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Star Wars: Maul - Shadow Lord · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the net, Pulty, you're listening to drack FM.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: I want to join in the conversation and share your
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: thoughts on this episode.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: Join the Babel.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: Conference, our listeners discussion group on Facebook. Just ty B
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: A B E l into the fixed book search field
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: and we look forward to seeing you there. Hi. This
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: is Nick and Nostasiu, lead editor and writer on Mal
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: shadow Lord. And you're listening to Aggressive Negotiations. Well, hello,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and welcome to Aggressive Negotiations and TFM's local watering hole
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: for a crossover that you have been waiting for for
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: a very long time. I am just one of the
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: hosts here, Matthew Rushing, and I'm so excited to be
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: on this crossover adventure with none other than Jedi Master
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: John Mills. John, are you ready to dive into the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: richness that is Mall shadow Lord tonight?
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: Master Rushing? I was born ready for this moment. I
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: didn't realize how ready I was until I watched that show.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: But yes, I am ready, I am willing and I
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: am able to discuss Mall shadow Lord.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: That is just great news. I can't wait to dive
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: into this show. It's so rich. Of course, before we
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: do we're crossing over here with aggressive negotiations as well
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: as the six oh two Club, and so you can
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: find us on ex Twitter at either the Jedi Masters
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: or the six oh two Club. We are on Instagram
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: at the six oh two Club, TFM as well as
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: the Nerd Party. You can find us on our websites
• 1:52
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• 1:57
  Speaker 2: You can also find us on Facebook at Facebook dot
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: com slash track FM or Facebook at Facebook dot com
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: slash the Nerd Party. And of course both of the
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: shows would we would humbly request and would be honored
• 2:13
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• 2:16
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• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Plus make sure you're following both of the shows subscribed
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and that way the episodes
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: come to you as soon as they drop. John, I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: don't really think this is a show where we need
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: to talk about what our anticipation level was or any
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: of those things, because it was through the roof New
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Star Wars animation was coming, and in all honesty, I
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: feel like we just have so much to be able
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: to dive into with these ten episodes and so Maul
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: coming back and his introduction, and we you know, we're
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: coming into the space where we know what the end
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: of Mal's story is. We've seen that in Rebels, right,
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: we've seen bits of what his life was like a
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: little bit beyond this. In Solo, we know what happened
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: with everything at the end of the Clone Wars and
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: so this picking up about three years after that and
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: showing his slow rise back to some sort of power
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: is such an interesting story. And so I just wanted
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: to start by talking about the idea of where Mal
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: is when we meet him now, and what is it
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: about like him as a character that just makes it
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: interesting to come back into his life specifically at this point.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: I will go ahead, I'll order I'll answer in sort
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: of like reverse order on that one. Where I think
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: the reason it's right and you know, correct to have
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: a mall focused show at this point and focus on
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: this point of his life is because he's the main
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: character in Clone Wars, in Phantom Menace, in Solo, in Rebels,
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: he's anything from bit player to supporting cast, and he's
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: always been a very fascinating character, but his arc has
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: always been in the context of other people's arcs Mal
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: in relation to Ezra Mal revealed as the head of
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: Crimson Dawn Mal in support of, you know, essentially the
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: Emperor's grand plan by taking over Mandelor, and he thought
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: he had main character energy, but he wasn't the main character.
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: This is Mall as main character. This is what I think.
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: This is one of those things where it scratches an
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: itch people don't realize they had with Mal, where we
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: want to see him as the character we're following, because
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: we haven't gotten that driver's seat perspective with Maul up
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: to this point, and so I think that's a very
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: satisfying way to go into it, and in terms of
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: using him in this time period, it answers a lot
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: of questions that we still have about how the Empire
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: itself built itself and how it went about instituting its
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: reign of terror when Vader's still learning how to move
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: in a robot body and the Emperor hasn't fully revealed
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: himself as a complete monster because he's behind the scenes
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: making the politics and the political machine work for him
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: so that he doesn't have to use force. And I
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: think it's very interesting as well because this show also
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: picks up right off with Mal fully aware darth Cidius
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: wants to kill me, but darth Cidius didn't want to
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: kill him in the Clone Wars, our Ossidius wanted him
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: causing that problem. So it's also interesting to come to
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: him here where he said, where he's mature enough to realize, oh,
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: I even served my usefulness as a pawn to get
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: Palpatine to power. Palpatine wants to clean house completely, and
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: Maul is one of those tokens where it's like, Okay,
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: you're no longer useful, but we know that Maul will
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: be useful, so we know that that's embedded in the
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: journey as well. He will ultimately be useful to the
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Empire as a creator of problems as it were. So yeah,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: I think all of that's so well said as to
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: why we would come into this space in Maul's life,
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: and as I've been thinking about the show and just
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: the realities of the character and where he is, you know,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: his desire for revenge against Sidius and the Empire for
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: what they've done unto him basically, uh, and you know
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: his abandonment bisidious in so many ways. What I love
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: about I think you know him as a character is that.
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: He is.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: You know, there are very very few people at least
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: that we get to see in Star Wars where they
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: know and see Palpatine as being evil, the Empire as
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: being evil. They're just not a ton of people in
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: the galaxy at this point who feel like that, right.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: We know Baiale Organa is one of them. We know
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: man Mathma is one of them. There are others, of course,
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: you know, the Jedi who still are surviving. You know,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: at this point we don't know how many of them
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: there are. But you know, Maul is one of the
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: first people that we meet in the Star Wars story
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: who just truly want to do something about it, though,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: which I find to be really fascinating. And in some
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: ways he's like this own proto rebellion in and of himself,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: and his goal is to bring down the Empire. And
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: so what I love in this is that there's a
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: spirit there that is going to continue. And yet there's
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: nothing altruistic necessarily about the reasons mal has right. The
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: desire to bring down the Empire and Citius is great,
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: but his actual reasoning for that is extremely flawed and
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: very selfish, you know, as the character is. And I
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: find that to be a really interesting thing because you know,
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: we're so used to so many of the characters that
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: we meet along the way wanting to do the right
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: thing for the right reason, you know, and Mal kind
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: of wants to do the right thing here, but for
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: the wrong reasons. And I really find that to be
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: kind of an interesting perspective to be able to explore.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: I would actually tag onto that and counter with the
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: idea that Mal doesn't want to do the right thing,
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: Maul wants to do a thing. Mal is a great
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: Sith because he is purely selfish. He embodies that completely.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: But I think what it is is what we see
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: is Mal is a chaos agent, and as a result
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: he we're getting another demonstration of why Mal could never
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: be the Lord of the Sith. He would have never
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: beaten Sidious the way he was supposed to. So in
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: a sense, I think it's fascinating because Maul winds up
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: being another failed apprentice of Sidius's. Every apprentice we see
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: Citious have fails miserably, and that in and of itself
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: expose I think Sidious as a very flawed Sith lord.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: He's not the right sith Lord, which is a fascinating
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: thing to peel apart. I just I think that Bender
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: jumping the gun there. I think that Mal is if
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: anybody has seen Futurama, he's Bender who has a great
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: line in an episode of Futurama where he's laying there
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: and he says, I didn't mean to help anyone or
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: hurt anyone. Mal doesn't intend to do anything except get revenge.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: He wants to topple the Empire simply to do it,
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: and you know he doesn't have This is why he's
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: so sisyphian is. If he ever did get the boulder
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: up to the top of the hill, or if he's
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: he's like the Joker, if he ever caught the car,
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: he wouldn't know what to do with it. He'd be
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: completely confused about what to do. Mal can't win because
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: he doesn't know how to win. He doesn't know why
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: he would win. He's just doing And he may have
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: machinations to a certain point, but in terms of like
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: a grand design, it taps out at a certain point.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: He doesn't have a sidious level mentality. But he is
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: another failed apprentice as a result of Sidius's.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean That's that's interesting.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: I think I think we do kind of slightly disagree
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: on this, which and this isn't one of those things
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: where it's like neither of us like the show. I
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: just think I think I read it differently. I think
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: I see mal as being a character who has kind
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: of has you know, we even see it in the series.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: You know, he has this new respect for the Jedi.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: I think he even has a new respect for the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: Republic and all that was lost because there's this it
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: almost seems like there's this realization in him is like, oh,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: this is what we were after. Like I don't this
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: isn't what I want, Like this is I this if
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: this is what Cidious was after, this is not what
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I want, you know. And yes, I do think, like
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: you're saying, there is a true sense of him just
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: being utterly selfish in many ways. But I there's something
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: about him I think flows throughout the series, which is that,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: because of his abandonment issues with Sidious, there's a sense
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: to where he longs to try and do things differently
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: than Sidious did, except that the only tools in his
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: toolbox are to basically end up doing things the way
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: Citius did because he doesn't have the ability to kind
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: of see beyond or reach beyond, and I think he's
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: kind of like stuck in that. And part of it,
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: I think is the brokenness that we even see him
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: having experienced, you know, with almost dying and all that
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: and so, but yeah, there's just I think it's really
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: interesting to watch him be this character where I don't,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: at least from his perspective, I think there there is
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: this thought process of like there being kind of like
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: more of a right thing to do, but he just
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't have the ability to to do that in a
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: way that anybody would see as the right thing to do,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: if that makes sense.
