Latest / Be A Global Citizen! / 206. GC Talks with David Jackson: Igniting the Spark of Learning Within Each Student

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206. GC Talks with David Jackson: Igniting the Spark of Learning Within Each Student · Be A Global Citizen!

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Hi there, and welcome to Be a Global Citizen, the podcast that
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explores the concept of global citizenship through the lens of
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value creating education. My name is Scott Bauer and I'm
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Ahsoka, researcher and educator. I hope you find the discussion,
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stories and insights on this podcast to be valuable and
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inspiring as we strive to become global citizens who are
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committed to living a contributive life.
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Enjoy. Hi everyone, my name is David
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Jackson. I am the founding head of school
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at South Bay Classical Academy and here in the South Bay of Los
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Angeles. Just moved to Hawthorne, CA in
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June and I'm so excited to be here on the podcast with you
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Scott and to chat about being a global citizen.
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Wonderful thank you so much Dave for being on the podcast with
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me. I'm also very excited to have
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you I'm also very excited that you're in the South Bay because
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I think it's it's a wonderful place and I also know that you
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know we were connected to your lovely wife who also was on the
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podcast. Shout out to Generosa and I I
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find that you know, every conversation that we have
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together in the various different meetups that we've had
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have been really intellectually stimulating and just very
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joyful. And I want to learn more about
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just what what led to you becoming the kind of person that
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you are and also the various interests that you have in
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education and beyond. What brings you to the South
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Bay, specifically the school? But how does, how does one go
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about even founding a school? I'm sure that takes so much hard
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work. And, and it's, it's very much a
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passion project because of the, the kind of education that
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you're bringing to the South Bay.
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So, yeah, I, I want to hear about all of that and more.
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But, you know, I wanted to pass this over to you and have you
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share out a little bit about the, the milestones of your
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journey as an educator. What brought you to the work and
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perhaps any big influences that that have like in terms of like
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mentor figures as well? I'll, I'll just leave it up to
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you to kind of share what what comes naturally and then we'll
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kind of take it from there. Yeah, I know.
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That's great, Scott. I'll come back to the what it's
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like to found a school towards the end, but you know, just to
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think about, you know, my beginning as a, as an educator,
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I'll go all the way back to high school, kind of high school
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graduation. I was having a conversation with
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some friends. We were doing like a graduation
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party and it was actually a surprise part of my parents to
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put together this like, gathering of like all my
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friends. And I had this very disparate
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group of friends in high school. And so we're like all chatting
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at the at the party, like, oh, what are we going to do?
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Like, what's life going to be like after high school?
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And I was like, you know, I was so set.
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I was going to law school, and I thought that going to law school
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would be the way that I made a difference in the world.
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I didn't know what that was going to be, but yeah, I'm going
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to go to law school. And, you know, that's going to
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help me help people. But then I, I was talking to my
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friends and I said, you know what I would love to do?
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I'd love to like retire after a long time and just teach Latin,
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right? That would be really fun, you
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know? And so go off to college and I
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end up volunteering at a school working with some Latin
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students, some middle school students.
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I'd called my Latin teacher. I had an amazing Latin teacher,
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Nancy Allen, Sandalwood High School, Jacksonville, FL and you
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know, she was just so good. She built this amazing program.
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We went to all these like various competitions and things
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and it was just like a great community of learning and I
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wanted to kind of give that back to some kids and so volunteered
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working with middle school kids and really loved that, took them
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to competitions. They did really well.
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And when I was at the point of thinking about law school and
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sort of post undergrad life, what does that look like?
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I was spending all my time like writing questions for the kids.
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And it just kind of hit me one day that I want to be a teacher.
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And I didn't know anything about how to do that.
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You know, I just, you know, I had my my undergraduate degree.
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I was wrapping up. And so I went and talked to the
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teacher with whom I had been volunteering for the past four
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years. Her name was Janice Matterang.
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And this was at Oak Hall School in Gainesville, FL.
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And I said, I want to be a teacher.
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And she's like, you know, David, I'm actually getting married,
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and I'm leaving. This position is opening up.
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You should apply for it. And I was like, oh, my God.
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So I went in to see the headmaster, and I gave him this
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big presentation about how we're going to build the best Latin
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classics program in the country. His name was Rich Gaiman.
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And I'm sure he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, kid, I'll hire you.
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Fine, but taught Latin for 13 years.
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The program grew to a point where, you know, it got so big
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we had to bring on a second teacher.
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And that was Generosa, you know, my wife.
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And we were married then, and she was a graduate student
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studying for her PhD. And so that really worked well.
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And then people kept encouraging me to become an administrator,
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and I didn't know why. And they were like, you should
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do this. You sure?
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You're like, really good at talking to people and you're
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always, you know, giving good advice.
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And I was like, OK, maybe. And then I started to think more
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and more about it and just kind of made a leap of faith into it
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and ran the high school program at Oklahoma high School and
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middle school program at one point became an assistant head
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and then ultimately went off to Canterbury School in Fort Wayne,
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IN to become a head of school. Canterbury is a great school in
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the Midwest. 2 campuses, about 800 students pre-K through 12.
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Loved that. You know, there I got to do some
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fun things like, you know, strategic planning, fundraising,
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managing 2 separate campuses with all the dynamics that go
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into that with teachers and and students.
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And I got connected with a group of community leaders here in the
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South Bay that summer of 2024 who wanted to build a classical
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school and they wanted to build a private school because they
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thought that would be the best way to convey the curriculum and
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just, you know, thought the charter process would be very
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difficult. And I'd always dreamed of
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building a school and especially a classical school.
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Classics were was the thing that changed my life.
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It's it's the subject that allowed me to realize that I
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could learn anything. It it, it sparked my
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intellectual curiosity. And I say all the time,
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everything that's good in my life came from my education, in
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particular my classical education.
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So it's always been my dream to give that back to students.
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It's been my work as a school leader and as a teacher.
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And so, yeah, really excited to get the project underway here.
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We just got to the point where we're finalizing our lease.
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We're taking over the Trinity Lutheran School in Hawthorne,
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which was operated by the church until the end of 2024.
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We're going to go in and do some renovations and, you know, just
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get the the building ready to go for August.
