Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / Plugging AI Into Production: How MyOp Lets Non-Developers Ship UI Safely

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Plugging AI Into Production: How MyOp Lets Non-Developers Ship UI Safely · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

• 0:00
  Welcome to AI for Founders. I'm Ryan Estes.
• 0:02
  Today's tension is simple. AI can generate gorgeous front
• 0:06
  ends and clever flows in minutes, but most mature
• 0:08
  products still cannot get that code into production without
• 0:11
  breaking things or burning engineering time.
• 0:14
  My guest Karen Fonen, Co founder and CEO of Myop dot dev, says
• 0:20
  there's a better way. Her team built a pluggable layer
• 0:23
  that lets non developers ship UI and UX safely in isolation while
• 0:28
  engineers guard the core. In this conversation, you will
• 0:31
  learn how to move from AI assisted mockups to live
• 0:34
  measurable features, have a split ownership between product
• 0:37
  design and engineering without chaos, and how real teams are
• 0:41
  rolling out experiments, AB tests, and personalization
• 0:44
  without redeploys. If you're a founder, product
• 0:46
  leader, designer, or growth owner inside a working app with
• 0:50
  real users, this one's for you. We get into change management,
• 0:54
  outcome based pricing, designer partner tactics, raising that
• 0:57
  first 2 million, and why front end roles are about to look very
• 1:01
  different. Buckle up, software runs the
• 1:03
  world, and today we plug AI straight into it.
• 1:06
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• 1:10
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• 3:36
  We're rolling. Karen, welcome to the show.
• 3:38
  Thank you so much for joining me.
• 3:41
  Thank you for having me. Absolutely.
• 3:43
  I'm really excited about your company, my OP, largely because
• 3:47
  this has to do with vibe coding and I consider myself a
• 3:51
  connoisseur of vibe coding, so I'm super excited.
• 3:55
  So to get started, give us a introduction to your company.
• 4:03
  So Mylap is basically solving the number one blocker, keeping
• 4:10
  all of the AI vibe coding tools we all know like Lord Gemini,
• 4:14
  lovable balls, you name it, from delivering real, genuine,
• 4:19
  measurable value to mature companies.
• 4:22
  What we do is that we actually plug the output of these tools
• 4:27
  safely and directly into existing live applications.
• 4:31
  And we do that with a super simple pluggable approach.
• 4:35
  By pluggable approach, I mean that we don't actually embed the
• 4:39
  AI code directly into the existing stack, but we create a
• 4:44
  connection between them, like a contract between the inner logic
• 4:48
  and the externally generated AI code.
• 4:51
  So that the AI code behaves as if it was a native part of your
• 4:55
  app and system. The data flows in and out, but
• 4:58
  it's actually kept in isolation. It's disconnected from the core
• 5:02
  code, which gives us a couple of benefits.
• 5:06
  First of all, the core code remains stable, secured,
• 5:11
  basically untouched. So whatever you build externally
• 5:14
  with vibe coding cannot harm accidentally the inner logic.
• 5:19
  But more importantly, I think it actually empowers non
• 5:23
  developers, what I believe would be the next generation of coders
• 5:27
  in mature organization like product managers, designers,
• 5:32
  even growth managers. We empower them to get a direct
• 5:36
  access to the end user. So think about a future with my
• 5:41
  OP where you have an idea as a product manager, again designer
• 5:47
  of Rd. manager and you can build that idea externally with any
• 5:51
  bad footing tool you choose. And then you plug it into the
• 5:54
  developer handled inner logic, you QA it and it's live just
• 5:59
  like that. So no kind of long region
• 6:01
  development processes, you know, and delays and everything that
• 6:05
  we know today from the engineering process.
• 6:08
  Amazing. OK.
• 6:09
  So the, it sounds like largely this is going to be for, you
• 6:13
  know, I would say Enterprise Oregon, It's well seasoned
• 6:17
  software, the teams that are looking to create kind of a
• 6:21
  sandbox for experiments and then be able to deploy those safely
• 6:26
  once maybe all the bugs have been worked out.
• 6:28
  Is that a safe assessment? So that just not just
• 6:33
  enterprises, basically we see the pain in any mature company,
• 6:39
  any company that already have a live, a live product, real users
• 6:45
  already have something that you know, is is working and
• 6:48
  functioning. Probably invested some good
• 6:51
  years of engineering and everything that comes with that.
• 6:55
  And now they do want to move faster and adopt AI and enjoy
• 6:59
  the power of all of these amazing tools.
• 7:02
  But, you know, the output of these tools is disconnected from
• 7:07
  what you've built. And you can, in theory,
• 7:10
  integrate it manually. But then the developers would
• 7:14
  need to kind of go over line by line, read through the AI code,
• 7:19
  you know, wire rafts and props, and make the integration between
• 7:22
  the front and code that these tools create and what you
• 7:25
  already have working. And what we see is that in most
• 7:28
  cases, they would rather just build it from scratch.
• 7:32
  So, so we find ourselves, you know, not actually benefiting
• 7:37
  from what AI has to offer. And that's the streamline, the
• 7:41
  development processes and you know, to extend the power of the
• 7:46
  people that can use this part, right?
• 7:48
  Like like I believe that if a product manager that knows the
• 7:53
  user has an idea and wants to validate that idea with really
• 7:59
  users, maybe not all of them as a star, but a portion of them
• 8:02
  should have a simple way of doing that.
• 8:05
  So, so yes, we believe that any company with a with a working
• 8:10
  product can benefit from from that flow.
• 8:14
  Well, and I think early on with some of the vibe coding tools,
• 8:16
  like there's a little bit of pushback from senior engineers.
• 8:19
  They're like this is going to add AI slop or this is going to,
• 8:23
  you know, it rewrites itself every time.
• 8:25
  There was a little bit of pushback.
