Latest / Ridiculous History / New England versus Vampires, Part Two: Desperation and Desecration

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New England versus Vampires, Part Two: Desperation and Desecration · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. This is part two of our
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: story about the time so many people in New England,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: for not invalid reasons, thought that their relatives were turning
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  Speaker 1: into vampires and chasing down the living from beyond the grave.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: That's our guest super producer Little Brilliante returning. Wow, did
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you just kiss like two fingers then put it up
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: in the sky? Okay? Nice? Then we also want to
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: shout out our super producer, Max Williams. It's on Adventures
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: returning soon, as is my trusty co host Noel Brown. Wait, Ben,
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: you might be saying you're doing the show without a
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: co host, ha, No, actually, we were very fortunate to
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  Speaker 1: be joined again with our returning special guests. The creator
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  Speaker 1: of Ephemeral you know him. You love them, longtime listeners,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: you've heard them on the show before. It is Alex Williams. Alex,
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  Speaker 1: this is your fourth time on this show and I'm
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  Speaker 1: broadcasting live from the bottom of my tomb. Yes, yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: which I gotta say. You sound great. It is really
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: nice and dead down here. It's got some good sound proofing.
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  Speaker 1: It's dead on a couple of levels. Right, So, Alex,
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  Speaker 1: previously you and Lowell and I were talking about the
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  Speaker 1: context that led to something called the New England Vampire panic. Folks,
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  Speaker 1: if you haven't heard that phrase before, if you haven't
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  Speaker 1: heard part one of the show, just go ahead pause this,
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  Speaker 1: listen part one. We'll wait for you. Okay, how long
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  Speaker 1: it was, say forty minutes yourself? Yeah, let's just okay.
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  Speaker 1: And we're bad. We're bad. That was a great episode.
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  Speaker 1: Was that really? Uh? Stuff? And by which I mean
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  Speaker 1: the most horrible, depressing, depraved, tragic, exciting stuff. Right. That's
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  Speaker 1: part of why we decided to put this into two episodes, folks.
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  Speaker 1: So for the for those of us in the crowd
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  Speaker 1: who are maybe a little bit squeamish or yeah, maybe
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  Speaker 1: maybe don't react super well to um somewhat explicit descriptions
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  Speaker 1: of some disturbing things, this may not be the episode
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  Speaker 1: for you. We just wanted to do a little disclaimer. Uh, Alex,
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  Speaker 1: you have in particular dug into some dug into some
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  Speaker 1: uh some visceral descriptions of what's happening. But folks, as
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  Speaker 1: you know, if you were listening to part one of
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  Speaker 1: this podcast, people in New England, driven to desperate acts
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  Speaker 1: due to the apparently inexplicable deaths of people in their communities,
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  Speaker 1: began attempting to well successfully exhooming and disenterring the corpses
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  Speaker 1: of their loved ones in an attempt to end their careers.
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  Speaker 1: Has vampires. That's what they thought they were doing, right, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: so basically what we've lulls in the ground. You're in
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  Speaker 1: my house then, but I'm ailing, and you're ailing. I've
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  Speaker 1: tried everything else that you know, my village friends says,
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  Speaker 1: you know, you should really dig up Law and see
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  Speaker 1: what his body looks like, because there's a chance that
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  Speaker 1: he is exercising some kind of will, maybe some spectral power,
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  Speaker 1: and and and is the one causing Bend to still
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  Speaker 1: be sick. And so maybe late one night we go
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  Speaker 1: and dig up Loll and we see what kind of
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  Speaker 1: state the body was in. That was what people would
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  Speaker 1: do first. Now, if it's the situation where you've been
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  Speaker 1: buried in the winter time, your body is not going
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  Speaker 1: to composee decompose very quickly. New England winter is very harsh,
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  Speaker 1: very very cold a lot of times, and they couldn't
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  Speaker 1: even get the bodies in the ground. They were doing
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  Speaker 1: these above ground tombs things. But apparently so if if
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  Speaker 1: the corps was exhumed and they weren't they were in
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  Speaker 1: good shape, that was a bad sign. Yes, yeah, and
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  Speaker 1: there would be descriptions or you know, if you if
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  Speaker 1: you haven't seen a decomposing body before, then it's very
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  Speaker 1: understandable that's passed by one every day. That would work, right, Well,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: we are in an interesting neighborhood and you have a
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  Speaker 1: fascinating commute. You know, you can just take the belt line.
