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How to Stop Micromanaging and Be a Better Boss with Lia Garvin · Loud & Lifted

0:00
We've talked a lot on this show about bad bosses.
0:03
Apparently, a lot of you can relate. How to deal
0:06
with them. How to survive a micromanager when
0:08
it might even be time to leave. But today, we're
0:11
flipping that conversation. Because what if you
0:13
were listening and thinking, wait a minute, do
0:15
I do that? Most of us don't set out to be a bad
0:19
boss. We want things done well. We want to support
0:22
our team. But somewhere along the way, being
0:24
helpful can turn into being involved in absolutely
0:27
everything. And suddenly, nobody can make a decision
0:31
without us. My guest today is Leah Garvin. She's
0:35
a team management expert who has led team operations
0:38
at Google, Microsoft, and Apple. She also hosts
0:41
the Managing Made Simple podcast and is the author
0:43
of the new manager playbook. We're talking about
0:46
three signs you might be micromanaging without
0:48
even realizing it. Why your best employees asking
0:51
for more responsibility is a moment you shouldn't
0:54
brush off. and how to become a manager people
0:57
actually want to work for. Whether you're new
1:00
to managing or have been doing this for years,
1:02
there's probably something in this conversation
1:04
that will make you pause, and something you can
1:07
use right away. Let's get into it. Welcome to
1:10
Loud and Lifted. Leah, thank you so much for
1:13
being here. So excited to be here with you. Yes,
1:16
me too. We are about, I'd say, 40 guests into
1:20
Loud and Lifted over the last year and a half.
1:22
And some of our most popular topics of conversation
1:25
on this podcast have been about bad bosses, right?
1:30
And how to deal with toxic bosses and micromanagers.
1:33
And we even did bad bosses. There's 13 archetypes.
1:35
So we've all had a lot of conversation that clearly
1:38
resonates with a lot of women, which is a shame,
1:40
but also good if they can get some advice through
1:42
the last year and a half. Today, we're going
1:45
to switch that and instead of talking about how
1:48
to deal with your bad boss, I'm sure there's
1:50
been people sitting here listening to episodes
1:52
of the past and be like, wait a minute. Does
1:54
this sound like me? What do I do if they're talking
1:58
about me and that paranoia may set in? Or maybe
2:01
you're new to managing employees. So we're going
2:03
to flip the script today and talk about the other
2:05
side of how do we make sure that we are good
2:08
managers and good bosses. And you're so passionate
2:11
about this. You wrote an entire playbook about
2:13
this, which I love so much. So let's kind of
2:16
start at the beginning of why is this such an
2:19
issue? Why is it so hard to have good managers?
2:22
Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost, it's
2:25
because I think this data is 77 % of managers
2:29
take on the role with no training or support.
2:32
And so like, if we think about that... four out
2:35
of five, right? You did really good as an individual
2:39
contributor, or you've been on a team for a long
2:41
time, or you start a business and you're like,
2:44
okay, I gotta get some people to help me. And
2:46
there's just like no training or no, you know,
2:49
sure there's resources out there, but I think
2:52
actually how do you become a good leader? How
2:55
do you actually build that muscle is a whole
2:57
different thing than, you know, just, you know,
3:01
hearing about like what is a good leader from
3:03
like, you know, Simon Sinek Ted talk or something
3:06
like that, which I'm a fan of. But I think, you
3:10
know, so I would say the first thing is I think
3:13
we underestimate because we, you know, I've dealt
3:16
with people before. I've coached my kids soccer
3:18
team. I've, you know, done done whatever that
3:21
we assume. How hard could it be? How hard could
3:23
it be to be a manager? Right. And then we take
3:26
that role on and we're like, this is way harder
3:30
than I ever thought about. And even if you've
3:32
done it really well in one situation, maybe there's
3:35
something totally different, right? Like I know,
3:38
and something we might talk about on this episode
3:39
is like, if you go from managing people that
3:42
you were peers with, or friends with, or for
3:45
business owners, where a family member like,
3:47
that's a whole different ball game than, you
3:51
know, managing folks that you hired. Or maybe
3:53
you inherited the team versus got to handpick
3:56
folks from the beginning. So it's not just about
3:59
like a one size fits all. And I think we can
4:03
oversimplify it because it's just like humans
4:05
and we deal with humans every day. And I think
4:08
it's such a big issue because we don't stop and
4:11
treat it like, hey, if I need to learn how to,
4:15
you know, like learn a trade or something, like
4:18
if I became a cousin, you know, went up through
4:20
ranks. doing like electrical, right? Like he
4:24
was like trade, worked in the trade and then
4:26
he became a journey man and now he's working
4:27
in corporate. Like he learned and had these gates
4:29
and like you learn these skills and you can't
4:32
progress if you haven't spent time doing that
4:34
and like proven it. With leaders, it's just like,
4:37
okay, you know what I mean? Like, woo, go for
4:40
it. and we're learning in front of an audience
4:42
of people that are relying on us to pick it up
4:44
pretty quickly. So I think that's the genesis
4:47
of the of why it is so hard. One, we're not given
4:50
training and because we beat ourselves up because
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we feel like we should already kind of know it
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and we don't treat it the same as if we're learning,
4:56
you know, if you become an engineer, you go through
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computer science training, all these things,
5:00
you know, if you become a, you know, run a hair
5:03
salon, you've gone through, you know, you know,
5:05
getting, you know, the training there, whatever
5:07
it is like, but to be a leader. Like, there's
5:12
no qualification, actually. Right, right. But
5:15
you have to, you know, people rely on you to
5:17
get it right. So it's so complicated. It is so
5:20
complicated, and you're so right. Companies don't
5:22
set up their employees for success, right? No.
