Latest / The Future of Luxury Podcast with Dr Daniel Langer / #2 - Jonathan Levine: Founder of Master & Dynamic on Shaping the Future of Luxury Audio Experiences

Transcript

#2 - Jonathan Levine: Founder of Master & Dynamic on Shaping the Future of Luxury Audio Experiences · The Future of Luxury Podcast with Dr Daniel Langer

• 0:07
  So welcome, Jonathan.
• 0:08
  It's an incredible pleasure to have you on the podcast.
• 0:12
  And, I remember our first meeting many years ago.
• 0:16
  I think it was actually before just before the pandemic when,
• 0:20
  when we were I think we met first in London,
• 0:23
  at a joint event, and then I invited you to,
• 0:26
  my university to do a presentation with my
• 0:29
  with my students.
• 0:30
  And I think then came the pandemic.
• 0:32
  And then we met a few months later for the next time.
• 0:34
  So every time we meet, it's a great pleasure.
• 0:37
  And, I'm very, very proud to have you on on the podcast today.
• 0:41
  And maybe to start,
• 0:42
  tell us a little bit about you and also about Master and
• 0:45
  Dynamic.
• 0:46
  Yeah.
• 0:46
  Well, it's good to be, speaking to you, unfortunately,
• 0:50
  virtually, but, we'll see each other again in person.
• 0:53
  So, I'm Jonathan Levine.
• 0:55
  I'm the founder and CEO of New York City based
• 1:00
  luxury audio company, Master and Dynamic.
• 1:03
  I started the company,
• 1:06
  I started thinking about the company in twenty thirteen.
• 1:08
  I launched it in, twenty fourteen.
• 1:12
  I've never been in audio before.
• 1:14
  I've never been in the luxury business before.
• 1:16
  I'm a serial consumer products entrepreneur,
• 1:20
  and I got the idea to create MasterDynamics
• 1:23
  from, my two sons,
• 1:26
  who were very into music.
• 1:27
  One of them was a DJ. The other one was a videographer.
• 1:31
  And,
• 1:32
  you know, that's where the you know,
• 1:34
  this is also at a time when they were using Beats.
• 1:38
  Beats was taking over the world,
• 1:40
  and I just saw a different opportunity.
• 1:42
  And, you know,
• 1:43
  I think part of the success is that we did not try and become the next Beats.
• 1:47
  We we took a very different path.
• 1:51
  Yeah.
• 1:51
  I remember that, you told me the the first time we met
• 1:56
  how critical design is for you in in that not only design,
• 2:00
  but also excellent audio.
• 2:02
  But tell us a little bit about the design aspect of master dynamic.
• 2:06
  Yeah. It's still what drives us.
• 2:09
  I I tell people all the time, and it's,
• 2:12
  one hundred percent true.
• 2:13
  Everything we do, every product we do
• 2:16
  starts with design.
• 2:18
  And then we layer in all of our technologies,
• 2:21
  whether it be software, whether it be acoustics,
• 2:25
  and other other ideas.
• 2:29
  But, again, it all and materials,
• 2:31
  but it always starts with design.
• 2:32
  And, you know, I think, I remind people that, you know,
• 2:37
  in the history of of wearables,
• 2:40
  of which headphones are probably one of the first
• 2:43
  technology wearables ever invented,
• 2:46
  the key to being successful in wearables is you have to design
• 2:50
  them so people want to wear them.
• 2:52
  If people like anything else, whether it be a a watch, glasses,
• 2:58
  sometimes people forget that.
• 2:59
  So we've been very fortunate to be very focused on that, and,
• 3:03
  it's it's still our, you know, it's still our North Star.
• 3:06
  Mhmm.
• 3:07
  And, you know, I have I have my own pair of,
• 3:10
  MW seventy fives here in my hand,
• 3:13
  and the I think since since we first met,
• 3:18
  I had the pleasure to to,
• 3:21
  use your headphones and your earphones
• 3:24
  practically every day.
• 3:26
  So the earphones are my go to earphones,
• 3:29
  when I have meetings,
• 3:30
  and I I use them practically on every meeting.
• 3:33
  And these guys, I really use when I want to listen to,
• 3:37
  you know, music here at the house or especially on on a plane.
• 3:41
  And I can only, you know,
• 3:44
  confirm what you said.
• 3:45
  The the design aspect is just incredible.
• 3:48
  The durability is incredible. The sound is incredible.
• 3:51
  So every time I wear them, it's an experience.
• 3:54
  Thank you.
• 3:55
  I we appreciate your, being a long term, fan and user.
• 3:59
  And, by the way, that's, you know,
• 4:01
  that's part of our our marketing strategy is when we
• 4:05
  have people like you,
• 4:08
  using our product and being seen in public, it, it creates,
• 4:12
  interest in the products for sure.
• 4:15
  Mhmm.
• 4:16
  And one thing that, that I wanted to ask you, also,
• 4:19
  you know, since you also just told us that, you know,
• 4:23
  as a serial entrepreneur,
• 4:24
  you did a lot of things more maybe in the consumer goods sector,
• 4:27
  and then luxury was something maybe new for you for as a category.
• 4:33
  What is for you luxury,
• 4:34
  and how do you see the luxury world evolving?
• 4:39
  What is luxury?
• 4:42
  You know, I I,
• 4:45
  you know, I didn't, you know, I probably without knowing it,
• 4:48
  I was probably a luxury consumer
• 4:52
  for a good portion of my life.