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  Speaker 1: You don't have to go through that morgue. Okay, but yeah,
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  Speaker 1: the point stands, if you are unfamiliar with death and decomposition,
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  Speaker 1: then you might look at someone who has been buried
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  Speaker 1: in the winter, look at their corpse and think, uh,
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  Speaker 1: that guy doesn't look all the way dead. He just
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  Speaker 1: winked at me. He just winked at me. Or it
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  Speaker 1: seems like the you know, the common myth of the
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  Speaker 1: fingernails and the hair quote unquote growing just because the
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  Speaker 1: skin is retracting. I literally learned that today. Yeah. I
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  Speaker 1: was totally a person that thought that they kept growing forever.
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  Speaker 1: And I I like that idea in a little piece
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  Speaker 1: of me died with with the know that that's not true,
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  Speaker 1: right right, that's but that it does very much if
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  Speaker 1: you've ever seen it, it does look like people's fingernails
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  Speaker 1: are still growing. And so you would think, my good friend,
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  Speaker 1: my family member, Lowell has been clearly turned into a
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  Speaker 1: vampire and is operating. Look at his fingernails. Look at
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  Speaker 1: there there was the other other descriptions about this or
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  Speaker 1: similar situations point to things like ruddy cheeks, they looked,
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  Speaker 1: they looked well fed, and things like that. So we
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  Speaker 1: do we have a good example of a story like this.
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  Speaker 1: Let's maybe go to the Brown family. That's I mean,
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  Speaker 1: that's that's the best example there is Knowles, Knowles, honor.
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  Speaker 1: Let's go to the Brown face. I imagine they're not related,
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  Speaker 1: but let's go. First of all, there was Noel Brown,
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  Speaker 1: right famous famously Van Pirett. No, no, no, okay, So
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  Speaker 1: we're talking like this story really begins in the eighteen eighties.
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  Speaker 1: Father George Brown, mother Mary A Liza Brown, and then
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  Speaker 1: daughters Mary Olive Brown and Mercy Lena Brown. You got
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  Speaker 1: all that, Ben, Yeah, they had a son to Edwin Brown. Edwin, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: he probably had a clever middle name that just hasn't
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  Speaker 1: trickled down to us. It was probably spider Man. There
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  Speaker 1: is a very common name at this time. Okay. And
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  Speaker 1: what they lived in Exeter, Rhode Island in the eighteen
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  Speaker 1: nine ease. Exeter was kind of a ghost town then.
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  Speaker 1: Um they called it deserted deserted Exeter. It was a grarian,
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  Speaker 1: it was a border town. There was really not much
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  Speaker 1: going on. The Civil War had sort of ravaged it.
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  Speaker 1: Population was less than a thousand people. So people noticed
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  Speaker 1: when others took sick. Yeah, because it is it is
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  Speaker 1: one of those small communities where everybody does know everybody
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  Speaker 1: for sure. It's not it's not easy to keep a
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  Speaker 1: secret there. And in the historical record we know that
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  Speaker 1: over time Mary Brown and Mary all of Brown, the
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  Speaker 1: daughter and Mercy Lena Brown, were you would say, growing sickly.
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  Speaker 1: They were taking ill, they were doing um worse. It
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  Speaker 1: seemed every day whatever had a grasp of them, which
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  Speaker 1: we now know is consumption. Wasn't the off and on
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  Speaker 1: again type. It was active. At least it was the
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  Speaker 1: active kind for the two marries, the mom and the daughter.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't until I believe ten years later that Mercy
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  Speaker 1: passed away, and she did have the tuberculosis that went
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  Speaker 1: dormant and then became active again. The doctors thought they
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  Speaker 1: knew what had happened. The doctors thought they had a
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  Speaker 1: rational explanation. But citizens, what few there were an exeter
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  Speaker 1: at the time, had their own theory. They had their
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  Speaker 1: own belief. And I believe it's after Mercy, After Mercy dies,
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  Speaker 1: then the husband, George Brown is still alive. Right, George
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  Speaker 1: Brown was really not susceptible to tuberculosis. He lived in
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  Speaker 1: amazing but but it's a tragic life that he's lived. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: he definitely did that one where he watched everyone and
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  Speaker 1: they left die yes around him, and he did everything
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  Speaker 1: he possibly could even think that he didn't believe in
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  Speaker 1: and felt completely uncomfortable with. He did everything in his
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  Speaker 1: power and it all failed. Yeah, because his after his
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  Speaker 1: daughters and his spouse DIY, his son Edwin spider Man
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  Speaker 1: Brown also falls ill. And it's it's his last child
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  Speaker 1: that he has. So you describe it perfectly, Alex. George
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  Speaker 1: does something that in normal times he would never imagine
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  Speaker 1: himself doing. What is that? So it's George Brown lost
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  Speaker 1: his wife ten years ago, his daughter Mary Olive Brown
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  Speaker 1: nine years ago and now he's lost his daughter, Mercy
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  Speaker 1: Lena Brown. Yeah, there are a lot of names, but
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  Speaker 1: I'm doing my best to keep him straight. And there's
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  Speaker 1: you know those urgans. We use the same names over
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  Speaker 1: and over. Do you do the sandwich truss? It gets
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  Speaker 1: very confusing. Um. Anyways, he's got three women in his
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  Speaker 1: family in the grave, and his son Edwin is sick.