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We're recruiting families. We have our first launch event
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on February 7th and we've got over 50 families signed up for
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it. So it's really exciting to be
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able to talk to families and, and kids and, you know, talk
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about the value of classical education, build a great school
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community that's a loving, caring school community that
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really puts kids first and partners with their parents.
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And, yeah, works to deliver a great classical education.
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And I can talk for for days and days and days about classical
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education, but that's really the core of my journey.
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You know, why I decided to become an educator.
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There is no day that goes by where I don't think about being
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in a classroom teaching students and inspiring them.
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So I'm, I'm so happy to be able to do that on, you know, more
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global level to, to hire a great staff and, you know, let them do
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great things with kids every day and be a part of that myself as
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well. So I'll teach Latin at the
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school and just really looking forward to to that and could not
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be more thrilled to be here in the South Bay.
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Wow, it's, it's just so evident from the way that you're sharing
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and, and your story, you have so much passion for teaching and
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what you're able to do to, to bring this, this form of
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education, right, classical education to the South Bay, How
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much it's really influenced you in such a positive way.
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I love that you said that classical education allowed you
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to learn anything. And, and I think that this, this
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idea of lifelong learning is often tossed about.
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People kind of speak to it, but I would say in practice, it
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doesn't necessarily show up. And people kind of, I don't
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know, there's this kind of dulling effect that
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unfortunately, in a lot of educational systems, maybe just
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speaking to the US has been starting at earlier and earlier
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stages. That doling effect can even
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dampen the enthusiasm of students to the point where they
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don't even really know why they're studying in the 1st
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place. And it is a huge problem.
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And there's so many problems. And I don't want to be a Debbie
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Downer about all of them, but maybe if we could kind of focus
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on that point of like, well, what is that spark of, of
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learning that is so fundamental to classical education?
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I would, I would like to hear from you.
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Could you briefly share with the listeners what is classical
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education in a nutshell? And again, how does that address
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that spark of learning and that, you know, genuine joy of
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learning? Yeah.
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So the spark, the word spark is a really interesting and I think
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important word to deploy within the conversation of classical
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education. So there is this idea that comes
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from a Renaissance. And even before the Renaissance,
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back to classical antiquity, there's a, there was a group of
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philosophers called the Neoplatonics.
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And so the, you know, Plato had come and gone and, you know,
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produced his works. And so now there is this new
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interpretation of Plato that happens, you know, sometime in
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the second and third centuries AD and, and the Neoplatonics
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believed that inside every human being there was a spark.
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And in the Renaissance, this gets extrapolated even further.
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And it's like God has planted in us this spark and every human
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being has this potential for it to be unleashed, right?
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So I'll start there. I'll also say, and this is a
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quote from the Greco Roman biographer Plutarch, who
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famously said education is not the filling of a pale but the
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lighting of a fire, right? I think all of us who have
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become educated, and that can mean different things, certainly
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to different people, but those of us who have had that spark of
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loving to learn things and being curious about the world, we can
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probably think back to a time that that spark was ignited in
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US. And, you know, at its heart, one
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of the things that classical education aims to do is to bring
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out that spark in the students. So there is a misconception
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about classical Ed that it's, you know, it's rigid and, and,
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you know, too rigorous and old school and stuffy.
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And that could not be further from the truth.
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Classical education is about finding joy.
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It's about finding wonder in the world, sparking curiosity.
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And so, you know, our main goal for the students as they, you
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know, walk through the halls of the school and they're in
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classrooms everyday is to be curious, to be wondrous, to
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explore, to have that passion ignited in them.
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We do it through the the vehicle of classical education, which in
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a modern sense means a couple of different things.
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I'll just give a little bit of detail about our school.
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So, you know, we're we're very traditional in the sense that we
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believe phonics is really the the best vehicle for teaching
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kids how to read. There are many different forms
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of that. So you think Orton Gillingham
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or, you know, we use version of phonics called Spalding, right?
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So, you know, they'll get all, you know, all the phonograms,
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right, right up front and, and, and build, you know, sort of
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core knowledge around their, their vocabulary and their
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reading comprehension. All the students will learn
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Latin, which for me personally is important, but it's not true
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of every classical school, right?
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There are some classical schools that don't offer Latin, but most
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of them do. We will teach a form of math
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called Singapore Math, which again, didn't exist in the time
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of the Greeks and the Romans. But it really helps the kids
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visually understand math, get at this deeper sense of math.
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So the Greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras, you
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might have heard of him. He's the guy behind the
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Pythagorean theorem, right? A ^2 + b ^2 = C ^2.
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We all learn that in school. But Pythagoras also said that
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the world exists in numbers and that we should see numbers and
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everything. And so one of the things that
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Singapore does is it creates spatial cues for kids and uses
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manipulative so that while we're giving in the formulas, they
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understand the visual representation of what the math
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means, right? That was not true for when I was
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going to school. And I would have loved that.
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And I think it would have helped me understand math math better.
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Classical education focuses on civics and, you know, not only
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the Constitution, but sort of the, you know, the underlying
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philosophy of of democracy and you know, what it means to live
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as a citizen and a Republic and you know, all those things.
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And it's about character formation and the moral
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imagination. So helping children and young
14:15
adults be good people, right? And, you know, be, be good
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citizens in the world. I know we're going to talk about
14:22
a global citizen and what that means.
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And, you know, what does it mean to be a good citizen?
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I think that's a very a very important function of a
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classical education. So those are just some things.
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I could go on forever talking about classical Ed though.
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That's so great and I, I really appreciate you sharing all of
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that and how you, you brought in a history lesson as well.
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I think that's it's so so apartment for, you know, a
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teacher like yourself and to to really kind of center it on this
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idea of what does it mean to to spark learning and, and how that
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really have it takes place on an individual level, right?
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It's, there's like this attention and care that you
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bring or the teachers and the staff bring to really
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understanding when that moment happens, right, Because you
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don't never know when, but it's to really kind of like cultivate
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that, right? And tend to see how it then
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expands, right? And, and then hopefully, you
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know, also getting out of the way or channeling that, that
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energy and excitement as they pursue, you know, very lofty
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ambitions and dreams and, and, and everything else about the
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curriculum. It's, it's evident how
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thoughtful it is, how it really serves to build these, these
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blocks like the solid foundations that will be
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necessary for them to then go out into society and not only
15:46
get a good job and contribute to society, but also to really in a
15:53
way, kind of be in awe of their surroundings, interrogate what's
15:57
around them, take pleasure in and all the intricacies of, of
16:02
life and through that have deeper fulfillment.