• 4:54
  It doesn't mean, that I wanted to, you know,
• 4:58
  pay for the most expensive product or the most,
• 5:03
  widely distributed in products.
• 5:04
  I really wanted something that,
• 5:08
  evoked some something visceral to me,
• 5:10
  whether it be the materials, the craftsmanship,
• 5:16
  probably some of the, you know, the scarcity,
• 5:18
  this concept of discovery.
• 5:23
  And, you know,
• 5:25
  I think I I consider one of the things that I think about with
• 5:29
  luxury, and it's what I use in my own
• 5:32
  business, is the concept of effort.
• 5:35
  For me, I when I see the effort that goes
• 5:39
  into building or designing a product,
• 5:42
  whether it be a pair of shoes, sunglasses, you name it,
• 5:45
  that's the connection I have.
• 5:46
  And I think it's probably for me,
• 5:48
  it's stronger just because I'm a I'm a maker myself.
• 5:52
  To me, that's that's that's luxury. Yeah.
• 5:55
  Yeah.
• 5:56
  I love the word I love the word effort because there is also a
• 5:59
  connection with you know, typically,
• 6:01
  a lot of people say it's craftsmanship or so,
• 6:04
  but I think it's more than craftsmanship.
• 6:06
  It's kind of the it's the intentionality
• 6:09
  of creating, you know,
• 6:11
  products that really matter to to people.
• 6:13
  And I think this is also where the design aspect comes in.
• 6:17
  Yeah. I think I yep. No. No. No.
• 6:20
  I was gonna say,
• 6:20
  I think that there's a nuance between craftsmanship and and effort.
• 6:25
  Effort, I feel, is in the design
• 6:29
  process of why they why did they put that there versus here?
• 6:34
  Why, you know, why why did they do this type of stitching
• 6:37
  versus something?
• 6:39
  And and when that effort is also part of the functionality,
• 6:43
  it really you know, it it becomes very special.
• 6:46
  Yeah.
• 6:48
  And what is the inspiration for you since you just mentioned
• 6:51
  the design process for you and your team when you come up
• 6:55
  with, for example, a a new headphone?
• 6:57
  How do you get the inspiration for this?
• 7:02
  Well, you know, I think the the in the the first products that we made,
• 7:09
  you know, they were I I guess my
• 7:12
  this you know, I have a pretty big team by now,
• 7:15
  but when I first started,
• 7:18
  it was a very small team.
• 7:19
  I hired one designer. He's still with us.
• 7:22
  And I sort of gave him the the general gist of what I wanted.
• 7:27
  And and my, I my sensibility is, I guess,
• 7:30
  what some people would call industrial chic.
• 7:33
  I love,
• 7:35
  I love when I can look at something and, you know,
• 7:37
  here I'm in Paris, and I was just in London.
• 7:41
  I for me,
• 7:42
  what what I I like the sort of when I can see the history
• 7:46
  that went into something, and,
• 7:50
  I can see part of the industrial age and then how it still
• 7:55
  exists in a in the modern age.
• 7:57
  So, you know, I'm a big believer in the this idea that the future needs heritage.
• 8:02
  Mhmm.
• 8:03
  And I think that's, you know,
• 8:05
  look at the look at the microphone in front of you,
• 8:08
  you know, that you're talking into,
• 8:10
  that that that metal mesh, that recessed metal mesh,
• 8:15
  hinders back to probably the one of the some of the first microphones.
• 8:20
  It's functional, but it could also be just fabric,
• 8:22
  which would completely create a different completely
• 8:26
  different, you know, aesthetic.
• 8:28
  Right? Mhmm. Yep. Yep.
• 8:30
  So And I think maybe connected to
• 8:33
  this because both of all both of us share
• 8:37
  a passion for travel.
• 8:39
  And I know you were as you just mentioned,
• 8:41
  you're in Paris right now, and it's just been in London.
• 8:44
  I'm going to Asia, tomorrow.
• 8:46
  So for you, when you when you travel,
• 8:49
  is is travel also for you a source of inspiration?
• 8:52
  And if yes, kind of where do you or how do you get inspiration through travel?
• 8:57
  Yeah. It's a it's a huge source of inspiration.
• 9:00
  It's not just in Europe.
• 9:01
  It could be I go to, you know, a lot of different places.
• 9:07
  What is the ins you know,
• 9:08
  I I don't I never come to a city saying I
• 9:12
  want to go see that store or that museum.
• 9:17
  I like to meander.
• 9:18
  I like the the sense of adventure and stumbling on things.
• 9:24
  I look down a lot versus looking up,
• 9:27
  meaning I see things in the street, you know,
• 9:29
  in the manhole covers and and in the chains, you know,
• 9:33
  that are that are a lot that are around this church and even the stonework.
• 9:38
  I walk a lot.
• 9:40
  I run a lot, and I just try and stay very,
• 9:45
  observant.
• 9:47
  I'm constantly taking photos on my phone of things that inspire
• 9:51
  me and then going back and sketching things.
• 9:54
  And, yeah, I mean,
• 9:56
  it's it's the it's the happiest part of my I mean,
• 9:59
  I'm a I'm a very lucky and fortunate entrepreneur, but,
• 10:03
  I always tell people the the best part of my day is when I
• 10:06
  get to to work with my product team on newer existing products.
