Latest / New Worlder / Episode #91: Richard McColl

Transcript

Episode #91: Richard McColl · New Worlder

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: This is the New Worlder podcast, and I am one of your hosts, Nicholas Gill.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Co-host Juliana Duque will be joining shortly.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: Today,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: we are speaking with Richard McColl,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: a British Canadian journalist and podcaster and hotel owner based in Bogota in Mampos,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Colombia.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I've known Richard for at least a decade.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: I first knew him from his work as a fellow foreign correspondent covering subjects
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: all around Latin America,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: writing for international publications.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: In 2013, we met in person when I was writing a story about Mompost for the New York Times.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of my favorite stories that I've ever written for the Times because
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Mompost is such a special place.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's this stunning 500-year-old colonial city.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: on an island in the Magdalena River.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: It was once a major port,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: but then it was mostly forgotten as kind of that part of the river stilted up and
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: then war kind of cut it off from society.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it's this kind of strange,
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: mystical place with so much history and so many stories and quirky characters.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's a place that was a big inspiration for Gabriel Garcia Marquez,
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: the Nobel Prize-winning author,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: and you can feel the imagery from his books kind of everywhere you go there.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Richard's wife has family there,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: and he was kind of enchanted by it and ended up buying these two colonial houses there,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: which he turned into small hotels.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: They're called La Casa Amaria and San Rafael.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: We talk a lot about Mompost and its ghosts and how much easier it is to reach than
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: when I went there and had to take a 10-hour ride in a truck from Cartagena.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: While I was in Mompost, Richard asked me if I wanted to be on his podcast, which just launched.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was called Columbia Calling, where he interviews all kinds of subjects about Colombia in English.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: This was in 2013 and it was probably one of the original podcasts anywhere in Latin America.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I had even listened to a podcast at that time and probably just
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: vaguely knew what one was.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Columbia Calling is still going and it has now recorded more than 500 episodes.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Julie was just on a recent episode and they talk a lot about Colombian food and it's a great listen.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Richard also runs the Latin News podcast,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: and he recently started a small publishing company,
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: if he wasn't busy enough.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: They are books in English about Colombia,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: and it includes titles such as Better Than Cocaine,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Learning to Grow Coffee and Live in Colombia by the writer Barry Max Wills.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And Richard also has two books forthcoming,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: a general guide to politics,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: history,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: and culture called Colombia at a Crossroads,
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: and another one called The Mompost Project,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: about his life in that incredible place and the stories he has gathered and
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: witnessed there.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, it was great to catch up with Richard after all these years.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't subscribed to my newsletter,
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: just go to newworlder.com or search for New Worlder on Substack.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's free to subscribe, though paid subscribers get access to all of the content and archives.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's newworlder.com.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Also, look for my books, such as the Latin American Cookbook, at bookstores or online.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: There are links to them in the newsletter as well.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Also, we have a New Worlder YouTube channel.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: Full episodes of this podcast are there, as well as some shorter clips from older ones.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Just go to youtube.com slash newworlder.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: And please subscribe, like us, and share us.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Every little bit helps us get seen.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy the show.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, Richard.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: How's everything?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning to you both.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Everything is fine.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just walked 10.6 kilometers up the mountain this morning.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: You're in Bogota.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Bogota.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, Juliana and I live close by when she's in Bogota.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there we go.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to meet for coffee.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: I do not jog anything, ever.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I've just started to hike up the mountain.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's Las Moyas, which is a trail.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's about a kilometer away from my house.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go up to 3,300 meters above sea level.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's only about... Those hills are pretty steep.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: Believe me.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: My siesta this afternoon is going to be great.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: How long does it take you?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: It took me just over an hour to get to the top.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a midway point which takes about 40 minutes.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then the rest, it levels out after that.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: The hard stuff is at the beginning.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then it levels out.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you're up there with the frailejones.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: so that's yeah it's beautiful yes 40 minutes for the chickens yeah plenty of those
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: but i i uh none of my team turned up today because they're all hung over from the
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: columbia game all right uh so i did it alone and pushed myself that was a good game
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: i watched it as well uh
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was intense, but they pulled it out.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: From what I could hear of my neighbors, it must have been.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you won't watch the game at all?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: What happens when you watch?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I have to tell you, I've had a lifetime of disappointment.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, fair enough.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're always, as an England fan, we're always built up.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we do have great players.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then for some reason...
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think it has to do with a loser mentality and an island mentality and everything else.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I found the same in Colombia.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I've reached... Yeah, you transitioned without... Oh, it's been painless.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Just, you know, because for both teams...
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: When it's euphoric, it's incredible.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: But then the lows are pretty much normal.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but isn't it worth it when you finally win that...