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And I think that's such a wonderful, wonderful way to, to
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speak about an education that I think is direly needed in the
16:12
world that that we live in. And you know, I from from what
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you shared this classical education really meant so much
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to you growing up. And, and you said that Latin in
16:24
particular was a subject that you really, really, really
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enjoyed. That's what got you started on
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this, you know, teacher and educator journey.
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Could you speak about like, what was it about the subject of
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Latin that really helped ignite that spark within yourself?
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Yeah, so I'll start with how I came to the decision to take
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Latin in the 1st place. I, I didn't take it until I was
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a junior in high school. And most people get started when
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they're younger. Maybe they're freshmen or, you
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know, maybe they were in middle school when they, when they
16:57
started to, to learn Latin, But I started to get really into
17:00
history and in philosophy and I started to read a lot and I kept
17:04
coming across all these Latin terms that I didn't understand
17:07
and know. And so as I always, I need to
17:09
take Latin. And so I, when I walked into the
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class, I was already, I'd already developed a natural
17:14
curiosity of some things and I was excited to be in the class,
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but I just had the most wonderful teacher and she would
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host these after school sessions.
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And, you know, we played like a Jeopardy style game with it.
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And we would go to the junior classical league competitions.
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And it was the first time ever that I had been surrounded by a
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community of peers who encouraged each other.
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So it was very common to come in after school on a Tuesday or
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Wednesday afternoon and somebody would say, oh, like, what did
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you study last night? Like, what do you, what do you
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like reading right now? And I've never encountered
17:51
anything like that. And I've become like such a huge
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believer in school and the concept of the community of
18:00
knowledge, like how we transmit and encourage each other to
18:06
through the process of learning, become better people, right?
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I think, you know, I think that's the I, I really think
18:12
that is the purpose of school. And you know, at our, at our
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school, at SPCA, our motto in Latin is Sapientia pro
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humanitate wisdom for the benefit of humanity, right?
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Using our wisdom to go out into the world and help others.
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So I got really into the JCL thing in high school and it was,
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it was amazing. I loved it, but not only, but
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that was just a vehicle, right? What it taught me was, and I'll
18:43
never forget this, I was, I was sitting in my American history
18:49
class in 12th grade and one of my classmates was reading
18:55
Virgil's Inniat in Latin. And, and she leaned over and
18:58
she's like, hey, can you, can you like, I'm kind of lost here.
19:00
Can you like help me read like this passage?
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And so I like leaned over and I was helping her with it and it
19:07
just kind of hit me like I could do anything.
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Like if I can read this, like if I can take this ancient text and
19:13
just read it, you know, and I can train myself to do that.
19:17
Like I could do anything. And I, and I think that's really
19:20
what Latin helped me realize. And I think that's what an, a
19:24
great education helps others to, to realize that as human beings,
19:29
we have the potential to do anything.
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And it's when you when you realize that it's actually, it's
19:37
what the philosopher Immanuel Kant in the late 18th century
19:43
called enlightenment, he wrote a essay called What is
19:46
Enlightenment? And basically what he says, it's
19:48
when man, mankind, it's, it's when you no longer have to rely
19:53
on the tutelage of another to understand something.
19:56
When you've gotten to the point where you can have this
19:58
understanding, you know, call it the allegory of The Cave from
20:01
Plato, whatever, but it's that idea.
20:04
And, and Latin really did that for me.
20:06
And when I became a teacher, like my daily obsession was, how
20:12
can I give that back to my students?
20:15
Right. Can I, can I help students to
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realize that and can I get them to that point where, you know,
20:23
through my enthusiasm and my teaching, right?
20:26
Can I gift that to them? Right.
20:28
So yeah, that's just a little bit of of how I how I view Latin
20:32
for me on a personal level. That that makes me want to study
20:38
Latin and it's pretty cool. Yeah, right.
20:42
And there's just so much that you shared that really is
20:45
inspiring. I I love the way you framed.
20:48
It's a community of knowledge, right?
20:50
Like what is the purpose of school?
20:51
You said it's a community of knowledge And, and the way that
20:55
you described the, the Latin club that you were part of and
20:59
the, the, the eagerness and the excitement of really asking one
21:03
another what they're studying and wanting to help and learn
21:06
together. I don't know.
21:08
I, I think for me it that didn't really, I didn't have a sense of
21:11
that for myself until like college.
21:15
But for you to have that start, you know, in secondary, I think
21:18
is, is already so, so promising for yeah, like what what will
21:24
then come right of your studies and and to think of like one
21:28
studies with some kind of like, I think deeper, deeper purpose,
21:33
right, Because you said that Latin helped you to, you know,
21:36
come to this understanding and realization that like the world
21:39
is your oyster, right? What what is it that you want to
21:41
do? And then it comes down to taking
21:44
action towards that. And for you, it sounds like be
21:48
becoming the best teacher you can be is where you really honed
21:52
your your skills and brought in all of your interests and
21:54
passions. And in a really noble way, I
21:59
wanted to extend that to many other young learners so that
22:02
they could experience that sense of fulfillment just as you had.
22:05
And and yeah, that's it really just like uplifts the whole like
22:10
profession of like teaching. I feel like when you're able to
22:13
understand school in that way and recognize that the, the
22:18
spark that you're hoping to ignite and other students can
22:22
only really happen when it's been ignited within yourself
22:25
first, right? And so I think that that's,
22:28
that's really, really powerful. I think teachers play such a
22:32
fundamental role in schools specifically, specifically for
22:37
that purpose. Of course, the curriculum, the
22:39
school facilities, all of that are very, very important.
22:43
But I do think that that student teacher kind of dynamic is so
22:47
important. Could you speak a little bit
22:49
more to that since I know you have many, many years of of
22:52
teaching experience and you've seen so many different successes
22:56
in the programs and classes that you've you've LED.
22:59
I'm sure you've also had rough patches where maybe there were
23:02
frustrations and difficulties and what have you.