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  Speaker 1: They sent him out to Colorado Springs, which was a
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  Speaker 1: really popular place for um sanitarium. The dry air is
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  Speaker 1: supposed to be good um for for your tuberculosis. I
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  Speaker 1: would love for someone to send me to Colorado Springs.
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  Speaker 1: And so his son is. He doesn't want to lose
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  Speaker 1: the last member of his family. Obviously, he doesn't know
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  Speaker 1: what to do. He's in that situation that we described,
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  Speaker 1: and no one is sort of an official capacity, the doctors,
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  Speaker 1: the town officials, the clergy. No one's really got an
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  Speaker 1: answer for him. But there's sort of, you know, unofficial
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  Speaker 1: voices in the community that suggests that perhaps it is
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  Speaker 1: you know, one of the dead family members spirit praying
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  Speaker 1: on his living son. Right. Yeah, And people are people
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  Speaker 1: have a horse in the race here and it's their
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  Speaker 1: own survival because they're thinking, you know, if this is
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  Speaker 1: some kind of supernatural situation, then what's going to happen
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  Speaker 1: when they're done with the Brown family? This creature, this
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  Speaker 1: entity is going to come for someone else. So and
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  Speaker 1: this also comes from Michael Bell. So they say to
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  Speaker 1: George Brown, they say, look, this is serious, and it's
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  Speaker 1: not just your son on the line. It's not just
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  Speaker 1: you on the line. It is everyone in Exeter on us,
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  Speaker 1: all of us. Yeah, and you know, spread out different ways.
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  Speaker 1: But obviously travel isn't a problem for these vampires unless
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  Speaker 1: there's running water and a couple of other superstitious cafaats.
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  Speaker 1: But yeah, people are not joking, you know, it's not
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  Speaker 1: a prank. They are seriously considering this an existential threat.
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  Speaker 1: So this is weird because from what I understand, Alex
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  Speaker 1: George Brown himself didn't really buy the idea, did he.
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  Speaker 1: Everything that I've read claims that he was. He didn't
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  Speaker 1: want to be a part of it. Basically, this solution
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  Speaker 1: that people have been using back into the tenth centuries.
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  Speaker 1: So for when you've got a vampire exercising its will
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  Speaker 1: from beyond the grave like this is you open up
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  Speaker 1: the tomb, you dig up the cough and you crack
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  Speaker 1: that sucker ope, and you look at what's going on
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  Speaker 1: in there. If there's anything fishy, he mutilate the corpse Eventualistically, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: there's a bunch of different ways. Um. They really seem
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  Speaker 1: to vary in the time and place that you're in,
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  Speaker 1: and even just within New England in this period of
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  Speaker 1: a hundred or so years, it's sort of mattered where
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  Speaker 1: you were, or like Rhode Island, where the Brown family
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  Speaker 1: was was more spread out. Um Uh, it tended to
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  Speaker 1: be more just kind of an individual family gathering to
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  Speaker 1: open up the cough, open up the graves and mutilate
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  Speaker 1: the corpses. Places like Vermont, they tended to do it
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  Speaker 1: as a public spectacle. Vermont very tight, closer living and
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  Speaker 1: literally you'd have like town officials and clergy and stuff
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  Speaker 1: in there, you know, desecrating the graves in a sort
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  Speaker 1: of ceremony. But take it all the way back to Europe,
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  Speaker 1: it seems to me, and I'm sure that there's many
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  Speaker 1: shades are great at this, but that the most common
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  Speaker 1: things to do were like buying the feet of the
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  Speaker 1: course with thorns, run a steak through its heart, maybe
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  Speaker 1: stack it down to the earth so it couldn't get up,
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  Speaker 1: put something into his mouth, beheaded right, and then turn
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  Speaker 1: the head facing down. Sometimes in New England they would
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  Speaker 1: literally just dig it up and flip the corpse over.