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Something happens?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm probably going to have to watch this Sunday.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I can get away with it.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think my heart can take it.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, but don't you still feel it even though you know the game's playing?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you're paying attention for the most part.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I went to sleep for the first half.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: I just... Well, I was telling Nick that this is like emotional identity.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: But we didn't sleep last night.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: I live, you know, a block away from the main road and it was just beeps, horns all night long.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: So Richard, Richard, I was, so I was thinking, so I first met you.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think we were in contact for years before that, I assume.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: There weren't a lot of international journalists covering Latin America 20 years ago, really.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: What year did you arrive in Colombia?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I moved here full-time in 2007, but I'd been coming here since 1998.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: I had lots of jobs that came in Peru and Brazil and elsewhere.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was footloose and fancy-free and a vagabond around the continent, and it was great.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'd get paid for a contract because I did some I did guiding as well.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And social projects and stuff.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the pound was king.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't pay for anything for like six years.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was great.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But we met in Montpost because you came up for the New York Times.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I was there.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: I was writing a story for the New York Times.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: it's probably one of my favorite things I've ever written,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: at least for the New York Times,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: I just I love that story.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it just I loved going there.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: I heard so much over the years about Mom Post before that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of it from you.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think you first put it on my radar just because it was like I saw probably you
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: writing about this island in the Magdalena,
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: this lost city,
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: just still this beautiful architectural gem of
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: left alone untouched and just kind of like but it was almost erased off the map or
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: just i don't know what what do you call it like it was i you may have seen i wrote
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: i was prolific at the beginning because i ended up buying this house and i was just
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: like the first half of it you saw when i united the two houses but
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: I suddenly thought, oh, God, what am I going to do with this now?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I bought it because I didn't think about opening anything.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Was that kind of the last
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: thing on my in my mind and then I was like well it actually costs a lot of money to
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: restore a colonial house and I just I'm gonna have to make this work for me a bit
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: more it needs to generate and so I just slung in some beds and stuff and it opened
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: as a hostel so I was prolific in writing trying to get it out there into
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: the backpacker sphere because there were no other people.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I could do that on low investment.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: All I had to do was sort of patch up some holes,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: fill in some holes in the floor which had been uncovered and had bones in them.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they were colonial burial sites underneath the main room.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: I just had to do a little bit of sort of, you know, some handyman work, and it started to generate.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, do you put that on the brochure?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, it goes.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really careful.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Foreigners are less afraid, whereas Colombians come with a mysticism.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And a feeling and I've actually had this is later on.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've had high ranking now jailed politicians stay because they left other hotels
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: because they've seen either the figure of a lady sitting at the foot of their bed.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or they felt their feet being pulled.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so they've moved to mine because they figured it's newer.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, the house is amongst the oldest in the town.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: I feel...
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: presence more than anything like what my my parents said is that they felt the
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: weight of history whereas I sometimes feel things but the most haunted house is
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: clearly
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Alba, my wife's grandmother's house, which was connected to the Spanish Inquisition.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: What have you experienced there?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, one night, because I'm a great capitalist.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: I've even rented my own house out, my own room, everything.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's going to make me money to help repair the buildings.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'll move my whole family out and we move into the grandmother's house.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, she's 98, 99.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: And she has this house that backs onto where the Inquisition used to do their nefarious practices.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the house itself belonged to like the rey de la Inquisition, so the person in charge.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so one time I felt...
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: i saw a light uh buzzing around the room which they say is like a poltergeist uh
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: but everybody did my son uh well i just had one son at the time alba felt it my dog
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: was growling and then the smell of sulfur and drains and there were no drains in
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: that part of the house and
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: we just felt there was something on,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: but other people have seen the figure of a black slave boy on the floor in the hallway.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: and people have been locked inside a room, the key inside, and yet been locked from the outside.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's been all sorts of things,
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: but the locals just take it as part of what it is,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: whereas those of us who come from elsewhere are like,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: whoa,
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: something's going on.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: You said the weight of history, though, but it's like...
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: I get that.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of those places that really you feel that weight in a way,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: maybe just because it was,
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: and I guess probably still is to an extent,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: so disconnected from everywhere else.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what happened as well is that the history also is overlooked.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: The local people,
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: aside from those who are descended or claim to be descended from the original conquistadors,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: the local people don't know it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so it just sort of exists.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that...
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: actually manifest this weight a bit.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like lots of things have happened here,
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: but a lot of people can't put their finger on what exactly it is.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: My dad, a very well-read man, and a religious man along with his wife as well,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I found that to be the perfect description.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And where the Casa Maria is, is most likely where there was a military garrison.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it has been almost impossible to find the full history of the house.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: We think it might end up being in Sevilla in Spain,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: but in Mompos it no longer exists,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: and in Bogota it no longer exists.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we've only been able to go back, I don't know, a few generations.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: and and so there's something that's lost in it but the rooms the size of the rooms
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: the location the thickness of the walls and its uh proximity to the actual small
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: fortress and at the entrance of the town where the river would enter the town makes
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: sense and so there there is something there have been people who have heard
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: like uh almost the sound of soldiers running up and down stairs which is curious
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: because back then there were no stairs there was no second floor so it's it's weird
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: but the former owner whose name was anna leonor flores actually a distant cousin of
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: my mother-in-law they all are everybody in town i mean let's just let's let's cut
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: that out but um
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: She used to be seen in the house by people.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And apparently,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: when I had renovated the house to a standard,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: apparently she was incredibly pretentious and house proud.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Apparently,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: when I had renovated the house to a standard that the local people felt that Anna
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Leonor would appreciate...
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: They then started telling me that they saw her outside the house looking at it proudly.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: So they saw the apparition of her.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we've had guests say, oh, what happened to the old lady I was chatting to in the sitting room?
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, there's been no old lady in here.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: And they've described Anna Leonor.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, there is a weight of history.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: There is a weight of this mystical, spiritual, otherworldly, let's just say that.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I do feel that that is lost a lot.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: in the fact that local kids do not learn about the importance of where they have
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: grown up and its role in contemporary Colombia.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's also a real necessity to learn more about the,
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: the original indigenous or aboriginal people of the region,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: which is also overlooked,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: unfortunately.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was thinking about that, you know, I think it's fascinating
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: because you were saying there is nothing specific in a way,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I wonder if it's like a way we have to keep it loose so that it keeps being
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: recreative collectively,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: constantly,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: and that energy keeps going around,
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: because it's a way of,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: we're not sure,
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: it looks like this and this,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: and then the other person adds something,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: and it's like a narrative in constant construction and makes you wonder,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: there is this gray area between,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: reality and fantasy that it's like in places like where your hotel is,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: it's pretty gray,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I wonder.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Out comes the philosopher.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: in the three buildings that we have and the two hotels,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: people have seen or heard different things each time.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there are different,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: as you say,
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: narratives,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: especially when you talk to the people who are of the feudal upper class,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: for example.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: So in my own house,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: which is in the principal plaza,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: the Plaza de la Concepción,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: we were restoring that over the space of a year and a family.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody, you leave the doors open because everybody feels that
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: It belongs to the town rather than to you.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they want to see what you're doing.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the more notable families,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: descendants of conquistadors,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: came in and were looking around and sort of,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: this is amazing what you've done.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: You've rescued this house, et cetera, et cetera.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then pointed at an area in the garden.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: You dug up the garden to sort of, you know, so trees and so on.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: I said, yeah, yeah.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Did you find anything down there?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I was my,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: my little cousin was stillborn and we buried in there and that's,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: that's,
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: but nobody else knew that.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas you get people from, let's say other sectors of society who remember other things and.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: three,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: four generations ago,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: the window in the house was used as like a shop window onto the street where people
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: used to sell milk.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so more,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: people from a working class background recalled their grandparents saying that they
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: used to go up to the window to buy milk through the bars.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I think
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: The beauty of it is this lack of complete cohesion in the legends, I think is what you're saying.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think each person has a different perspective on it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is very exciting because even God knows how many years now since we opened,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: 2008 when we opened,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still learning and hearing different stories.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been one of those things where you sort of like,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I've known my mother-in-law that long as well.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And she's from Ombos.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then she'll just sort of come out with a story from her childhood that she's never told me before.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm furious.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because I wanted to know that years ago when I was really prolific writing about it.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: it has been a pleasure to be able to get new knowledge about this town that
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: supposedly I know so well.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you have two hotels now.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: When I was there, you only had Casa Amaria, the original one, kind of right on the waterfront, right?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right on the waterfront.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And when I was there, there weren't really other hotels.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think there was like one night kind of fancy boutique hotel,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: but it was basically empty when I was there.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then your place...