5:24
From the training and understanding the emotional
5:27
intelligence piece and the people piece. And
5:30
I have seen so many times where someone's really
5:32
good, to your point, of a skill. They might be
5:34
a really good salesperson and they can crush
5:37
their goals and they're doing amazing things.
5:39
So it's like, oh, well, we should put her in
5:41
charge of more salespeople. Well, guess what?
5:43
That's a totally different skill set than going
5:45
out and selling. So, you know, it happens time
5:48
and time again. And I think so many of us, I
5:51
think that early in my career, I just thought
5:53
I wanted to be I wanted a higher title, right?
5:55
I wanted to be the manager, the director, and
5:58
wanted to grow for title, money, whatever the
6:02
reasons are, that we don't really realize what
6:04
comes along with actually managing people and
6:07
this huge responsibility that it is. Yeah. Yeah,
6:11
exactly. Or I think on the flip side, folks that
6:14
could be a great leader don't want to do it because
6:16
they're like, I don't want to do the paperwork
6:18
and all this other stuff. They also don't understand
6:20
what it's about. I think, yeah, exactly you're
6:25
saying. And for an entrepreneur or a business
6:28
owner or a founder, you had this idea, this vision,
6:32
maybe it's something that you were very good
6:33
at, like, and so, or a problem that you identified
6:36
that you would have wanted solved for yourself.
6:38
That's a lot of times a business kind of idea
6:40
comes from that. And managing people, overseeing
6:43
a team and spelling it out for those, like, has
6:45
zero to do with what you've ever thought would
6:47
come with it, you know? And again, it's not your
6:50
fault, but a lot of business owners that come
6:52
to me say like, I didn't sign up for this. I
6:55
didn't want to be a manager. I don't want to
6:57
have to deal with this. And I'm like, well, if
6:59
you've hired people, you kind of like did sign
7:01
up for it. And that's where I come in to help
7:03
it make it easier for them. Yeah. And you're
7:05
right. It's not just an HR policy and paperwork.
7:08
It's handling that day to day. And as you were
7:10
saying, I was thinking of a friend of mine who
7:11
owns a hair salon and a clothing boutique. And
7:14
she is a solopreneur at this point. And there's
7:17
been times where people worked for her. And she's
7:18
like, I don't want people to work for me. I don't
7:20
want to have to deal with other schedules and
7:22
the conflict and the time. And she's like, I
7:24
just want to come in, do my job, and move on.
7:26
I'm like, I can totally see why you say that.
7:30
Because it is a lot. And then the other piece,
7:32
I think with your friend's example, she's having
7:35
to work more and bring in more business to pay
7:38
for these other people who may or may not also
7:40
be growing the business and usually are not helping
7:42
to grow the business, frankly. And I think it's
7:45
something a lot of us think about is like at
7:48
a certain point, is there diminishing returns
7:50
on hiring? And I think a lot of times we try
7:54
to solve bottlenecks or not getting enough work
7:58
done or growing the business through hiring more
8:00
people. And it's not always the answer. It can
8:03
create a lot more complexity before that becomes
8:06
the right answer. And when you're going to hire,
8:08
that's where you need a lot of systems in place
8:09
to ensure that those people are deployed in the
8:11
right way. Yeah. It's definitely a complicated,
8:15
you know, I think level when you kind of step
8:16
into that. So let's say someone's listening to
8:19
this and they are a manager, right? They're like,
8:21
oh crap, too late. I'm already in this. I already
8:24
have people reporting to me and I need to know
8:27
what some of those pitfalls are that they don't
8:29
want to be on the other end of somebody listening
8:31
to an episode about being a micromanager, bad
8:33
boss, toxic person. What are some of those pitfalls
8:36
that you most often see with managers? Yeah.
8:40
Thinking across all the managers that I had,
8:43
even ones that I liked in general, but still
8:47
got in the way for me feeling like I could really
8:49
do my best. I say that first because you made
8:52
the point, any of us are micromanaging on purpose.
8:55
We're not like, yeah, I'm gonna do that, right?
8:58
It's like, it's saying, I'm not something, I'm
9:00
not, a need is not being met for me, whether
9:03
that is because of your own stress or your own,
9:06
you know, wanting to feel a sense of control
9:08
over what's going on or because economic uncertainty,
9:11
whatever it looks like. And so we start to hold
9:13
on a little bit tighter. And there's a specific
9:16
set of things that I started to think about that
9:19
I saw over and over again. these three tells
9:22
that you're inadvertently, not on purpose, right?
