speaker 1: people understand the percentages here because I don't want to
14:48
Speaker 1: like double down on facts, but I think it really
14:51
Speaker 1: drives your point home. Yeah, ninety two percent of domestic
14:54
Speaker 1: workers are women. Ninety two fifty seven percent of them
14:58
Speaker 1: are black, Hispanic Asian America in a Pacific islander, and
15:03
Speaker 1: sixty two percent of house cleaners are Latin American workers.
15:09
Speaker 1: And then you talk about the average pace, so twelve
15:13
Speaker 1: dollars for domestic workers. The gap is widest for Nandy's
15:16
Speaker 1: ninety seven percent of whom are women, and they just
15:19
Speaker 1: earn eleven dollars and sixty cents. And it's remained stagnant
15:23
Speaker 1: for decades.
15:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the cost of living is everyone knows,
15:27
Speaker 2: like has been going up and up and up and up,
15:29
Speaker 2: and domestic workers their wages have remained low, like they've
15:33
Speaker 2: risen a slight bit, but nothing to closing that gap.
15:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really shocking.
15:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I'm glad that we have like
15:42
Speaker 2: we have these numbers, and I'm glad that you want
15:44
Speaker 2: to spend a little time on that, because when I
15:46
Speaker 2: was doing the research, I was like, this can't.
15:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, how can it be?
15:49
Speaker 2: Like when you I think it's something that we all
15:51
Speaker 2: are sort of aware of, but when you see the numbers,
15:53
Speaker 2: it's undeniable. And it is undeniable that we don't value
15:58
Speaker 2: these workers. We don't, you know, And that's really I mean,
16:02
Speaker 2: that's a hard thing to say. With you know, like
16:03
Speaker 2: I like, I do a care work as a mother, right,
16:07
Speaker 2: My mother was a nurse, right. But it's just like
16:10
Speaker 2: these are I mean, I read facts like that, and
16:13
Speaker 2: I'm fortunate, you know, I grew up in like a
16:16
Speaker 2: fairly middle class upbringing. But but I look like this,
16:20
Speaker 2: these workers are me. They look like me. I relate
16:24
Speaker 2: to a lot of these women, and that's a really
16:26
Speaker 2: hard thing to I think that there are a lot
16:28
Speaker 2: of people in America who, even if they know that
16:31
Speaker 2: that's not right, they've never really had to confront that discomfort, right,
16:36
Speaker 2: and that reality.
16:37
Speaker 1: And there's also not that much conversation around it.
16:40
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely.
16:42
Speaker 1: Like I think part of the reason your book made
16:44
Speaker 1: such a huge splash was it was one of the
16:47
Speaker 1: first that really talked about it.
16:50
Speaker 2: We think anything related to women or work that women
16:53
Speaker 2: or female people do is like not real work, and
16:57
Speaker 2: we sort of like relegated to the side. Stories and
16:59
Speaker 2: books about that are considered really niche. Right, And so
17:02
Speaker 2: I'm proud and I was stunned. Actually, I'm glad that
17:06
Speaker 2: I could write a book that I mean, to be
17:08
Speaker 2: able to be on the Daily Show, I did something
17:11
Speaker 2: that was like short of mainstream, right, or like that
17:13
Speaker 2: struck a chord with a lot of people, and I
17:16
Speaker 2: knew that it would be relevant and timely because it
17:19
Speaker 2: came out of me being pissed because I'm a writer.
17:21
Speaker 2: I have a fairly successful career, but I do not
17:23
Speaker 2: get health insurance and I do not get a regular
17:25
Speaker 2: paycheck in my job and my husband does. And so
17:28
Speaker 2: in the pandemic when we had no childcare, we were like,
17:32
Speaker 2: we will prioritize your work because we need money.
17:35
Speaker 1: And your health care.
17:36
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And me, I'm like, you know, I'm just
17:40
Speaker 2: kind of here writing things like we have a deadline,
17:44
Speaker 2: like on the horizon, right. And so it was hard.
17:49
Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways it was the easiest thing
17:50
Speaker 2: to do because I like, obviously, this is what we
17:53
Speaker 2: should do, this is what makes sense. And I did
17:55
Speaker 2: really feel like, what's the most important thing I could
17:58
Speaker 2: be doing right now. It's not writing an art, it's
18:00
Speaker 2: not making a podcast. It's taking care of my kids.
18:03
Speaker 2: It's making sure they don't get sick and die, right,
18:06
Speaker 2: And in that sense, too, is like keeping us away
18:08
Speaker 2: from people, keeping our communities safe and so and it
18:12
Speaker 2: came out of like this tension of feeling like in
18:14
Speaker 2: the early pandemic Dreamber. Every day at seven pm in
18:16
Speaker 2: New York City, people will be hanging out windows and
18:19
Speaker 2: like banging pots and pans and like cheering on our
18:21
Speaker 2: essential workers. And I loved that. Healthcare workers right, like firemen,
18:27
Speaker 2: sanitation workers, like they're all essential. But I, yeah, I
18:30
Speaker 2: can't deny it. I was sitting here being like, how
18:32
Speaker 2: about the parents, Well about me? Yeah, what about parents
18:35
Speaker 2: who are working twenty four to seven. A lot of
18:37
Speaker 2: people are working professional jobs. They're trying to take care
18:40
Speaker 2: of their families, and they're like, they're all it's all
18:43
Speaker 2: happening at home. Yeah, And I just was like, this
18:45
Speaker 2: is not okay. And also at that time, you know,
18:49
Speaker 2: childcare centers were shutting down, and without people being able
18:52
Speaker 2: to bring like the nannies into their house at the
18:54
Speaker 2: baby sitters or house cleaners. People were really struggling. And
18:57
Speaker 2: we were seeing suddenly that invisible labor, like the loss
19:02
Speaker 2: of it was being felt by a lot of people.
19:05
Speaker 1: It brought it to the surface and the way that
19:08
Speaker 1: people hadn't experience before. That's a great point, so anthropologist
19:13
Speaker 1: David Graber wrote in twenty eighteen in our society, there
19:16
Speaker 1: seems to be a general rule that the more obviously
19:19
Speaker 1: one's work benefits other people, the less one is likely
19:22
Speaker 1: to be paid for it. I've heard you say the
19:25
Speaker 1: idea that domestic labor is less valuable than professional work
19:27
Speaker 1: is actually a myth. Yeah, so can you explain that.