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  Speaker 1: They might rearrange the parts. The skull and cross bones
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  Speaker 1: comes up a lot. Our Poul Michael Bell has identified
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  Speaker 1: something like eight plus um graves that were exhumed uh
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  Speaker 1: or thought to be exhumed from this period. He suspects
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  Speaker 1: that there's like at least a hundred more. But the
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  Speaker 1: skull and crossbones comes up a lot. What bones would
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  Speaker 1: you use for the for the crossbones? What bones would
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  Speaker 1: I use? Or what bones are generally used both? Oh?
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  Speaker 1: For me, I guess you know, I think it would
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: be neat if it were the forearms and and the
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: whole hand, the whole skeleton hand. Yeah, yeah, but I
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  Speaker 1: think most people probably would just find two long bones, right,
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  Speaker 1: so you would just maybe a thigh bone, maybe maybe
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: a thigh bone, maybe something cool from the arms, one
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: of the limbs, a rib cage with a wonky you know. Um,
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  Speaker 1: that's that's is my take. You know, my favorite bones
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: are the funny bone. I don't remember all their names.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: There's there's like three little bones in your ear. Oh yeah,
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: hammer the anvil and the uh the kumquat rubarb. Yeah,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: they hammer the stirrup. Oh yeah, the hammer, the anvil,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: the stirrup. I just think that those little bones really
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: make life cool. Oh yeah, you're you're also an audio file.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: What you say an audio file? I can't hear you.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Oh boy. So George Brown is a tragic figure. He's
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: driven to grief and he he is not there during
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  Speaker 1: this exhumation. Um, but the people who, like you said,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: it was regionally varied in terms of what kind of
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: methods were used and who was expected to be pressent.
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  Speaker 1: So they dig up the mom she did like ten
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  Speaker 1: years ago. She's her body's her corpses, like totally decomposed.
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  Speaker 1: They're like, okay, probably not a vampire. They dig up
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  Speaker 1: the daughter, the first daughter at the time, she died
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: nine years ago, though totally decomposed. Yeah, probably not a vampire.
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  Speaker 1: Then they exhume Mercy Lena Brown, the daughter that's only
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: died about two months ago. As I understand, she wasn't
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: actually in the ground. She was in a tomb above
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the ground. I believe, Yes, Yeah, the ground was frozen
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: they couldn't dig down. She's in this above ground tomb,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: so they crack that open. Well, she's not very decomposed, right,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: She's got the thing you're talking about where it looks
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: like her fingernails and hairben ground. She's she's looked better,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: but she looks like she's in pretty good shape. It's
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: about two months after her death. Yeah, and she's also
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: got the signs of consumption, right, you know, she's she's
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: wasted away, she's she's maybe got rosy cheeks. Ah, everything
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: that I've read sounds like the description would be super
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: normal for someone that had died obviously tragically, but like
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: under those conditions, it's like a super normal way for
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: that corpse to look right then, especially in the cold,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: very very cold winters. You know, you're basically refrigerated. You're
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: gonna last a while. But the folks that are there
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: that night decide, well, that's definitely the vampire. Yeah, and
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: they and they, This is a really great point you
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: brought up earlier. It may have been in Part one.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: They probably don't use the word vampire. They probably use
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: some other words. Some there's something describing a spirit, maybe
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: something that is a regional dialect lost to history because
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: the media of the time, they will go contemporaneous media
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: excuse me, will describe it to outsiders as vampiresm but
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: there's not a lot of evidence they said vampire. We
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: do know for sure. They decided something terrible was afoot
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: and supernatural, and so according to the beliefs that they
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: were practicing, uh, Mercy's heart and liver were removed and burned,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: and then they hooked the ashes of what they burned,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: mixed it with water and gave it to Edwin Brown,
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: the boy, to drink. And they thought this would cure
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: him of his affliction and prevent any any of the
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: undead from influencing him. This proved to be incorrect, as
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: he passed away two months later. I mean, it's a
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: it's a terrible, terrible story, but it really happened, and
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: George Brown went along with it. And you know, they're
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: all buried next to each other in a I mean
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: that whole family that's still an active cemetery and Exeter
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: and and they're all there. I mean I read one
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: article that put it like and Mercies buried there between
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: the father that had her exhumed, the brother that drank
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: her heart liver. That is the one of the really
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: common um cure solution that you see in New England
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: was cutting out the vital organs. Do you know how
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: many vital organs? How many vital organs are Do you