• 10:10
  Or, you know, a lot of my travels in Europe, as you know,
• 10:14
  are with my collaboration partners and being able to sit
• 10:17
  with them and create,
• 10:19
  I learned so much. You know? I learned so much.
• 10:23
  Yeah.
• 10:24
  Wonderful. No.
• 10:25
  And it's it's,
• 10:27
  it just makes me reflect also on my on my own travel,
• 10:30
  and I think what you say is so important because, for example,
• 10:33
  for me, I always love when I'm at the airports
• 10:35
  to see, for example, which luggage are people using.
• 10:38
  And then, you know, in different places in the world,
• 10:40
  you see different brands, different expressions.
• 10:43
  In some places, it's much more fashionable.
• 10:45
  In other places, much more functional.
• 10:47
  And the same when you go to restaurants or also and I think
• 10:51
  just observing people all over the world is such a you know,
• 10:55
  is is so important for for what we do and to get an
• 10:58
  understanding also for, you know,
• 11:01
  for trends and for for for also the differences in in culture.
• 11:04
  And sometimes they can be, you know,
• 11:06
  two or three countries that are close to each other,
• 11:09
  but somehow have a completely different way of expressing.
• 11:12
  Some maybe more more introspect,
• 11:14
  some much more extrovert, and so on.
• 11:16
  So I I think this is so critical.
• 11:20
  Yep. Yep. Agreed. Agreed.
• 11:23
  Talking about collaborations.
• 11:27
  So how how,
• 11:29
  important are collaborations for you,
• 11:31
  and what makes a great collaboration?
• 11:33
  Because, of course, in the luxury industry,
• 11:35
  a lot of brands are doing collaborations.
• 11:38
  So so tell us a little bit about your view on
• 11:40
  collaborations and maybe also your learnings.
• 11:44
  For sure.
• 11:44
  Well, you know, I,
• 11:48
  I've been doing collaborations
• 11:51
  since we launched, literally in twenty fourteen.
• 11:53
  We were very fortunate to be connected with,
• 11:57
  some young designers,
• 11:58
  gentlemen who had a who still have a a brand called Proenza
• 12:02
  Schuler based out of New York. We did some custom headphones.
• 12:06
  People still talk about them.
• 12:08
  And for me, you know, just to be candid,
• 12:11
  and I'm sure other entrepreneurs share this at at
• 12:14
  the start of the business.
• 12:15
  For me, it was just about, you know,
• 12:18
  borrowing brand affinity and, you know,
• 12:20
  we were we had no record you know, we we had just launched.
• 12:23
  We had zero recognition, and it was
• 12:26
  borrowing, you know, their brand their brand equity.
• 12:30
  And we did that quite frankly for, you know,
• 12:33
  I would say the first three years and did it well.
• 12:38
  Then things turned into more, you know, usually,
• 12:42
  the first collaborations were were not moneymakers and,
• 12:46
  you know, were just brand building.
• 12:48
  Then they started to generate revenue for both parties and brand building.
• 12:54
  And, you know, that be now it's turned into a very big part of our business.
• 12:59
  So so what is important in a collaboration?
• 13:02
  One is,
• 13:06
  I like to work with very different companies.
• 13:09
  I like to I believe that
• 13:13
  brands it's I think you and I have talked about this in the
• 13:15
  past that I think,
• 13:17
  the brands that I've always loved in my life and still
• 13:20
  attract my attention, old or new,
• 13:22
  are the ones that I I say,
• 13:26
  create holy shit moments, things that,
• 13:29
  you didn't expect them to do.
• 13:30
  And then when you think about it, you say, oh,
• 13:32
  that's exactly why they'd make sense,
• 13:34
  and then you love them even more.
• 13:35
  So I believe in moving around.
• 13:38
  You know, we do stuff in streetwear.
• 13:40
  We do stuff in, obviously, you know,
• 13:44
  high high luxury.
• 13:46
  We just launched a headphone, a very,
• 13:48
  very popular headphone with the luxury brand Celine.
• 13:52
  We do stuff in the automotive world.
• 13:55
  But but beyond that, the most important thing
• 14:00
  two two probably the most important things is I learned
• 14:03
  something you know,
• 14:05
  for me being able to do collaborations with all these
• 14:08
  different types of brands, many of them in luxury,
• 14:10
  it's like going to it's like getting your MBA in luxury.
• 14:14
  You get to learn so much about these brands and how they think
• 14:18
  and how they operate.
• 14:19
  So it's a great place to to learn.
• 14:22
  And then
• 14:24
  I think why our collaborations are very successful
• 14:27
  is we seldom
• 14:30
  just change the color of a product.
• 14:33
  We seldom just slap a logo on it.
• 14:35
  We really
• 14:37
  like to what I say,
• 14:38
  we like to show the effort from both companies,
• 14:41
  and we like to show the DNA of both companies.
• 14:44
  Mhmm. And that's why they're successful.
• 14:47
  Not when they're just a a master dynamic
• 14:50
  product in a different color.
• 14:53
  You know, that's not really our our our our foray.
• 14:57
  You know, that's not what we try and do.
• 14:59
  Mhmm.
• 14:59
  Yeah.
• 15:00
  Is there maybe one specific one that,
• 15:03
  you want to highlight that basically maybe underlines that a little bit?
• 15:09
  Well, you know, I think the,
• 15:14
  let me let me let me try and think.
• 15:16
  I wasn't prepared to talk about,
• 15:18
  one in particular.
