Latest / Aired Out / License plate readers in Barre City?

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License plate readers in Barre City? · Aired Out

• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Top of the morning. Brand new day. The sun is shining.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: It's going to be, uh, Well, beautiful, quite frankly, for today. Anyway,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: 68 right now in the Granite City. 76 later, partly
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: cloudy skies. Tonight, Thunder Road, few clouds, 46. I think
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: it's run what you brung night up at T-Road. Weather
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: should be great for it. Tomorrow, Friday, partly sunny, 68.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Saturday looks good. Sunshine and 77. Like the sound of that.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: If you got outdoor projects... You should be in luck
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: on Saturday. Better of the two, you bet. Sunday, rain
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: and thunderstorms and 77. We got Spider-Man and By Any
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Means playing at the Capitol Showplace Theater this weekend. We
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: got Coyote versus Acme at the Paramount. We're going to
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: have all the listings posted up for you. Don't freak out.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: It's going to be a great weekend, at least the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: second half of it, to get to a movie. Listen,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: if you are traveling through Barrie this week, exercise some patience,
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: especially on Route 14 and around South Main Street and
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Hill Street. Expect construction activity. Expect delays. Pack your stuff
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: and pack some patience, too. Crews are working as hard
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: as they can. through Friday from 9 to 5 around
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: the railroad crossing.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Yes. It's going to be a little dusty and a
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: little dirty. Sitting right next to me on the curvy
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: couch this morning is our police chief, Brad Vail. Good morning. Welcome.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're here.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Good morning. Happy to be here.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: The Facebook question of the day this morning– And it's
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: the F word. It's flock, flock license plate readers. Do
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: you believe that they're in Barry? I've seen it all
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: over social media. I've seen it on the Barry Vermont
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: resident chat. I've seen it on the Barry City resident chat.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Everybody's talking about flock license plate readers. I think the
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: million-dollar question is.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Do we have them in Barrie City?
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: We do not have.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Wait a second! Did you say we do not?
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: We do not have flock cameras or flock license plate
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: readers in Barrie City.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Are you sure about that?
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: I am 100% positive.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: 100%?
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: Correct. Not 99.9?
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: Nope, 100%.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: Listen, you know, one of the questions that I saw
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: on very vermont resident chat is who authorized these when
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: was it approved who paid for it when was it
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: installed and in how and when was the public notified jeez.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: All right so uh let's let's let's get down in
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: the weeds here um so as everyone knows and is
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: also a topic of conversation on the chat groups on
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: the Facebook pages. Um, some of the activities that have
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: been going on over the past year, two years down
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: in city hall park, all of the panhandling issues that
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: folks have complained about everything that has been going on
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: in the city. So we have taken great measures, um,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: to address those quality of life concerns. Yeah. One of
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: those measures was cameras. And, um, Many people did not
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: know that for years there has been a camera on
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: City Hall that has monitored City Hall Park. It was
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: here when I got here four years ago. They had
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: inadvertently let that subscription to that camera expire. And that
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: camera had been used previously. Um, for evidentiary purposes, if
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: an event occurred in the park, um, the officers could, uh,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Rick Taft was the one that managed that the old, uh,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: HR slash it director for the city. And we would
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: go and say, Hey, you know, can, can you get
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: some camera footage between this time and this time? Because
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: we had this issue. And like I said, that had expired.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: But one of the measures we had taken to address
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: some of the issues, Curb, some of the issues going
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: on around in the city down here, and specifically in
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: that area, was the idea of security cameras.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: Sure. A big discussion.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. We've discussed this ad nauseum, if you will, with
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: city council. They were all held in public session at
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: its April 22nd 2025, um, council meeting, the system was approved. Um,
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: out of that arose a policy, which also, um, was
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: created that went before council that was approved as well,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: that outlines, um, the use of that, who can access it,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: what it can be used for. And in that whole, um, discussion,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: we had discussed where, where would you like these cameras?
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So there are cameras on City Hall that monitor the park.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: There's a camera on Elm Street, and that's been talked
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: about on Facebook groups, that is on the traffic light
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: pole that there's an arm that comes up with a
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: camera that also monitors that area down in City Hall Park.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: There is one at the intersection of Maple and 62,
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: which is the one that's most recently caused a lot
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: of concern because that has went up. That was the
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: last one of that bunch that we were able to
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: get up.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you come to that Mr. Z's intersection,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: just look, you'll see it. It's up there.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's absolutely right there. It's just monitoring the intersection. Sure.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And I can go into detail about some of the
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: statutory requirements. I'll touch on those to try to allay
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: some public concern as well in a second. But We
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: also have cameras in the back on Merchant's Row at
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: this point. Would I love to have more cameras in
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: the city? 100%, absolutely. I think they serve a great purpose.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: These cameras are used specifically for if there's an incident,
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: they can be used for pre-arrival instructions for officers. For instance,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: just take the one at Maple and 62. Say there
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: was a fight in the middle of the intersection. the
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: dispatchers can look at the cameras and say, you know,
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: it's actively going on so-and-so, you know, there's one individual
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: that has a knife. If they can see a knife, you,
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: you know, there's an individual with a red shirt, they're
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: running this way, they're going that way. So it's, it's
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: used for pre-arrival instructions. It is used for evidentiary purposes
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: after the fact of an event that occurs. So for instance,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: If you have an accident there or if you have
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: an incident down in City Hall Park, we will look
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: at the camera footage for evidence. Sure. And those things
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: are used to bolster the case in court.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: So it's also used for monitoring road conditions. You can
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: look at the camera and see what the road condition
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: is in the wintertime. Yeah. Obviously, we have officers out
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: on the road, but the dispatcher can also see those
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: road conditions.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Two comments here from folks. Same guy, Scott, saying, I
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: have flock detection. There are not any in Barry or Montpelier.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: But also says Fourth Amendment violation.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: Is the individual claiming that it's a Fourth Amendment violation?
