Latest / Partnerships Unraveled / 108- Anna-Maria Löweberg - Mastering EMEA's Channel Landscape

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108- Anna-Maria Löweberg - Mastering EMEA's Channel Landscape · Partnerships Unraveled

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the podcast where we unravel the mysteries about partnerships, and channel on a weekly basis.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: My name is Alex Whitford and I'm the VP of Revenue here at Chanext, and this week I'm very excited to welcome our special guest, anna Maria.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: How are you doing?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: I'm fine, thank you.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Nice to be here, hi Alex, how are you?
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: I'm doing very well.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to have you on.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a dynamic conversation today.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'm excited to have you on.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a dynamic conversation today, maybe for the uninitiated you could give us a little bit about who you are and where you've come from.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, so I'm Anna-Maria Loverberg, based out of Stockholm, sweden, 20 years well, 20 plus years in this industry.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: I guess you add a plus when you've been here a long time.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Right Today, I'm leading the partner organization in EMEA for HashiCorp.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Previously, I've had different sales and partner and manager roles within VMware, ibm and HP, and I'm super passionate about talking about the transformation, developing partner ecosystem, driving business outcomes, but also I'm passionate about talent development.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Excellent.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Well, we often talk about the reason B2B and channel is so exciting is because you end up speaking to people about business and you can coach people about business, so I always think talent and channel come really well together, so I can understand how you've had such an exciting career with some great names on that list as well.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: There's some nice brands in there.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's been an amazing journey.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: So one of the great things about channel is we often see the channel is specific to EMEA.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: It seems to be especially American led businesses.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: They come to EMEA and they go.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Oh, this is complicated.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: There's different taxes and languages and complexities with being a European organization, languages and complexities with being a European organization.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: So what are the sort of pros of cons of implementing a channel first strategy when you expand to EMEA from your perspective?
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is obviously my view, but there are a couple of things that you need to take into consideration, and we wouldn't sit here if there were one right answer on this.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: So it's not like this is the way to do it.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: But firstly, I think it's pretty obvious that you need to know your product and your solution and what values it creates and to whom.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: Is it service heavy?
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Is it more for some verticals?
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Is it for smaller or larger businesses?
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: It's actually initially more important to understand the products than to understand the customers.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: Then you need to understand the dynamic of the different markets.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: It is not as easy as larger and smaller countries.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: In UK, it's very enterprise heavy, with a super important financial sectors.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Germany has big companies as well, right, but they also have a very big SMB market and based out of Sweden, I need to mention.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: It's so funny to hear everyone talking about the Nordics outside of the Nordics, as Nordic was a country.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: It's actually just a country for the people that are outside of the territory.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: We are more like a family sisters and brothers where we might actually come together when we have threats from outside, but inside we work differently, we align differently and we are organized differently.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: And just to add even more complexity.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: It's the same in the Benelux, different but similar.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it's not easy and if you're, I mean, then you have like, if your solution is a perfect fit for public sector.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: That's also a different nut to crack in a way, because it's so important for all countries in Europe and so big, but it's not profit center.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: So they all have budgets and they actually normally want to spend their money, but in different quarter depending on in which countries you are and what laws and regulations you have.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: And to add to that, as you mentioned, different cultures and business manners and easy of doing businesses.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: You have probably been in conversations with like US coming in and say, oh, this market has like the best total addressable market.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: We should go into that market, but the easy and the complexity of the way of doing business there might just make that market super difficult to enter.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: And obviously in those kinds of markets a partner model might be far the fastest part to come into it.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: But taking all this into consideration, you have some kind of an idea of where to invest and how.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Again, there is no size that fits all.
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: My recommendation would actually be, country by country, and learn from the successes and try to grow that way A little bit.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Like you normally hear people entering a country, growing customer by customer and bringing success there.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: But having partners in the market helps you understand.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: So for me it's not about either, or it's not about having salespeople or partner people.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: It's actually to make sure that you focus on the values that you can bring and bring onto the market and the partners add the local knowledge and what they know about the customers and if they see value in your products and for their customers and if you are a vendor they trust, then you will scale.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I would also say that partners will not always be like investing the way you want in your technology, because they might have different priorities right, and they cannot always be in forefront for every vendor.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that you can't work together and collaborate.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Also, customers, when you start to grow in markets, they would like to have their own vendor relationship and the more strategic you get, the closer you need to be with those customers.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: But never you should kind of say it's like partner or not partner.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: You can make that work with all the different, with all partnerships included in that mix.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we we talk a lot about in this podcast and we've had a few specialists who've really run and built programs coming from from sort of U?
