Latest / Drinkin‘ Bros Podcast / Episode 1703 - LAPD Detective Greg Kading Who Solved 2Pac's Murder

Transcript

Episode 1703 - LAPD Detective Greg Kading Who Solved 2Pac's Murder · Drinkin‘ Bros Podcast

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Drinking Throw.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, welcome to Drinking Bros Kids.
0:13
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be a wild one today.
0:15
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, obviously you see that I'm wearing the two-pock shirt here for my homie, Dan, because that's where I grew up.
0:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You know?
0:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to choose a color at birth.
0:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I stuck with it, and then I went with it after that, kidding.
0:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But this has been a big part of, I feel like my life over the last 30 years, and everybody else's, and it never seemed to die.
0:45
[SPEAKER_01]: no pun intended there on that one, but this was the guy who solved it.
0:50
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got Greg Cating on the show who was the LAPD former LAPD detective who solved this murder years and years and years ago and I guess we'll start with the 90s when it all happened here.
1:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Where were you working and what year did you start working at the LAPD?
1:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I started my law enforcement career in the beginning of 1986, and then I transferred up to LAPD from the Orange County Sheriff's Department in 1988, and so when two Pock was killed in 1996,
1:28
[SPEAKER_00]: obviously it didn't happen in Los Angeles so it wasn't something that we were directly impacted by but I was just working games at the time and it was aware of what had happened from the news and then of course six months later, Biggie gets killed in Los Angeles and so that was a little bit more closer to home but I was just working game task forces at that time and they mid to late eighties.
1:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And did they personally assign you to this case?
1:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Or do you just kind of luck out and get a case like this?
1:58
[SPEAKER_01]: How does that work?
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I would assume, let's just call it like a dead prostitute or something, isn't that fun?
2:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But the Biggie murder and Tupac, I mean, they were so massive at the time and they were worldwide celebrities.
2:11
[SPEAKER_01]: One would think this would be a case where you're like, all right, this is kind of fun to come into work every day.
2:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what the kind of intriguing thing about it was just the challenge of it all.
2:23
[SPEAKER_00]: At the time, I got recruited into work the case.
2:27
[SPEAKER_00]: It would already be over like nine years old.
2:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So I come in in 2006 working it from a cold case perspective.
2:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was recruited in just because I had a particular background in cold case homicides and gangs and that type of thing.
2:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was a proper fit for what they were looking for, but I was just one of several people.
2:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just one of a half of a half a dozen guys that the LAPD wanted to get together in order to take a re-invigorated look at Big East case.
2:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there was a lawsuit being waged against the city of Los Angeles.
3:03
[SPEAKER_00]: based on some allocations that LAP officers were involved in Biggie's murder.
3:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And that really stimulated this renewed interest in trying to figure out who killed them.
3:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I remember that.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And if Henry serves me correctly, they were trying to say that in off duty LAP PD officer was supposed to guard him or was guarding him or was hired to guard them at the time and then they would go back to the regular job.
3:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that correct?
3:33
[SPEAKER_00]: of some way there was this general theory that the that should night had off duty officers working under his legitimate protection detail he had contracted his security out to a guy named Reggie Wright Jr. who is an ex-compton police officer and Reggie Wright Jr. would in turn hire off duty cops to provide security for death row functions and it was always
4:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything in Los Angeles gets generalized, there's a, you know, dozens of police departments out there, but when you talk about Los Angeles, you immediately begin to think, well, that must be LAPD.
4:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But there are all these different officers from different agencies that were working the security detail, including a couple from the LAPD.
4:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's where this whole theory kind of fought festored from, was that there were LAPD officers working for Shug Knight, Dephara Records, and they had something to do with Biggie's murder and retaliation for what happened in Las Vegas when Tupac was killed.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was where the whole theory or the conspiracy theory originated.
4:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's also, I don't know about Biggie specifically, but Sean Combs relied heavily on the south side crypts for security when he was in LA.
4:53
[SPEAKER_02]: And you said, I know you mentioned that two pockets clipped, and there's no,
4:58
[SPEAKER_02]: That's not a thing for you guys because it happened outside of town, but I would imagine He was he was hooked up with the the Pirate Bloods right and it's there was kind of a gang rivalry going on there wasn't I don't know if I would say people always framed it as east side west side Well, we're talking about two south elite gangs
5:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was different components to it.
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: There was the rivalry of just the record heads, the label CEOs, which was Shugnight and Sean Combs.
5:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there was the label artists.
5:32
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was,
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: two-pox record and Biggie who, at some point in time, become kind of at odds.
5:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the gains that they were affiliating with were natural enemies, but they were even more kind of active towards their rivalry when they got associated with these record labels.
5:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So there were different levels of conflict, there was the CEOs, there was the artists, and then there was the gains that they were affiliating with that doll kind of came to
6:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and now with everything that's happened with Ditty and obviously the documentary and he's in prison.
6:08
[SPEAKER_01]: There's also renewed interest in that and I had watched the documentary on Netflix.
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say like an hour after it came out.
6:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've been all in on this for like 30 years.
6:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Partially because these were two of my favorite artists as a kid growing up, and so the mystery surrounding it, but then I hear this confession with Keith D that I believe you did the confession on.
6:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it, is it the Alfred plea?
6:38
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there an Alfred plea in that case?
6:39
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
6:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Alfred plea?
6:41
[SPEAKER_02]: No, he, I can't, I'll look it up and see what it was.
6:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It was similar to an Alfred plea, but it wasn't the same.
6:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's actually, you got them to confess for everything.
6:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we did what's known as a proper agreement.
6:53
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a proper agreement.
6:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, sorry about that.
6:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
6:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we knew that Kiffy-D had been interviewed before and that he wasn't very, you know, transparent and forthright and answering questions.
7:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So we thought that, well, if we're gonna get him to sit down and answer questions honestly, we've probably got to get some leverage on him.
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So we built a drug case against him.
7:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew that he was,
7:17
[SPEAKER_00]: dealing PCP and cocaine both in state, not a state.
7:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So we took our time, built a drug case against him.
7:23
[SPEAKER_00]: That was just a rock solid, you know, had him over a barrel type of thing.
7:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's when he sat down and said, and we were there just a question.
7:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really about Biggie's case.
7:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we knew that he was at the Peterson Automuseum and the night that Biggie was killed.
7:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So we figured he knew something about Biggie's murder, but when we got there and sat down and got this agreement
7:47
[SPEAKER_00]: He says now that Dalton was in us, we didn't kill a biggie, but I can tell you about what happened in Las Vegas, which led to his confession and involvement in two parks murder.
7:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I loved about that in the documentary was how you interviewed him in such a buddy, buddy, manner, and got him to just keep talking over and over and over again.
8:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was about a six minute clip if you haven't seen the documentary where you're laughing along with him and it makes it seem like you guys are bros and he's laughing with you and then he's just spilling every single last detail about killing two poxicore.
8:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't believe that you had gotten him to do that, especially with how popular and famous the case was.
8:32
[SPEAKER_01]: What was it like sitting in that room that day?
8:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And were you shocked that he was just going to tell you everything that happened?
8:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, why don't you get to know him?
8:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You get to know his character and that he's very much about.
8:48
[SPEAKER_00]: about boasting of himself and boasting of the things that he does and how he represents the neighborhood and he's very much a legend in his own mind.
8:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So getting him to talk about himself is not really all that difficult.
9:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Having him confess to crimes, a little bit more difficult that he was again working under this proper agreement where he could talk to us.
9:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And openly admit to involvement in criminal activity without criminating himself because we agreed that we wouldn't use his own confession against him, at least in that setting.
9:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so once the ball got rolling and he had the confidence of thinking that he...
9:26
[SPEAKER_00]: wasn't going to be that he could speak to us openly without incriminating himself, then the floodgate opened and he was just answering everything that we asked him as genuinely and as detailed as possible.
9:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was really great, but this whole thing was kind of weird because I didn't know it was being recorded and there was only one person in that room that was aware that there
9:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And neither KPD, his lawyer or me and the couple other investigators even knew that it was being recorded.
10:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's why there was this informal feeling, this informal impression that we're just sitting there and kind of fucking around with each other and talking openly.
10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It might have sounded a little bit differently if we had all known that it was being recorded because when you're being recorded you know that somebody else is going to listen to that later.
10:17
[SPEAKER_00]: You have a tendency to be a little bit more reserved and what you might say and how you might act.
10:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I was shocked that the candidness of the whole conversation, and then that will lead me to the obvious question, how did 50 cents get a hold of this tape for the documentary?
10:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I may have provided that to them when they reached out and said they were doing a documentary and I wanted to expose as much of the truth as I could, because I think that this is all important storytelling that we educate the public is to things that they may be unaware of, especially when it comes to something as important as the murder of a rap
11:06
[SPEAKER_02]: 50 cent more than happy to publish that.
11:10
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if everybody knows this story, but when he was when he was putting out the doc on, Peter, he figured out what TV station, what new station broadcasts in the prison up there.
11:23
[SPEAKER_02]: and then sold it to them specifically.
11:25
[SPEAKER_02]: So a PD would have to watch it.
11:28
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the most petty human being maybe other than Donald Trump that exists in this country right now.
11:33
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're friends, so it's not shocking.
11:35
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they should team up and work on something together at some point.
11:38
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think Trump's ever bought out the first couple of rows of one of his rival's concerts and his left-of-empty.
11:45
[SPEAKER_02]: so what's the beef between them if you know I have no idea I mean they're both New York guys both former drug dealers now they don't like each other I don't know 50's more of a conservative guy and he doesn't my my understanding is he doesn't like all the weird
12:00
[SPEAKER_02]: sexual shit that was going on.
12:01
[SPEAKER_02]: The predatory sexual stuff that Puffy was out there and that's he just kind of let him up because he's gone after people for that and the past other than Then come so I don't know Yeah, I guess that was that was one of the biggest topics of this documentary which just won an Emmy by the way and The Emmy Awards were were last nights was
12:20
[SPEAKER_01]: How was this the first time we're hearing this confession?
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one, sorry, it's two on this, with the proper agreements, how is it legal that the confession is able to get out there?
12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, my guess was because he had written a book and he was going on podcast, Keith D, telling him, you know, everybody that he helped kill two-pock and all that other stuff that you guys were finally able to be like, all right, sorry, you broke the rules on this and we get to arrest you.
12:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you'd be right with that, that's exactly what happened because he went public.
12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: He, this is what the judge's rule that they could then use the confession, the recorded police confession, in court, in this recent trial, because he had gone out and publicly stated,
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, he exposed himself.
13:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And then so the conditions of the proffer were mitigated or even avoided and the judge ruled that now we could he basically inherited or adopted that into his own kind of self sabotaging situation.
13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a bunch of legal considerations and that's what I think is his appeal is going to be based on that is whether or not it was appropriate for the judge to allow that in under those circumstances.
13:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll see whether or not it was a sound legal ruling or not.
13:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then the other interesting part of this case was, you know, I'll go back to when you worked on it a long time ago, 20 years ago at this point is you were right all along.
13:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You would say, hey, it's Orlando Anderson, we definitely know who this is.
13:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We definitely know, you know, with Keith D and all these other guys, people were chatting about it behind the scenes, nobody would really confirm it, everything else, but we also didn't know that you had already gotten this confession out of him, so you knew everything across the board.
14:10
[SPEAKER_04]: Here he comes at the end of you again, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you're crying, you
14:36
[SPEAKER_04]: He's all right now, but he might do it.
14:37
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I think it was a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit
15:03
[SPEAKER_05]: So you were gonna hit the blast if you had two or you were just... We were gonna walk on over there.
15:08
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
15:09
[SPEAKER_05]: So you hand the gun to the back seat.
15:12
[SPEAKER_05]: You hear the name?
15:13
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm gonna hit the drain, right?
15:14
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no, no, no.
15:15
[SPEAKER_04]: And let me, like, give a fuck to you.
15:18
[SPEAKER_04]: You guys can hold on to side.
15:19
[SPEAKER_05]: That's essentially what you see.
15:21
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:22
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, you had one over there.
15:24
[SPEAKER_05]: And we could get on there.
15:25
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, was it tattooed or not?
15:26
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't get one over there.
15:28
[SPEAKER_05]: So if he wasn't out of y'all up to girls at that time, today we'll be back in the morning with you while I'm shooting.
15:36
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, Lane says he's blasting.
15:40
[SPEAKER_05]: He said he should look over his shoes.
15:44
[SPEAKER_05]: He looks right at you.
15:46
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
15:50
[SPEAKER_05]: Don't you don't see him somewhere, you know?
15:56
[SPEAKER_05]: When he was over to, and then you know, two bucks didn't get in the shot and then the story of two bucks trying to either get out of like, I see you from, yeah, what do you see happening in the second day?
16:08
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll see the movie going to the end of the day.
16:12
[SPEAKER_05]: Don't get it, you need it, but it's great, you know something like that, he's a glassman in his neck right here.
16:14
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and the yellow thing and
16:41
[SPEAKER_03]: Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid
17:04
[SPEAKER_05]: or what you give the drain drink is it for that dog?
17:07
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
17:26
[SPEAKER_04]: Shut the fuck up!
17:27
[SPEAKER_04]: You did it!
17:27
[SPEAKER_04]: I got that.
17:28
[SPEAKER_04]: I wrote, what did you know?
17:29
[SPEAKER_04]: Where did you go after the shooting?
17:32
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll do it.
17:32
[SPEAKER_05]: My goal?
17:33
[SPEAKER_05]: We're going right here.
17:34
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, so shooting goes down.
17:36
[SPEAKER_05]: We're trying to get the vaccine.
17:37
[SPEAKER_05]: It should be nothing out the way.
17:38
[SPEAKER_05]: You guys turned, you guys pulled off and followed by a secret.
17:43
[SPEAKER_05]: I'll see you bring some broth.
17:45
[SPEAKER_04]: Then if they go in all of the other ones.
17:47
[SPEAKER_04]: The broth?
17:48
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
17:49
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
17:50
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, come on man, we're talking about it.
17:52
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe we're doing a six-songy time at man, but it's okay, we're here.
17:55
[SPEAKER_05]: We all come down.
17:56
[SPEAKER_05]: The lanes are quite clear back on them.
17:58
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, both left.
18:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
18:00
[SPEAKER_03]: Telling you where you say each time, you keep back on the car, and you get it from the bus station.
18:05
[SPEAKER_03]: Six.
18:06
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
18:06
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's interesting.
18:07
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the world.
18:08
[SPEAKER_03]: What is it?
18:09
[SPEAKER_03]: It's quiet.
18:11
[SPEAKER_04]: Look at it.
18:12
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll be right back in a minute.
18:13
[SPEAKER_03]: We got a job.
18:15
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I mean?
18:16
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
18:17
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
18:18
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
18:18
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
18:20
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
18:20
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
18:21
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
18:22
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:23
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:24
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:24
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:25
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:26
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:26
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:27
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:28
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:28
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:29
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:30
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:30
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't.
18:31
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:32
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:34
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:35
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know.
18:43
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't think like y'all, you tell a child, you don't think like y'all, you tell a child, you don't think like y'all, you tell a child, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you don't think like y'all, you
19:18
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess on what T-Round they were, whatever, what they got.
19:22
[SPEAKER_04]: The woman, my concern, we did what we had to do.
19:24
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, God.
19:25
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's say it's because they're not going back in the car.