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It would be suggestive of that.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: So here's the deal. If I walk right down Main Street,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: businesses have camera systems. Residents have camera systems. Everybody's out
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: there with a cell phone. Anything in public, you have,
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: under the Fourth Amendment, you have what's called expectation of privacy. Yeah.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: you know, think of that as your house. Think of
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: that as, you know, I can't just walk into your bedroom.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Um, you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the public.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: If anybody can video it.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: That privacy is gone.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: So, um, it is not a fourth amendment violation, um,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: which is, which is a good segue to bring me in, uh,
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: to some statutory, um, prohibitions that the citizens may not
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: be aware of. Um, For instance, license plate readers. In
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: the state of Vermont, license plate data, if you are
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: an agency that has license plate readers, which Berry City
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: is not, I used to work for an agency down
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: in Hartford, Vermont, that at one time back in the
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: 90s or 2000s maybe, did have license plate readers. All
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: that data goes to the Vermont Information Center, VCIC. It's
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: commonly known as, or we call it the VIC, the
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Vermont Information Center. Statutorily, if I want to look at
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: that data, I have to request it in writing. I
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: have to have a specific law enforcement legitimate purpose to
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: get that. And I have to, they have to approve it.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: So I can't just say, you know, hey, my ex-girlfriend's
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: plate is ABC 123. do you have any hits on
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: this plate? They're not going to approve that. So I
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: couldn't even view that data without a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Now,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: if we had a child abduction, a missing person, a
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: major criminal investigation, a homicide, they knew the plate of
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: the individual that fled the scene, that would be a
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: legitimate law enforcement purpose to request to see if that
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: plate pinged any license plate reader. So there is a
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: statutory prohibition that limits us what we can do with that.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: The other thing I will say, because facial recognition has
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: come up in some of these discussions, people may not
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: be aware that in 2020, it's called S-124. It was
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: a bill that the legislature passed back in 2020. that
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: put a moratorium on facial recognition. And I brought all
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: these documents with me. Anybody's welcome to look them up.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: So there is a moratorium on facial recognition that we
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: in Vermont cannot use facial recognition. Now, with any piece
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: of legislation, they always come back and say, ah, we
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: missed something. So the following year, and that one is
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: called H-195, in 2021, they made an exception to that
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: moratorium where if it's involving child sexual exploitation, then you
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: can use it if you're investigating child sexual exploitation. So
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: we can't even use facial recognition.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Or trafficking?
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, trafficking. So we can't even use facial recognition. Now,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: some of these systems that are out there have the capability.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: For instance, the system that we use in the city
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: is by Verkata. Verkata does have the capabilities to use
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: facial recognition. When we put those in, we worked with
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the company and said, hey, we can't use this, so
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: don't include this in the plan. So we can't use
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: facial recognition. We can't use license plate data. specifically unless
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: we have a legitimate reason to use it.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Interesting. You know, Tina just dropped a comment here that
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: is very much aligned with where I come from. This
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: is just my opinion. She says, if you aren't doing
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: anything wrong, then why is anyone worried? Cameras should be
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: everywhere in this day and age. Yeah, I mean, Honestly,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: it's like you wouldn't want to take a million pictures
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: of my license plate and my face and whatever. I
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: could give a damn. I think that's great, but that's
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: just my opinion, man. It's like a lot of people
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: are like, what violation of my privacy?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: And again, I just want to point out that as
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: law enforcement officers, we do not have the time to
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: just sit there and, and, and stare at a camera
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: screen and go, Oh, Hey, look at this guy in
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: the white car.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Um, he's picking his nose.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: We, we, we don't have the time to do that.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: When a call comes in and says, you know, Hey,
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: there's an armed robbery at Duncan. You can bet your
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: booty that they're going to look at that camera at
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: maple and 62 and say, you know, Hey, they, they
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: said they're leaving in a, you know, a red, whatever
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: they're going to be looking for a red, whatever. To
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: see where it goes. But they don't sit there and
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: actively stare at a monitor and watch these cameras. Doesn't happen.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: I'm on the flocksafety.com website here. And I'm going to
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: play you what I have here.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: If it flies.
