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Leonard Lake and Charles Ng - Serial Killers - Part 2 · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Last episode, we talked about part one of Leonard Lake
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: and Charles ng. Today we continue that case with part two,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So please check out part one and get ready for
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: the rest of this case.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: and Grim, a true crime podcast.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: The following podcast.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Material intend for a mature audience listener discretion.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Ad.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: We just got wine. We've been wine all day, well
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: not all. We're on bottle number two, Okay, I've.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Am freaking like, Oh no, I guess I've had two
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: glasses of wine.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah you have.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I haven't moved on to the white like you have, though.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm halfway through the bottle of white. I
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: guess apparently. Good God, it's been a good lubricant for
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: the research on this case. I'm not gonna lie, all right,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: lubercint eh, It's yes, it's a lubricant. Huh of the emotions,
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: That's one way to describe it. I am going to
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: just say we are, well, Ben is drinking. I haven't
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: got there.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Yet, have a wine glass right there.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: But I was going to talk about the little straw
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: or is this little straw?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know shit, I think this.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Is Little Straw too. So Little Straw is in Kolonna.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite freakin' wineries. It's so damn good.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: No, this isn't sponsored. Nicole just actually likes their wine.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: I actually just I don't know. I like little, kind
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: of smaller wineries and they're a little bit smaller. You're
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: drinking Tapestry and it's really good.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: A little bit sweet for me, but it is pretty good.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I usually like a bit of a dryer wine.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: But I guess it technically is in West Colonna. Yeah,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: West Colonna, the Okanagan.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: So this is a true Crown podcast, not a wine podcast.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: We should probably stop talking wine. We're not wine connoisseurs,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: at least I'm not.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: All I know is enjoy it touche.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: All I know is if it goes down good and
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: it helps me research a case, which it definitely did
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: on this one, because oh god, it's a doozy. Do
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: you remember what happened in this case?
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: To be brutally honest, I have no idea because since
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: then I have shot two weddings, god knows what else.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: I've done lots of work and I barely remember.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: So your recap I got you back. I got a
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: good recap. We're going to go over it. But before
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: we do the recap, we of course have to thank
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: our patroots. So we had two amazing people sign up
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: over on Patreon this week. We have Stacey Ray Daniels
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: and Sophia Shinn. Thank you very much. We're going to
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: be doing a lot on Patreon this week with getting
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: some input and we're prepping for a live over there
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: at the end of the month too, so very cool. Yeah. Yeah,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So let's dive into this. Are you ready because I'm
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: sure many people are listening to part one and diving
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: right into part two. Oh yeah, let's keep it short.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Let's get into this.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, we need to recap though.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, so the recap in part one of the case
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: of Leonard Lake and Charles Saying, we discussed several things
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: and amongst them, we started with Charles and the shoplifting
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: from a lumber store, and that lumber store was South
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: City Lumber and Supply. Now, being a kleptomaniac, Charles couldn't
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: resist the urge to try and steal a table vice
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: that was valued at about seventy five dollars. Now, unfortunately
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: for him, he didn't get away with it. He was
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: approached about the shoplifting at the car and took off running,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: while his friend Leonard Lake was left trying to talk
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: with police and resolve the issue.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Leonard though, was arrested when they found an illegally modified
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: rifle in the car, and Leonard, however, had an ace
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: up as sleeve for being arrested for just such an occasion.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's coming back a little.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: While being held for questioning, officers return to the room, yeah,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: for him to be found on the floor convulsing and
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: was later pronounced.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Dead and he had left a note.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: He did leave a note. Yes, Now, it was discovered
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: that Leonard had sewn cyanide tablets into the hem of
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: his clothes and took his own life. This was the
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: beginning of the officers diving into a rabbit hole of
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: these two men, and along the way they found several
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: connections between them and missing individuals, and the evidence just
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: keeps piling up. Officers performed a search of Leonard's cabin
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: in northern California with consent from his ex wife. They
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: did not have a warrant, so it was a consent search,
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: but when they found video equipment that belonged to a
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: family who had been missing for the past eleven months.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: She immediately ended the consent search, kicking authorities off the property.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: And that's where we left off.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Shit, And there was like a back shed or something,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: right there was ominous but back shed that they were Well, it's.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Been described as many things. I'm going to continue calling
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: it a shed, most likely in this I think I've
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: described it a few different ways. But it's like a
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: like a bunker, a shed, like another little cat, it's
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: like a cinder block out building. Okay, so it's yeah,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: it's it's because he was a bit of like a
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: they call it a prepper, which I touch on in
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: here a bit, and he like prepared for things like
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: survivalists and stuff like that. So we had this like
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: bunker for that sort of stuff too.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: So honestly, like not a terrible idea.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: No, it's not, especially giving today's world and how the
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: economy is going. Yeah, like man, anyway, that's a whole
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: other topic.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is very much topic.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: Trust me, I can go especially given the lubricants I've
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: been consuming today in this wine, I can go on
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: for a long time. Both that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: That's only I feel like it's a slight downfall of
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: tiny home living ish because you're kind of like you
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: can't really stalk up on food and stuff.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: You can pick up and go at any time kind
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: of so long as you have a vehicle to tow it. Yeah,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: but let's get onto this. You ready for part two?