19:27
[SPEAKER_03]: Me and Lane go back in the car with the wall.
19:30
[SPEAKER_03]: He needed me at that moment.
19:31
[SPEAKER_03]: No, the next day.
19:32
[SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to take a copy of that, become a little tire, which I thought was going to be right.
19:39
[SPEAKER_01]: What was it like knowing what you knew at the time and then everybody questioning you for the next 20 years and whether or not you were being truthful about it.
19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, you know, we live in a country where there's not a whole lot of critical thinking at times.
19:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, I mean, you could present the most overwhelming evidence in a case and you're still going to get skeptics, you're still going to get conspiracy theories, you're still going to get people of it, just reject the obvious.
20:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So you just have to accept that and deal with it that there's people that are not really rationally thinking their way through these things.
20:19
[SPEAKER_00]: you get a lot of people backing you up saying hey this is really a great investigation well done we appreciate the effort and so that kind of overshadows or overwhelms any of the negativity that comes along with it.
20:32
[SPEAKER_00]: beginning vindicated DNA in court that's great i'm not really felt great because
20:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That's always the pursuit, right?
20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's always the goal is to try to hold somebody accountable for their crimes.
20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And so have his confession manifest itself into a conviction that's really, they're very satisfied.
20:55
[SPEAKER_02]: What was it?
20:56
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's, I want to go back through this case because I'm reading some stuff now.
21:02
[SPEAKER_02]: I know that, you're being diplomatic, but people are retarded.
21:10
[SPEAKER_02]: You could, it's interesting.
21:12
[SPEAKER_02]: We're patterned seeking creatures by nature, which you're a detective, you know, this is a big part of your job, actually, is to not just put pieces together, but to move the wrong ones out of the way.
21:22
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's a unique skill.
21:23
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of most people don't have that, right?
21:25
[SPEAKER_02]: We see stuff where it's not there, and we were completely oblivious to things that are right in front of our faces sometimes, because we don't have the context, or we just don't have the skills or whatever it is to put that thing together.
21:35
[SPEAKER_02]: But watching the documentaries,
21:40
[SPEAKER_02]: You seem to have it locked down pretty good.
21:43
[SPEAKER_02]: And...
21:44
[SPEAKER_02]: This is, as anybody that's, I mean, we watch this thing as a fascination now, thanks to an anti-grace and shit in the OJ trial in the 90s.
21:54
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's about narrative, right?
21:56
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about telling a story that can turn the facts into something people can understand.
22:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that that was the issue back then?
22:02
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you've had this in the back for a while.
22:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think that was the issue?
22:06
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's not your job, by the way.
22:07
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the prosecutor's job or whoever else.
22:11
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think there was a lack of narrative or a lack of imagination to put this thing together and put it in front of people to make a convincing argument?
22:18
[SPEAKER_02]: What was the stall?
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: that's a really great question and I would say that it was a lack of momentum.
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: When we lost momentum, especially in an investigation when you lose momentum, sometimes that becomes your Achilles heel.
22:31
[SPEAKER_02]: When you lose it, when you lose momentum, and then what is it, what is that saying?
22:36
[SPEAKER_02]: Cases go from red to black by way of green, I believe, is the phrase.
22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true, and when we had momentum when we were getting the confessions in both Piggy's case and in two parks case, there was momentum, and then it was interrupted because of bureaucracy.
22:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And when the momentum was lost, it's stalled everything until the momentum picked up again in 2017.
23:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, there was a period of many years there where I had kind of given up hope that we'd ever get momentum again.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You thought this would just go on to salt forever and it would be one of those kind of mysteries that was left to lure and things like that.
23:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, because we get the confession in 2008, shortly there in December of 2008, and in the very beginning of 2009 Las Vegas comes out and they get a repeated confession.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got two confessions, and the both under the premise of this.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: proper agreement.
23:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But there was still work to be done at that point in time.
23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: There was still another co-conspirator who was alive and well and should have been pursued aggressively.
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And that wasn't done.
23:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that whole piece, getting the driver of that getaway vehicle, the driver of that Cadillac, had the four suspects in at that night, getting him, you could have just used him
24:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Please work 101, turning your, you know, your subjects against each other, and it never happened, and I think that that's where Las Vegas at that point in time had really dropped the ball and lost the momentum.
24:24
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think there was some motive behind that bureaucracy or is it
24:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's detective works like probably any other profession you get different levels of confidence, different levels of interest, different levels of motivation and I just don't think that the investigator at that time in 2000 and in nine.
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: had the foresight or the wear with all to see that there was still good work to be done.
25:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's this logistical geographical hurdle of him being in Las Vegas and trying to build a case against somebody in Compton, California, which is whether or the other coping spirit or lived.
25:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that there was just a lack of creative thinking on his part, which would have ultimately led to an arrest of Terrence Brown and potentially a confession from Terrence Brown.
25:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll go back to that night.
25:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was September 7th, 1996.
25:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I was watching the Tyson fight.
25:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Same as everybody else.
25:33
[SPEAKER_01]: He fought Bruce Seldon.
25:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It appeared.
25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Tupac was with Tyson right now to the fight.
25:40
[SPEAKER_01]: They were hanging out.
25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: They said, hey, there was a guy involved in some other trips.
25:45
[SPEAKER_01]: altercation the lobby.
25:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It was Orlando Anderson.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: They move out to the lobby.
25:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all on film in the lobby of them beating him down.
25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It looked like roughly, I don't know, called 10 to 15 dudes, uh, too pop obviously included in that and Shug Nights, who were beating down uh Orlando Anderson.
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And uh, he is with Kefti.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: They getting the card together.
26:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh Orlando Anderson was the guy who actually pulled the trigger, correct?
26:13
[SPEAKER_00]: According to KVD, he says that during his original confession, he says that he handed the gun to the back.
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was another subject in the back, gun named Andre Smith, who was in the best position to shoot.
26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: He was right behind the driver.
26:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Twopox and Shuk's car was on the driver's side of the vehicle.
26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He would have been in the best position.
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: But he evidently was reluctant and so Orlando Anderson, who was behind the passenger front seat.
26:41
[SPEAKER_00]: He's in the passenger's side of the back seat.
26:43
[SPEAKER_00]: He takes the gun.
26:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Leans across the Andre Smith.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: He puts his arm out the window and starts firing.
26:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was really his job to do that because he was the one who had been stopped down.
26:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So in the world of gangs,
26:58
[SPEAKER_00]: general to to to retaliate for something that has been done upon you.
27:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what we believe.
27:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I've always believed that Orlando Anderson was the shooter.
27:10
[SPEAKER_00]: He had the motive.
27:11
[SPEAKER_00]: He was already known as a as a as a trigger man.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: He was already wanted on it once at least one other murder.
27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So Orlando Anderson was always
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: across the board suspect number one.
27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But we didn't know for sure who all the other the other people in that car were until keep you decompressed.
27:31
[SPEAKER_02]: You talked about momentum.
27:34
[SPEAKER_02]: If that knucklehead had never started doing interviews and writing books would we even be having this conversation right now.
27:39
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question.
27:42
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't think so.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing led to another.
27:45
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing had to happen for the next.
27:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just dyke steps.
27:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you miss one of those steps, the whole story stops right there.
27:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't think that if I had no left-it-a-partment wrote a book,
27:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The book then became a documentary, the documentary led to a whole bunch of public exposure.
28:05
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what compelled KVD to feel like he could go out and start talking about the case.
28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Heirs after his confession.
28:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And then once he started talking about it, Las Vegas opened of their ears and said, hey, can we use these public confessions against him in a criminal prosecution?
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: The answer was yes.
28:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And so one thing just had to happen for the next to take place.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, the book you're referring to is called murder rap.
