Latest / The Mentor Sessions / The Mentor Sessions | The Cost of Being Seen But Not Heard
Transcript
- BigMike: With ⁓ Denis and ⁓ we'll get to hear his story a little bit and we'll ask him questions about those in his life that have helped him through his ⁓ through his trials and struggles. ⁓ and his and his ⁓ what got him to where he's at today. Denny d or excuse me, Denis, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself? Dene: Okay, so ⁓ I'm fifty eight years old, I live in Melbourne, Australia. I my childhood was pretty traumatic traumatic. ⁓ I had a bi very bad bipolar mother who basically I only saw it in her heights of mania. ⁓ alcoholic well semi-alcoholic father, very much a compulsive gambler. So as a child I couldn't rely on them. ⁓ I basically, even though I have siblings and didn't with my borderline I have b borderline personality disorder which was diagnosed about eight years ago, which makes sense when I look back. But so as a child I can I can't picture my siblings. I just picture me and my mother. That's the only memories I have. Like there was times where there was times where my mother was in such a height of mania and I was like eleven years old, I hit my mother with a frying pan. it would like ⁓ who does that leaves a child that situation. I j it just got ⁓ that much, I was pushed to brink. and then ever since ⁓ in my life I've just been carers people. my mother was in such a height of mania and I was like eleven years old, I hit my mother with a frying pan. I just it was like I couldn't it would like who does that leaves a child in that situation. I j it just got that much, I was pushed to the brink. ⁓ and then ever since in my life I've just been carers for people. I put I I put myself last all the time. I'm starting to change that now. I put I I put myself last all the time. I'm starting to change that now. with so basically as a child, So that was my childhood. When I I I came out as gay at about seventeen years old, but because of all the anger inside of me, because I didn't get my childhood, it was basically used as ammunition. It's like stuff you I'm gay. So I didn't really come out in the in the sense of the word and I'm not sure even today whether I accept accept at all. ⁓ There was also some sexual abuse, but unfortunately with my borderline, my memory just wipes. So now when I say it and I can't remember it, can't remember it, and especially borderline, people say rafter attention, I try and think, ⁓ did I just make it up for a story? But it's been a story all my life, but I've just forgotten the parts now. So that makes it difficult. ⁓ so after leaving well, just shortly relieving h before leaving home, I ended up a compulsive gambler like my father. and they threw me out of home. I ended up living with my grandmother and I was just angry. So I ended up stealing off my grandmother. She forgave me, it was her siblings that didn't. ⁓ and it ended up that I end spent ⁓ months in jail. ⁓ and believe it or not, ⁓ this is my pair my father for you. When I got out of jail, he wanted to take me to the RSL club to go gamble. It's like, okay. Then shortly after that, I just moved away. I moved into Sydney, into the gay scene. ⁓ in those days it was very drug orientated people partying and stuff like that. I got in a bit of that. ⁓ never really got addicted, which I don't understand. I do have an addictive personality so I don't understand why I got addicted to drugs. ⁓ so shortly ⁓ after that ⁓ I would say now that I look at it, I ran away. I ended up going on a holiday in Canada and met someone and didn't come back. Well I eventually came back, so I ended up getting married. it wasn't right for me. ⁓ what I've learnt throughout the years is I am attracting what I grew up with, so I attract a lot of ⁓ mentally ill people. And though I can handle it in small bits, it gets too much for me. But so that marriage didn't last because that person's very bad pol bipolar bi bad bipolar as well. I had a lot of s ⁓ success while I was overseas in in employment and stuff. Stuff didn't really get to me. And then, ⁓ within two three years after being in Canada signs of what was going on in my head started to come up. ⁓ more prevalently. Though if I rem like it was certainly there in my twenties because I always thought, well people can't are not understanding what I'm saying and when they didn't understand I'd get upset and then I'll try to fix it and it'll just get worse. So I traveled ⁓ from Canada to New Zealand and I swore that I would never come back to Australia. But what I learnt from that journey is though I was running away I needed that because I learnt a lot of things while I was away. And now back in Australia, I know that I need to be here. So ⁓ when I was diagnosed with borderline, it sort of made sense. With borderline personality disorder, it's ⁓ very much we just feel things a lot deeper and harder and stuff like that. So but the issue with me is because I ran ran my life was around labels. I had bipolar mother, alcohol alcoholic father, schizophrenic auntie, ⁓ bipolar ⁓ grandmother, my sister ended up bipolar. And so without a label, I didn't understand. But even when I have the borderline label, ⁓ I'm in a majority it sorry, in a minority, I don't have the depression. Whether it's ⁓ a defence mechanism with inside me that I don't go too far there because I'm scared that I'd end up like my mother, I don't know. But yeah, it I suppose I have a lot of insight and it's it's helped me along. BigMike: Sorry, I was unmuting my mic ⁓ after listening to to all that and trying to take it all in. ⁓ growing up, you talked about how Dene: That's it. BigMike: I the only word I can really use is just how unstable it was at at home. You know, with your your mom and her mania, your your dad and his ⁓ addictions, ⁓ gambling, alcoholism. Who And maybe this might be a hard question for you to answer because you ⁓ all the all the stuff and the trauma trying to block that trauma out, but who did you rely on to like kinda help raise you since you weren't getting that kind of ⁓ support at home? Dene: Myself. I learned to so self soothe. Yeah, it was just me. Even though I had s as I said, I've had si I have siblings. I have two older brothers and a younger sister. My sister became so basically in the f in the female side of my family until my sister had children, the mental illness was in the like the bipolar was in the women's side of my family until she had kids. But BigMike: Yeah. Dene: They're the type of siblings that they don't talk about their problems. So when I started talking, they didn't want to know me. I've always been I've always been an open book. they never believed they always said, no, you weren't sexually assaulted and stuff like this, but I know it happened. ⁓ there were situations that, ⁓ yeah. I still have a l a few flashbacks and it doesn't make sense that ⁓ a child would push themselves ⁓ against a man in a sexual manner at the age of five. You don't get that from nowhere, so yeah, it's like but ⁓ I always thought it was my father, but because of my memory, I now say I don't know. I just say I know it happened because out of respect for him I don't I really don't know, but yeah. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah it was it was just hard. I just learned to sell soothe it what there wasn't anybody for me. And one of the major things with the major thing in my ⁓ borderline is trust. But it's very strange on how my trust goes, but it does make sense in a way. Most borderlines don't trust people straight away. I trust people straight away. But the more I get to know them and they get closer to me, the the less the trust goes. And that's probably 'cause of my parents. Because the people that I wanted to trust let me down. If that makes sense. BigMike: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense because when not having someone to trust ⁓ you know, our parents are supposed to be the ones that we trust first and foremost. And when we don't have those ⁓ figures in our life a as kids and ⁓ we we're looking for that replacement. And you know, when we're looking for that replacement there it it allows us to We'll search anywhere, you know, and we'll latch on to anyone who will give us that that trust. And I I venture to guess that that's probably why ⁓ the abuse you suffered, which first and foremost, let me ⁓ just empathize with you, that's that's horrible stuff, ⁓ especially at such a young age. And when those that you try to ⁓ try to trust and then they they destroy it in such a horrible, horrible manner. ⁓ there's hardly any recovering fr from that, I could imagine. So ⁓ No, go ahead, go ahead. Dene: Well yeah. Go ahead, Ty. What I was gonna say is I'm not angry at anyone. I'm I've always been a believer that pain changes people for the better. ⁓ because you see like things that happen in people's lives and they suffer tragedy and it changes them they're more open and more into mentorship and stuff like this because they it's like a learning thing. So I've taken my pain and I've learned from it and I've made myself a better person. I don't blame anyone. I ac when it comes to borderline, I don't want to be fixed. Because especially with the ⁓ with the how we love deep and we feel deeper than other people, I think with a little bit more understanding would be fine. All I want is to be heard, yeah. BigMike: Well yeah, wanting to be heard I yeah, I heard and seen I I could imagine, and especially since you were never or y you felt like you weren't heard and seen as a as a child. ⁓ Dene: Yeah. BigMike: ⁓ but I just I just want to say I'm I'm just kinda beside myself 'cause that whole experience growing up, your siblings not seeing you, your your siblings not being there for you, your your parents obviously weren't. They were in and out of your life, more or less. ⁓ But like I was saying, it it it's interesting how ⁓ you go from Just wanting you'll trust anyone right off the bat until all of a sudden do you do you give them the opportunity to prove that you can't trust them or you just over time start feeling like, ⁓ I did it again? Dene: It's just like when when they when they get when I get closer to them, because I felt that I need I I suppose as a child you d feel that you need to be close to your parents. So anyone that gets closer to me, the trust goes. Put it this way, I only have one person in my life that I probably trust, let's say ninety-five percent, who's my ex-partner, who I live with and be living with like ten years. He basically gave me access to everything. So I can not that I do it now because I don't need to, but I'd have access to his his emails, his his bank accounts, everything. So nothing was ever hidden from me. Because when it the only the only ⁓ time as I said I saw my mother was only in mania. I couldn't trust anything that was going on because all that ch She was well, at that time I thought it was normal. That makes sense. BigMike: Yeah, that yeah, that makes sense. That's how you thought people behaved. You know, we we we grow Dene: Yeah, and yeah. BigMike: ⁓ I remember as ⁓ a child, ⁓ it seemed like all my friends, their parents were divorced, so I couldn't figure out why my parents weren't divorced. I thought that's just something that happened, that there comes a point where you you get weekends with dad and and ⁓ you know, you live with mom ⁓ and ⁓ thankfully, ⁓ my parents ⁓ They were married for fifty-five years. My mother passed ⁓ shortly after their fifty-fifth anniversary. ⁓ and and they made it work. ⁓ so as you were growing up like that, and that's what you were seeing, when you were going out into the world and you were in your your s your going to school and associating with other kids that were outside of the your world. Did you see that as like a a safety or or how did you how did you view that? Dene: ⁓ no no no no no no not at all. ⁓ where I went to school was pretty local. So kids lived next door. My mother was this bad that she would go outside naked, run up trees, yeah, do really, really weird things. There was one stage she ran in the backyard with a clown mask on, running around with a knife. That's how bad my mum was. So at school, I got picked on. I got picked on quite a lot, your mother's crazy, but your mother's crazy. But I did actually have something to go good to go back on. My mother had a love of Elvis Presley and she used to wake us up in the middle of night on a school night playing records in the garage, having your own party. So anybody that teased me, I said, You didn't get to stay out last night, I got to listen to music all night. So I so I used that, but as soon as I could leave school, I was ⁓ in Australia, you can if your parents give you commission permission, you can leave school at fourteen or nine months, so I was out of there. School was not a good place at all. BigMike: ⁓ man. And and how are the the teachers and and the school staff with what you were dealing with? Dene: Oookay. My name Du Bois ⁓ in Australia they send to tend to say Du Boys, the uneducated people. And my legal name, I I spell it D E N E, but it's actually spelt like Dennis. I got from when I was knee-high to a grass grasshopper, I also got teased saying Dennis likes Du Boys. So I had my mother, as well as being picked on that I was gay before I knew was gay. So I had that and these were like eight and nine-year-olds that were saying that to me. It's like BigMike: Yeah. Dene: Where these kids get these sort of things from is unbelievable. So I had a horrible time at school. I used to I wanted to learn. I used to wag and what we call like not go to school, we call that in Australia to wag school and I'd go to the library. BigMike: And what kind of stuff would you learn in the library that maybe helped you cope? Dene: Well ⁓ I can't I can't remember. I just remember that that's what I'd done. I can't remember