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Geoffrey V. Dudley, Sr. on Navigating Ministry Without Losing Yourself · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with
0:50
Dr. Jeffrey V. Dudley Sr.
0:53
Dr. Dudley is a retired Air Force
0:55
chaplain, bishop, authority and leadership
0:58
coach. A lifelong minister and
1:00
visionary leader, Dr. Dudley is the founding
1:03
pastor of New Life in Christ Church, one
1:06
of the fastest growing churches in the St.
1:09
Louis metro area, and the CEO
1:12
of New Life Community Development Corporation,
1:15
which leads major community initiatives,
1:18
including a $20 million affordable
1:20
housing project. A uh, John Maxwell
1:23
associate trainer and author of six books,
1:26
including Leading Through Storms. He
1:29
also mentors leaders through
1:31
ileadacademy.net and changing
1:33
lives Ministries. He and his wife, Glenda,
1:36
have two adult children engaged in ministry
1:39
and nonprofit leadership. A
1:42
reminder, before we start today's conversation,
1:45
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave
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a review, and share Future Christian with a friend.
1:51
Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian
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laurensonatemediapro
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uh.com with
2:00
comments, questions or ideas for future
2:03
episodes. We appreciate your voice
2:06
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
2:09
church.
2:19
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name
2:22
is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm glad to be recording
2:25
today with Bishop Dudley. Thank, uh, you so much for
2:28
your, uh, presence here and your conversation.
2:31
Uh, thanks for being here and anything else you want to say about
2:34
yourself before we begin?
2:36
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Well, you know, I'm not sure what I want to say other
2:38
than I'm thankful that you have me on. I know you're going to
2:41
ask me a lot of other questions. I was thinking about that when you said,
2:44
okay, what else would you want to say that's not already in
2:47
your bio? Right? Thing that came to my mind is that I
2:50
like, uh, butter, um, butter
2:53
pecan ice cream. How about that? So we start with that.
2:57
>> Loren: That's a good, that's a good one to share. You know, it
3:00
reminds me, I had an interview a
3:03
while back and they asked me, what would your, what kind of ice cream would you be if
3:06
you're an ice cream? And it really Threw me. So I think
3:08
butter pecan would be a good answer actually for that kind of question.
3:12
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: So true, so true.
3:15
>> Loren: Well, uh, share if you would, kind of about your faith background,
3:18
uh, how that, how that journey began and what
3:21
that looks like today.
3:22
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Well, um, I gave my life to Christ, uh, at the
3:25
age of 12 at a summer
3:28
Christian camp of our denomination. I'm,
3:31
uh, I come up in a Pentecostal holiness,
3:34
um, um, faith
3:37
background. And um, it
3:39
actually is the oldest incorporated Pentecostal
3:42
denomination in the country, United Only Church
3:45
of America Incorporated. And so I gave my life
3:48
to Christ, uh, at that summer camp,
3:50
um, in the, uh, right off
3:53
the beach of North Carolina, near
3:56
Wilmington. Never will Forget it at 12.
3:59
And uh, and from there, you know,
4:02
just kind of matriculated through the denomination. And I
4:05
came into. I, um, had this
4:08
sense of a call on my life at
4:11
age 13, uh, because from my tradition,
4:14
you can come and minister whenever you sense
4:17
to call on your life. And I did.
4:20
And um, and I had a brother
4:23
who was in the navy at the time. He came home. I
4:26
played basketball. Never forget it. He said, you know, he
4:29
said, jeff, you would you.
4:32
There's a chaplain in the Navy. And he
4:35
described the duties of the chaplain.
4:38
It resonated with me. From that point on, I
4:41
wanted to serve as a chaplain and I was blessed to
4:44
serve as an Air force chaplain for
4:47
21 and a half years. Yeah.
4:52
>> Loren: What has been some serious practices that you have sustained
4:55
you during your ministry career?
4:58
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Prayer.
4:59
>> Speaker E: Prayer.
5:00
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Prayer. First and foremost,
5:03
prayer. And then, um, quiet
5:06
time. Close to quiet time. Prayer is
5:08
one. Quiet time is 1A,
5:11
1B, if you will, would be
5:14
reading. I enjoy reading. If I could
5:17
sit somewhere and read
5:19
and think, uh, about half a
5:22
day I'd be happy. I get something to eat
5:25
and go back to sleep and wake up and do the thing the
5:28
next day.
5:29
>> Loren: Love it.
5:30
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Prayer, reading and quiet time.
5:31
>> Loren: Uh, that's a good day. That's a good day. You know,
5:34
it strikes me that I don't know if
5:37
you remember such things, but I certainly remember as a
5:40
kid reading about these stories of these ancient, or
5:43
shouldn't say ancient, but past Christian leaders talking about
5:46
committing two to three hours, you know, a
5:49
morning to prayer and scripture. Now it just
5:52
seems like the societal
5:55
pressure is that how could anyone commit, you know,
5:58
it'd be a waste to commit two to three hours, you know, just
6:01
grand prayer and scripture.
6:04
It's sad that it's, it's come to that, right?
6:07
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Mhm. Yeah. Because
6:10
uh, we are so
6:13
filled with what to do next
6:18
and uh, when you say that,
6:20
it's almost. Yeah. How can
6:23
anyone in our faith say
6:26
three hours of prayer is a waste?