23:05
But in terms of student teacher kind of dynamics, how is it that
23:11
you approach that? And then also within the the
23:14
wider context of a classical education, what does that mean?
23:18
Yeah, no, I think the student teacher relationship is the most
23:22
important relationship in a school, right?
23:25
It's where the success of the school really rises or falls.
23:30
If, if that, if there's a great relationship between students
23:33
and teachers and, you know, respect learning.
23:39
So that's, that's number one. I think you, you hit the nail on
23:42
the head with the idea that, you know, there's curriculum, but
23:46
then there's the teacher. And some people refer to this as
23:50
the primary curriculum in the secondary curriculum, right.
23:52
So, you know, I would never say that curriculum is not
23:55
important. I, I believe that it is very,
23:57
very important, but you know, if you can have curriculum and if
24:02
you don't have great teaching behind that curriculum, you're
24:07
not going to have a lot of success in, in the, in the scope
24:11
of your school. Like both have to exist
24:13
alongside of each other. And so I, I like to refer to it
24:18
as, as the, as the love and knowledge quotient.
24:22
So, you know, teachers have to have love for their students and
24:28
care really is what that is, right?
24:30
Love and care, empathy, but they also have to have knowledge and
24:35
they have to bring that knowledge and be able to convey
24:37
that knowledge to to their students at at every level.
24:42
That's, you know, a kindergarten teacher working through letters
24:47
or, or numbers and, you know, all the amazing things that
24:53
kindergarten teachers do. And that's a calculus teacher
24:56
right in the 11th or 12th grade, you know, teaching, you know,
25:00
derivatives or, you know, a whole number of, of, of other
25:05
things. And so I, I think those, those
25:07
aspects of teaching for me are the, are the key.
25:11
But yeah, it's, it starts with teaching and, and one of my
25:14
favorite things as a school leader is to really be obsessed
25:19
with the great teaching and learning and for that to be the
25:23
genesis of the school's culture, right?
25:25
We're thinking about teaching and learning.
25:27
We're thinking about inspiring kids to learn every day.
25:32
And there are sometimes when, you know, we, we try a lesson
25:35
and it just falls flat, right? And we got to go back to the
25:38
drawing board. But as teachers, we should
25:40
always be thinking about, you know, how do I best convey this
25:45
information, this lesson to my students, You know, over and
25:50
over again. And can I ask a follow up
25:54
question? Yes.
25:55
You know, you mentioned you're talking about like how important
25:58
teachers are. And yeah, that, you know, the
26:01
success of the school will be determined based off of the
26:04
quality of these teachers. What?
26:06
What makes for a good teacher? I mean, it's a very simple
26:09
question, but yeah, how would you unpack that?
26:13
Yeah, well, I would go back to love and knowledge right for me.
26:17
But you know, there are, there are some real definitive things
26:22
that you look for. You know, a good teacher is one
26:26
who knows when to tighten the reins and when to loosen them.
26:32
A good teacher knows and, and, and practices a classroom that
26:37
is both orderly and joyful. And that's a balance, right?
26:43
That's a balance. A teacher realizes that they
26:46
are, you know, they're a caretaker, but that the students
26:52
are, you know, not theirs in this total sense, right.
26:56
You know, like, you know, we all hear stories about teachers with
26:59
and you know, like, hey, there's a boundary issue here, right,
27:02
You know, with, with a student. So I, I think that that that
27:06
sense of creating, you know, a structure, like kids need
27:11
structure, but kids also need play.
27:15
And both of those things can exist within a classroom space
27:20
and outside of the classroom space at the same time.
27:23
So, and it can be a delicate balance, but you know, if it's,
27:28
if it's just grind, grind, grind, grind, grind all the
27:32
time, you know, the students can, can struggle with that.
27:35
So you got, you got to be able to have some fun with them
27:39
depending on the grade level, the lower and you know, middle
27:42
grades, and I would say even to an extent, the upper grades, you
27:47
know, you, you can't take yourself too seriously.
27:51
And one of the things that I always try to coach my teachers
27:54
on because it was a great piece of advice that I got when I
27:56
started teaching is, you know, try as hard as you can not to
28:01
take it personally. You know, the kid, the kids are,
28:06
you know, they're saying this, they're doing that.
28:08
They're not doing it because of you, you know, or in spite of
28:14
you. They're doing this because
28:17
they're kids and they might need a correction, right?
28:20
But you know, if you can, if you can do that, if you can separate
28:23
yourself from that and live in a world.
28:26
And I think this is really important as well, live in a
28:29
world that's non judgmental of them because I feel really it is
28:34
strongly that when we judge them, we lose them.
28:37
I think that about people in general, but I think that about
28:40
kids especially, you know? And so those are some of the
28:43
things that I think are really important in terms of the recipe
28:47
of what makes a great teacher. Wow, there was.
28:50
There's a lot of wisdom that you shared just now and I appreciate
28:53
you for unpacking that question of what does it mean to be a
28:57
good teacher? Because what you shared is
29:00
rooted in your own experiences as well as from your own
29:04
learnings from, you know, really great teachers before you.
29:09
And then that last bit you said about like when we judge them,
29:12
we lose them. Like, oh, that was profound
29:15
because, yeah, it applies well beyond just the classroom
29:18
environment, but even in our day-to-day lives, because I
29:22
think, I don't know, maybe just the way society functions and
29:29
how we're kind of conditioned to kind of make these judgments.
29:33
And yeah, and, and kind of, I don't know, it can lead to
29:38
barriers. It can lead to friction.
29:41
And I think when you're really trying to, you know, build a
29:46
relationship with another person, learn from them, work
29:49
together with them, whatever it might be, you really want to
29:54
give them the benefit of the doubt and yeah, and approach it
29:58
in a similar way. So in that sense, I think it
30:00
would behoove a lot more people to think like a good teacher.
30:05
But, you know, I think the, the training of being in a classroom
30:08
of, you know, I don't know, a dozen or more students is it's,
30:14
it's, it's tough. It definitely can wear on, on
30:16
you. But I think, you know, for
30:18
myself, when I think about how I learned to become a teacher, it
30:22
was often trial by fire and just testing out a lot of things,
30:28
going back to the drawing board, like you said, seeking from
30:31
those who have more experience and taking deep breaths and just
30:36
continue trudging forth, you know, So, you know, with all of
30:40
that that you shared, you know, I mentioned that there was so
30:42
much wisdom to what you you talked about.