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's no doubt. I mean, he suffered
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: tremendous abuse and bad parenting basically through his whole life,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: and he's a product of that, and so the tools
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: in his toolbox, like you're saying, are limited. He's he's
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: had a really unfortunate life. Like I think that's one
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: of the brilliant things about his arc through this show
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: is it gives you a sense of sympathy for what
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: happened to him. I Mean, repeatedly, we keep looking at
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: different characters and it's like sidious is the only one
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: that we're never asked to have any sympathy for. Like
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: he's he is the problem. He's even if you extend
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: it to the sequel trilogy, he is the problem. He's
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: the reason that sorrow exists through this entire saga. He's
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: the ultimate evil, obviously. But I don't know that we're
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: disagreeing so much as I think there's just some some
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: some nuance to which facet we're seeing or we're seeing
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: it from, because I'm just seeing it from the angle
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: that Mal is just like I think we would agree
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Vader or even Dooku. Mal is incapable of being as
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: like he's. He's evil because he's selfish, right, he's pity
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: because he's been wronged. And I think, you know, back
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: to Rebels, in his dying moment, he doesn't say to
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Obi Wan, he'll avenge me, He'll avenge you. He says
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: he'll avenge he says, will he avenge us. Maul at
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: the end of his life has that clarity to say,
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: we've all been wronged. And I think that in the
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: context of this show, Maul very much wants to be
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: in control. I think this is Maul's last last grasp
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: at truly finding a way forward for himself. Yeah.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: Well, and as we're talking here, I think one of
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: the most interesting aspects of this, right is that you know,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: so much has been made in conversation for fans ever
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: since the prequel trilogy and learning about the Jedi Order
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: and how they, you know, took younglings at a very
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: young age to train at the Jedi Temple away from
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: their families, right, And I think the most interesting aspect
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: of this is is that we see just how great
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Jedi life was compared to Sith life. Being a Syth
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: apprentice taken from your family very young was like being
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: in the worst abusive relationship you could ever possibly imagine, right,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: And I think, oh my god, there's something just really
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: beautiful about us actually getting the opportunity. And this is
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: where I think when Maul says that, you know, to
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: have respect for the Jedi, I think that's one of
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: the things in his brain he's realizing, is that actually
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: the Jedi weren't the bad guys they they actually, you know,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: they shouldn't have necessarily been the people he was fighting.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: And and I really like that juxtaposition between you know,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: the life of the Sith and the life of the Jedi.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: But see, you know what you just unlocked for me
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: by talking about the fact that we see the moment
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: in flashback of when Maul was taken. He's taken at
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: a young age like Anakin was. And we also know
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: enough of Douku's background to know that Douku knows of
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: his royal lineage on Sereno. That's why he's account. He
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: knows enough about that family life. I think this winds
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: up supporting and I'll I'll give the team that put
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: this show together credit because there's no way this didn't
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: enter into their brain. It's showing how the Jedi, while
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: we might have recoiled at the idea of them taking children,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: the Jedi were right about family attachment because Mal's first
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: memory that conjures up is the traumatic separation from his brother,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: and Anakin's first memory, well not first memory, but like
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Anakin's first moment, like formative moment for us, is his
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: traumatic separation from his mother. And so maybe that's that's
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: sort of showing how that's why Palpatine knew that Anakin
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: would be a ripe plum for the picking, because oh oh,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: they took him at the same age I took Maul
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: oh Yatzi good. I know this kid is prime. I
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: can I can work with this because I did this.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: That's interesting. You just unlocked that for me. That wow,
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: that opens up a whole bunch of stuff.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, interesting, I'm you know, it was one of
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: those things whereas you were talking, it just came clear
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: to me in my mind. It's one of the things that,
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: you know, just makes podcasting so fun and talking with
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: friends about these shows like this is because there is
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: so much depth and we know that the people behind
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the show are working diligently to bring all these pieces together.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: And again they're doing exactly what George said, is it
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: rhymes right? There are rhymes within rhymes, and I think,
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you know, there's a real beauty in that because you know,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: one of the things that we see here is that
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: you know, every time that Maul speaks to Devon, he
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: is speaking to her about her and his relationship he
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: longs to have with her as her master and her
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: being the apprentice. Yet at the same time, he's also
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: just speaking about himself about seeing things from a new perspective,
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: what we do to survive the fragility of institutions, a
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: stolen future, squandered gifts, and the need to survive. Like
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: every single thing that he will say to Devon every
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: conversation they have is him not only priming the pump
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: in her to have her turn, but it's also a
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: peek into his soul and where he's been and what
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: he's been thinking and what he's been learning, especially in
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: these last three years of trying to survive, right, And
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: you know, his main goal now is to find a
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: weapon that will help him bring down Sidious because he
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: know he can't do it by himself. In fact, he realizes,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: I think, especially by the end of this season, just
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: to how far he is from being able to bring
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: down somebody like a Sidious, Right, because of the experience
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: he has with Vader. He's just not good enough anymore.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And part of that is because part of him is broken. Literally,
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: his body just doesn't work the same as it used to.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: And so therefore, you know, he needs an apprentice who
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: will be stronger than him, the same way Sidious wanted
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: an apprentice who could surpass him.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: And I didn't even think think about it that while
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Vader is fighting Mall, they're both half machine, right, exactly
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: because of what they went through at the hands of
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: Obi Wan. So it's two obi Wan Kenobi survivors going
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: at each other. I mean, I knew that part of it,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: but like it's actually funny. One I hate obi Wan
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Kenobi club exactly, Like wait a minute, obi Wan did
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: that to you? Obi Wan did this to me? Beer No,
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: but like that that even unlocks that gives how mindless
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: when Vader comes at him, Like Vader should have made
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: a play for Mall, like listen, look what happened to us,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: but together would be even better. Oh wow, that's a
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: whole thing.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: And I think, so this is the thing that's so
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: interesting about that, right, And we'll talk about Vader later,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: but I think it's really important to say this now
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: in the context of mal Vader has accepted who he
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: is now as mostly machine and found a way to
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: utilize that to his benefit. Mal is still trying to
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: do the same thing he always did and this will
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: and we know that to be the case because it's
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: literally going to play out in his end. When Mall
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: has his end with obi Wan Kenobi on the you know,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: the planes of Tattooine, he literally tries the exact same
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: move he used on Qui Gon and obi Wan is
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: ready because obi Wan has learned and grown and changed
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: and matured. Mal can't and doesn't do that. He just
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: is incapable. He's he's like all of us, and so
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: many of us, I think, have had this experience in
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: our lives, right where like man, we need to get
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: past something in our lives, and yet we find ourselves
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: doing the same thing over and over and over again.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And if we're blessed, we get past it, right. We
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: find a way with help from others or you know,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: spiritual help or therapy or whatever it is, to finally
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: get past And Mal just can't do that. And I
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: think that's what's fascinating.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Well at a certain point for Maul in specific. I'm
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: not saying this about everybody, but like for mall In specific,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: it's he needs the humility to admit that he can't
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: do it on his own. Mal's incapable of doing that.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: But that's interesting because when you pair it with Devin,
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: he is, to your point at least recognizing now that
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: he needs a second. He needs somebody else. That is
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: more than a rook, is more than a Mandalorian, is
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: more than anybody else could be. It needs to be
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: somebody like him that can be molded, that can use
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: the force that he can turn toward a certain end.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and this is I think the thing is
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: that he doesn't realize, right, is that if he hadn't
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: betrayed Doki and he had joined Doki and Devin, they
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: could have found a way doing things the right way
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: to try and bring down this empire. And again he can't.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: The problem is is that you know, he's not a
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Sith anymore, but he's also not going to be a Jedi.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: He's just a dark Side user. But he can't think
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: outside the box and the framework to which Sidius gave him.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: He doesn't have the ability to do that. And I
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: think that's because, and this is one of the things
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: that's so fascinating, right, because of that dark side nature
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: of always pursuing the easy way, always pursuing that which
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: is right in front of you, your passions and your desires,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: and fully giving in to that. Mal can't grow past
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: that because he won't allow himself to. And I think
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: that's something incredibly beautiful, because you know, as he seduces
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Devin to the dark Side, it's not the Syth's side,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: but it's definitely the dark side, oh yes. And I
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: think that's what makes this so interesting is you know,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: in Ahska, we had Shin and we had Balin and
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: their dark side users, but of a type we hadn't
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: seen before, and this is kind of, I think the
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: first taste of that idea of like seeing a dark
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Side user but they're not Sith, but they they're leaning
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: into the principles of giving into the dark side as
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: a harness for their power. And that's what I'm so
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: excited to be able to see here because I think
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: Mal's arc here allows us to be able to kind
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: of explore maybe like this proto relationship that Balen Ahsoka
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: seems to have kind of figured out more so than
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Maul does, and it seems as though there's going to
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: be a really interesting connection maybe hopefully between that story
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: and what we're going to see in Ahsoka season two
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that allows us to kind of unpack these ideas further.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: Well.