6:29
M. Uh, okay, let's be scriptural. Jesus says
6:32
one hour, so maybe three hours is too.
6:38
How about that? Let's, let's, let's. Let's be
6:40
ultra spiritual here and say, uh, let's. Jesus
6:43
says one hour. So let's say.
6:45
>> Loren: That's great. That's great.
6:47
Uh, you know, I didn't ask you anything. I don't have
6:50
anything. You know, the questions I have for you about.
6:53
Are primarily about your book, but I feel like it would be
6:56
important just to say something about your career in
6:59
military chaplaincy. I work part
7:02
time right now as a hospital chaplain, and I'm certainly, you know,
7:05
certainly slightly different work than a military chaplain, I
7:07
suppose, in that, you know, you sustained longer
7:10
relationships with
7:13
folks in the military there than I necessarily do as a hospital
7:16
chaplain. But anything you want to say just about your career as a
7:19
chaplain that led you or formed
7:22
you into your current role in church ministry?
7:26
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Being a Air Force chaplain
7:28
is the next best job to what I do now.
7:32
There's no better job
7:35
than that call on your life. And to be
7:37
able to carry that call on your life while serving your
7:40
country and wearing the cloth of your country,
7:43
uh, to me, unmatched.
7:47
M. Completely unmatched. You are in the very
7:50
midst. And there was a thing that we had when I was
7:53
active duty that they would
7:56
say, okay, what's our purpose? What's our mission? You're
7:59
in the midst of everything. And it was the presence of the
8:02
holy. M. And in
8:04
the midst of war, in the midst of
8:07
life and death, in the midst of all of that,
8:11
you are the presence of the holy.
8:15
And that, to me, is a
8:18
formidable place
8:21
to be. And, uh, I count it
8:25
next to what I do now as nothing
8:28
greater to do than that.
8:30
>> Speaker E: Wow.
8:31
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: To have done than that.
8:33
>> Loren: And correct me if I'm wrong on the timing here, but I imagine
8:36
it's not like you served. You know, you served during some tense
8:39
times in our nation when. When
8:42
soldiers were at war, going to war. Correct?
8:45
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: That's correct. Um, I was in.
8:48
During, uh, Desert Storm. I was
8:51
in, of course, the aftermath of that.
8:53
Uh, I was in. I served in areas
8:57
highly secret areas where I could not wear my
8:59
cross, had to take my uniform off.
9:02
Uh, what we used to call,
9:04
uh, we used to call it the sandbox
9:08
and Saudi uae, so on and so forth.
9:12
Um, and then also,
9:15
uh, I served, you know,
9:18
predominantly peacetime, uh, if you will,
9:21
and any Time of service.
9:24
But those times of service are, uh, particularly,
9:27
uh, uh, unforgettable.
9:30
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
9:32
>> Loren: Well, I suppose this leads into a quote from
9:35
your book that really struck me. And I can imagine
9:38
how your experience shaped this
9:41
sentence or two. That battles
9:44
are inevitable and preparation is
9:46
intentional. Would you share
9:49
what brought you to that realization and how
9:52
they shaped this book? And I suppose we should
9:55
give a shout out. The title of the book is Leading through
9:58
Storms. The title in itself, which struck me,
10:00
uh, as important and
10:04
meaningful. So do you want to share about, uh,
10:07
those words there?
10:09
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: You're leading through storms while maintaining,
10:12
uh, your mental health.
10:15
And if anybody
10:19
should know that battles are
10:21
inevitable, it is
10:24
those who are leading
10:27
with respect to our faith.
10:31
Um, and if you are in
10:34
leadership, even the more so.
10:36
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
10:37
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Because if you are having impact
10:40
and kingdom building, then you are going to
10:43
have opposition. Jesus said it
10:45
himself, uh, the kingdom
10:48
is captured, um,
10:51
by violence. The violence take
10:54
it by storm. How do we
10:56
avoid that? It is inevitable
11:01
because, uh, what does he say? Upon
11:04
this rock I build my church, and the very gates of
11:07
hell will not prevail.
11:08
>> Speaker E: Right.
11:09
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: What is happening here? What is happening here is
11:12
that Jesus is saying, you are going to
11:15
have opposition. Come here, Peter, and have a seat and talk to
11:17
us. Peter, Satan
11:20
seeks to sift you, but I have
11:23
prayed that your faith will
11:26
uphold. Okay. Therefore,
11:29
I didn't. Jesus didn't say, I, I pray that you won't have
11:32
the battle. I prayed that you
11:35
have the faith through the battle.
11:37
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
11:38
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And so that's what I'm saying by
11:40
preparation has to be
11:43
intentional because the
11:46
battle is inevitable. And
11:49
I should say plural battle.
11:51
>> Loren: Battles. Yeah, that's a good point.
11:54
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
11:55
>> Loren: You know, something that struck me too about your book is
12:00
certainly I've seen this and, uh, obviously you have too,
12:02
where there's an over spiritualization of
12:05
crisis. As you write about, you caution leaders
12:08
in the book. And again, I really appreciate this. I
12:11
think you and I would both agree there are times.
12:14
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: There are.
12:15
>> Loren: Whether it's these spiritual powers
12:19
are, uh, sometimes attacking us in our ministries. Right.
12:22
But I really appreciated how you note that
12:25
it can be too easy to blame
12:28
everything on the devil.