30:45
And I wanted to bring the attention or focus on the, the
30:49
school motto of the South Bay Classical Academy, which you
30:54
said in Latin. So I cannot actually repeat that
30:56
unless I had it written in front of me.
30:58
But I did, you know, write down it's, it's says wisdom for the
31:02
betterment of humanity. So I think that's such a
31:05
beautiful mission statement. So the first question I want to
31:08
ask is, how did, how did that mission statement come about?
31:12
Like what were some of the discussions that were necessary
31:16
to then get to such a succinct and powerful school motto?
31:20
Yeah, that's a great question, Scott.
31:22
So it came about as I, as I worked with the board throughout
31:28
the 2425 year. So I was, I was finishing up my
31:33
time in, in Indiana at Canterbury, but I was also able
31:37
to spend a little bit of time that year with our board and we
31:41
were working on the vision of the school, what we wanted it to
31:44
be, you know, so, you know, dreaming big about, about, about
31:48
the school. So I had prepared some potential
31:52
mottos and, and, and things that I thought would resonate with
31:57
them. And it was so fascinating
32:00
because we got in a room, we started talking and they were
32:03
like, these these mottos are great.
32:06
But you know, and, and basically the conversation was, you know,
32:09
we don't really like any of them, right?
32:12
We like pieces of them. We like parts of them.
32:15
But you know, what we really want to convey is the idea that,
32:19
you know, we're cultivating wisdom in students.
32:21
And so let's just, you know, let's differentiate wisdom and
32:24
knowledge, right? You know, things, right?
32:26
You know, we all know things, we learn things in school, but how
32:28
do we apply those things? How do we have discernment and,
32:34
you know, quote UN quote wisdom? So, yeah, I mean, we, we want
32:38
students to be able to to, to use their knowledge for the
32:42
betterment of other people, for humanity, which was I felt.
32:48
And those were the words that were spoken out loud in English.
32:52
And then we all looked around and went, whoa, that's it.
32:55
Like when we think about our school, when we think about our
32:59
students and the type of people that we want them to become
33:03
right through the vehicle of a classical education, we want
33:06
that, you know, that that's inspiring.
33:09
Sign me up for that. You know, I for for years at
33:15
Canterbury, I would meet with kindergarten, incoming
33:17
kindergarten parents and I would say to them, imagine, you know,
33:22
you're, you know, your son or daughter, like they're
33:25
graduating, it's 12 years from now, they're graduating, they're
33:29
getting their diploma. Like, what do you want to see
33:31
them, you know, become in that moment?
33:33
You know, and, and nobody ever said I want them to go to
33:37
Harvard or Yale or Princeton or, you know, any, or even said I
33:41
want them to be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer, an
33:43
entrepreneur. Like that never came up.
33:45
What parents said is I want them to be a good person.
33:49
I want them to have a grounded sense of purpose, and I want
33:53
them to be confident and ready to take on challenges in the
33:56
world and resilient. And, you know, these are these
33:58
are not necessarily within the curricula of most schools,
34:03
right? The way that we view it is
34:06
through, you know, the the literature that we read, the
34:09
stories that we tell, the lessons that we inculcate, the,
34:13
you know, the history that we learn, you know, the mathematics
34:16
that we learned, right? That'll be a piece of part of
34:19
the story of how we educate. But really, it came about from
34:24
this organic process. And we looked around and we
34:28
said, yeah, we want our kids to, to, to cultivate, want to
34:33
cultivate their wisdom. We want them to go out and we
34:36
want them to use that to make the world a better place for
34:39
the, you know, for the benefit of all of humanity, all of
34:43
humankind. So we're talking about global
34:45
citizenship, right? And, and, you know, you, you
34:47
spend a lot of time on your podcast talking about what that
34:49
means, right? Yeah.
34:51
We want our kids to go out and, and do good in the world.
34:55
And you know, that to me, I, I feel like if you're standing up
35:00
and you're saying this is who our school is and this is what
35:04
will be to me, that's inspiring. It's not just like, oh, yeah,
35:07
the kids will do great on the SAT or they'll, you know, learn
35:10
calculus and they'll be good at chemistry and they'll read Jane
35:14
Austen. Like, those are all great
35:15
things, trust me. But like, we're going to, we're
35:18
going to use our wisdom to benefit humanity.
35:20
Yes. Yes.
35:22
Fill my soul up with that. Right.
35:24
Yeah. I love that.
35:27
That's it's beautiful. And I think when it comes to
35:31
something like a mission statement, school motto, like,
35:34
you know, people read it and, and it strikes a chord.
35:39
And I think, you know, those are the, the, the families that end
35:43
up, you know, deciding to, to enroll their, their child.
35:46
And I think that's so important. It's, it's so cool to hear the,
35:49
the, the origins of that and, and really understanding that so
35:53
many conversations had to take place in order to arrive at
35:57
that, that, that statement and, and all of it was informed by,
36:03
you know, who knows how many decades of, of experience and
36:07
who knows like how many different, like kind of personal
36:10
insights that then led to these conversations and these kind of
36:15
back and forth, this looks good, this doesn't look good.
36:18
Let's kind of mix and match and like, let's really then scrap
36:22
everything and then like focus on wisdom.
36:24
And I think yeah, yeah, it's. And then what you were talking
36:27
about in terms of like the vision for parents about their
36:31
child, what, what will, what will this be this, you know,
36:35
this almost like this project, this human project of raising
36:39
this individual before me. And, you know, no one knows what
36:44
necessarily like the the details of it will be the different
36:48
pathways that they're going to take.
36:49
But you describe these, these values and these dispositions,
36:54
the mindsets that will really help students to navigate
36:59
increasingly complex life scenarios, but also having that
37:04
groundedness that you were talking about, that deeper sense
37:07
of like, what is it that I'm aiming towards?
37:09
And then the confidence to know that you can get there.
37:12
And that's, that's, that's so beautiful.
37:14
I think that really, you know, classical education or not,
37:17
that's kind of what education writ large should be.