• 15:19
  And some of the collaborations we don't speak about publicly
• 15:23
  even though they're public because we may not be named in
• 15:26
  that collaboration.
• 15:28
  You know, I did one recently
• 15:31
  with,
• 15:34
  he's the bassist for, the band Coldplay.
• 15:38
  His name is Guy Berriman,
• 15:41
  an amazing musician,
• 15:43
  super creative gentleman, who has lots of diverse
• 15:47
  interests in
• 15:49
  fashion.
• 15:50
  He has his own fashion brand. He has a car magazine.
• 15:53
  He's a collector of of furniture.
• 15:56
  And, and we created this first
• 15:58
  headphone, which was very successful.
• 16:00
  We leveraged our very iconic Master and
• 16:03
  Dynamic MH forty, but, you know,
• 16:06
  Guy wanted to create something that
• 16:08
  paid homage to the Apollo era and NASA.
• 16:13
  And, we, you know, sourced all these
• 16:16
  different materials, special materials, and fabrication, and,
• 16:21
  it, you know, it was a great success.
• 16:23
  And so, you know, it would have been easy for us to just
• 16:28
  change colors, but we actually really thought we we you know,
• 16:32
  I wish I had the images to show you, but, but that's, you know,
• 16:36
  that's a that's a what I call a a,
• 16:42
  an an a relatively easy collaboration for us.
• 16:45
  And then there's others where we just create a project from
• 16:48
  scratch, like the speaker we've the
• 16:51
  concrete speaker we did,
• 16:53
  the thirty five pound concrete speaker we did,
• 16:56
  with the the Arcospec David Agio, yeah, several years ago,
• 16:59
  which, you know,
• 17:01
  could be one of my favorite pieces we've ever created just because Yeah.
• 17:05
  No one ever done anything like that. So yeah.
• 17:09
  That's that's incredible.
• 17:10
  And then maybe,
• 17:12
  another topic that I found that I find fascinating in in your business,
• 17:18
  because it's a little bit different than, you know,
• 17:20
  maybe if you if you think about some some other luxury,
• 17:24
  categories, like, you know,
• 17:25
  when you think about leather goods or so,
• 17:27
  where you have a lot of technology in your products,
• 17:30
  or your products basically live also,
• 17:33
  apart from design from the technology side.
• 17:37
  What are maybe the the kind of specific challenges
• 17:40
  to create kind of a technology product and luxury,
• 17:45
  and what are the things that you need to keep in mind when
• 17:48
  you design the in in a technology product?
• 17:53
  Yeah.
• 17:54
  I think the I I and we go through this a
• 17:57
  lot because we we do a lot of technology products
• 18:01
  for and with luxury brands.
• 18:03
  And,
• 18:05
  you know, the reality is that,
• 18:09
  in my opinion,
• 18:12
  the the buyer the consumer for a luxury audio product I'm
• 18:16
  gonna say, you know, in this you're saying tech.
• 18:19
  I'm obviously, my all my products are technology
• 18:22
  products, but they're
• 18:24
  Mhmm.
• 18:24
  The luxury consumer that and that buys our products or,
• 18:29
  you know, meaning with our collaboration with luxury
• 18:31
  partners, they want I think the first thing is, obviously,
• 18:34
  they love the design, and that design incorporates,
• 18:38
  a lot of the DNA and logos from that luxury bin.
• 18:41
  The second thing is they they love the materials.
• 18:44
  It feels luxurious.
• 18:48
  The third thing is that it works really well,
• 18:52
  you know, consistently, great acoustics, great microphones.
• 18:57
  But the you know,
• 18:59
  if you make a we're not trying to make a product,
• 19:03
  that is going to be at the at the bleeding edge of newest technology.
• 19:08
  Mhmm.
• 19:09
  Not that we not that we compromise on technology,
• 19:11
  but but, you know,
• 19:13
  if they there's we have good data that
• 19:16
  says that the luxury can you know,
• 19:18
  anybody who's buying a sixteen hundred dollar pair of earphones
• 19:23
  is probably has multiple pair of AirPods as well that they
• 19:26
  have a a different relationship with or more utilitarian.
• 19:31
  And and, you know, we're,
• 19:34
  we're constantly sort of you know,
• 19:36
  sometimes we have to educate our our new partners on this,
• 19:39
  but most of them trust us that, you know,
• 19:44
  we're still making top of the you know,
• 19:46
  best in class products, but we're not we're not talking
• 19:49
  about the techno we're not screaming the technology from
• 19:52
  the from the rooftops.
• 19:55
  I I don't know if that answers the question.
• 19:57
  It's a bit it's a bit nuanced, but,
• 20:00
  you know, I yeah.
• 20:04
  Mhmm.
• 20:05
  And then if because one of the things that I noticed all the
• 20:08
  time and this is for me one of the, you know,
• 20:12
  was the game changer when I the I had the first time a master dynamic,
• 20:17
  headphone over my my ears is just how amazing they sound.
• 20:22
  And to me, the the acoustics is really what sets us apart.
• 20:25
  And, you know, and then, of course,
• 20:26
  also the noise canceling when I'm in the plane also.
• 20:29
  But,
• 20:31
  the the I I guess there's a lot of
• 20:33
  effort that goes in in the acoustic tuning
• 20:37
  and and so on.
• 20:38
  So, can you tell us a little bit about that,
• 20:41
  how you get to this absolutely incredible sound?
