Latest / Beautifully Complex / 345: We Need to Talk About Dignity and Humanity, with Penny Williams

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345: We Need to Talk About Dignity and Humanity, with Penny Williams · Beautifully Complex

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Systems claim to teach skills, but they actually rely on fear, shame,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and withdrawal of connection and affection. Welcome to Beautifully Complex,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: where we unpack what it really means to parent neurodivergent
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: kids with dignity and clarity. I'm Penny Williams, and I
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: know firsthand how tough and transformative this journey can be.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Let's dive in and discover how to raise regulated, resilient,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: beautifully complex kids together. Oh and if you want more support,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: join our free community at hub dot beautifully complex dot life.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Welcome back, folks. We need to have a conversation about
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: dignity and humanity. I'm going to first walk you through
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: a few examples before we jump into the meat of
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: this discussion. But we have crossed a line and started
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: calling things normal that are not or should not be normal.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Example number one, the behavior chart on the wall in
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  Speaker 1: your kid's school classroom. It's laminated. It's up near the
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: teacher's desk. Everybody can see it, teachers and kids alike.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: There's green, there's yellow, there's red, and each child has
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: a clip or a card with their name on it
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: when they get overwhelmed. Not disruptive they're just overwhelmed. The
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: clip has to get moved, the card has to be turned.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: There's no explanation, no conversation, and by lunch that kid
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: knows exactly where they stand, and so does everyone else.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: This strips their dignity. Think about an IEP meeting where
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: a kid completely disappears. You're in the conference room, there's
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: like six adults, the IEPs up on the screen. Your
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: kid is sitting at the table, or maybe they're just
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  Speaker 1: outside the door. While all of the adults are talking
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  Speaker 1: about their deficits, their behavior, challenges, and any other concerns.
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  Speaker 1: They're using words like non compliant, avoidant, refuses, disrespectful. No
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  Speaker 1: one's asking your kid how they feel in their body.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: No one notices them disappearing and folding into themselves. Their
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: dignity has been stripped. Another example, the calm down room
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: that really isn't about calm your kids. Support plan says
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  Speaker 1: quote sensory break. It sounds really thoughtful, it sounds really
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  Speaker 1: trauma informed and safe, but in practice it looks like this.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: A child escalates, the adult escorts them out of the room,
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  Speaker 1: the door closes, and the message to that kid is
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  Speaker 1: very clear. Even if nobody ever says it out loud.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Come back when you can be easier to be around.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: We don't want you here if you're a problem. That
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  Speaker 1: strips their dignity, folks. Another example the gentle compliance script.
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  Speaker 1: An adult kneels and uses a calm voice. I need
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  Speaker 1: you to make a good choice, use your words. We
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  Speaker 1: don't do that here. The child's body is shaking, They're
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: breathing is shallow. They're so disregulated, but the expectation always
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: stays the same, perform regulation on demand. You've shown me
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  Speaker 1: you're disregulated, But I'm going to tell you that you
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: need to be regulated, and then I'm gonna expect then
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  Speaker 1: it just magically happens. This strips dignity, folks. How about
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  Speaker 1: those data points in our IEPs that end up just
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  Speaker 1: replacing a child. The report says, meltdown's reduced by forty percent.
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  Speaker 1: What it's not saying is the child stopped asking for help,
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  Speaker 1: The child learned to freeze, the child learned it was
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  Speaker 1: safer to disappear. That strips dignity, folks. How about that
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: he knows better moment. We've almost all had these conversations
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  Speaker 1: with our kids' schools. A child does something impulsive, they
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  Speaker 1: blurt something out, they might swing at someone when they
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: said something mean. Then the adult size and says he
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  Speaker 1: knows better. But knowing isn't the same as being able,
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  Speaker 1: and shame does not build skills, folks. It erases safety,
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  Speaker 1: It strips the feeling of safety. It can't happen under shame,
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  Speaker 1: and so what happens? It strips dignity. You guessed it.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: When someone tells you to just do it already and
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  Speaker 1: stop asking questions. I'm sure at some point in your
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: life somebody has said that to you. Just do it
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  Speaker 1: already and stop asking questions. How does that feel? On
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: the receiving end? It feels like you don't matter, doesn't it?