37:20
And, and, and it also speaks to like how long term a project
37:25
education is that you can't just look at it from one semester to
37:30
the next. You're, you're talking decades,
37:32
if not entire lifetimes, generations, because then yes,
37:37
not only there. So this, this, this parent will
37:39
be enrolling their their child, but in a way they're kind of
37:43
enrolling themselves as well, don't you think?
37:45
Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, one of one of my
37:50
dreams at some point, because I've been thinking about this a
37:53
lot, is to create some opportunities of learning for
37:58
parents and adults. I was sitting at a conference in
38:03
New York City a number of years ago.
38:05
And we were listening to a presentation from an acting
38:11
troupe in New York. And they're, they're a veteran,
38:15
a veteran group. And they put on Greek tragedies.
38:19
And they were doing, and they do readings from Greek tragedies.
38:22
And they were doing a reading from the Agamemnon.
38:26
And it's the scene where Agamemnon has to sacrifice his
38:28
daughter Ipigenia in order for the Greek fleet to sail to Troy.
38:33
And it's like this very painful moment where, like, he doesn't
38:36
want to do it, but he has to do it.
38:37
The gods are, you know, impelling him to do it.
38:40
And if he doesn't do it, then, you know, they can't go to Troy.
38:44
But we were all sitting around going, wow.
38:47
Like, I understand this in such a different way in my late 30s
38:53
than I would have ever done at 16, you know, But but we have 16
38:57
year olds read those texts sometimes.
39:00
And it was really a conversation about the timelessness of
39:03
literature, right? And the humanness of literature.
39:07
And I've talked to several parents who've said, like, oh,
39:09
I'd love to come in and learn this thing or be in your class
39:12
or like, you know, study, you know, this text with this
39:16
teacher. And you know, how cool would it
39:18
be to set up like a after hours, like, you know, just like
39:23
classes for I mean, I feel like if I could go back to like
39:28
middle school with just my attitude towards learning now,
39:31
like how much could we learn and accomplish?
39:34
And, you know, it's part of growing up, but I just, I love
39:38
that idea of the parents being a part of it too, potentially.
39:42
And you know, it just it makes me think about that, you know,
39:46
Hey, we could, we could be like an extension school and and do
39:50
something for the parents. That'd be fun.
39:52
It would be so much fun and you know, that speaks to the family
39:55
and community engagement side of things where we we all see each
39:59
other as partners in, in this, this exciting journey that is,
40:03
you know, for their their child to kind of really progress and
40:06
and learn. And, and I think just kind of go
40:09
back and forth this like they share and the parents can share
40:13
rather than just it being a one way St.
40:16
Unfortunately, I think in in cases where students are not
40:20
enjoying the school that they're at, there's not even an exchange
40:23
going on. And and that's the kind of like,
40:25
you know. Fragmenting or, you know,
40:28
alienating kind of side of where where things have have gotten in
40:31
terms of yeah, education in a lot of places, but not to, you
40:36
know, dwell on that. I think the the the fact is like
40:40
what you're talking about, I don't think it's too far
40:43
fetched. And I know that it, it only
40:45
takes a specific, I don't know, like weekly meet up that will
40:51
get a parent interested or maybe it's a particular guest leader,
40:56
I mean, I guess Speaker or maybe a particular subject or whatever
41:00
it is to kind of, you know, hook them for them to then, you know,
41:04
have their own spark be reignited.
41:06
Hopefully it's already there. But you know, to really, you
41:10
know, pool their interest and their passions together.
41:13
Because again, it goes back to what you were talking about,
41:15
that community of knowledge that it's just meant to expand and
41:19
kind of just envelope everyone. And also a quick aside, My my
41:23
mom, you know, she was never much a reader and she didn't
41:29
have a very solid education growing up in South Korea.
41:33
And then, you know, she was immigrant coming to the US.
41:35
So she always kind of felt like, oh, I can't read, you know, I
41:37
just don't have that training. But I would say the past couple
41:40
years she's gotten into like, audiobooks and she's been
41:43
reading all of these books now. And she was like listening to
41:47
Charlotte's Web and then Where the Red Fern Grows.
41:50
And I know these are some of the books.
41:51
These are classics. Yeah, two of my favorites.
41:54
Right. And so the way that she's
41:56
talking about it and like the kind of just, it's like that
41:58
child, like, you know, excitement, Yeah.
42:01
It's like, yeah, we all need that to be rekindled when within
42:04
us, whether we're actually, you know, you know, in like
42:07
elementary school or we're like in our 30s or, you know, a
42:12
little bit further down the line, not to reveal my mom's
42:14
age, but, you know, she's, yeah, shout out to my mom.
42:17
But yeah, I, I appreciate that. And I think that's a really,
42:20
really great way to engage parents.
42:23
And so, you know, I wanted to now kind of ask a little bit
42:27
more because I know we kind of touched on this when we were
42:28
discussing like the motto of really preparing them to, to
42:33
make the world a better place. And so could you speak to the
42:37
civic side of, like, you know, classical education and yeah.
42:41
And what does it mean to be a good citizen as well?
42:43
I'm curious. Right.
42:45
Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, there's the sort
42:49
of, I'm going to go back to the 18th century, kind of sort of
42:53
the time of the, you know, Age of Revolution, foundation of the
42:58
American Republic, French Revolution, you know, that sort
43:01
of ideal of, of citizenship. And it's, it's shifted, you
43:06
know, somewhat since then, but I think there are some core
43:08
principles that that remain. And even going back to, you
43:11
know, ancient Greece, right? If we go back to ancient Athens,
43:13
like, what does it mean to be a, a good citizen?
43:15
And fortunately, we live in a world where, you know, the
43:19
meaning of citizenship has expanded because in ancient
43:22
Athens, citizenship was pretty limited, right, in terms of
43:26
being a male property owner of, of Athens.
43:29
And you know, of course, not everyone was a citizen at the
43:33
founding of our country, right? Citizenship has expanded over
43:36
time. You know, rights and liberties
43:38
have expanded over time. But I think it means a, a couple
43:41
of core things that I think #1 it means being informed, right?
43:45
It means knowing not only about history, laws, constitution,
43:52
civil rights and civil liberties, all those things.
43:56
I think educating students in that way is key.
44:00
I think helping them participate in it, like what does it mean
44:03
to, you know, run for office or be a public servant?
