Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #504 The Devious Device - A Conversation With Kirra Pendergast

Transcript

#504 The Devious Device - A Conversation With Kirra Pendergast · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Now, if their settings are not on a high level
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: of privacy, what's going to happen is that the school
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: bus could potentially become an X rated movie theater.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, My mum
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: and dad.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson. Today we're going to
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: be speaking about technology and the metaphorical car crash that
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: everybody rubernecks as they drive past. My guest today on
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: the podcast is Kira Pendergast had Kira on about a
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: month ago and we had a really just such an
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: important conversation about TikTok and the risk gay move that
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: so many of our kids are are engaging in. Today,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: we're going to talk about something that I think and
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be one of those news people
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: who trade in the art of fear mongering, but Kira,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: this is a conversation that every parent whose child has
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: a phone just has to listen to. A couple of
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: months ago on Facebook, you posted something about air drop
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: and cyber flashing. We need to talk about this because
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: so many kids being affected by it. Because parents give
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: their kids smartphones and so many of those smartphones have
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: an air drop feature or something similar. Can you tell
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: us a bit about the things that you and I
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: both discovered around air dropping and how this cyber flashing
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: thing works, because mums and dads will need to know
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: so they can have yet another conversation with their children
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: about the dangers of technology.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it comes out quite a lot.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: And this has been around for quite some time now,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: but at the beginning of each school year, I get
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: an influx of messages from parents, particularly with kids starting
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: year seven who are going off to high school for
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: the first time. And you know, then someone who's in
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: one of the senior years thinks it's hilarious to air
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: drop them a nude or something along those lines, or
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: it will happen on the bus or the train on
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: the way to school through public transport.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: You know, it goes on.
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  Speaker 1: So air drop on an Apple iPhone, for example, will
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: allow people to wirelessly share images. So if you haven't
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: got that lockdown to contacts only or not accepting these
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: files that are effectively being thrown up into the Internet
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: to the cloud and then back down to another device nearby,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: you can receive any images, and it's very hard to
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: unsee some of the things that they're seeing.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: So, Kira, just for those who are sort of shaking
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: their head and going, what is this air drop of
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: which you speak? It's been a feature for many many
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: years now on the Apple iPhone, but a lot of
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: people still don't know what it is or how it works.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: I know you've just said it, but I want to
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: restate it for people who might have been trying to
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: just comprehend what you were saying. Essentially, depending on what
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: your settings in your iPhone allow, there is a function
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: where every now and again, an alert might pop up
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: on your where somebody's with The alert basically says somebody
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: is trying to air drop an image to you, and
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: it gives you a thumbnail sized view of what that
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: image is, and then you have the opportunity to either
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: accept it or reject it. Now, if you've got your
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: settings in air drop to contacts only, what that means
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: is that the only people who can air drop your stuff,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: that is, send you a Bluetooth wireless whatever image or message.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: The only people that can do that are people in
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: your contacts. But sometimes that setting is on public, so
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: anybody in your vicinity, anybody whose phone can talk to
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: yours nearby, they can actually send you an air dropped image.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Correct, So anyone within around ten meters of the receiving
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: device can and the Bluetooth activated can send files. And
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: so that includes like, it's not just iPhones, it's iPads,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: it's nack books, it's anything.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Apple, okay drop. So, just because I want to absolutely
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: hammer this point home for every parent who is listening
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: right now, if your child has an iPhone or an
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Apple product that has that level of connectivity, and all
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: of the new ones do and several models.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: Back as well watches as well, yeah.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: You're great, great there. If their settings are not on
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  Speaker 2: a high level of privacy, what's going to happen is
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: that the school bus could potentially become an X rated movie.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: Theater totally and often does.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: Without their explicit consent. That is it. It just flashes
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: up on their watch, on their phone, on their tablet,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: on their laptop, whatever it is that they're using. Would
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  Speaker 2: you like to accept this message? And there's the image
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: right there in front of them, And like you said,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: you can't unsee this once you've seen it. It's right
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: there that's right.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: And again because of the law, if it's a young
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: person sharing these photos highly illegal.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, it sits in that whole.