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  Speaker 1: It erases your dignity and humanity. Somewhere along the way,
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  Speaker 1: we decided that compliance actually matters more than humanity. Do
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  Speaker 1: you hear how ridiculous that sounds? We have decided that
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  Speaker 1: compliance matters more than humanity? No? Absolutely, not, no way.
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  Speaker 1: So this episode is going to be about strategies, It's
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: going to be about doing, and I am not neutral
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  Speaker 1: on this. I will warn you right now I'm not
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  Speaker 1: going to be neutral. And remember that if a strategy
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  Speaker 1: wouldn't be acceptable for an adult. It's not suddenly humane
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  Speaker 1: because the person is a child. Kids are people too.
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  Speaker 1: I've said this before on the podcast, but when I
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  Speaker 1: was four or five years old, I had a T
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  Speaker 1: shirt and it said kids are people too, right on
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  Speaker 1: the front, and I wanted to wear that shirt every
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  Speaker 1: moment of every day. So it started very young for
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  Speaker 1: me to see kids as people. They're not things that
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  Speaker 1: we need to control. They are people that we need
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  Speaker 1: to help along the way to finding themselves and doing
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  Speaker 1: it with dignity and humanity. Let's define dignity in plain language.
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  Speaker 1: It is being treated as a full human, even when struggling,
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  Speaker 1: even when different. When someone is different from you and
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  Speaker 1: you treat them like a full human, you are treating
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  Speaker 1: them with dignity. It is not earning respect through behavior.
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  Speaker 1: No one should earn respect in my opinion. It's not
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: proving worth by performing, and it's not losing rights because
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: regulation is hard. Regulation is hard for so many of
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  Speaker 1: our kids. They are on the cusp of that activated
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  Speaker 1: state of dysregulation. So very often that is high alert.
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  Speaker 1: That is where's the stress. I know there's stress coming.
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  Speaker 1: Where is it? Oh my gosh, I can't do this
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  Speaker 1: and then we tack on to that, we approach that
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  Speaker 1: without any dignity. We strip the dignity right out of
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  Speaker 1: it by asking for compliance. We feel like kids need
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  Speaker 1: to earn humane treatment by behaving appropriately using my air quotes. Again,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: no one, no human being, should have to earn humane treatment. Ever,
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  Speaker 1: we also work from this place of thinking that support
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  Speaker 1: is conditional. If we can have unconditional love for another
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  Speaker 1: human little or not, we can have unconditional support. We
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: can unconditionally treat them with dignity. The hard truth is
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  Speaker 1: that our nerd divergent kids are asked to sacrifice dignity
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  Speaker 1: for access. You can have support, but only if you comply.
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  Speaker 1: So we've talked about a lot of examples of where
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  Speaker 1: dignity gets lost in school, those public behavior charts, those
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  Speaker 1: clip systems, forced eye contact isolation so that they can
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  Speaker 1: calm adults talking about a child while they're right there,
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  Speaker 1: present in the room, talking about them, and for them
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  Speaker 1: taking away recess because a kid does their work more slowly,
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  Speaker 1: taking away movement, taking away autonomy. Hello, we need autonomy
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: to feel safe, folks. He knows better language. Well, I'm sorry,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: miss Williams, but your son knows better than to lash
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  Speaker 1: out when another kid is unkind, what are you going
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: to do about this? Come on? Knowing better and being
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  Speaker 1: able to do better depend on the state of the
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  Speaker 1: nervous system. They are two totally different things. These practices
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: that I was just talking about teach kids that their
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  Speaker 1: body is a problem, that their needs are inconvenient, and
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that their voice does not matter. Wow. I mean this
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  Speaker 1: is making me, honestly feel a little sick to talk
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  Speaker 1: about right now. This is not what we want for
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  Speaker 1: our kids. Folks and teachers don't want this for our
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: kids either. They are practicing traditional methods and following traditional
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: ideals about education that just fly in the face of neuroscience.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: It's not about educating, it's about conditioning. But it should
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: be about educating right, and it should be about dignity
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: for all. When regulation is treated like a moral failing,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: dignity is going to be the first casualty. Regulation is
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: not a moral failing. Regulation is a human biological thing
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  Speaker 1: that happens, and some people struggle more than others with dysregulation.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Regulation is not a moral failing. Regulation is a person's biology.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Would you punish someone for having diabetes? Would you tell
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: someone they know better than to use a wheelchair and
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: they need to walk. I mean, these things sound absolutely ridiculous, right,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: but that is what we are doing to neurodivergent kids.