19:31
Speaker 2: I mean, it goes back to the way I think
19:33
Speaker 2: the neatest the easiest way to summarize it is to say, like,
19:37
Speaker 2: domestic labor is the work that makes all other work possible, right, right,
19:41
Speaker 2: Like if you weren't able to feed yourself, and you
19:44
Speaker 2: weren't able to bathe, like, and you didn't have like
19:47
Speaker 2: a safe place to go to the bathroom, like, you
19:49
Speaker 2: couldn't you couldn't be doing this. We couldn't be doing this, right, Like,
19:53
Speaker 2: That's the bottom line, and it is what underlies everything,
19:59
Speaker 2: and we can actually take it for granted.
20:01
Speaker 1: A lot of moms today are doing I should say,
20:04
Speaker 1: a lot of parents today are doing what villages did
20:09
Speaker 1: to raise kids in the past. And like, I know
20:13
Speaker 1: people throw that around, but it's not a euphemism, like
20:15
Speaker 1: it's a literal. It's really like one or two people
20:19
Speaker 1: are doing what true communities we're doing to raise kids.
20:22
Speaker 1: I even see it like in the last forty years,
20:25
Speaker 1: it's gotten worse. I think there used to be neighborhoods
20:28
Speaker 1: where there was like you know, blocks where there were
20:31
Speaker 1: one or two people that kind of like watched over
20:32
Speaker 1: the kids a little bit. Yeah, that doesn't really exist anymore.
20:36
Speaker 1: But you say that capitalism relies on unpaid labor, and
20:40
Speaker 1: that's kind of the brokenness here.
20:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that that's one thing that
20:45
Speaker 2: we've never really dealt with American capitalism to where society
20:49
Speaker 2: runs relies on domestic labor. Like the whole idea. Okay,
20:52
Speaker 2: so there's certain things we take for granted about American
20:55
Speaker 2: life that are based on this myth that is so
20:58
Speaker 2: far from reality. So my child, my child who's in
21:01
Speaker 2: second grade, gets out of school every day at two
21:03
Speaker 2: twenty five pm, and on Wednesdays she gets out at
21:06
Speaker 2: one ten. I'm not done working yet. The whole idea,
21:12
Speaker 2: like the way school hours function, is based on the
21:16
Speaker 2: idea that there's someone who goes and works nine to
21:19
Speaker 2: five and that's the dad, and there's someone who's home
21:22
Speaker 2: to pick up the kids and take care of the kids.
21:25
Speaker 2: And you know, at this point, the majority of households
21:28
Speaker 2: have like with two parents, have two working parents, people
21:31
Speaker 2: who work outside of the home. Every parent is a
21:34
Speaker 2: working there, whether you were outside of the home or not.
21:36
Speaker 2: But yeah, like so there are these ways that we
21:38
Speaker 2: society has built up that just does not acknowledge that,
21:41
Speaker 2: you know, and it's time for us to really you know,
21:44
Speaker 2: I think since twenty twenty we've been having a series
21:47
Speaker 2: of reckonings, that is what I've heard, But we haven't
21:50
Speaker 2: really reckoned with that. We haven't figured out a way
21:53
Speaker 2: to compensate people for that labor. And I believe that
21:56
Speaker 2: we should be. You know, Oxfam did a study was
21:59
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen. Yeah, they said that if women in
22:02
Speaker 2: America were compensated minimum wage for all of the domestic
22:07
Speaker 2: labor that they do currently unpaid, it would be like
22:09
Speaker 2: I want to say, it's like three point one trillion dollars.
22:12
Speaker 1: That is so wild. There's other countries that are doing
22:18
Speaker 1: this way better than we are. What are some of
22:21
Speaker 1: the models that you see that work like something that
22:25
Speaker 1: we really could adopt.
22:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean Canada right now. I think it
22:29
Speaker 2: was working in different provinces, but now it's universal where
22:32
Speaker 2: you can. I think it's something like eight or ten
22:34
Speaker 2: dollars a day childcare subsidized by the government so that
22:38
Speaker 2: you can just send your kid to school, Like I
22:40
Speaker 2: mean I pay thirteen hundred dollars a month for my
22:44
Speaker 2: daughter to go to preschool. And a lot of times
22:47
Speaker 2: childcare and early childhood education can cost more than like college.
22:52
Speaker 2: People pay so much money to have their children in childcare.
22:55
Speaker 2: And we should have affordable childcare. And that's something that
22:58
Speaker 2: is like in Canada and German and a lot of
23:00
Speaker 2: countries in Europe have that. I mean, the US is
23:03
Speaker 2: I believe, the only developed, industrialized country that doesn't have
23:08
Speaker 2: federally guaranteed family leave.
23:11
Speaker 1: It all seems so inefficient to me, for like, yes,
23:14
Speaker 1: for a capitalistic society that runs on efficiency and making money,
23:20
Speaker 1: it's so inefficient.
23:21
Speaker 2: Well, care work is inefficient, right, So like I want
23:24
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that care work is slow, Like what do
23:26
Speaker 2: you mean, Like, I mean, caring for a child is, like,
23:30
Speaker 2: I mean, anyone with a child knows, like sometimes.
23:33
Speaker 1: I don't have one, so yeah, but imagine getting.
23:36
Speaker 2: Someone like out the door sometimes involves someone getting undressed
23:41
Speaker 2: four times, right like, and so it's it's messy, right, Like,
23:44
Speaker 2: it's hard to and that's why I think they want
23:46
Speaker 2: to just keep that hidden so you can just keep going,
23:47
Speaker 2: keep going and going, keep all the stuff that involves
23:50
Speaker 2: like cleaning up poop or somebody threw up or somebody
23:52
Speaker 2: out of bloody nose, Like, yeah, that's life. Like life
23:55
Speaker 2: is like that. And I think are the speed at
23:57
Speaker 2: which capitalism moves the speed at which America moves is
24:01
Speaker 2: it's squashing, Like.
24:03
Speaker 1: We want to skip over that part.
24:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's that kind of stuff that I think
24:07
Speaker 2: is really that's hard. And so I mean, I realize
24:09
Speaker 2: that I'm in the minority.
24:10
Speaker 4: But I'm like, if they're all just like slow down
24:14
Speaker 4: and chill right, like forty hours a week, Like people
24:17
Speaker 4: fought to have a forty hour a week work week
24:20
Speaker 4: and they said, like each day twenty four hours.