when I pictured I can't remember being in the library. I just knew that's what I'd done. Because I didn't have friends to go to, I couldn't go home, so that was my probably my safe place. But yeah, I don't actually remember what I'd done at the library. I just know I went there. BigMike: So we're gonna fast forward. I You know, the fun thing about doing this and and we talked a little bit, this is still new for me, and I'm learning so much about like whole different people that coming from the bubble I come from, and you know coming from my background in law enforcement, I've seen troubled lives and stuff like that and and and I know people have suffered ⁓ and so it's so interesting trying to picture your bubble, picture ⁓ what you Dene: Yeah. BigMike: you unfortunately had to go through. so y you you got out of school at fourteen and did you work until you went to Sydney or? Dene: No, I was basically ⁓ I I'd done some paper routes because I couldn't really my first major job was actually my father was a chef in a hospital and I worked as a kitchen hand at at the hospital he worked at. BigMike: So what was that like with your father in those settings? Dene: Mmm, it was okay. It was okay. We just didn't really have a good relationship anyway, because as a child being left with my mother all the time while he was laying down drunk, he he wasn't I don't believe at that time, I think he was laying off the drink and his gambling got a bit better. I think my from what I have surmised from meeting my father be before he passed away, I believe that he had borderline as well. Yeah. Yeah. BigMike: Well and I don't know and I'm I'm definitely not qualified to make these kind of things, but I wonder if that was kind of how he ⁓ started coping with dealing with ⁓ trying to be your mom's caretaker. And obviously obviously he wasn't a a a a suitable caretaker, but ⁓ so y at what age did you leave Dene: Yeah. BigMike: Leave your parents home and go up to Sydney. Dene: ⁓ about eighteen, nineteen. BigMike: And what was that experience like for you? Dene: Yeah, that that experience I was a social butterfly. I don't know where 'cause I'm nervous to go out like go out to gay venues and stuff. I'm absolutely I'm I'm nervous around men. Give me a a room from a w woman, I'm great. I can talk and this is actually since podcasting I've been more comfortable with men. Which has been really interesting because yeah, it's it's something that I ⁓ yeah, it's It it's weird. It's weird. It's just seems everything's coming coming to a place now. Like I said, I didn't never want to come back to Australia, but now I've learnt I can't go anywhere else at the moment. I have things to do before I make I need to make my place in the world before I move on anywhere else. BigMike: Tell me about that. Dene: Well, okay, so I've been working on and off when I came back to Australia I was working jobs lasting a couple of months. ⁓ I don't know why I ended up into functional places. ⁓ I'd have e put it this way, I had one a place I was working at, a C Ao CEO rang me at one AM in the morning drunk. It's like, what places am I working for? And it just seemed I kept on getting into these places. So I ended up about ⁓ BigMike: D if I can if I can interrupt, do you mind helping ⁓ myself and the audience, especially those in the States, ⁓ understand what a CAO is? CEO. ⁓ CEO, okay. Okay, I gotcha, I gotcha. Yeah. I in fact, ⁓ off topic a little bit, I was just thinking, I'm gonna have to have like the ⁓ American to Australian ⁓ trans subtitles going on underneath, you know, 'cause Dene: Yeah. C E O. Yes, it must be my accent. ⁓ BigMike: Some some of it I'm catching, some of it I'm I'm I'm trying to figure out as I go, but yeah, it's it's it's fun for me and ⁓ and stuff. So go ahead, you had a CEO call yet, like one in the morning. Dene: No Yeah, yeah, one in the morning, just going on about stuff and it's like yeah, I I just kept on attracting those jobs. So of course the trust the trust went the trust went. So the last job that I was in was probably now three years ago. It actually ended up in a discrimination case. and I never worked again after that. But basically it was which is It was my dream job. I was going to I was helping people with disabilities get employment. and yeah, it just ended up in a discrimination case due to the legal requirements that were mentioned afterwards. I can't really say much more than that. But yeah, so I went into a bit of as I said, I really don't get depressed, but I sort of went in a yeah. BigMike: No, of course. Dene: s sad for me space and really didn't do anything, just watch television at home. Then I decided I was gonna go on Facebook and have a look at borderline personality disorder groups and try to give some connection. And I noticed something. I was watching people chat and there were people who would put up stories and then people would attack them and I'm thinking, hang on, this is a support group. And so I thought about it as thinking, okay, so these people are saying stuff that are triggering something in their trauma and creating an action, a reaction online. So these people that were speaking up before are now being silenced because they're scared to speak up. So now I'm gonna go back. About 10 years ago, I visited a shop in in New York called The Strangers Project. Amazing. I basically walked out of that shop, my face was wet from tears. So it was a sh have you ever heard of The Strangers Project? BigMike: No, why don't you tell us a little bit about it? Dene: Okay, so it's actually a shop just with letters on the wall. So letters that ⁓ of lost love, ⁓ of thanks, of gratitude, everything. So basically they're not going to the recipient anymore. The general public are reading them. So you can imagine how powerful that is. So I didn't I didn't even think that that would lead to now and then I thought, hang on. Borderline is probably one of the most misunderstood things and it causes people to not say anything because I even I notice in the groups people are calling them, calling themselves the names that the general public are calling them. Like they're crazy, they're uncaring, they're unlovable. So many things. Like in Australia, you can go to a psychologist and tell them you're borderline, we can't help you. You need to find someone else. That's how bad it is. So I thought, what a great book idea for have those people to have their say in a book format so they're not being attacked. And it has been incredible. So I started this basically five weeks ago. I looked at my statistics on Facebook. couple of nights ago. In twenty eight days I've had twenty three thousand viewers on my page. I've now got three hundred and seventy followers. ⁓ I've got probably a hundred and sixty pages in a book so far. And I've been approached by Force magazine which is in thirteen countries. They're going to do an article in August on it. It's disappo It's just blowing my mind, but