Latest / Ruining the Workplace Podcast / EP 1 Grace O'Malley Ruins Pirating
Transcript
- Jaden: I'm Jaden and this is the Ruining the Workplace podcast. Danielle: and I'm Danielle. Jaden: we're Danielle is gonna tell us a story and I don't know what the subject is. And then we're gonna talk about it. And then ⁓ we've got some Ruining the Workplace tips of the week. We're excited to share those with you. So let's get started. Danielle: Yeah, let's get into it. So before I get into the story, I want to preface this. I'm going to ask you a question. And also, I want to say that the story that I'm going to tell today is and also based a little bit in some folklore. So, Jaden, imagine that you are a woman in the 16th century. Are you picturing, are you visualizing that? Jaden: Ooh. I down to what I'm wearing. Let's go. I am wearing a maroon long dress. It's kind of a linen-y cotton. It's a little bit modest, but it's also, you know what? I know that I have a lot of farm work to do and I've got animals and I ⁓ probably have some kids running around and my husband out, you know, doing church stuff and I'm not sure I'm down with that. Danielle: ⁓ I love it. What are you wearing? a woman in the 16th century, what do you suppose ⁓ your job options were at the time? Jaden: that's such a good question because I bet there weren't very many. I would imagine it is being a subservient wife ⁓ raising children and probably just a lot of church related activities. So I imagine it's just very homestead. ⁓ Danielle: Yes. Jaden: in service type of... yep. Danielle: Yeah. Have you thought about pirating? Jaden: Say more. Danielle: ⁓ if you were a woman by the name of Grace O'Malley in ⁓ Ireland the time, I believe it was County Mayo, you would have been a pirate or a chieftess, which was an unusual role for women at the time. Apparently Ireland in the 16th century had more flexible rules around women in leadership roles, but still not, it's not commonplace. you to have any position of power. Your marriages would have still been determined you know, what can help your family or your clan. However, this woman, Grace O'Malley, ⁓ is a 16th Irish pirate and chieftess. And I think it's so cool. She has ⁓ a little bit of nepotism play in that her father was the chieftain of her clan, ⁓ and that's kind of who learned her pirating from. ⁓ But I want to talk about her because she was doing some pretty remarkable things in a time and in a culture that mostly had women running the household, doing some farm chores, probably doing some church work. So she also had brothers. And they apparently were legally not able to or socially not up to the task of taking over their father's work. So when Grace was really young, she The story goes that she shaved her hair or had very little hair and kind of stowed away on some of her father's pirate ships and was able to learn the skills as a child. And her father was kind of like, okay, you can hang out and see if this works for you and we'll see how this goes. At 16, she did enter a politically advantageous marriage, which Not surprising, right? But it did bring her more influence and money. So she'd already started to make a name for herself. She got married, was able to get a little bit more notoriety. And when her husband died, she was able to go back out to sea and back ⁓ to kind of running her family of origin clan. Then she got married again. ⁓ on her second marriage, and I love this, ⁓ had a condition that she try it out for a year. if she wasn't into it she could leave the marriage no real repercussions. Which she did! So after a year she's living in this castle with her new husband, they have a couple kids together, and a year she's like, I'm over it, and she kicked the dude out and was somehow able to keep his castle. I don't know the inner workings of how that... it must been in their contract in some way, but she was able to... keep the castle, and then go to her seafaring ways. So pirating ⁓ in 16th century ⁓ Ireland is largely on stealing. So the wealth and success of a given is determined by ⁓ how many heads of cattle they have. So a big part of her work was kind of sailing around the Irish coast and stealing cows from neighboring clans. And she was really well known for it. However, our girl is also pretty entrepreneurial. So historically, her family kind of controlled a certain of the water in County Mayo. And that like they quote unquote owned it. And they would go off and pirate these other sections and steal the cattle, bring them back, whatever. She decided, hey, who travels through our water is trespassing and we can charge them a toll. So she implemented this type of piracy, which was toll-taking, ⁓ to safe passage for folks to go through. Now the waters that her clan controlled was on a really busy trade route. So I imagine they made bank. They basically hit traffic coming up from Spain to the port of Galway and then further onto Scotland. So. ⁓ If you were to look at a map of Ireland, it sounds like it's a pretty significant space that they were able to of control and then take money from. So our girl is stealing cattle, taking tolls ⁓ maintaining trade with Spain, which sounds like that was also pretty rare at the time. So they were importing items from Spain, such as iron and weapons, and then exchanging things like salted fish and hides, things like that. So she's maintaining this large book of business, essentially. And again, most women are at home raising babies or tending to the farm or doing whatever church stuff you'd mentioned. And she's out here running a business and just doing amazing things. And her influence continues to grow. Now at some point as time goes on, the Tudors so we're crossing the water a little bit. The Tudors in England are starting to take back control of Ireland or take more control of Ireland. And they send