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah? I am. It's not going to be good, Okay,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I remember, I'm remembering things, that's all right.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: So authorities were walking off the property and they eyed
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: up that that outbuilding, the shed, the bunker, and they're
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: wondering what was inside there was padlocked. They couldn't search
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: anything else because the ex wife is like, hey, sorry,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: you got to get out of here now. Given the
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: evidence that they had already obtained regarding Leonard and now
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: discovering this stolen video equipment within the property if you
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: remember that from last episode, because that's when you know
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: they found this.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: And they phoned it in and stuff, right, yeah, match.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: The serial numbers everything. Given this connection with the video equipment,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: the police were able to obtain a search warrant and
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: return back to the cabin only a few hours later.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: Nice, yeah, right on.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: This time, they didn't need permission from anyone. With a
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: warrant in hand, they were able to search the property
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: to the fullest extend. Okay, one of the first things
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: they did was focus on the cinder block outbuilding that's shed.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: They did like a spider sense about this shed head.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's a little bit ominous. It's like, okay,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: what's in there? Right, So they didn't know what they
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: would find inside, and they worked their magic getting the
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: padlocks off because it was heavily locked. But once they
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: managed to get their way in and they opened it,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: each investigator was holding their breath with the nerves of anticipation.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: The inside didn't seem anything out of the ordinary at first. Leonard,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: as I mentioned, was a bit of a prepper, meaning
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: someone who prepares for disasters, dire situations and of the world, etc.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: And everyone has their own thing that they're prepping for,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: so it prepping has different definitions within that. It could
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: be food, it could be gas. You could be prepping
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: they call it bug out bags, which is just a
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: bag to get up and leave in the case of
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: like a forest fire in our area, for example. So
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: it all depends on what you're quote prepping for. So
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: with him. Though, the inside didn't have many things that
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: was too out of the ordinary, outside of course a
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: little bit of prepping stuff, but there was also tools
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: and stuff that you would actually generally find in a
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: shed like structure as well. However, the first thing that
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: they actually spotted out of the ordinary were twenty one
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: photos that were adorning the wall. Now, the photos were
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: of young women, some dressed some not. They didn't know
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: who they were or who the pictures were taken from,
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: like who took the pictures, but the investigators to them
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: it seemed like it could possibly be a trophy wall.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Oh jeez, that's disgusting.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They also found a journal inside this shed, a
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: journal that was written by Leonard himself. Now, inside he
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: talked about many different things, and he obsessedly talked about
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: the book that he was really reading NonStop and basically
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: held like a bible to him the collector remember that
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: from last time, yeap. So he also had inserts in
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: here where he talked about something called quote Project Moran,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: which was named after the woman in the book who
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: was captured. So Miranda was the woman in the book
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: who the individual was like obsessing with and wanted to
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: make her part of his butterfly collection.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, so he named this his project Project Miranda,
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: after Miranda from the book Oh Man. Okay, Now, I
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: didn't allude a lot to a project Miranda really wrote.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It really entailed. So authorities did keep searching, and they
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: searched not only of course, through the shed, but the
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: cabin as well though, and they were also spreading their
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: their search across the property, and I believe it was
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: about a third of an acre at this cabin was on. Now,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: on this property they found two different cars, both belonging
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to missing persons. Holy shit, it seemed all too easy
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: to make the assumptions that killings were taking place and
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: occurring at the hand of Leonard Lake. And if that
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: was the case, it wouldn't be far fetched to think
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: that bodies might be buried on this property as well.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Well. Honestly, when they opened the shed, I was thinking
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: that they were either was they're going to find someone
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: alive in there or bodies a body of sort or something. Yeah,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: so I was surprised that they that they didn't.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Well, cadaver dogs were brought onto the scene because of
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: the assumption that, you know what, there could be bodies buried.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: There could be someone here that we don't know of,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: And so dogs are brought on the scene and they roamed,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: they sniffed the property, you know, doing their job. It's dogs, right,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: and they found several different sites where various fires had
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: been lit, which seemed to interest the dogs greatly. Now,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: one of the dogs in particular also found a bone,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: a bone that investigators immediately knew was not animal and
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: identified as a human bone.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, I mean not surprising.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this was officially no longer an execution of a
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: search warrant. Only three days later, after Leonard had actually
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: committed suicide, the cabin property was officially a crime.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And he knew that, he knew his time was here, hey, like, oh,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: he knew he was done.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why he had that backup plan. Doublets.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: That is just so interesting to just be living your
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: life doing something so terrible that you have to just
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: have this backup plan like this in case you get found.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: I know, like that, just like fuck him for not
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: even facing what he did, you know, Yeah, like holy shit,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: what a fucking coward.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, actually yeah, that's yeah.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: So large crews of investigators in all different fields of expertise,
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: of course, came to the site to begin to process
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the property. They sectioned it all off. They did, like,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if it's like a grid
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: pattern or what exactly, most likely to my assumption, but
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: they sectioned it off and designated different areas for different
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: teams to begin their work. Now in the cinderblock shed,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: they continued the investigation and it led them to uncover
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: some alarming things. They discovered a hidden door inside, not
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: noticeable at first if you didn't know it was there.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: But after a while of searching and you know, due diligence,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: it was discovered the door was located behind some wall
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: mounted shelves and once you kind of wiggled the shelves
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: a bit, the door began to pull free with the
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: shelves and it revealed a small room with a cot
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: behind it.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: Whoa, okay, I was like, there has to be more
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: to this frickin shed. Holy shit.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: And after further investigation on the hinges on this door
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: as well, it seemed that they were buckling and bending
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: a little bit, most likely from force from the inside.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: No yeah, oh man, okay, well I just can only
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: I can only imagine like the chilling feeling that you
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: would just get when you discover like this shit, I.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Don't even know where my head would be, like I
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: like trying to put myself in the shoes of an investigator,
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: like discovering the door as one thing, but then the
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: second you open it up and see firsthand what the
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: fuck is back there, like holy.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Fuck, I don't I feel like you almost wouldn't even
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: be react like I mean, you would react emotionally, but
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: like you wouldn't because you're just there like trying to