• 20:46
  You know, I think I I think we I mean, I I'm going into, you know,
• 20:51
  the the true part of the story is that I think we just got
• 20:55
  very lucky from the start.
• 20:57
  You know?
• 20:57
  When I started Master Dynamic,
• 21:01
  I didn't I didn't I I had a very small team.
• 21:03
  I had never built any type of audio product.
• 21:07
  I had I had success in, you know,
• 21:09
  a lot of experience in in designing and building other products.
• 21:13
  As I said, I had, you know, two music,
• 21:16
  obsessed sons.
• 21:17
  One was a DJ, young music producer,
• 21:20
  and I remember to this day,
• 21:23
  we created a playlist
• 21:25
  to tune the headphones to.
• 21:27
  And he would say, you know,
• 21:29
  this is probably twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen.
• 21:31
  He was,
• 21:34
  how old then?
• 21:34
  He was, sixteen years old maybe,
• 21:37
  and he was probably you know,
• 21:38
  it was Kanye West and Jay z and but he also
• 21:42
  added some Philip Glass, the the the musical the classic,
• 21:49
  music, composer.
• 21:52
  I think being my age,
• 21:53
  I I added some Van Morrison and some a bunch of other people,
• 21:58
  some jazz and blues.
• 21:59
  And so what we created is this very,
• 22:03
  this amazing mix of genres to tune to without knowing what
• 22:07
  the hell we were doing, quite frankly.
• 22:10
  And the first reviews came out, and,
• 22:13
  a lot of the reviewers said that couple things I remember is,
• 22:17
  you know, they're genre agnostic,
• 22:19
  which is what we wanted to create.
• 22:22
  And I think the biggest compliment I got,
• 22:25
  very early on was from a very a very significant reviewer,
• 22:29
  a very revered reviewer, and he said,
• 22:33
  you should be congratulated because you you realized
• 22:36
  you realized you're in the music
• 22:39
  reproduction business, not the music production business.
• 22:42
  And I said, what does that mean?
• 22:43
  And he said, well, you're playing the music exactly the
• 22:47
  way the artist wanted it to sound.
• 22:49
  You're not changing it based on your own preferences,
• 22:54
  and that's become our North Star.
• 22:57
  Mhmm. That's become our North Star.
• 22:59
  And we don't we don't skimp on,
• 23:02
  materials or components.
• 23:04
  You know?
• 23:04
  We,
• 23:06
  we over I I would I would argue that we overbuild every product we make.
• 23:11
  We never we never focus on what it costs us.
• 23:15
  We focus on,
• 23:17
  is it something that we would be proud to put out in the market?
• 23:21
  And I think that's why so many so much of our business
• 23:24
  and some, you know,
• 23:26
  is working with luxury firms or in different collaborations
• 23:29
  because they trust us to make them the
• 23:32
  best product available.
• 23:33
  Mhmm.
• 23:35
  If you you said you mentioned that, the company was founded,
• 23:39
  like, almost a decade ago from to from today.
• 23:42
  I'm a I'm a ten year overnight success, Daniel.
• 23:45
  Yeah. Is it and this is wonderful.
• 23:47
  So if you look if you look back at the, you know,
• 23:50
  the the last ten years,
• 23:52
  but also as you mentioned as a maybe luxury consumer yourself,
• 23:56
  what would you say are kind of the,
• 24:00
  in your observations,
• 24:01
  the biggest changes that you see in a luxury client today
• 24:06
  versus maybe, you know, when you started and maybe even,
• 24:08
  you know, from your observations before?
• 24:10
  So what are what are kind of the changes in lifestyle and expectations
• 24:15
  and maybe behaviors and preferences?
• 24:19
  Of the of the of the luxury consumer?
• 24:22
  Mhmm.
• 24:25
  I I think,
• 24:27
  you know, I I,
• 24:30
  that's a good question.
• 24:31
  I I,
• 24:33
  how have they
• 24:35
  it
• 24:37
  I think they want you know,
• 24:38
  it's I I'm I'm trying to answer this in a way in a different
• 24:41
  different way is that Mhmm.
• 24:42
  You know, I think it's our consistency
• 24:46
  and our discipline which
• 24:49
  enables us to play at the level we do.
• 24:52
  Mhmm.
• 24:52
  And I think
• 24:54
  and then that then you take that forward.
• 24:56
  And I think the luxury consumer wants to trust the brand.
• 25:00
  They don't want you know,
• 25:01
  they they wanna believe in the brand.
• 25:03
  They don't want the brand to break what I call breaking the promise,
• 25:07
  an implicit promise of why they first engage with the brand.
• 25:15
  Yeah. I don't, it's a very good question.
• 25:18
  I I I want to, you know, think about it again,
• 25:21
  but maybe I wanna hear your I mean,
• 25:22
  I know it's this is you're supposed to be asking me
• 25:25
  questions, but I I wanna, you know,
• 25:27
  I love the way you think,
• 25:28
  and I'm gonna take the opportunity to ask you a
• 25:31
  question if that's okay.
• 25:32
  The same question.
• 25:33
  Wonderful. No.
• 25:34
  And I you know,
• 25:35
  maybe I build on what you said that that there there should be
• 25:38
  an element of of trust and an element of, you know, of a promise.
• 25:45
  And I I think you are spot on we are spot on with with that.