12:31
So I want to hear more about why you think this is such
12:34
a tempting move and how we can respond
12:37
to crisis with discernment and
12:40
not necessarily bypassing responsibility. Because
12:42
sometimes crises are, um, of our own making.
12:45
Right.
12:48
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: The choices we make sometimes makes it
12:51
easy for the enemy.
12:52
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
12:53
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a great way to say it. Yes.
12:59
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Sometimes he can chill for the day.
13:03
You know, the choice that Was not a smart
13:06
choice.
13:06
>> Speaker E: Yes.
13:07
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Or I did yield to temptation.
13:10
>> Loren: That yes.
13:11
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And I think we'd be far better off. And,
13:15
and, and let's not spend a lot of
13:18
time of devil navel
13:20
gazing.
13:23
Um, because
13:27
it is easy to then
13:30
uh, um, eject
13:33
responsibility when you then
13:36
blame others to. Including
13:39
Satan.
13:40
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
13:40
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, and
13:44
spending a lot of time.
13:46
And I am one who believes in spiritual
13:49
warfare. I am one who
13:52
believes. And since you. And knowing
13:55
your enemy, then knowing yourself.
13:59
Um, but the
14:01
fact is that if you
14:04
over spiritualize the battles,
14:08
you may inevitably throw your hands up,
14:10
uh, like a hoarder. Hoarders
14:14
say they soon
14:16
become overwhelmed. That's
14:19
in part, of course, it's a mental disorder.
14:23
Uh, but they soon become overwhelmed to where they
14:26
just give up and do nothing.
14:28
>> Loren: Right.
14:28
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Therefore the hoarding becomes to a
14:31
point where it becomes even life
14:33
threatening.
14:35
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
14:35
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: So it is with our walk with
14:38
uh, the Lord and not uh, over spiritualizing. You
14:41
can so over spiritualize and
14:44
give the enemy so much credit and so
14:47
much weight and so much power that
14:50
the enemy does not have. Satan doesn't have you
14:53
throw your hands up. Yeah,
14:55
that's what I really mean, um, by
14:58
that.
15:00
>> Loren: Well, I'm appreciating this perspective. I feel like
15:03
there's some correlation here to what you all also
15:06
write about just slightly before this in the book
15:09
about pruning and being canceled as
15:12
a blessing.
15:13
And that struck me, I think.
15:17
So I for sure want to hear more about that because you write
15:20
about this process as a gift.
15:23
Can you share more about your own experience and how you've
15:26
come to foresee it that see it that way?
15:30
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: In my book. Um, you know, and so let
15:32
me put this in context. Our conversation.
15:35
>> Speaker E: Yeah, yeah.
15:35
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: In my, in my book, um, uh, leading
15:38
through storms successfully, uh, navigating
15:41
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
15:44
In, in my book I talk about how I planted
15:47
the church. Right. Coming out of the
15:50
military, highly successful military career.
15:53
Now the church, um, is
15:56
a church plant and
15:58
um, it is a highly
16:01
successful church plant. And then
16:04
of course the inevitability of
16:06
opposition comes and begins
16:09
to attack. And so
16:13
uh, with that, when we, when we get
16:16
into that whole piece now,
16:19
now we talk about
16:21
um, how then
16:24
do I deal with what is going
16:27
on? How do, how do we get
16:30
through, through this moment?
16:35
Um, and as you are getting
16:37
through the moment,
16:42
there are times when you are canceled.
16:44
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
16:45
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And there is nothing more heart
16:48
wrenching I think to a,
16:51
a pastor, a
16:53
spiritual leader, whether you're over life group, whether
16:56
you're over a uh, team of,
16:59
uh, greeters at the door, whether you
17:02
are the senior pastor, uh, when
17:05
someone comes and says, I want off your team.
17:08
>> Speaker E: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:11
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And, and so they're counseling you. Well, what
17:14
about when you. In my book, I talk about. There
17:17
was a sense, I felt as if, uh, you know, we
17:20
had this, this, um, uh, one of our leaders
17:24
had, uh, a, uh, failure of judgment.
17:27
I made a decision. He, uh,
17:29
left. And then, um,
17:32
then I had in succession
17:35
the youth pastor, the worship leader,
17:39
the executive pastor, all
17:42
stage left. You
17:45
want to talk about feeling canceled?
17:47
>> Speaker E: Right.
17:49
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, and
17:52
in those moments, I think
17:55
you have to really grab a hold
17:57
of what is your leadership ability,
18:01
how do you lead out of this? And better
18:04
yet, how do you lead yourself?
18:07
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
18:09
>> Loren: I think this leads into another thing that struck me from
18:12
your book. Again, one of the things I appreciate about
18:15
your book is you have these like kind of real
18:18
simple, succinct sentences that really pack
18:21
a punch. They really say a lot. In short,
18:24
in a short phrase, you cannot bleed on
18:27
the people. And that's such a strong
18:30
image to me because maybe
18:33
because I've seen this, where someone is dealing with
18:36
the kind of setbacks you talk about. You write about
18:39
where folks on the ministry team are leaving or
18:42
the ministry is not going well in a season and they
18:45
get up on stage, they get up on the platform and they just start.
18:49
Or maybe it's in a board meeting and they just start bleeding out
18:51
on the people. Uh,
18:54
certainly we want to be like authentic,
18:58
but talk about that, the boundary
19:01
and why those boundaries are important of being authentic
19:04
but not being boundaryless, as you say.