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: There's a common misconception that flock tracks you wherever you go.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: And that's just not the case. The reality is that
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: flock LPR will take a picture in a single point
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: in time from a single location. And the only information
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: that's there is the back of the car, the public
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: information that you would see with your own eyeballs, public
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: information about the vehicle, the color of the vehicle, ABC one, two,
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: three on the license plate, which by the way, the
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: government requires you have on the back of your car
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: for the purposes of being observed in the plain view.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: That's the only information.
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: That's being captured. Do you think that license plates are
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: private information? A lot of people do. It's a very
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: common perception. But in fact, license plates are required by
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: law in all 50 states to be displayed on any
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: vehicle that is using the public roadways. And they're required
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: specifically to correlate to ownership of that vehicle.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: People wonder, does a flock license plate reader use facial
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: recognition technology? No, it never has. It's taking a picture
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: of the back of a car. It is not observing humans.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: It's not tracking people. There's no race or gender identification.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: There's no biometrics in a flock LPR device, period. Some
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: people say that our LPR technology collects sensitive information like
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: names or addresses, and that's simply not true. Our LPR
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: system does not have access to those types of personal identifiers.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: In fact, the cameras only see vehicle license plates and
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: vehicle characteristics, all things that are public information in the
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: plain view. Now, this ensures that privacy protections are deeply
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: embedded in how our systems function.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: All this pretty similar to what you've heard, what you know. Absolutely.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: And like I said, I came from an agency that
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: had used license plate readers, and when they first came
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: out in the state of Vermont, the statement was made,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: which will corroborate what the flock statements that you just
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: heard were. A license plate reader can only do what
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: a law enforcement officer would normally be able to do,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: but it can do it quicker. So if I'm behind
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: you and I look at your car and I see
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: you have a red Mercury license plate ABC123, I can
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: radio in your vehicle plate and run it through the
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: DMV database when I pull you over, and I can
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: see that, hey, the registered owner has an arrest warrant
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: or whatever is tied to that information. The license plate
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: reader can do that quicker, but it's the same thing
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: that a cop can do normally. And that's what was
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: stated when the LPRs first came out in the state
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: of Vermont. I don't know how many agencies, if any,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: are using license plate readers. We used to have them
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: mounted on our trunks.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Where?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: When I was down in Hartford.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: They were mounted on the trunks, and you'd drive around,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: and it would just be taking pictures of the license plates.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: It would simultaneously run them, and you may get an
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: alert that that vehicle is stolen. Okay. And it would
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: just do it quicker than what an officer could do manually.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: The data was stored for a period of time. And again,
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: like I just stated, you have to have a legitimate
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: use to ask to query that data.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, you're saying all this, but you're also
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: saying that you're teaching us stuff, but Barry doesn't even
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: have this yet.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: We don't have it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Will we? I say yet. Will we? Are there discussions
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: about it?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: There have been no discussions to have any flock or
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: license plate reader capabilities here in the city.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: One of the comments that I saw in the Barry,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Vermont resident chat, and I really— I'm hesitant to even
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: mention this because I have not verified this, but the
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: writer talks about VT Digger doing a report about Vermont
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Are you familiar with this? That they've done more than
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: 100 searches of flock?
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Tell me about this.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: So the way the Vermont Digger had relayed the story,
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: they claimed that there was a loophole in the Vermont
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: law that said, you know, police departments can query out-of-state
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: flock systems. That is absolutely correct. There are flock systems
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: on Interstate 91 right on the Massachusetts border.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: As there should be.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Yes. Departments can call up with a legitimate purpose, can
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: call up and request through a certain network, which is
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: called NESPIN, New England State Police Informational Network, and request
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: if you have a plate number, hey, was this pinged
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: in that area on any one of those systems? Again,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: it's used for legitimate purposes. If you have a missing child,
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: if you have a kidnapping, if you have a homicide investigation,
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: you're looking for the suspect, you can call and request
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: a run of the system, a search to see if
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: that plate pinked.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: What about drug activity?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: That is also acceptable, yes. Okay.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: One of our Scott is saying, Williston? Do we know
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: anything about Williston?