• 25:48
  Because if I look at the brands that you know,
• 25:52
  even if you take, you know,
• 25:53
  brands that have been around for hundred and fifty years
• 25:56
  longer or, you know, sixty years or so.
• 25:58
  So let's say legacy brands.
• 26:00
  And if you look at which brands have been successful
• 26:03
  over time, over decades,
• 26:07
  and which brands are kind of, you know,
• 26:09
  brands that are sometimes going up,
• 26:11
  and then they have a phase where they go down,
• 26:13
  and then they have a phase again where they go up,
• 26:16
  or maybe, you know, even brands that are not not performing.
• 26:19
  I I really think that what you said is is,
• 26:22
  something that is very that is very critical in here because
• 26:26
  what I observe is if you look at, let's say, even the recent, you know,
• 26:30
  quarter figures that have been published by some of the luxury houses,
• 26:34
  there are some brands that are not doing well right now.
• 26:37
  And what I observe with the brands that are underperforming
• 26:42
  is that they have done quite radical changes over the
• 26:46
  last one or two years.
• 26:48
  Sometimes, you know, they hire a new creative director,
• 26:50
  then change direction,
• 26:53
  cut almost ties with the past.
• 26:55
  And then the new creative director says, okay.
• 26:57
  Now under my leadership, there's a reset of the brand,
• 27:01
  and the brand is now different.
• 27:03
  And what you see is that the customers are then a bit
• 27:06
  confused on what the brand really stands for.
• 27:09
  And I think if you have see other brands,
• 27:12
  you know, for me, let's say, for example,
• 27:13
  Hermes would be a great example.
• 27:16
  Chanel would be a great example,
• 27:17
  and Louis Vuitton would be also a great example that that had
• 27:20
  managed to to go through, you know,
• 27:23
  periods where they had different creative directors.
• 27:27
  You know?
• 27:27
  For example, when you think about Chanel, the you know,
• 27:29
  after Karl Lagerfeld,
• 27:31
  there was a huge question mark because he was larger than life.
• 27:35
  How would the successor treat the brand?
• 27:38
  And the brand basically just continued
• 27:40
  and innovated, changed certain things,
• 27:43
  but was always true to their DNA.
• 27:46
  And I and it's, very, very impressed, for example,
• 27:49
  also with Louis Vuitton because when you also see over the last couple of years,
• 27:53
  the changes of creative directors when and then when
• 27:56
  they were really starting to disrupt even internally with
• 27:59
  virtual upload and then, you know, unfortunately,
• 28:02
  when virtual upload passed away, then again,
• 28:04
  changes in creative directors and now with Farrell.
• 28:07
  Williams, again, was a phenomenal person there.
• 28:10
  But what I think what they do extremely well is each new
• 28:14
  creative director to me seemingly
• 28:18
  has a very good understanding of the DNA of the brand.
• 28:21
  And I think most importantly,
• 28:23
  a respect for the DNA of the brand.
• 28:25
  And then they bring their own their own individuality in,
• 28:29
  their own, you know, cultural fit in and so on and change
• 28:34
  things up and shake things up,
• 28:35
  but it still remains the brand while some other brands,
• 28:41
  are not able really to do these transitions between, let's say,
• 28:45
  creative directors or creative direction
• 28:49
  without basically going through ups and downs.
• 28:51
  And I think, here, this this is what you said before.
• 28:55
  You know, having this clear understanding of who you are is so critical.
• 29:00
  Yeah.
• 29:01
  And I think there's another factor here, which is,
• 29:04
  you know, that you have to be
• 29:07
  disciplined.
• 29:08
  You have to be patient. You have to take the long view.
• 29:11
  Think about, you know, you know,
• 29:14
  let's go back in time when you know the story of Hermes.
• 29:17
  Right?
• 29:18
  It was a saddle a salary company, and then, you know,
• 29:21
  they realized that they were selling less saddles because
• 29:23
  there was something called an automobile.
• 29:25
  And I'm sure that was a bit of a terrifying period for them.
• 29:30
  But they stayed the course, and they innovated.
• 29:33
  And, you know, and then they went like,
• 29:37
  a lot of luxury companies that were family owned and and
• 29:40
  multigenerational, then they went public.
• 29:44
  And, you know, that sometimes can be the undoing,
• 29:48
  of some of these of some of these luxury brands.
• 29:51
  You know,
• 29:53
  if you talk the LVMH is public, and they manage it very well.
• 29:57
  Hermes is public. They do a great job. Chanel is private.
• 30:01
  I think, quite frankly, that's to their benefit,
• 30:04
  because they can, again,
• 30:06
  don't have to worry about quarter to quarter.
• 30:08
  You know, I think what happens, you know, Ferrari is public.
• 30:12
  And, you know, you know, from time to time,
• 30:16
  the markets may not agree with the strategy and the market and the stock might,
• 30:22
  you know,
• 30:24
  decline sometimes significantly.
• 30:26
  And that's where the great companies
• 30:30
  differ from the
• 30:32
  the the okay companies is they don't panic.
• 30:35
  They stay the course.
• 30:37
  They don't let the,
• 30:39
  the stock price really,
• 30:42
  affect their business strategy.
• 30:44
  Mhmm.
• 30:44
  And I think that's, again, goes back to the you know,
• 30:46
  what I said before, discipline in luxury,
• 30:51
  consistency is really, really important.
• 30:53
  Right? Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:55
  And I would also, you know, also reflecting a bit more,
• 30:58
  I can't I will borrow this word that you used before about
• 31:02
  effort, you know, putting effort in.