also with my trust issues, even though I see it, I need to like hold it if it makes sense. BigMike: No, that that makes a lot of sense. You see it but you're still you you don't believe it or I'm sure you kinda feel like the the bottom's gonna fall out at any second. Dene: Yeah, yeah, 'cause I've even had I even even the other day I had someone come onto my page and like to rate my page and telling me that I stolen things. I'm thinking, hang on, I haven't stolen anything because I use a lot of AI. You can't you can't if I get the colours off AI, you can't say I stole your colours and people saying that I use their nut No, no, no, no. So that that was only a couple of days ago and I had to do the block block block block block, but it still sits in the back of my mind have I Done something wrong, but I know I haven't. Like I ⁓ the I don't know where I've got this wrong. But I have so much insight that has kept me surviving. So all my life I've just survived. Now with this, I get up in the morning, I check my computer, I'm alive. Where's the next letter? Give me, give me, give me, give me. And so many people are saying, thanks, we needed this, we needed this, we needed this. So it's got I reckon it's gonna make a big change. But the only problem is, and I'm once I get into the Force magazine. I need to get into Australian media because Aust Australia just doesn't seem to want to know. In the group, two percent are Australians and I haven't had one letter from an Australian. BigMike: What y you were talking about the ⁓ the Strangers project that you went to and that kinda helped open you up to doing this, ⁓ if I understand that correctly. Dene: Yeah. BigMike: As you're seeing these letters come into you, ⁓ that you're you're putting in book form, what are you are there common threads that you're seeing weave throughout them? Dene: Yeah, basically people ⁓ just wanna be heard. A lot, a lot, a lot of pain. So just so you are aware this book is raw, unfiltered. So I'll be honest with you, I even have a suicide letter in there. But it is so powerful, so powerful. And these people are just thanking me, thanking me every day, every day. They're just saying, thank you. I wanted to get this out there, but I'm sc I was scared of the backlash of it. So these people can do it, they can either put their name, they can put anonymous, doesn't matter. They're just having that opportunity to speak. BigMike: Speak and not be judged for you know, kinda kinda like you were explaining about when you try to talk in your siblings about the abuse you suffered and they're like, No, you didn't you know, you don't remember that and I'm sure that was probably a theme throughout your your whole life, if I could generalize like that, that as you were suffering this mania and stuff as a as a child, you didn't have anyone giving you Dene: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. BigMike: reassuring feedback coming back to you. So you're watching your mom in her mania, and then sh if you tried to express that to a teacher or someone in your life, may a family member or something, you didn't get that reassurance, that that voice hearing you back saying, I hear you. I'm here for you. I I I understand how this is hard. Dene: Yeah. Because basically we're we're borderline. All it is is when we ⁓ tr triggered by something, our child comes forward. So it's like when you're dealing with someone with borderline, the best the best thing I say to do is think of them as their a child, but talk to them like an adult. Because so many people talk about borderline with people that aren't borderline. Like I have not I have nothing against therapists, but I have been in and out of therapy. I'm fifty-eight years old. I think the first therapist I saw was when I was twenty. And though I'm sure I'd picked up some coping skills through it, I'm learning more from speaking to people who've lived experience. And they're telling me exactly the same. Because people don't people pe I don't think That therapists are are at the point that they actually really understand borderline. And I'm not talking about borderline with with people that have bipolar and all the other things on top of it. Yes, I understand that's a bit more complex. But straight borderline, I don't think they know what they're doing, really, to be honest. That's my opinion. I'm sure it's ⁓ some therapies work with other people, but in saying that, with my major trust issues. I don't trust that these people are gonna help as soon as I walk in. BigMike: Yeah. ⁓ what what kind of feedback are you getting not not now, but when you would go into a therapist and try to explain that to them. ⁓ how what kind of feedback were you getting and what were you wanting? Dene: Don they were sort of trying they understood because of my trust issues, but they just excuse me, I didn't realise that was stood up. Yep. ⁓ they yeah, it just got to the sorry it got to the point where I would just end up moving to the next therapist. Because it just seemed that they were talking about the same thing over and over and over again and it just wasn't hitting home with me. It just didn't seem like and also with me, and I don't know whether that's borderline because I haven't spoken to anyone that has that, I want the quick fix. I'll be honest, I'm lazy. I don't want to put in it's but it's interesting in saying that I'm lazy. And I and I say to my therapist, I said, so does that mean I don't want help? And they say, No, it doesn't mean that at all because you're showing up every time. You obviously want help. So it's like it's very contradictory in my head. It's like I'm saying, I'm coming here but I'm not getting the help. Yeah. It's confusing. BigMike: Well, I I I'll challenge you with this that I think that that wanting that instant that quick fix, that's the world we live in now. You know, ⁓ we've got medications to ⁓ fix everything quickly and and you know, sometimes they're a benefit and sometimes they're a hindrance to us. ⁓ being on, you know, some of those medications. And when you're dealing with ⁓ mental health issues, we want medication to make us and I say medication, I don't necessarily mean appeal, but we want to be fixed quickly. We don't want to live like we have been living for fifty eight years in your case. We want to feel better. We want to feel validated and we want to feel heard and and and when that's not coming quickly, especially in ⁓ our Dene: Yeah. BigMike: ⁓ what I call our our Amazon internet world, right? We get on the internet, we get the answers we've been searching for for a long time. You talked about going to the library. you're you're only a slightly a few years older than me. So we grew up in the library when we were doing the Dewey Decimal system to find books and and having t having to research answers. ⁓ but now you can hop on Google, you can hop on ChatGPT or whatever and get it all right now. you you can go on to Amazon