this guy, Sir Richard Bingham, to be the governor of the town that Grace and her extended family live in. he's not surprisingly very much like puritan and militaristic of like you have to beat sense into some of these people. He's extremely violent and he was, you know, putting those practices into place on the Irish people. and he apparently had a huge problem with Grace and has quoted that she had overstepped the part of womanhood. What I think is really interesting with this, that Sir Richard guy essentially up to Queen Elizabeth. Because in this time, it's not Henry VIII, right? It's his daughter, Queen Elizabeth, who's leading this charge of taking over and growing the English Empire. So Richard is reporting, essentially, up to this woman, but then also having a hard time with women in power. So I'm just like, ooh, how did he deal with Elizabeth? That must have been so hard for him, the poor guy. her in- Jaden: That poor man. Danielle: I know that poor man, This has got to be so hard for him. And she ships him off to Ireland and he has to like try to maintain control there. there's just these women doing great things. It's crazy. But so story kind of down of, ⁓ know, I don't know, it's well documented, like what happens the rest of her life. She continues to be very well known both in Ireland and in England ⁓ for being this kind of lady about town like she's they see her as she's been labeled as the nurse to all rebellions in the province for 40 years the most notorious woman in all the coasts of ireland basically word of her has spread so much so that someone on behalf of queen elizabeth has taken grace's ⁓ youngest son i believe and another member of her family and she actually goes to England to meet with Queen Elizabeth to plead the case to like set her family members free. And it works out well for her. So I imagine that these two bitches got together and were like, listen, we can figure something out. And they did. I'm sure a lot of other interesting things happen in Grace's life. She didn't die until she was like 73. I'm assuming there's maybe a little bit of witchcraft at hand as well, because time period, who's living that long? ⁓ that pirate life. mean, what? So that's basically the story of Grace. Like if somebody else were to pull up, like, I'm sure there's more details. But what stands out to me in all of this is like she's playing. She snuck in to play a role that she was never supposed to play. She had to learn, complex sea navigation, Jaden: that pirate life for me sort of. ⁓ Danielle: learning the dangerous waters around Ireland. She sailed to Spain a few times. And then understanding trade routes, new business within the trade routes and like effectively implementing it. All while like building a name for herself. And she had several children and she was married several times and striking fear into the heart of this one Richard Bingham guy who just did not like her and then lived for a really long time. ⁓ Jaden: I'm wondering, did she outlive Mr. Bingham? Because wouldn't that just be the best revenge of all? I mean, it sounds like she's not getting revenge on him, but you know what I mean. Like, she's just like besting him. I'm, that's fantastic. Way to go, Grace. Danielle: ooh! ⁓ God. She did outlive him also. ⁓ Jaden: You're so iconic. ⁓ Danielle: for like four years. I love it. Jaden: HA! You know what, even four days would be iconic. Danielle: Amazing, amazing. I mean, So she essentially took over the family business, but she grew it in such ⁓ impressive ways and really made a name for herself. Right. It's not like she's just tending to the sheep and the cattle that are on land. ⁓ She's continuing make money for the clan and like fight for. I mean, ⁓ Jaden: ⁓ huh. Mm-hmm. Danielle: there were fights and things going on as well, right? Like she's leading the charge for her people. Jaden: Mm hmm. Was she of a few other female like clan leaders or was she kind of like the standout exception of these? Danielle: My understanding is that she was kind of the standout, that it was not super common. Ireland at the time did have ⁓ laws around kind who could step in and lead the clan, but it was still not common to have a woman ⁓ do Jaden: Mm-hmm. It's also fascinating to me that she's out here doing all of this, but then also has the time to be a wife and a mom. How many kids did she have? Did you say that? Danielle: I don't know if it's exactly counted for in what I saw in my research there's at least four I think. I don't know if that's all of them right ⁓ or if they're all hers or if some were like stepchildren. Yeah I know. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Even to take on step kids that when you're so busy. ⁓ So Danielle: I know. I'm like, I'm tired for her. I didn't get into it because I couldn't find a lot of information on it, but there's one story, I think it's the birth of her youngest, while she was at sea on a ship. And like, what I had read was, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to paraphrase, like speak this back as best I can, but. essentially it was like she had just given birth on the ship and then their ship was boarded by some enemy pirates or something. And she comes busting out like not happening on my watch guys and like at to the of the situation she had just had a baby. Like this just happened. ⁓ apparently ⁓ story has been passed down. ⁓ through the folklore over the last 400 years. But then there's some things that are documented. Like, we know that she met Queen Elizabeth, that her petition is well documented. ⁓ There's also some documents that speak to the of her son and then her ship being attacked, where someone could make the connection of yeah, that really happened. Like, that did actually happen. There's trade. documents or something like that that tie that together where we could make