• 31:04
  I think this is to me also a differentiator between brands that,
• 31:09
  are consistently
• 31:11
  performing over time and brands that, you know,
• 31:14
  go through the up and down.
• 31:15
  Because sometimes I feel like there are certain brands
• 31:18
  that kind of cut corners.
• 31:20
  So they go to you know, there's a trend,
• 31:22
  and they follow the trend,
• 31:23
  and they see competitor doing some things,
• 31:25
  then they they go they try to, you know,
• 31:27
  not for fear of missing out,
• 31:29
  then try to do something that this competitor is doing.
• 31:32
  And by this, they they kind of almost,
• 31:35
  you know, lose their identity of who they are.
• 31:38
  And, and I think also, you know,
• 31:41
  when it comes to I like also very much what you said before
• 31:44
  around collaborations,
• 31:47
  which basically where you said both both partners have to
• 31:50
  bring themselves in, and there has to be also, like,
• 31:53
  an intentionality in that.
• 31:55
  And because there's also, again, I mean, you know,
• 31:57
  collaborations now in in the luxury world are somehow the
• 32:01
  name of the game.
• 32:02
  But there's, again,
• 32:03
  certain brands that where it feels that the
• 32:06
  collaborations almost are, kind of random,
• 32:10
  and and you don't see necessarily two DNAs
• 32:14
  coming together and then creating something
• 32:17
  different or something exciting,
• 32:19
  but something maybe more expected.
• 32:21
  And I think, you know,
• 32:23
  this this kind of wow moments that you mentioned before
• 32:26
  are also so so critical, but but this intentionality, the effort,
• 32:31
  you can basically say is probably even goes beyond just
• 32:34
  the product, but in almost everything that the brand has to do.
• 32:38
  And this then comes back to what you said about the the,
• 32:42
  you know, being very,
• 32:44
  being very, you know, consistent,
• 32:47
  and and very focused in developing the brand.
• 32:50
  Right. Right.
• 32:51
  Being consistent doesn't mean you can't be creative and
• 32:54
  innovative and playful.
• 32:56
  But Mhmm.
• 32:57
  You have to,
• 32:59
  you know but but with with within that,
• 33:03
  there has to be some type of trust and consistency
• 33:06
  from your from your your fans and your and your consumers.
• 33:10
  Right?
• 33:10
  They they will again,
• 33:12
  it's it's this concept as you that you know,
• 33:15
  it's like earning the permission from the consumer.
• 33:17
  Right?
• 33:18
  Yeah.
• 33:20
  And, and not breaking the promise. So yeah.
• 33:25
  Mhmm.
• 33:25
  And maybe one one thing that comes to my mind right now is, you know,
• 33:29
  or you mentioned a little bit earlier in our conversation
• 33:32
  that, you know, for you,
• 33:34
  it's also very important who wears your head phone so that
• 33:37
  basically the the customer your customers your customers
• 33:41
  basically become the the spokespeople of of the brand.
• 33:45
  So so I would be curious about, you know,
• 33:48
  when when it comes to connecting
• 33:51
  your brand with customers and Yeah.
• 33:55
  Getting the word out.
• 33:56
  And so what are what are for you also learnings,
• 34:00
  over the last decade and maybe also some critical success
• 34:03
  factors that you can share Yeah.
• 34:05
  In Yeah.
• 34:05
  In in basically, you know,
• 34:07
  marketing your brand in a sense.
• 34:09
  Yeah.
• 34:09
  I mean, I just wanna, you know, make sure people understand.
• 34:12
  I I don't I don't,
• 34:15
  I don't worry about who's wearing wearing my my product or not.
• 34:18
  I think, you know,
• 34:21
  I'm very proud to have anybody wearing my product.
• 34:24
  And
• 34:26
  usually, the people who who make the effort to buy our
• 34:29
  product, you know,
• 34:30
  they there's a lot of a lot of options on the market.
• 34:33
  There's a lot of, you know, cheaper products on the market.
• 34:36
  People are making a considered purchase.
• 34:40
  Mhmm.
• 34:40
  And I I know I didn't I did something, you know,
• 34:44
  sort of it it wasn't really scientific, but back, you know,
• 34:48
  I think, almost when we around the time we launched,
• 34:51
  one of our our,
• 34:54
  our our trademarks was and we we talked about a lot was we
• 34:58
  called it sound tools for creative minds.
• 35:01
  Mhmm.
• 35:02
  That was our probably our first campaign
• 35:04
  and brand positioning.
• 35:06
  And as I would travel around New York City or in in
• 35:10
  different cities and I would see somebody wearing my
• 35:14
  headphones, I would stop them.
• 35:16
  I wouldn't tell them who I was,
• 35:19
  and I'd say something to the effect of,
• 35:21
  like and a lot of times,
• 35:22
  I'd have to signal for them to take them off so they could hear me.
• 35:25
  And I'd say, hey.
• 35:28
  Those those are great headphones. Whose are they?
• 35:31
  And they'd say Master and Dynamic, and I he's like, oh,
• 35:33
  it's this cool brand called Master and Dynamic.
• 35:35
  I was like, oh, where'd you get them?
• 35:36
  And they tell me where they bought them.
• 35:37
  I said, what do you think of them?
• 35:39
  And they said, oh, they're amazing.