• 8:26
  Now I think pretty much everyone's using Copilot and
• 8:28
  everything else, but this provides, I suppose, a certain
• 8:32
  amount of security from the organizational structure and and
• 8:35
  also from the engineering team where it maybe gives them a
• 8:38
  little bit more liberty to be a little bit more creative, take a
• 8:40
  little bit more chances. Yes, I think that what we are
• 8:47
  trying to introduce is, I would say separation of
• 8:53
  responsibilities when it comes to to coding.
• 8:56
  So that engineering team using, you know, cursor copilot,
• 9:01
  whatever they choose should own the implementation model of the
• 9:06
  product, right? The, the logic behind it, the
• 9:08
  functionality, the, the, the data structure, the
• 9:11
  integrations, you know, the building blocks of the product,
• 9:16
  the core. And they should definitely use,
• 9:20
  you know, AI assistant to help them move faster, but they will
• 9:25
  still keep on validating the AI output.
• 9:28
  When we talk about the front end part, the screens, but also some
• 9:32
  front end logics, it could be animations, you know, harvest
• 9:37
  states, scrolls, drag and drops. A lot of the experiences that we
• 9:40
  as the end users see. That is a different part of the
• 9:45
  code that can be kept and managed actually in isolation
• 9:51
  from the core. And this way the engineers are
• 9:55
  not afraid that if you as a non developer created a piece of
• 10:00
  code that you could break something inside the core
• 10:03
  system. So we're kind of saying, OK,
• 10:05
  let's treat AI with, you know, with with extra care and we can
• 10:12
  give people to experiment freely, even if they are non
• 10:16
  developers, but, you know, manage the architecture behind
• 10:20
  it more carefully. I do think that it will also
• 10:22
  open the door for engineers maybe to practice with, you
• 10:28
  know, user facing experiences. But to be honest, I think that's
• 10:33
  one of the main frictions we have today that there is a
• 10:36
  handover for every feature with, you know, that that use a
• 10:42
  visible part and the back end part.
• 10:44
  Everything moves to developers to execute and not and I'm not
• 10:49
  sure they are. They want the right people to
• 10:51
  execute on everything. You know that they don't always
• 10:54
  see kind of the pixel perfect element or could sense the
• 10:58
  experience after building it like product managers and UX
• 11:02
  professionals can. Do you feel like that we're
• 11:06
  really entering into the world where everyone kind of needs to
• 11:09
  be full stack, you know, as far as a developer goes?
• 11:16
  Yeah, I think, I think that definitely for developers that
• 11:20
  are only doing front end today, a large portion of their front
• 11:26
  end work can be and should be kind of outsourced to the new
• 11:32
  citizen engineers with Vibe coding tools.
• 11:36
  And therefore it gives them the opportunity to shift more
• 11:40
  towards, you know, the back end and the the deeper part of the
• 11:45
  system. Or they could jump to the
• 11:48
  product side, which is, you know, I'm coming from a product
• 11:51
  management background. So I could say that it's much
• 11:54
  more fun to be on the product side.
• 11:55
  So they can't shift to that side.
• 11:58
  But I believe that front end engineers as we know them today,
• 12:05
  you know, are going to to change completely.
• 12:09
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• 12:12
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• 12:14
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  turn into miss revenue. Yeah, it's so fascinating.
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  And I mean, there's there's tools out there now that the
• 14:18
  front end is actually being run by AI based on user behavior.
• 14:24
  So they're actually modulating like user behavior without
• 14:27
  designers at all. But really the end users are
• 14:30
  designing and we'll move to a place where the same will be
• 14:33
  happening on the back end, which is to say that the software will
• 14:36
  grow and evolve with the customer as they move through
• 14:42
  move through iteration. So you know, I was reading up on
• 14:44
  you and you had an interesting quote.
• 14:47
  It said software runs the world, you know, and I'm wondering how
• 14:51
  you see that changing in AI as as we we head towards more of an
• 14:57
  autonomous produced software landscape.
• 15:05
  So look, I think that when in an era that everyone you know has
• 15:09
  an opinion, my point of view is that it would not be fully
• 15:14
  autonomous. Like I personally think that the
• 15:17
  human judgement still matters. I think that the risk with
• 15:21
  everything kind of generated with AI, even if the user kind
• 15:27
  of, you know, the users say what they want, we will see, you
• 15:33
  know, a lot of the same. I mean, we, we can all even
• 15:36
  today identify AI patterns and we could see how things become,
• 15:43
  you know, repetitive. So I, I still, I, I think that
• 15:48
  we would still need kind of the human judgement and involvement,
• 15:52
  but a lot of the things that are super slow today or suffer from
• 15:57
  friction will be a lot faster. So that's kind of my, my view.
• 16:03
  I think that software software will still run the world and and
• 16:08
  anyone that could, you know, build software properly at scale
• 16:14
  and and still, you know, keep the uniqueness of the software
• 16:18
  that you build. Because if, you know, if
• 16:20
  everything is the same, then then nothing is interesting.
• 16:25
  Yeah. So that's my take on that.
• 16:27
  It's interesting the the generative aspect, you know,
• 16:29
  it's like, I think about like Meta and how Zuckerberg made
• 16:32
  such a horrible mistake with the whole metaverse and like he went
• 16:36
  so hard on ERAR and people like, man, we don't want that.
• 16:40
  And he completely overlooked AI. So Sam was able to jump in
• 16:44
  there. But you know, Zuck has probably
• 16:46
  some of the best AI machine learning on planet Earth and
• 16:50
  it's been using it for 1520 years to for AD placements.
• 16:55
  You know, he didn't invent like the chat function, which was
• 16:58
  like really good. But it, it's very similar with
• 17:01
  Facebook because basically it's completing your sentences with
• 17:04
  the products it thinks you want, you know what I mean?
• 17:07
  So, so there's an it, it's really good at that.