and i i I had to get a new keyboard for my for my computer. ⁓ the one I had wasn't working and I got it overnight. You know, and sometimes and my wife and I we we joke about this that we you know, what what do you mean I have to wait twenty four hours, this should be able to be dropped off to me now. Where we grew up, remember like we had to if we wanted something Dene: Yeah. BigMike: you had to like send the send the postage in for it and then wait four to six weeks for it to show up. And and sometimes with mental health I think that that's what we want and and what do you mean I can't be fixed right now? and ⁓ so you go into doctors and you're trying to get that and it's not it's not there. And Dene: Yeah. BigMike: So I I don't know if lazy is the right word to put it. It's just when you've dealt with something the same way your whole life and you start developing those trust issues, and I think at a point maybe a a lack of trust in yourself, like this isn't working for me. It's I'm broken. I'm the one who's not doing it. I'm the one who can't get it, you know. I'm failing somewhere. But what there's still that desire to keep putting the work in to to get better, to heal. ⁓ you know, and and we're called the mentor sessions here. And I like to d discuss and and find those people that were there for us as that have helped teach us and coach us and and push us along the way. And it it sounds like for you that space was never filled. You know, and you had to It's like you said, you had to self soothe, you had to self cope. And ⁓ you know, I I'm sure ⁓ you have a lot of ⁓ I'll just I'll just call ⁓ imaginary personalities, for lack of a better way to put it, that have, you know, people inside your head that have trying to fill those void ⁓ for you and and help give you that. But now you're at a space where you're understanding who you are and you're more comfortable with you who you are. ⁓ you ⁓ you said something earlier that like when you brought up your your sexuality, you had a hard time like even coping or not coping, accepting that you were gay. And I find it ⁓ fascinating that ⁓ and I wish I had the the training experience to to do this. ⁓ you you had this ⁓ you want that love and affection and and you're you know, for you you're that attractions to men, but yet you don't trust men. You're not comfortable around men. Dene: I know. It's a it sucks. It sucks, man. It sucks. So like because I with my with the way I think I I do worry what and I do listen to what the general public say about things. So I tend to go towards that because that's like with my with my family, we BigMike: You know. Dene: We never associated with our with the outside of family like our family was just a one unit. My sister didn't my auntie didn't come round. Friends didn't come around. They didn't want to know my mother. We ba they but my mother and father basically only had two friends. That was it. That was it. BigMike: And I would I be fair in suspecting that those friends were also dealing with their own issues and their own psychoses, if you will? Dene: No. No, no. Well, no, no, no. I don't I actually don't this was someone that my father met when he was chefing and they'd been friends ever since. they actually ended up becoming Mormons. They actually live in New Zealand now and had like fourteen, fifteen kids. No, they they didn't have any issues at all. I know. They were actually on on a TV programme in New Zealand about the size of their family. BigMike: Yeah. Well it sounds like sounds like they probably could have used some cable TV or something, give them a distraction, but ⁓ now you're in this space where and and this goes back to the theme of our show, ⁓ the mentor sessions ⁓ when have you felt yourself taking on a role as a mentor, as someone who's can help Dene: Yeah. Yeah. BigMike: Those that struggle with the things you struggle with, accept who they are and and basically learn how to love themselves for what they're going through. Dene: Yeah. Yes, yes, because I I I want I want them to take the labels that they're putting on themselves. They're not a that that's not them. It's not them. You're just taking that from other people and I'm s so aware of that 'cause I've done it myself. But I'm learning I believe that some of the traits who borderline, especially the feeling so hard about things and loving so much and so much empathy, that's a superpower. If you have ⁓ understanding from the other person, that's a superpower. You shouldn't feel ashamed. I I actually apart from the trust issues, yes, I'd like them to go away. I don't think they will ever do that. They will probably lessen, but I don't want to lose my borderline. Not at all. I don't want to be fixed. BigMike: Tell me what that looks like when you're talking to someone because communication's so vast nowadays. What does that look like when when you're trying to explain this to ⁓ Dene: What explicit I d I just I I I tell I tell them, I say, so when you've been in a relationship trying to trying to think of a way to explain it. It's j I think the best way that I do it is through storytelling. I I let them just blurt it all out and then I go back to and I say, How did you feel in this situation? And what I found in most situations it was because of their trauma and I'm trying to teach them it's it's not your fault that you're affected. By something that someone says. Because people tend to, though we have to have accountability for what we do, we don't have to hate ourselves for what we do because we can't control it. We borderline, if you're affected by something like a particular word or an action that someone's done that's from your trauma, it's like you know, when they put a hammer on your knee to check your reflexes. That's how automatic it is. So Why hate yourself for that? You can't control that. Unless you're gonna hold your knee down while they're pressing it. But yeah, something it's like, yeah. So that's what I try and teach people. You you're not in control of it. Yes, there are consequences for your actions, but don't put yourself down because you're getting affected by your past trauma. BigMike: Yeah, th that's really interesting. You know, they're the reflexes to the trauma and I think sometimes it's hard when you're on the receiving end of that reflex to remember that the person you're dealing with is not trying to respond that way. They're responding that way because of those ex the feedback that they got. And I can imagine for you that had to have been very hard, ⁓ As you were on, for lack of a better way to put it, your journey of self discovery, trying to find out who you are, ⁓ you know, going to Canada, ⁓ getting in relationships and and trying these new jobs, you had this experience growing up where you were trying to learn how to trust someone and trying to learn how to ⁓ map people out and and basically like lit survive in the world. ⁓ But certain things, certain behaviors were just they would spin that reflex out of you and then trying to manip manage, like you said, you can't change what they're gonna say. You can't change what they're gonna do. But you can learning how to react and respond in a ⁓ an appropriate manner, I think is probably the best way to put it. Dene: Yeah. 