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: What about if they're... I don't think they have flock.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: I have no idea.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Okay. All right. But it's not here in Barrie.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: It is not here in Barrie City.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: All right. And you haven't been approached by council or
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: anyone saying, hey, let's talk about the possibility of having No. Flock.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: I have not.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Plate readers.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: I have not. And I would imagine just based on
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: the climate of our council that we wouldn't even go
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: down that road to get flock. I don't have a
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: desire to have flock in the community.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Not for any particular reason. I just I know it's
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: caused a lot of concern and a lot of chatter
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: throughout the communities. And I've seen you can go on
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: the Internet and you can find where towns, municipalities, even
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: police chiefs have come out and made statements against flock
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: and have taken flock cameras down if they've had them.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And it's just not a road that I want to
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: go down. Do I do I think they're valuable? Yeah, sure.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: but it's not something I'm looking to get.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Some great comments coming in here this morning, and
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: on all sides. You can't be everywhere at once, says Chino.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Taylor says, my biggest concern with the idea of flat
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: cameras is who manages the info and the footage. I'd
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: much rather the local authorities here in Barry or even
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Vermont in general have a hold of this kind of
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: stuff rather than some big corporation who's just in it
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: for the money. Yeah.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I will, I will tell you that, um, um, if I,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: I can guarantee probably there will be something coming in
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: the legislature about, about this, about flock cameras in the next, uh, session,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I would imagine because it's been such a hot, uh,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: a hot topic. Um, Vermont is usually ahead of the curve, uh,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: when it comes to prohibitions and restrictions. You look at
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the United States Constitution, and then you look at the
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: Vermont Constitution, and we have more restrictions in Vermont than
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: the US Constitution gives. For instance, there's a thing called
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: the Carroll Doctrine. If people aren't familiar with it, they
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: can look it up. The Carroll Doctrine says a motor
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: vehicle based on the fact that it's movable, you can
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: search it based on those things. Vermont doesn't recognize the
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Carroll Doctrine. We can't recognize it. There's another thing. Let's
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: talk about household trash. If you throw, in more places
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: in the country, if you throw your trash out on
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: the curb, it's quote-unquote abandoned. And the officers can go
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: through your trash and do what's called a trash rip.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: And in other places of the country, they actually do this.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: In Vermont, you cannot do that without a warrant. You
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: cannot go through somebody's trash until it is physically in
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the landfill. So you need a warrant for that. So
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Vermont has more restrictions than many places in the country.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: And like I said, we have this moratorium on facial recognition.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: We have these prohibitions on license plate reader data. You know,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: drones were a big topic at one point in Vermont.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Legislature got ahead of the curve, and there's a whole
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: statute about drone usage, what we can and can't do. And,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: you know, the restrictions are there to protect the safeguards
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: of the people. And, you know, it is what it is.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: How do you, you know, what do you say to.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: People who are concerned about this, but then will run
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: to any city, anywhere. Any city.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Excuse me.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, New York City, anywhere. You can't
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: take three steps without... Right. Being watched and facially recognized.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. You look at, for instance, some of the high-profile
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: cases like the Boston bombing, the Marathon bombing. You look at,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: who was it, the medical insurance guy that got killed in,
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: I think it was New York City. They have cameras everywhere.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And they go through that system. And when you look
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: at these high-profile cases, you'll see the snapshots of the
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: people walking down the street. You see it on TV
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: when you're watching the story about the news. It's not
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: something you think of when you routinely go to New
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: York City. You know, if you go catch a game
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: down there, if you catch the Yankees or the Mets.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: You're thinking about the game.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: You're thinking about the game. You get off the bus.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: You have no clue. But, you know, you can bet
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: your bottom dollar that, you know, if you're involved in
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: a shooting or something down in the city, they're going
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: through all the cameras. And they have– Even on the subways. Yeah,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: even on the subways. And a lot of metropolitan areas
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: have what are called real-time crime data centers where they
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: actually do have people that look at mass arrays of
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: camera screens for the real-time crime data centers.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: That's their job, to monitor those cameras. Yeah. Here in Vermont,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: you're not going to see that because you don't have
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: a metropolitan area that has the capability of staffing and resources.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: But if you're really sensitive to this stuff, probably shouldn't
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: go anywhere.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Including to the Mohegan Sun Casino or any casino.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Whether it's a concert or otherwise.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, casinos have. They have cameras everywhere.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: You're being filmed before you even get out of your
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: car in the parking garage.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I implemented here was, and
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: you can read about it on our website, it's called
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: the Barry SafeCam program. What I was looking to do was,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: there's so many folks that have ring doorbell cameras, other systems,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: And what I wanted to do is to have those folks,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: if they were willing, not forcing them to, to register
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: with us the fact that, hey, my name is so-and-so,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I live at this address, and I have a Ring
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: doorbell camera or whatever brand, and I have retention in
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: the cloud or whatever. So if there's a crime in
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: that area, instead of having to go door-to-door and knocking
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: on everybody's door, do you have any surveillance cameras we
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: could look at? when I put this out, again, it
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: created some controversy and criticism. People were like, you know,
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I'm not participating in this. How dare you? You'll need
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: a warrant to get my system. That's not what it
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: was about. It was just to, you know, if you
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: were a citizen that wanted to assist and a crime
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: occurred in your neighborhood.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Voluntary cooperation.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. You may have caught something on camera that could
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: help us solve that crime. And if you were willing,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: you could share that data with us. Yeah.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was it. That was done in Rhode
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Island during that shooting.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, we, we, we just, just yesterday,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: we had an accident in the city and thankfully, You know,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: there were children involved. There were injuries. I got an
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: email from a resident that said, hey, an accident just
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: occurred outside of my house. Emergency services are there. I
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: just want to let you know that my camera system
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: picked up the whole thing. That's great. I was thankful
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: for that because, you know, a snapshot of what happened
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: is worth a thousand words. And you know, hey, that's
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: great for that citizen to come forward and say, you know, hey,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: I have video of that.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: So how do people do this? If they're not familiar
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: with this, and they are now, what do they do?