19:07
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: The fact is that
19:09
I think you have to make sure
19:14
that
19:17
you can't blame sheep for being sheep.
19:20
>> Speaker E: Hmm.
19:22
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Did you think they were going to turn into something else?
19:26
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
19:27
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: When it came in the fold, they were sheep.
19:31
Sheep. At the slightest
19:34
disturbance, scatter.
19:37
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
19:39
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: We have this image, we know it well in John
19:42
10 where he says, Jesus says, I'm the
19:45
door.
19:46
>> Speaker E: Right?
19:46
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Where he actually. And what. We know this
19:49
from the Palestinian culture,
19:52
uh, that the shepherds
19:54
then on, on the meadow side
19:57
puts the smallest of obstacles
20:00
around them to keep them. And then he lays in the door
20:03
and they have to come in and out through him.
20:07
Uh, we know this image from the 23rd Psalms
20:10
when he says, uh, he leadeth them besides
20:13
the steel, water battling water,
20:17
they won't drink. It's disturbance. They
20:19
easily are, uh, disturbed and
20:21
scattered. So when things happen
20:24
in the fold and in the flock and they
20:27
begin to get disturbed,
20:31
why would you bleed on them for Acting
20:34
like sheep.
20:35
>> Speaker E: Hmm.
20:38
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And then. Okay, it hurts, Bishop.
20:41
Yeah, it does. What, uh, do I do with my
20:44
hurt? If you're not careful, if
20:47
you don't find a place to put it,
20:51
you will then, in fact, put it on
20:53
them. So how do you avoid that? Yeah, you
20:56
avoid it by preaching
20:59
series.
21:01
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
21:03
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Therefore, you don't. You. You don't on.
21:06
On Thursday, Friday, preparation.
21:09
Or if you're Saturday night, uh, wonder,
21:12
uh, preparation. You then dig
21:15
into something that's hurting you, and it comes out in the
21:18
message. So you do series.
21:21
You have quiet time, prayer time,
21:25
reading time. You have a
21:27
counselor. You have a counselor.
21:30
Uh, therapy is a good thing.
21:33
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
21:33
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: That you can take this pain and place it there.
21:37
Uh, you have a mentor. So how do you not
21:39
do that?
21:40
>> Loren: Right.
21:41
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: You do want to do it. I mean, who
21:44
doesn't want. Uh, my homiletics
21:46
professor used to say it's deferred
21:49
anger.
21:50
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
21:51
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, and if you don't deal with
21:54
it, they're going to hear from you.
21:56
>> Speaker E: Right. Right.
21:58
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And you're going to use the power of the pulpit.
22:01
>> Speaker E: Right.
22:02
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, you know, set some people straight.
22:05
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
22:05
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, but Sunday morning
22:08
and Wednesday night ain't the time to do that.
22:11
>> Loren: You know, it's interesting you. You. You say that because
22:14
certainly, I mean, other contexts have had, or, excuse me, other
22:17
conversations I've had with people, even around, like, change
22:20
and worship styles. You know, they say, like, Sunday
22:23
morning is not the time to bring change
22:26
to your church. Like, that's. Like you want to do that.
22:30
Well, in smaller and more
22:32
controlled environments. I can
22:35
imagine. Certainly, uh, there are times where you want to
22:38
speak powerfully
22:41
about whether it's something going on in society, whether
22:44
it's going on within your church. How do you
22:47
discern then? How have you
22:50
experienced this? When is the time? I
22:53
mean, is it running through? Running this
22:55
by your mentors, your advisors?
22:59
Like, now is the time where I need to speak powerfully
23:02
to the whole church on this.
23:04
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: I think you do. Um,
23:06
uh, in my case, I had an executive coach,
23:10
which was very helpful.
23:12
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
23:12
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: But he's not in that place to have an executive coach.
23:17
Uh, and so, yeah, I think you run that and filter
23:20
those things through them. But at the end of the day, like
23:22
you said, there are times
23:25
when a formidable,
23:29
um, moment
23:31
must take place on Sunday morning
23:35
that you have to call the church into
23:37
being what it's supposed to be on a Sunday
23:40
morning. And that means. And I
23:43
would say you do that through a series. You
23:46
do that, uh, from a groundswell.
23:49
Um, given my. Like, I Said I
23:52
come from a Pentecostal holiness background.
23:55
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
23:56
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, um.
23:58
And there are times when the Holy Spirit moves
24:01
that you must speak forcibly
24:04
to. It's time to pivot from where
24:07
we are. I. So I don't
24:10
shrink from that. I don't shrink from that.
24:13
Uh, it's just that, ah. Make sure it's not
24:16
wrapped in anger.
24:18
>> Speaker E: Yeah, Yeah.
24:21
>> Loren: I mean, I suppose it ties back to
24:24
much of what you've already said here and I think is such an important
24:27
theme of the book is understanding yourself,
24:30
being aware of yourself, being aware of
24:33
your own stuff. And I think this
24:35
transitions to. What really
24:39
struck me in your book is just
24:42
your honesty, your vulnerability
24:45
in the book, which really struck me powerfully. And I
24:48
want to recommend it for readers too.
24:54
I want to say you write that we
24:57
are not what we feel. You say
25:00
it for first person or second person. You are not what you
25:02
feel. And I think we've all been.
25:05
Certainly you write about your seasons in ministry,
25:09
difficult seasons in ministry, in the book.