• 17:10
  It, it knows what I want, you know, when I want it, it, it's
• 17:14
  fall. So I want a nice plush scarf
• 17:18
  with a nice Plaid and everybody knows it because that's all I
• 17:21
  see ads for. I don't know if I hit an ad for
• 17:24
  for a scarf, but now I get it. So, you know, if you follow the
• 17:27
  same trajectory, if it's if AI is just basically wants to keep
• 17:31
  us happy, it's going to create the software with the intention
• 17:35
  that we want rebuilt and individualized for each person
• 17:40
  similar to these like advertising algorithms.
• 17:43
  Now that's science fiction so far, but we're certainly getting
• 17:46
  there. And to, to go from a point here
• 17:49
  where we're largely AI assisted human curation to a place where
• 17:54
  it's going to be largely AI created human assisted on to the
• 17:59
  next stratosphere. Really, you're going to need a
• 18:02
  lot of tools like my OP that are basically building a bridge and
• 18:06
  kind of padding the walls, so to speak, so you don't run into it
• 18:09
  and bang your head on it. I think it's brilliant.
• 18:12
  So how did the, the, the inception of this idea come
• 18:17
  about? And and how did you decide to
• 18:19
  act on building this company? So I think like in, in many
• 18:28
  cases, actually, it came from from a personal pain.
• 18:33
  And also I think a bit of a luck to find my my Co founders, which
• 18:39
  is always, I think critical when founding a new a new company.
• 18:43
  But you know, I've, I've spent the past 15 years working in the
• 18:48
  tech industry. I started as a product manager,
• 18:53
  you know, I became a leader in the product, product manager, I
• 18:55
  was AVP of product at in a large Unicorn, I was general manager,
• 19:01
  etcetera, etcetera. But in reality, regardless the
• 19:06
  title that I had, I always had the same job and that was to beg
• 19:12
  for developers to help me can accelerate the idea that I want
• 19:18
  to bring to the to the market. So I call it, I was always a
• 19:21
  professional beggar. So there was something about no
• 19:24
  matter how senior you are or how good your idea is as a non
• 19:32
  developer, you, you are always dependent on someone else to
• 19:36
  execute on that. And, and I think that AI kind of
• 19:39
  aims to change that dynamic. Now, again, I'm not, I'm not,
• 19:45
  you know, part of the the the teams that think that it's going
• 19:48
  to replace everything and I'm going to open a Jira and
• 19:51
  tomorrow is going to be in the hand of the customers.
• 19:53
  I do believe that it's more complex than that, at least in
• 19:57
  the next, you know, three to five, maybe 10 years.
• 20:01
  So we will still see some processes of, you know, AI and
• 20:05
  humans working together. But for sure that the thing that
• 20:10
  kind of drove me into my up was the understanding that.
• 20:14
  You know, people would no longer have to beg to bring their ideas
• 20:19
  to life. So it will be a question and a
• 20:21
  discussion of real data of real insights and not, you know, if
• 20:27
  you could argue you're in the meeting room better than others,
• 20:32
  which which sometimes this is how decisions are made today.
• 20:36
  So if AI is a real agency and, and I believe that, you know, AI
• 20:41
  is really an extension of our power, it's not like I will be
• 20:44
  able to do something that I've never done before, but I could
• 20:48
  do more than what I do today as long as I can validate the
• 20:52
  output. OK.
• 20:54
  And that's exactly what we are aiming to solve with with my,
• 20:58
  we're kind of looking to give anyone on the team an extension
• 21:02
  of their power and kind of give them, you know, slightly more
• 21:09
  leverage to do what they believe they can and want to do to build
• 21:14
  better products, to bring more revenues, you know, to improve
• 21:17
  the overall product experiences. So that was kind of the idea
• 21:20
  behind it. And I mentioned there was also a
• 21:23
  little bit of luck behind it because I was lucky to meet my 2
• 21:26
  Co founders. Both of them are engineers that
• 21:32
  has the same, that have the same mindset.
• 21:35
  So they don't look to kind of preserve the reality as it is
• 21:39
  today, but rather kind of simplify it and give the people
• 21:43
  that owns the domain that own the domain to, you know, lead it
• 21:48
  all the way through production. So you were basically like, hey,
• 21:53
  just get out of my way, I can do it and I'm not going to break
• 21:56
  anything. It's fine.
• 22:00
  Yeah, I was like to get out of my way, but we'll find a way to
• 22:04
  make sure we can do it without breaking anything.
• 22:08
  And once you can do that, then that you are in, you know you're
• 22:11
  in the best place you could be. Incredible.
• 22:13
  Yeah. Because it really democratizes
• 22:15
  talent, right? I mean, it's not everybody can
• 22:18
  have all the ideas and be able to execute all the ideas.
• 22:21
  In fact, some of the best ideas are from true visionaries that,
• 22:25
  you know, they can see the end result.
• 22:27
  But like getting from here to there, you need almost like a,
• 22:31
  you need like a tractor beam through space and time that you
• 22:33
  can pull yourself into that reality.
• 22:35
  So you need the tools. You know, this is bringing so
• 22:38
  much more creative spirit because now you're basically
• 22:42
  tapping into the creative potential of every single human
• 22:45
  on planet Earth. Yes, and I think that one of the
• 22:49
  things that that actually kills the creative spirit today is the
• 22:54
  non processes. So sometimes, like if you know
• 22:56
  that it's not going to to happen, then you know, you won't
• 23:01
  even bother thinking about it or letting your mind, you know, go
• 23:05
  wide with what you could do. And This is why I think, you
• 23:09
  know, a lot of businesses, I mean product companies today,
• 23:12
  they actually lose some of their creativity.
• 23:15
  And that's some of the things that AI can change.
• 23:18
  So I think before it, AI does everything for us, right?