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Pick up the phone and call you and say, yeah?
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: You're more than welcome to.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah. If they want to participate in that Berry
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: SafeCam program, again, you can find it on our website.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: There's a document that you can fill out and send
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: in and ask some questions about Um, there's also a, um,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: a statement in there that, you know, asks if, if
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: you're going to be doing this for evidentiary purposes that
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: you can't also go before we use it. You can't
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: go to like WCAX and say, Hey, look what I got. Sure. Um,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: you know, cause that could, that could hinder an investigation. Um,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: so if you want to participate, you just check the
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: box to these, these agreements and you fill out, uh,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: the form and, It comes to us and it has,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: you know, your name, your address, what type of system
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: you have and the retention limits on it. So we know,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: you know, because some of these can rewrite within 24 hours.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Some can have 90 days or whatever the homeowner has
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: or the business owner has set up. Just so we know,
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: you know, hey, we got a little bit of time
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: to get there to see if that video system has
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: anything on it.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Comment here, did the same thing on a hit and run.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Elderly couple were hit and spun out off-road. So, you know,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: what's amazing is, you know, for the folks that are
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: super anti- cameras in general, whether it's, you know, license
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: plate readers or otherwise, when it When they are involved
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: in something, they're probably very receptive.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: To somebody else having video of it?
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. If you're a victim of a crime, you
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: want that solved. You know, and you could go down
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: the whole discussion of, you know, do the ends justify
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: the means fourth amendment rights, you know, some of the
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: comments that, that we were discussing here. Um, you know,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: that's why, that's why they, they have the safeguards on
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: how you can use this data.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Um, has it happened somewhere in the country where, you know,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: an officer probably misused to, to track an X or whatever.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: No doubt. I guarantee you it happened. I, you know, um,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: They have these safeguards for these reasons. We're not just
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: going to willy-nilly track people because we want to. We
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: don't have the time for that, for one. But, you know,
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: they're used for legitimate law enforcement purposes.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: You know, what about dash cams? I mean, body cams.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: You know, and again— I have a dash cam.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: If you look— speaking of body cams, there's a statewide mandatory—
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: body worn camera policy that every agency, if they're going
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: to use body cameras have to adopt.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: That's new.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: That's not new.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Well, that's not, I thought that was a July 1st thing.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Uh, no, it was, it was, well, it's, it's recent,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: but not, it's not really new. It's, it's been a
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: few years.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: That it's mandatory that you have to wear a body camera.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: No, it's mandatory that if you use body cameras, you
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: have to abide by the body worn camera policy. And there's, again,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: there's prohibitions in that. Um, it, Anybody can look online,
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: see the policies. The Vermont Criminal Justice Council has all
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: those mandatory policies on their site. Berry City PD on
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: our website. Anybody, all of our policies are public facing.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: You can go on and read all of my policies.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: You can see the body worn camera policy, which is
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: the state's policy just in my format. And there's prohibitions
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: on when you can use it. It talks about schools.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: It talks about hospitals. It talks about if you go
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: in somebody's house, you have to tell them, hey, we're recording.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: If they say you can't, you need to leave. There's
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: certain circumstances about that.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: So everything, again, I talked about Vermont being ahead of
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: the curve. Everything that comes out, there's generally a state
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: mandatory policy that we have to abide by regarding that.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I thought I... read or saw something that it was
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: going to be mandatory that police.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe, maybe they're working on that. Um, you know, I
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: don't know. They do have, um, one of the, one
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: of the challenges with when they come out with what
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: we call unfunded mandates is the legislature say, you shall
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: do this, but we're not going to give you any
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: money for it.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: So then it's up to the municipality to fund this
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: and figure out how to, how to pay for this. Right. Um, And,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: you know, one of the things with body cameras, the
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: body cameras themselves are not crazy expensive. But the retention
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: of that video is where they get you. One of
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: the main players in the body camera program is Axon.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: And they have a system that's called Evidence.com where all
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: the body camera video goes. Now you have to abide
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: by again, it's in the body-worn camera policy, there's data
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: retention on how long you have to hold these videos.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: So if I walk up to you and I'm on
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: the street and I just turn on my body camera
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: and I say, hey, JD, how you doing? You know,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: you asked me for directions or whatever. And then I
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: shut my camera off. 90 days, that's gone.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: 90 days, okay.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: You know, use of force, we have to hold that forever.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: Certain crimes, we have to hold We have to retain
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: those videos under these parameters that are set forth by
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: the legislatively mandated policies. And again, we have to pay
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: for that storage. So I have a 10-year contract. When
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I got here in Berry City, there were no body cameras.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: And that was first out of the gate, one of
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: the things that I wanted to implement. And the council agreed.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: They're like, hey, this is great. Let's get body cameras.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: I was able to get grant funding for the upfront
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: costs of that.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: I remember this.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: It was called, I went through the DOJ. It was
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: the small, they called it SRT, the small rural and
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: tribal agencies that had a better chance of getting funded
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: because there's a lot of grants out there. And if
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Berry City's competing with Minneapolis, we're not getting it. Minneapolis
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: is getting it. So they have different tiers. And I
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: went under the SRT grant and I was able to
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: get the funding. But on top of that, we had
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: to budget for the remainder of that. So I have
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: a 10-year contract with Axon. And in my budget, I
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: make annually $ 44, 000 payments just to maintain that data. And
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: year one's not bad, but year two and year three
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: and year four, because if the incidents that occur in
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: year one, you have to maintain them forever. Your gigabyte
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: and terabyte storage is increasing over the years.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Um, wow, man.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so all these, all these things cost. So