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: But has that changed a lot?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Are there like lots of them?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how many there are now because everybody saw us doing well.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so everybody opened, it was like a potluck that everyone brings something different.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone thought that that was the solution.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we kept saying, listen, open it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Open a restaurant, please open something else.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: But no, there must be more than 20.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: In all kind of colonial buildings restored.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in new buildings outside of town.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's curious because,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: you get every strata of Colombian tourist because now we've got paved roads and
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: bridges and
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: We are a strategic stop on the route to the Caribbean coast now.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: From where?
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: From Bogota?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: From everywhere.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: From Medellin, from Bogota.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: You can just turn off for an hour or so from the main road through paved roads and
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: go through an area that they've read about as kids,
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: probably,
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: and don't remember why,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: but
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: come through.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: From Medellin, it's a long way to the Caribbean coast and from Bogota, it's a long way.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's recommended that you stop somewhere and now with roads and bridges.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: You get Colombians who know that they need to visit this town.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're not entirely sure why and they're using it like
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: what would be the equivalent of, and Juliana will know this, Aguachica in the past.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's basically truck stop where there's 100-odd hotels that are all cheap.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So they use it in the same manner.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than being like a tourist visitor interested in the town, it's more of that.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got hotels that have sprung up close to the highway with car parks.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: In this colonial center, we can't have a car park.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now the hotel that you mentioned is Doña Manuela,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: which is the big,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: big one,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: which has been around forever.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was owned.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Down the line, there was a narco that owned it and then who was killed.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's now owned by the state.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: Estupefacientes has now changed their name as well.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's always leased to companies.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's too big to manage.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's too big to manage.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: It has 22 rooms, of which I would say 15 remain closed the whole time.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just too much.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's the hotel where the politicians stay and had their feet pulled and the lady
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: at the foot of the bed.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a great house and it was restored by the Ministry of Culture some years ago.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a phenomenal building.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, our other hotel is on the other side of the plaza in front of the river.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got the Casa Maria, which is in front of the river on one corner of the Santa Barbara Plaza.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: and a huge building on the other corner in front of the river, and that's our Hotel San Rafael.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it's more than 1,500 meters of colonial building,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: and the ceilings in the main sitting room are up to six or seven meters height.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's opulent, is the word I put.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it took an age to restore.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like getting there is much easier.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I went, you know, 10 years ago, like 2013, I think.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, 11 years ago, I remember like I had to like get in a truck at like 4 a.m.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: in Cartagena and just on this like miserable, bumpy ride for like, I don't know, 10 hours or something.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then I got there like, you know, evening time.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: But people are just driving by suddenly now.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds like it's super convenient.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it's not hard.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you still have to want to get there.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: You don't get there by chance.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: You can still get up at four in the morning in Cartagena if you wanted.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's now six hours,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: but it's still a pretty,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: it's not a fun drive because you're on there with all the trucks and so on.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: We have direct flights from Medellin and Cartagena.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, that makes it much easier.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: And these are not big planes.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: You're not flooding.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's only twice a week with, you know, 15 seaters, 20 seaters.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's actually quite nice.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to buy my tickets for next week, but they're all sold out.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you end up doing when that happens?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think what I'll do is we'll go to Cartagena and stay a night and then get a flight the next day.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because the beauty is because it's the flight from Bogota to Cartagena with Satena
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: is all booked up and I want just to buy the whole thing.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: know the bowl way with the connection um so i will fly in and i don't know an
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: avianca and stay the night and then it's like a 30-minute flight from carter henna
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: and it's great because you you have that wonderful descent over the town it's
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: really cool and then my uh motor taxi drivers know when we are arriving because of
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: course they see it and so they all rush out uh to get to the airport
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: What about, like, the food?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Have, like, restaurants and things changed?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what I remember was, like, super traditional things.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's the, like, queso de capa.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's, like, the stretchy.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is it kind of like mozzarella or Oaxacan-style cheese?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's, like, stretched out thinly and rolled up.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's beautiful.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: And, like, I remember just, like, people walking around with trays of it.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: That will never change.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that will always be there, right?
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: They stretch it out and then roll it up.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got the one that's the plain one,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: and then they've gone with the bocadillo,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: the guava jelly inside.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the other street food is the butifara.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: The sausages.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the mystery meat round sausage parts.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the best.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's basically momposino tapas for when you're drinking beer.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: But we have restaurants.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: We have restaurants.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, it's a hard sell when we go through such extreme high seasons and low seasons.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: we have new restaurants,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: a lot focused on the traditional food because people want that.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, locals or locals of means are now eating out more.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there is more of a flow.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we get I mean.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say there are three to four good restaurants.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: They're not going to be Michelin star, but they're good restaurants.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're reliable.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I was there, I remember Commodore Costeno.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: I was reading my story.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Is that still there?