9:25
Falling into this micromanagement trap. And these
9:28
are things that managers, behaviors they did
9:31
to me in corporate. And I say that because I
9:35
was a very high performer. I was a 10Xer. I was
9:38
the person you could go to for anything. I would
9:39
get it done right away. And still people micromanage,
9:43
right? And I say that because I think we need
9:46
to understand we might be doing this to our best
9:50
person just as likely as we might do be doing
9:53
this to our person who like barely can follow
9:55
instructions. And the problem is, is when you
9:58
micromanage your best person, because this is
9:59
what happened to me, they look at you like, well,
10:02
why am I even here? Like, nevermind. And you
10:05
can - You don't need me. You don't need me. Forget
10:07
it. And it is like, I think your, you know, your
10:11
lower performance might need a little bit of
10:13
handholding. Your high performers are going to
10:15
say, I'm done. And so not only is this something
10:18
to save yourself time, it is to like not lose
10:22
your best people because they feel like you don't
10:24
trust them or don't value them or just that you're
10:26
putting a ceiling on their possible growth, you
10:29
know? And so these three tells are, first is
10:32
when you are in every single meeting. And so
10:35
I remember at Google, I had a manager who, you
10:38
know, you couldn't even get 15 minutes with her
10:40
because she was drowning in meetings. Every single
10:43
day she was in meeting after meeting after meeting.
10:45
And you know, she would talk about it, you know,
10:47
a little bit, maybe almost like a point of pride,
10:49
like, I'm so busy. I'm so slammed. I'm, you know,
10:51
I don't have any time. And in fairness, like
10:54
when I needed something, she would carve out
10:56
time to talk to me. So again, very supportive,
10:59
like on paper, we got along very well. And she
11:02
was really encouraging of the work that I was
11:04
doing, but she was also in every single meeting,
11:07
the meetings I was in the meeting, the other
11:09
perform like employees were in. And that's the
11:12
first tell because when you're in every single
11:14
meeting, it is a signal that you are not trusting
11:18
your team to be able to handle like any conversation
11:20
without you. There's going to be some meetings
11:22
of course you need to be in but I think the first
11:25
piece of are you in every meeting and taking
11:28
a really honest look at your calendar probably
11:30
on a monthly or quarterly basis going through
11:33
all of your meetings and saying where could I
11:35
actually have another team member run this maybe
11:39
it's a client presentation for someone that's
11:41
a recurring client and they're really under they
11:43
know the team well. It's not maybe a new business
11:45
or maybe it's running a team meeting or like
11:48
a project team meeting where someone could share
11:51
the action items afterwards and catch you up.
11:54
So I'm not saying it's everything. But to get
11:56
out of this trap of having to be in every single
11:58
meeting, it's to start to identify where you
12:02
can step out. Now this is so important because
12:05
if you are there, even if your employees want
12:07
you to be there because you solve problems for
12:09
them, they're never going to be able to step
12:11
up. if you're always there. So you're going to
12:14
always have to be in all the meetings. And so
12:16
that's our first thing is being in every meeting
12:18
truly is micromanaging because you have not let
12:22
go enough. to let someone else, you know, try
12:26
it and maybe mess up or try it and actually do
12:29
even better than you would have been leading
12:30
this conversation. And so that's our first tell.
12:33
So like if you're wondering, how do I know? First
12:36
thing you got to look at your calendar and you're
12:37
like, oh, I've been 35 hours a week. Yes. Like
12:42
that's number one. Number two is very closely
12:45
related to this. It's that are you making every
12:48
decision? So employees come to you and they say,
12:51
I just want to run something by you. Or, you
12:53
know, hey, you know, I know we talked about this
12:55
already, but like, does this look right? And
12:57
it seems very harmless at first. Seems like a
12:59
gut check. They trust your opinion. They value
13:02
what you have to say. It doesn't feel like they,
13:05
you know, are afraid of you, right? So I, you
13:07
know, but it's similar to the meanings. If you're
13:10
making every single decision, there is a certain
13:13
level of distance your employees will take something.
13:15
and you will never be able to be out of that
13:17
role of the final improver. So it causes a number
13:19
of issues. One, if you step away and go on vacation
13:22
or, you know, are just offline for an hour, you're
13:24
gonna have a queue of like 18 decisions that
13:26
people were waiting on. So now you're losing
13:28
time, now you're losing money, now you're potentially
13:30
losing business, right, because of that. Or you're
13:33
losing, you know, if you work in a corporate
13:35
team, you're maybe missing a deadline or, you
13:37
know, you're holding up another team for moving
13:39
forward. So it creates a massive bottleneck.
13:42
But again, just like with the meetings, it prevents
13:44
your team from thinking, okay, how would I solve
13:47
this? Well, okay, I would do this. Thinking about
13:50
ideas, it prevents them from taking ownership
13:52
and saying, well, this is my project. I need
13:55
to figure out the decision. And so our solution
13:58
for that is to when your employees come to you
14:01
asking for you to make the call, flipping and
14:03
saying, what do you think? It's a simple question
14:06
or what would you try here? And if they say,
14:09
I don't know, it's too hard. Like, well, you
14:11
know, go talk to some other people what's worked
14:13
in the past and keep putting that accountability
14:15
ball back in their court. And they're gonna start
14:18
to build the muscle, right? This both puts the
14:20
ownership back on them and it shows them that
14:22
you trust them, right? So that's gonna be how
14:25
we solve the second one. Third sign that you're
14:28
a micromanager is, and this one is a little bit
14:31
controversial. Not everyone agrees with this.