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: solve this, you know, and you almost, like I don't know,
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: take your emotions out of the picture, and it's just
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: like fax facts, right, because fair.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: But I like for me, like my I don't know
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: if you will, like anxiety takes form and like you know,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: when you get cold, you have the shivers. I have
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: like a ball of that like shivers, but it's like
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: so like so much smaller than shivers. It's like jitters.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: It's like a ball of it in my chest and
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I can just like trying to do my job, but
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I know that would be fucking going nuts.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, I mean maybe you would have coping mechanisms
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: of dealing with that, right, I guess or you do it.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's why we see like old school detectives,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: just like drunks, never sleeping like you know, just obsessing.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: And I guess that's probably why. So Within behind this door, though,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: there was another door that led to a small closet area.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: So this closet area seemed as if it were almost
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: a makeshift makeshift bathroom with toilet paper hanging in the wall.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: But the thing that stood out the most within these
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: two rooms was a single piece of paper that was
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: fixed to the wall. It was a list of rules,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: and the rules raid read as such. Number one, I
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: must always be ready to service my master. I must
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: be clean, brushed, and made up with my cell neat.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Number two, I must never speak unless spoken to, unless
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: in bed. I must never look my master in the eye,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: but must keep my eyes downcast. Number three, I must
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: never show my disrespect, either verbally or silent. I must
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: never cross my arms or legs in front of my body,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: or clench my fists, and unless eating, must always keep
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: my lips parted. Four I must be obedient completely and
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: at all things I must obey immediately and without question
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: or comment. Number five. I must always be quiet when
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: locked in my cell. Number six. I must remember and
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: obey any additional rules told to me. I must understand
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: that any disobedience, any pain, trouble, or annoyance caused by
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: me to my master will be grounds for punishment.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, I'm feeling my glass of wine here.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, rightfully, So see why I said it was good
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: lubricant for research on this, Because holy.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Fat person is a nasty motherfucker. Yeah, that is like
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: a I cannot even fathom someone being able to just
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: come up with this list, like you are literally out
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: of your mind. I'm sorry, but like you are, Yeah,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: and be to just be in that position and be
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: having someone like doing, Oh my god, I just can't.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I can't even like that. I just yeah, I'm about
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: to say things.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't if you want to say it, well.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I'm just like I don't even know, Like I would
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: almost just want to die.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: To be honest, I can't blame you in that situation.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: I really can't. Yeah, Like the list of demands, they're
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: brutal to read. I like, don't get me wrong, it
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: took me two takes to get through that, and it
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: was clear that Leonard was holding these individuals hostage here,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt about that, right, But the questions are
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: who for how long? And what was their fate in
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the end, because they're not in there now, all of
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: this is still unclear.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Gosh, what a disgusting piece of shit.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Now, Unfortunately, further processing and forensic analysis of this room
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: in this shed yielded no evidence as far as fingerprints
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: or DNA really had been meticulously cleaned top two bottom.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: That's like, really, like, how would you even do that?
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: You think you'd miss something?
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: I know, But no, there's nothing.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Now, the search of the cabin also because we're in
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: the shed here right now, we're going back to the
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: cabin itself. The cabin also revealed some disturbing new evidence.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Among all the possessions, items, and clutter inside, the investigators
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: found a spew series of videotapes. Now, noting back to
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: last episode, we discussed the bed in the cabin having
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: holes in the posts floor seeming like they were used
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: to tie or hold a person down there on the bed,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: and there was also a video camera that was set
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: up pointed to the bed, So investigators were curious what
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: they might actually find on these videotapes. Were they used
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: in the camera, Were they potentially used in a crime,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: or they just you know, someone's harmless sex tape. Who knows.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: We don't know, right, but the investigators are like, there
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: could potentially be some damning evidence on this.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, I think we know at this point.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So they played them and none of them were
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: prepared for what they found.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Oh no.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: On these tapes, it showed women being held and bound.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: They were often sitting in a chair with Leonard explaining
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: to them that they are going to be held and
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: that they are going to do as he pleases. He
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: isn't the only one, though, man quickly identified as Charles
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: ng is also present on these tapes. Now, Charles is
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: the man who ran in the very first episode from
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: after those shoplifting charges and he took off.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: And so they don't have him at this point, right.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: They currently don't. He's on the run. This is only
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: three days later after that he took off, he got away.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: They had Leonard, he gave them Charles his name, wrote
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that suicide letter to his ex wife, took the cyanide tablet.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: And now they're investigating the cabin and they found proof
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: to tie Charles to this cabin as well. Now on
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: these tapes. Wow, because before Charles was just a shot
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: uplifting friend, right, you know, it.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Just doesn't even seem real. It doesn't even seem real
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: that someone would be could like even do something like
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: this to another humor.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: Oh well, I haven't even really described what they're actually
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: doing on these tapes.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I know, but my mind is obviously going. But
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: even just to capture someone, to sit them down and
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: to tell them this is what they're doing now, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: it's just like shit.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: These women are being told to obey and do as
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: they're told, things like they're going to cook, they're going
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: to clean, and they're going to fuck when called upon. Wow,
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: they do not wish to do these things, then they
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: will swiftly be killed and that You can watch some
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: of these tapes. There's not a whole lot of it
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: out there, but there are some clips and it's fucking it.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Got this, I know, But I think that they were
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: released probably to the public and like for case purposes
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: or evidence purposes, I don't know, but this leads me
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: to tie this case in a similar fashion to the
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: toy box skin.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was I think I did the toy box killer. Yeah,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I've never been the same since that day that I
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: researched that. Holy shit.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, continuing in these videos, their clothes that these
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: women are being worn, that they're wearing, they're being cut
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: off from their bodies with a knife. So the women
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: are sitting there, they're tied, the cameras rolling on them.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: They're being told you will do these things or you
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: will die. And then one of them walks up and
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: begins cutting their clothes off with a knife, leaving them nude,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: or at least mostly nude, and at the mercy of
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: their captors. Now, one woman is seen asking for her
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: baby repeatedly.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, are you kidding me?