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: mean like in the world altogether, or like the average human,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I mean in a single human body. Well, it's interesting
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: because the kidneys are vital organs, but they roll in
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: a pair. So if we counted them as one, I'd say,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: let's see liver, lungs, heart, brain, does the does the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: pancreas make the list? Well? Skin, it is an organ. No,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: everybody forgets about skin and skin is an organ. So
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: this that I pulled said, the heart, lungs, kidneys, liver,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: and spleen, spleen, the spleen bro The brain doesn't count.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: Now you don't need a brain. No, I think you're right.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I think you're right. Um it's a term that I
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: hear and I've just I've wanted about. Um. I think
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: you're right that the brain is pretty vital except for
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: making this show. Yeah, so we're we're adding some levity
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: here because we are talking about really disturbing stuff, and
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: you can also see other cases. Is like you mentioned
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: alex in Vermont with the case of Frederick Ransom, you
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: can also see that they believed, at least in the
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: case of the Brown family, they believed that they were exercising,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: you know, critical thinking. They didn't think anybody was acting
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: crazy because they didn't do this to the corpses of
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: the Marys. The corpses of the Mary's appeared to have
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: rotted and not to be preserved. And the Brown exhumations,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: as as you pointed out, even though this made Rhode
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Island known as the vampire capital of America or whatever
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the breathless headlines where it's the Brown exhumations are just
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: one of many more that were in the area around
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: this time. And I appreciate that you pointed out Michael
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Bell's work saying, Okay, I've found over eighty things that
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: somehow qualify as vampire rituals. And he also who says
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: I think this started at least by seventy four, if
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: not earlier, and it persisted. This is the crazy part.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: It persisted all the way to eight after Coke found
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: the bacteria that causes tuberculosis. Excuse me, Consumption two is
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: super modern, right, I mean, there's phonograph records that are old,
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: that old, I think, Yeah, I mean the motion pictures
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: are about to be a thing in a few years,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: automobiles coming around pretty so yeah, I mean, yeah, that's
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: that's that's that's just right around the corner. It seems
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: like the media really had a field day with the
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Mercy Browns story. Yes, I mean even still, um, I
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: read when one place talking about you've been to Salem, Massachusetts. Briefly,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: they really, you know, sort of have as a town
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: leaned into the which trials thing is kind of a
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: kitchen you know, sort of tourist tourist trapped kind of
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and exit is not like that at all with as
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I understand, I have not been an exit. I've been
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to Salem, but exit apparently does not lean into that
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: sort of direction at all. Though, like I said, the
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: graves are still there. But the media at the time
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: really seems to have had a field day with it,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: a lotted the word vampire all around. Yeah. Yeah, and
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: in a way that may have harmed more than it helps,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: but it definitely had an effect on culture, and it's
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: one that remains with us today. We know that, as
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: you said, there were variations and what people thought was happening,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: their variations in the way they tried to address it.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: But the things that were the things that we're categorizing
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: as vampire rituals all describe a situation where a grave
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: was desecrated. That it's exactly what happened. And there are
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: things that people didn't even know about until like the
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: nineteen nineties when I think it was some kids playing
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: who originally discovered this mass grave in Griswold, Connecticut, and
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: they found these bodies had the skeletons at least had
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: parts of parts of their anatomy shattered and rearranged into
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: those skull and crossbone patterns you mentioned. See folks, we
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: we we got there. That was that was foreshadowing. That
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: wasn't just our mutual love of pirates. You know, there's
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: one there was one of the things that I that
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I read about a symptom that people would, you know,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: think of when they when they dig up the corpse
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: and look at the corpse. One of the things that
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: they would say, oh, that's a vampire is if it
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: looked bloated like it had just eaten. Yes, that would
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: be the well fed aspect, right, yeah, which would just
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: be from what like the gases of like just natural
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: decomposition breaking down. Yeah, probably gas is produced by the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say entities, but as Helen's super too,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: supernatural gases produced by the very tiny things digesting. Uh,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: this is yeah, this is unfortunate that gas does happen.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: But this is also before modern. Yes, it's before modern.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Is Beano still count as modern? Why don't they name