• 35:41
  And then I'd ask them this last question, which,
• 35:47
  they, you know, they always would look at me a little bit strange at first,
• 35:50
  and they'd say I say, and what do you do for a living?
• 35:53
  And, and then they would tell me,
• 35:57
  and I would say,
• 35:58
  I'm the I would pull out my business card and say, thank you.
• 36:02
  It's my company.
• 36:03
  And it was always a big surprise,
• 36:04
  and and I would stay in touch with a lot of people.
• 36:07
  That's a long way of saying that
• 36:09
  that the majority of the people I asked that question to were
• 36:14
  in creative fields.
• 36:16
  Mhmm.
• 36:17
  They were artists. They were designers.
• 36:22
  It was very interesting.
• 36:23
  It was very inter architects, it was very interesting to see.
• 36:27
  So,
• 36:31
  you know, and that just helps, you know,
• 36:33
  that just helps promote the brand.
• 36:35
  I mean, it's really, I truly believe in in word-of-mouth.
• 36:40
  And and, you know, when you see somebody,
• 36:43
  on the street wearing something different and they have a
• 36:46
  certain way about them or look about them,
• 36:49
  you always take a double take.
• 36:51
  Yeah.
• 36:52
  Yeah.
• 36:53
  Yep.
• 36:54
  Yep.
• 36:54
  And how important is for for Master and Dynamic social media?
• 37:03
  We do our own social well, I'll tell you,
• 37:08
  it's important.
• 37:09
  We don't stress over it.
• 37:12
  We we are very, very fortunate that we get more,
• 37:17
  again, through our collaborations when our partners who are much
• 37:21
  bigger in sizes, have much bigger falls when they post,
• 37:23
  it's it's amazing shot in the arm.
• 37:27
  Our social media is,
• 37:30
  if you were to go on our on on at master nemic dot com
• 37:34
  at master nemic on Instagram right now,
• 37:37
  you would not see any celebrities.
• 37:39
  We don't use celebrities as a rule.
• 37:43
  We do have a lot of celebrities and influencers and musicians
• 37:45
  who wear our product.
• 37:47
  If they're photographed,
• 37:49
  we we thank them.
• 37:53
  If,
• 37:55
  if they post it, we thank them, but we never repost.
• 38:00
  We just, we treat it with,
• 38:06
  you know you know, I think it's what I would call quiet luxury.
• 38:10
  Be before there was a term quiet luxury,
• 38:12
  we were sort of just you know,
• 38:14
  I think I think there's been a tipping point in fashion and
• 38:17
  luxury where there's almost overpromotion with celebrities.
• 38:21
  And, we just don't wanna we just
• 38:24
  that's not our thing.
• 38:25
  We let our product speak for itself.
• 38:28
  I love that because to me,
• 38:29
  it signals also a very strong self confidence of the of the brand.
• 38:34
  And I feel sometimes when I see brands that are overusing
• 38:39
  celebrities or almost, like, depending on celebrities,
• 38:44
  it, to me, in today's world, feels almost a bit like,
• 38:46
  you know, you almost beg for the acceptance,
• 38:51
  or for for the celebrity to, to endorse you.
• 38:55
  And that, for me, takes a bit of way way of, like,
• 38:58
  confidence of the brands.
• 39:00
  I love that approach.
• 39:01
  Maybe my my to conclude our our conversation,
• 39:06
  I would be very curious where do you see the future of luxury?
• 39:09
  And I know it's a big question, but what are, like,
• 39:11
  things that you see trends and and so on where you where you
• 39:15
  think the future of luxury is going to go?
• 39:19
  I think,
• 39:22
  I well, I mean, I'll go back to effort and discipline.
• 39:28
  I think what you're gonna see is
• 39:36
  is luxury brands,
• 39:42
  probably creating,
• 39:44
  higher you know, continuing to to push higher and higher in price points,
• 39:50
  not to gouge the consumer,
• 39:52
  but to just to create products that that of higher value,
• 39:58
  and
• 39:59
  probably
• 40:01
  create fewer overall products.
• 40:04
  Mhmm.
• 40:05
  And I think that's
• 40:07
  that's something I plan on doing at Master and Dynamic.
• 40:14
  You know, I don't wanna fill landfills with with,
• 40:17
  lots of, you know, headphones and and batteries.
• 40:21
  I we care about that.
• 40:22
  But I also think I I think,
• 40:25
  we're at a tipping point in terms
• 40:28
  of longevity, and I think people want,
• 40:33
  you know, there's a lot of wealth in this world,
• 40:35
  and you don't necessarily have to be extremely wealthy to be a luxury consumer.
• 40:38
  But I think people
• 40:41
  are gonna, there's a trend to wanting fewer but better things in your life.
• 40:47
  Wonderful.
• 40:49
  I think this is an amazing conclusion.
• 40:51
  And, Jonathan, thank you so much for being on on this podcast and taking the
• 40:55
  time out of your business schedule to to be with us.
• 40:58
  I thought it was a fantastic conversation.
• 40:59
  I learned a lot.
• 41:01
  And Likewise. Likewise.
• 41:03
  Yeah. Thank you.
• 41:04
  And tomorrow, when I will be on my next flight,
• 41:07
  I will have these guys on again.
• 41:08
  Alright. Safe travels, Daniel. Good speaking with you.
• 41:11
  Yeah. Likewise. Bye bye. Bye bye.
• 41:13
  Thank you so much, Jonathan. Bye bye.
• 41:15
  Bye bye.