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, beautiful place, like on the river.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: Just like simple traditional food, but like it was good.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like I ate there multiple times, I think.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you were there, it would have been the only place open.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll get –
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: non-matching cutlery and everything else.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's got the real ambience of that.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that's Doña Mary who cooks there.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: And she's been there.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these people are, you know, total personalities of the town.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a couple of years,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: around 2009 or 2010,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: but he may not have been open when you got there.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: An Austrian guy moved to town.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I went.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: I went to that place.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's like in a castle or something weird.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's the old fortress.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: There we go.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: I did go there.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's called El Fuerte, the pizza restaurant.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: So Walter arrived a couple of years after me.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's one of those people who's able to do anything and build and construct and just fashion anything.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: furniture restore buildings and he did an incredible job in restoring the old fort
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: so and opened up a place that was only open at weekends to begin with called el
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: fuerte and walter lived previously before cartagena before elsewhere in napoli
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: in Naples in Italy.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: He was a sailor, I believe.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think he sailed his boat over to Cartagena.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's all sorts of stories, some of which may be true, others may be legend.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: Anyhow, he opened up his pizza place.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I remember.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was legit good.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: I was surprised that I was in this fort, which was, I think, also the guy's house.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: He just bought a fort, which seems odd to me, but...
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: For 30 million pesos, he bought a fort.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: So he bought a fort and put a pizzeria in the fort.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: Back in 2009.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: And he lives upstairs, but now he lives elsewhere.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: He's actually moved out of the restaurant, which is a good thing.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Walter is a curious guy.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: He used to sun-dry himself naked on the roof after his shower.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so this was a problem for me because all my guests would be sitting on the roof terrace naked.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: enjoying a cold beer, and there'd be quite a portly Austrian man in his 70s, sun drying.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Did you just say it was like an apparition or something?
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, another apparition.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: But if you get the idea that he looks a bit like Father Christmas,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: and he wears robes that I guess he makes himself.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that his...
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: His fashion sense is taken from Star Wars.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean... Anyway, but Walter's a great guy.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: He's the other foreigner.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we know one another.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're friends.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're... As the sort of two... He lives there full time, so he gets it.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was great when he moved in because the whole glare of what the gringo was doing moved over.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like...
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: mala gente and they would say el australiano you were like no he's austrian and
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: nobody knew what austria was and i was the inglaterrano as well so it was the
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: inglaterrano and australiano and you're like i'm not where i'm from is is england
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: he's from austria so you became this you became the safe so it was good to have
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: another guy
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of the one who's,
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: a good sense of humor and I didn't really get in fights with people.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas Walter came in with his very set
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: form of being but he opened a restaurant that put us on the map that was one block
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: from the hotel so you could only imagine what that meant for us uh he's he's been
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: he's been uh definitely a positive influence in terms of the restaurant and so on
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: and then we have other locals that have opened up places and worked very hard and
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know again as i say
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: they're not going to win Michelin stars, but you get good food and no one gets sick.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's another thing you have to think about in these far off places.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: No, I remember the food being very good.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, simple and, you know, traditional kind of thing, but I remember it being very, very good.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I love that Comedor Costeno.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I like, I still remember eating like fried Boca Chico or something.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it's probably like, and yeah, it's nice and healthy and hearty.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just good.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have kibbes there?
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Do they travel there?
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Kibbes?
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: Kibbes, yes, we do.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: We do have kibbes.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's like the fast food on the street.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's a nice stroll to the end of the town, and there's a lady that sells the kibbes.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's the Arabic, or they'd say, los turcos, the influence.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is the same logic of Australianos in Latin.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: One other thing I remember,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm curious if it's still going on,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: but like every afternoon,
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: like the plaza,
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: it would be totally dead during the day,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: but then,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: in the heat.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: But then in the afternoon,
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: night falls,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: plaza,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: everyone,
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: gathered around the plaza and like just opera was blaring every day.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: But opera and like classical music, is that not the norm anymore?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: Are you sure it wasn't Bayonetta?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, does it sound more like opera?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I remember.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: I would, I wish it was opera.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, maybe my mind is fuzzy, but yeah, there was definitely some, like, more classical style music.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like, more romantic.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't like just fucking blaring reggaeton, you know, like in most towns would have.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was kind of...
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Accordion can be like that, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if it's French.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: Wasn't there like a classical music festival in Mampus?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: We did have one.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if we've had another one.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: But we now have a jazz festival, which is huge.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's awesome because we get international jazz musicians and they play in what
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: are free concerts in the plazas at night.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then the semilleros,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: so the students,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: the jazz students from Cartagena come down and they call jazz in the street.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're just playing.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: So every time you're walking down, you can hear the saxophone or the violin or something.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's in September.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there was a classical music.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that was.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: You were there also when there was some religious,
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember what it is,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: but it floated down the river.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: A virgin came down the river.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I remember some procession from the church right beside the hotel.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, on the river.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: But we have classical,
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: particularly Momposino classical music that goes with the processions of Easter weeks.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: but the two kiosks that are out front of the Casa Maria which have now mercifully
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: been demolished I've won the war we used to play Vallenato and a lot of places do I
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: mean that's the local the locally popular music even though Mompos is more known
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: for its cumbia music and
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: the cumbia and the mapale and the chande that all feed into the Barranquilla
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Carnival come from the region around Mompó.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very musical city.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: I wish at times that the music wasn't turned up to Colombian,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: that you could actually listen to the lyrics rather than just distortion.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then that is...
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: a national thing and you can go anywhere in the country and you could go to Salento
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: on a long weekend and not hear yourself think in the main plaza because of the music.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just something that happens.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_01: And in that respect, I am a grumpy old gringo.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, please, can you turn it down?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: We were talking about food earlier.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I wanted to mention, no, we kind of got off track talking about classical music.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: So Julie was on your podcast recently.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: And when you posted on social media,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: the reactions were funny because Julie said,
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: what did you say,
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Julie?