24:23
Speaker 2: It was it was union. See did this? It was
24:25
Speaker 2: eight hours for work, eight hours for sleep, and eight
24:28
Speaker 2: hours for what you will you know, like just the
24:31
Speaker 2: idea of leisure and like all that kind of stuff.
24:34
Speaker 2: They'd love to ask you if when you think about
24:36
Speaker 2: what the most valuable thing in your life is, like,
24:39
Speaker 2: what do you think.
24:40
Speaker 1: Of the relationships that matter to me? Okay, that's everyone's answer.
24:44
Speaker 2: Right, And you can't quantify that. Yeah, like you can't
24:47
Speaker 2: assign a dollar amount to it. And I think that's
24:49
Speaker 2: where you know, David Graber, who you quoted, also had
24:53
Speaker 2: a quote about how like these systems like care exploitation
24:58
Speaker 2: can be undone by the thing they run on, which
25:00
Speaker 2: is love. Right, Like love is inefficient caring for someone
25:04
Speaker 2: like you have to get to know them. You slow
25:06
Speaker 2: it down, right, And that's like, that's exactly what care
25:09
Speaker 2: work is. And I wish that we could prioritize that.
25:11
Speaker 2: I'm not saying don't go out and work and don't
25:13
Speaker 2: have a job, but also like why are we valuing
25:17
Speaker 2: production over like maintenance nurturing, right, Like.
25:23
Speaker 1: You know, you in your book you talk about your
25:26
Speaker 1: upbringing and being Filipino, and I'm I find it fascinating
25:31
Speaker 1: that you were the one to bring this message into
25:34
Speaker 1: the world because it seems like Filipino culture really values
25:38
Speaker 1: care in a different way. Oh yeah, I mean, well
25:42
Speaker 1: different perspective.
25:44
Speaker 2: I mean I think it was I just love this question,
25:46
Speaker 2: Thank you. I love talking about being Toldino. Filipinos are
25:51
Speaker 2: were for many many things, but they were very joyful,
25:54
Speaker 2: not all the time, but like the areas like love
25:56
Speaker 2: to perform, love to like party and get together and
25:59
Speaker 2: be with fam and take care of people, feed people.
26:02
Speaker 2: That's a huge part of the culture. But I mean
26:05
Speaker 2: the idea of Filipinas as Filipino women specifically as caretakers
26:09
Speaker 2: that I think that would be familiar to a lot
26:11
Speaker 2: of people here in America because if you've ever gone
26:14
Speaker 2: to the hospital, most likely you've encountered a Philipina nurse.
26:17
Speaker 2: And so that is it's not just because, oh, Philipinos
26:20
Speaker 2: are great caretakers. It's because and this is the story
26:24
Speaker 2: of my own family. Like, so when I was trying
26:26
Speaker 2: to figure out how to write the history of care
26:27
Speaker 2: work in America, I was like, I don't know how
26:30
Speaker 2: to do this, Like I rely on a lot of
26:32
Speaker 2: personal narrative, and I was like, my ancestors were not enslaved, Like,
26:35
Speaker 2: I'm not sure the best way into this. And there
26:38
Speaker 2: was a statistic that came out during COVID which was
26:41
Speaker 2: that so Philippina nurses are four percent of the nursing
26:46
Speaker 2: workforce in America, but they were like thirty four percent
26:51
Speaker 2: of COVID related nursing deaths.
26:53
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it's a huge discretion.
26:55
Speaker 2: Yes, And that like stopped me in my tracks and
26:58
Speaker 2: I was like, what is how does that? How does
27:00
Speaker 2: that happen? Right? And Philippine and nurses are over represented
27:05
Speaker 2: in ICUs and in critical care positions, which is where
27:08
Speaker 2: you're going to find COVID patients, right, And that's because
27:12
Speaker 2: when they came to America, Philippine and nurses were more
27:15
Speaker 2: willing to take these jobs that were like physically intimate
27:19
Speaker 2: with patients and that white nurses didn't want because there
27:22
Speaker 2: it's like harder physical labor. And this is like something
27:25
Speaker 2: that we all kind of know too. A lot of
27:27
Speaker 2: immigrants in America take jobs that Americans who were born
27:31
Speaker 2: here don't want, that white Americans don't want. But so
27:34
Speaker 2: you know, my mom became a nurse. My father, who's
27:37
Speaker 2: the first person in his family to go to college,
27:39
Speaker 2: became a doctor because the Philippines was an American colony.
27:42
Speaker 2: We don't talk about this very much, but it was
27:44
Speaker 2: an American colony for the first half of the twentieth century,
27:48
Speaker 2: and they built infrastructure like public schools where my parents
27:52
Speaker 2: were educated in English, and then they built nursing in
27:55
Speaker 2: medical schools, and they said this is a pathway to
27:57
Speaker 2: make more money, economic opportunity unity, which is true, but
28:02
Speaker 2: amongst themselves. Americans talked about it as a way to
28:05
Speaker 2: like sanitize a population that was like inherently dirty and
28:09
Speaker 2: backwards and disease and so you know, like I'm the
28:14
Speaker 2: beneficiary of this system. But it started because of a
28:17
Speaker 2: belief in the lesser nature and the lower value of Filipinos.
28:23
Speaker 2: And so my parents came because there was a healthcare
28:26
Speaker 2: worker shortage in the United States after World War Two,
28:30
Speaker 2: and so in nineteen sixty five, the US government passed
28:33
Speaker 2: a law that said for highly skilled immigrants, they lifted
28:36
Speaker 2: the quotas and welcomed them to America. And that's when
28:39
Speaker 2: my parents came over. And that's when a lot of
28:41
Speaker 2: Filipino immigrants came over, and they were highly skilled workers
28:45
Speaker 2: like nurses and doctors, and that's kind of how Filipinos
28:48
Speaker 2: became caretakers.
28:50
Speaker 1: You know, the piece in The Atlantic that you wrote
28:53
Speaker 1: talks about the care crisis. That's a term that you
28:56
Speaker 1: use a lot that I hadn't heard. Actually, Yeah, and
28:58
Speaker 1: so you say, women who can ease work outside the
29:00
Speaker 1: home are still not free or unburdened from other people.
29:03
Speaker 1: We are dependent on our nannies, cleaners, personal instacart shoppers,
29:07
Speaker 1: door dash delivery drivers, parents, co parents, and in laws.
29:11
Speaker 1: The domestic load is as heavy as ever, but those
29:13
Speaker 1: who have means often spread it out among multiple people.
29:16
Speaker 1: This is not real progress, that part, because it can
29:21
Speaker 1: feel like it's progress.
29:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I think sharing the load is great. Yeah,
29:27
Speaker 2: but I don't think it should be sharing the load
29:29
Speaker 2: with people who are remain anonymous to you and who
29:31
Speaker 2: get paid like very low wages and have absolutely no
29:34
Speaker 2: rights as workers.
29:35
Speaker 1: And it's not progress if it's only available to a
29:38
Speaker 1: small sect of people.
29:39
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I mean, I think it's a it's a
29:41
Speaker 2: step towards acknowledging. I mean, life and America is really hard,
29:45
Speaker 2: Like we need each other, like I can't do like
29:49
Speaker 2: you know, like the way the school week runs, Like
29:51
Speaker 2: I pick up my friend's kids on Tuesdays. She picks
29:54
Speaker 2: up my kids on Thursdays. On Mondays, someone my friend
29:59
Speaker 2: aren't I comes to our house on Wednesdays, like we
30:01
Speaker 2: do this sort of like patchwork village like you were
30:03
Speaker 2: talking about right, Like I, but.
30:06
Speaker 1: That's because you're you. Like my friends don't have that
30:10
Speaker 1: experience in La M. They're very isolated. That's their biggest complaint.
30:15
Speaker 2: Uh huh. I mean, that's the thing is like, that's
30:17
Speaker 2: America has sort of set it up that way. So
30:19
Speaker 2: the people also feel like I can't have kids because
30:21
Speaker 2: it's too expensive, right, I can't. It all seems like
30:23
Speaker 2: a big burden. Right. It's the thing. Relationships are exactly
30:29
Speaker 2: what makes life we're living. And so you know, I mean,
30:32
Speaker 2: like I'm realistic, Like I don't I would like to
30:36
Speaker 2: burn the system down. I'm just gonna lie right and
30:38
Speaker 2: like start over. I don't know that we're gonna be
30:40
Speaker 2: able to do that, right, And I want to also
30:42
Speaker 2: acknowledge that, like we we are making progress. I want
30:46
Speaker 2: to like I'm it's not you know, I'm not just
30:49
Speaker 2: saying this like I am hopeful. You know, we elected
30:52
Speaker 2: the current administration, like they ran on paid leave. They
30:55
Speaker 2: have not delivered, but they ran on it. You know,
30:57
Speaker 2: we were talking about as infrastructure. Those are things that
31:01
Speaker 2: we heard, right, and we're closer than ever to having
31:05
Speaker 2: those things. And you know, I want to say that, Yeah,
31:08
Speaker 2: eight out of ten voters in America support paid family leave.
31:12
Speaker 2: They support investments in community centers and community based care
31:16
Speaker 2: and home based care, that kind of stuff. And when
31:19
Speaker 2: you're talking about that number of people like that transcends
31:22
Speaker 2: political party. Like I really think in our country we
31:24
Speaker 2: are a caring majority, but we're all made to feel
31:27
Speaker 2: like care is like our individual duties. But really it's
31:31
Speaker 2: the kind of thing that should be it's universal. It's
31:34
Speaker 2: a very wonderful, unifned force. Like if I were to
31:36
Speaker 2: ask you, like who raised you, like who took care
31:38
Speaker 2: of you that like encouraged you to be.
31:40
Speaker 1: You, I would name a number of people. It wouldn't
31:43
Speaker 1: just be my mom and dad. Yeah, it's grandparents, it's
31:46
Speaker 1: some teachers, it's some of my parents' friends.
31:48
Speaker 2: You're right, Yeah, And I think that that's it's a
31:50
Speaker 2: really beautiful thing you ask someone. We tend to think
31:53
Speaker 2: of care stuff as like it's private, But if you
31:56
Speaker 2: ask someone about for a care story, like they'll share
32:00
Speaker 2: something really personal and beautiful, and then you'll get a
32:03
Speaker 2: chance to do that and you'll find that it's actually
32:05
Speaker 2: a very it's a wonderful way to connect with people.
32:08
Speaker 1: So this is mothering is social change. And one of
32:11
Speaker 1: the most interesting and kind of surprising things that you
32:15
Speaker 1: noted in here was that mothering's a social responsibility because
32:18
Speaker 1: it impacts society on a structural level. What I'm about
32:22
Speaker 1: to say is going to sound like duh, but I
32:25
Speaker 1: never thought about it. Mental health, poverty, crime rates, they
32:30
Speaker 1: can all be connected to mothering.
32:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people who are struggling later in life. No,
32:37
Speaker 2: it's probably because they didn't experience sufficient care when they
32:41
Speaker 2: were younger, because maybe they spent a lot of time
32:43
Speaker 2: alone because their parents were working, right or their parents
32:47
Speaker 2: were caught in you know, cycles of generational trauma that
32:51
Speaker 2: left them with like unable to care for them in
32:54
Speaker 2: ways that they would want to, right like. And so
32:57
Speaker 2: I just think about that, like it is early. I
33:00
Speaker 2: kind of think as mothering as like the earliest public
33:03
Speaker 2: health intervention that we could have, and it is really
33:07
Speaker 2: you are teaching young people about the world, right like.
33:12
Speaker 2: And I think about this a lot, like I have
33:14
Speaker 2: two daughters, and I think about how long it, like
33:20
Speaker 2: how long it took me as a woman of color
33:22
Speaker 2: in America to really be like I'm enough as I
33:25
Speaker 2: am and my story is valuable, Like I'm still working
33:29
Speaker 2: on that, do.