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: if they're going to legislatively mandate body cameras in every
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: agency who's paying for it, those municipalities have to pay
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: for them.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Listen, you, you know, back to dash cams and we,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: we got a great comment here about them, but it's like,
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I think most of us would agree that, um, police
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: forces are not massive. You guys are just not everywhere
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: all the time. Having a dash cam, and not to
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: promote self-policing and being a tattletale, but having a dash
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: cam can do more than just prove that You weren't
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: responsible for that accident.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: But also show, hey, man, you know, I'm on with
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: 911 right now. I'm behind a drunk driver who's swerving
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: all over the road. Just hit the guardrail and he's
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: still driving. um you know in case i in case
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: i lose this guy or i'm not able to follow
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: him and you police are not able to catch up
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: with them can really can really help police out yeah
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: absolutely But is that a violation of someone's privacy?
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: No, because you're, again, the reasonable expectation of privacy.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Either my dash cam or I'm holding up my cell phone.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Correct. The reasonable expectation of privacy under the Fourth Amendment,
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: there's stipulations. If you're out in public where anybody can
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: record it.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You know. I read something about when flock license
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: plate readers first came out, when the Technology was pretty new.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: That there was some chatter about police using it in
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: ways that it wasn't necessarily intended. Example, I think my
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: girlfriend might be cheating on me. I'm going to ping
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: on that license plate number of the guy.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: Whatever.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Whatever. That was done away with. The kibosh was put
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: on that almost right away. Now you have to do
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: what again? You have to submit a request.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: We have to submit a written request to the VIC.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: For those purposes, to safeguard the rights of individuals.
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: It has to be a legitimate law enforcement purpose. They
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: have to approve it.
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: Wow. And.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: You know, all these things, they're there for a reason.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: And like I said, Vermont's usually ahead of the curve
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: on those things for more restrictions. Um, when it comes
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: to individual rights, like I said, just, just compare the
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Vermont constitutional, uh, Vermont constitution against the United States constitution.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: And we have more restrictions that, that guide us.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: There's so many different ways, uh, to, to look at this.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: And I, I respect all, all different angles here. And
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: there's a few folks that in the comments here that, well,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: anyone who's commented here this morning is more than welcome
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: to come on the air. And I hope they do,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: but there's different ways of thought here. There's listen, if you,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: if you have, if you're not doing anything wrong, then
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: you have nothing to be worried about, you know, just
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: like going through, uh, you know, the airport screener. I
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: don't care if you randomly pull me aside, you want
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: to search the crap out of me. That doesn't, I
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: think it's great. They're doing their job.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: That's wonderful.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Look, you know, look at the TSA. Um, now you
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: have to take your shoes off. Give a damn, you know.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: I'll take my shirt off. If I have to, you.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Have to wait in line for, you know, you can
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: wait in line for extended period of time.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: You don't care.
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: Take your shoes off. You have to empty your pockets.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: You got to put them in a bin.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Don't care.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: Um, Then, you know, you walk into the scanner and
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: you put your arms above your head and they're looking
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: at your body. Sure. You know, to see what you
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: got there. If you're, you know, if you're hiding something
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: within your body or whatnot.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: You know what I'm hiding inside my body? I got
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: a fake shoulder. I got a metal shoulder and I've
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: been pinging alarms here for the last year. And what's
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: going on with this guy? Blah, blah, blah. They're coming over,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: they're all suspicious and whatnot. I don't care. I'm glad
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: they're suspicious. They're doing their damn job. I don't care.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Question me.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I love it. And I'm sure you're getting comments, like
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: you said, on both sides of the fence. It's a balance.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: There's people that, more cameras, good thing. If you're not
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: doing anything wrong, you don't have to worry about. Then
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: there's others that are like, even if you're not doing
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: anything wrong. Violation of your privacy. Who really has any
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: privacy anymore? My God. Turn your phone on. Your phone's
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: listening to you. Your algorithm sits watching what you're doing,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: who you're talking to, what you're interested in, where you're
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: going this weekend. Come on. Head out of the state.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: Drive down 95. Constant pictures of your license plate for
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: the tolls and whatnot. There's that. And then there's folks
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that just want nothing to do with it. Super anti-technology, which, okay.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a balance. And since you're talking about technology,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: not to get totally off course, but artificial intelligence. Again,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: getting ahead of the curve. I attended a seminar about
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: artificial intelligence and law enforcement, and they suggested policies that
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: you should have. For instance, say you're not the best writer,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: and you're a police officer, and you have to write
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: an affidavit. You can take that affidavit, plug it into ChatGPT,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: and say, hey, spruce this up.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Refine it.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Refine it. They're suggesting that if you do that, that
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: you have a disclaimer on the, your affidavit that, you know,
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: portions of this were AI generated. You can take a
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: photo now. You could take a picture of your car.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: You could put it on chat GPT and you can say, Hey,
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: make front-end damage like I had an accident. And you
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: can send it as a joke to somebody and say, Hey,
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: I borrowed your car. I'm so sorry. I hope you
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: have insurance. And freak the person out.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: You know, it used to be, you know, when they
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: talk about AI, there used to be the thing back
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: in the day. It was called Photoshop. You know, and
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: that was artificial intelligence.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: Come on, you're dating yourself. Right? You know.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: I have a pimple on my face and I look horrible.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Remove this pimple, brush it up. That was artificial intelligence. Um, there's,
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: there's limitations on everything.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Um, it's been around for a while, but again, getting
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: ahead of the curve, like I said, this, this training
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: suggested safeguards on using AI and law enforcement.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: And it's a good thing. It hasn't been mandated here
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: yet in Vermont.