44:07
You know, what does it mean to volunteer and and to invest in
44:11
your community? I think that's an important
44:14
aspect. I think it's also important to
44:16
teach them to have conversations and to be confronted with ideas
44:25
that are maybe not ones that you share, but being able to, you
44:31
know, consider those ideas and not be moved to like anger or
44:35
vitriol. I think if you look across our
44:38
political landscape and it and, and I will say it's, it's been
44:43
this way for a long time. We can go back to the 1790s,
44:47
right, which was one of the most contentious periods in American
44:51
political history, you know, federalists and anti
44:53
federalists. And but I think that, you know,
44:56
one of the things that we've, we've sort of, I don't want to
45:01
say mastered, but it's been a core part of our experience is,
45:04
hey, we can have a conversation and we can disagree politically,
45:09
but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies, right?
45:11
We can be friends and, and disagree politically about our
45:15
opinion. So teaching kids to be able to
45:17
do that, to engage in civil discourse, you know, the
45:21
marketplace of ideas, I think that's critically important to
45:27
not only, you know, their American citizenship, but also a
45:30
global citizenship right to be able to converse with others.
45:35
We're always going to have disagreements about things.
45:39
And you know what a boring life it would be if we just all
45:41
agreed about how everything should work.
45:44
Actually, that would probably be pretty terrible because we'd be
45:47
living under some form of tyranny.
45:49
But, you know, helping kids to understand that, you know, we
45:54
can have conversations and and disagree, but still be the best
45:58
of friends at the end of the of the day.
46:01
I think that's that's something that classical education aims to
46:06
inculcate within the students. You know, being able to think
46:09
critically, think for yourself, defend your ideas, but at the
46:13
end of the day, you know, have a good conversation with somebody
46:18
that that doesn't, you know, create vitriol or anger or, you
46:22
know, all those things. Wow, Yeah, I, I agree with all
46:29
the points that that you raised. I feel that there's an important
46:34
part about how informed we are so that we could then make
46:39
confident decisions and, and actions because, you know, we're
46:42
all, you know, I, I feel this word interconnected comes up a
46:47
lot and my discussions about global citizenship.
46:49
But again, it's like knowing how we're enmeshed within this web
46:54
of, of relations with others. And so hence, you know, let's
46:57
really try to be more mindful and conscientious as far as the
47:03
conversations that we have, the participation that we take,
47:06
knowing that, you know, we want to get, you know, a value add to
47:11
our community. We want to really be able to
47:14
support others. And I think again, like this
47:18
point that you said about, it's like you didn't frame it this
47:21
way, but it's like, you know, being able to like engage with
47:24
others who have differing viewpoints and be able to like
47:28
hold space for that and, and respect that without necessarily
47:33
running away or taking it personally or going in the other
47:38
direction of just fighting back, right, lashing out or the
47:41
vitriol that you, you mentioned. So these are really important
47:45
for us now. And I think like in the is, is
47:51
it most like, so how do, how do we prepare someone like what is
47:55
the education more of like modeling that or is the
47:58
opportunities that we give young people to play a role like to
48:03
step into that role? Yeah.
48:05
Could you just share like just a few things about how do we
48:07
foster someone like that? Right.
48:10
So I think it it comes down to a couple of important points. 1 I
48:15
think the adults have to model that, you know, 'cause kids are
48:19
perceptive, you know, they, they pick up on things.
48:21
So I think, you know, the, the adults have to model that type
48:25
of behavior. I think also, you know, the idea
48:31
of Socratic dialogue is important, you know, especially
48:35
in, in, in any school environment, but in a classical
48:37
school in particular, kids should be discussing things a
48:40
lot. You know, there should be
48:42
conversation, there should be engagement, you know, and the
48:49
teacher can be the great arbiter of that.
48:54
And so when I taught history for for many years, we would do, you
49:00
know, we would do seminars and the students would prepare the
49:04
questions. And the questions were always
49:07
meant to be analytical, you know, not just a factual
49:09
question about, you know, when Napoleon died, right?
49:12
We can look that up, right? It's 1821, Who cares?
49:15
But, you know, like, did Napoleon save the French
49:18
Revolution or did he destroy it, Right?
49:20
And now the students are spending 10 to 15 minutes, you
49:24
know, conversing on this point and discussing it.
49:27
So I think the more we can help students to be comfortable with
49:31
the dialogue, the more we're going to help them establish
49:37
comfortability with being, you know what, just a citizen in the
49:40
world and their place in it. But there are so many different
49:43
things that we can do to model that and teach that.
49:45
I'm a big believer in having students stand up and give
49:48
presentations. And, you know, for a lot of
49:51
students, that's uncomfortable. For me as an adolescent, it was
49:54
very uncomfortable. I got over it through the
49:57
concept of being in front of people.
50:00
But, you know, I think all of those things are powerful
50:03
mechanisms to helping the students be comfortable
50:08
expressing their opinions, comfortable, like you said,
50:10
holding space for opinions with which they don't agree and and
50:17
ultimately, you know, being productive contributors to
50:24
advancing the the human conversation forward, if that
50:29
makes sense. But that doesn't make sense.
50:31
And and you mentioned the word comfortable a couple times and I
50:34
don't know if it's ever and I'm not insinuating that this is
50:38
what you meant, but to like to reach a state of like, oh, I'm
50:41
comfortable now and everything's good, right?
50:43
Learning like move on to the next thing.
50:45
But I do feel that another reframe of that, and I think
50:48
what you were expressing more is this need to be able to sit in
50:54
like that uncomfortable state and recognize that there's oh,
50:57
and this is discomfort, yes. And then recognize that there's
51:00
a lot of growth to be had in in that particular state.
51:03
Because I think with getting out of that comfort zone, at least
51:06
for myself, like when I was in front of a lot of people talking
51:09
or doing, you know, I don't know, a new having a
51:13
responsibility of some kind and trying to carry that forward.
51:17
It always is, you know, difficult.
51:19
But it's, it's me getting out of my comfort zone and then pushing
51:23
forward. Yeah.
51:24
It's kind of like embracing the discomfort, you know, being
51:27
comfortable with either being exposed to things that you don't
51:31
agree with or, you know, understanding that, you know,
51:38
you've got to, I mean, you know, to use a cliche, right, you kind
51:41
of roll with the punches, but it's really not that.