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like Colombian food is subtle?
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: but the reactions on social media, I thought I listened to the interview.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was great.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: And, uh, but the reactions on social media, like you put it on Facebook, it was very funny.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and I'm assuming that it was a lot of expats in Columbia.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: What I found interesting is that most of them, it seems like they didn't, they don't like Colombian food.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like they live there and they were just kind of complaining about it.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is that true?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: Do they mostly dislike Colombian food?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: I find it so strange, this thing.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can hammer Colombian food, some of it.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: Of course you can.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: But every region has its speciality.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: My issue is that Colombian food is so heavy.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: you know, the really traditional stuff.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: But like we talked on the podcast, it's the new Colombian cuisine.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I know you've written about the restaurants as well.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's phenomenal.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just about knowing where to go and what to eat.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you always, the people who seem to always react, well, I always have a few of the, I call it,
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're more well-meaning than trolls.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: But there's always a few that have to think,
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: and they always go,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: I ate the worst pechuga a la plancha.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's grilled chicken, dude.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, what do you expect?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're not trying something new.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're not eating the piangua from the Pacific, and you're not –
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's been restaurants that have been so much fun for their experimentation.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we mentioned Salvo Patria.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going there.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're just talking about the blue plate.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: They're just talking about everyday lunch plates and
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of what they were going to play.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: But like, but typical Colombian food is amazingly diverse.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_02: It is delicious.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's not all super heavy and it's so, as you said, it's so regional.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's, it's so like, I've had so many wonderful things in the last like couple of years, like in,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: like Guajira and, you know, like Cartagena and like Amazon.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, there's, there's amazing things.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And if you just,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_02: I was surprised how eager they were to just lump it all to like a fried arepa with,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: on the street of Bogota and,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: just,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're not, I mean, you're not, as a foreigner, you're not expected to eat that every day.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, try it, enjoy it, enjoy what it means.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then go and get what you want.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: I find it very odd because I think,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: another of the points is what I love is the availability of everything and how
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: fresh it is.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that to me is because you cook well with amazing ingredients and then the food's great.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to a place that's still serving up arroz or rice from the Corrientazo
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: three days ago,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be bad.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you go to a traditional,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: let's say a very traditional coffee place that has had the coffee in there for 16
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: hours in a greca,
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to be bad.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Don't go to these places.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I see two things here, and one is not related with food.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think that attitude is...
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the two of them, actually.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think that attitude is coming from,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: extreme positions come,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: lose the nuances,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: and they lose the nuances because there is not enough information.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: So this is basically ignorance.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you have extreme judgment about something, it's because you don't know enough about it.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, because you are missing the context, because you haven't traveled enough,
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Most of these people probably they haven't traveled as much as you guys have in Colombia.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, you know, it's not even taste.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's not having enough information about it.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the other one, which is what I call the colonized mind, is if it's our thing, it's bad.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because what is good is what is in Europe.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: This is changing.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: It still lingers.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: It still lingers around the continent.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Not just Colombia.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: It still lingers.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it has to do with that.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's our.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's bad.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not good enough.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: It also comes from within.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: It also comes from within as well.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: It takes a while.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: like, you know, Colombians or whoever, you know, something from abroad is always better.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it's changing.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that as we we were talking in that conversation,
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Richard,
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: the peace process helps a lot because,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: it gives another
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: face to the country and we believe in what we are doing.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: We are proud of that.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course we are proud of that.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: So all these things,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: are,
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: we'll see the consequences of that over time,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: but it's still,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: narco traffic is still our,
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: it's just,
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: so I'm not surprised.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's odd at all.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's very predictable.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is like, we,
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: don't we still don't have with good common restaurants in the world a few so what
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: people know as colombian food and when they want to be generous about it it's like
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: oh yeah i tried these amazing beans with some chicken maybe and it's like that's no
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: no forget about erase erase delete so
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have all that outside,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: yet,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: unless it's a very specific event with a very specific cook that goes and shows
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: piangua or something else,
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, I don't know.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: It'll take time, I think.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really interesting, actually.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Rather than
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: let's say going to Queens or,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Brixton or Seven Sisters in London,
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: the Colombian food is for Colombians.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's the standard Colombian fare.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's the, you know, what would you call it?
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: The taste of home.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than like, you know, properly experimental new Colombia food.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we do.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't even think it's just like new and experimental.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's just like...
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Just, yeah, just more regional.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what's lacking,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: not just Colombian food,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: but every Latin American cuisine that,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: aside of maybe Mexican,
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: that opens up in Europe or the States.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's just the regionality is usually missing.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: it just becomes this kind of list of national dishes that really don't have that
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: much identity other than just kind of
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, just like civic identity, I guess.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, you know, the Ajiaco has nothing to do with the Caribbean coast.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's the same here, as you say, this regionality.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: This has always been,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: a huge issue for Colombia as to how do you,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: especially in the tourism industry,
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: they're always looking for the slogan and they're always looking for,
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: the collective image.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: But there isn't.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there isn't, you can't, and they all go, oh yeah, the sombrero volteado, that's our symbol.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it isn't.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, a lot of people have it, but it doesn't represent the whole of Colombia.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's because Colombia is so many countries in one.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: You can say,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_01: you can say that about a lot of places,
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_01: but it feels,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: obviously,
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: living here and Juliana being Colombian,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: it
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: the regions are so proud of where they are, what they do.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's quite refreshing.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: But there is no singular image for Colombia.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing is like there is always a good version of a dish and a bad one.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're using cheating ingredients and if you're, you know, obviously it's going to be bad.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all lack of information, I think.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: and awareness of the context, as you were saying, for using that food in that specific.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: You don't eat that every day.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: it's just,
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember if I mentioned it or not before in our conversation,
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: but it's my Peruvian friend in London.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_01: complained all the time about English food and I said well you can of course you
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_01: can same thing right yeah but put it into the context that all food as well after
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: rationing in World War II it was it was about filling your stomach and working and
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: now of course you've got phenomenal restaurants at a price good restaurants and so
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: on but it's like I said what are you eating that's so bad
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, well, you showed me something.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: He bought a can of meatballs from like a corner shop because it was 50p.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I doubt there's any meat in that that you want to eat.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: Let's, you know, I know the Peruvian food is, I love it.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously I love the Peruvian food.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, well, you know, again, let's put it into the context and what you paid for that.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_02: So Richard, I also want to mention, um, talk to you about, uh, you started a publishing company.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: If you didn't have enough going on in hotel journalism, why not just like start a publishing company?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, uh, so how did this, how did this occur?