14:34
When your employees are asking for more projects.
14:36
and you are not identifying anything to let go
14:40
of. This is also a sign that a high performer
14:44
is going to leave. And that's the controversial
14:46
part, because when I posted that on Instagram,
14:49
like I said, this is one of the biggest signs
14:52
a high performer is about to quit is when they
14:54
ask for more projects. And like 100 comments
14:56
said, if I'm quitting, I'm not asking for more
14:58
work. And I was like, okay, I said high performers,
15:00
sorry. And then second, I said, okay, well. The
15:05
reason this is both micromanaging and assigned
15:08
is because someone that is doing a good job that
15:12
wants to know there's a future for them is putting
15:14
their feelers out. And they're saying, hey, you
15:17
know, I want more responsibility here. I want
15:19
to take something more on. And they're looking
15:21
to how you answer this. Right. They're looking
15:24
to you. And so with this manager at Google that
15:27
was doing all three of these things on a daily
15:29
basis, I remember so vividly wrapping up a project
15:33
and I said to her, Hey, you know, I've got some
15:36
bandwidth. I'd love to, you know, take on, you
15:38
know, some more work here. And she said, oh,
15:41
that's so great. I'm so glad because I'm so busy.
15:43
I need help with this. Let me come back to you
15:44
in a few days. I'm going to think about what
15:46
would be really helpful. So I'm thinking, okay,
15:48
great. This is awesome. You know, maybe I can
15:50
get my work in front of the VP or whatever. She
15:52
comes back to me and says, okay, I really, again,
15:55
appreciate you, you know, saying that you could
15:57
help out with some stuff. I looked across everything
15:59
and, you know, we have this big meeting coming
16:01
up. I'd love for you to join and take the notes
16:03
in the meeting. And I'm like, what? That's it?
16:10
Like it was a slap in the face. And to me, like
16:14
that was the beginning of the end because like
16:16
that's literally what she can come up with. I
16:19
mean, this was, you know, six, seven years ago
16:21
before the AI note taker. So like somebody had
16:23
to take some. So like, this is just like wild.
16:25
Like that's what you're using your best person
16:28
for when they say like, let me help. Yeah. So
16:32
it's like, And then, and so when I thought about
16:35
these three patterns, all three of those were
16:38
about her, they weren't about me. And that's
16:40
why this is such an important conversation for
16:42
this episode is these are about our, as the leader,
16:48
like inability to let go of control. Not because
16:51
there's something wrong with us, but because
16:53
we might be worried again, like if we're not
16:55
at every meeting that something's gonna go wrong.
16:57
we might be worried if we're not in front of
16:59
the client that, you know, they're going to think
17:01
they got the B team or something. If we're not
17:03
in front of the VP, then they might ask a hard
17:06
question our team member can't field. So that
17:08
might be why we're in every meeting. If we're
17:11
making every decision, it might be because we
17:12
have a really junior team and they don't really
17:14
make the right calls yet, right? Or because we've
17:17
been burned before, right? And then with someone
17:19
asking for more work, we might be so busy, so
17:22
buried that we can't stop and think of what someone
17:24
would take on, even if we would love for them
17:26
to do it. And so all of these are really about
17:29
us as that leader. And so it's, and I share these
17:33
three tells because they don't feel like you're
17:36
micromanaging at the time. It just seems like
17:39
I'm busy and you're working, you're getting through
17:41
stuff. But each of those very, very specifically
17:45
prevent your team from taking more on and...
17:49
whether you like it or not, I'm telling you firsthand,
17:52
they tell your team members, I don't value you
17:56
enough to let you try this. I don't trust you
17:59
that you'll do the right thing. And I'm actually
18:03
like, I wanna control the information that's
18:05
going through this team. That's what they hear,
18:07
and it may not be true, right? So that's why
18:10
we wanted to make sure you know that, right?
18:12
Right. Oh, my gosh. That is so dead on. And it's
18:15
funny, as you're saying that, I can think of
18:17
people through my career, whether it was my managers
18:18
or just peers that I would see doing that. And
18:21
a lot of times, if they would start to be a little
18:24
bit aware of that, sometimes you hear, well,
18:25
I have high expectations or I need to be in the
18:28
know. There's all these excuses. And some of
18:30
it was somebody who wanted to continue to grow
18:32
in their career. But the reality is, when all
18:34
that's happening, you're not going to have the
18:36
ability to continue to grow, right? You're, as
18:40
a manager, part of how you're judged, graded,
18:42
is how successful your team is. So they're like,
18:44
oh, well, she hasn't created this culture of
18:47
high performers. It's like, OK, maybe she can't
18:49
go to the VP level or that next level. So thinking
18:53
that you're in control because of your high expectations
18:56
eventually is only going to get you to a certain
18:58
ceiling. And then that's it. Like, people will
19:01
realize you're not ready for that next level
19:03
because no one's doing this. by themselves. Yeah
19:06
it's so true and I think it's the the definition
19:11
of success changes when you become a leader and
19:14
like you just called out that is one of the shifts
19:17
that no one preps you for either and I think
19:19
that's the problem too is we can be great at
19:22
the doing at the executing at the you know tactical
19:25
piece and if we don't know how to like get results
19:28
through other people and show other people how
19:32
to do that, like you mentioned with the sales
19:33
leader that becomes a sales manager, it really
19:36
does start to reflect on us like we actually
19:37
don't know how to do that. And it will become
19:40
the beginning of the end on our own growth. And
19:42
I think it can, it does feel like the rug got
19:46
pulled out from under you, right? The literal
19:48
definition of success has changed and you have
19:51
to think about, okay, well, what... What does,
19:55
how do you measure success in this situation?