28:31
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're out there and you want to check it out, the untold story of Biggie Smalls and two poxicore murder investigations by the detective who solved both cases.
28:42
[SPEAKER_01]: As you mentioned, there was two other guys in the vehicle.
28:45
[SPEAKER_01]: To my understanding, Orlando Anderson got killed.
28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: by a rival gang two years later after he shot two poxikore.
28:55
[SPEAKER_01]: KVD is about to get sentenced here in the next two to three weeks.
29:00
[SPEAKER_01]: He was found guilty just last week.
29:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Who are the other two guys and are they still alive?
29:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other, there was four guys in the car, Keith E. who you mentioned, Orlando Anderson, he died in 2002, he was collecting a drug debt from some rival gang members, and he got into a gunfighting Orlando Anderson, a shot and killed.
29:21
[SPEAKER_00]: DeAndre Smith, who was the other guy in the backseat with Orlando Anderson, he was a big obese guy.
29:26
[SPEAKER_00]: He had health problems, he died.
29:30
[SPEAKER_00]: back in the early 2000s from health related issues, and then the driver that I'd mentioned Terrence Brown, he was killed in a botched robbery at a drug dispensary and comped, and I think it was 2015.
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So everybody else in the car is dead, which leaves the only other assailant
29:57
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[SPEAKER_01]: And with with KVD personally, one of the biggest confessions that he made in your tape was that he was offered a million dollars by Sean Diddy Combs to have to park murdered.
37:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And according to the Netflix documentary, the first half a million was allegedly since they never got the other half a million.
37:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you believe in that story?
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you believe that Sean
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I do believe in that story, but my feelings about cones is involvement of.
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of evolved.
37:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Back when the story was first told to us by KVD when he mentions that he met with columns and columns said he wanted to take care of those guys and an offer of money was put up.
38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I was then under the impression or at least leaning towards the idea that columns was just in desperation speaking kind of carelessly inferior for all the conflict that was going on
38:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So I thought that maybe he was just speaking out of fear and desperation that it wasn't really an intentional But then years later when the true character of Shankoom starts to be revealed It changed my perception and hindsight because now I'm thinking well, maybe he is that Coldblooded or maybe he is that You know that his character is such that he could have solicited this murder so my impression is changed
38:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It's differently than it was 10, 15 years ago.
38:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
38:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Got there?
38:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.
38:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm a Hollywood guy, and I was doing movies and stuff like that.
39:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There was another alleged murder that he was involved in at a recording studio off of Highland, I believe, forgive me, it's been about 15, 16 years since I was there.
39:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I heard the story from this producer who had worked there, it was a bunch
39:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It didn't seem like he was that type of guy, but he, according to this producer that I worked with, was always trying to portray himself as that type of guy.
39:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you have one or two instances that can kind of live in the streets,
39:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can kind of be that kind of guy behind the scenes and intimidate anyone into doing anything at any time.
39:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, obviously, everything has been coming out.
39:46
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been blamed for his ex-wife's death and all kinds of stuff.
39:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what to believe at this point, but I just wondered if internally in the police station, hey guys, we kind of think that he was involved in this.
40:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Was that ever a discussion?
40:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, most certainly, if there was a way to track a payment or to corroborate and verify that there was a payment, then that goes a long way and suggesting that it was a murder for higher, you know, if if in hindsight, he
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: is willing to pay somebody for something that took place after having a conversation in which he mentions that he wants those guys taking care of or taking out and then there's the forwarding of some money that's all you need to show that he was a co-conspirator in the murder.
40:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But we don't have a verification of that transaction, because that would go along the way in establishing that it was an intentional act.
40:47
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you have to have all, you have to have three elements, right?
40:50
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to have two or more people, you have to have an agreement and an intent, and then you have to have what's called an overt act.
40:57
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
40:58
[SPEAKER_02]: The challenge conspiracy and over it, act would be like, look, we're going to go rob a bank.
41:02
[SPEAKER_02]: We need a van to do it.
41:03
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you, we have that conversation and you go to the rental car place and rent a van.
41:07
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, we've committed conspiracy to commit robbery or whatever or, yeah, I have a weird question.
41:18
[SPEAKER_02]: We've played kind of, I mean, jokingly, we've played this clip of Tupac from high school a couple of times over the years and he's just like a soft theater kid, right, and real life.
41:29
[SPEAKER_02]: He wasn't a gangster or any of this bullshit and this isn't to excuse murder or anything, but I've always felt like he bore a lot of the responsibility himself for getting involved in all that bullshit in the first place and then especially for the stuff that happened at MGM that night.
41:51
[SPEAKER_02]: was he a pretend gangster like I mean how much I guess the question is how much responsibility do you think he has for putting himself in this dumbass situation like that I mean he he is a soft kid that kind of got into a situation when some hardened gangsters had thought it was all a game I guess.
42:10
[SPEAKER_01]: because we've heard stories that he was gay and that's when he was in prison in New York that he left a love letter to a different guy inside the jail when he was leaving when he got bailed out by Schugnites for a million dollars.
42:24
[SPEAKER_01]: That did, did any of that come up?
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: No, we never saw anything to suggest that he was soft in that way, but I do hear what you're saying about, you know, he didn't, he wasn't raised in the streets in the, in the same manner in which, you know, these gang members that he was associating with was, I think what, two-pock, and this is just a personal impression or personal opinion.
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: was always looking for, you know, a kind of a place to belong.
42:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And after things kind of, you felt betrayed in New York, and, you know, it gets beat up at the Quad Studios.
43:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He thinks he's set up New York as time turned their back on him.
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: He's in prison.
43:06
[SPEAKER_00]: He's wondering who's betrayed him.
43:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he comes to L.A. and he starts associating with people that are really taking him in.
43:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And really making a feel like part of, you know, for lack of a better term of family.
43:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that when he is
43:22
[SPEAKER_00]: putting himself in those positions like he did at the MGM tonight.
43:25
[SPEAKER_00]: He's trying to also prove to them like I've got your backs too.
43:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you guys have my backs.
43:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm in a place I belong, I feel protected.
43:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm affiliated with people who I can trust.
43:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me show you that I have loyalty to you also.
43:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think happened.
43:42
[SPEAKER_00]: He made a horrible decision and the people around him weren't really protecting him from himself.
43:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And when he made a decision to go on sucker punch or land of Anderson, he had no idea he was signing his own death warrant.
43:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was just an act of immaturity to the park as we all know.
44:01
[SPEAKER_00]: He had, you know, some, maybe some anger management issues.
44:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was young and just made a really bad decision that cost him his life ultimately.
44:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that he was trafiliating with people that he felt really were taking the plates of those that he felt had betrayed him in New York.
44:20
[SPEAKER_00]: He was out there just.
44:23
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so based on, I agree with what you said before, just, uh, experience with gang activity, um, or Landos, the guy that got hit, he's probably the guy that leaves fire the first shot, whatever, in any circumstance, whatever happened to be, I don't think that was the case here necessarily, but you believe, well, I guess it's a two-part question, do you believe Anderson's actually the guy that pulled a trigger and then two, uh, what evidence at what
44:53
[SPEAKER_00]: for Orlando being the triggerman.
44:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
44:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Primarily, because if you understood the relationship between Keith E. D. in Orlando Anderson, he was the most loved, you know, they referred to him as the prince of the neighborhood.
45:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Keith E. D. Absolutely loved his nephew.
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And when he decided that he was going to confess, he doesn't know what we know.
45:18
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't know if we've already verified that Orlando Anderson was a shooter or any of that.
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: My nephew, my beloved nephew, I would never throw him under the bus if this weren't true.
45:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And he could have just as easily said, hey, I handed the gun to the back seat and gave it to Drake.
45:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Because at this point in time, DeAndree Smith is already dead, too.
45:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So he could have put the gun into another dead man's hands, but for him to actually put it into his nephew's hands, who he truly loved, that goes a long way and convincing me that it was actually his nephew.
45:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And then also understanding the mors and the kind of interest his intricacies of a gang life.
46:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Orlando Anderson's job.
46:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's his responsibility to take that gun and do that job
46:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And if he doesn't do that, then he's kind of like ranked out, you know, he's, you know, somebody else had to do your job for you.
46:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
46:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And so all of this together for me is convinced that it was Orlando Anderson and kind of a follow-up to that.
46:31
[SPEAKER_02]: There's been thousands of hours now of documentaries and millions of words spoken about what happened every single individual involved including Biggie and all this other shit.
46:48
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the biggest thing you think the public believes about this that's just bullshit, complete bullshit?
46:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Because everybody wants everything to be some grand conspiracy, but it turns out from what I can tell, Tupac did some dumb and got clip for it, frankly.
47:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's the simplicity of it.
47:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really these two cases were relatively simple.
47:09
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no big grand hidden conspiracy with a bunch of dark forces behind it.
47:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just simple gang activity, and two-pop made a really bad decision.
47:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, and this is on the heels of a conflict that's been going on for years.
47:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So all this did was kind of strike the match of a fire that was already burning.
47:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Unfortunately, led to another, but these were just gangsters, just gang murders, really, drive by shootings.
47:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
47:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But because of some of the conspiracy theories out there, and keeping in mind that the fans of both Big E and two
48:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I'm looking for a community urban legend.
48:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, community.
48:09
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've been simple.
48:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that urban community by and large, already has somewhat of a preconceived idea of police work and law enforcement pops.
48:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, because of that, the conspiracy theories play into their preconceived notions.
48:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more comfortable to believe that, yeah, those fucking cops did it.
48:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the cops.
48:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though there's no evidence to support that, it supports their bias.
48:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And we make our decisions oftentimes by our, you know, confirming our biases.
48:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's what I was personally amped about seeing with this whole trial take place over the last few weeks.
48:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that I feel like you were finally vindicated of like, hey, to this white guy was trying to set everybody up.
48:55
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't true.
48:56
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a bigger conspiracy here.
48:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know the dark forces behind it and everything else, which is what I said at the top of the show.
49:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You said the same consistent story.
49:07
[SPEAKER_01]: for 20 years at this point here.
49:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You've never changed.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Over time, your book didn't change, I've read your book.
49:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing has ever changed in this case.
49:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But yet now, nobody's coming back to you, saying thank you, Greg, for your work.
49:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for staying on this case.
49:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being honest about it.
49:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody's ever reached out and said thank you for getting us the answer that we've wanted for the last 20 to 30 years.
49:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe not in a big grandiose public way, but I do get, I do get a lot of appreciation and gratitude behind the scenes that Shakur family has been very supportive and thankful in a met with several of them.
49:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I was pretty good friends, I would say, I would say yeah, friends with Butletta Wallace before she passed Biggie's Mom.
49:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And so there were the people that matter have been supportive and appreciative, but that's okay.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't need a big, you know, it was a joint effort.
50:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like, I can't be the one taking responsibility for anything.
50:12
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's...
50:14
[SPEAKER_00]: our task force worked collectively with a group of people and then other investigators came along later and contributed to it and then we fell into this wonderful confession and we have a confession in Big East case too and that case ought to be resolved.
50:30
[SPEAKER_02]: You said that, I've got a couple of questions on that actually, um,
50:35
[SPEAKER_02]: One is there.
50:38
[SPEAKER_02]: I think this will be a quick answer.
50:40
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, is there any evidence connecting Biggie to two parks killing in the second one is why is Biggie's murder still technically unsolved when it appears is though they have enough to make a case now.
50:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're definitely connected.
50:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Biggie was killed.
50:58
[SPEAKER_00]: in the direct retaliation for what happened to Tupac and Vegas.
51:02
[SPEAKER_00]: When Tupac was killed, Tupac was killed, Tupac took it upon himself to retaliate against bad boy records.
51:11
[SPEAKER_00]: His artist has been killed, Tupac short his main money maker, and so how he's going to do the same thing to bad boy and he targets Biggie.
51:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we have a confessing co-conspirator in that case, who was the intermediary between sugar and the shooter.
51:27
[SPEAKER_00]: and she confessed under a compelled situation just like KVD did with his proper and she said, listen, show gas, me to do it.
51:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I was the go between.
51:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I delivered the money.
51:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I helped set the whole thing up.
51:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, Biggy then gets killed.
51:42
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a smaller conspiracy because as far as we know, it only consisted of three people, showed the shooter and shows female accomplice.
51:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the shooter's dead, just like Orlando Anderson got killed in 2002, and an unrelated gang thing.
52:04
[SPEAKER_00]: The shooter of Biggie Smalls was also killed in an unrelated gang action in 2000, and not sure that what year, but early 2000s.
52:13
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, who's this pertinent?
52:15
[SPEAKER_00]: His name was Bordel Faust.
52:17
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a mob, Pyroogang member.
52:19
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very close to Soshita Shuggs, just like Orlando Anderson.
52:22
[SPEAKER_00]: He was wanted on other murders.
52:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And so he was the guy that you would go to if you needed that type of action taken care of.
52:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was a close to Soshita Shuggs.
52:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the girl confesses that Wardell Fowse, which they call him Poochi, was asked to do the hit, he agreed to do it for a certain amount of money.
52:46
[SPEAKER_00]: She facilitated that, made got him the money, and then became kids killed.
52:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's, prosecuting a show now just based on this female accomplices
53:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Confession is very difficult because she's a the mother of one of his children Be she's got her own history of perjury and credibility issues And so it'd be very hard to put her on the stand because she would just get destroyed during cross examination
53:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it makes it much more difficult.
53:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But the case can still be closed and resolved officially within the LAPD.
53:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You can close a case and say that we've got enough evidence to prove what happened, but we can't prosecute the case based on this set of circumstances.
53:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, Sugar's still alive and he's currently in prison right now, obviously for killing a guy on the set of that NWA commercial shoot that they have played that on the show a few months back where he drove over him and then put it in reverse just to make sure, which is important, obviously.
54:00
[SPEAKER_01]: you've got to make sure that that guy is dead and put it in reverse.
54:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you not go after, showed now, and extend his time or is his time in prison now, cemented as such that you're like, it's not really worth it for taxpayers to go after this.
54:20
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think that the responsible thing to do would be to prosecute him for his role in Biggie's murder if a DA felt that they could successfully do that.
54:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that they have the confidence just based on this female accomplices.
54:36
[SPEAKER_00]: confession that they would secure a conviction.
54:41
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's no physics that she might corroborate even them because that's different.
54:44
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one thing to have in eyeball witness is another thing to corroborate something that's physical evidence because of jury and obviously we'll look at that quite a bit differently.
54:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they would raise reasonable doubt in that case.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: If you put her on a stand, because you can discredit her just face, so she had a whole history of like any fake driver's licenses.
55:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you go get a driver's license, each sign under penalty of perjury that you've never applied for a license in another name.
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: She had like a half a dozen of these.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: All you have to do is introduce that in court and say, look, don't you lie under penalty of perjury all the time?
55:21
[SPEAKER_00]: and it would really be hard to build a case against should just based on her testimony.
55:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't have any other corroborating evidence because the shooter's dead and the conspiracy only consisted of those three people.
55:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's almost an unprofitable case.
55:37
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact,
55:38
[SPEAKER_00]: the estate for a vote on the estate for Christopher Wallace, the attorney that was representing that estate, he said it best.
55:46
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, this is not an unsolved case.
55:48
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just simply an unprosycuted case.
55:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's the way it'll always remain.
55:54
[SPEAKER_00]: No one's going to get prosecuted for Biggie Smarter, but it can be closed.