• 23:23
  And everything is kind of fully autonomous, as we discussed
• 23:26
  before. I think before that we're going
• 23:27
  to see and a lot of kind of, you know, process changes, workflow
• 23:34
  changes, roles, extensions and kind of the lines will be
• 23:40
  moving, shifting kind of between developers, product managers,
• 23:44
  designers, maybe growth managers and that will be very
• 23:47
  interesting I think. Yeah, it benefits.
• 23:50
  Everybody or chaotic? Yeah.
• 23:54
  Maybe a little bit of both, you know, very interesting.
• 23:56
  OK, so you grab your two Co founders, you're like let's go
• 23:59
  start my up. It looks like you raised about
• 24:01
  2,000,000. Is that accurate?
• 24:04
  Yes, yes, that's true. Where did you find your Invest
• 24:07
  Investor syndicate? So one of my Co founders, he is
• 24:16
  a serial entrepreneur and the fund that invested in US Ready
• 24:20
  and Capital also invested at his other firm.
• 24:26
  So actually that came, I would say easier than I expected
• 24:33
  because they already knew him and his kind of very
• 24:37
  technological brainpower. Yeah.
• 24:41
  And then we kind of started, you know, working on the MVP.
• 24:46
  We released it a couple of months later with the first
• 24:49
  design partner and growing from there.
• 24:53
  The the thing with my OP is that we rely heavily on the output of
• 25:00
  other vibe coding tools. And you know, it could be the
• 25:04
  models that flawed in Gemini, which they work amazing when it
• 25:09
  comes to front end UIS and front end logics.
• 25:14
  It's it's absolutely amazing what you could do with these
• 25:16
  tools, but also, of course, you know, the the agents that are
• 25:20
  built on top the lovable bolt of the vault figment to code, you
• 25:24
  know, think that would my up you could take the output from
• 25:27
  figment to code the HTMLCSS and you know, push it directly to
• 25:32
  users with one click. So we don't actually have to
• 25:35
  integrate that. So the more these tools get
• 25:38
  better, the more the models get better, the more value we could
• 25:42
  bring. So that's also something that is
• 25:45
  ramping up, you know, towards the year.
• 25:48
  We saw an amazing improvement in the past couple of months.
• 25:52
  Yeah. Well, and again, like it's the
• 25:54
  personalization, for whatever reason, certain tools will speak
• 25:58
  to you. You know, everybody's using
• 25:59
  cursor, everyone, you know, Claude code, ubiquitous, a lot
• 26:02
  of people using that. But then I find myself like, I
• 26:04
  started with Reblet and I was like, after a while I was like,
• 26:07
  I like lovable better. So you're always moving tools.
• 26:10
  So to be able to kind of plug in different applications is huge.
• 26:15
  I think that that's a great. Feat because.
• 26:16
  Everyone brings their own. Stack exactly.
• 26:21
  And also there is a difference between them.
• 26:23
  You know, lovable is more, you know they've done great prompt
• 26:28
  engineering work and kind of visual edit work on top of the
• 26:32
  LMS cursors. They run the cursor of the role
• 26:36
  they run on like on top of your IDE.
• 26:40
  So you kind of have to to have a code base and run on top of it.
• 26:44
  So we see that non developers, they can use cursor, but it's
• 26:50
  much more kind of natural for them to work with the with the
• 26:56
  external tools right here with clean to chat with Claude or to
• 27:00
  build with lovable and and stuff like that.
• 27:04
  And I, I think I read about you that you guys are based in Tel
• 27:07
  Aviv. Is that correct?
• 27:10
  Yes, are. You there now?
• 27:13
  Yes, I am in Tel Aviv. I feel so rude, it's so late.
• 27:19
  It is late, but it's fine. It's better now because all of
• 27:22
  my kids are asleep so they won't jump in, you know?
• 27:26
  Well, thank you, I. That's the thing when you work,
• 27:28
  when you work hybrid, you know, it's like it it has to happen
• 27:32
  once a day, one, you know, a kid jumping inside your Zoom.
• 27:36
  Well, thanks for standing up. But yeah, I'm basing with us,
• 27:39
  OK. How old are your kiddos?
• 27:44
  So I have 3/12/10 and. 4 Amazing.
• 27:49
  That's a great spread. My, my kids are teenagers now,
• 27:52
  so I I miss the four year olds, you know?
• 27:56
  You you cross the bridge, you know you're you're on the other
• 27:59
  side like they. It does happen.
• 28:02
  I it was the this year that my my daughter went to college.
• 28:05
  I miss her dearly. And my son now drives himself to
• 28:09
  school. It's like the amount of I don't
• 28:10
  have to take football practice. I don't got to, you know, take
• 28:13
  him to school. It it's the amount of time I
• 28:16
  have for. Yoga.
• 28:17
  The amount of time? Yes.
• 28:20
  Yes. Nice.
• 28:22
  OK. So yes, MVP, you got the product
• 28:25
  together, you got the financing together.
• 28:26
  How did you find your first customer?
• 28:31
  So actually a lot of kind of personal relationship and
• 28:37
  networking like because all of us, all of the three Co founders
• 28:41
  worked previously at other quite large companies.
• 28:45
  Like I've spent six years at Gatt, which is an Uber rival in
• 28:49
  a ride heading firm. My Co founder came from
• 28:53
  wixwix.com. So we were kind of reaching out
• 28:57
  to to people talking to we started actually by pitching to
• 29:04
  CT OS and VP engineering. Because you know, at the end of
• 29:07
  the day, Myop is a pluggable solution for front end and you
• 29:13
  have to have the the buy in from the CTO.
• 29:16
  But then you realize that you know, the real power and the
• 29:21
  pain that we're solving is actually for again the non
• 29:23
  developers that now gets more that now get kind of more power.
• 29:30
  So, so now most of our work is actually with product managers
• 29:35
  and designers as champions inside the organization.