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: What I think is also very very interesting is it
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: all starts with an earnest detective who's looking for the
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: solution to a crime, a guy doing his job, trying
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: to do the best for everybody, and simply because he
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: doesn't like he's He's in a double bind. You know,
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: Lawson is in a double bind because Mal shows his face,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Lawson sees it. Lawson is supposed to do a certain
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: thing that would bring the empire in. He tries to
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: fight it. And it's I think it's this interesting thing
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: where you get that pull of fate, like even everything
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Mall is going through, once Mall shows himself, there's no
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: all it is is a question of delaying the inevitable,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: that it's never going to be avoidable, and that I
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: think layers over Mal's whole thing because we know that
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: his end is unavoidable. His tragedy is ever present because
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: it's just bound by certain things. So even somebody coming
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: in and trying to do a good thing in relation
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: to Maul, it's just like a whirlpool. It just sucks
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: everything into it and and and down into everything, and
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: it's just it's so it's so beautiful how you wind
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: up with good intentions wanting to do and it still
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: goes wrong simply because simply going near Mal poisons you.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: The road to hell. Man. It's uh, you know, it's
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: something because have you ever heard has anyone ever told
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: you the tale of mall shadow Lord, right, the tragedy
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: of Mal's shadow Lord, Because yeah, you're right, that's what
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: this is. And and what's fascinating to I think to
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: broaden out just a little bit as as we're talking
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: about Maul in his arc and everything, is the people
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: that he has around him. Because one of the beauties
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: I see here is that Mal is this character because
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: of what he experienced with Citious. If you're loyal to him,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: he will be loyal to you to.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: A fault, right, right.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: He is not willing to give up those in his
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: service who are loyal to him, you know. And I
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: thought that was something that's really fascinating you. In that
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: second to last episode, you know, we see him sending
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: people over the river until it's just him left. Yeah,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: and why is that is because those people have proven
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: loyalty to him, they deserve then his protection. He has
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: taken on truly that godfather like persona that, yes, if
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: you pledge yourself to me, when you do the things
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: that I ask you to do, I'm gonna take care
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: of you if that cost me my own life, because
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that's what I've pledged, because I'm going to be different
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: insidious And that's the kind of the sad state of
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: mal which is.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: Just if he.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Took like two more steps, he could be on the
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: right side, you know.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: And yes, and that's also the quasi frustrating, that's not frustrating,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: but like tragic, sad, heartbreaking thing is Doki doesn't do
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: the Jedi thing of like, no, we'll never talk to him,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: No will not Like Doki is still trying to be
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: a Jedi master and give Maul the opportunity to be loyal,
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: to be good. But there is a limit because he
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: betrays Doki the moment it benefits him, So his loyalty
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: has a limit the minute he sees a you know,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: if he were truly loyal, then he stays with Doki
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: to keep fighting Vader. So his loyalty has a ceiling.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Right, And I think that that's because he's choosing at
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: that point do I go help Devin or do I
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: help Doki? And it's like, no, I'm not letting go
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: of the one thing I can believe that can help
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: me bring down Citio. Yes, I just and again that's
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: where the selfishness comes in, right, He's willing to sacrifice
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: others for his own benefit, anyone really for his own benefit.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: And you know, I thought that that was incredibly interesting
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: in the show. And you know, before we kind of
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: leave mal, I did want to ask you about all
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: of his sidekicks. You know, you've got Rook, and you've
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: got spy Bot. You've got Varrio who kind of brings
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: into the fold because you know he he uses him.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: You've got him building up his shadow collective again by
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: taking over the Pikes again. And so I just wanted
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: to give us an opportunity here just to be able
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: to talk about these people around mall. And you know
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: what characters stayed with you? Which which were the ones
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: that you were actually like, oh dang that one died?
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: Oh well, I mean I thought that the I was.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: I was honestly so prized by Rook dying. I thought
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: Rook had a chance, and I wish she had continued.
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: But that's just because I really liked her as a character.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: She was a very interesting Mandalorian.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: And I loved that Vanessa Marshall got her desire, which
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: was that death would be her lungs pulled out through
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: her throat and that's the sound they were going for.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: I think that you know, in terms of Maul's coterie.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: For me, it really does begin and end with Spybot,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: because I loved Spybot so much. He was so great
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: and he made me laugh because he was an evil Chopper.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: And that's a great way to put it. He's like Chopper,
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: but completely evil.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, actually evil Chopper. People make the joke about
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Chopper being evil with Chopper is just a jerk. Spybot's
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: actually evil, and and Maul actually shows Spybot affection. There's
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: even at least one moment where he almost like scratches
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: him like a dog behind.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: The ears, just because it's like that's his pit Bull, right,
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: you know, like every he's he's he's terrible to everybody else,
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: but to Master, you know, he's he's the he's the
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: lovable you know, pit bull.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: And I wish I could take credit for this, but
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Spybot's death has a very interesting echo for anybody that
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: played The Force Unleashed, where when Proxy, the training droid
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: for Star Killer, gets killed out with his dying emission,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: he goes Master and spy Bot does the same thing,
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, man, that's so beautiful. Like I didn't
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: catch it on the first watch. But it was like,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: oh my gosh, but like it's still it still even
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: shows like you're saying, Spybot's a jackass to everybody but Maul,
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: and it's it's it's that loyal pit bull sort of thing.
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: It's a terrifying entity to everybody except the one person
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: that it will show loyalty to. So, I mean, I
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: loved Spybot. I love Vrio. I thought he was great.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: I thought simply using I forget the I forget the
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: Alien Races name, but you know the pod Racer from
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: episode one, I think it was like ratsterrel or whatever,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: and having him show up in that robot body, like
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: just just the way that he gets away with it
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: when he kills Demus is just beautiful. And I thought
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: he was funny. He was he was like Joe Pesci
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: in Lethal Weapon two.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: Well, he's like Joe Peshi and all the lethal Weapons
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: that he's in where it's like he just won't stop talking,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: you know, less annoying honestly, but yeah, I mean, like
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I love you bringing up all of them. And I
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: thought that his his troop was fantastic, you know, even
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: having the death Mary Knight Brothers, that that serve him,
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: and and you know, he's brought in a part of
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: his family that he lost, you know, and you know,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: these these characters obviously mean a lot to him because
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: when he sees them both die, of course one of
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: them actually you know, utilizing his own life to help
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: save Maul's life was was fantastic, you know. And so
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's just there's so much about that that
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: I really love, and you know, it's kind of sad
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: that most of them are gone at this point. And
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: that means that for season two, it'll be fascinating to see,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: is you know, we add characters like Dryden, Voss and
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: and hopefully others that as he's building this this menagerie
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: of the Shadow collective again, that will get characters that
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: kind of play interesting roles next to Maul. Because I
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: thought the beauty of the relationship with Rook is that
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: for Mal it's the one person that was able to
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: question him. She does it respectfully, but they had a
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: relationship to which her loyalty had earned her the ability
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: to say, master, is this really the right call? Is
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: this the best idea? I thought that was great, And
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: you know, every great mob movie or mob story has
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: that same type of character, and I thought they did
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: really well.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Well and you can see how it winds up being.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: It'll be interesting to see whether it's a net positive
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: or net negative for Mal to lose that voice in
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: his ear because Devin's not going to challenge him like that.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: Varrio doesn't have the state owns to do it, and
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: two Boots and Riley they're not going to do it,
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: So maybe Voss can occupy that, but we also know
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: that Voss is going to answer to him, so that
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: dynamic will develop in a specific fashion as it were. So, Yeah,
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: good call on Rook, like she was the trusted lieutenant,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: the only one who would he would listen to without
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: smacking around or killings. Yeah for questioning him in that way.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Devin is such an interesting character in
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: this season, of course, and part of that is, you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: we didn't get the opportunity, say, to follow Canaan's character
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: and kind of see the struggle that he goes through
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: on surviving.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: The only opportunity we got there was was John Jackson
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Miller's fantastic book that allows us a little bit of
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: insight into that, A New Dawn, which if you have
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: if people haven't read. I highly recommend John Jackson Miller
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: fantastic and it's a great book. And I think, you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: we even talked about that back on the six oh
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: two Club together here, so but I really loved the
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: way in which Devin is the the Jedi character who
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: has survived, and yet she knows that her potential and
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: her purpose and all that she was looking to be
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: is gone. And so it leads to this this crisis
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: of principle. Right are the principles that I grew up with?