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  Speaker 1: Production distribution of child exploitation material Sending a pornographic image
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  Speaker 1: to somebody who is under the age of a teen
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  Speaker 1: is highly illegal in every single state in this country
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: as well. So you've got all of those complexities that
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: roll into it as well. And then we've often got
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: kids are too scared to speak up because they think
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: if they tell mom and dad what just happened, Mum
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: and dad again to take the.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: Phone off them, right, And that's the obvious knee jerk reaction. Right,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, it's not safe. You can't have a phone.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Here's what I'm taken it away from you, and I'm
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: gonna I mean, for years, I've been saying that smart
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: parents give their kids dumb phones. Anyway, like your young
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: kids don't need a smartphone, but it's harder and harder
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: to get a dumb phone, and increasingly kids want a
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: phone if I can't have a smartphone, because they look
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: like they're a loser in front of all of their friends.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: So parents are kind of it's one of those things.
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  Speaker 2: What do we do.
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  Speaker 1: So.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: Piece of advice number one here, I presume get the
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: settings right. So set your settings so that the private.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: At the settings right and make sure you know. I
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: have parents every week say this has happened.
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  Speaker 3: I've taken the phone off them. What should I do now?
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  Speaker 1: And I'm like, take her out for a hot chocolate,
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: thank her for speaking up. Don't ban her from a
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: device because it was nothing that she did. She's asking
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: for help or he's asking for.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: Help, you know, and.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Look after them, encourage them to speak up. These are
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: the conversations you want to be having, because if you
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: ban a child from a device when they said that
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: something happened to them or they know of something going on,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: if you ban them from it, they're going to drive.
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  Speaker 3: It's going to drive every conversation you want to be
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: having as a parent underground.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: So you want to keep those conversations happening. So encouraging
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: them to speak up so that you can help them,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: or you can engage professionals like myself, yourself, whoever to
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: help in these situations is invaluable.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: So glad you said that the idea of taking the
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: phone off the kids. Absolutely, it just makes me think, well,
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  Speaker 2: I've got to hide this. I can't talk about it.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, we had Kristen Jensen on the phone.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: She's written a couple of books for kids about explicit
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: at content about pornography called Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, And
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: there's one for the junior kids as well, the sort
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: of the three, four, five, six year olds, really really
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: smart lady, and she basically, I guess what I'm doing
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: is I'm re emphasizing what you've said, She says, talk
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: to your kids proactively. Let them know, no matter how
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: hard we try, there are going to be some people
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: who eventually are going to put bad pictures in your path.
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  Speaker 2: And when that happens, we need to know what we're
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: going to do. And what we're going to do is
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  Speaker 2: we're going to turn it off, we're going to move away,
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  Speaker 2: and we're going to tell someone.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And if we can just teach our kids to do that,
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  Speaker 2: we get to have productive, helpful conversations. We get to
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: check the settings, we get to keep the kids safe.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: We get to talk about were you curious? Of course
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  Speaker 2: you were, because we're designed to be curious about this stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Did it make you feel good or bad?
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  Speaker 3: Though?
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. It did make you feel bad because
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  Speaker 2: this is not the time or the place for you
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  Speaker 2: or really anybody to be exposed to this sort of stuff.