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like I have, yeah.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of jobs that don't really.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking of that, sorry, like before we get off of, get onto that podcast.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you've been at it for 10 years.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's, that's, that's amazing.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: You're like,
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: and you've built this audience for 10 years and that's why it's like,
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: it was fascinating to see how many people were engaged with like the post on
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: Julie's episode.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and it was, yeah, it was impressive.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: But like when I went, went on, like, I don't think I had ever listened to it.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I went on your podcast,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: in mom posts when I was there,
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think I was probably like one of the first episodes ever on it.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: You were in the top 20.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I had ever even listened to a podcast at that point.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like I heard the name podcast somewhere.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know what the fuck it was.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then we just like sat down in your house, like at the table and,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_02: like had some beer and it was like ridiculously hot, I think.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we just, you know, sat there and just, you know, talked for a little while.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Oh, that's kind of cool.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I never thought like to do it myself until a few years ago.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: But what, what have you learned in this like 10 years?
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like you've kept it, you stuck with it.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_02: Columbia calling podcast about the podcast about Columbia in English.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: It had to be,
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Probably one of the first podcasts from Columbia.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's just been one of those things.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't get me wrong.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: There are peaks and troughs when I want to just throw in the towel.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it just keeps going.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: And like next week will be episode 527.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's what I love.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: is that it's innately social.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I love about it.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I try and do it in a very conversational sense,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: not unlike what you're doing here,
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: so that the people think that they're drinking a coffee or a beer with us,
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: those who are listening.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously I talk about the bad things in Columbia and I talk about the good things, uh, in Columbia.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I often quote, and I forget his name.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: There was a war photographer in El Salvador who was killed,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: but he always said,
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: if you do a bad thing,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to take a photograph of you.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do a good thing, I'm going to take a photograph of you.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: So make sure you do a good thing.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how I sort of approached the podcast.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just enjoy, I really enjoy it.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_01: What I've learned is that I will never stop learning about Columbia.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been absolute pleasure to have,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: a co-host on as well,
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Emily,
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: who comes from a very solid journalism background.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_01: She writes for the New York Times, the Times and so on.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_01: And she's brought in a new understanding and does the news reports,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: the Columbia briefing,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's called.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: uh, every week.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's helped massively because it sort of injected new life into it.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: I,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: there are weeks where people flake out and don't,
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_01: don't turn up for interviews happened yesterday.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you're just like, God, you know, this is, this is too much work for no reward.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, it's kind of like a big, and I, and I, uh,
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: don't often like admitting it, but it's like a big branding, isn't it?
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's the big thing is I get people to come to MomBoss.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_01: I get people to read articles.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I get people to ask me questions,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: in the social media or privately about Colombia that they wouldn't ordinarily ask.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's always been an underlying desire.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote...
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: to the Australian Times and Sunday Times,
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: actually a few days ago,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: because they just did a podcast called Cocaine Incorporated.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it starts in Colombia and it's got everything about it.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote to them because they've got a final episode, which is a questions and answers episode.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I introduced myself.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know, I spend a good 90% of my...
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: My Waking Life, trying to explain some of the complexities in Colombia.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you've done a seven episode or eight episode podcast focusing on obviously
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: cocaine starting and its process in Colombia.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then going into it,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: for me,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: what was more interesting was through the UK and then cash and gold smuggling to
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Dubai and the United Emirates.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that was far more interesting than the old
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: hackneyed story about what's going on in Colombia.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I wrote to them saying,
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: it would have done everyone a greater favor to explain better some of the
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: complexities as to why the cocaine trade continues at such a rate,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: rather than focusing on,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: age-old cliches of Pablo Escobar,
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: age-old cliches.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think with the podcast, there is an undercurrent at all times.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is not me shouting from the rooftops that it doesn't exist, but there is so much more here.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can get messaging out without being a pro-Columbia brochure,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we are the happiest country in the world and we have the most this and the most that.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think of the underlying.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's so exciting to me,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: to get someone on who wants to talk politics,
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_01: philosophy and food like Juliana or to have someone else who's last week,
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: is my friend who's from the NASA indigenous people in Kauka talking about how his
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: families are affected in the coffee growing region there.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: because of this rise, but we're taking coffee.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about coffee, but there's real issues in Cauca.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's just a question of trying to tell more,
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: but at the same time,
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: it's tough because the image of Colombia,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to take generations to change.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think at the end of it, to talk to someone like...
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: god this is embarrassing i forget his name but the the the the number one ballet
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: dancer for the english national ballet uh the from the pacific coast it's just it's
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: just escaped me at this moment but to talk to him in his house in london and to see
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: how his his life has gone is to celebrate colombia and to celebrate what's
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: what can be found here.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so I say,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: there are,
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: there are the podcasts I've been described as like the,
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_01: the OG of podcasters,
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: which makes me feel very old as an original gangster,
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: but I didn't ever feel like I was doing anything new.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I didn't really listen to podcasts beforehand and then just sort of fell into it.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: And, and it just keeps going.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: And, and like, I hope to line up for two for next week, the guy who,
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it's in Brooklyn,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: who did the documentary on petrol during the elections,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_01: the president.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I just think it would be so interesting to talk about this.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: And there'll be people who hate it because that's the way politics is globally now.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's no debate.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't it great that we could perhaps open a debate and open a conversation?