• 29:39
  And then, and then we kind of close the loop with the R&D as
• 29:43
  well. And yes, we were lucky to have,
• 29:47
  you know, design partners to kind of, you know, kind of jump
• 29:52
  over the river with us and, and try and, and try new things and,
• 29:57
  you know, let people inside the organization to build with AI.
• 30:02
  And I think the more they got excited like, like our customers
• 30:06
  today, they, they reached to a point that, you know, a large
• 30:11
  portion of their UX and product team, maybe soon.
• 30:16
  Also the growth team are vibe coding, vibe coding components,
• 30:23
  like complete features inside their app.
• 30:26
  And the engineering teams kind of spend most of their time on
• 30:30
  the, you know, the core, the unique logics, the
• 30:32
  functionalities, you know, a lot of optimizations that they are
• 30:37
  doing on the system. Of course, they are also using
• 30:41
  AI assistant tool, but that's completely kind of, you know,
• 30:44
  different areas of the product. And I, and I find that to be
• 30:48
  amazing because, you know, we only exist for a couple of
• 30:51
  months. And if people were, you know,
• 30:53
  capable of trying and and scaling with the concept, then I
• 30:59
  think we have something very interesting here, even though
• 31:02
  it's not obvious at all. I mean, we're talking about the
• 31:07
  change management inside organizations, right?
• 31:10
  We're talking about letting non developers to write and ship
• 31:14
  code to end users, right? That's crazy when you think
• 31:19
  about it. But you know, some companies you
• 31:23
  know are the only adapters and they have the open mind to do
• 31:26
  so. Is is that how you're pitching
• 31:28
  it? So actually, no, I'm pitching it
• 31:34
  mostly with examples. So I'm giving examples.
• 31:38
  They look, they look amazing. And then I say, you know, that
• 31:41
  was built by a non developer with Gemini, that was built by a
• 31:44
  non developer with Claude. It's live in production.
• 31:47
  You could see it here, you can see it there.
• 31:50
  And so so we're kind of trying with that angle.
• 31:52
  One more thing that we're doing is that we're running a lot of
• 31:57
  kind of hands on workshops. So we've learned that some of
• 32:01
  the issues obviously that we have now with AI is that people
• 32:06
  they don't know what they don't know and there is a lot of noise
• 32:09
  around. And we said, OK, we need to kind
• 32:13
  of teach people and, and I'm referring to the non developers
• 32:16
  how they can vibe code, not a side project, you know, not a,
• 32:21
  an app that manages, you know, carpooling for my kids.
• 32:25
  I'm, I'm talking about how can they vibe code a real component,
• 32:30
  a real front end piece that can later be easily plugged into a
• 32:34
  running system. And so we are doing that.
• 32:38
  And now I'm mostly in Tel Aviv, but soon also abroad and, and
• 32:41
  online. And that is working great.
• 32:44
  People do seek for for knowledge and and like practical knowledge
• 32:49
  and practical expertise. And so that's another kind of go
• 32:55
  to market approach that we are that we are pushing now.
• 32:58
  Amazing. So cool.
• 32:59
  And how big is a team? So we are All in all 10
• 33:07
  including, you know, yeah. And then how about pricing?
• 33:12
  I didn't see pricing on the website.
• 33:13
  How are you managing pricing? Yeah, yeah.
• 33:18
  So the pricing will be sued on the website.
• 33:22
  So. So MOP has basically two parts.
• 33:26
  We have our library, it's more of a meta framework, an SDK that
• 33:34
  has to be installed inside the host application in order to
• 33:38
  enable that communication between the inner logic and the
• 33:42
  external AI code. And that part is completely open
• 33:45
  source and open code, you know as as commonly kind of used in
• 33:53
  this type of product. And then we have the management
• 33:56
  system. The system is where you come as
• 34:00
  a non developer, you paste your code from Claude or you use our
• 34:05
  agent. We also have our agent inside
• 34:07
  Myop and then you can test it, you can plug it and then you can
• 34:14
  decide, you know how to QA it. You, you first you ship it to QA
• 34:19
  segment and then maybe to a better segment and pre
• 34:21
  production etcetera, etcetera. No one really pushes you know
• 34:25
  code to production with one click.
• 34:27
  We have to kind of test it and verify it and so on.
• 34:31
  So all of that happens from the MOP system including AB testing
• 34:35
  and segmentations and gradual rollouts and history management
• 34:38
  etcetera. So it becomes the hub of your
• 34:40
  extended AI code and how it gets to production.
• 34:44
  And we can and and you can also at any given moment sync it to
• 34:49
  your git. So if you want to have, you
• 34:51
  know, single soft soft truth for your entire code and for that we
• 34:55
  charge a subscription fee which is based on usage.
• 34:59
  So if you have one component, meaning 1, you know, code piece,
• 35:05
  it will have a certain fee and then the more you scale up.
• 35:09
  So very similar to, you know, analytics kind of BA systems
• 35:14
  that charge per events and per usage.
• 35:18
  It was very important for us to kind of align the value with the
• 35:22
  price because you know, every time you plug AI code, you save
• 35:26
  a significant amount of development time, you see the
• 35:29
  value. So we would be more kind of
• 35:32
  willing to pay. We're still at the point that we
• 35:35
  are maximizing usage and retention over revenues to be
• 35:40
  honest. But but yeah, but of course
• 35:45
  revenue is is also critical and something that we put a lot of
• 35:49
  focus on 100. Percent and you know it it that
• 35:52
  seems to be a much more very common with AI tools now is kind
• 35:55
  of like outcome based pricing. You're paying for usage as
• 35:58
  opposed to like seats, you know, SAS, it was all about seats, you
• 36:03
  know, but now we're getting to outcome based pricing.