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Probably will. Um, I do have a policy in the
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: wings waiting that I haven't published yet, but it's about
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: using AI in law enforcement.
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: And, you know, as one of our listeners has commented here,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: flock technology is not perfect either. It has its issues,
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: which hopefully will go away.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: You know, cameras in and of themselves have... Again, I
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: attended a training about cameras. And I learned some things
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: that I never even knew existed. When you take a
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: picture with a video system, if there's like missing metadata,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: it fills it in based on the surroundings. So, for instance,
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: if you're videoing a tree, for instance, and the leaves
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: on the tree, if there's a missing segment of metadata
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: and all the surrounding areas are green leaves, it's going
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: to fill it in as green leaves. And there was
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: actually a case in a prison that I learned of
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: in this training where they showed the video and they
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: showed exactly what happened and how it filled in the
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: missing metadata. And it was an internal investigation of a
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: prison guard having been alleged to have done something. I'm
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: not remembering all the specifics of the case, but they
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: brought an expert in and broke down that video and
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: showed the missing data and what it filled in. And
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: it was different than what it actually was. So there
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: are limitations on video system. Okay. when it fills in
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: that missing metadata.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: Do you, as our chief, would you like to see
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: more public surveillance cameras in and around our city?
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know, and going down to, back to City
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Hall Park, there are signs that we placed all around
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: the park that says, you know, this area is under
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: surveillance by the Berry City Police Department. And I believe,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: if I'm recalling correctly, during the city council meeting where
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: all this was approved, we talked about, you know, when
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: you enter a community and it says winter parking ban,
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: November 1st to April 15th at every entrance to the community,
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: we had talked about putting up the signage that says
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: this community uses surveillance cameras. I don't know if they
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: made it up yet and I'd have to go back
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: and look into that. But we did put them up
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: around the downtown areas where the cameras are.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: All right. Just repeating what we started out. You've taught
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: me a lot today, but again, flock license plate readers.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Not here.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: Not here.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Don't exist here.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: In Berry City.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Will they? Possibly.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: I'll never say never, but I have no intentions of
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: going down that road at this point. I'm convinced that
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: the legislature will at some point have this discussion. And
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: there will either be stipulations or bans or whatever regarding this.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: But I do know that it will probably come up again.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: So I have no intention of jumping the gun and
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: putting up something that may have restrictions on or bans
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: on and having to take them down. I just have
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: no desire to do that.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: What do you say to people that are like, Chief, sorry,
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: I just don't believe you?
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: I'm an open book. You know, transparency and communication is
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: the key. And if you don't believe me, that's okay,
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: but I'm not putting them up.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Final comment here this morning, and it's from... It's from
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: someone that really stirred up my curiosity with this when
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: I saw the post on Barry VT resident chat. Billy Riley.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: SafeCam and Verkada are two very different things. With SafeCam,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: police know a camera exists and have to contact the
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: owner and ask for footage. My concern with Verkada is
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: the centralized system. and the capabilities it can provide to
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: authorized users, including centralized access, searching, sharing, and potentially identifying
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: or tracking people across connected cameras. I just lost my
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: place here. And policies saying how a system should be
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: used Don't eliminate the possibility of misuse, whether intentional or accidental,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: by someone who has legitimate access, nor do they protect
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: against unauthorized access. Hacking or vulnerabilities we may not even
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: have considered yet. Technology also changes, and capabilities that seem
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: hypothetical today may be commonplace tomorrow. So where do we
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: draw the line? Who gets to decide when that line moves?