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  Speaker 2: So your advice around this is spot on. There's one
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: more conversation we need to have. I'm not sure that
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: there's a whole lot more we can talk about other
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: than raising awareness of this cyber flashing air drop issue.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: But something else that's been happening for a couple of
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: years now, but seems to have really, at least in
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: conversations that I've been having, and I know you're having
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: these conversations all the time. Something else that's come up
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: in relation to sextortion on social media, particularly particularly for
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: our daughters, but for some boys as well. Let's talk
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: about that right off the break. Between fifteen and twenty
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: percent of teens have anxiety. Anxiety is one of the
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: leading causes of mental illness in our children, and as parents,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: we want to know where is it coming from, can
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: we stop it, and how do we help our children
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: just feel better? Start by learning how to recognize anxiety
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: in your child, how to respond, and how to give
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: them hope and the anxiety in your child. Webinar can
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: help it's available Happy Families dot com dot au. It's
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the type or
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: parent who just wants answers. Now it's doctor Justin Colson
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: today spending some time with Safe on Socials Kira Pendergast,
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: who is I think one of the nation's leading experts
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: in all things tech when it comes to keeping our
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: kids safe online. Kira, in a conversation that we had
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: a little while ago, you were highlighting just how many
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: of our kids are exposing themselves through grooming, or through threats,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: or through any number of other things and finding themselves
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: in some very very dangerous and uncomfortable situations things that
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: and it happens like it's one of those things where
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: everyone goes, oh, well, that would never happen to me,
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: That would never happen to my kids. But it happens
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: a lot. This is not an uncommon thing. Can you
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: tell me a little bit about the sextortion, particularly on
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Instagram that you've been coming across in your work with
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: high school kids.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: You may want to put a big disclaimer warning content
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: warning of a huge level here. There's no way that
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: I can sugarcoat what's going on in this space. It's
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: a blunt conversation. Teens are curious. Through direct message on Instagram,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: they will often get messages.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: From people that they don't know that link.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Them straight to pornographic adult entertainment website. They will get messages.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: I've had everything from catfishing, which is when someone's pretending
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to be somebody else and it could be other kids
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: in a school and they're using it for a laugh,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: and they've sent images to a young person boy or girl,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: pretending to be someone of the same sex, opposite sex,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: or whatever. That child is leaning into it that particular
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: point in their life and pretended to be someone that
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: was interested in them, convinced them to set and nude
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: photo and then shared it or used it as a joke.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: And then you know the sextortion that I'm seeing more
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: often than not at the moment. And for those that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: don't understand what that is, it's you know, it's literally
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: a combination of the words sexual and extortion. It's a
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: very serious crime when someone threatens to distribute intimate or
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: private and sensitive material of a sexual nature without your consent. Now,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: when anyone is under the age of eighteen in Australia
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: that's involved in that that.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Is distribution of child exploitation material.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: So again it's highly illegal and there's multitude of laws
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: around that that I'm happy to provide you a list
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: of them all justin if you want to put them
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: in the show notes.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: I've written them all out.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: So what they'll do is they'll often target people and
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: through direct message on Instagram or direct message requests. I
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: should say, they're never going to come from a child's friend.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: They're going to come from some random person that is
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: trying to exploit that child. And recently I had a
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: case where the girl involved was sixteen. She was actually
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: at home, sitting on the couch next to her mother
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: when she got a direct message request on Instagram. So
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: that little ping that goes off the notifications that we
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: always encourage kids to turn off so they're not tempted
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: to look at that the ping went off, she's had
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: a look gone.
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: Into this message.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: The person said send us a nude in sixty seconds,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: or we're going to send this image, and they cropped
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: an image of a young woman laying naked on a
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: bed from neck to knee that we're going to send
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: this image to the last three people that clicked like
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: on one of your Instagram photos and say it to you,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: and she.