25:12
Um, of feeling
25:15
devastated. What
25:18
was helpful for you when you think about those times where
25:21
you felt devastated and
25:24
left behind? Um, what
25:27
was helpful for you in creating that distinction between
25:30
your feelings and yourself?
25:33
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Ask me again.
25:36
>> Loren: So again I'm thinking about that quote. You are not what you
25:39
feel.
25:39
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
25:40
>> Loren: What helped you come to that
25:43
distinction?
25:46
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: I think, and that's a great question.
25:49
I think the distinguishing
25:52
thing is of course, being
25:55
authentic, of course, knowing yourself.
25:58
Um, and
26:03
knowing that feelings are real.
26:06
But feelings are not you.
26:09
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
26:10
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: In as much as
26:13
we are spirit beings
26:17
on our way to eternity
26:20
in a
26:23
physical world. And
26:26
I have to understand
26:30
that this
26:33
moment of emotion
26:37
is, is. Is a tactical moment,
26:40
not a eternal or strategic
26:43
moment. And if I turn it into
26:45
that, it could be devastating.
26:49
Um, so to that end.
26:52
So to that end, I have to
26:55
distinguish that I'm not
26:58
my feelings.
27:00
Um, ah, and let me back up,
27:03
uh, and say this.
27:06
When you.
27:12
Ontologically, you have to
27:15
know you.
27:17
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
27:20
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And if you
27:22
don't, then your feelings will get the
27:25
best of you.
27:26
>> Speaker E: Hmm. Yeah.
27:31
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And then let's make it even. Let's make it
27:34
spiritual.
27:35
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
27:36
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: You have to know whose you are.
27:38
>> Speaker E: Yes.
27:41
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And so to that end,
27:44
you're not your feelings. And
27:47
when I was up against that, when I had all of these
27:50
exits in ministry,
27:52
um, when I'm having. In the middle
27:55
of construction a bank to pull out.
27:59
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
27:59
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Now I have red iron in the air.
28:02
Kind of hard to grow a church when the people come on the campus,
28:06
not great optics, and they
28:08
know there's not great optics at all.
28:12
And they come on the campus and they see a
28:15
half built church.
28:16
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
28:17
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, that's tough.
28:20
Um, and then you have to find
28:23
things that you hang on
28:26
and you give the church to hang
28:29
on. I use this phrase then.
28:32
I still use it now. God calls us to
28:35
do the hard thing. I used to tell the church that,
28:39
that we are, uh, one of the churches in this community that
28:42
God calls to do the hard thing. He doesn't call every
28:45
church to do the hard thing. For whatever reason,
28:48
he called us to do the hard thing.
28:51
And so when you realize that,
28:54
then you can't languish in this
28:57
moment. I remember this, I'll say this and we can move on.
29:00
Um, I would come on the campus and
29:03
okay, half of the sanctuary expansion is,
29:06
uh, come on the campus and half the campus
29:09
is not done right. And uh,
29:12
there's weeds growing up. All of this.
29:15
And it hits me, it
29:18
hits me, you guys
29:21
need to get out here and cut this grass,
29:24
do all of this, clean up where this half
29:26
construction site is left. Because we were trying to get
29:29
another lender, right.
29:31
>> Loren: More funding.
29:33
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And so it was a Saturday.
29:36
The men had our Saturday morning breakfast,
29:39
monthly breakfast. And I told the men, it's ministry.
29:42
I said, look, after we have our breakfast,
29:45
after we have our, uh, teaching for that morning,
29:49
we're all going out here. Get your weed eater, get your
29:52
stuff, get all of that. We're going to clean this thing up.
29:55
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
29:55
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Do you not know, within months
30:00
after we did that, we
30:03
got the funding.
30:05
>> Speaker E: Wow.
30:06
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Continue to mean that was more
30:09
than a moment or
30:11
coincidental.
30:13
>> Loren: Absolutely.
30:13
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Correlation.
30:14
>> Loren: Absolutely.
30:15
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: It had everything to do with us
30:18
moving in faith.
30:20
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
30:21
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Had everything to do with us.
30:23
Back to this feeling thing.
30:25
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
30:26
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Not woe is me.
30:27
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
30:28
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: I'm not gonna. We're not our feelings,
30:32
we're not victims.
30:34
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
30:36
>> Loren: I don't know what. This has always been hard for
30:39
me, I suppose, to
30:42
accept begrudgingly in my own life, in own
30:45
experience. But uh, there really is such a
30:48
truth to that that God
30:51
says, like, I get you can't,
30:54
you know, build the whole ship, but I need you to at least bring the tools or,
30:57
you know, whatever the metaphor you want to use. So
31:00
it strikes me that in that season
31:02
of I can imagine, immense
31:05
frustration, great pain, disillusionment,
31:10
you know, you want to just like let that go
31:13
and go to rot and say, woe is me. And then
31:15
you say, let's clean this up.
31:19
It's a little thing you and the
31:22
church chose to be faithful with.
31:24
Ah. So I'm appreciating because
31:27
I'm in a season of life where I'm just trying to tell myself
31:30
what has God placed in front of me that I can be faithful with?
31:35
So, uh, I'm appreciating that
31:37
testimony even now and I hope
31:40
what's helpful for our listeners because just such a good
31:43
reminder, I do want to ask
31:46
on this too, because I think it was again, something that struck me
31:49
powerfully from your book and I want to respect
31:53
your boundaries here. So share your
31:56
as much or as little as you're comfortable sharing within your own,
31:59
your own boundaries, your vulnerabilities. But
32:01
I think it really struck me about your honesty about your
32:04
suicidal ideations during that time.