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Are they eternal? Or do I need to adapt and
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: change to the times?
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Do I just need to become malleable? Which is exactly
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: what Maul is telling her. Whereas you know, Docky on
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: the other side, you know, she's got the Shoulder Angel
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: and the Shoulder Devil speaking into her the whole time,
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: and she's kind of stuck in the middle, and she
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: is very much the character who's struggling, and you can
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: completely understand why, because the foundation of her existence has
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: been pulled out from under her and she's reeling, especially
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: since you know she's she and her master have spent
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: the last few years trying to survive, and it's not
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: been easy.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, And I think that calling back to Keenan is
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: a very good thing because we know that Kanan decides
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: I'm going to live my life as if I were
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: a Jedi without being a Jedi, and Devin is struggling
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: with that because she's sitting there. We're hungry, we're starving,
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: and Doki is still trying to say, even in dark times,
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: the Force will provide for us. We will Like he's
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: he he's been alive long enough with the faith that
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: he doesn't lose faith. And she's so young that she
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: doesn't have the opportunity. It's not it hasn't set in
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: her at this point. It's something that's still forming. So
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Order sixty six happens at a very crucial time before
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: she can truly become, you know, who she should have become.
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: And as you say that, I'm thinking of this very
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: interesting and I think it's it's it's very timely aspect,
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: but it's also something that has happened throughout all times,
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: right and and but I mean we've become much more
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: aware of it in the last one hundred years. In
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: this sense that docky In and Lawson are both parents
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: basically who are fighting to keep their kids from being
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: radicalized by the easier path, right, the more seductive path.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And that's the thing is that Maul is incredibly smart
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: in the way that he seduces Devin to the dark side,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: because he gives her all of the things that she lost, potential, purpose, hope,
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: and not just surviving but life, actual life, right And
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: and so that's what I think, in the way that
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: he structures every single moment with her, he's slowly building
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: towards that with her, even though she's seen him do
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: some pretty horrible things, like the look on her face
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: when Maul destroys the ataight or I mean, I don't
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: think it's quite at ataight, it's' atsd Yeah, it's the walker.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the one we would see in rebels. Uh
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: And and so there's that, there's that moment, and and
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: he just destroys it and walks away, you know, because
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: cool guys don't look at explosions. Uh And but the
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: look on our face is kind of one of horror
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: because of the way that he's treated these stormtroopers, to
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: which they know aren't clones. Then they're not droids, they're
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: actual beings. And there's something on her face that is
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: kind of horrified by that. But yet at the same time,
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: his seduction to his side is so pitch perfect that
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: by the time we get to the moment where she says,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: I'm ready to give in to her base emotions, her
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: hate and revenge. Like he's played this perfectly in the
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: same way that you know, Sidius played it perfectly with Anakin.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But I mean, what I also think is super
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: interesting is we get another another crucial moment. Ohbi Wan
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: screams now when he sees his master killed. Luke when
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: his first master gets killed, screams no. When she sees
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: her master killed, she screams no. It's all very so
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: it's like poetry at rhymes. We're gonna make that joke repeatedly, folks.
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: And I think it's interesting because that's the ultimate philosophical question.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: You know, what philosophically you're supposed to do in a
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: crisis or traumatic situation. But there are so many different
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: factors that go into how a person responds to it.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Like I was having a discussion with one of my
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: kids and I said, you know, it was a long
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: ranging discussion, and I just mentioned, you know, yeah, and
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: if somebody did something bad to you. You know, they'd
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: better pray that the cops get to them first, because
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: they're not going to want me to find them. And
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: my kids said back to me, and I'll give my
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: kid credit for saying, well, that's not very Christian of you.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: And I said, well, that's true, but I also know
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: that I hope I've never put to that test, because
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: I can promise you I'm not going to be Jesus
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: in that moment, Like it was one of those things
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: where if you look at all of these different factors.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: Luke is escaping the Death Star when he sees obi
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Wan cut down, but he has his friends calling him
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: and saying, come on, come with us. Obi Wan is
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: old enough to take the trials to prove he's ready
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: for knighthood. So when Qui Gon gets struck down, yes
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: it's awful, but he's able to rise to the challenge,
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: as it were, philosophically, even though he has that moment
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: of attacking Mall, it's because it truly is a fight
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: or die moment. He doesn't have a choice there. And
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: then when she sees it she's being attacked by an inquisitor,
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: she had her life pulled out from under her. This
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: whole thing kicks off because she was arrested for stealing
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: fruit to live. So you get the whole thing about
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: how a just law is applied without concern for nuance
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: or empathy. You get all of those sorts of things
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: that go in and so you see this different set
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: of circumstances. Well, what if we change the factors like this,
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: would the person still respond in the ideal fashion? I
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: think that's really interesting.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love the moment. There's a couple of
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Man of Steel moments actually in the show. There's the
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: whole point in the very first episode where Mal goes
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: to get Varrio from prison and he has the lightsaber
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: and it's just going across the wall the same way
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: you know you had Zod at the end with the
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: laser vision going to kill the person, and very man
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: of Steel moment. There's another one too where Devin, you know,
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: or she wants to go after Vader and she says
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: I will kill him, and in the cadence is the
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: exact same as Zod when he says I will find him.
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: And I thought that was pretty beautiful because it's that
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: it's that resonance of hate in her right, that she
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't care about the principles she grew up with in
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: this moment, all she cares about is getting her revenge.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: And I think there's something just incredibly interesting about the portrayal.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: The voice acting here was phenomenal. I really loved the
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: portrayal of Gideon Aldan about. She did a great job
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: with this character. And you know, having her master be
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Dennis Habert.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, Dennis Haysburt is one of my favorite right actors
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: out there.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: He's but the interplay between them was just so wonderful.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: And again, I think you rightly said it right. This
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: is a character who has been through and seen so much,
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: and so he's just rolling with the punches and he's
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: trying to help his padawan be able to do the same.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and yet the.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Unfortunate thing for him is that he is behind the
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: eight ball, because again, what Mal is offering her is
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: everything that she's missing in life. Yes, and it's very
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: difficult to compete with that, especially when she can basically
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: almost sense that the mediate gratification of everything that she's
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: desired in her whole life will come from giving in
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: to what Mal has said. And again there's another great
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: allusion to the world that we live in. That's the
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: other lesson. Yes, everything could be saying you could get
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: what you want, but now we're about to see the
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: consequences of giving in to that life.