55:58
[SPEAKER_00]: and it ought to be closed to based on the information that we have so that history doesn't show it as an unsolved murder.
56:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like two boxes now no longer this, you know, mysterious unsolved murder.
56:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's closed for all time.
56:15
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
56:15
[SPEAKER_02]: One of your colleagues, Russell Poole,
56:19
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... became convinced that corrupt LAPD officers were involved in the on the bed on biggie uh... where do you think he was right and where do you think he was off the rails on that cause obviously it seems based on what you said you thought it was a three person could spierce
56:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so pool was right and going down that avenue of inquiry that he ought to have looked into those claims.
56:44
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem was, is that he convinced himself that they were true when so much information was contrary to that.
56:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that he lost himself in this.
56:56
[SPEAKER_00]: this preconceived idea that these cops were involved, but all the actual evidence that was surfacing, all the information that was surfacing was suggesting otherwise.
57:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that he had his own personal issues against the LAPD at the time.
57:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're probably aware of
57:19
[SPEAKER_00]: He in hasty left the department with 19 years on the job just one year away from securing a lifelong pension.
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: That kind of tells you how he felt about his career at that point and he went down a rabbit hole and lost his objectivity.
57:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And as an investigator when you do that, you know, there's dark days ahead and that's what followed him off the job.
57:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Was trying to prove something that was unprovable and in fact trying to prove something that was false.
57:48
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a problem.
57:49
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've dealt with this in to some degree in the intelligence community before, but even just working your own case, it can be a problem.
57:59
[SPEAKER_02]: Making bad assumptions and letting them live throughout the process, but you inherited a very large case file.
58:07
[SPEAKER_02]: And
58:08
[SPEAKER_02]: notes and years worth of other detectives.
58:11
[SPEAKER_02]: The series, how do you keep from inheriting their assumptions along with the evidence?
58:15
[SPEAKER_02]: This is something that anybody that works in that this field or an intelligence should know how to do, and it's not easy.
58:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not easy because you do have to protect yourself from your own biases, your own subjective reasoning.
58:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that just maintaining that objectivity, not caring what the truth is, just caring that you get the truth.
58:37
[SPEAKER_00]: But not trying to prove something because it's meaningful to you as an investigator.
58:41
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, you have to really just accept the fact that the evidence is going to tell the story, not me.
58:53
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what about, this is something I've always wondered because it's different when I'm trying to get to pass my intelligence up to chain and get somebody to give me the go ahead to go hit something, right?
59:08
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what there's whole different set of laws over there.
59:12
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you bring in a jury of somebody's peers.
59:15
[SPEAKER_02]: you have to manage the difference between your brain and all the context and training and information you have and the way that you see circumstantial evidence like you were talking about understanding how gangs operate I know Orlando's the guy that took that shot because he would be drummed out of the gang if you didn't right there's no world in which that's not the case however that circumstance right and how do you how do you communicate that to basically the general public which is what the jury's made out of.
59:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, keep in mind that as that circumstance, but it's not just that because now you've got an eyewitness saying that it works that way and it'll Anderson.
59:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And so then your circumsensual evidence is corroborated by actual evidence, testimonial evidence.
1:00:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that trying to balance all those things understanding the difference between circumstantial evidence that's uncorroborated and certain, which is really just circumstantial information.
1:00:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even evidence versus circumstantial evidence because it's corroborated by way of some type of physical or testimonial evidence.
1:00:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think there's just all these kind of blue nuances of it all.
1:00:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted to go back to something else you said that
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's important earlier on, you say, getting rid of the noise in your investigation and separating the chat from the lead, and that's so important, I think, oftentimes as investigators in the general public were so consumed with getting the guilty party that we're not taking the amount of time and energy that we should devote towards exonerating falsely accused people.
1:00:51
[SPEAKER_00]: And so within these conspiracy theories, there are so many people that are being, you know, falsely accused of being involved in these nefarious acts, and we really owe them of responsibility as investigators to make sure that they're not dragged into something, unless there's actual evidence to support those claims, and there's so many people have been dragged into these conspiracy theories.
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, over the years, and I think it's the fascination with how great these people were as artists and how big they were around the world that everybody wanted to point to finger and try to be right about it and then write the story or the book or whatever it is and then you were the one who actually stayed on course and and you had the right answers and you took your time with it.
1:01:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that kind of begs the question, though, is there a.
1:01:41
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there a point at somewhere in your career and I know there must have been where you were convinced a guy was guilty and you discovered that he wasn't?
1:01:50
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, the second part of that question is did it change the way you went about investigating after that?
1:01:55
[SPEAKER_02]: Or the way you went about sorting the facts in your head or whatever?
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
1:02:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I learned early on during my investigative career.
1:02:05
[SPEAKER_00]: As soon as I got into a gain investigations, I was much younger, didn't have the kind of experience that I needed to really sit back and evaluate.
1:02:17
[SPEAKER_00]: information.
1:02:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I was much more maybe emotionally driven and passionately driven, but I did learn like you really have to be careful about drawing assumptions based on just circumstance.
1:02:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Because oftentimes you get it wrong and they absolutely have gotten it wrong.
1:02:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Learn to the hard way that you go in your tail between your legs and apologize for the mistakes that you make.
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there a specific worst investigative mistake you made that followed you for a while that you that you really that like maybe changed the way that you thought about that?
1:03:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I do so many assumptions that, you know, throughout my career that, you know, you learn by trial and error.
1:03:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't think of one specific one.
1:03:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, is there a case that still haunts you?
1:03:18
[SPEAKER_01]: That you think about where you're like, man, I think it might have been this other person or I did this wrong, and I wish I could go back in time.
1:03:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And not for that reason, but there is a case that haunts me because we were negligent processing a crime scene and a guy had been killed.
1:03:36
[SPEAKER_00]: and his own home after he picked up another guy at a bar that night and I got came into the home and butchered him and when we got the crime scene we found this little codac member of the old yellow disposable.
1:03:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a camera.
1:03:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
1:03:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You drop out of the one hour photo booth.
1:03:59
[SPEAKER_00]: So we found one of those on the copy table right next to where the victim was and of course we took it out and had a process and when we had a process
1:04:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We got back in the last couple of photographs in that film where of our suspect laying on our subjects bed on the dead guys bed and he was naked and there was clear there was some close ups of some items and you could clearly see that there was like pubic hair on a white blanket on this bed.
1:04:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And because our crime scene was downstairs and everything looked like it took place downstairs, we never even considered the master bedroom upstairs as part of the crime scene.
1:04:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we got these photographs developed and we see that there was activity up on this bed, and there was probably physical evidence.
1:04:56
[SPEAKER_00]: that could have tied this to a suspect.
1:05:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just negligent.
1:05:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I looked back and I said, if we did, oh, and so we go back now a week later after we get the film developed and the family members of our deceased have gone through the house.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_00]: They've taken all the sheets and taken to the dry cleaner.
1:05:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And so all that evidence is now gone.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just wish like, holy smokes, if we had to just been a little more diligent processing that crime scene and not assuming that everything took place
1:05:26
[SPEAKER_00]: just in immediate vicinity of where the corpse was.
1:05:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I want to apologize for that, Greg.
1:05:32
[SPEAKER_01]: That was my own dick picks and look.
1:05:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You weren't supposed to see those.
1:05:37
[SPEAKER_01]: That was kind of first friends and family and whatnot.
1:05:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So I apologize.
1:05:42
[SPEAKER_01]: You had to go through those.
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of kidding, obviously.
1:05:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But the other interesting thing that was an impressive, yes or no, you can say that.
1:05:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, so that's you man, good on you, my man.
1:05:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Plus, dude, thank you very much.
1:05:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate that.
1:05:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Could be want to give me a round of applause, my penis, you can.
1:05:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
1:06:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
1:06:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You've seen around the world, whatever.