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: Called their bluff and blocked it.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: They came back under another username, and they did that
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: five times, and on the last one they said, we
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: told you, and they did it.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: And so they sent it.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: To three boys that ended up being in the same
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: town as this young girl who she played sport with
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: on the weekends. And so she was a mess when
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: she came up to me after the session, because I'd
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: explained what this was in my high school session and
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: she said it had happened to her the night before.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: I explained that because it was a disclosure, we had
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: to go and talk to the principle and we did
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: that and we called the local police and her mom
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: and they all came in, and the police went to
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: the boys at the other school and said, you know,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: it wasn't her, and they were very respectful young men
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: and they said, we didn't think it was, you know,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: And it was all shut down very very quickly.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: But again, it's that we were really lucky.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: In this situation that this young woman had such a
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: good relationship with her mom that she told her mom
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: instead of her mom freaking out and taking the phone.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: Off her and everything like that.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: They did, went through the whole process and reported it properly,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: and so the mum already knew. The mum had contacted
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: the police the night before. We contacted them again.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: And got it all sorted out. So again, it's about
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: speaking up.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Now. When I explain this kind of situation to a
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: primary school age child, it's again encouraging them to speak up,
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: because if I do ask who's too scared to tell
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: mum and dad what's actually happening online, most of the
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: room will put their hand up. So I encourage them
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: to tell a teacher or another trusted adult, and to
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: remember that these people are on the other side of
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: a screen.
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: They are completely one hundred.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: Percent safe as long as they speak up and tell
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: someone immediately. When someone threatens them in any way online,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: or says they're going to share an image and pretend
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: it's them, or anything that makes them feel uncomfortable, they need.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: To speak up.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Kira, I really appreciate the story, as hard as it
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: is to hear, and what I appreciate even more is
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: the way that it was taken seriously by the parents,
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: by the school, by the law enforcement, and by the
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: boys recipients of that message. I mean, it could have
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: gone sideways in so many different places, but fortunately we've
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: got a sequence of events that has worked out really
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: neatly and fortunately for that young woman really quite positively.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: What this highlights, and we don't need to wrap this up,
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: but it highlights a couple of things to me, and
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: I'm going to dive in with a little bit of
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: parenting advice if I can. First off, we've just got
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: to be talking to our kids consistently. We've got to
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: be in their lives and monitoring, not in a let
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: me snoop over your shoulder and have a look at
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: everything you're doing because I can't trust you a way,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: but rather having regular conversations and checking in, like you've
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: said in our discussion, making sure that they know who
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: is following them and who they're following, making sure that
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: they do regular cleanouts, make sure that their feeds are
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: full of inspiring and positive ideas rather than negative ones,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: and perhaps most importantly of all, teaching them that you
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: don't open direct messages on Instagram or any other app
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: from people that you don't know. I mean, you and
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: I I'm sure have had countless messages that come into
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: our inboxes from people that we don't know. And yeah,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: and as adults, we can kind of tell what this
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: is going to be.
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: So yeah, when you're when you're when you're a self
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: conscious teenager and someone sends you a message going, oh,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: you're so beautiful or you're so handsome or you're so hot,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: and I won't really want to be a friend and
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: stuff like that.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: If they're lonely and bored in their bedroom at night,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: they're more likely to.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Want to do that. That's why, you know, my number
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: one tip for parents has always banned.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: The phones from the bedroom in the bathroom, full stop,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the end of story.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, been over that. It was with six daughters.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: You can imagine how many times I've had that conversation
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: with my kids. And I think the other the other
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: big take home. I mean, there's so many things we
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: could pull out of these conversations today. But the other
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: big take home for me is get those settings set
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: with a recognition that the kids can and often will
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: work around it. But it's just part of that whole
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: talking monitoring being in their lives and making sure they
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: come and talk to you. I mean, god, yeah, you've
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: shared some really really valuable content. As always, Kira, it's
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: a delight to talk with you on the Happy Families Podcast.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Thanks Justin.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Kira Pendergast runs Safe on Social. She's the CEO and
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: has noodles and noodles of value that she can bring
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: to the work that you do with your kids and
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: try to keep them safe online if it's tech, she
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: knows it really great to have Kira as a friend
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: of the Happy Families Podcast. We really appreciate as always
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: the work of Justin Roland and Craig Bruce. They're the
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: ones who produce and executive produce the podcast to make
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: it sound great. And if you'd like more info about
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: making your family happier, we would love for you to
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: join us in our Happy Families memberships. You can find
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: all the information you need happy families dot com dot
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: au