19:57
One of the tools I have in my book, The New Manager
19:59
Playbook is actually thinking about like, what
20:03
is your identity as a manager? What are the qualities
20:06
that you wanna embody? How do you wanna show
20:08
up as a leader? And it's not just when things
20:10
are going well, but you know, what do you, how
20:13
do you wanna show up when everything is going
20:15
wrong and you're stressed and you're frustrated
20:17
and there's a reorg or layoffs coming. And the
20:20
reason that I encourage folks to do this exercise,
20:22
and it's like the first or second chapter of
20:24
the book, is because I think we get this role,
20:28
we jump right in, we just kind of like are doing,
20:31
doing, doing, and then something big happens.
20:34
And if we had thought about like how, like let's
20:39
say the quality I want to embody is being really
20:41
transparent and compassionate. Like let's say
20:43
that really stands out to me because I believe
20:46
that You need the information you need to do
20:48
your job well. And of course, I want to be compassionate.
20:50
I want people to feel safe, you know, coming
20:51
to me. If I've identified those qualities, okay,
20:54
that's great when everything's going well. But
20:56
how do I show up with transparency when I know
20:59
there's layoffs coming? Do I cancel all my meetings?
21:03
Do I avoid my team? No, right? I say, hey, here's
21:07
the knowns, here's the unknowns, here's what
21:08
I'm able to share right now. It gives you a,
21:11
like a north star for how to communicate when
21:13
you feel like completely, you know, I don't know
21:16
what to do here. Same thing with compassionate.
21:18
You know, it's great when everyone's doing a
21:19
great job, but how do you show up compassionately
21:22
when someone has a terrible attitude or someone
21:25
keeps being out sick and having another excuse
21:28
and you don't believe anything they're telling
21:29
you. And it's like you're, you feel frustrated
21:31
about the situation. or someone made a huge mistake
21:35
and it lost a client or it like blew a deadline.
21:38
How do you still show up that way? That's why
21:41
we got to start there, you know, and I think
21:44
that's why that's so important is because showing
21:48
up consistently, even when it's hard, that's
21:51
what builds trust because trust is reinforced
21:54
through predictability. Oh, you know, I get the
21:56
same Leah on Thursday as I get on Monday. she
21:59
doesn't think sometimes it's okay to start the
22:01
meeting at nine and then it's 9 15 other days
22:04
and then when I show up at 9 15 she's mad at
22:05
me or sometimes it's okay if this deadline is
22:08
flexible and then the next time it's not when
22:10
we show up erratically because we haven't thought
22:13
about it that makes your team feel like lag I
22:16
don't know who I'm getting and then that creates
22:20
a sense of like a lack of safety you know and
22:23
and and that can cause people to feel like well
22:26
I don't really know how to be successful here
22:28
and that causes all sorts of issues, right? So
22:31
I think that's a really like a starting point,
22:34
I think, no matter how long you've been a leader,
22:37
whether it's new or you've been doing it for
22:38
decades, to really think about what are one or
22:42
two qualities that I really want to embody, especially
22:45
when it's hard, and then run through some scenarios
22:48
of what does that look like when this quality
22:51
is really being put to the test? And then that's
22:54
going to give you a lot of information about
22:56
how to show up consistently to your team. I love
22:59
that. And you're so right. It's when things aren't
23:01
all sunshine and roses, right? Like it's easy
23:04
to be the cheerleader, rah -rah kind of leader
23:06
a lot of times and maybe reinforce positive behavior,
23:09
all that. Some of that comes more naturally than
23:12
others. But when stuff is tough and hard and
23:14
just messy, which is happening to a lot of people
23:17
right now, right? Like it's a very difficult
23:20
time. How are you having those genuine support,
23:23
conversations, transparency, consistency, all
23:25
the things? which I would assume, and I think
23:28
it's totally fair that most leaders aren't stopping
23:30
and thinking about because you're running a million
23:32
miles an hour, right? You're just getting things
23:34
done, trying to be in survival mode, which totally
23:37
understand, but it is taking that step back and
23:40
just sitting there and being intentional about
23:42
like, okay, how do I want people to describe
23:44
me as a leader? Like, I love that. That's actually
23:46
good, easy exercise to do. Yeah, absolutely.
23:50
So what is another big area of opportunity for
23:54
managers that they seem to get tripped up on
23:57
micromanaging, as I said, number one topic. Yeah,
24:00
yeah. But what else do we see where managers
24:02
sort of lose that focus that impacts how they
24:05
manage their team? Yeah, I think, you know, and
24:07
we touched on it a little bit, like, I think
24:09
we can fall into the micromanaging when you feel
24:12
like, I don't want to micromanage butt, right?