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: it bean? No? Hey, bro, it's it's clearly memorable because
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: I just dropped it in here. It's just I've never
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: heard it, not said it in an awkward way. You know,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: maybe we just need some some to do our quiet
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: storm voices and do a Pino commercial even then and stuff.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Oh should have taken Pino exactly. So this is um.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: This is interesting because for people who are outside of
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: the New England area at this time, as you said,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: feels really surprisingly modern. People who are reading about this
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: because does get a lot of headlines, they think it
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: looks kind of primitive, a lot of like a lot
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: of folks in Europe and so on. They're saying, you know,
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: we're in a new era. It's the eighteen hundreds. We're
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: into science now, we're learning about the world. We have
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: agreed as a civilization that this universe is both understandable
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: and worth understanding. What the heck is happening over there
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: in Well, they probably didn't call them the colonies at
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: that point unless they were very stuck up in very British.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: But a few years after the American Revolution, yeah, you know,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: but it's like thirty the little lesson thirty years. There
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: are some that will always call them the colonists and
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: the colonies. Look at these the primitives in the colonies
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: clearly been tainted by folklore. Yeah, whatever the case was,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: it was it was not seen as a normal thing.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: What we mean is there are not a lot of
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: people in Western Europe at the time going, uh yeah,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: I mean sometimes, yeah, you gotta do it, Yetta dig
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: them up, flip them over, it happens. I mean, that's
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: that's the jam. No one was really saying that in
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Western Europe, and instead they were saying this is they
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: were describing it as uh as a d evolution of sorts. Culturally, socially,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: they were saying, this is like the darkest age of unreasoning,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: ignorance and blind superstition. And it was lumped in with
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: stories of werewolves and witches, another European folklore, tall tales
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that were generally in Western Europe considered to be myths
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: by that time. Right, And there's this interesting piece of speculation,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: and maybe this is maybe this is where we start
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: to draw to a close here, Alex, did you hear
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: that some folks believe this might have inspired the Draculus
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: we're remembering part one We talked about how post bram
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Stoker vampires or vampiresm and culture is very different from
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: pre Stoker. So I don't know, I like the theory.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: It's so it was so surprising to me that this
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: predated Bram bram Stoker's Dracula because of the way that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: you really see it in the in the newspapers at
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the time, local papers, but also you know, larger circulation
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: papers banding about the word vampire applied to these cases.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: And I just figured that it was kind of maybe
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: top of mind for people because because the novel was
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: so famous. But the novel did come after, but it
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: came really close on the heels, right, So how quickly
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: can one write a novel? And he was based where
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: bram Stoker is from, Ohio, Oh right, right, like columb Cincinnati. Yeah,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I think he's he's not from Pennsylvania. I think he's
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: a natty boy. No, we're kidding, We're kidding. Bram Stoker
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: is an Irish author. Well that's not funny, no, no,
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: And that's kind of on him for not having the
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: foresight to be born in a place that would be
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: funnier in the context of this show. But so the idea, right,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: is that two is when the Mercy Browns story, Well,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: that's when it happens, and it's also when the chatter
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: is going on about it in the American newspapers. How
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: quickly could he have like gotten that, ingested it, consumed it,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: and then you know, manifested it into a novel and
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: got it out. Yeah. It's interesting because there was a
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: clipping from New York World in eighteen nine six that
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: was later found in bram Stoker's papers. His theater company
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: had been touring the US at this time, in so
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: he probably ran into that reading just the local news.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: And his novel Dracula was published in eighteen nine seven.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: So one of the big debates is how much time
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: do you need to write a novel? Like that's enough time,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: you think? So other people are arguing, they're they're arguing
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: in favor of this, and they're saying, Okay, how is
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Lena not the character of Lucy? Right, they'd say, take
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Mercy and Lena and you sort of squash them together
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: and you get Lucy and stuff. That was close enough. Yeah.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: And also it's, uh, it's very common for fiction authors,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: novelist or short story writers to take inspiration from real
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: life events. You know, it's I would say that's more
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: often than not. That's what actually happens. The interesting thing here, also,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: the optimistic thing is that people aren't digging up their