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: But Leonard tells her it's not her baby anymore and
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: he has given it away.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, so like a new mom. Yeah, that is
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: a new level of evil.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: It is well, I mean, the fucking psychological torture alone
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: in this is unfathomable. So yeah. Now. Processing of the
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: property outside the buildings, too, brought up more overwhelming amounts
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: of concerning evidence. There were several burial sites found where
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: possessions from missing individuals were stashed and buried, all of
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: which were of course taken into evidence. So many of
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: them were like, hey, you know, there's some like loose
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: kind of dirt here. It's obviously something's been buried. And
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: there's things like you know, clothing or whatever being buried,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: possessions from like people's homes buried, whatever it was. There's
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of shit being buried in several different sites
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: of property, Like I can I can't even get into
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: the amount of shit that was found. It's just it's overwhelming.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: So like they went about hiding or going about hiding things,
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: but not really too. I mean, I guess if they
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: knew people were going to be on the property, like
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: they aren't police or whatever, they'd end up finding this thing.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: So they hit it, but not very well really.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: They hit it. Whereas if no one knows, no one's
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: going to know. Yeah, but is for someone to stumble
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: upon one little thing and the whole the gas up,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: which is exactly why Leonard had the backup of the
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Cyanide tablet, because all it takes is one fucking piece
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to fall out of place, yea, the whole thing comes
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: crumbling down, and that one fucking thing was then being
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: stopped in a shoplifting.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Event well, yeah, and he knew. I feel like you
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: can only be a monster for so long. Like these
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: people do generally end up getting caught. Like it's just
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: it's not something that they get away with most people,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: I don't think, right like you do get caught eventually.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, these guys are definitely about to get caught.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: So on the property outside Buried there was also the
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: discovery of two bodies that were wrapped in sleeping bags
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: and found. They both seem to be gagged and handcuffed
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: and were later identified as Lonnie Bond Junior and Robin
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Scott Stapley now Robin or sorry Lonnie was the boyfriend
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: of Brenda O'Connor. Together they lived lived in a cabin
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: nearby Leonard's cabin. They along with their two year old son,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: had been missing for about two months. Oh man, now
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Robin Scott Stapeley who went by the name Scott, so
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: I'll be referring to him as as Scott. Now Scott
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: was also a neighbor of Leonards and a friend of his,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: and he had been missing for about two months as well.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Now Scott's ID was found in Leonard's possession already. In fact,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: while he was still alive because when he first talked
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: to the officers and he tried to identify himself and
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: gave the ID that he did not match. That was
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: the ID he gave. Okay, I remember from first.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, it's surprising that there they're like people that
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: are like neighbors and close by and stuff.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's the thing too, it's you have like
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: you can you only have so many neighbors, right, Neighbors
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: are missing here, neighbors are missing there. How did he
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: not get questioned about this yet or any search come, like,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, really that's like too close to home.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So the whole grounds on this property were being
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: combed for more remains. With the discovery of two bodies, Like, okay,
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: we have two grave sites here, two people who are buried,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: two people who are killed and buried. There's got to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: be some more, Like what are the odds of it
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: just being these two that we'veore stumbled across. There's got
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: to be some more remains. Though no intact bodies were uncovered,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: the amount of remains that did come to the surface
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: was staggering. Now, as I already mentioned, there were burned
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: sights in the property. It was obvious that remains were
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: being disposed of in other ways other than just burials. Now,
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: especially since cadaver dogs had also uncovered a single solo bone,
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: they knew the chances of them finding more bone fragments.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: It was basically a shot in the dark. But it's like,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: hit that wall with this dart in the dark, you're
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: going to right, It's like, yes, it's just there's no
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: doubt in their mind, and they were, of course right.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: So many people were scouring every inch of this property
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: on their hands and knees during the investigation, raaking through
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the grass and dirts with their bare hands looking for
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: bone fragments. As a result, hundreds and I mean hundreds
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: of bone fragments were discovered in various sizes, from the
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: size of a nickel or dime to that of like
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: a chicken bone or even a little bit bigger. And
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: it all added up to over ten pounds of bone
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: fragments that were collected.
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: Hey, they believed would just have discovered around five different victims,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: but estimates and how many there actually were on the
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: property ran as high as a potential count of twenty
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: to twenty five.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Oh man, okay, I knew it was going to be high,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: but that's high.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is that just.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Like the way you described that too. Just like so,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's like done an organized fashion
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: and stuff, but just like so frantic, right, like just
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: searching for whatever pieces and bones and stuff that you
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: can find, Like, oh.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: My, well, that's what they're doing. And I'm pretty sure
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: in something like this, like they're quite literally doing like
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: an excavation, right, Like it's think like Jurassic Park, they
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: do a grid fashion and it's like here's your grid
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: like search, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly what they
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: were doing because they were they were going through it
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: with their hands.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So and you feel like there could even be
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: things deeper or something too or write.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Oh very possible. I mean, how can you fully excavate
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: like a third of an acre to like you don't
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: know how deep and where what?