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: Well, you also have the parallel of parenting basically, I mean,
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: you know, Star Wars at its core is about parenting,
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: and so you have lost in with Riley and you
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: see a very loving father who I mean, listen the
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: scene at the end where Lawson is about to sacrifice
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: himself and his final words essentially to Riley are like, listen,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: I know I let work it in the way and
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: I I was just always trying to do the best,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: and I'm sorry for the times that I fell short.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: That was like an arrow to my heart right there,
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: because that's a discussion I've had in my own heart
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: and in my own mind when I find myself consumed
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: by my job and stuff like that, where it's like, oh, hey,
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: you know, kiddo, I'm so sorry that I've been consumed.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: But like it's it's like wow, very resonant, but like,
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: and you have Docy sitting there trying to be the
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: good father. For lack of a better term, he's being
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: the good parent. He's like, yeah, I know it's tough,
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: but this is how we do with this. We're not
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: going to give up who we are because of this.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: And Mal is the perfect encapsulation of all the things
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: that the good parent is fighting against that are influences
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: from life, immediate gratification, giving into your worst impulses, getting
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: even getting revenge, only worrying about you and making things
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: right for you, and not how it impacts anybody else.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: Like it's everything that makes Vader Vader and the Inquisitors
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: the inquisitors, but Mal is able to dress it up
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: in such a way. He's not pointing them and saying, hey,
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: you'll get to be like them. Because if he pointed
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: at Vader and the Inquisitors and said, hey, if you
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: do what I'm saying, you can be just like them, no,
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: Mal is saying, oh no, I hate them too. No, no, no, no,
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: We're we're gonna be a different type of selfish than
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: they are. And it's like it's and that's the thing
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: the parents are fighting against, is like, no, it's all selfish,
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: it's all bad. It all goes to the wrong thing,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: and that's that's so key of what that.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: That's the beauty of what Maul does, right he because
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: he presents himself as basically, I'm not perfect, but I'm
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: not really that far off of everything that you wanted,
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: and you know, you just need to see me from
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: a different perspective.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: In some ways. Uh, he's kind of like the classic abuser,
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: right Like.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: Right the the the abused person becomes an abuser. That's
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: an echo. That's an echo that happens in reality.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, well, and you mentioning Lawson, I mean, you know,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I love Lawson's arc here because we have Jenex as
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: this new planet, and this planet is incredibly interesting because
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Lawson is caught in a space where it seems like
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: this planet has made some sort of deal with the
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: syndicates where they're they seem to have some sort of
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: rain right over this planet and room to maneuver, and
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: it's like, as long as they don't get too out
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: of line, we'll let you be here. And so from
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: the beginning, this show is taking place in the moral
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: gray area, right, which is where the rest of the
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: show is going to play itself out. We're not going
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: to necessarily be just playing in the light. In the
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: dark but we're going to be almost in this space
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: where they're mixing, and can that really happen or should
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: there be as we talked about with you know, with
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: the idea of Devon, should certain principles be immutable and
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: that it doesn't matter what position we're in, we should
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: stick to And And I love Lawson's arc because he's
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: that guy, like you said, who's caught between a rock
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: and a star destroyer, and he knows what the empire
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: is and he fears it. And I think that's the thing.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: You know, I kind of hope he's not dead because
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: I want to explore more what was it about Lawson's
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: past that makes him fear the Empire the way he does.
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: I would leave it for books, because I'm going to
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: go ahead and say that I hope he is dead
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: because I don't want to see what they would do
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: to him if he isn't. I don't I don't want
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: anything worse to happen to Lawson. And I know that
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: you know, Marok and Crow would not treat him well
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: for his part in all of these things. But what's
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: really interesting is I think that it's a part of
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: American history that people forget is we look at them
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: and go, oh, look at this. They've made an agreement
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: and the syndicates can operate so long as they don't
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: get too out of control. I hate to be the
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: cynic here, but that's sort of how things have always operated,
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: perhaps even more so in the past. Probably still the
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: same way today. We'd like to think not, but like
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: if you look back at the mafia in the United
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: States history, the mafia was basically its own governmental system,
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: and the agreement between the US government and the mafia
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: was look, look, look, look just if so long as
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: you guys just target each other and it doesn't bleed
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: out into the streets, we could leave each other alone
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: because we don't want this to get worse than it is.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Right with league, we get it. You people are gonna gamble,
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: people are going to go, you know, in search of prostitution. People.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: You guys can manage that stuff because we can't do
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: that because it's illegal. Okay, you guys are the safety
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: valve for the vices in society. Just don't let it
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: get messy and we can come to some sort of agreement.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: So to me, I think that Janics, if anything, is
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: a very realistic depiction of how society itself really works.
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: It's just we don't We all want to be I
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: guess like Riley or the Jedi and say, well, that's
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: not the way that things are, because the good guys
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: should be in control, whereas I would say I'm camp
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: lost in where it's like, look, I got to deal
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: with reality here, and I'm not going to push them
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: too hard, and maybe if something happens, I'm gonna be like, hey, Mario,
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: I got to bring you in. What happened? Okay, just
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: tell me something I can put in a report so
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: that nobody gets too mad, okay, because all you guys
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: did was shoot each other. So like, let's just give
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: me enough that I can sort of like tamp this down. Okay?
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: Is that cool? Like? I think that that's that makes
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: laws In I think one of the most interesting characters
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: in one of the most interesting positions in all of
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: current Star Wars lore. Like, I'm in love with the character,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: and I think that the voice talent that they got
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: for laws In is absolutely fantastic because his voice carries
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: this beautiful like he feels. I feel like I understand
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: him just because his voice sounds like that the dad
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: who's got a tough job that he's not necessarily in
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: love with, but he's doing it right. And the fifty
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: cups of coffee that he has sitting on his desk
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: because he just he's a coffee addict. He's not a drinker,
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: he doesn't do drugs, but boy, he's gonna drink coffee
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: just he's gonna his cat, his caffeine is going to
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: get some blood in it every so often in his
• 56:20
  Speaker 3: system sort of thing. So, yeah, Lawson's arc is super
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: interesting because he is a good person, but he's way
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: more realistic about the world than the Jedi ever were.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there is a beauty to
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: this character, and in the sense that, like man, this
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: dude he has this interesting, shady past when you hear
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: about with Rena a little bit. He's got a broken marriage,
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: he's had trouble being there as a father because his
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: job takes him away so much. And yes, he has
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: a caf addiction, which I thought is fantastic. Why don't
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: we have those cups now? I mean, Disney, you are
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: you could be printing money. Give those cups away at
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: galaxies Edge, you know.
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: Yep, Settleman sets A four. I will buy them tomorrow.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: And and what is really interesting I think about his
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: story is the way in which it allows us to
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: see how the Empire takes over a world. Right, they
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: do the thing that everybody feared the Republic would do
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: in the Clone Wars, right, you think of the the
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: Mandalorian arc. They're afraid to call in the Republic because
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: they don't think they'll leave. The Empire actually doesn't leave,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: and uh, and I think that's what's really fascinating. And
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: in some ways, you know, Maul is right in that
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: the Empire needs to come down and then if we stood,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: if we stand together, we can take down the Empire.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: But it's not going to be revenge that makes that happen.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: It's not gonna be his criminal organization that happens. But
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: it's gonna be those who fight for the rights of
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: all to be free, who can who are going to
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: help this win, you know, help get the win across
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: the line. And I love that that's tied to us
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: watching a man know what the Empire is gonna do,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: not want to call them because he knows the moment
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: they come, they're never leaving, and just have to live
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: through the consequences because his dumb droid is following protocol
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: and won't let it go. And you know, man, the
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: cast of characters around Lawson with I love his son Riley.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: I thought that was really well done. I love that
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: we get to see him playing bodikin you know which
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: we actually saw the the first head of that, that
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: lacrosse style stick in Anakin's room. Phantom Menace is great.
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: But man, I will say, I think you mentioned in
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: a chat that you loved two Boots. Oh yes, I
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: hated two Boots and I hated two Boots because he's
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: the one that causes all this to happen.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: Right here, his master. How dare you come at my
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: man two Boots here? Okay, two Boots is actually yes,
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: I get he's a droid, but two Boots is the
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: absolutely perfect and I mean perfect portrayal of the rule
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: follower who doesn't listen to the practical person or the
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: you know, basically somebody who has process and protocol. Is
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: it's a do things. This is the way I think.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: But the thing is Lawson is, yes, Lawson is the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: guy that's like, listen, it's not how the world really works. Okay,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: let's not. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. You
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: got to think about second order consequences. The thing is,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: two Boots reminded me of people I might know and
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: work with where I'm the one that's the laws, and
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: that's like, no, hey, no, let's let's think about what
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: happens three steps down the line here, guys. Okay, let's
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: not Oh, you sent the email. Okay, cool. You technically
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: did the right thing there. However, it would have been
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: the wiser thing to take care of this problem before
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: we sent the email, because now we got ten people.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: You know, that sort of thing. Two Boots I thought
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: is great also because two Boots has a I mean,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: you know, how do you say this about a joy?
