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The Surprising History of Pirates vs Giants · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, everybody.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Tim Hannon, and I am joined by Steve Wirt.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: And on this episode, we are going to talk about the surprising history of pirates versus giants.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_05: There's a lot of history there.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: There there is.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: And some of it is surprising.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: We've done Steeler episodes like this before where we look at the history of a team that's not really like a traditional rival.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, like Steve said, there's a lot in there.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to do one of these with the Pirates.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going to break this episode up into three sections.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to have interesting stories, notable players who played for both teams, and big games.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: Almost sounds like Jeopardy categories, doesn't it?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_05: It's got to have potpourri for 100, Tim.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: But before we get into all that, let's start with some fun facts.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, ready for some fun facts.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: So these two teams have combined for thirteen World Series titles and thirty-two National League pennants.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_05: I think I think till COVID, didn't they play each other like every year for like 90 years or something like that?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_05: It was one of the it was one of the oldest rivalries in the National League.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to talk in a in a moment about their the very first time they played each other, and it was quite a while ago.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: They both started out with different team names.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates were, of course, known as the Alleghenies.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know what the Giants used to be called, Steve?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pretty cool name.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's the New York Gotham's.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, okay.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't that have been a cool name to keep?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: They could have done like a whole Batman thing with Gotham's.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: Giants.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, whatever.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean Giants are fine.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_05: Like the New York baseball Giants.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: Gothams, Gotham's would have been cooler.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_05: I just can see Willie Mays being a New York Gotham.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I could see that being kind of odd too.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: The uh the Pirates, the Pirates and Giants both can lay claim to arguably the two most famous home runs in baseball history.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: The Giants have the shothead run of the world and the Pirates have the Bill Masurovsky Game 7 home run.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_05: I don't I think outside of New York that who hit that?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_05: Was it Bobby uh Bobby Thompson?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I I think that's more of a New York thing, quite honestly.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it it didn't win a World Series, it got them to the World Series where they lost.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_04: So the Giants win the pennant.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: The Giants, I mean but I think but I think that call really made that way more famous than maybe it would have been otherwise to your point.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: Well, Mays was Mays over basket catch in that series, or was that was in a World Series?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: That was in the World Series, that was a couple years later when they were playing, I think, Cleveland.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um the all-time series between these two teams is pretty even.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: At the time of this recording, the Giants have won about 1,100 games and the Pirates have won about a thousand.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's fairly even.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Giants are obviously ahead, but it's not like it's super one-sided.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh here's a good one.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: During World War II, these two teams hold a war benefit game at Forbes Field and raise the modern equivalent of over$700,000 to benefit the war.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, nice.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: The games also stop for a half hour to play a live radio address from FDR.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: Huh.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_05: That's interesting.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: National League president Ford Frick says that Pittsburgh did, quote, a swell job hosting the event.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's high praise from Mr.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_05: Frick, who has an award named after him, apparently.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: A very swell award.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_05: For for announcers.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: Good connection there.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so we so here's here's the I mean I teased this earlier.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Their first ever game against each other took place on Friday, May 20th, 1887.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_05: I believe it.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: 4,000 people show up at the polo grounds in New York to watch Giants 10, Pirates 9.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_05: Do you realize like 1887?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_05: So you're looking like 22 years after the Civil War it ended.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_05: There were literally like Civil War veterans might have been watching this game.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_05: I remember Gettysburg, and then the Giants won.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's very true.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, this was yeah, this was quite quite a while ago.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: What did Andrew Carnegie think of the game?
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I don't have the I don't have Andrew Carnegie's reaction.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: But but the uh the pitcher for this game for the Buckos is a guy named Jim McCormick who hails from Glasgow, Scotland, and he gets shout.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_05: Speaking of Andrew Carnegie, I know right.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_05: I think I think Henry Clay Frick said, hey, you guys need to get back to work.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, probably.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_05: Are you organizing a union?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Why did you bring guns to the game, Mr.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Frick?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh so Jim McCormick doesn't pitch a good game for the Pirates.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: He also sees his teammates commit eight errors, so that doesn't help.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bill George starts for the Giants, and according to the 1887 newspaper, he was, quote, very mild, and with his illegal deliveries, hitting batsmen and giving up bases on balls, he gave Pittsburgh many chances to win.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: But ultimately the Giants do hang on for that 10-9 victory.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: 1887 Pittsburgh newspaper also implies that the umpire is pretty inconsistent when it comes to calling balls and strikes for the pirates as opposed to how he was calling them for the Giants.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_05: I remember, yeah, you remember we went over this in the was that the 1890s?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_05: That was the 1890 Alligate team, which this was actually three seasons before that, which is the worst team in Pirates history.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_05: And remember, like the catcher plays back, there's no mound, you just like pitch from a box.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_05: Like you I don't think they even had gloves yet.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah, it was it was way different.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Very different.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: And we're actually gonna reference your 1890 episode when we get into that notable players for both teams later, because I have a couple guys from your episode that you talked about that that fit in that mold.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: But we're gonna start instead, like we said, with um interesting stories, and we're gonna start with some old-timey feuds.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, do you like old-timey feuds?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_05: My I mean, normally as long as they don't end in like a duel and like Aaron Burr shooting the Secretary of Treasury, we're okay.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_05: Just for the fact it's gonna lead to a play that's three hours long.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, yeah, none of that here.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but we do have, first up, we have Barney Dreyfus versus John McGraw.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_05: That's odd.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: So so what's up here?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_05: McGraw doesn't own the Giants, does he?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, but he's the manager of the diamonds for 30 years.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, forever.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_05: He's in the Hall of Fame.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_05: And it has a great, has a great feel of dreams reference, too.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's right.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, John McGraw pointed his boony finger at me.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Wouldn't let Moon Lake Graham play.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or no, it did let him play, but only for that one inning.