32:07
So then I want to respect your boundaries and what
32:10
you're comfortable sharing. But anything you're willing to share just
32:13
about that, because again, that struck me as just
32:16
powerful honesty.
32:19
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Thank you for the opportunity. Uh, actually,
32:22
because I do think it is something that we need to talk about.
32:27
Uh, I do think we, we need to be
32:30
honest with ourselves,
32:33
with the weight of ministry.
32:36
>> Loren: Yes.
32:37
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And how we
32:40
pull it to ourselves and not to
32:43
him.
32:43
>> Speaker E: Oh, yeah.
32:46
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um,
32:49
I think don't want to put on
32:52
ministers. Some of us
32:55
have a superhero conflict.
32:58
Some of us. Not all of us.
33:00
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
33:01
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: You know, a lot of, you know, everybody, uh,
33:04
I don't put that on everybody but one or two of
33:07
us.
33:07
>> Speaker E: Right.
33:09
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Got into this whole thing to go into the
33:12
phone, uh, booth and come out and save the world. World.
33:15
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
33:15
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: I mean, let's face it.
33:17
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
33:18
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: We have that sense. And in that
33:21
whole approach. And again, you know,
33:24
it's, it's um, you know, leading through
33:27
storms, successfully navigating
33:29
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
33:32
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
33:33
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Not at all suggesting that anyone, to include
33:36
myself, are mentally ill.
33:39
Yeah. Not that that is something.
33:41
Ooh. Ah, shame. Because
33:45
that's an illness, like cancer, like
33:48
heart disease, whatever. But in
33:51
the midst of that, that pressure,
33:54
in the midst of driving on that campus
33:56
and half done, in the
33:59
midst of families coming and
34:02
saying, I'm going to find somewhere else to worship.
34:05
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
34:06
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: In the midst of leading the corps, who stuck
34:09
with the whole vision, and I thank God for
34:12
them. And in the midst of coming on the
34:15
other side of that, I did suffer
34:17
with. How do I solve this problem?
34:20
Leaders solve.
34:22
>> Speaker E: Yes. Yep.
34:24
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: They solve problems. How do I solve
34:27
this? What came to me,
34:30
the best way to solve this,
34:34
Take myself out of the equation.
34:37
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
34:38
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Suicide.
34:38
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
34:40
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Let the key man, uh,
34:42
insurance.
34:44
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
34:44
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: For everything. Church
34:47
moves on. I'm not worried. I'm in
34:50
glory.
34:50
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
34:51
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Um, and that's what I
34:54
had said to myself in the book.
34:57
I talk about this, uh, I'd
35:00
encourage people to get it to, to see.
35:04
So here I am. I am gone
35:07
to preach for, uh, a
35:10
seminary buddy whose ministry who's
35:12
absolutely exploded.
35:15
Mega situation. Truly a mega
35:18
situation. Satellite churches
35:20
everywhere. And he finally gives
35:23
me a nod. He thinks about his old buddy,
35:30
finally gives me a shot, like, now you finally remember
35:33
me. Don't you remember we went through seminary together, both of us. We were
35:36
pretty poor, uh, pretty pathetic kind of
35:39
guys. And now. So it gives me an
35:42
opportunity to come and minister. I get there.
35:44
I'm totally, um,
35:47
preoccupied with the moment. I'm
35:49
overwhelmed with my situation and my context.
35:54
And, uh, I have been trying to debate
35:57
back and forward with the
35:59
lenders who are threatening to come and
36:02
give me and say, take the keys and all of that.
36:05
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
36:06
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And I'm thinking,
36:09
this is the best way out.
36:12
This is what else?
36:15
And then my executive
36:18
coach calls me, not
36:21
knowing at all. I have been trying to call
36:24
him because we're trying to put together a strategy,
36:28
calls me back. He says
36:31
something to me I will never ever
36:34
forget. He says,
36:37
jeff,
36:40
if you do this,
36:44
you will not know how God is
36:46
going to bring you out.
36:56
I just think about that.
37:01
I ain't gone. I moved back from
37:04
the window.
37:06
Um,
37:09
it had to be God.
37:13
Had to be God. I
37:16
stepped back.
37:19
I'm in tears. I get
37:22
it together. I minister that night,
37:25
my friend, my seminary buddy, he never knows
37:28
what is, what's going on.
37:31
Uh,
37:34
and that moment. And in that
37:37
moment, I quit. And
37:40
I say this in my book, I quit marching
37:43
to the drum beat of that
37:46
ideation. But m to the fact
37:49
that. And he encouraged
37:52
me because a coach does not do
37:55
therapy. So he encouraged me to
37:58
get with my therapist. We began
38:01
to talk about that
38:03
superhero.
38:06
But you came back. Yeah,
38:09
Jesus, they already pull
38:12
lots for his robe.
38:16
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
38:16
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: You don't have to die for this. He already dies.
38:20
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
38:23
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Yeah. That was one of the
38:26
most pivotal moments in
38:29
my ministry.
38:30
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
38:32
>> Loren: Well, I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful for you sharing
38:35
that both in your book and, you know, here on
38:38
this, this podcast.