24:16
And so there's this open -ended sentence of like,
24:20
but nobody's listening, I'm repeating myself
24:22
many times, it's faster to myself, blah, blah,
24:24
blah, right? And so I think that's the place
24:28
to look at what's on the other end of that sentence.
24:31
Like, because you're gonna get some information,
24:34
is it that, and I actually just did an episode
24:37
this week on my podcast, Managing Made Simple,
24:40
about the feeling that we have to micromanage
24:42
or we can't delegate because your team doesn't
24:45
feel a sense of urgency, right? And so you may
24:48
not micromanage you don't want to micromanage
24:50
but when you ask someone to do something you
24:53
think it's like a quick task and they go on it
24:56
and then they never finish it or it's like a
24:57
week later and you're like what happened to that
24:59
so then you say okay I guess I should just do
25:01
it myself so that's the the but you know looking
25:05
at that because with the sense of urgency and
25:10
I'll walk through this in a second that's a very
25:12
specific set of actions you can do to fix that
25:14
if you say but nobody's really you know trained
25:19
enough to do it. Now you can introduce training,
25:21
but gosh, I think I've hired the wrong person.
25:24
Now you can start to look at, are they a fit?
25:27
Do they need performance management? Is it training?
25:30
We've got to look at what the reason that's blocking
25:33
us or justifying micromanaging because on the
25:37
other side of that is like every single thing
25:40
has a potentially different path. And so if you
25:42
bucket it all together and be like, I don't want
25:44
to micromanage, but my team just like isn't there.
25:49
It's too broad of a reason and you can't solve
25:52
it. So you're just gonna keep micromanaging.
25:55
So let's start with, I don't wanna micromanage,
25:58
but when I ask my team to do something, they
26:01
say, yeah, I'm gonna do it. And then nobody does
26:03
anything for days. And so I'm like, okay, I guess
26:05
I should do that. Or I reassign it to someone
26:06
else and then they're mad. So that is solved
26:11
through three things. First, Not just asking
26:15
someone, hey, can you send out the client report
26:17
or hey, can you follow up with Sarah on that?
26:19
First is adding a deadline. I know it's very
26:22
simple, but a lot of times we think it's obvious
26:24
that it needs to be right away, right? Because
26:26
you're the boss and you ask them and then your
26:28
employee has other stuff on their list and they're
26:30
like, okay, cool. I'll get to that when I get
26:31
to it. So saying, hey, can you follow up with
26:34
Sarah on where the deck is at by three o 'clock
26:37
today, by Thursday end of day, by Tuesday? That
26:42
little deadline, has so much power because now
26:47
you're putting a time constraint against it.
26:50
Even if you felt like it was very obvious that
26:52
it was important, add the deadline. Second piece
26:55
is add some context behind the deadline so that
26:58
it doesn't feel arbitrary. Again, may feel like
27:01
as a leader you don't have to explain this, but
27:03
it helps. So saying, hey, can you follow up with
27:05
Sarah on the client presentation by Thursday
27:07
afternoon? We've got to send it to the client
27:10
by Thursday. by Friday morning so that they can
27:12
review it and come back with questions. So now
27:15
you've introduced like a context and a bit of
27:18
a conflict if they miss that deadline, like this
27:21
is important, hello, right? So, and then third,
27:26
asking an open -ended question, we good, or even
27:30
a yes or no, is that doable? What has to move
27:32
off your plate to make that possible? You are
27:34
giving them a final opportunity to say like,
27:37
yes, I've got it, I will do it by then. And so
27:42
it's like, this can be a five minute conversation,
27:45
hand it off with the date, with the context on
27:47
why the date matters, asking, yep, we're good.
27:49
That's how you create a shared sense of urgency.
27:52
Like I didn't just throw some random bunch of
27:55
tasks on your list. This is important. This is
27:58
why I'm giving you a chance to say, can you do
28:01
it or not? Or what risks do you see? And it only
28:03
takes five minutes. And so you don't have to,
28:06
so that's going to solve that whole bucket of
28:09
why, I wouldn't micromanage if everyone just
28:12
like did something faster when I asked, you know?
28:14
And like, I literally made this episode this
28:16
week because my client that I met with on Friday
28:19
said, and we went through like, what is his biggest
28:22
frustration with his team? Is that, you know,
28:25
he's thinking about work, you know, 24 hours
28:27
a day and nobody else is and it's frustrating
28:30
because when he asked the simplest things, they're
28:32
like, cool, I'll get to it. And he has to follow
28:34
up a hundred times. Right. And that is the easiest
28:38
way to solve, I would say, 80 % of those cases.