• 36:07
  Yes, exactly because, because partially what we're trying to
• 36:12
  do with AI is to save seats, right or to increase capacity of
• 36:16
  the current seats. So yeah, it less makes sense.
• 36:21
  And and of course, I mean, we have to remember like when it
• 36:24
  comes to our agent or any agent that you use, obviously you have
• 36:31
  to kind of pay for tokens etcetera, because because we are
• 36:34
  all paying back to the model. So if if anyone wants to make
• 36:39
  money on top of that, then you kind of have to to build your
• 36:42
  pricing on top of whatever you are paying to and Tropic or Open
• 36:46
  AI, etcetera. So, so that by the way, it's
• 36:50
  also varied. It's going to be very
• 36:52
  interesting because there's so many companies out there,
• 36:56
  including most of the companies we mentioned here right from
• 37:00
  cursor to lovable that rely on the LMS by and traffic and open
• 37:08
  AI that eventually the, I believe that the pricing will be
• 37:14
  controlled by them, right? I mean, if they increase,
• 37:18
  increase the pricing, then all of the agents that are built on
• 37:21
  top will follow. Very cool.
• 37:24
  I've been very fortunate to work with absolutely amazing women
• 37:29
  founders. And so I'd like to ask when I
• 37:32
  meet women founders what their experience has been like.
• 37:36
  You know, there's been a lot made of of like tech Bros and
• 37:40
  things like that. For you, being a woman in tech,
• 37:44
  how have you found it to be a superpower?
• 37:46
  Or maybe what are some of the challenges?
• 37:52
  So it's both. I mean, I do think there is much
• 37:54
  more awareness to the to the issue.
• 37:59
  So, so in, in some cases, I do find it to be, you know, a
• 38:06
  super, I mean, a superpower in terms of kind of I am getting a
• 38:10
  seat at the table and I am getting the opportunity of, of
• 38:17
  kind of being on stage and, and talk about my startup.
• 38:20
  I think, you know, partially because what we're doing is
• 38:23
  super important, but also partially because I'm a female
• 38:26
  founder. And that's fine.
• 38:27
  You know, as a founder, as an entrepreneur in general, you
• 38:30
  would do whatever you need to do to get to get the attention and
• 38:35
  to get the awareness. So, you know, I think I do see
• 38:39
  it as a benefit on the other end to to every room that I will,
• 38:44
  you know, join, attend every event.
• 38:49
  There will always, always, always be just a few female
• 38:53
  founders and the majority would be still met.
• 38:57
  I mean, no matter where I go, no matter what, you know, what I'll
• 39:01
  do. And.
• 39:01
  And that's crazy. Yeah.
• 39:06
  Yeah, it is crazy. I mean, it's 2025, right?
• 39:11
  Yeah. One of the things I, I care a
• 39:14
  lot about, you know, gender equality and, and I volunteer at
• 39:18
  an organization called Women in Tech, the Israeli chapter for
• 39:21
  the past five years. So we do a lot of, you know, of
• 39:25
  work in kind of pushing women up the ladder.
• 39:27
  You know, on the, on the kind of entry level, we do see equal
• 39:31
  numbers. But the more you kind of go up
• 39:33
  the ladder, you see less and less.
• 39:35
  And when it comes to to founders, especially founders
• 39:39
  and CEOs actually, and I actually think that AI is, is a
• 39:45
  very critical point when it comes to, to gender equality.
• 39:51
  Because because I think it will either become an opportunity for
• 39:55
  women to shine and start, you know, becoming, we will see more
• 39:59
  and more kind of AI ambassadors, female AI ambassadors in
• 40:03
  organization, kind of, you know, taking the lead and, and, and
• 40:07
  taking the stage or it will kind of deepen the gap.
• 40:11
  Because because it's a race now, you know, everyone has to kind
• 40:14
  of to learn new skills, new capabilities.
• 40:19
  So we actually do a lot of work with women in tech trying to
• 40:23
  kind of push women like civil engineers, product managers,
• 40:28
  designers to see that as an opportunity to push themselves
• 40:32
  up the ladder. Because because if you become an
• 40:35
  AI champion in the organization, you know, it doesn't really
• 40:39
  matter if you come with five years of experience in product
• 40:42
  manager management to 10. But if you become, you know, the
• 40:45
  AI expert, that's a whole new game and that's a whole new
• 40:49
  opportunity and, and doors that would open up.
• 40:52
  So I really believe it could be, it could be a great opportunity
• 40:55
  if we capture it as you know, as all the women in the world.
• 41:01
  Hey founders, let me ask you this.
• 41:03
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  defining together. Yeah, well, and all the women I
• 43:23
  know in tech are, are very welcoming to, to recruit more
• 43:27
  women in tech. But also honestly so are the
• 43:30
  men. The men want more women too.
• 43:33
  To to that point, here in Denver, I'm in Denver, Co and we
• 43:37
  have, I think the world's first vibe code Co working space.
• 43:42
  It's called ID 345. And we meet every two weeks and
• 43:47
  we demo products and we talk about what we're using and what
• 43:50
  cool products we, we've seen that week.
• 43:53
  And then we do generative fun video stuff too.
• 43:56
  But it's a really cool group that's grown.
• 43:57
  We started probably in March. And you know, now that we have
• 44:01
  this big warehouse, it's awesome.
• 44:02
  And you know, there's probably 60-70 people there, I would say
• 44:07
  on any given week. And we called last week.
• 44:11
  I was talking to Danny. He, he put the whole thing
• 44:13
  together and he's like, man, we got to get more women here.
• 44:16
  And I was like, oh, wait a minute.
• 44:17
  And I looked and there was one out of seven.
• 44:22
  And it was like, yeah, we really do.
• 44:24
  But it brings up this this question, you know, is there
• 44:27
  something pushing women out of tech?
• 44:30
  Or is it just that most women would prefer to do something
• 44:32
  else? What do you think?