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: I don't even know if you can really.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: No, And even if you do, it's going to take
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: so long unless you're using equipment, which is just going
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to ruin the site and you're not going to find
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: anything anyways. Right, you have to do it by hand,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: you have to do it carefully, you have to do
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: it slowly. Now investigators knew that they had to find Charles.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: At this point, he was no longer just a shoplifter.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: There was video proof that tied him to the disappearance
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: of several individuals, and he was quickly put at the
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: top of the I'm sorry, I put on the top
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: ten FBI's most wanted list. Now. Thankfully because of this,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: there was quite a bit of news and media coverage
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: on the case, specifically around his name of course, right,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: but there was a lot spreading both nationwide and worldwide,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: and authorities were able to rely in the public's help
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: in locating him. Soon, a witness reported seeing Charles get
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: on a bus and headed for Toronto, Canada. Now, as
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: I mentioned in last one, he did have a citizenship
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: in Canada, which made it very easy for him to
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: flee the country.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Right. I was just like, go away, we don't want
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: you here.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: So authorities were able to learn that Charles had a
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: sister who lived in Toronto, Okay, and they believe that,
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: of course he's probably going to head there seek some
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: refuge with his family hide out, right, But after watching
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: outside her house for several days and nights, it was
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: clear that he did not intend heading there because he
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: never showed up.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, yeah, I don't get her involved in this, Shita.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: So after trying to find him, tracking him down, the
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: trail went cold and it left investigators wondering where he went.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, they knew it was only
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a matter of time until he resurfaced.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm. Well yeah, when you're at the point where
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: you have this many people looking for you, you know
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: it's going to happen exactly.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: Like, you can't stay hidden forever, and the only way
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: to do so is like you're going to like a
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: third world country or something like that. And like if
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: you're on FBI's most wanted list right now, like good
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: luck flying or you know, totally now. Approximately one month later,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: oh that long one month?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, I don't even know what's in one month.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming he's found, but geez, that's a long time.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: That's a long time, you think.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought he would have been found like a
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: couple of days.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well it was one month later in Calgary, Alberta.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, he's close a well close to us.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I mean.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you need a point of reference for anyone listening
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: out there used to wear Edmonton.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, close to where we live. We don't live in Edmonton,
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: but like the province next to this, Alberta.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're about an eight nine hour drive away from Calgary, Alberta.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: But anyways, in Calgary. About a month later, a young
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: boy was riding his bike through a park. He was
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: playing and enjoying the great outdoors like any kid in
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: the eighties would right now, As he explored the area,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: he came across a tent shelter set up in a
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: forested section of the park, and there amongst it, the
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: boy spotted a man. Now he recognized this man from
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: wanted posters that he had seen.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Whoa what an observant little boy, it was Charles Ing.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Huh Yeah, how old was this kid? Sorry? Ten or so?
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly. He was just a young boy.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, for some reason I was ink in ten,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: but like, gosh, he could have.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Been ten, he could have been thirteen. I'm not a
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: certain age like a.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Kid would even you know know.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but after seeing this guy and recognizing him, the
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: boy quickly hopped back on his bike and took and
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: he reported what he seen to officers.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, get the fuck out of there, man, No kidding, right.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: So officers then had the boy lead him back to
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: where he spotted Charles, and so he did. But by
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: the time they arrived back in the park and he
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: showed them where this little tent setup was, Charles was gone.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: He had bandoned his setup and fled. Unfortunately, he slipped
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: through their fingers.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, still hey, they were that damn close.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: But as I mentioned earlier, in this case, Charles was
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: a kleptomaniac, meaning he could not help but steal, and
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: his downfall came when he attempted to shoplift once again.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: It was the exact same day that that young boy
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: had spotted him. Charles entered the department store in Calgary, Alberta.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: On July sixth, nineteen eighty five, Charles was caught stealing
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: a can of salmon and some few other items, reportedly
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: from a Hudson Bay store in Calgary.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: He needed supplies and food, I'm sure exactly.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: A security guard confronted him about what he was stealing,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: and Charles didn't like this, right of course, he tried
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: to do as he did before, tried to run, but
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: the guards stopped him, and during this confrontation, Charles pulled
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: out a gun in an attempt to gain his freedom
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: and the upper hand. The guard, though, wasn't gonna let
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: this happen. Wow, Yeah, he didn't let him get away,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: and in the struggle, Charles managed to shoot the guard
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: in the hand, but despite the injury, the guards still
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: continued to put up a fight and managed to subdue
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Charles with the help of other store employees and bystanders
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: on scene until police arrived.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: That is just like a one of a kind security guard,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: like kid, badass of the day, Like really just went
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: above and beyond there.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Right shot in the hand and he's like you motherfucker.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, because I feel like i'd be like, oh
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: my gosh, mynd and he's just like, yeah, go time you.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Get done fucked up now boy. So yeah, badass of
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: the day right there to that security No kidding now.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Once Calgary police arrived at the scene, they arrested Charles,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: who provided a false name, of course, but the authority
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: soon realized who he actually was, so he was now
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: held in custody in Canada. But before he was sent
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: to the US to face a courtroom, he first had
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: to serve time in Canadian jail for shoplifting and also
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: assault charges, which would eventually us be four and a
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: half years that he would be imprisoned in Canada. Okay,
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: now before you was extradited to the US. This time,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: this four and a half years allowed prosecutors to build
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: an intense case against Charles. They meticulously scoured their evidence
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: and reports. Talk about the amount of evidence that there were.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: It was ridiculous at one point the I'll talk later,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: when the case had actually had to move from a
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: court house to different court house and they had to
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: actually hire like a like a semi truck to like