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: But like, two Boots has a good heart. He's not
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: doing it maliciously, He's not you know. If anything, this
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: gets back to the whole the episode one duality thing
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: where you have you have Spybot, and you have two Boots,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: and you have the two droids who are the you know,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: the the loyal bodyguards and companions of our two main characters,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: and you see how they are reflections of the other.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: Spybot always does exactly what he's told absolutely one hundred
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: percent of the time, is that a good thing? Well, no,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: because Maul is telling him to do terrible things and
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: he just does it without questioning. And if anything, Lawson
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: is it's interesting because laws in it's almost like two
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: Boots is the you know, the stubborn child that won't
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: listen to the parent. No, this is the right way
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: to do things. Yeah, I'm trying to give you. If anything,
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: two Boots is an echo of the relationship between Docky
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: and Devin. Right, Devin, if you would just listen to me,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: trust me, this is going to be better. And lost
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: in saying the same thing to two Boots. If you
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: would just listen to me, things are gonna go better.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: And both of them refuse to listen, and that's what
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: leads to the whole you know, trail of tears that
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: we go through here. So yeah, I'm team two Boots
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: and you know it. How dare you love?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: The thing is is like, I don't hate the character.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: I just got frustrated with the character. And it's for
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: exactly all the reasons that you said. You know, it's
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: because he's the character who can't see beyond just the
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: simple binaries, right sure, And that's a part of the story.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: And and so, and I love that you know, in
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 2: the end, he comes around, which is is great.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: I wanted to talk a little bit about the Inquisitors. Honestly,
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: what's interesting with them is there's not so much to
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: talk about because they barely say anything. But I wanted
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: to ask you just about the portrayal of them here
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: in this season, because we've seen Inquisitors. We've actually seen
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: both of these inquisitors before. You know, we've seen the
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: end of the Crow with Ahsoka and in the Tales
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: of the Jedi, and we'll see the end of Moroc
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: in Ahsoka. So she's responsible for both of their deaths
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: in some way, shape or form, depending on what happened
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: to Moroc and all that. I just wanted to ask
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: you about how they portrayed them here.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: I thought it was great. I loved seeing more of them.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: I loved seeing them sort of in their prime sort
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: of thing. But also I love you know, you mentioned
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: Crow technically Eleventh Brother, I think is Crow's name. I
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: love the fact that when Eleventh Brother goes up against Ahsoka,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: she just takes him out like a punk. And I
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: think that it's great because now we have him here
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: and we see how formidable he really is. So now
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: if I go back to Tales of the Jedi, it
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: really reinforces that it's not that he's a throwaway character.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: It'saad Ahsoka is just that Goodhsoca is just that awesome.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: That all she took out the crow she took out
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: you know, Moroc. I mean, come on, she's well.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: But but the thing is, it's like with with with Moroc.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: Even I loved Morok when we met him in Ahsoka
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: because I love an interesting mask and costume, and I
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: was like wow. But now, even because you're talking earlier
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: about the fact that we saw this, you know these
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: you know, if only Maul had joined with the two
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: Jedi to work together. But would that necessarily be the case,
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: because Maroc's working with a Jedi and his apprentice, and
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: instead what's happened is they're poisoned and they go to
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: the dark side. So that in and of itself winds
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: up being a very beautiful little echo of It's very
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: tempting during this show to say, oh, look, they're working
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: with Mal, and maybe that would mean if Mal were
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: less selfish, he could have become good. No, I think
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: that if anything, you look at where Marock goes with everything,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: and you look at how this review you know, resolves
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: itself with with Docky and Devin. It shows that once
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: you start working with a dark Side user, no matter
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: what all that comes of it is bad. There's no
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: way to you know, it's just like da like Yoda said,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: once you know consume you, it will as it did
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: Obi Wan's Apprentice forever will it dominate your destiny? Like
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: it's that thing where it's like, oh, okay, well we'll
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: just work with Marok. Oh wait, and all of a sudden,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: we're we're not Sith, but we're bad people, and oh, well,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: you know, we'll work with Maul because it's a means
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: to an end. Yeah, well, Doki's dead and now she's
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: going to turn to the dark side. There is no
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: compromise with evil. It's not possible. All evil can do
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: is make things less good. And I think that's what
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: you see with with Marok here, and at least Eleventh
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: Brother has now demonstrated that Ahsoka killing him was pretty
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: damned impressive.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: Well, and I love to the way that they're portrayed
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: in the season where they just literally come across as
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: the hounds of hell, you know. Yeah, and the way
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: that they act is very much in that way of
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: just like these bloodhounds tracking down the enemy. I thought
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: that was great, you know, and so well I.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: Loved I'll go ahead and say what I really loved
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: is when they get away through the underground toxic river,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: which is in and of itself its own commentary, where
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: it was like, oh, this is terrible. It's like, yeah, well,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: the toxic waste has got to go somewhere, and it's
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: like it's that, it's it. This is how social commentary
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: should be done, folks, where it gives you that moment
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: where you're kind of like, yeah, I don't think enough
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: about that, do I? You know, like it's but it all.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: Even that is a visual echo of the fact that
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: that genis always has this rotten underbelly, this toxic underbelly
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: of the criminal syndicates that they're willing to work with,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: they're willing to turn the blind eye to that in
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: and of itself is toxic. So at its core, there's toxicity.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 3: But that moment when Maul gets away and they're both
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: standing there and Marok just says, oh, I can't remember
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: the exact line at this point I've watched it enough times.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: But he says, was like, all right, tell him he's on,
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: Tell him they're on the way. And you know, when
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: he said that, I got to ask you, did you
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 3: think as I did? He was like, Oh, are you
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 3: guys gonna No, you guys aren't gonna do Is him him?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: Do you mean him him? Like when I heard tell him,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: I was like, him him killing him? Is him coming?
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: That sort of Were you in the same boat?
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, okay, but I thought that maybe it might be
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: like The Grand Inquisitor, And so because I didn't think
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: they were actually gonna bring Vader in this season, but
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: they did, and the Dark Holder of the Sith arrives,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: and you know, I just kind of love that Ahsoka
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 2: was right at the end of the Clone Wars where
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: she's like, man, you would have been in real trouble
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: if Anakin had shown up, because the way you're fighting,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: he would basically have mopped the floor with you. And
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: she was right. So again, portrayal of Vader here and
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: then like we finally get to see this thing to
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: which fans have been thinking about, they've seen in comics,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: but Maul and Vader just going at it.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: M hm, and I think that it's handled beautifully, absolutely beautifully,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: because Vader moves like Vader, he doesn't move like Anakin.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: And I think that another beautiful thing is layered in
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 3: the decision not to have Vader speak at all. I
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: think is the most beautiful tribute you can have to
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 3: the fact that this is the first time we're encountering
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: Vader as a character after James Earl Jones has left us,
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: and so having him speechless in this segment, there's a
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: very valid character reason for it, there's a very valid
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: story reason for it. But I think layered onto that
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: is I will always, whether it's my own interpretation or not,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: I will always take it as a beautiful tribute to
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: the fact that there is no other voice for him.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: And maybe at some point in the future we'll see
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: him and they will they will use technology to have
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: Vader speak. Okay, that's fine, I understand that's the way
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: it's going to be. Cool, man, I got no problem
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: with it. But here, this is our first time. Let's
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: take a break from the voice. Let's just have Vader breathing.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: That's okay, But in terms of his fighting, I just
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: thought it was so beautiful because it is, and I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: know that there's a clip of Sam Witwb're going around
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: talking about it too. It is somebody who doesn't have
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: to over exert themselves. Everybody else is doing acrobatics and
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: flips and turns and everything like that, and Ankin's like, yeah,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: you're gonna be there. Yeah, you're gonna be there. Yeah,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: you're gonna be there. I don't need to turn that.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah okay. And when does he lose his cool? Is
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: just like when Luke tags him on Cloud City on
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: the shoulder, Docky does it and then Vader's like, oh, oh, okay,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 3: you got past it, all right. I gotta end this
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: and ends it obviously. Sorry, I know I rambled a
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: little bit there, but yes, I love to bring in
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: Vader in. I'll never I will, I will always treasure
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: and never forget watching that moment with my kid and
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: I knew it was coming and she didn't, and Rook
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: gets dragged off, and I'm sitting there waiting. Rook goes off.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: You hear the crunching, and then you hear that first
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: and my kid goes, oh no, oh, my gosh, and
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: Vader walks out and she puts her hands to the
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: side of her head and she goes, oh, they're cooked.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: Oh they're cooked. They don't stand it. Oh my gosh,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: they're cooked. And I'm just sitting there with a big
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: smile on my face because I'm like, just wait till