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: S and, as the U?
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: S lovingly call it, international, which means anywhere apart from the U S?
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Um, but they, you know, I always think you start with the customer in mind, right, that that's the, that's the, that's your priority.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And if it's finance, and that's you've decided.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Well, how is hsbc buying?
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Right, let's learn from what the customer requires, how the support, and then work backwards from there and that's sort of how you organically build up your channel.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: But understanding the nuances between the countries is important, right, some countries really only want to deal with sales people who speak that language, right?
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: I think, as you, as you sort of call out, right, as lots of europeans will say, the nordics, which doesn't actually mean anything, um, but obviously famously speak english wonderfully well, I live in the netherlands.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: They speak better english than most english people.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, if you transition into germany or france, right, the prerequisite to do business in local language changes.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: And so understanding the nuances between what has to be localized and what can be centralized, understanding that balance, is sort of critical to building effective program structure.
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I find yes, of course, and there is learning you can do for everyone, right?
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's not like it will not work there or there.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: It's so much so it's interesting too.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, correct I.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: You know, one of the really powerful things about running a global organization is make sure it is a global organization, because 100 silos means that you're just learning individual lessons 100 times, as opposed to hey, the US did this.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: It works really well.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: How do we transition that to the UK and how does the UK learn from Germanyany?
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: And we can continue to sort of spin this up.
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: That's how you really drive that sort of efficiency forward.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Um, in terms of when you expand into the new geography and you're trying to sell through the channel, how do you network your success into the global organization and manage expectations before revenue?
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: I think one of the things that channel leaders really struggle with is there's a lot of work that happens before you get one euro dollar pound yen through the door.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes a long time to build that, just to get that first dollar over the line.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: So how are you networking that success back into global?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Well, first I think it's a little bit of coming back to what we just discussed.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: It's about understanding the size of the market and setting the right expectations on all ends.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: And then it's about like making sure you invest in what actually is strategic to the market.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: It's not always the kind of going after the biggest deal.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: In a lot of case it is, and that is important.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Right, we want revenue, but getting a strategic customer or a high profile customer, if it's kind of suits for the vertical you want to work with, as you said, in the financial sector, that can mean so much more than actually bringing the biggest deal size in.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Mostly important, making sure you focus on the customers and the outcomes and find a way to communicate the success as well internally as externally.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: And for me as a partner team and a partner person, it's as important to kind of selling to the partners and get them to understand the value of your solution as it is to sell internally to your organization so they really understand the value with each partner and what that actually can take you.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: You can do it in a lot of different ways.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: In previous lives I've kind of you know, also proven what the partners are doing in the market Like a deal size for us might be 20k, but the relationship for the partner might be worth three, four, five, six, ten times as much, and understanding.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: That is also important I completely agree.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: I think the nuances between the sort of customer dynamic and the partner dynamic sort of messaging that back to central and and almost treating partners like people right, it's not just a, a number on a spreadsheet that we have to move one stage across.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: There is a, there is a whole process that goes into driving that engagement.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: I think in in a previous conversation we always do a lovely prep call before this.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: You mentioned that hashi corp is a more direct sales orientated in the us um and uses partners to drive consumption rather than sort of drive facilitation or transaction.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: How do you look at partners differently in EMEA and why does that difference exist?
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for the time being.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly as you say, us have come from a more history of direct sales and then they use partners to consume our technology with services, so they haven't been as involved as our partners have been in the transaction in EMEA, but I don't think that is unique or unusual for HashiCorp.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: For all companies I've worked with, the US has always had a greater direct business.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Just by the nature of EMEA.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Partners are, and need to be, involved in all much bigger parts of the business.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: We already discussed a couple of the things here, but it's not just the different languages, currencies, laws and stuff like that.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: We need them to be able to sell into certain frameworks.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: We need a local security clearance.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: We need them to scale and to represent us in all the different countries.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: I think you say EMEA contains 115 countries and roughly 225 languages.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I think it's like 25 business languages, but still that is complex, right, and sometimes when US organizations comes into EMEA, we see them building up small EMEA partner kingdoms with different silos for different route to markets, and my experience tells me that if you have one partner organization that owns it all, you can serve all routes to markets much better and address the markets in a much better way and you will not confuse the market For a lot of partners they will work with otherwise, will work with three different people for like what they see as one business and but with that I'm not saying that partners is not, or we are not saying that partner is not needed in US.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: It's just that the dynamic of the market is a bit different and this multi-cloud world where transforming with IT is key to not all industries but also all countries and all governments.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: We need to understand that.