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  Speaker 1: Behavior is not the opposite of dignity. Control is Control
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: is the opposite of dignity. Asking for compliance for compliance's
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  Speaker 1: sake is the opposite of dignity. When we look at
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: things through the brain based lens and we reframe behavior
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: as communication, not character, then we start to treat those
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  Speaker 1: who are neurodivergent with dignity. It's not about character and
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: morals and personality. It is their biology. When the nervous
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: system is under threat, whether it senses an actual threat
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  Speaker 1: or it senses a perceived possible threat, it cannot perform
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  Speaker 1: appropriate behavior. I'm using air quotes again, folks. Appropriate behavior.
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  Speaker 1: It cannot because when we are just regulated thinking, brain
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  Speaker 1: access dims or is completely cut off, so we cannot
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  Speaker 1: access skills, we cannot process language, we cannot rationalize or
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  Speaker 1: use logic. But yet we want to tell a kid,
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  Speaker 1: but I just need you to do this, or I
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  Speaker 1: just need you to act this way, and there's suddenly
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  Speaker 1: supposed to be able to do that. No, it is
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: outside of their biology. In that moment. You cannot discipline
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  Speaker 1: a nervous system into safety. You cannot instruct a nervous
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  Speaker 1: system into safety. You cannot. Systems claim to teach skills,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: but they actually rely on fear, shame, and withdraw of
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: connection and affection, withdrawal of even compassion and empathy. This
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: is not okay. I know you know this, but we
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  Speaker 1: need to be talking about it. This is not okay.
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  Speaker 1: If a child has to abandon their nervous system to
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  Speaker 1: survive school, the school system is broken. The kid isn't broken,
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  Speaker 1: the school system is broken. And by the way, they
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  Speaker 1: can't abandon their nervous system. It controls staying alive. So
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  Speaker 1: what do we do? How do we take a more
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  Speaker 1: humanistic approach? What does dignity centered support actually look like.
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  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that we're permissive. So many people are
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  Speaker 1: going to make that argument that we are just letting
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  Speaker 1: kids get away with air quotes again bad behavior, But
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  Speaker 1: we are not. We are honoring where the nervous system
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  Speaker 1: is in that moment, knowing that we cannot teach or
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  Speaker 1: correct when they are disregulated. It is nervous system first, parenting,
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  Speaker 1: nervous system first educating. Because a nervous system governs our behavior,
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  Speaker 1: so it is that important. Dignity centered actually means privacy, choice, coregulation,
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  Speaker 1: before correction, before correction, assuming stress before we assume that
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  Speaker 1: they're being defiant. When the nervous system goes into fight,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: flight or freeze, that is a biological stress response. So
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: we have to assume stress before we assume intentional bad
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  Speaker 1: behavior because we are going nervous system first. Dignity centered
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  Speaker 1: is repair over punishment and seeing the child, not just
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  Speaker 1: their behavior, seeing that human being in front of you
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  Speaker 1: and what they need. Accountability with dignity is possible. Again,
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  Speaker 1: we're not being permissive, We're not letting go of expectations.
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  Speaker 1: We're not letting kids make their own decisions and run
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  Speaker 1: amok in whatever way they want. Accountability with dignity is possible.