• 44:38
  And OK, that's that's a good question.
• 44:40
  I think I think it's, it's, it's neither of that of the options.
• 44:46
  I think, I think that in most of of the cases, in most of the
• 44:51
  families, women are expected to be more present at home and to
• 45:00
  take more responsibility, especially when you have a
• 45:02
  family. And so, so they kind of, we kind
• 45:07
  of carry on our shoulders a lot of things except for work,
• 45:11
  except for self, you know, development and self
• 45:14
  improvement. And, and I think AI requires
• 45:19
  kind of a, and extra time, extra attention.
• 45:24
  And, and I think, and, and I'm afraid that a lot of the women
• 45:29
  will, will feel that they don't have the time to give.
• 45:33
  And this is, and This is why we'll keep on.
• 45:36
  Oh. Oh shoot, what happened?
• 46:06
  It keeps. It keeps throwing you out.
• 46:08
  Oh yeah, it was frozen. I was like, Oh no, let me see.
• 46:12
  We got it recording. I think it we should have the
• 46:15
  other. OK, we'll just, we'll pick it
• 46:18
  up. Here.
• 46:18
  Yeah, I was. I was still.
• 46:19
  Yeah, I was. I was here all the time.
• 46:22
  Oh, weird. OK.
• 46:24
  So you're just about to to answer that question before it
• 46:28
  cut out. Oh, it cut out again.
• 46:31
  Yeah, but this time just for a second.
• 46:34
  OK, let me see. Let me see if there's anything
• 46:36
  on my side. It looks like everything is good
• 46:37
  on my end. I'll just cut this out.
• 46:56
  One more thing. There we go.
• 46:59
  OK, cool. We'll start again.
• 47:02
  OK, so the question that I I talked about before, right
• 47:05
  before it cut out was I asked if there's something preventing
• 47:10
  women from entering tag, some kind of ominous force or if
• 47:14
  women just prefer to do something else.
• 47:17
  And you actually said it's neither of those.
• 47:21
  Yes, yes. So, so I personally believe that
• 47:27
  it's the, it's the, it's the expectations, it's the external
• 47:31
  expectations that we're still, you know, as a society.
• 47:36
  And I know it sounds quite deep, but, but it is, you know, a very
• 47:41
  critical topic. I think that extended
• 47:44
  expectations are still that women would be more present and
• 47:48
  at home and that they will take, you know, the responsibility on
• 47:52
  managing the house. So that except for having my
• 47:57
  job, I also have other commitments and
• 48:01
  responsibilities. And that just don't leave me
• 48:04
  enough time to, you know, learn what I need to learn about AI.
• 48:10
  Because I think the race now about around AI is that you have
• 48:15
  to kind of, you know, find some time to teach yourself.
• 48:20
  You have to listen, you have to learn.
• 48:22
  You have to learn this new language you have you have to
• 48:25
  understand how it's helpful for you.
• 48:29
  And, and yeah, and my and and actually I'm, I'm concerned
• 48:32
  about it because I think that we will see more men kind of, you
• 48:36
  know, joining the race and and becoming better at that and, and
• 48:41
  and capturing on the opportunity and, and and we would see women
• 48:44
  kind of stand behind. And This is why we actually need
• 48:47
  to actively push them. So I very much agree that you
• 48:51
  guys need to find more women for your Vibe Coding Co working
• 48:55
  space, and I'm happy to help with that, although I'm not from
• 48:59
  Denver. That's a very, very cool idea,
• 49:01
  by the way. Oh, it's so cool.
• 49:03
  You would love it. It's really neat.
• 49:05
  You know, you demo tools for sure.
• 49:07
  And people will tear it down and give ideas and like talking
• 49:10
  about prompt engineering and hey, how I got to do this and
• 49:13
  how I'm incorporating these tools, you know, particularly on
• 49:16
  on kind of generative creative stuff.
• 49:18
  Some of the guys are making unbelievable short films right
• 49:21
  now, you know, like cutting edge stuff that I don't know how many
• 49:25
  other people are kind of getting the the same results because you
• 49:28
  know, right now if you're making videos or animations or things
• 49:31
  like that, it's hard to have consistency from shot to shot.
• 49:35
  It's real challenge and there's some guys that are doing at a
• 49:37
  very, very high level. So it's really cool.
• 49:40
  You have an open invitation, invitation to come speak anytime
• 49:43
  you want to get a bunch of Vibe coders together, Come on down to
• 49:46
  Denver. Amazing, amazing, amazing.
• 49:50
  To be honest, I really tried to to do videos, you know, at
• 49:55
  least, you know, for our company.
• 49:57
  I mean, you know, as a founder these days, you kind of try to
• 50:00
  leverage any AI till you can. And I was so terrible at that.
• 50:04
  If someone can teach me how to do short videos that will look
• 50:08
  professional, I would be extremely happy.
• 50:11
  These are the people to do it. My videos are horrible, I cannot
• 50:14
  help you. Yes, yes.
• 50:19
  Yeah, it's like I want someone to explode with butterflies and
• 50:23
  have them reorganize into a giraffe and, you know, just
• 50:27
  like, just the war stuff. Sounds cool actually.
• 50:33
  OK, Are you ready for the lightning round here?
• 50:37
  Yes, yes. OK, I have a daughter who's a
• 50:42
  freshman in college like I mentioned.
• 50:44
  What would you encourage her to study in university?
• 50:51
  OK, that's a good question. I would probably go with
• 50:56
  computer science and I will explain why.
• 50:59
  Still, although anyone could build without writing code, I
• 51:05
  think I mentioned that before. I believe personally that AI
• 51:08
  helps us move faster, it gives us agency, it's an extension of
• 51:13
  our power. But if you cannot validate the
• 51:17
  AI output and you have to kind of take whatever the AI gives
• 51:23
  you for granted, I think that's a problem.