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: I appreciate the comment. You know, I will say this. Yes,
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: you can have a policy that says you shall or
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: you shall not. Can it be violated? Absolutely. Are there
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: repercussions if you violate the policy? Absolutely. And I'll use
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: an outlandish example. for this. If I say, I need
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: 100 cops on duty because we're close to an airport
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: and a plane could crash. I need this many officers.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: If you go down the what if, could it happen? Absolutely.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: The likelihood of it happening? That plane crashing? You can't
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: You can't live your life for the what-ifs. You just can't. Again,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: there are policies. Can policies be violated? Again, absolutely they can.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: There's repercussions. You know, when speaking specifically to Verkata, when
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: we had several meetings with them through, you know, Teams
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: or Zoom or whatever it was, and we explained to them,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: here's the deal. You know, it's our data. You can't
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: use our data. They had all these, you know, in
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: the contracts, there's all these safeguards in place. Could they
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: violate it? I'm sure they could. Again.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Which Billy is raising that, you know, and he says,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: so saying there are no flock cameras in Barry doesn't
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: really address the concern.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: You know... People are– again, I said it was a balance.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: People have concerns about their privacy rights. If you look
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: at the situation of being out in public, I could
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: sit here with my phone and I could record these
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: cars that are driving by your studio here. I could
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: monitor people walking by. I could see what they're doing.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: I could take pictures of them. There's nothing that the
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: individual can do if I'm out there snapping photos of them.
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Because they have no reasonable expectation of privacy in public.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: And that's that balance with the safeguards in place. That's
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: why all the safeguards get put in place. Can there
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: be mistakes? Can there be violations? Sure. Again, it's a
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: level of trust that you have to be comfortable with.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: We just did a road trip this summer and went
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: through several states and chatted with folks, and they were like, yeah,
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: You run a red light or maybe a stop sign.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: Ticket is automatically generated and it's in the mail.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'll, you know, kind of, kind of funny.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: Is that going to happen in Barry?
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: No. Kind of a funny story that you mentioned that.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: When I was attending the FBI National Academy, I worked
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: for Hartford PD when I went through down in Washington, D.C.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: When I was headed down there. I had a department vehicle.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: It was unmarked and I was driving along and all
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: of a sudden the speed limit changed and I didn't
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: know it. And I was, you know, I'm sitting there
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: wondering like, Hey, what, why are all these, why did
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: all these cars slow down all of a sudden? Cause
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: I'm an out of stater and I'm driving through everybody
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: else knew I was on camera. And you know, a
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: week later, my, my chief sends me a message. sends
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: me a picture of the car I was driving and says, hey,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: you got a ticket. What are you going to do
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: about it? So I had to pay $ 100. Yeah, yeah,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I got a ticket in an unmarked car for going
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: a little bit over the speed limit down in Washington, D.C.,
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: headed to the academy. And it was the back of
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: my car. They had no idea who was driving. Again,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: it was the back of my car with the license plate,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: the department's vehicle.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Did you fight that in court?
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I paid the ticket. I paid $ 100. It's amazing.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: You know, trying to keep up with all of this
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: is overwhelming at times. There's a lot to unpack here.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: And we're just scratching the surface in an hour's time.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: But I really appreciate you coming in here and having
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: some transparency.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: You know, and to your point, to your listening public
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: I'm an open book transparency communication it's key anybody wants
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: to have a discussion anytime I try to if you
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: go to our website I have a whole transparency section
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: that says transparency trust and transparency all my policies are
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: public facing if anybody has any questions just ask you
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: know they go on Facebook And piece of information, misinformation,
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: what have you, it just stirs up controversy. Sometimes it's
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: probably done on purpose, you know, to create chaos. But nonetheless,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: if people want to know, get involved.
• 58:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: You know, investigate.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right.
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: You know, some of the comments on the Facebook page were,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: you know, does city council know about this? Did they
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: approve this? Yeah, it's in their minutes. They have the
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: video of the meetings. People can attend council. There's a
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: public comment section before council starts at 6 o'clock. Anybody
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: can come up and address council.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: So what you're saying is maybe not be so emotionally
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: reactional on your keyboard at the end of the day
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: on social media.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: If you want the information, it's out there. You know,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: go to the source. Ask. I'll tell you where the
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: cameras are, what cameras we have, what they're used for,
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: what they're not used for.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Chief.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: No problem.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming in. Thanks for liking and following the page.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: Thanks for following along today. Thanks for your time. comments,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: no matter what they are. And, you know, I'm going
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: to go back, and I know Chief will too, and
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: read all of these comments. But if anybody would like
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: to come on the air, Billy, Scott, Josh, anybody, and
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: talk about this, please, you're welcome. These aren't my mics.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: They're your mics. So thanks for, uh, staying with us today.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Thanks for your comments. Thanks for sharing this one. We're
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: always live. We're never edited. Just thanks for being part
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: of this. Um, I didn't get a chance to ask
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: the chief about the nunchucker in the road, but we'll, we'll,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: we'll get to it.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, Oh, wait, so this was live? I can't go
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: back and edit my appearance?
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: And you were on camera. Did you know that this
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: was a video and audio podcast, Chief?
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: This is video, too. You need to shake.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: All right. Thanks for coming in.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: Thanks.