'Cause that's why I said about think of it like it's a child. Because some of the reactions an adult will give to an adult you wouldn't necessarily give to a child. That's why I'm saying think of it as a child, but talk to them like they're an adult. 'Cause if you're talking to like a child you're only gonna aggravate the situation. But if you talk to them like an angry adult, you're going to aggravate the situation, if that makes sense. BigMike: Yeah, yeah. So talk to people and and this is just a basic human ⁓ understanding for me if you if you'd like. Talk to them with the compassion of an adult. You know, not not ⁓ being empathetic and not demeaning towards them and understanding how where they're coming from. ⁓ God, I have so many questions. I'm just trying to figure out which one, you know. ⁓ Dene: Yes. That's okay. BigMike: You talked about relationships in your life and and how you had a hard time coming to relationships and being in them. Was there anyone in your life as you were trying to build a relationship with them and a relationship of trust, if you will, that finally ⁓ you started hearing what they were saying? Does that make sense? Dene: No all well, apart from one person, ⁓ all the other relationshipships were not right for me. Very toxic. the only person and that was when it ended up in New Zealand I met someone and that's when the trust went really bad because after we fell in love, perfect relationship. ⁓ Yeah, we were like Cheech and Chong. It was amazing. But unfortunately, shortly before I met him, he had a world trip planned six months later. And as soon as he left, I felt abandoned, so I was messaging him constantly, constantly, constantly, constantly, and it just ruined it. Totally ruined it. And that's the only relationship that I actually miss, and it's really funny. ⁓ he's lived in New Zealand and I he's actually moved to Australia and I though he talks to me and we've hugged and said hello. We've never closed a door. One of the other things with me with communication, I can't have open doors. ⁓ like text messages. If you send me a text message and in the middle of it you just stop in mid conversation. I go straight to ⁓ you've abandoned me. ⁓ you hate me. That's how my brain automatically goes. So I ask pe I say to people if we're having a conversation and I think it's just common courtesy. ⁓ I'm busy, I'll come back later. I get that all the time and it just sends my brain into I'm being abandoned, I'm being abandoned, I'm being abandoned. BigMike: Yeah. I I can imagine how hard that is for you. You know, the I look at it as the gin the the beauty of a text conversation is you can be talking, yeah, and then all the s all of a sudden you get busy and you set the phone down and walk away. But there are times that I've been in conversations with people that I'm like I I never looked at it like open door, closed door. ⁓ because that that's that's a beautiful analogy that ⁓ hey, this conversation's done for now. I just look at it like, ⁓ it must be done, you know. But then there's sometimes and and I I like to tell this humorous anecdote about that where my wife and I were in a very serious disagreement, and I'm I'm the kind of person that if we're in a disagreement, I have to make sure you understand I'm right, blah, blah, blah. And and Dene: Ha ha ha. One of them, I get ya. BigMike: Yeah. And man, I I I had the closer. I had the closer. I was done. And I hadn't heard from her for hours and I'm like, ⁓ she's got nothing to say. She's got nothing to come back to with that. I I wanna and then I I finally got a text from her and I opened it up and that huge ⁓ probably three or four paragraph closer I had written, I never hit sand. So But Dene: Mm-hmm. Yeah. BigMike: But by that point that whole issue had gone, you know, we were and so that's why sometimes it's important to give it time to walk away, to let it just settle and and move on. Especially when, you know, in our case we we had to we were debating something with the kids. I'm sure she was venting about something that the teenagers had done that whatever we were disagreeing about at that time. had finally taken a back seat. You know, it didn't matter anymore. ⁓ so yeah. Tell me about the the book and and what's going on with the book and and things that you've learned about yourself writing this. Dene: Well, I do actually have an I I did publish a book. and it was basic so I've always wanted to be a writer because I knew I had a story in me. I have yeah. There's so many things I haven't told told you. that happened to me throughout the years. So it was actually in one of my splitting phases, someone upset me and I ended up going onto my chat GPT and just told them the whole story of my life and because I'm not a good typer and throughout the time I was doing it, I was thinking, okay, I'm gonna get this done, I'm gonna get this done. And part of my brain was going, Denis, you're cheating, you're cheating. This isn't a book, this isn't a book, this isn't a book. And my chat GPT kept on saying to me, but hang on. I can't make up a story for you. This is your story. I'm just helping you form it. So I'm looking at why he's doing it and going, No, I don't speak like that. I don't speak like that. So it probably took more than eight hours and me swearing at the computer and stuff. So I wrote a book basically called The Places I Didn't Belong. So that was the fact that I didn't belong in Canada, I didn't belong in New Zealand, I belonged straight back here. I wasn't ready for those travels, even though I learned stuff from it and I was probably meant to do that as I call running away from my problems to come back to realise I'm now where I need to belong. BigMike: Well To me I I use I kinda do stuff like that with ⁓ Chat GPT. ⁓ and I look at it as like a way of journaling to to flesh out the thoughts I'm trying to get out. ⁓ one of my favorite things to do is ⁓ I like to end the day with a a pour bourbon and a cigar and I like to journal it that way and write down what I'm experiencing and getting the feedback back because sometimes Dene: Yeah. BigMike: That's the nice thing about some sort of like electronic ar artificial intelligence journaling is you're getting that feedback response. ⁓ you know, helping you understand what's going on. So and it's interesting that you talked about the places you didn't belong and how you didn't ⁓ belong in Canada and and New Zealand. But and that you were running away from your problems and I think I guess I I'd agree that that's probably true, but they gave you also gave you a chance to s separate from them enough to to look back in. And does that