38:41
I just, you know, I'm struck by
38:44
the importance, just like you said, of sharing these things.
38:47
I, uh, just had to do a training, you know, in my chaplaincy role
38:50
for, you know, suicide ideation. And I think it's so
38:53
hard. We want to kind of be
38:56
around the bush and not have these direct
38:59
conversations. But I'm just reminded of even in my
39:02
training about how asking direct questions, you know,
39:05
to people and how are you feeling? Like, are you thinking
39:08
about harming yourself? Like, these kind of conversations, they do matter,
39:11
and they do have an impact.
39:13
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: They do. And it's the same, or probably.
39:16
Um, I'm sure I had a similar training when I was a chaplain.
39:19
>> Speaker E: Right, right.
39:20
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And we do step away. We do shy away from
39:22
asking that because we don't want to project.
39:25
We don't want to seem like, oh, are you crazy?
39:28
We don't want to do all of those things. Excuse
39:31
me. Uh, and those are hard conversations. And in
39:34
fact, the person on the other end,
39:37
that's exactly what they need to hear.
39:39
>> Speaker E: Yeah. Yeah.
39:43
>> Loren: Well, I really, again, I really appreciate your sharing
39:45
that. Um, I suppose before.
39:49
One last question here before we take a break, I think, again,
39:51
a simple quote. You said that
39:55
that resonated me here from the book. You know, you said, plant the
39:58
church first. Again, you
40:00
ended the book, or near the end of the book with that. It
40:03
sounds simple, but I can see so much beneath the surface.
40:06
Anything you want to say to that end?
40:09
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Yeah, you know, we, um, did something
40:13
that I do not encourage church
40:16
planters to do, and I'm in the
40:18
midst of planting some more churches.
40:22
And we were building and planting
40:25
and building the people at the same time.
40:28
I would never do that again. I would
40:32
plant the church as in grow the
40:34
people before I try to build a building.
40:37
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
40:39
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Because, um, doing both
40:43
not recommended, unless you enjoy pain.
40:46
Um, um, because it's
40:49
tough. And that's what I was saying then.
40:52
And I would. I plan on doing that approach
40:55
going forward as we plant some other churches from
40:58
our mother church.
41:00
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
41:01
>> Loren: Good stuff. Well, the book is Leading through
41:03
storms, successfully navigating
41:06
ministry while maintaining your mental health.
41:09
I hope, listeners, you got a sense of just how
41:12
powerful, uh, the book is. And, um, Bishop
41:15
Dudley's testimony and words here are in the
41:18
book. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some
41:20
closing questions.
41:25
Okay. We're back with Bishop, uh, Jeffrey Dudley,
41:28
Sr. I should add the senior, because I am actually
41:31
myself a junior, and, uh, my father
41:34
is a pastor, too. These closing questions, you're
41:37
welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like
41:39
to. But if you're a pope for a day,
41:43
what might you want to do with that day?
41:46
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: If I was Pope for the day,
41:49
I would call together all of the world
41:52
leaders, faith leaders, and
41:55
I would try to solve the
41:58
problem in Gaza.
42:00
>> Speaker E: M. Yeah.
42:02
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: The starvation that is happening. And I
42:05
would try to get the political leaders
42:08
to see humanity and not political
42:12
power.
42:13
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
42:15
>> Loren: You know,
42:18
I was struck by that this morning and had been
42:21
thinking, praying,
42:24
even on my limited impact,
42:28
how can I move the needle towards
42:31
humanity
42:34
in that regard? My goodness,
42:36
uh, awful.
42:41
Do you have a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
42:43
meet or bring back to life?
42:46
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: 2 I would want to bring back
42:49
to life and meet Bonhoeffer and
42:52
Martin Luther King Jr. I love to sit down and talk with
42:55
them. Then I'd love for them to lead
42:57
us in this very divisive
43:00
moment that we find ourselves in right now.
43:03
Bonhoeffer, because he uh,
43:06
was very, ah, insightful
43:09
in seeing, uh, the waywardness of,
43:12
um, Christians in that moment
43:15
and their parochialism,
43:18
um, and being used by the government
43:21
to advance, ah, political agenda and not,
43:24
uh, kingdom agenda and Martin
43:27
Luther King, uh, in that,
43:31
uh, very similar age, uh,
43:34
and causing uh, the country
43:37
to live up to its ideals.
43:40
>> Speaker E: Yeah, yeah.
43:42
>> Loren: Well, I suppose another potentially heavy question here.
43:45
What do you think history will remember from our current time
43:48
and place?
43:50
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: I think, kids, history will see us
43:53
as revisiting and reliving,
43:56
uh, Reconstruction.
43:59
We are in now a neo real
44:01
Reconstruction moment.
44:03
>> Loren: Interesting.
44:04
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: After the Civil War,
44:07
um, there was great,
44:09
um, acceleration
44:12
of former
44:14
enslaved people, African
44:17
Americans. Um, quickly
44:19
after that, uh, we went into
44:22
Jim Crow, which was a white lash
44:25
against the moving
44:28
forward of African Americans.
44:31
And for that time, the late
44:34
1800s to the early 1900s.
44:37
From that time to, uh, we were into
44:40
um, um, we were
44:43
in uh, the Jim Crow era
44:46
and uh, the segregation era all the way
44:49
up to the 40s and the 50s,
44:52
so about 40 years. That's four decades.