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: move all the files and really like it was in
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: fucking tense.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: Huh. So I was almost half thinking too that he
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: would have committed suicide as well. So it's a bit
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: surprising that he is like about facing all this stuff.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: No, he's spineless in a completely different way. And trust me,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: we'll touch on it. Okay, Yeah, No, Leonard is spineless
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: in the fact that he doesn't want to face it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: But Charles is spineless.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: So the prosecutor prosecution team scoured the evidence, they built
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the team, they readied themselves for the day that Charles
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: would be extradited back to the US and beyond US
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: US soil. But four and a half years is a
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: long time, and Charles did the same. He educated himself
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: on everything he could do to evade the legal justice system.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: Now there is a little bit going on. I'm not
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: going to dive into the issues on being extradited from
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Canada to USA because Canada actually held them. They didn't
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: want to give him up because certain certain charges and
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: certain what results the conviction and stuff. But long story short,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: both sides were ready for a war in this courtroom
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: when he was finally extradited and a series of intense
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: legal battles was about to commence, resulting in one of
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the most extensive and prolonged criminal proceedings in Californian history.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: That just makes me angry right there, though, because it's
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: just such a waste of money.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: And you'll see why Charles is fucking cowardly and spineless
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: in his own way, because he played dirty and he
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: did whatever he could to delay his trial. Of course,
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Now why though, is fairly important, as I was just
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: mentioning earlier with the extradition process, is he Charles facing
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: these charges? It meant that if convicted, he would be
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: given the death sentence. Okay, those were because of the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: charges were so much. Yeah, that was going to be
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the conviction. It was no doubt about it, which is
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: why Canada was hesitant to give them back to the
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: United States because there was a law prohibiting it unless
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: the crime exceeded a certain amounts. There were some legal
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: stuff going on back and forth, but it was like, Okay,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: yeah he did exceed it, so go for it sort
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: of Thingeah. So, yeah, he played dirty because he knew
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: he was facing the death sentence. So delaying the trial
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: could literally mean life or death for this man, right,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: so he did everything in his power to drag it
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: the fuck on. He employed a variety of tactics, but
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: one of his primary strategies was to frequently change his
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: legal counsel just as the trial was about to occur.
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Seriously, he would.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Fire his attorneys and then he'd have to get new ones,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: and then the new attorneys would have to learn the case,
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: and as I mentioned, there was like truckloads of case files,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: so it'd be up to two two and a half
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: years that they would have to prepare themselves for the
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: new trial again.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: WHOA seriously and.
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: Simply firing his attorneys, he would buy himself two to
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: two and a half years of life.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: Yes, holy free, free.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: And he did this multiple times. He cycled through multiple
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: attorneys and lots of times he's like, yeah, they're not
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: representing me well enough, so I need to get rid
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: of them.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: You know. Okay, that doesn't make that's not fair though,
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: because I could see maybe once, but if that happens again,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: it's like, no, well it's not allowed.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: It happened a few times.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: That's not okay.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, like I said, they had to develop
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: new strategy, familiarizers themselves with the case before they're ready
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: to go again. Now, another tactic he used to delay
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: his tryout was filing an extensive number of legal motions.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: His defense team submitted numerous pre trial motions, including requests
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: to suppress evidence, challenges to the admissibility of certain pieces
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: of evidence, and motions for the change of venue. So
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: one of the things of change of venue, because I said,
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I had to change venue and load up and like
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: freaking trucks, right, So he would say, like, you know,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: many people, because of the media coverage, this is a
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: bias jury. So we need to go somewhere else, which
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: again worked and delayed the trial.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: Wow, this is mind blowing. I'm actually like, like I
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but a
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: little bit like surprise for his will to live, I know,
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: because like he no matter what, like he is going
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: to just be spending the rest of his life in jail, right,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: I know. And it's so different than like his partner
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: and crime there.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I know he was not facing Both of
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: them did not want to face the justice that would
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: come down on them. In their own way, yeah, they
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: did not want to face the consequences of their actions. No,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: all plead opposite ways, but in the they're doing the
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: same thing. Now. Each of these motions required court hearings,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: legal arguments, significance along the process of the case. Like
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: these combined efforts by Charles to manipulate the legal system contributed, sorry,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: contributed to an extraordinary length of time it took to
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: bring this case trial and ultimately to verdict. So finally, though,
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: enough was enough and a judge wasn't letting him get
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: new attorneys or anything anymore. Just as you mentioned, the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: trial had to begin and in October of nineteen ninety
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: eight in Orange County, California, thirty eighteen, let me say
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: it again, thirteen years after his initial arrest, Charles was
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: finally or sitting in the court facing justice. Thirteen years
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: he managed to delay it.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Oh man, I can't, I can't even that is just now.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: During the trial, the prosecution presented an overwhelming amount of
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: evidence against him, including the chilling videotapes that showed him
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: actively participating in the torture and abuse of the victims.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: These tapes were crucial in demonstrating his direct involvement in
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: these crimes. Now they told of how he and Leonard
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: would capture people and of course families as well. They
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: would kill the men and the children, but leave the
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: women alive to use them in the dubbed Project Miranda.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: They abused, raped, tortured, and eventually killed each and every
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: one of them, humiliating them until they had their fill,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: their sick fill of fun, only to kill them and
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: dispose of them on the cabin property. His defense, of course,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: shifted the blame onto Leonard Lake, saying that Charles was
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: a follower who had been manipulated and dominated by Leonard,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: arguing that he had participated in the crimes only under
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: the influence of coercion. They painted Leonard as the mastermind
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: behind the gruesome Axe, which I mean, he very well
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: seemed to be by all accounts if you ask me.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: In my opinion, Leonard seemed to be the one who