• 51:26
  So even though I don't, I don't want, I never wanted and I don't
• 51:31
  want today to write code, you know, on a daily basis.
• 51:37
  I think that understanding kind of now I do because I have to
• 51:41
  for my own, but I think that generally understanding the
• 51:45
  fundamentals behind engineering and computer science and you
• 51:50
  know, speak the language and the terms, that's a massive, massive
• 51:54
  benefit, especially if you want to build with AI.
• 52:00
  So that would be that. Is there an entrepreneur or CEO
• 52:05
  that you follow closely or admire?
• 52:12
  Yes, so we talked about female entrepreneurs.
• 52:15
  So one of my favorite is Whitney Wolf from from Bumble.
• 52:23
  I think, I think even before I became a founder, when I was
• 52:28
  just, you know, at the beginning of my career, I think her story
• 52:31
  is an inspiration and her achievements.
• 52:35
  And so definitely I, I follow her and love a lot of things
• 52:44
  about her. I also really like Avid Hoffman.
• 52:49
  I used to be a jockey of his pod fest and master of scale.
• 52:54
  But generally speaking, I also very much agree with his kind of
• 52:57
  building products approach. You know, you have to be
• 53:00
  embarrassed by your first product and if you're not, you
• 53:03
  release it too late. I think it's the most important
• 53:07
  thing to do to reduce a product that you're embarrassed by.
• 53:11
  But it is so true because kind of you don't know what you don't
• 53:16
  know until you meet your customers and and you know, it's
• 53:21
  it's really counter intuitive. You kind of feel that you know
• 53:24
  your product the best, you know the market the best you it's
• 53:27
  your day, it's your night. You dream about it and then you
• 53:31
  take it to customer and then you describe that and out of the
• 53:34
  things that you were so sure about was was complete, like
• 53:39
  they were completely wrong, right, And and that's crazy.
• 53:41
  It happens to us still well and that's that's the best.
• 53:45
  Part, but also the most challenging part.
• 53:47
  You just want to bury your head in the sand and build something
• 53:50
  beautiful that you love and then you bring it to the world and
• 53:52
  they hate it. But it's like, that's OK.
• 53:55
  That's that's the, you know, there's a fine line for me.
• 53:58
  I guess I'll speak personally of like, I want first draft, best
• 54:01
  draft. I want the first thing I put out
• 54:03
  there to be as close to perfect as possible.
• 54:05
  However, it should also be on the edge where I could still
• 54:09
  kill it at any time for any reason.
• 54:11
  And having design partners are are just the best for that.
• 54:14
  If you have people you trust or you know, that you really can
• 54:17
  get a lot of good feedback. And that, that kind of leads me
• 54:20
  to my next question too. You know, sitting where you are
• 54:23
  now, you guys launched in 2024. What's something you know now
• 54:26
  that you wish you knew right when you started, When you, when
• 54:29
  you launched? Wow.
• 54:41
  OK, so first of all, we did not know a lot about did like a lot
• 54:48
  about what's going on with AI. Obviously.
• 54:50
  I mean, I mentioned before how these tools are kind of getting
• 54:54
  better and evolved, which is something that kind of shifted
• 54:57
  us completely. I mean we started by actually
• 55:01
  early, early, early on. We started by kind of connecting
• 55:05
  builders output. I'm referring to kind of web
• 55:08
  flow WordPress type. We said, OK, you know, they were
• 55:13
  the they can the pre AI vibe coding of the world.
• 55:18
  You could go as a non developer and build interfaces and logics
• 55:22
  and animations. And so we started by that and we
• 55:25
  spend a lot of time on adjusting our technology to that
• 55:29
  technology, which operates completely different.
• 55:32
  So that's a more kind of tactical thing.
• 55:36
  I think that I did not know how much our products will will
• 55:44
  become something that is that this is at the core of of the
• 55:50
  kind of change management in organization working for large
• 55:54
  companies. Like I spent a couple of years
• 55:58
  at AT&T get one active companies of, you know, thousands of
• 56:02
  employees. If there was one thing that I
• 56:05
  didn't want to do is to find myself involved in the politics
• 56:09
  of the different roles and responsibilities and you know, R
• 56:12
  and Rs and who takes what. And I was like, no, I don't want
• 56:16
  to sell product. That kind of challenge that, you
• 56:19
  know, given my experience and and the amount of kind of argues
• 56:23
  I had with my kind of CTO and looking to push things etcetera.
• 56:29
  And we ended up, you know, right in the middle of that with
• 56:33
  everything we discussed, you know, with giving more power to
• 56:37
  other people, change management, etcetera.
• 56:41
  So I think that if I know it's going to be so powerful, I would
• 56:46
  probably do a lot of a lot of things differently from the one
• 56:51
  that we are now kind of trying to to to kind of figure out.
• 56:57
  I love it Karen. This has been fantastic.
• 56:59
  It is myop dot dev where you have to check out this product I
• 57:04
  want to give a shout out to. Women has to.
• 57:06
  Women in Tech Israel, which is women-in-tech.org and please put
• 57:13
  that in the show notes. You can click and check them
• 57:15
  out. Their their mission is to help
• 57:17
  Israeli women in tech break the glass ceiling by expanding their
• 57:20
  professional networks, learning from experiences of successful
• 57:24
  women, and overcoming barriers such as language challenge
• 57:27
  challenges and imposter syndromes.
• 57:29
  Shout out to them, Karen. If people want to connect with
• 57:32
  you online, what's the best place to do it?
• 57:36
  LinkedIn probably. Fantastic.
• 57:39
  We will link that also in the show notes and I really
• 57:41
  appreciate you coming on the show.
• 57:44
  Thank you for having me. It was, it was a real fun.
• 57:48
  Thank you. And thank you for spotlighting
• 57:51
  women. That's so important.
• 57:54
  Thank you for that. My pleasure.