44:55
Uh, we move now into now
44:58
a post Obama era.
45:01
I call it a neo Reconstruction
45:04
era. And I think, uh, history,
45:08
when it looks back in this moment, we'll see we
45:11
are now again revisiting those things
45:14
because the same types of
45:17
advances with laws are
45:20
happening, um, equal to
45:23
that then. And so I think when we
45:26
look at uh, peace, we will see
45:28
that and the shrinking of
45:32
what um, is the church doing.
45:34
>> Speaker E: Hmm.
45:34
>> Loren: I'm struck by that. I don't think I've heard it in that
45:37
phrasing or that that context. And I think
45:40
that makes a lot, a lot of sense. If I'm, if I'm
45:43
remembering history correctly, this idea that like a lot
45:46
of these, like um, like the monuments. Right.
45:49
That became a source of
45:52
attention for so many over the last few years. Like some of
45:54
these, like the Robert E. Lee memorials for instance, were
45:57
built. Right, right in that post
46:00
Reconstruction era. Am I Correct on that.
46:03
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Yeah. The 40s and the 50s as a
46:06
response to pushback.
46:09
Nothing to do with culture.
46:11
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
46:12
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Uh, had nothing to do with
46:14
um, uh, the southern culture.
46:17
Nothing. Zero,
46:19
nada.
46:21
>> Speaker E: Wow.
46:22
>> Loren: I, I again, you know, the, the quote
46:25
that's been resonating with me of late is the idea that history
46:28
may not repeat itself but sure does rhyme.
46:31
So it's a fresh like that. I don't
46:34
remember who said that, but that your, your story
46:37
sure is just another fresh reminder of that, that
46:40
being true in many ways.
46:44
Well, how about something more hopeful? What do you hope for the future
46:47
of Christianity?
46:48
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: I hope that we begin to be
46:51
more like Jesus and less like religion.
46:56
That here is Jesus,
47:00
um, the person.
47:03
And my hope is, is that
47:06
we then go hard
47:08
after him and
47:11
not after
47:15
the religiosity of being
47:18
a Christian. We have now
47:21
a movement if you will.
47:24
Um,
47:26
um, the Christian nationalism
47:30
is really a,
47:33
it is a um, movement
47:38
that somehow another people see that this is
47:40
Jesus. I'm struck by
47:43
that.
47:45
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
47:46
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Christianity is about other.
47:49
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
47:51
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And whenever you make other
47:53
an enemy.
47:55
>> Speaker E: Right.
47:55
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: That's not Christianity.
47:57
>> Speaker E: Right.
47:59
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And so, but I believe. I
48:01
believe and you say
48:04
hopeful and I agree. The hope
48:07
is this,
48:11
this hope we have in Jesus.
48:16
>> Loren: Now you're preaching here.
48:18
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Yeah, that's right.
48:20
Absolutely.
48:21
>> Speaker E: Yeah.
48:22
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: In my tradition we say hold your ear and. Yeah.
48:25
Because this hope we have in Jesus.
48:29
>> Speaker E: Mhm.
48:30
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Is there another hope? What is hope? Paul
48:33
said, what is hope if hope is not in
48:36
hope?
48:37
>> Speaker E: Right.
48:38
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: So I have that hope. I have that
48:41
hope and I'm going to preach Jesus.
48:44
>> Speaker E: Amen.
48:47
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Yeah. And I believe that.
48:50
>> Loren: Well, uh, what a blessing,
48:53
uh, and pleasure this conversation has been.
48:55
I'm so thankful for uh, your perspectives
48:58
and that you shared this with me and with our audience.
49:02
Share, if you would, how people can connect with you, get the
49:04
book, all that stuff.
49:06
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Well, what they can do, I would love for them to get
49:09
the book. It's on uh, Amazon. It's
49:12
um, at uh, Barnes and Noble or
49:15
they can go to University Varsity Press. Get it?
49:18
Well, you can just go, uh, come on my website.
49:21
The uh, church's website, uh, of course is
49:24
www uh.this is my new
49:27
life.com. this is my new
49:29
life.com. that's not hard to remember. This is
49:32
my new life dot com. That's our church website.
49:36
And you can find me on all
49:39
platforms, all social media platforms. And
49:42
that is Bishop Dudley PhD at
49:45
Bishop Dudley PhD on all of those. And
49:48
you can check uh, it out. We're right here in
49:51
the uh, on the east side of the Mississippi
49:53
river, the St. Louis metropolitan area
49:56
bedroom community, O', Fallon, Illinois.
49:59
Um, at 689 Scott Troy Road.
50:02
And we'd love for you to come by or check us out,
50:05
uh, online. Um, again, uh,
50:08
that's at New. At New
50:11
Life. Um, no, wait
50:14
a minute, let me get it right, because
50:17
we've changed it @
50:20
New Life TV. That's it.
50:21
>> Speaker E: Sure.
50:22
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: Yeah, that's it. Get your. There. Uh, you know,
50:25
the. Up. We could do stuff.
50:27
>> Loren: Your marketing person would. Would, uh, would
50:29
be gritting their teeth, I suppose. Right.
50:35
Well, again, thank you so much for the. The conversation. I appreciate
50:38
your perspectives. Uh, we always lead folks with
50:41
a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
50:43
>> Dr. Geoffrey V. Dudley Sr.: And also with you.
50:52
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
50:55
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
50:58
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51:00
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51:03
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