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: All those regulation in many cases they are so important, but they add complexity and the more complex it gets, the more we need partners and local partners.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: It has actually become pretty difficult for a vendor to be unique these days.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: For us, we as vendors, we're more like a tool in a toolbox, and if we have partners that have are the skills and knowledge of our solutions and have the trust into our solution but not just to like the technology, also to our commercial models and the way we do business, they will use our tools more often and I obviously want our tools to be their favorite one.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: One thing I will also add is that in any types of EMEA roles or international roles.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I highly recommend anyone similar to me to work closely with their peers.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: In my previous life at VMware I worked very close with my peers in the EMEA partner organization and now I work very close with our APG partner lead, because then we can kind of discuss our challenges, prioritize them and our voice gets stronger into our corporate or global organization.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there are fundamentally economic go-to-market differences between the US, and I think this is one of the things that is sort of true, and I've been managed by a few and worked with a few and hosted a few on this podcast as well.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: They truly understand what those differences are, right.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's as simple as a public sector only buys off frameworks in the UK.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: So, fundamentally, unless you're on the framework, you're working with partners.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: That's the only way you're getting access to the NHS as an example, right.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: And so understanding the customer buying patterns and the requirements there, I think, is intrinsically so important to getting your program right.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: And I know brands who've got it wrong and then suddenly they're nine months down the line going oh no, we've hired all these, all these people and and now these people are telling us that we need to either invest in frameworks or invest in partnerships and suddenly this isn't working right.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: So fundamentally, you have to start with that outcome in mind, and that's customer first, I think.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: The other thing that I sometimes I feel is over, over evaluated is because we spend so much time talking about the differences between region to region, we forget that 98% of it's the same right.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: So local language, local tax, local law might deviate slightly, but a good partner program that works in France, if it really works well in France, it will really work well in Germany.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: There's some nuances around the edge that need to be changed, but if it's a successful program, it can be widely successful.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: And so, learning from your counterparts in APJ or in other parts of the world, understanding what's working well for them, those skills are transferable and it's one of the things, even from program design to partner management learn from the people around you.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: I fully agree.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: They have the answers because they've been in those conversations before.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Right, so why make the mistake when we can learn from someone else?
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: 100.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: And also I mean, if there is a challenge for both of you, you kind of can together build a case and really address it in a proper way yeah, or you can test it right, and so one of the things that, one of the things that I love about the channel and I love about program design is hey, we don't know whether solution a, b or C is right, perfect, let's implement all three in three different regions and we can measure it.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: So this doesn't need to be a a guest game.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: We don't need a hypothesis.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I can prove this.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: I just need six months.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And then, when you start to talk in those terms, you realize that EVPs and C-level that's what they respond to.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: They want to know what's my POC, how much is this going to cost, how much are we going to?
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: And then I've got the data and then we can make a great decision that affects thousands of customers simultaneously.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: And so that that understanding and that testing, that's where that collaboration, cross department or cross region really comes into its own, because it's a joint proposition with different tests, but whoever wins wins because we all win at the end.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, 100%.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Excellent, good, I'm glad we agree.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that I think is significantly underrated within the channel is we try and understand our customers really well, but the partners know the customers better.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: I hate to break it to every vendor out there but, like you say, you might sell $1, but they're selling 10 to that same customer, so they sell a lot to those customers.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So some of the things I think work really well is setting up a partner advisory council, which I know you have done.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Talk to me about why and how and what happened as a result.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Well, I just, I mean, I think that's one of the best part of my job.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I just love any partner advisory council or board I've set up and it is so important.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: And the most important thing is a bit obvious listen, listen and listen and prove that the feedback and the ideas are listened to.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: And yeah, you will not solve it all, but that is again how you build trust.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: For me, a healthy, vibrant and transparent sometimes difficult partner advisory board has been key to success in all my partner roles.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: For me, again, as we were already discussing, this gives the partner a chance to get a stronger voice into global, but also for global to understand the more local challenges and for them to prioritize, so everything not just become like noise.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I've also seen it as a possibility to bring leaders in the business closer to the stakeholders in our strategic partners, and those discussions are I mean our strategic partners, and those discussions are, I mean it's invaluable, it's so valuable, I mean it's super valuable.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: But then also I see that I mean for me, you will never be successful in partner if you work in silos.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Partner programs and partner teams, collaboration they can be phenomenal, but if there is no one in your sales organization that actually feels that they also own a responsibility for those programs, they will never work well.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: So, also to make sure that you bring them together to actually achieve the full potential of your partner ecosystem, that's key to me.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: So for me it works as good internally as externally.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: And I would also say that one super important thing is to have the right members, because it's not just about you sending, it's about actually, as I said, listen, listen, listen.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: And then you need to have the right members who also believe that by sharing we build this market together.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: So don't sit sitting there hiding their secret sauce, but actually understanding that a healthy competition is kind of good and will serve everyone.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: I completely agree.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: I think the feedback, and sometimes the harsh feedback those are where the valuable lessons right.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Having a partner advisory council where they pat you on the back and say, good job, probably was a waste of time, right?