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's at the end,
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: maybe I'm being too,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: pinko lily livered and naive about it all,
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: but surely,
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm getting more than a thousand downloads a week for each new,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: each new episode.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course it drops off, but there's people listening.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that the Colombian diaspora a lot now listens, uh,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: Not in Florida, but in other parts of the US, they do listen.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's an exciting thing and it does lead to other work.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Fernando Montaño.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's the one.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Really nice guy.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: It would have killed me.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask before you, or maybe because you're going to tell us about the publishing house.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_00: how you connect all these,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: because these are ways for you to connect with people,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: as you were saying,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: creating community,
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_00: but also trying to show a more complex picture of a place,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_00: whatever that place is,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: as reality is,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: complex,
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: not basic and simple.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I was curious about the writing part of it.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, Nick was asking you about the publishing houses.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_00: what the writing part of it adds and how you channel that information included the
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: entrepreneurship information uh in all that because yeah what motivates you to do
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: to keep doing that too well
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: One of these things will start to pay off.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Let's put it that way.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: I keep thinking that as well.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Motivation is my children.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: But no, I just love having projects.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I just, I have to sink my teeth into things.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not very good at working for other people, which I've learned on several occasions.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: Confirmed.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had a job in the Alcaldía de Bogotá.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was 12 days under Petro.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had a job.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: at one of those risk companies.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I just lasted out the two months trial period.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_01: So my longest jobs are ones that I do myself.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the motivation is just to keep going.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoy what I do, despite the significantly...
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_01: Low return.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: The publishing house came about in pandemic, like so many other things.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: We had been stuck in our apartment in Bogota for 105 days.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that because I was crossing off each day on the calendar.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: It was like jail time because it was quite draconian here.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we were applying for permission to get back up to Mampos because there,
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: at very least,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: it was a lot more sort of...
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: relaxed because there's distance and we could go from one colonial house to another
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: colonial house and always be outside and my kids could be on their scooters and so on.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it took a long time to get that permission.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then we weren't allowed to stop on the way either, you know, driving up.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, I digress.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_01: The publishing houses, we sat down.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the hotels are failing.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Journalism is based or the stories are largely based out of Europe and North America.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what's happening in the rest of the world is very difficult for me to sell.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that's dropping off as well.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really...
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: doing very little.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we start deciding, well, it's not about earning money.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's about also doing what's something you're passionate about.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I studied literature as a kid.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then I studied foreign literature.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: And when I did my doctorate here in Bogota, a lot of it was history and literature based.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that was it.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: now it's like an extension of what I've been doing with the podcast is,
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_01: let's build on this.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that there have been people who've written things that have been excellent.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I obviously,
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: I do think there's a dearth of English language books about Columbia that aren't
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: the obvious books that we all know about.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I just sort of thought, you know, I
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was writing my own experiences in Montbos,
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: which should be finished by before the end of the summer.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought,
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: rather than trying to,
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've been trying and pitching this and books to editorial companies and publishing
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: houses in the UK and the US with no success.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: So screw them.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get these out there,
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: but I'm going to also make my own publishing company so it's not just a vanity project,
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: but to also publish other books,
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: hopefully about Colombia and hopefully about the region.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: I would love some books or something in English about Venezuela right now.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be... There's nothing.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would explain so much from someone on the ground talking about
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_01: know the lack of income the lack of food what's going on in the propaganda and so
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: on i think it would be phenomenal and it's it's been a you know turbulent few years
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: in latin america there needs to be uh stuff out there so i've got the first book we
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: did was actually a spanish book for kids because i just wanted to get out there and
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_01: it was called it is called el año viejo and i did have a copy here um
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a picture book for about six and seven year olds.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: And my stepmother, who is a professional artist, did the artwork.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Carolina Uribe wrote the book.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: She already had a book deal with a publishing house here,
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_01: but they were going to do the imagery in a manga style.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know how you do New Year's Eve celebrations in Colombia in manga style,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: running around the block with your suitcases and wearing yellow pants because you
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: want to be wealthy and all these things.
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was much more infantile.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, it sold very, very well here in Colombia.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: A Spanish language book.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next one, of course, which Juliana has a copy of.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if she's finished it,
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: but it's called Better Than Cocaine,
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: Learning to Grow Coffee and Live in Colombia by Barry Maxwell,
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: who's an Australian.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: And with his Colombian partner,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: Adriano,
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_01: they bought a coffee farm site unseen in Anserma Caldas from London.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_01: And that was 12, 14 years ago.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: And Barry has been a copywriter and a script writer for movies.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: He's worked with Jeremy Irons and other people way back in the day.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_01: And his writing is very, very entertaining.
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I have it here just in case.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: And Adriano, his partner, did the artwork.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously the title is not well received by Colombians, but it catches the eye of English speakers.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where they pick it up.
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: But on the first page, it's dispelled, the whole thing about cocaine.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: The issue was...
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: you've bought what?
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then Barry responds, a plantation in Columbia.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever for, darling?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're not going to go off and live there, are you?
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, not for now anyway.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what are you going to grow?
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: Cocaine?
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, that puts that to bed straight away.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to look at that first page in Columbia's
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_01: don't get past the cover.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I can understand.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can understand.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: But the whole book is really a celebration and a very ethnographic and personal,
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's a memoir of living in Colombia.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's doing well.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's doing well.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm in conversations with a publishing house in London and maybe one in
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_01: Australia where Barry is originally from.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: So reprints.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, all things are moving forwards.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: These things take time.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_01: uh barry would like uh russell crowe to play him in the movie and he'd like adriano
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_01: his partner to be played by um uh diego luna i think so we will see we will see all
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: right uh and you have a book as well yes right it's in the final phases and it's
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_01: called the mompos project
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I thought you had another one.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, the other one is, yeah, yeah, the Columbiana Crossroads.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that one, because it's at the printers at the moment here, I've forgotten about it.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: The Columbiana Crossroads, a historical and social biography.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_01: It is not a guidebook.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: It is not an academic book.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: I've had gifted essays by some experts.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_01: André Gómez Suárez,
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: who is one of the top academics in peace for Colombia,
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: but lives in England,
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_01: put an essay in there.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's got...