that leap. And other things like we don't know exactly like, did she up as a boy and sneak onto her father's ship? Is that how she really started? That's unclear, right? Part of it is her name in Gaelic, the way that it's ⁓ means bald in that language. so that's where people make the assumption of like, well, she didn't have much hair or she was bald. So it's possible that when she was young, they must took her for a boy, right? just so interesting to put together some of the different puzzle pieces and it just continues to build on her badassery, I think. Jaden: I mean, she's out here like just writing the manual while everybody else is like, she's just like, I just had a baby, but I got to get this done. And know what comes up for me is ⁓ what's the modern sort of connector this, right? Where this is clearly another instance where the mom and it's not even the mom. mean, all women do this mothers or not. But in this case, yet another of a mother who literally has to keep everything together. We are we are ⁓ literally driving the ship, right, sailing the ship having babies ⁓ and having relationships and like powerful, conversations with extremely people. And somehow she's just being a badass through all of it. My modern parallel is I feel like what has changed from this? Because I'm not sailing a ship, but I do feel the pressure of the world is on my shoulders most of the time because that's my role. I got to make all the things happen all the time. you know what I mean? Danielle: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, It's funny that you mentioned this because I had this feeling this morning. I was in a meeting and so it's Thanksgiving week and Our schools don't have school this week. So my kid I was home My partner was at an appointment. So I'm like, hey, I got a meeting I'm gonna set you up with something to do like we're good to go and of course he comes in to ask me things while I'm in this meeting and unfortunately, it was one of those meetings where like it was mostly information for me, so I needed to be like in it and pay attention. And I'm trying to help my kiddo do this, find the next number in his dot to dot thing, while also looking at the camera and maintaining connection to the folks in the meeting and still taking in their information. And I mean, if that's not witchcraft, I don't know what is because I can confidently say I found the next number he was looking for. and I was able to confirm what the folks were telling me on the call. Like, yep, that's exactly what I need. I think I'm good. It's right here, buddy. Okay, great. Yes, it's crazy. And I mean, I can't imagine doing it on the scale that Grace was doing it where it's like, I have to keep my crew alive. I have to keep my clan alive. I also have to keep my children alive. Like, there's a lot of moving parts, but I think I'm not unique. Jaden: I love the two brains happening there. ⁓ my gosh. Danielle: in the situation that I had this morning, right? Like, I'm sure you've dealt with that. I'm sure that, you know, any female at work or any woman at work is dealing with all of this, like, multiple inputs and juggling all of the things. It's, it's so real. ⁓ Jaden: Mm-hmm. I remember during the COVID era, had to do ⁓ and my kiddo you know, they're in that funny space where it's like... you're right in between having them be a little more independent and, but them still like totally depending on you. And so now we're all working from home and it's just like, okay, how do I manage their time and my time? And then I'm supposed to somehow know how to be a teacher all of a sudden and I have to make time to be a teacher. you know, it was just such a wake up to being like, you are stretching yourself thin in ways that you never have experienced ⁓ and demand that it puts on you as a mom ⁓ is emotionally charged in ways that it's not for, you know, men. I think it's very different and ⁓ then we're expected to turn around and just show up and be professional. ⁓ know, I think we're all really getting good at doing that, but I do think that the space that we need to create for ourselves, like doing something like this or just acknowledging this. And I think, where we work, I think we do this really well. You know, we allow each other space, we give each other grace ⁓ and ⁓ You know, when you look at the broader picture, it just isn't always that way. So you just yet another layer of like, how do you manage it all, you know? Danielle: Yeah, that's so true. I'm curious. to think about like the pushback angle of it, right? where do we see either in our lives or just things that we've witnessed, the pushback on why are you trying to do all these things, right? Or like, that's not your role, that shouldn't be for you. Like, do you see that? Jaden: ⁓ I see it micro ways. What I notice, ⁓ the attention that's given between men and women in the workplace is still very different. Like there's always gonna be some sort of separation. I do think that there's a greater ally building But what... I see constantly coming up is it's just men being coddled. It's true. ⁓ know, it seems like there's a lot more of this sort of grace given to guys and then ⁓ women have to kind of come in and clean up the mess like there's a fixing that needs to happen and either you're better at details or you're better at taking notes or you're just better at process or something like that. So you're kind of constantly playing this game of cleanup or making sure the details are done on behalf of someone else. Danielle: ⁓ this is it would be great if we were on camera because I'm like nodding along so aggressively. That's exactly it. like, well, your skill set is so perfected to this. And sometimes I wonder like, have we? conditioned everyone to see it that way. There's like two things, right? There's like the men being coddled