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: put this all together. It's his property. He built this cabin,
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: he had this project. Miranda was obsessed with book. Sure,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: he might be the mastermind.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: But this is too bad to to care really who
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: the mastermind was.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: No, it doesn't matter. He's still involved.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, to be involved in something this brutal is yeah. Yeah.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: So.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: They also suggested that Charles was merely an unwilling participant
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: caught up in Leonard's horrific schemes. Right now. The prosecution, however,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: effectively countered these claims by pointing to the evidence, particularly
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: the video proof that showed Charles not only participated willingly,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: but also took sadistic pleasure from the acts he committed
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: on tape.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's very clear this guy is also a
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: ginormous piece of shit.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: Oh he is.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Luckily, the jury was not swayed by the defense arguments
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: at all, and they rejected the attempt to minimize his
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: responsibility by pinning the Blaine solely on Leonard. That was
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: not the case. It's not just Leonard. You two are
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: at fault and as a result, on February twenty fourth,
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, Charles NG was convicted of eleven counts
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: of murder as well as charges of kidnapping, conspiracy, and burglary.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Charles NG was sentenced to death in March of nineteen
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: ninety nine. Since his conviction, Charles has done everything he
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: can still to appeal that conviction.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, has this person not wasted enough time
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: and money? I am getting just pissed sitting here listening
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: to this.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: Thankfully, none of his appeals have succeeded. As far as
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: I'm aware, Charles NG is still alive. He remains on
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: death row in San Quentin State Prison in California.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Huh. You know this is very interesting because also one
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: of our plans is very upset about this too, because
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: we have a vine that's like this whole time, been
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: like looking like it's alive as it's trying to like
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: vine onto something else. It's quite creepy. Actually, I've been
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: watching and this is I've been getting upset.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: It's just feeding off the emotions.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but it's creeping me out, and this
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: whole case is creeping me out. And damn well that
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: pretty well is the case. Okay, Well, I do have
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: a question, and this is me really I should in
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: all this, but like places in the States still do
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: actively do the death penalty.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if they still convict of
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: the death penalty, but I mean, if someone has the sentence,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: I think they can they can still follow it out.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: I would have to do the research on that, which
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I haven't, so I can't speak.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, because I feel like at this point
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: he's probably he's probably going to just die of like
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: natural causes I guess.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Most likely of old age or whatever it is.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant, Like, yeah, well.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: The last thing to do on this case, because that
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: is that's the case, But the last thing to do.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: Here is the confirmed list of victims of Leonard Lake
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: and Charles ng and the confirmed list is as follows.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: The Ubbs family who met Leonard, threw an ad to
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: rent out their video equipment, and never was seen from again.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Seriously, so that is.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: Harvey Dubbs twenty nine years old, Deborah Dubbs thirty three
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: years old and their son Sean Dubbs, who was one
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: year old.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Wow, just to rent out their equipment.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Eh. Yeah. There was the Bond and O'Connor family who
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: were neighbors of Leonard Lake. There was Lonnie Bond Junior,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: who was twenty seven years old, Brenda O'Connor who was
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: nineteen years old, and their son, Lonnie Bond the Third,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: who was two years old. There was the couple Michael
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Carroll who was twenty three years old and a friend
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: of Charles Ing and his girlfriend Kathleen Allen, who was
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: eighteen years old. There was Paul Kostner who was thirty
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: nine years old who was selling his car. Oh no,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Robin Scott Stapley twenty six years old who was a
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: friend and neighbor of Leonard Lake. Randy Johnson thirty four
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: years old who was a former co worker of Charles Ing,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: Donald Lake thirty two years old. Who is who is
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Leonard Lake's younger brother, Clifford Pertineu who is twenty four
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: years old, who's a former coworker of Charles Ng.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, did you see one of these is a
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: brother related?
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Like Leonard Lake's younger brother Donald Lake.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Holy shit. Okay, yep, so that's a list. That's a list,
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: huh that we know of that I almost like guarantee
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: you there's more.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, luckily, some of those photos of the twenty
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: one individuals that was found, those women who were found
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: inside the cabin, some of them have been identified and
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: are safe and alive thankfully.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, no kidding.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know the names of who. I just I
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: was watching a documentary that was actually a good resource
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: for my case, so thank you. Shout out to that documentary.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: But it's they talked about how yes, some of the
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: women were identified and they were found safe, though I
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: don't know how many, and I don't know who, huh.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: And they didn't they just like didn't discriminate too. It
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: was just like kids whatever, Like they just didn't give
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: a fuck who they were killing.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Yep. But when they had a woman, they held them
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: and they did what they wanted.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: And then and they did so they did what they
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: wanted with this this lady, thinking that they would probably
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: like let her go right Oh no, well that was
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: the threat though, like you do what you want or
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: you let us do what you want, we want, or
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: you get killed. So then she would let them do that,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: but then she'd get killed anyway.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: As I don't know some of the video that I watched,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: the ultimatum was, we will treat you as nicely as
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: we can within the threshold of being a prisoner, or
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: you die.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Oh man, Okay, that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: Was the ultimatum, and I think I might have quoted
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: them actually pretty pretty close on that. Within the threshold
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: of being a prisoner, I think is exactly how they
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: put it. Geez or yeah, death.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: Kind of sick bastard you have to be to do
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: this to somebody.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Well, and even worse too. Leonard had plans to expand
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: his bunker and everything he wanted to do, like an
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: underground system. Because there is a video that I watched
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: of him. I think it's about fifteen minutes long, just
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: like a vlog of him kind of talking, and he
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: talks about how he wants to expand this and stuff
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: and have this underground like network and just nasty. Yeah.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I wonder if his ex knew.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: I kind of feel like, oh, she fucking knew.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: You think she did?