28:42
I couldn't agree with that more. And I would
28:43
love to add one other piece to that, too, that
28:45
I've learned by messing up is being really clear
28:48
of who's accountable for it. If you're in a team
28:50
setting, I would have, say, a leadership meeting
28:53
where there is a project that multiple people
28:55
are touching in certain ways. Maybe it's a sales,
28:57
ops, marketing kind of project. And I would think
29:00
it was very clear of who was doing what, and
29:02
then a week would go by and it was like crickets,
29:04
right? And it was like, well, this was supposed
29:06
to be due this week. Well, I thought so and so
29:07
was doing this. Okay, well, I want one person
29:09
who I'm coming to that's accountable. I understand
29:11
there's a lot of collaboration, teamwork, awesome,
29:14
but at the end of the day, like one person has
29:17
to be accountable when you're doing those checkups
29:18
and nothing's moved. Exactly, exactly. So how
29:22
much of our issues as managers comes down to
29:25
communication and having hard conversations or
29:28
just being really clear like how much of it really
29:30
is a communication maybe a hundred percent Yeah,
29:36
I would say all of it, right? Because whether
29:39
it's a system or a process or a framework for
29:43
a hard conversation or like we just walked through
29:45
that three or four step, right? Having that named
29:48
owners will be the fourth step of that urgency
29:50
piece. Those are all communication moments. And
29:54
the truth is I think right now with AI and kind
29:59
of like using it to build out a plan and a message
30:01
for your team, I think a lot of... leaders are
30:05
overusing, you know, kind of quick things that
30:09
they've worked through with AI and sending it
30:11
in an email to their employees or slacking them
30:13
in. And it's like, communication isn't just the
30:16
words. It's just, it's not. It's all the follow
30:19
through. It's having the conversation. It's what
30:21
we just talked about asking. Are we good can
30:25
you do this looking at their facial expression
30:27
are they nodding but looking like they're about
30:29
to throw up right are they like are they do they
30:31
look mad that you've added to their list is it
30:34
like you know there's there's so much more there
30:37
and I wanna really remind everyone listening
30:39
that all of the miscommunications that we have
30:42
are like not all but like a huge you know majority
30:46
are because. we've tried to go faster, we've
30:50
shortcut it, maybe with AI, maybe with short
30:52
sending an email and not checking in. And like,
30:54
if you take that five minutes upfront, where
30:58
you maybe get the team around for a huddle, maybe
31:01
you communicate a hard message through a video
31:03
so they can hear your tone. Maybe you check in
31:05
with folks for 15 minutes after something, maybe,
31:08
you know, just like introducing more ways to
31:11
have humanness into communication. You find you
31:16
have saved so much more time. Yeah, right. Because
31:19
the back and forth is actually what causes so
31:21
much time and the disconnects and two people
31:22
working on the wrong things and whatever. So
31:24
it's all communication. And when I work with
31:29
corporate teams on manager development or running
31:31
off sites or leadership in general, that is what
31:35
all the strategies are about is how do we understand
31:39
what is going on with our team, how we're showing
31:41
up and really to bridge the two together. Same
31:43
thing working with business owners and founders.
31:46
I work in, it's a fractional COO capacity, so
31:49
it's operations, but it's what our team systems,
31:53
they are processes that are reinforced through
31:56
communication. So it's not enough that we put
31:59
all our tasks in a sauna, it's how are we making
32:02
sure we're having conversations about when something
32:06
is late, or there's another priority that seems
32:08
just as important, right? It's like every communication
32:11
that needs to happen to support the systems.
32:13
So that's what I implement with business owners
32:15
is. Interesting. Yeah. Like, or, okay, you've
32:19
outlined, okay, this is a performance review.
32:21
You talk about, you know, wins or whatever, errors,
32:23
improvement, and then goals. Okay. But like,
32:25
what does that conversation look like? What if
32:27
your employee thought they did a great job and
32:29
you didn't think they did? Or vice versa, right?
32:31
You know what I mean? The worst. Yeah. It's just
32:33
not about kind of like the what. It's about the
32:37
how and how that message is being received. those
32:41
moments, those communication like beats are very,
32:45
very fast. They can be in 15 or 30 minute increments.
32:49
Like I mentioned that, you know, getting on the
32:51
same page on urgency is a five minute conversation.
32:53
I think it's not to be afraid of talking to our
32:56
teams or having empowering our managers to talk
32:59
to their employees or asking for feedback. That's
33:03
where everything just gets easier by opening
33:05
those doors. No, that's so great. And you know,
33:08
I've dealt with people on my team who maybe weren't
33:10
great managers when you try to have those conversations.
33:12
And I remember one person being like, well, I
33:14
have one on ones every week with my people. And
33:16
it's like, Okay, that's checking the box. Right.
33:20
But what are you talking about in those one -on
33:22
-ones? Exactly. How are you having the conversations?
33:24
Are you being clear in communication? So again,
33:27
going back to the meetings piece of it, just
33:29
because that's happening or you have it on your
33:31
calendar doesn't mean you're using that time
33:33
appropriately or supporting the person in a way
33:35
that is going to make sure that things are moving
33:37
forward. So it's really looking at how you're
33:39
engaging and interacting with your team and communicating.
33:43
Obviously, you're right, 100 % comes down to
33:45
communication, which is so hard, right? Because
33:48
everyone's different. How somebody wants to be
33:51
communicated to, how they receive it, how they
33:53
perceive it, all the things, right? So that's
33:56
why I think management is so important. difficult
33:58
and how you treat one person. I mean, you want
34:01
some form of consistency, but at the same time,
34:03
everyone's a little different in how they respond.
34:05
So it's trying to find the way or the playbook
34:08
essentially of pulling that all together. So
34:11
if someone's listening to this and they're like,
34:12
holy shit, I saw some flags with the manager
34:17
or the micromanager. I'm not sure of my communication,
34:20
right? And I think great step one is identifying
34:23
that, right? But if someone's listening to this
34:25
thinking like, oh man, I think I have some work
34:27
to do. how do you move forward without feeling
34:29
overwhelmed? And of course, no magic wand, not
34:31
gonna be manager of the year the next two weeks.