because I'm absolutely seeing that. And I'm like, why are we doing that? Can we not all just do a good job? there's that. And then there's the, hey, ladies, can you come make this right? Can fix this? Can you help this? ⁓ And do. And part me wonders. ⁓ And I'm not, I don't want to throw our girl Grace under the bus, but now I'm like, ⁓ my God, did she set the standard? was ⁓ ago. ⁓ I wonder if like, you could look at women today and be like, well, you are doing all of those things and you're doing fine. You're doing great. You're killing it. You know, even though it doesn't feel like that, right? Like is the, are the optics like that? We can do all these things. So why not? Like it's still majorly messed up and shouldn't work that way, but Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: Now I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, but have we been setting the standard? but this is not me blaming the victim. I want to make it very clear, not blaming the Okay, yeah, this is not me. ⁓ Jaden: Mm-hmm. wasn't getting that out of it. I think what you're pointing out is really interesting. Well, that's the kind of paradox of it, right? Like there's a little bit of that sort of, hey, you gotta pave the way, but you can't, well, okay. So I was just like, wait a minute. Is this us saying we're not doing it correctly just because that's how we've been taught to think? ⁓ man. See, ⁓ is a great example of how it just shows up in the weirdest ways. And this is some of that. Danielle: Yeah! Great. Jaden: self-doubt, the imposter syndrome. I think, you know, that shows up both men and women, but I do think there's a really special version of imposter syndrome that shows up for women. And that is deeply, deeply ingrained in us. And I think people like Grace ⁓ are of kind being like shut the hell up, but also I know my role and I have to like kind of deal within the patriarchal sort of confines around that. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know what? We don't know if she was great at all of the things. You know, I mean, maybe she was. Jaden: Mm-mm. I just wonder what it was like back then for women to go through sort of the emotional side of things. Like, you know, we have our emotions and stuff and the heights and the lows and all of those. And like, how do you deal with that in the kind of conditions that she was in? And that's what I always wonder about. How did they deal with their own emotions? Cause everybody seemed like they had to have such resolve so much of the time. Danielle: Yeah. it. Yeah. Yeah, and it's hard because that's one of the things like you can't really pass that down well through history, right? Because most of the time the folks who are documenting things in a historical context are men. And they are probably going to label them. Oh, she was hysterical. So it's like, oh, OK, so she was probably burnt out. Jaden: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: and you're labeling hers crazy. see. You know what I mean? Like, wonder the same thing. Like, how did you cope? Like, what was the emotional strain? You was it hard being away from ⁓ your or like raising children on a pirate ship while you're fighting people? You know, like there's a lot at play, but I also don't know that there's a good way to pass down some of that. Jaden: Yeah, especially when the infrastructure isn't really there. It's not built to encourage it to be passed down, especially in sort of a rule breaking sort of a way, you know, or, or a role. It's kind of like what we were saying earlier about her. She's kind of writing the manual as she goes in a lot of ways, which I, which I really love about her story because it's kind of the mentality, right? Like, yeah, I don't have all the answers, but I sure as hell am gonna give it my best shot. Danielle: to me that seems like clear thing we could infer from her story, right? ⁓ I'm sure she didn't have all the answers and maybe she was really confident and played like did or, know, cause there's like, cocky and then there's like, I'll figure it out. We'll get there. ⁓ But I love that that's like a clear thing we can take away from this too, right? Because. Jaden: Mm-hmm. Danielle: I want to be able to like not just have the story, but also be like, what can I do with this story? Or how can this like, how can I use this to make my own work life better? And I love the concept of like, I don't know the answers, but I can figure it out and we can get there. And I would love for more of us to feel like we have that and that we can do that because that's how we move forward. And that's how we make some of the changes by letting go of some of that imposter syndrome ⁓ being confident in that like, yeah, I don't know, but I can do as much as I can to figure it out. Jaden: Should we give our ruining the workplace tip of the week as we wrap this up? It's just a little small act of, well, telling everybody to just go at themselves every once in a while. And so my advice to anybody who might need a moment of, Danielle: Yes, I think so. I think it's time. ⁓ Jaden: levity, rebellion, or just simply telling someone to F off. Schedule yourself a meeting, call it review, and then spend an hour reviewing yourself. sure you take notes. Danielle: Love that. Jaden: you Danielle: Love that so much. Jaden: I mean, get to know yourself and give yourself some notes. Oh my gosh. This has been a really fascinating conversation. I love it so much. Thank you for telling us the story of Grace O'Malley. she is one of those ladies who's definitely ruined the workplace. Danielle: I mean, that Richard guy was upset. strong for the time, I think. ⁓ I love it. This has been so fun. I can't wait to see what story we dive into next. Jaden: Thanks so much. And yeah, We'll keep on ruining the workplace. I'll see you next time. Bye. Danielle: Bye!