33:29
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
33:30
Speaker 2: And like, I don't think that anyone. I think a
33:33
Speaker 2: lot of people like will work on that, and that's
33:34
Speaker 2: like the work of life. But I just feel like
33:37
Speaker 2: I can give that to my daughters so much earlier,
33:41
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like they can enter the
33:43
Speaker 2: world knowing that they are deserving right, that they don't
33:47
Speaker 2: have to like be quiet, they don't have to make
33:50
Speaker 2: themselves small. And I think about that, like you have
33:53
Speaker 2: an opportunity to like talk to the people who are
33:56
Speaker 2: going to be the next generation of neighbors, community members, writers, politicians,
34:04
Speaker 2: you know, like this is literally the next generation, and
34:07
Speaker 2: like they can make choices. Yeah, like that that make
34:12
Speaker 2: it so that people don't have to choose between like
34:14
Speaker 2: paying their bills right, or like getting their medicine right,
34:18
Speaker 2: or like you know, their rent check and like like
34:21
Speaker 2: you know, football supplies or uniforms or whatever people need,
34:24
Speaker 2: you know, Like it's it's small, right, And I think
34:27
Speaker 2: this is one thing too I think about like people
34:28
Speaker 2: who do care work are we are often overwhelmed and
34:31
Speaker 2: kind of the last thing we need is like you
34:34
Speaker 2: like need another thing to do. We need to get involved,
34:36
Speaker 2: like in the fight for social change. Right, you need
34:39
Speaker 2: to donate, You need to like your time, Like it's
34:41
Speaker 2: wonderful if you were able to do those things. But
34:43
Speaker 2: we need everyone at like every level. We need politicians
34:47
Speaker 2: and we need I want to remind people, you know,
34:50
Speaker 2: who are taking care of children every single day, like
34:54
Speaker 2: you're an essential worker and you are making a difference,
34:58
Speaker 2: like difference in child's life is like it won't changing,
35:02
Speaker 2: you know, And I think like like what we were saying,
35:05
Speaker 2: like who made you feel special? Like that is that
35:08
Speaker 2: stuff that they carry with them for life. And you know,
35:10
Speaker 2: I'm not just blowing smoke up people's ass, like it
35:13
Speaker 2: really matters, you know, like and there's other ways of maybe, but.
35:16
Speaker 1: No one's saying that isn't that interesting? It seems like
35:18
Speaker 1: such an obvious thing to say, and nobody's really Like
35:21
Speaker 1: I just saw a video online of three men that
35:24
Speaker 1: were in prison and they had learned in this course
35:27
Speaker 1: to do like tapping for anxiety and affirmations yea, and
35:30
Speaker 1: they were like I am enough, I am whole, And
35:34
Speaker 1: it felt like revolutionary kind of and it's not. It
35:37
Speaker 1: shouldn't be.
35:38
Speaker 2: No, it shouldn't be, but it is it is, And
35:41
Speaker 2: that's yeah, I mean, that's another reason why I'm hopeful,
35:44
Speaker 2: Like there were generations of people who didn't have that,
35:47
Speaker 2: and we are in a position where we can raise
35:49
Speaker 2: and you don't have to be a parent, right, I.
35:52
Speaker 1: Want to be as hopeful as you though, because.
35:54
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean I work at being hopeful just so you.
35:56
Speaker 1: Know, because I I'm all hopeful. In twenty twenty one
36:03
Speaker 1: with the Build Back Better.
36:04
Speaker 2: Plan, yeah yeah.
36:05
Speaker 1: And then and then it was the first thing what
36:07
Speaker 1: was it called was it childcare or was it called
36:10
Speaker 1: plate paid family leave?
36:11
Speaker 2: I mean I think it was when the child well,
36:14
Speaker 2: there was the child Tax Credit where for a while
36:16
Speaker 2: people were getting money, right and for like six months
36:19
Speaker 2: parents were getting like stipends and money from the government,
36:23
Speaker 2: and it actually did lift formalion children out of poverty,
36:26
Speaker 2: you know, like people were able to take care of
36:28
Speaker 2: their basic needs. And then Congress just let it expire.
36:32
Speaker 1: But the thing is is, like, regardless of say, we
36:37
Speaker 1: all agreed that the bill had to get cut, it
36:39
Speaker 1: was too much money, say we say.
36:41
Speaker 2: That's I mean, I have a hard time even saying that.
36:43
Speaker 1: But I agree. But that's for the argument's sake. Paid
36:48
Speaker 1: family leave was the first thing to get cut. It
36:50
Speaker 1: was like damn, like.
36:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we really started at twelve and they're like, well,
36:53
Speaker 2: how about six, how about four? How about two?
36:55
Speaker 1: You know, there were tons of things to cut. Paid
36:58
Speaker 1: family leave was the first, and that's why I've do
37:01
Speaker 1: you think in your lifetime we will see some form
37:04
Speaker 1: of paid family leave in our country?
37:07
Speaker 2: My whole I don't know, Yes I do. I do
37:11
Speaker 2: because we almost had it right, and I don't like
37:14
Speaker 2: it's it's I'm not when someone who can be like
37:17
Speaker 2: relentlessly optimistic, right, I felt the same thing that you did.
37:21
Speaker 2: I was pissed again. Yeah, that's how we got Marshall
37:28
Speaker 2: planned for mothers. And the thing is people want to
37:31
Speaker 2: talk about this. People believe in this, the majority of
37:34
Speaker 2: people in America, right, Like our government is not representing us, right,
37:38
Speaker 2: But I believe in people and I see people taking
37:41
Speaker 2: care of people all the time, you know, Like that's
37:44
Speaker 2: how I get by through community. It's how we survived
37:46
Speaker 2: the pandemic. We did not survive the pandemic because the
37:49
Speaker 2: government sounds like four tests, you know what I mean.
37:51
Speaker 2: We survived the pandemic because we took care of each other.
37:53
Speaker 2: People formed pods, like people like started zoom groups. They
37:57
Speaker 2: found ways to connect, right, And that's the most human energe,
38:01
Speaker 2: and that's what we are built to do. We're hard
38:04
Speaker 2: wired humans are social people. We want to take care
38:07
Speaker 2: of people. We want to be taken care of. Relationships
38:10
Speaker 2: are the most important thing, and so that gives me
38:13
Speaker 2: some hope. And the other thing is like it's okay
38:16
Speaker 2: to be discouraged and like take a few weeks off
38:18
Speaker 2: off for me, it's not an option. It's not an
38:20
Speaker 2: option to give up hope. You know. That's a really
38:23
Speaker 2: and I get it. I get it, Like we're human beings.
38:26
Speaker 2: Like it's hard, but like we can talk about that,
38:29
Speaker 2: you know, and like I'm happy to talk about it
38:31
Speaker 2: in a way that maybe make someone else realize like okay,
38:34
Speaker 2: like I'm all alone, but I want to keep fighting,
38:37
Speaker 2: Like I can't think of a better fight to be
38:40
Speaker 2: in than to like insist on like that we deserve
38:43
Speaker 2: care and that our caregivers deserve care. Like I'm just
38:49
Speaker 2: out here. I'm not gonna stop.
38:51
Speaker 1: So in your book, and you mentioned your two daughters,
38:54
Speaker 1: but you say that your kids will have fewer financial
38:56
Speaker 1: resources than you did. Yeah, but you already know that
38:59
Speaker 1: you have given them more of a sense of self
39:02
Speaker 1: and confidence and community than my parents. That really hit me.