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: you see the next episode, kid, and it's just what
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: a thrill. Okay, anyway, sorry, I'll step back off my
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: soapbox at this point.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: No, man, I love it because, you know, the introduction,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: the fact that they went with the splinter of the
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: Mind's Eye type of cover, like you said, the fact
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: that Annakin doesn't speak at all because he's not Anakin anymore.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: He's Vader and he doesn't have anything to say to
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: these people. He is the machine hunting right, you know,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: he's the terminator at this point, and he doesn't have
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: any quippie lines because he doesn't care. And like you said,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: that moment where Docky tags him and does that kind
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 2: of like obi wan move right where he's got his
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: one hand out and the lightsaber up, you know, and
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: it's like, oh, that's triggering and the next thing you know,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: he is just hammering him. He's dead. And I love
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: that too, because Docy is actually he's proven to be
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: correct that the way to fight evil is not with
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: more evil, because he fights Vader cool, calm and collected,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: and he's the only one who scores a hit. And uh,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: maybe if there had been other people there fighting alongside
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: him the same way, they might have all won. It's
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: not it's not emotion and rage and unpredictability that's needed.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: It's calm, cool, collected, and that that's the very thing
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: to which you know, I remember, and we're gonna cover this.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: We keep teasing that this is gonna happen, but it's
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: happening this year the episode three novelization, and there's that
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: moment in that where may Wind tells Obi Wan Kenobi
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: exactly why they've sent him to face off against Grievous,
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: and the reason is is because Obi Wan is a
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 2: master of all of the classic forms. He is not
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: making up for any deficiencies the way that Mace Window
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: is or the way that Yoda does because of his size.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: And Obi Wan proves that over and over and over again.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: Right we saw it at the end of the Revenge
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: of the Sith where he's able to take out Anakin
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: and he could have killed him if he had wanted to.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: The way in which he does the same thing in
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: the Kenobi series, right, the way in which he takes
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: down Mall in twin suns, I mean, And so if
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: they had all fought the way Doaki had wanted, they
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: probably would have been able to beat Vader. And I
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: think that's really fascinating. But I agree with you everything
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: you said about the way that they bring Darth Vader
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: into this season. You know, it is that same type
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: of feeling that you had when he showed up in
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: Rogue one. Right, he doesn't say anything and he just
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: mows people down because he doesn't give He's like a
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: honey badger, right, he doesn't give a you know. Uh,
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: it's great, and it's such beautiful usage of a character
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: that's so important to the series, and it makes him
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: absolutely terrifying. And I think that's what's so interesting. Then
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: with that in the background now is Mal puts together
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: this shadow collected and we start connecting to solo right
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: with where we're gonna go with Dryden Voss coming in
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: and all of that, Like, I love you know, I
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: was so excited when I heard this show was coming
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: out because I have wanted to know how did Maul
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: get to the place he was at the end of Solo,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: where he seems to be in charge of this vast
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: criminal empire. I want to know how Mal becomes the Godfather,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: and the fact that we're building to those type of
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: things is super exciting to me. So I loved the
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: connection that Dryden Voss is the one who wants to
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: use Mal so he can be at the top of
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: Crimson Dawn. And it's just another place where this is
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: truly staying very true to the mob stipe to the
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: mob type stories. Right, I'll join, Yeah, I'll join your collective,
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: but you got to do me a favor.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and the and again, you can't make a deal
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 3: with evil. Once you invite the vampire in, you lost,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: You lost all your power. The vampires in control now
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 3: and you're your pride of Dryden Voss is so stupid
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 3: that he thinks he can welcome mall in and Maul
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 3: will respect any agreed meant that they have.
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: The scorpion always bites.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 3: And I think that there's also the whole thing with
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: Varrio is I live with this sad knowledge in my
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 3: heart that as much as I like Varrio and I
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: think he's funny and I love the character, and I
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: don't want anything to happen to him because I think
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: he's a very effective character. I think he's great comic relief.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: I think he's voiced perfectly all of that type of stuff.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: Mal says at one point that I can't remember the
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 3: exact line, but he basically says, you know that death
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: awaits everybody who betrayed him. Well, Varrio, you seem to
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: forget that you betrayed Mal. So when Mal kills you,
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: not if when he kills you, all you did was
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: you just It's just like loss in with two boots.
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: You're just delaying the inevitable. Bro like run while you can, stupid,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: get out of dodge, don't hang around him. This is
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 3: not the good play. But Maul is smart enough that
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: he sweetens it. He makes Varrio relax his intellect and say,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: oh well, I'll stay here because this is where the
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: power is. Oh No, when he gave you the oka
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 3: to leave, you should have left. You had the means
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 3: to leave, you had the connections to leave. You chose
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 3: to stay. This is all on you from here on out. Congratulations, dummy,
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: you won the idiot Prize. Like the show could surprise
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: me and Varrio could get away, and I would accept that.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: But right now, coming out of season one, I'm like, ah,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: Varrio's cooked, He's done. He just doesn't he's dead. He
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: just doesn't know it yet.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: Man. Can we talk about the animation, because you know,
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 2: both you and I have been watching, obviously Lucasfilm Animation
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: since the very beginning. We both of us saw the
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: original Clone Wars movie in the theater. The animation was lambasted.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: You know, people hated it. And I am going to say,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: I think that Lucasfilm Animation may be the premiere animation
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 2: studio out there right now. And I think it's partly
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: because they're continuing to try and push the medium of
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: animation as a art form. Yeah, they are not afraid
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: to utilize all the tricks of a trade. I mean,
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: they're using Matt paintings in this, they're using models in this,
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: they're using wind machines and dust and like, they are
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 2: raising the stakes as to what you can do in
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: an animated series. That just it makes this an incredibly
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 2: special season. And not only that, but you know, one
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: of the things that Disney did at the height of
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: its animation Rain was that each of the movies that
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: were coming out would mimic the feeling and the culture
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 2: they were making a movie about. So Hercules had this
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: Greek feel to it, with like what you would see
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: on the Greek earns. You'd have Mulan that had this
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 2: very wonderful Eastern Chinese feel to it. Perfect. They were
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: doing those things and it worked so well. This show
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 2: with the animation, has an edge to everything because it's
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 2: almost as like we're seeing things through Maul's eyes the
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: way that he sees the universe, which is everything has
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: these jagged edges. Nothing is clean, and it's absolutely stunning.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 2: It's absolutely gorgeous, and I mean, I cannot give more
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 2: praise to the team at Lucasphille Animation for the work
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: that they're doing. And it's like, because we've seen bad Batch,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: we've seen the Tales of series where the animation seems
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: to have grown by leaps and bounds, and what they're
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: able to do this, it's like, no, we're going to
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: take this to a level we didn't even know existed,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: and that's fantastic.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: I can't really add anything to that. The only thing
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 3: that I will add is, yeah, the painter Lee approach
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: is a wonderful reminder that animation is art and it's
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 3: almost like an art history lesson to look at this
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 3: and I'm such a a fan of what they did,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: and yes, absolutely the jagged edges, but it also the
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 3: visual style very much speaks to the idea of a
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: world out of focus, the aftermath of Revenge of the Sith,
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: where things are murky, they're a little messy, and they're
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: out of focus. And I think that's really interesting because
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 3: we know what world we're in, but also having the
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: Stones to come in and say, this is a different era,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 3: so we're going to have a different feel to everything. Now.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: Bad Batch has its own look in its own style,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 3: and it's beautiful on its own terms. This has its
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: own look in its own style, and it's beautiful on
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 3: its terms. Clone Wars grew and became beauty in its
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: own terms, in its own style. That's what really sets apart,
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: Lucasfilm animation. Really sets it apart, is that each show,
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: instead of carrying forward what came before to say, oh,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: this is what you like, We're going to do more
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 3: of it, it says, no, this is a different story.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: We're going to have a different visual flare to it,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: and I think that energy comes across the audience as passion,
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 3: and that is why the audience responds to it so well.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: Because you have people will always respond to a challenge
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: that says I want you to grow, I want you
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 3: to work on you, and I want you to bring
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 3: something unique that only you can do. People will always
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 3: respond to that and say, I got your boss. If anything,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: Lucasfilm Animation is one of those places where I look
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 3: at it and I say, when somebody asks me, what
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: can LMS quote unquote AI not do, I look at
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: it and I say, it can't do that because this
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: wasn't done this way before. And I will point to
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: something like this and I will say, this is what
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 3: we're fighting to keep everybody. Is the unexpected instance where
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: somebody says, you know, what make it look like a
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: watercolor painting?