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: loved ones anymore for uh on suspicion of vampirism or
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: supernatural nefarious activities. Yeah, just to just to see them.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Yet nothing creepy about that. And and generally that's believed
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: that that is because science came in, like science assumed
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: a more a more prominent role and was able to
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: explain some of what led to these infections, what led
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to the communication of consumption. And then knowing that knowing
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: this explanation, people were in a better place to understand
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: and combat it. And that is luckily overall a happy
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: ending to this week's series on the New England Vampire Panic,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: and we talked about some grizzly stuff. Alex. I really
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: appreciate your hanging out today. I love that we're able
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: to do a two parter. Thank you as well. Uh
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Mr Lowell Brilliante our guest super producer Ben. I have
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: a nagging question. Yeah, there's something about this that I
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: that doesn't sit like I just don't understand. Okay, I'm
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Edwin Brown. Yes, I've got my sisters. You've cut my
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: sister's art and liver out. You've burned them to ash.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe I inhaled the smoke as you were burning them.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: You've mixed that ash into water. You've made a tonic
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: with it, maybe but a sprig of Freshman or whatever.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: And you've given that to me and I drink that.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: What did I get? Like if it was gonna work?
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: What is the sort of the logic and the folk magic.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: There's this idea that's kind of like sympathetic magic. You're
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: kind of treating like with like so you are taking
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's the old idea that the the
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: poison or the source of an illness somehow transformed or
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: going through certain rituals or treatments, can itself become the
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: cure for that condition? Or within within the poison we
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: find the answer kind of idea that, no, I don't
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: know the specifics in terms of why it needed to
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: be the heart and the liver or rather than say
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the lungs and the kidneys. That's a good question, but
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: that it does seem to have a logic, the ideas
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: that by digesting or consuming some essence of a thing,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: you are maybe inoculating yourself against it. But that's such
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: a science the way to think of it, though, like
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: what's the what's the spiritual angle on that? What's the
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: metaphysical angle on it? I'd be very interested to hear
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: the metaphysical angle, And I think maybe it's something we
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: look into, right because we're gonna hang out a little
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: bit after this, so let's look into that together. I
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: don't know about anybody else, but this is certainly worked
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: up an appetite for me. Quite a thirst, yes, quite
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: a thirst, I would say, and not just for knowledge,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: but of course not human blood. Yes, how much of
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: you drink at one time? Do let us know? Ridiculous
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: At iHeart media dot com. You can also contact us
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: on social media but while you're on the internet, may
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: I recommend, uh, may I recommend checking out loll brilliante
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: show that he's working on when he when he's not
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: hanging out here with us. It is Prodigy. It is
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: available wherever you find your favorite podcast. Alex, you also
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: have a show. It's aphemeral, it's kick ass. I'm not
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: just saying that because my pal Nolan I have appeared
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: on a couple of episodes. But more importantly, we want
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: to know why why? What is the what is the
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: metaphysical logic? Perhaps behind this the specificity of these vampire rituals.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Alex. Saturday Night Live rules dictate that
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: the next time you're back it will be your fifth
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: time guest toasting, which means we have to give you
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: a special jacket. Cool. Yeah, well but this was my
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: third time. We just did two episodes because for that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: counts is for Just think about what kind of jacket
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: you want and remember that special doesn't necessarily mean great.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Mean I should say that fan Ro's got Halloween stuff.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: All October. We did a thing about her carving Carnival
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: of Souls. We're doing a story about adaptation thing. Uh,
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: really great creepy story about demonic possession in a scrap book,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: which I know sounds wonky as hell, but like it's
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: it's a classic story, really really think scary. You'd like
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: to say that, yeah, well, okay, thank you bleeping scary. Yes,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: And I can personally vouch for that episode of Carnival
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: of Souls is one of my favorite horror movies. And
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: I think you will be surprised to learn just how
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: deeply Alex and Trevor and Max Williams worked together, Like
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: how deeply you all delved into that story. So I
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I say that not just as a friend, but as
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a fan. Do check out the show. It is free
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. That's gonna be all for
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: us today. Happy haw woween everyone, Stay safe out there,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: and we'll talk to you again real soon. For more
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.