1:06:04
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but I also want to go back to when you started in 88, because LAPD at that time, and I, you know, I lived there for 15, 16 years, Dan, I lived down California as well.
1:06:15
[SPEAKER_01]: During that time period, man, nobody trusted cops.
1:06:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It was fucked up police.
1:06:20
[SPEAKER_01]: especially with the rap community and everything else.
1:06:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And you guys had lost so many cases at that point.
1:06:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're looking at, let's start with the obvious one here in Rodney King.
1:06:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of set the city on fire.
1:06:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that led into Snoop Dogg who got off of the murder trial.
1:06:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that was,
1:06:43
[SPEAKER_01]: real or not real, if you actually committed that murder or not.
1:06:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it came into the O.J.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Simpson case.
1:06:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it came into the Menendez brothers.
1:06:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Eventually they end up getting the Menendez brothers after that.
1:06:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But what a wild time in the L.A. PD to start during that time period.
1:07:02
[SPEAKER_01]: One of my next short neighbors, when our first moves to Los Angeles, we were up in kind of near the Hollywood Hills area there.
1:07:12
[SPEAKER_01]: and you had to work like competent and all that other shits.
1:07:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Was that where you were working and were you a part of any of these cases as they were going on before you got to the others?
1:07:22
[SPEAKER_00]: No, so I, as I got out of the academy back then, the LAP didn't allow straight lateral.
1:07:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had to go through a second academy to get hired on with the LAPD.
1:07:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So after graduating from the academy,
1:07:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I ended up in a division called Newton Division.
1:07:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one of the four south-central divisions, and it's some of the most active gang areas in the city, so it's really quick training grounds.
1:07:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And so got in and started to learn about how to investigate gangs, and very fun division to work, very active, and all the people around you super supportive team work type of environment.
1:08:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was actually a lot of fun,
1:08:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Please work like anything else you've all like the way that we used to enforce the law back in the mid-80s and in late-80s and early-90s It had to change and it did because of things like Rodney King because those type of beatdowns were not completely uncommon
1:08:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And that one just happened to get captured on film.
1:08:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And that led to having to reevaluate because the perception of it is so bad that the police department needed to absolutely reevaluate the way we do things.
1:08:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was not uncommon when a gang member would run from you that at the end of that foot chase, there was a mutual understanding what was gonna happen.
1:08:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And it used to really help Tether or Tide gain activity because we were playing a very aggressive gain of counterattack.
1:09:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just the way it was back in the 80s and 90s.
1:09:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And so gang suppression was fighting fire with fire.
1:09:15
[SPEAKER_00]: and it was effective, but it also was really pushing the lines of what was acceptable and legal.
1:09:20
[SPEAKER_02]: It also didn't track when it came to prosecution rates, right?
1:09:24
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, clearance rates during the peak murder periods, game murder periods in the 90s,
1:09:29
[SPEAKER_02]: were upwards of 70 to 80 percent because I mean that's clearance as in a rest were made in 70 to 80 percent of cases.
1:09:37
[SPEAKER_02]: 40 to 50 percent depending on the year you look at LAPD's or LA County District Attorney's Office dropped cases because they couldn't be prosecuted for one reason or another.
1:09:48
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you've talked about
1:09:50
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, one of the big reasons, I mean, certainly there were credibility issues after Rodney King uh, during and after Ram part and some of the other things like that, just a general dislike a police and whatnot.
1:10:00
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's also the bulk of those gang murders, everybody in the neighborhood knows exactly who did it.
1:10:10
[SPEAKER_02]: You may indeed have an eyeball witness, but there's like very small chance that anybody's going to say anything.
1:10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, even though they were some of the most simple crimes in the sense and how they are carried out, the mechanisms of the crime are so simple, but prosecuting them, I think I've always said that 60-plus percent of game crimes go unprosicated, especially violent game crimes, because you just don't get the cooperation of the witnesses that you need.
1:10:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that made, that made investigating them very difficult.
1:10:44
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was also kind of this idea, it's like, well, if you're going to participate in gang activity, and this is the life that you want to live, then you accept that and do that, then you know, just don't hurt innocent people, you know, make sure that's if you're going to do that, because if you hurt the innocent people, then we're going to, I think we work a lot harder.
1:11:07
[SPEAKER_00]: then maybe if it's just a mutual gang activity or a gang action where people are willingly involved in violent conflict and they suffer consequences of that versus somebody walking down the street and getting caught across fire with.
1:11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Was everybody on your side within an apartment during these cases?
1:11:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you talking about in the Biggie and two
1:11:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely, we had just tremendous support all the way from the Chief's office.
1:11:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, they had a motivation to try to get to the bottom of this thing because of the civil lawsuit that was being waged against the city.
1:11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So they were of utmost interest in trying to resolve this and figure out if any of these claims were true about the department's involvement.
1:11:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So they were very, very, very, very supportive.
1:11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We had
1:11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: every resource that we needed, so we, you know, and that's why, again, we kind of collaborated with the feds because they had the money, they had the deep pockets, and we didn't want to self-exonerate.
1:12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: We didn't want to go out and then discover that we weren't involved, and then be the ones to go, hey, man, we weren't involved in self-exonerate.
1:12:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We wanted to have the credentials of other agencies with credibility, with credibility.
1:12:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Also saying that we were among for the right, we were part of the investigation, and yes, these are our conclusions.
1:12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had the U.S. Attorney's Office, the FBI, the DEA, the ATF, and all these different agencies working amongst us in collaboration with us, so that if it was found out that we weren't involved, it wasn't just us saying that.
1:12:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because it was a couple of guys and some of these other documentaries, these fringe documentaries, who said, you know, Greg wanted to be famous, and that's why, you know, he keeps talking about it in blah, blah, blah.
1:12:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't look at it like that.
1:12:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I look at it like, these were two of the most,
1:12:56
[SPEAKER_01]: biggest musicians on the planet at that time and probably still are to be honest with you.
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we just don't have rappers like this today and musicians like this today and their music still lives on.
1:13:08
[SPEAKER_01]: We hear it every single day on the radio or kids, my kids are still playing it and everything else.
1:13:18
[SPEAKER_01]: What's been the response of that is far as like,
1:13:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Well I do it because people call me an asking to and I feel that there's a responsibility to provide information that helps clarify things in the public forum.
1:13:36
[SPEAKER_00]: When I decided to go public with this story back in 2010 or the book was published in 2011 but I really felt the main reason the primary motivation was that the public didn't have access to our investigative findings.
1:13:54
[SPEAKER_00]: and like you're saying these are two icons.
1:13:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe even in so far, you know, with two parts of core, there's a global icon that's had so much
1:14:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it just had so much to offer, and the public didn't know what happened.
1:14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And we did, and I felt there's a responsibility to at least provide that information so that the public can assess for themselves.
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: it took place.
1:14:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's really about just that.
1:14:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was never, I self-published the book.
1:14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like I had this major publishing deal and I was going to walk away from this.
1:14:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it was, it was never that.
1:14:38
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I walked away from what would have been a,
1:14:41
[SPEAKER_00]: even more lucrative path if I'd stayed on the police department because I would have gotten into what we call a drop program and you double-tip you get a pension while you're still working so you're going to source it so I walked away from
1:14:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But in hindsight, things work out really good.
1:15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to tell the story.
1:15:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to tell the story and educate the public.
1:15:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't have to continue to work any longer.
1:15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Though the FX show, all that other stuff was great.
1:15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I mean, I guess why not stay in it.
1:15:17
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the decision there to get out of it?
1:15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just that.
1:15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I felt that I couldn't stay on the job until the story would have been a conflict of interest.
1:15:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I would have probably gotten fired if I had published this information while still on the department.
1:15:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So I had to walk away and become a civilian and then tell the story that was the only way that the story was going to get told from any practical standpoint.