39:08
Speaker 1: It made me kind of emotional. I think a lot
39:11
Speaker 1: of people feel that way because the state of our economy.
39:16
Speaker 1: That's just how it kind of happened. I even have
39:18
Speaker 1: friends who are I think nervous to have kids because
39:21
Speaker 1: they're like, I don't want to bring kids into this
39:24
Speaker 1: type of world. Yeah, how did you arrive at that perspective?
39:28
Speaker 2: My parents worked really hard, you know, like they came
39:30
Speaker 2: to America with very little, and I like worked themselves
39:35
Speaker 2: into the middle class. And I do feel like I
39:38
Speaker 2: have I'm fortunate enough to be able to be comfortable
39:41
Speaker 2: enough to be like I can step down, Like I
39:45
Speaker 2: am not going to give my kids the same level
39:47
Speaker 2: of comfort that my parents gave me, you know. But
39:51
Speaker 2: like my husband, who's white, grew up poor on like
39:54
Speaker 2: public assistance, you know, and like it is there's just
40:00
Speaker 2: so much more to life than you know, Like I
40:03
Speaker 2: of course I want to give my kids everything they want,
40:05
Speaker 2: but in the end, like they're loved, you know, and
40:09
Speaker 2: like that is you need more than just love, Like
40:13
Speaker 2: love is not enough, but that is they have a
40:16
Speaker 2: good life. I know they do. You know, they have
40:19
Speaker 2: what they need and they have people and they know
40:22
Speaker 2: they know more than I ever did. Like and you know,
40:24
Speaker 2: I want to say my parents they were like incredible.
40:28
Speaker 2: They came to a new country, they didn't know anyone,
40:30
Speaker 2: Like they worked asses off, you know, like they were
40:34
Speaker 2: focused on survival, so they weren't really as interested in
40:37
Speaker 2: having a conversation with me about my emotions, right, like,
40:40
Speaker 2: you know, but like I can give that to my daughters,
40:42
Speaker 2: and like, I think they're better prepared to like enter
40:44
Speaker 2: the world as like empathetic, like fully human beings who
40:48
Speaker 2: can like you know, follow their dreams and like be
40:52
Speaker 2: supportive friends and community members. You know. I've had talks
40:55
Speaker 2: my parents have read the book, yeah, and I think
40:57
Speaker 2: that I'm sure that that was sort of hard for
41:00
Speaker 2: them to read and process like they I think initially
41:04
Speaker 2: my mom felt like a lot of what I was
41:05
Speaker 2: writing was like a rejection of them, And you know,
41:09
Speaker 2: I'm sort of horrified by that, and I've talked to
41:11
Speaker 2: her about it, Like that's not how I see it.
41:13
Speaker 2: Like I'm so grateful to them, but I feel like
41:16
Speaker 2: the way that I can honor everything they did for
41:18
Speaker 2: me is to really fully be who I am. And
41:21
Speaker 2: I want more. I want more for them. I wanted
41:24
Speaker 2: more for like, yeah, my my parents in their like
41:27
Speaker 2: former years, right, And I want more for myself, and
41:30
Speaker 2: I want more for my people and my kids.
41:33
Speaker 1: It's beautiful and hard to say sometimes, so thank you.
41:37
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of first generation
41:41
Speaker 2: kids feel that, you know, and a lot of what
41:44
Speaker 2: I don't know that I write for them. I write,
41:46
Speaker 2: I write very selfishly, like for myself.
41:48
Speaker 1: But I think that's why people connect with it though,
41:50
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes these concepts are hard to either
41:54
Speaker 1: understand or buy into because they don't feel as personal,
41:58
Speaker 1: Like you gave people a story to hang on to.
42:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's It's one thing that I've learned.
42:03
Speaker 2: It's kind of a magical thing about writing. You know,
42:06
Speaker 2: I grew up really I know that my stories are valuable,
42:08
Speaker 2: but I have this sort of like internalized, definitely internalized
42:12
Speaker 2: racism that is, like, no one's just going to care
42:15
Speaker 2: about your story, right, I feel like I always have
42:17
Speaker 2: to tie it to like statistics and to a larger
42:20
Speaker 2: social message, right to be useful.
42:22
Speaker 1: Wait, can I ask a question about that? So you
42:24
Speaker 1: say that feeling is tied to racism, Yeah, I would
42:28
Speaker 1: expect you to say tied to the patriarchy. So tell
42:31
Speaker 1: me what you want.
42:32
Speaker 2: I mean, I think those things go hand in hand
42:34
Speaker 2: in this country, you know. I feel like, I mean
42:38
Speaker 2: the way that my parents raised me is like to
42:40
Speaker 2: be valuable, to be like contribute to society, you have
42:44
Speaker 2: to be legible to white people, right, you have to.
42:47
Speaker 2: My parents like spoke English as a second language. My
42:50
Speaker 2: dad raised us only speaking English not to gaulag because
42:54
Speaker 2: and I like feel sad about that, and I feel
42:56
Speaker 2: shame about never having learned to gag. But it's because
42:59
Speaker 2: he faced discrimination with his accent and he didn't want
43:01
Speaker 2: me to ever have that. So there's this idea of
43:04
Speaker 2: like to be like being white and sounding white and
43:08
Speaker 2: being eloquent and all of that stuff is really tied
43:11
Speaker 2: into being academically successful, is like tied up mostly like yeah,
43:16
Speaker 2: so it's like, I mean, it's like a double whammy though,
43:17
Speaker 2: because I'm a woman of color and I think patriarchy
43:19
Speaker 2: for sure is like oh women like.
43:23
Speaker 1: No, but thank you for explaining that.
43:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm thank you for asking. Yeah. Yeah.
43:28
Speaker 1: So I'm so grateful that our culture is talking about motherhood,
43:32
Speaker 1: especially in the way that you and Racheon, Sue Johnny
43:35
Speaker 1: and Eve Rodskill, these amazing women are talking about it.
43:38
Speaker 1: It's very practical as well. Are we not talking about
43:42
Speaker 1: fatherhood enough?
43:43
Speaker 2: I mean probably yes, Yeah, I think that's true, We're
43:46
Speaker 2: not talking about it enough.
43:47
Speaker 1: Like I feel like we're talking about motherhood and not
43:52
Speaker 1: parenthood as much.