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_01: doctorate from various places.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: He put an essay in about the Peace Accords,
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_01: an expert in economics,
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: a professor at another university also donated an essay and a few of my own essays.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it was an idea of actually a bit more focusing on Colombia's history,
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_01: focusing on society and culture.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: and and yeah and getting it out there because when i was doing the rounds of the
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: bookshops here in bogota pitching the books to say listen would you like them and
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_01: actually the majority said yes i was at the fondo de cultura economica so the
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: mexican owned uh chain
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_01: in downtown Bogota and they said,
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: listen,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: what we really need and what every day someone is asking for a book in English
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_01: about Colombian history and Colombian politics.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I wrote it.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_01: But I think really I'd been writing it for a decade because I've been collecting
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: information and studying and so on.
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, there'll be many things that aren't,
• 1:09:18
  SPEAKER_01: It is, you know, subjective.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_01: Of course it is.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's doing well.
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_01: We got a really beautiful review from the Latin American Review of Books.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that was nice.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the print copy should be ready in Colombia within a week or so.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll be going down and showing it places to try and make some more money.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: Or some.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy I mentioned,
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: Andre Gomez Suarez,
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: has written his memoir in English of growing up in Pasto in the 90s and his parents
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_01: being militant members of the Union Patriotica.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they were high level ones.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so Andre grows up seeing this in his house and people of high rank...
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: like Efraín Cepeda and Aida Avello and all these people who end up then being
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: assassinated and how it affects his upbringing.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an amazing read explaining
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 1:10:33
  SPEAKER_01: a bit more about the southwest of Colombia,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Pasto,
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Nariño,
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: a political chapter unknown outside of Colombia.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It really is unknown, the Unión Patriótica.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, yep, we'll be getting that out for the book fair next year.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_01: So onwards and upwards.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's exciting.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's exciting.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like my wife says, you have to contribute.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not contributing somehow...
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I hide in my office here and it sounds like I'm working.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, man.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Julie, is there anything else you wanted to talk about?
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, no.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm looking forward to this other book and we'll talk because I have to go to work soon.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my one.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_00: The Mom Post Project.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_02: So that's like... It's just like your life in the town.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it... Ghosts.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: The ghosts, the paramilitaries, the politicians, the family, the witchcraft.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've got everything in there.
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's hard to believe when I read through it.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: But I've taken other books and I've tried to put it into context as well with
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_01: what's going on in the country.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_01: At that time,
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: and also I found all of the old diaries of people who used to travel in the 1800s
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_01: along the rivers.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, you've got Englishmen, Brits, Americans, and they were all educated to write diaries.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And they're the most beautiful things to read.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Although when you read about the British Legion and these Scots,
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_01: they were always shooting the birds from the boat.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_01: They're going, oh yeah, I killed the most wonderful bird.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: It was gray and blue and had plumes, not great eating.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you see, Montpost was so pivotal and important on the river that it had an American consulate.
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 1:12:35
  SPEAKER_01: At that time.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: And an American and a Brit were both jailed for having an opinion on local politics.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about 1890 or 1900.
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_01: They were jailed.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the American ambassador and the consulate in Bogota got involved and got the American out.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Whittaker was his name,
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: but the Brits didn't get involved in his,
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: and their subject died in the prison in Mompos.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And curiously, the original cemetery is probably at the end of my house.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So he might well be buried there where you and I spoke.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: All those years ago.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going to have a release event?
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite an expensive one.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite an expensive thing.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So if I do it, it might just be in my apartment.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: There'll be plenty of wine and beer.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Are you coming back then?
• 1:13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Will you be back soon?
• 1:13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I'll tell you about it.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I have to be in different cities because of work, but I'll be in Bogota for some days.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh, well, someone else is going to, I don't know if that person wants to say something.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_01: Eventually.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think so.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, I'm, I'm here.
• 1:14:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going anywhere quite obviously.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Are you not, are you not, are you okay?
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, not leaving Colombia.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_01: I will go to Mompos for a few weeks, but I'm not leaving Colombia.
• 1:14:17
  SPEAKER_01: We'll talk.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're a lifer, man.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Look, you see the gray hair?
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_02: Richard, it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you are contributing.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Of course you are.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real pleasure.
• 1:14:39
  SPEAKER_01: I like to talk.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Could you tell?
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: As a Colombian,
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_00: but also as someone that understands,
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: what the struggling with projects you believe in is and Nick too.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for that too.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_01: No, you guys are, you guys are awesome.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I, I think.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still immensely grateful to Nick for the piece in the New York Times,
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_01: which we have framed on the wall.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_02: I need to come see it.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I want to come back.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's yellow in a bit, but it's there on the wall.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Legendary by now.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was anthologized.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I have the book.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I have the book in the New York Times, like travel stories.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that, yeah.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: I have the book.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so...
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully that ages better.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_01: But no, I mean, that really for a U.S.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_01: market put us on the map.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it really did.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_02: So we started getting... No, as I said, it's one of my favorite stories.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was just like...
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: it just kind of like hit all the right notes.
• 1:15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it like, and Garcia Marquez died, like I think right before it was published.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_01: It was around that, wasn't it?
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_02: So they were like, yeah, just the timing of everything.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's been 10 years.
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was 2014 when he died.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think the story came out after, but he was still alive when I visited.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_02: All right, man.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, we could talk all day.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you both.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you are in Bogota, look me up.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I live in this well-heeled neighborhood near Tijuliana.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: We'll talk soon.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much again.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, everyone, for listening.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed that interview with Richard McCall, the journalist, hotelier, and publisher now.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_02: A big thank you to Pat Buzzard for providing the music to the show.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Find out more about Pat at patbuzzard.com.
• 1:16:43
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• 1:16:45
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• 1:16:49
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• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Every little bit helps.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_02: See everyone soon.