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: Look?
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 2: And AI can't give you those type of matte paintings.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: It can't give you combining model work in matte painting
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: and animation and all of these effects in the same way.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 2: It just can't. And like, I appreciate what you're saying,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: because I think this is the very hallmark of what
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 2: George wanted when he started this animation studio, he wanted
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: it to do the same thing that he did as
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: a filmmaker, which is continue to push the boundaries of
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: what filmmaking can do. They're pushing the boundaries of what
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: animation can do by starting to incorporate live action elements
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: in a way that you can't even tell that's the case,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 2: but they're doing it anyway, and it's because they have
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 2: a real heart and passion for art and storytelling, and
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: that is beauty.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: And another thing that's beautiful, because I think this is
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: a technical aspect that people don't talk enough about, is
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: in fact the editing, and I'll point to so much
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 3: about this is beautiful, but I forget which number of
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: the episode is. But there's an episode where basically we
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: start off and we just keep going lower and lower
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 3: into the levels and the way that the shots stack
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 3: on top of each other, they continually move downward and
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: they stack in such a way that it's like the
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: wipes in the Original Trilogy or Kurosawa film where you
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: get this feeling of like oh my gosh, like the
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: lighting changes and the camera movement keeps going down even
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: though it's not the it's not the exact same type
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 3: of shot each time, like it just keeps going down
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: and you get this sense in a very quick succession
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: of shots, oh my gosh, I've gone super low into
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: the core of this planet. I'm way lower than I
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 3: think I am right now. And even the fact that
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: when you have that moment at the end of the
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 3: fourth episode where you have the big fight and you
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 3: have Maul fighting the Jedi up in the rafters with
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 3: the assault on the main entrance happening, it's again that
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: excellent sense of place. I can describe to everybody, Well,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: Lawson's going in the main entrance down here where the
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: stairs are, and you've got people on his left flank
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: over here, and his right flank over here, and he's
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: got the cops coming in from slightly over the left here,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: and then up here to the right of where Lawson
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: is as he's facing the entrance, you have the Jedi
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: fighting going up the different levels and the scaffolding and
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 3: everything like that. And then you even have these wonderful
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 3: music homages I hear in the car chases. I heard
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 3: episode two in there in the fight scene. I heard
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 3: the matrix and so like. But it's just like Williams.
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 3: Like Williams, if you go back to original classical literature,
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: you can hear Holsts of the planets, you can hear
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 3: the Spotter music that was in there, and in this
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 3: you can hear the Spotter music that's in there. And
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 3: I think that's a beautiful thing because I respond to
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 3: it as an audience member, and I just think that
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: those are technical aspects that people do not give enough
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: credit to. For bringing you into it.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm so glad you brought up the music
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: because the Kiner family, which is now scoring for this series,
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: I think that the work that they're doing here in
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: in creating this is it's great. I mean utilizing bits
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: and pieces from the prequels too. I mean there is
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: a moment there at the very beginning of the soundtrack,
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: if you listen to it, there's a there's a que
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: that takes reference from the Pride and Prejudice version that
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: came out with Cure Knightley very similar.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: Oh really, yeah, because because I haven't seen that, so
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't catch that.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, So, but then there's all these other moments where
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: they they you know, rating interviews where they talked about
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: the way they layered Devin's theme with Mal's theme, and
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: actually they're they're completely similar to one another, so that
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: they play with each other and like it. They're putting
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: the same type of thought process that Williams was putting
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: into his Star Wars music. You know, when we've talked
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: about many times when Williams was inspired by a film,
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: you could tell, and you could very much tell. I
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: think that the Kiner family was incredibly inspired by this
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: show and we can hear it, and that's what you want.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: And I've listened to this soundtrack cone kind of NonStop
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: since it dropped. I've just been loving it. It's so
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: great and it makes me not be able to wait
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: for season two, which we know is coming, just because
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: of the music, but for everything else. And so John, look,
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: we are going to talk more and more about some
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: of the details and the implications on aggressive negotiations.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: And we didn't even talk about the ships. We got
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 3: to have a whole thing about the ships.
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: Some other times it's you know, so what is your
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: rating for Star Wars Colon Mal hyphen shadow lord.
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 3: H what do you think it is? M Here, let
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 3: me ask you the question on a scale of five stars,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: where do you think I put.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: This show forty seven?
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 3: That's a very conservative estimate, but I'll accept it. Five hundred,
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 3: five hundred fool Like, seriously, I don't have a single
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: complain about this show, say not one. No, well I
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 3: will say it.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: I wish they could have gotten if.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: You come you Okay, Okay, that's the only one.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: That's the only thing I.
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 3: Can think of that. Well, I'll accept because I thought
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 3: you were about to come at two Boots again. I
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: was like, I will reach.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: Through the I was just winding you up because I
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: knew how you felt about Two Boots.
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm just I'm just saying again, like you
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 3: come at me about two Boots, We're gonna have words.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: We're gonna have real words. Yeah. No, I agree, it
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: would have been nice to have Paul Bettney, but like
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: it's just you know, for me, that's that that ranks
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: up there with like when I was talk with my
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 3: friend Joey back when Clone Wars came out, and he's like, well,
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: goodn't a good frank Us, And I'm like, really, that's
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 3: that's the hell You're gonna die? Okay, all right, that's
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 3: and I know you're not being him about this, but
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: it's like, you know what, it's it's cool. I thought
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 3: the guy did a good that. You know that the
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: voice talent did a good job with him. I was
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: just happy to see him. But I'm still curious where
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 3: did he get the scars from? God? You know, I
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 3: gotta find that out. Somebody write a book. Somebody haven't
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 3: hill just because of the species he is, No, I thought,
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 3: like I always interpreted it as he did, it was
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: some relic related thing.
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: I'll have the look because I have the the the
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: Visual Dictionary for so I'll have to look that up. Anyway,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 2: this show is unrankable because it's just perfect. Uh you
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: know I think that.
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: Look.
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: I I explained this show to many people as I
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: talked about it as as it was airing. They had
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: found a way to put prestige television into animation. And
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: I feel about this show the same way I felt
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 2: about the and Or seasons. It's just I think it's
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 2: just pitch perfect. There's there's like you said, there isn't
• 1:32:22
  Speaker 2: anything I complained about. Yeah, Paul Bettany could have been
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: in there, and yeah, but does that detract No, this
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: is just perfection as a show. And I just can't
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: wait for what we are going to get in season two.
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: And I'm so thankful we know it's coming out and
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: so and I can't wait to on Aggressive Negotiations, just
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: dive in more to all the different little implications of
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: all the ramifications of the things that we saw. It's
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: gonna be great. We have so much fodder coming. But John,
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: the beauty is is that not only are we going
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: to have another crossover coming with the Mando and Grogu,
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: but I feel like we're gonna have for like the
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: rest of the year fodder for Aggressive Negotiations to talk
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: more in depth about both of these things. And then
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: knowing next year that Ahsoka season two and then Starfighter
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: are going to come out man It and celebration in
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 2: which we're both gonna go to man It. Twenty twenty
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: seven is just gonna be a riproar in great time
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: for Star Wars. But if people wanted to catch up
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: with you and talk to you more, where do they
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: find you?
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: Look me up this kessel Junkie Online K S s
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: E l j U n KIE. The social networks I
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: prefer are good reads and letterboxed because I can't get
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: into too much trouble talking about books and movies because
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: I love to and that's not controversial. And you can
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: of course find me over on the Nerd Party Network
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: on a show called house Lights that I co host
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 3: with Darren Moser and Tristan Ridell, and another show called
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 3: Well the show is crossing over with us Aggressive Negotiations
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: with you, Matt, and so you know, I think that's
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 3: a great way to kick it over and say where
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 3: else can people find you?
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all over social media under the name Matt Rushing
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 2: Zoe too. Of course you'll find me on the TFM
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: network with all the great star Trek Talk with Chris Jones,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: So please check out all those shows, especially as Saddle
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 2: Up comes back this summer, and then over on the
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: nerd Party Network with Aggressive Negotiations, you'll find out posts
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: where I'm talking about every single chapter the Harry Potter series,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: one chapter time. But John, I mean, I hear that
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 2: they are going to be serving some medium rare filet
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: at Rena's establishment. So I think it's time to close
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: these negotiations.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 3: Master Rushing, negotiations are closed, and y'all come back now
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 3: you're here.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: Join the revolution, Join the Nerd Party.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: MM hm