1:15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that was it.
1:15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I just felt like my career at that point in time.
1:15:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd run the gamut.
1:15:44
[SPEAKER_00]: I'd done just about anything I wanted to do on the department, worked all these assignments that I wanted to work in.
1:15:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It hit just run in its course.
1:15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that it was just a kind of a natural transition into the next chapter of life.
1:15:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like I said, I remember reading this book when it came out in 2011.
1:16:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna say it was the end of 2011 that I read it.
1:16:06
[SPEAKER_01]: If memory serves me correct, you did not get it wrong.
1:16:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was talking about at the top of the episode, you can go back and read this book to this day.
1:16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's pretty much word for word.
1:16:16
[SPEAKER_01]: What the actual verdict of this case was, that happened a week and a half ago.
1:16:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.
1:16:24
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not one thing that's changed.
1:16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And either of the cases, the evidence in the case is still stands, nothing's changed, nothing's challenged without evidence.
1:16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And as we see now in twopox case, that evidence has come to fruition and resulted in a conviction.
1:16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, nothing's
1:16:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing's changed in all these years.
1:16:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, really, I wasn't.
1:16:46
[SPEAKER_02]: There's been, it's been 30 years of conspiracies and speculation.
1:16:51
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now there's a conviction and a sentence in coming soon.
1:16:56
[SPEAKER_02]: What, this is, what question about twopox murder?
1:17:00
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think is now definitively answered?
1:17:02
[SPEAKER_02]: And what question still is not answered?
1:17:05
[SPEAKER_02]: If you, if you think there's still something to be determined.
1:17:09
[SPEAKER_00]: The true role, deities through role and the soul thing.
1:17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Deities through, sorry about that background noise.
1:17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:17:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Deities through role and this entire thing, I think is still a question on everybody's mind.
1:17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: But the primary culprits,
1:17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: have all been held accountable in their own way.
1:17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, I for an eye or land of Anderson gets killed and shot a violent way, just like he had enacted on two parks of core.
1:17:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that we've definitively said, who is in the car?
1:17:46
[SPEAKER_00]: why the shooting took place, what led up to it, and what the aftermath was, that's all definitive.
1:17:54
[SPEAKER_00]: The only lingering question now is, is there a responsibility yet to be held by Shawn Culls?
1:18:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's your answer?
1:18:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that he was involved?
1:18:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you think he could potentially be charged one day?
1:18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, my perspective on that has changed back at the time when we got the confession, Sean's combs the imagery, my idea, my impression of combs was different.
1:18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think about him in such a dastered leader in a various way, but then as the exposure of his character is coming out over the years, it's changed that
1:18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: interpretation of the conversation that he had with KVD, and now I believe he was capable of actually ordering it, and if we were ever able to validate that there was a transaction of money, then that would solidify the idea that he intentionally was asking for their murders.
1:18:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
1:18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we'll see what happens.
1:18:58
[SPEAKER_01]: He's gone roughly another year and a half in prison.
1:19:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he's scheduled to get out in February of 2028 Not sure if they're going to try to tie this in before them.
1:19:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I know Keith D. immediately said after the Trials over that he was going to appeal Any ask for certain records and and all that other stuff which
1:19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: is normal.
1:19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that happens pretty much in every case that's possible here, but we'll keep an eye out for that.
1:19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: In the meantime, we appreciate you coming on today, Greg.
1:19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Now's the point in the show.
1:19:31
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll get to the drinking bro of the week, which is someone who has inspired you or helps you become the person you are today, who would you like to give the drink and bro the week to?
1:19:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be my mentor, a man named Wyatt Hart, who recently passed away for all intent and purposes.
1:19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a dad to me.
1:19:50
[SPEAKER_00]: He got me into law enforcement.
1:19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: He passed away this earlier in this year.
1:19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I attribute any success I've had in life to the support that he gave me back as a young man and guiding me into a,
1:20:09
[SPEAKER_00]: a profession guiding me into a law enforcement.
1:20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you'll always be the one man in my life that I owe the most to.
1:20:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Was he named after whiter?
1:20:20
[SPEAKER_00]: He should have been.
1:20:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a cowboy.
1:20:22
[SPEAKER_00]: He was a cowboy cop.
1:20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever I hear the name Wyatt, and then there's a police officer, I'm always like, man, I guarantee it was Wyatt or somebody was watching to him, so, you know, he was the man.
1:20:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
1:20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: We appreciate it.
1:20:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, tell everybody where they can buy the book.
1:20:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it's been 15 years, but I'm sure sales are still crazy at this point.
1:20:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this case is still going on, and we'll see what happens.
1:20:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny that the sales they have in flow, and when some kind of public attention is on the case, then people buy the book, but yeah, it's been there for 15 years.
1:21:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I probably should have revised it once or twice, but I'm too lazy to do that.
1:21:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's available on Amazon, but there's also, I would actually encourage people just to watch the documentary murder app.
1:21:17
[SPEAKER_00]: It's easier, you know, you hit a lot of visual, you get a lot of hearing some of the tapes and some of the concession excerpts.
1:21:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of writing and reading the book, I would just actually watch the documentary.
1:21:28
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
1:21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.
1:21:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, hey Greg.
1:21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Appreciate you being here today.
1:21:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I've known you for 30 years.
1:21:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I've watched everything that you've been in all this other stuff and it's weird.
1:21:38
[SPEAKER_01]: True crime is kind of taken on a life of its own here and I remember reaching out to get the guy from the OJ Simpson case on the show and he was so pissed off about it.
1:21:50
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes luck.
1:21:51
[SPEAKER_01]: unless you're going to give me five grand.
1:21:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not coming on the goddamn shell.
1:21:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And I go, why is that?
1:21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Just had a curiosity and he goes, it was the easiest murder case I've ever been involved in a my entire life.
1:22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody wants to fucking talk about it.
1:22:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds a little disgruntled.
1:22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's probably the same as you.
1:22:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, shit.
1:22:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many people reach out to you today?
1:22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's still going to talk about two-packing Biggie, right?
1:22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I answer most of the calls just because I feel an obligation to do that plus I enjoy these types.
1:22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is a, this is a fun podcast to go on.
1:22:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Other ones are sometimes kind of dry and just, you know, but I really enjoy the conversation and especially when it segs ways, seg ways into other areas.
1:22:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate you guys for, for breaching out and I really do.
1:22:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I like, I don't mind talking about it, especially under these type of settings.
1:22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we were just hoping you were going to say two Poc was gay today.
1:22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what we really get.
1:22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That would never happen.
1:22:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if I believed it to be true, I wouldn't say it.
1:22:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Smart, that kind of backlash I don't need.
1:23:00
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the type of power that two five still holds in the streets there that you can't say that you're going to get a You're getting some hate mail is just for suggesting that Gary.
1:23:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I look Greg I'm I've already said I'm 18% down this show.
1:23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're good I mean it look
1:23:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I watch broke back mountain on opening night by myself?
1:23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I shouldn't.
1:23:21
[SPEAKER_01]: But for the comedy of it, you know?
1:23:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So things like that make me laugh.
1:23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm fine on this.
1:23:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You would not be.
1:23:28
[SPEAKER_01]: You're good.
1:23:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll leave it at that.
1:23:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to press you any further here.
1:23:33
[SPEAKER_01]: What I will say is go to iTunes, rate the show of five star and leave a quick review.
1:23:38
[SPEAKER_01]: This video will be up on Spotify, tonight's.
1:23:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And Greg, thank you for being here.
1:23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, my pleasure, you guys, take care of yourselves.
1:23:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
1:23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: For the end of the day of the day of the day, all the way, I'm Ross Patterson.
1:23:50
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the drinking bro's podcast.
1:23:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Good, not everyone.