make sense? Like Dene: Yeah. Yes, it does, it does, because I'm actually I'm in the process of gonna take a bit longer and I'm going to do another book. BigMike: You know, so Dene: And it yeah, it's gonna go like, Did I belong? BigMike: Yeah, 'cause I I th that's a great follow-up to it, you know, 'cause I think sometimes we get especially wh when we're in our troubles and when we're in our feelings, if you will. ⁓ that that's how my kids put it all the time. When they're talking to their to my grandkids, it's kinda cute. ⁓ when we're in those we don't have the opportunity to step back, especially when we ⁓ have a tendency to feel so big and and Dene: Yeah. BigMike: you you know, y some of the things you talk about, I I have to admit, I I kind of self ⁓ I I look at it and I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I'm like that too. You know, I I get big feelings and and my I'm kind of the reverse though. It takes a lot for me to trust people. And then once I do give them that trust and it's broken. Man, that that's what kills me is when that trust is broken. ⁓ because I I've invested so much in in opening up and letting letting you trust giving you that trust, you know. ⁓ and and it's very, very complex that way. But ⁓ when you're able to s pull yourself out and you know the only way I could describe it ⁓ is to have that out of body experience. You know, when when people are having out-of-body experiences and they talk about seeing themselves on the gurney and the doctors around them working and they're seeing everything going on around them. It's like that. When you're able to pull yourself out of that moment and look around you and see what's going on around you or what was going on around you, it allows you to recognize, ⁓ hey, I I do belong and I can go back there and I do have ⁓ a spot in that world. I I do have safety there. ⁓ what were some of the things that made you finally decide that you do belong in Australia? Dene: Because this is the first time that I've found meaning. So when I think when you say that and about being belong where I belong, I could have technically done this anywhere. Cause it's on a computer. So it's like but so yeah, that that's the reason I'm doing the other one. Cause yeah, ⁓ I used to have a blog called Contradictory because I contradict my thoughts contradict each other all the time. And when I ⁓ hear something or something happens, something else will come in and add on to the idea. My brain is constantly going, constantly. I've always got thoughts. And I don't know whether you've heard the I don't know whether they use that term over there, their earwig. BigMike: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I Yeah. So so just an aside here, for me the last couple of days it's been I saw her standing there by the Beatles and no matter what I've tried to do to get that earwig out, ⁓ I woke I woke up singing it this morning and I just and it's a great song, it's a nice ⁓ nice ⁓ bop to it, but Dene: Yeah, I have I have a song in my twenty-four seven. Doesn't go away. BigMike: I'm like I'm I'm ready for a new radio station in my head. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get that earwig Dene: Ha ha ha. I tried to do it I tried to do it in different songs but then the same tune happens, it's like, ⁓ my god, I'm changing music. BigMike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so but it's funny how you said you found your meaning. You know, going home, you found you have your meaning. and and you needed to go home. Do you think that in a way is to reconcile for not knowing your meaning for all these years? Dene: d yeah, I just think for the first time in fifty eight years I'm actually being heard. So that that so Like because I and comp my mind thinks of excuse the French, how the fuck did I do I have all this empathy and caring for people? Where did it come from? And I'm just gonna go back a little while, well I right back to my childhood. ⁓ because when I said that ⁓ before my father died of dementia, We were talking about things I was staying at his house overnight and he was and I was saying I don't understand where this has all come from and he said to me, he said, When you were five years old, you used to dress up as Santa and you sat on the front porch and the local kids would come around and you'd sit them on your lap and you'd have little gifts wrapped up for them. Like, where did that come from? I don't understand. I don't understand. It's like and I think the way I've survived, I'm starting to live now is because I have a lot. I have all this insight. Like, I've been through all this pain. I don't get ill. I haven't had a headache for like thirty odd years. I eat terrible. And it just does not I Up until about six months ago, every night was a nightmare for me. I had a nightmare every single night. I would only sleep five hours a night. And I don't know why I still look this good, but anyway. If you can't play if you can't ⁓ blow your own trumpet, who else can? Anyway. But yeah, I don't like BigMike: Ha ha ha ha. Yeah, right, right, right, right. Dene: I told you before that I d I find it difficult to believe in God. I do believe there's a higher power and I believe something is guiding me, but because of my trust is I will never trust it. Though in saying that, I am absolutely terrified of death and when I think about it, I sometimes look up and I say, Please forgive me for not believing in you. I don't want to go to hell. So I worry about the things that I've done bad in my life. But I can't trust enough to take it on. And I will I never will. Maybe on my deathbed it will happen, but it's just so many things I've never I've never gone without. And there would have been certain situations that I should have gone without. ⁓ I do panic when I think I'm gonna go without, and when I stop panicking, everything falls on my lap. Just like it comes to me. BigMike: I wonder if it's that when you're able to slow down and stop panicking, it those those things, those you know, maybe if it's finances, maybe it's food, maybe it's ⁓ finding a person or you know, whatever it is that you're panicking about, that was always there, but when we're in a moment of panic and and anxiety, we can't see that it's right there in front of us, yeah. ⁓ we it Dene: Yeah. BigMike: y you know, and I I mean I'd I'd see that in in in life and and d helping people when I was on in law enforcement. The stuff they're panicking about it's like you know i hey buddy we've got medical assistants right here. Like you're okay. Give us a moment. We're helping you. You might still be in physical pain right now or ⁓ That adrenaline dump is causing some some issues, but you're okay. But they can't they can't s again it's that they're so focused on what's right in front of them that they can't see what's going on around them. ⁓ you know, and I I I've seen that in my own life too, and that's why i That's why I'm very