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  Speaker 1: Accountability without that dignity is harming kids, period. It is
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  Speaker 1: harming Kidsture without humanity is just control. It is just
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  Speaker 1: simply trying to control that person, that child. Humanity without
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: structure is abandonment. Structure without humanity is control. Kids deserve
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  Speaker 1: the humanity first, dignity first, So what are the long
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: term costs of ignoring dignity of not treating our neurodiversent kids, teens,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: young adults, adults with dignity. Let's zoom out. When kids
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: grow up without dignity, they mask. Almost every parent I
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: coach now talks about how their kid masks, they have
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: anxiety or increased in escalating anxiety. When kids grow up
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  Speaker 1: without dignity, they have a shame based identity. That little
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: voice inside of them has a story of shame. They
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: also learn helplessness, They learn that they cannot win, and
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: they often learn a distrust of authority because they don't
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  Speaker 1: feel seen, heard, and understood by that authority if they
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: are not treated with dignity. We're not just looking to
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: shape behavior. We are shaping safe nervous systems. We are
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: shaping self worth and future relationships. So I am going
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  Speaker 1: to make a commitment right now, out loud to all
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  Speaker 1: of you that I will always choose dignity over compliance.
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  Speaker 1: I invite you to choose the same stance, the same perspective,
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  Speaker 1: the same commitment. Choose dignity over compliance. Folks, Compliance doesn't
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: teach kid's skills. Compliance robs them of dignity. Compliance makes
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: their nervous system more disregulated and success less possible. When
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: you are coming up to a struggle with a student,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: a struggle with your kid, a struggle with anyone else,
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  Speaker 1: any other human, really ask yourself, does this preserve this
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: person's humanity? Does this preserve this kid's humanity? Does this
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: preserve this teen's humanity? Does this preserve my child's humanity?
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: That should always be our first question, not why did
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: you do that? What's wrong with you? But my response
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: is it going to preserve this child's humanity? Am I
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: going to treat them with dignity if I do this thing?
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: If the answer is no, you need to pivot. If
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: the answer is no, and you continue with that thing
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: that is robbing that child of dignity, you are going
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: to harm them. Maybe not right in that moment, but probably,
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: but you are going to harm them. And when we
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: continue to rob them of dignity, guess what happens. Their
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: mental and emotional health as adults is far worse. It
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: is far worse. We are robbing them of joy and
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: happiness and a sense of belonging. I know that some
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: of you are thinking that I'm hysterical and I've lost
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: my mind and I'm going over the edge, But I'm
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: telling you this matters more than anything. We have to
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  Speaker 1: start treating each other with dignity always, always is, always,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: always always. Please, I'm begging. Can you tell I'm begging.
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  Speaker 1: I just want every human to treat every other human
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  Speaker 1: with dignity and humanity. That is how we raise kids
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  Speaker 1: who are happy and fulfilled. That's how we help our
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: friends and our neighbors and our fellow man when they're
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: having a hard time. We don't need to fix neurodiversion
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: kids neudiversent adults, but when they are kids, we do
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  Speaker 1: need to protect them from systems that forget they are
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  Speaker 1: a human being. They are a unique individual human being.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Parents didn't create the system, this educational system. Educators, most
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: of them, didn't create the system. The system was created,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: you know, decades and decades and decades ago. But those
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: educators are often trapped inside of that antiquated system that
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: does see kids as individuals that only ask for compliance.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Above all, we can hold compassion for the adults in
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: the school, the educators, the teachers, the administrators, and still
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: refuse to rob them of dignity and harm them. Please,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I hope you'll just make this really simple commitment with
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: me that we will always choose dignity over compliance. This
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: is how we change the experience for the better for
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: our kids at school, out of school, and beyond for
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: a lifetime. For a lifetime, folks, I will see you
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: on the next episode. Please take good care. I see you.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: You're doing hard and meaningful work and you don't have
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: to do it alone. If you found this episode helpful,
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: share it with someone who needs it and leave a
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: quick review so other can find this support too. When
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you're ready for next steps, the Regulated Kids Project is
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: here with the tools, coaching, and community to help you
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: raise a more regulated, resilient child. Get more info at
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: regulated kids dot com.