43:54
Speaker 2: Well, yes, and I will admit, like I when I
43:57
Speaker 2: talk about mothering, it's really important to me. So like
44:00
Speaker 2: I talk about mothering as a verb, and that's something
44:04
Speaker 2: that I've done more of. I don't talk as much
44:05
Speaker 2: about motherhood, which is a noun and feels sort of
44:08
Speaker 2: static to me. But mothering, which is like care work
44:11
Speaker 2: is it's all repetitive action, like what a lot of
44:14
Speaker 2: mothering is. And you know, so I'm not the first
44:16
Speaker 2: person to say this, Like there's Alexis Polling Gums who
44:20
Speaker 2: edited an anthology called Revolutionary Mothering talks about how like
44:24
Speaker 2: mothering is not gender specific, it's not parents specific. Anyone
44:28
Speaker 2: who's involved in the act of like nurturing life, like
44:32
Speaker 2: any It's a way of calling a lot of people
44:34
Speaker 2: in like anyone can be involved in mothering.
44:37
Speaker 1: Right, Like a friend can mother you.
44:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, like an auntie, like you know, like a like
44:42
Speaker 2: a stranger, like a very kind stranger, ye, right, help
44:45
Speaker 2: you find your Wistnay, there's things like that, and so
44:49
Speaker 2: so I admit, though, like I'm a woman, like I
44:51
Speaker 2: am coming more strongly from that point of view. I
44:54
Speaker 2: am here for conversations about fatherhood and the people that
44:58
Speaker 2: need to have that are fathers. You know. Like I
45:01
Speaker 2: did an interview a while ago with a really thoughtful
45:03
Speaker 2: man interesting who was like I sometimes get jealous, right,
45:07
Speaker 2: Like he's like, I'm committed to the work. I think
45:09
Speaker 2: a lot about how I can be an equal partner,
45:12
Speaker 2: you know, like I raise my children. I don't want
45:14
Speaker 2: it to fall to my wife. But like, you know,
45:16
Speaker 2: you guys have like these online groups, you have like
45:18
Speaker 2: more ways to connect, like and I find myself feeling
45:21
Speaker 2: like kind of sad about that. And I was like,
45:24
Speaker 2: do you know how? I mean, I hear you, but
45:26
Speaker 2: do you know how those mother mother online groups started?
45:29
Speaker 1: Like moms made those We started a group text.
45:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I'm like, I'm like, I support you, man,
45:35
Speaker 2: go out there like yeah, do it right?
45:37
Speaker 1: But it's not but it's not a cultural conversation really yeah, but.
45:42
Speaker 2: Fathers can start that cultural yah, as mothers have started
45:45
Speaker 2: this one. You do you think that like the patriarchy
45:48
Speaker 2: was like, let's start a mothering conversation. No people have
45:51
Speaker 2: insisting on that, And that's kind of the next level
45:54
Speaker 2: for tier, like I want to support that, you know,
45:56
Speaker 2: but that's not my I don't need another thing to do,
45:59
Speaker 2: you know.
46:00
Speaker 1: I love when I catch myself being like part of
46:04
Speaker 1: the problem because I'm like such a great learning moment
46:07
Speaker 1: and in my head, I'm thinking, why are we not
46:09
Speaker 1: talking about fatherhood? Is if women should be the ones?
46:13
Speaker 2: And you're right, yeah, Like you can have a guest
46:15
Speaker 2: on here, so I'm not going to challenging, but like,
46:16
Speaker 2: you can have a guest on here who's like, I mean,
46:19
Speaker 2: my husband is a man who is like I really
46:21
Speaker 2: want He's a white man who was like, I want
46:24
Speaker 2: to do more, and I, in many ways have been
46:27
Speaker 2: late to acknowledge the ways in which like I've benefited
46:30
Speaker 2: from the system every day of my life, you know
46:32
Speaker 2: what I mean. And like, so that's an ongoing conversation
46:34
Speaker 2: that we have, but like, yeah, let's talk. Let's hear
46:36
Speaker 2: from dads, like I want to hear from dadsy, I
46:39
Speaker 2: definitely hear that.
46:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's this theory floating around that I've heard that
46:44
Speaker 1: one of the reasons people don't respect the earth is
46:48
Speaker 1: because we call it mother nature. What do you think
46:53
Speaker 1: about that?
46:55
Speaker 2: Do I think about that?
46:57
Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's not the problem. Yeah, it's
47:01
Speaker 1: not the reason.
47:03
Speaker 2: You know. I think I'll be I'll be honest, Like
47:05
Speaker 2: I'm not wild about like the gendering of things in general,
47:10
Speaker 2: or when people are like, well that look is really feminine,
47:13
Speaker 2: and I'm like that, like what does that mean? But
47:15
Speaker 2: I will say this, like it's similar, like we it's
47:19
Speaker 2: an exploitative relationship that we have with the Earth, like
47:23
Speaker 2: we couldn't we couldn't possibly come up with energy aal turners.
47:25
Speaker 2: We just keep taking as much oil as we can
47:28
Speaker 2: extract and extract and take and take and take, right,
47:31
Speaker 2: And I think it's similar like a mother's love is endless,
47:35
Speaker 2: like what you were saying, we like valorize mothers, and
47:38
Speaker 2: the whole idea is like my mother sacrificed everything for me,
47:41
Speaker 2: that's all. I mean. That's not great, right, Like the
47:44
Speaker 2: Earth shouldn't sacrifice so that we can drive cars, you
47:48
Speaker 2: know what I mean, or like have a gas stove. Right,
47:51
Speaker 2: But like I think that there is that Yeah, I
47:53
Speaker 2: mean I don't know if it's because we call her
47:57
Speaker 2: mother Earth. And I mean I also think that that
48:00
Speaker 2: is like a pre capitalist like I mean I want
48:03
Speaker 2: to honor the sort of like indigenous nature of that
48:05
Speaker 2: of like pacha mama, right or like gaya like yeah,
48:09
Speaker 2: like life and women are powerful yeah and nodu alerts
48:13
Speaker 2: and women are powerful and dangerous right and so yeah,
48:16
Speaker 2: like you want to control that power, you want to
48:19
Speaker 2: take from it, and like, you know, I think that
48:21
Speaker 2: there's there's something there. Yeah. Even if I initially was
48:24
Speaker 2: like maya, yeah, I will say that I think there's
48:27
Speaker 2: there is something there.
48:28
Speaker 1: I do too. That's why I wanted to get your opinion.
48:30
Speaker 1: It's not the reason we have the climate crisis, but.
48:34
Speaker 2: Like let's talk about what how it is true or
48:37
Speaker 2: how I see it now? Yeah?
48:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, Okay, a little rapid fire, Okay. A trip
48:44
Speaker 1: that changed your life.
48:45
Speaker 2: After my husband and I got married, we we had
48:49
Speaker 2: saved money for like three years and we traveled the
48:52
Speaker 2: world for almost a year. So we spent like three
48:55
Speaker 2: months in South America, three months in East and West
49:00
Speaker 2: West and East Africa, and then three months in Southeast Asia.
49:02
Speaker 2: And it was like a really fun way to start
49:04
Speaker 2: a marriage.
49:05
Speaker 1: What was your first job.
49:06
Speaker 2: My first job was at the Pippins Twin Kiss in
49:11
Speaker 2: my hometown of Danville, Pennsylvania, where I served soft serve
49:14
Speaker 2: ice cream ye, and through a little window. And then
49:16
Speaker 2: I also worked. I like grilled hamburgers and Pride Frenchies.
49:21
Speaker 1: A really supportive gesture that a mom friend has made
49:24
Speaker 1: for you.
49:25
Speaker 2: Oh just oh, I mean didn't ask, didn't plan, just
49:31
Speaker 2: left groceries and food outside of my doors, Like, didn't
49:34
Speaker 2: ask me to do any thinking, just left stuff for me.
49:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that hope is a discipline. What are
49:41
Speaker 1: you hopeful about right now?
49:42
Speaker 2: I am hopeful about. I've been going through some stuff
49:45
Speaker 2: in my personal life and in my family, and like
49:49
Speaker 2: dealing with thinking about my family of origin and like
49:51
Speaker 2: patterns that are repeating, and I feel really hopeful that
49:54
Speaker 2: you know, to take it away from society and all
49:56
Speaker 2: that stuff, just like that I am capable of great
50:00
Speaker 2: personal change and that the people close to me are
50:03
Speaker 2: able to do that, and that we as human beings
50:06
Speaker 2: continue to grow and to learn, even if that's really uncomfortable,
50:11
Speaker 2: that people are still committed to doing that makes me
50:15
Speaker 2: so hopeful.
50:16
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you your question, who really took
50:19
Speaker 1: care of you? Who made you you?
50:22
Speaker 2: There's you know, there's been a lot of people like you.
50:24
Speaker 2: I can think of like several people, but today, I
50:28
Speaker 2: think about when I was in high school. I had
50:30
Speaker 2: a teacher. Her name was Anna Helvig, and she was
50:35
Speaker 2: like the school newspaper advisor, and she was like my
50:39
Speaker 2: speech and debate coach. And she was just like, oh
50:42
Speaker 2: you and books and words like this is what you're
50:44
Speaker 2: going to do, like this is what you're meant to do.
50:47
Speaker 2: And I didn't see that in myself. Yeah, and I
50:50
Speaker 2: didn't totally understand, but I was like, well, if missus
50:53
Speaker 2: Helbig thinks that I can do this. Yeah, she was
50:56
Speaker 2: like a person who treated me. She didn't treat me
50:59
Speaker 2: as a child, and she didn't treat me as a girl.
51:01
Speaker 2: She treated me like exactly as I was at that time.
51:03
Speaker 2: I was like a young adult whom she treated me
51:06
Speaker 2: that way and like trusted me with like conversations and
51:09
Speaker 2: ideas that I could grow into. And I still think
51:12
Speaker 2: about her a lot.
51:13
Speaker 1: That's kind of what you do now, conversations and ideas.
51:16
Speaker 1: So she was a part of it.
51:18
Speaker 2: There we go.
51:19
Speaker 1: What's a book you have read that has changed your life?
51:22
Speaker 1: Something you think everybody should read.
51:23
Speaker 2: Oh, I think everyone should read Kindred by Octavia Butler.
51:29
Speaker 2: It is sort of speculative fiction. It's called and It's
51:34
Speaker 2: a time traveling novel, and I think everyone in America
51:36
Speaker 2: should read it because it has without giving too much away,
51:40
Speaker 2: it has a way of explaining the way that anyone
51:43
Speaker 2: who lives in America is like complicit and implicated in
51:48
Speaker 2: our history, but can also move beyond our history.
51:52
Speaker 1: Interesting. The smartest decision you've ever.
51:55
Speaker 2: Made to decide. I decided about like four years ago
52:00
Speaker 2: that I was only interested in making my life easier.
52:04
Speaker 2: I love it. Doesn't mean that I'm not willing to work,
52:06
Speaker 2: but I'm not trying to make anything harder.
52:08
Speaker 1: So one of my favorite questions that I ask people
52:10
Speaker 1: is what would it look like if it were easy?
52:13
Speaker 1: Because I think we always complicate things. Yeah, okay, question everything,
52:17
Speaker 1: fifty two cards? Okay, pick which everyone calls you?
52:20
Speaker 2: I love this? Oh no, here, no, here we go?
52:26
Speaker 2: Am I asking you this?
52:28
Speaker 1: You have to answer?
52:28
Speaker 2: Okay, when have you felt the closest to magic in
52:32
Speaker 2: your life? For me, it's whenever I'm on a shore
52:37
Speaker 2: and I see bioluminescence. I mean, that's trippy, right? What else?
52:42
Speaker 3: I mean?
52:43
Speaker 2: I know it's technically like bacteria or something, but it's magic, right.
52:47
Speaker 2: And also bacteria is like cool like we gets a
52:50
Speaker 2: bad rap, but it's also very cool. And I think
52:53
Speaker 2: like it's it's nature. When I have these moments of
52:55
Speaker 2: feeling like this is always out here, I'm part of nature,
52:59
Speaker 2: and like I share something with this And when I
53:03
Speaker 2: feel that sort of like tingly bit of the universe,
53:06
Speaker 2: that's that's magic to me.
53:08
Speaker 1: I just had a stylist in earlier and she said
53:12
Speaker 1: designers are my rock stars. And I was looking at
53:15
Speaker 1: her and I was looking at you, and I'm like,
53:17
Speaker 1: writers are my rock stars. And I so, first of all,
53:20
Speaker 1: you have to sign my book, but I just want
53:22
Speaker 1: to say thank you, thank you. You're a rock star.
53:30
Speaker 1: I want to thank the people that make this show possible.
53:33
Speaker 1: Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe, and Phil speed Tech. Okay,
53:38
Speaker 1: you know what time it is. Today's a good day.
53:41
Speaker 1: To have a good day. I'll see you next week.