51:43
It's really being able to handle moments where, yeah, you don't
51:50
necessarily agree or there's ambiguity, right?
51:53
And you can, you know, maybe that's a form of resiliency, you
51:57
know, sort of being able to kind of bounce back from things.
52:00
But yeah, I think, you know, holding, you use the phrase
52:03
holding space. I really like that.
52:04
But yeah, being being comfortable with discomfort.
52:09
Yeah. And then that ambiguity that's I
52:13
think really powerful as well. We tend to just want things to
52:16
be in, you know, black or white and not necessarily really face
52:21
up to the ambiguity. That is probably the actual
52:24
reality of it. And I think the leadership, you
52:28
know, lessons that young people can learn by really holding that
52:32
space for ambiguity and then not maybe being too quick to jump
52:37
into it or make a decision or a judgement, but to to, yeah, have
52:42
that curiosity as far as like, well, am I really seeing this,
52:45
you know, like what is, what are the different angles and how,
52:49
how do I approach this? Maybe it's methodically or maybe
52:52
in a, in a different strategy and, and recognizing that
52:55
there's no right answer really. It's, it's really just about,
52:58
you know, your own preparation and your mindset going into it.
53:02
And then, yeah, rolling with the punches, you know, as they say.
53:06
So, yeah. Thank you so much.
53:08
David and I, I've been really enjoying this conversation so
53:11
much. I feel like we can go on for
53:13
much longer. I I do want to ask you one more
53:16
question, if that's OK. And it's a question that I ask
53:19
all my guests. It's book or movie
53:21
recommendation. Anything you'd like to share for
53:23
the read the listeners? Book or movie?
53:26
OK, yeah, I think my movie tastes are way too like, you
53:32
know, popular. I'd kind of go down some like
53:34
Star Wars or Marvel rabbit hole. So I'm going to do a book might
53:38
be a little more enlightening. So interestingly enough, the,
53:43
there's been a, a huge revival of like Stoic interest in Stoic
53:47
philosophy, you know, so like Marcus Aurelius and others,
53:52
Epictetus and Seneca, and it's been really interesting to see.
53:57
And I've, I've been a big proponent of Stoic philosophy
54:00
because it's helped me in particularly my leadership to,
54:07
you know, to, to kind of be like the calm in the storm sometimes.
54:11
So there's a writer, his name's Ryan Holiday wrote a, he's wrote
54:15
a bunch of stuff, but he wrote a book called The Obstacle is the
54:20
Way. And it's about overcoming,
54:24
overcoming obstacles. And I use this phrase all the
54:27
time with, with my staff, because in life we're going to
54:33
be confronted with challenges, you know, and I use this phrase,
54:37
you know, with, with high school students in particular, because,
54:40
you know, in my, in my life as a high school principal,
54:43
invariably I would have a student come in to my office and
54:46
they would just like, you know, they're overwhelmed, right?
54:49
They've got all these things. And the world is, is so tough
54:53
and their classes are tough and you know, they hit a wall,
54:55
right? And I would always say, well,
54:57
the obstacle is the way, right? We, we have to overcome the
55:01
obstacle. We can go over the wall, we can
55:03
go through it, but we can't just turn away from the wall and
55:06
avoid it. And so this idea that when we
55:11
have a challenge, like embracing that challenge, leaning into
55:16
that challenge, meeting that challenge, you know, that could
55:19
be a student, that could be a parent, that could be, you know,
55:23
whatever it is, I'm talking about school life, but whatever
55:25
it is that's in that's in front of you, embrace the challenge.
55:30
You know, you might say, Oh, I'm just, I'm not going to deal with
55:32
this thing. I'm just going to avoid it or
55:34
like it'll go away. Just embrace it, go for it, lean
55:39
into it. You know, the obstacle is the
55:42
way going through the obstacle. So it's a it's a short read, but
55:47
I think it's one of those things that from a leadership
55:50
perspective can help you, you know, maybe navigate and just a
55:54
life perspective, navigate a circumstance that we all
55:58
experience as humans, right? That thing that gets put in
56:01
front of us that's just driving us crazy and we don't want to
56:03
deal with. Right.
56:04
Just go through it. Yeah.
56:06
So, Ryan Holiday, the obstacle is the way.
56:10
Thank you so much for that, that book recommendation.
56:12
And if I may, you know, that actually got me thinking about
56:16
how you said your movie interests involves like Star
56:20
Wars or like Marvel. And and then when you said the
56:22
obstacles away, it was making me think of like the Mandalorian
56:25
because they say this is the way.
56:27
This is the way, yeah. Oh, maybe there's a connection
56:30
there, right, In terms of like that philosophy of like just
56:33
kind of very like honestly looking at that obstacle and
56:38
just saying I'm going to walk down this path and right, I'm
56:41
going to create the best outcome through this journey.
56:45
So yeah, so thought I'd put that out there too.
56:48
It was cool. Connection.
56:49
Yeah, Mandalorian was was was definitely a very cool and
56:56
unique part of the Star Wars experience, I felt.
57:00
Yeah, definitely. So that could be another
57:02
recommendation too. Indeed.
57:04
So of course. Yeah.
57:06
Well, so thank you so much, David, for this very, you know,
57:10
insightful conversation about classical education.
57:14
Also very inspiring to just with the way that you shared your,
57:17
your journey as a teacher and the, the really exciting work
57:20
that you're doing and founding a brand new school here in the
57:23
South Bay. It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's
57:26
really important to have more models like this.
57:29
And I think also in a way, the school can be a spark for
57:33
something much bigger within Southern California and then
57:37
even beyond. So I'm wishing you all the best
57:40
and really cheering for the success of the school and wanted
57:44
to pass it over to you one last time to share.
57:47
Any final thoughts? Any final send offs?
57:50
Yeah, no, it was. It was great being on the
57:52
podcast. I've been a long time listener,
57:54
so it was nice to finally be a participant.
57:57
I was looking forward to it and I just appreciate everything
58:00
that you're doing to, you know, to bring the concept of global
58:06
citizenship to a wider audience I think is extremely important.
58:10
And, you know, I'm looking forward to tuning in and seeing,
58:15
seeing how it goes.