34:34
So what are those initial steps look like? Yeah,
34:37
I think first step would be to think about that
34:40
manager intention, get that North Star, right?
34:42
And this is literally identifying. let's say
34:45
two qualities that embody what are leaders that
34:49
you admire that you really want to show up like
34:51
and that are authentic to you. So maybe you like
34:54
Steve Jobs, but you're like, I don't want to
34:56
be Steve Jobs, right? Not a good manager, I don't
34:59
think, right? Not a good manager, right? But
35:00
it's like, hey, I want people to feel inspired.
35:04
Maybe that's the quality that you kind of resonated
35:07
from that. So thinking about what are What are
35:11
two like kind of behavior related qualities that
35:14
embody how you want to show up and think about
35:16
what that looks like and Maybe share that with
35:19
your team and say hey, you know I've done some
35:21
reflecting and this is really how I want to show
35:24
up for you as a manager Can can you hold me accountable
35:27
that well you share feedback if I'm not doing
35:29
that, you know And and I want this to be, you
35:32
know collaborative That I think is a conversation
35:34
like nobody's having so I would say that's a
35:38
really I think that's a good place to start on
35:41
just your own personal reflections And then I
35:44
love your point. I think the next piece is to
35:47
think about the existing communication moments
35:51
that you have with your employees, probably one
35:53
-on -ones, team meetings, and maybe it's career
35:56
conversations if you're having that, where are
35:58
you getting to understand your employees' goals
36:01
and their long -term vision for themselves. Thinking
36:05
about those, let's say, three opportunities and
36:08
saying, how am I using this time? in one -on
36:12
-ones to your example, are we going through just
36:15
status updates, things that I could have looked
36:16
at in email or just like reading through Slack?
36:19
Am I using that as an opportunity to get to know
36:21
this person, to hear what they're excited about,
36:24
to see where they're getting stuck? And in the
36:27
new manager playbook in my book, I share agenda
36:29
templates for these types of meetings because
36:31
I think it can be easy to just think, well, I'm
36:34
busy, I need to know the status of the project,
36:36
so I'm gonna use this meeting for that. But there's...
36:39
When we structure these conversations as a way
36:41
to learn about your team, build rapport, understand
36:44
how they think, now we can use those for other
36:49
things that are really going to help them. If
36:51
we understand what they're excited about, that
36:52
makes us delegating a lot easier. because you
36:55
can connect, you know, hey, I know, you know,
36:58
you're really interested in leading a team one
37:01
day. So I'd love for you to take over the onboarding
37:04
process because it allows you to get experience
37:06
working with new hires and helping them feel,
37:08
you know, acclimated. You can connect the dots
37:11
so much more easily. And so you have these moments
37:16
built in where you can get to know your team.
37:18
I think that would be another place I would start
37:20
is like, Use the existing structure and just
37:23
improve it, you know, make it a little bit, you
37:25
know, more beneficial for both of you. Oh, I
37:28
love that. That's so great. Well, and I know
37:29
we're just scratching the surface. So if people
37:31
want to learn more about your work and the Manager
37:34
Playbook, where can they connect with you? Yeah.
37:36
Learn more about me and my work at leagarvon
37:38
.com. And if you're like, hey, I'd love to get
37:41
some support. I don't know what this looks like.
37:43
If it's manager coaching or training or support
37:46
with your team operations, head to leagarvon
37:48
.com slash call. And that'll link you to where
37:52
you can schedule some time. And we just walk
37:53
through like where are you getting stuck? And
37:56
so I think that's That's the best place. Yeah,
37:58
leahgarvin .com slash call. Perfect. Awesome.
38:00
Well, thank you so much, Leah, for being here.
38:02
And thank you for helping to make people better
38:03
managers. Thank you. OK. Did anything in that
38:07
conversation make you think, oh, crap, I think
38:10
I do that? If it did, that's just useful information.
38:13
You can't change a habit you haven't noticed.
38:16
What stuck with me is how easily we can confuse
38:19
being involved with being supportive. We're in
38:22
every meeting. We're answering every question.
38:24
We're making sure everything gets done. But are
38:27
we giving our people a chance to grow or making
38:30
sure they'll always need us? So this week, pick
38:34
one thing. One meeting someone else can lead.
38:36
One decision you can hand back by asking, I don't
38:39
know, what do you think? Or one one -on -one
38:42
where you spend less time collecting updates
38:44
and more time understanding what that person
38:47
wants to do next. You don't have to overhaul
38:50
your management by Monday, but just start with
38:53
one change and follow through. You can find Leah
38:56
and her book, The New Manager Playbook, through
38:58
the links in the show notes. And if you're getting
39:00
something out of Loud and Lifted, please follow
39:03
the show wherever you listen so the next episode
39:05
finds its way to you. And if a manager came to
39:09
mind while you were listening, send her the episode,
39:11
maybe with a little context so it doesn't feel
39:13
like an anonymous performance review. Thanks
39:16
for listening. Until next time, stay loud and
39:19
keep lifting.