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: The actual feedback you want is, hey, this is broken and it's causing me a huge problem and if we fix that, this amazing thing's going to happen.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: That that message straight from the partner ideally to your boss's boss is wonderfully helpful to create movement, right, because then it's not coming from you, it's coming from the market, which is the bit that matters.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you actually kind of don't tell anyone.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly so, ana Maria.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Apart from us both being channel and partner nerds, we have one other thing in common.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I'm sure a load of other things, but we have one thing in particular in common, which is um, a part of us felt that we were both destined to become teachers and we ended up ending up in the channel.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: Why are those worlds not that far apart?
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: yeah, well, actually until recently, I was a figure skating coach and preparing for this, I think in a way, I kind of have been a teacher by being that, and I always had as a purpose that I needed to be the student's best Wednesday.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: To me, being a coach is not just about winning medals Obviously that's funny, but it's a lot about giving back to the sport that have given me so much.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: But it's a lot about giving back to the sport that have given me so much, not only friendship for life or like, hopefully, better health, but also the importance and the ability to focus and prioritize and being on the ice.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: It kind of probably kept me out of a lot of different troubles I could have ended up with.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And I wanted the same for my students.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be the best Wednesday for them as long as possible.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, one day it needs to end right but I knew that if I give them this, this is a great opportunity for them to become the most of themselves, kind of.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: And partnership to me is a bit the same.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I want us to be our partner's best partnership every day in the week, and by coaching them as well the partners as well as coaching our internal team.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: I strongly believe we can get there, but I must say it's always work in progress.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: This is not like you can't say you have, you have been successful.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: It's like it's an endless work in progress process yeah, I, I, I love it both at a philosophical level and a really tangible level.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: For me, um, the best and I I stumbled upon it completely by accident channel was just luck.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: I just applied to a company and ended up working in the channel.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: But I couldn't believe it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: I was 25 and I was giving people business advice, like I was giving managing directors of companies business advice.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: I was like who the hell am I?
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: And I get to coach these people and after a while, you start to really learn what works and what makes a difference.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: And to me, the years later, getting that message to be like hey, alex, just wanted to check in, by the way, thanks so much for all your help.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: I'm like this is such excellent validation, like to be able to not just help people but help people be successful, which keeps the lights on and keeps their business going and their pride and joy growing.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I think it's always an absolute privilege to be a part of it, yeah, and you get so proud.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I actually got a call from a figure skating student last week, kind of like I've thought so much about you.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I haven't talked to her for 20 years and I was like, oh my God, I thought about you as well, but it's so amazing to be able to well have played that role in a couple of people's life.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I always find it like I do a lot of mentoring for young salespeople, which is a really great part of my job, and you know to hear people sort of say, hey, thanks, you had such an instrumental role, and I sort of sit there and go, you did all the work.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I like nudged you in a direction on one random Tuesday and then you did 10 years of hard work and suddenly now I'm great.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: No, like they did all the work, but it is a really enjoyable part of of leadership and an enjoyable part of the channel in particular.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: I think it's wonderful A hundred percent.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: So in true channel, uh, roles.
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: Part of channels very often is giving leads to people which, uh, on this podcast, we love a shameless lead.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Um, anna Maria, who did you?
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Who do you think we should have on this podcast next?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Well, I actually would recommend you to speak to two great gentlemen that I have had a lot of fun but also learned a lot from working with in my previous life.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: So one is Torben Sibbens, who had different sales and partner roles within Red Hat, vmware, suse and now a CRO at QBARC.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: But also Rob Tomlin, who is the man managing director today at Exclusive Networks in UK.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: But I worked with him when he worked close with him when he was at Dell.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: So I think those two could really well that can be interesting discussions that I want to listen to.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Amazing.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: So, torben, rob, we're coming your way.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Anna-maria, thank you so much for coming on.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: It's been an absolute pleasure.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.