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: She knew? Why would she kick them off? After the
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: videotapes Wow.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: She was like, shit's getting real here and I don't
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: really know what the fuck's going on, So like, you
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: guys need to leave.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Why would he have written that fucking letter.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: I can't even remember what the hell of letter had said.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I got to go back to my other document here
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: and pull.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know if she would have known to this extent.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, she fucking knew you. I know she knew. Well,
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, but like I cannot see
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: her not knowing. It doesn't make sense to me that
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: she would not fucking know.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Huh, I don't know.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the suicide note or the letter he wrote
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: to her, goes as quote, Dear Lynn, I love you,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: I forgive you. Freedom is better all sorry, freedom is
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: better than all else. I leave it up to you
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: to tell the law about the horrors of this house.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: She fucking knew?
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, huh. I mean anyone that I feel
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: like knew anything about any of this shit is slightly
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: guilty here.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: Oh no kidding, I agree, But it's.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Like, how could you know something? Like there's just I
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: don't care, like who the fuck that you are? Like
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: you could be, like you could be you my best friend,
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: I would if I knew something this extent, I don't
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: think I could physically keep that in and like let
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: that be happening. There's just no way. I don't think.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: I don't care who the fuck is Huh, I don't know.
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: But yeah, she was not charged or convicted.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Wow, no, interesting, No, she.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Got away she I mean, there's no no evidence that
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: she did anything.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: But what did he have to forgive her for?
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: Hey, I don't know, leaving him? Maybe I don't know.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: It could be some mundane, stupid thing like that, or
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: maybe they were just recently arguing over who fucking ate
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: the last twinkie? And he's like, I forgive you it, socin,
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: who knows, I.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Would never forgive you for that. I actually haven't end
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: a twinkie and I can't even remember the last I
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: made a twinkie.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: That's probably a good thing.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: But anyway, my blood is just like boiling, and now
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: we have to go to bed. Yeah, it's good luck
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: to us.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: That's one way to end a night.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, no kidding, I gotta.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna polish off this bottle of wine before bed,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: because god dang, I need it.
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: Hmmm. I mean sometimes I sometimes think this keeps you
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: up at night? How can we end podcast on like
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: a more fun note? But fuck, there's just no way.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Man, No, how do you and like, how do you
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: end a true crime pod podcast on a positive note?
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: Me?
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: I can't know, well because I almost am like gosh,
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: like good luck to all you out there, like it's
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: just like scary what kind of people are here? And
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: also I think I'm keeping my vehicle for life because
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm going to be able to
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: sell a used vehicle ever. Again, you can't.
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Wash your car, you can't sell your car.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Like, I'm just like literally me, when I'm eighty years old,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be living in a fucking bubble. Probably hopefully,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: we can only hope.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I'd be down for that, You and me
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: in a bubble with huskies and chickens and a cat.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, that sounds lovely. Would have to also have like
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: a vegetable garden and stuff for like food and stuff.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Right, we got to start in apiary too, so we
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: can make need.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Oh man, yes, sounds like the life. We're gonna be
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: like little hermits.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Man, Oh, I'm.
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: Still releasing podcasts or.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: No, probably we're gonna be fun eighty years old, little
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: hermits in the bush and just talking about some fucking
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: horrific shit that people are doing out there in the world.
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we always at the end of this podcast,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: we always just go off here. But because we were
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: talking the other day, I was like, well, how long
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: can you be like a wedding photographer? Like how old
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: can you be? Kind of thing? And then we were
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: talking how old can you be like a true crime
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: podcaster and stuff, and like physically probably quite some time.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Your voice would probably change a bit, but not like,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: not until you're probably like your seventies. I'm thinking, yeah,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: but then you were almost like that, it's probably really cool.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: People might really like that.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I mean picture just old Ben and Nicole just sipping
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: some wine, sipping some drinks and just talking about true crime.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: I think that'd be awesome.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it might be.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: My name's Ben and you're listening to wickeding Grim true
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: crime podcast.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Like, well, I feel like too, say, when we're eighty,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: shit's probably gonna be way worse in the world, to Matt,
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: and then we'll be like back in our day, they
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: did they only did this, you know, like, gosh, that
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: is that's a dark thought right there.
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we thought John Wayne Casey was bad.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Now this bullshit, Oh Lord help us.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really going off today apparently, and we're gonna
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: end this here. We're gonna stop rambling. We appreciate you
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: guys listening, especially if you got through all this this
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: at the end. We hopefully you guys enjoy this though,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Like I do want to take a quick moment to
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: note these these rants at the end, like I enjoy
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: just sitting here and yapping with you about this case.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Hopefully you guys enjoy it too, because it's almost it
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: is kind of like the way the way we unravel
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: after it all, we vent a bit, we get some
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: more laughs in, and it's it's that unravel moment.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: So maybe we do kind of end it sometimes in
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: a positive way, and we do. Right, people are now
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: picturing us in our eighties talking about you know, yeah,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: that's actually kind of a nice thought.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so hopefully you guys like it. We really enjoyed
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: doing this, so thank you for being here, Thank you
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: for supporting our show. We are an indie podcast. It's
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: us who do everything. We don't have any overarching person
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: overseeing it. It's us. I was gonna say it's just us,
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: but Nicle gave me crap last time.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: For and some people agreed. I'm very behind on the
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Spotify comments, and some people agree when you say just
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: like it's not always like a good.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Thing, well it's not always a good thing. But I'm
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: not saying in a negative context.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Though, I know, but we're going to change that language,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: I think a bit.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, put it in this way. I'm not saying
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: it's just us. I'm saying it's just us. There's no
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: one else. It's us. To get that, but let's just
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: not catch Okay, Well, it's Nicole and I only doing this.
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: We've got this. There's no one else, and you guys
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: are here supporting us, and because of that, we appreciate it.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: So thank you very much. If you'd like, don't forget
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: to follow all the good.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Stuff, you know, Yeah, you know, I like how you're
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: talking to the camera that's not on. But anyway, until Friday,
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Until Friday, stay wicked.