blessed to be who I am and have what I have and and that's not to say that people aren't blessed, but I have a an amazing wife that when I start panicking over little things, or vice versa, there's that person right there to say, Okay now, here it is right here. You know, we're and help us pull back and and zoom out. ⁓ unfortunately in in your life That only per that person was just you. You didn't have that that person. And and I think that's why it's important for you and I to have this conversation now on on this ⁓ in this format is to help people see that We have to have that s that connection with people. ⁓ but before we can have that connection with people, we've got to learn how to have that connection within ourselves. You know, you're you're you're now learning to connect with people outside through your writings, ⁓ through your your social media, what we'll which we'll get to here shortly. But it's only because now at fifty-eight you're starting to find connection within yourself. You know, like one thing a theme that I was so amazed by during this conversation is like I don't wanna be fixed. I like who I am now. How long did it take you to be able to say that about yourself, that like, hey, I I like who I am? Dene: Fifty years. Yeah. I won't say I don't know whether BigMike: Yeah. You know. Dene: hoping it comes. I don't think I love myself. I like who I am. I like I like the goodness in me. I don't well, I don't think any part of me is bad actually. When I think of it, I d yeah, I don't think any part of me is bad anymore. I used to think that but no. BigMike: Yeah, yeah. And you know, that that's what's important is that and that that goes to to my message and my theme about mentors. You are getting to a place where now you get to share that message with people and and help people who have gone through the trauma that you have, who grew up in homes without ⁓ stability, you know, their parents and and stuff like that. I I was I I recently was talking to a person who grew up on Skid Row in Los Angeles. Well, she didn't grow up there. She grew up in a nice home. She grew up in a family and then she f ended up on Skid Row. But now she's giving back to that community. ⁓ amazing story. But it took her to be able to find the confidence in herself to learn how to navigate the bureaucracy of of housing stability and going into school and and learning those kind of things. to where she can give back to that, right? ⁓ where you yourself, you're now that you're finding that comfort and that acceptance of your your your personality disorders and and your trauma. ⁓ you know, and I had doing some trauma work myself and and working, I finally had a doctor that said you you're you're not going to get past this. It's just it's gonna be okay. You know, and those things that happen to you, they're all they happen to you, but when you can accept them and that it's just part of who Danae is, who Mike is, then we're able to help people learn that this this stuff that happened to you, ⁓ it's part of the journey and it's it's those lessons now that And this goes to where I think we have that duty and that responsibility to pass those messages and and sharing and comfort on with the next person. I'll I'll tell you myself, Danae, I learned so much about myself listening to you today. And and the way I've handled the traumas and you've told you've said things and I'm like, ⁓ yeah, I do that too You know, you know. ⁓ yeah, yeah. ⁓ you know, like you, I'm a very empathetic person. And ⁓ you're talking about dressing up like Santa as a child. ⁓ I didn't do that per se, but you know, I wanted that childhood acceptance from my peers. And we w we looked to it any way we could to to just have someone say, Y you know, someone holds you and and love you and and and be there for you and Dene: Yeah. BigMike: When that we feel like that's missing and we carry that pain into our adulthood, it makes our relationships hard. So I commend you on everything you've done to get to where you are and and ⁓ you know the healing and compassion you show for people. ⁓ where can the audience ⁓ find you and and learn more about this and and learn more about the ⁓ The messages you're sharing. Dene: Okay, so you can find me on face you can find my website bpd raw dot com. Also on Facebook BPD Raw. Just search for it's it's it's not actually a group, it's a page. I believe there's something similar, but yeah, you'll see my purple and black circle around BP D RAW. ⁓ Real unfiltered human is underneath it. ⁓ my book is available my places I didn't belong is available on Amazon. And a new book should be out by the end of the year. ⁓ yeah. BigMike: Great. And we're gonna post links to all that stuff in the in the description. So that way ⁓ people can click on that and and get that out and and stuff. But Danae, I I really appreciate you you spending the time with us today and and sharing your message and and feelings. And I like I said, I know where I'm waking up in the world and the world is waking up here in the Boise, Idaho in the United States, the world is going to bed for you. So I'm gonna let ya let you go that way. and and ⁓ Have an enjoyable evening and I can't wait to to talk to you again and hear more about what's going on with you. I I really appreciate this time that we spent. So ⁓ Big Mike, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I I I I don't know how to I'm not good with the kilograms. I think I'm somewhere just ⁓ maybe about a hundred and twenty kilos or so. I w but yeah, I'm I'm a I'm six four and and Dene: Cool, cool. No problem. Same here, Mike. Or should I say big mic? Big Mike. BigMike: You know, I'm I I am a big guy, but ⁓ it takes my wife likes to remind me that it takes a big guy to carry the big heart that I have in me, so yeah. All right, Danae, I appreciate it. And ⁓ everybody thanks for listening. Please ⁓ go find Danae and hear the message he's sharing 'cause Dene: There you go. There you go. Well we'll we'll we'll we'll fix Mike up there, Denee. I don't say that's how Danay sounds like I'm a creamy yogurt. Don't worry, I don't know why. People always say Danae. And it doesn't even look like Danay. But that's okay. BigMike: ⁓ gosh. Denis, Denis. I Yeah, y you know what it is? It's 'cause ⁓ you said it was French and ⁓ so to me the French E is has an A sound, so Denis. Everybody go out and f Dene: Yeah, well if I had it up as genus you'd get it, but that's okay. Look, I don't mind. Just don't call the argument enough. BigMike: Yeah, ever well I yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Same, same. Yeah. Everybody go out there and find ⁓ Denis and ⁓ and and find his message and and learn from him and and learn his message and and help ⁓ help help those that are probably in the same situation and have just have a little more love and compassion for him. So Denis, I appreciate your time, sir. Dene: No problem, Big Mike. Have a good one. Bye. BigMike: You too.