• 7:37
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and Barney Dryce was, of course, the legendary owner of the Pirates, Bill Forbes Field, basically invented the World Series.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, two really uh you know iconic baseball figures in that early era of baseball.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: Why didn't they get along?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it starts when John McGraw refuses to play in the 1904 World Series.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So in 1903, the Pirates and Red Sox played in the first ever World Series.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: We did a whole episode about that.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: And baseball has decided this is going to be an annual thing between the two leagues.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it is an annual thing with two exceptions.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: The 1994 strike, which cancels the World Series, and then here in 1904 when John McGross Giants won the National League pennant, and he's like, Yeah, we won the pennant.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: We don't need to play the best team in the American League to prove anything, so we're done.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_05: So it didn't even involve the Pirates per se, just kind of stuck it to Barney Dreyfus.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and that's that's the thing is, you know, again, Barney Dreyfus had basically, you know, invented the World Series, initiated the World Series, and he he do apparently he doesn't think very highly of John McGraw as it is.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but but him refusing to play in this World Series, Dreyfus considers that insulting.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: It it uh baseball also hadn't codified into this into the roles.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone just kind of expected it to happen.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they eventually fixed that.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_05: But in 1904 So you're saying like the winner of like let's say the Dodgers were the National League, they're like, ah, we're not gonna play in the World Series, heck with it.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean uh again they fixed that where you know You have to.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you have to, but but in 1904 they hadn't done that yet.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: It's almost like bowl season where you don't have to accept the bowl bit or yeah, that's that's a good comparison.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: That's exactly what it was what it's like here.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and so yeah, Dreyfus doesn't like that.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: There's an incident the following year.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about this in our 1908 episode that we did where McGraw heckles Dreyfus in front of a bunch of his friends and accuses him of betting on games.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so Dreyfus goes to the National League president and he actually gets McGraw suspended for 15 games.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_05: What what year is this?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_05: Night like 1905.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: 1905.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and and the Giants are really upset about that because the National League president is a guy whose previous job is working for the Pirates.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: So they say he's not really being impartial.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's a whole mess.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you remember from that episode we did, the the Giants would always heckle Dreyfus when he came to New York.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: The fans would, and then the the Pirates fans, when the Giants came to Pittsburgh, would throw rocks at them.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it got pretty ugly.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh this actually continues all the way into the 1920s when the Giants win four straight National League pennants between 1921 and 1924.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Dreyfus finally gets revenge in 1925 when the Giants when the Pirates beat out the Giants for the pennant.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: That year, Dreyfus tells Pirates manager Bill McKechni that we, quote, ought to lick McGraw and make him like it.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_05: I think he means defeat him and you know, sticking to him.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think he meant like physically go up and lick him.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_05: That that it doesn't translate, well, a hundred years later to no, no, it's old-timey phrases with old-timey feuds.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh both men pass away in the early 1930s, and that's really what officially ends the feud.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: They both die.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: So one more in the old-timey feud category.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: So so John McGraw rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know who else did that?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: The manager of the pirates during that era, a guy that we've talked about.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: Fred Clark, as we Fred Clark, yes.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_05: He was on the 20, wasn't he on the 25 team?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_05: I know.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_05: Was he on the 25 team with McKeckney, or was that the year after that was the whole mess where he like wanted to sit on the bench.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: You detailed all that.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_05: Because he was, yeah, yeah, because he was an owner, he was like a minority owner.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_05: He's like, I'll just kind of chill out on the bench here and like criticize every move McKechnie.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, exactly.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, why did you let him pitch so long?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Fred Clark was a guy that um people didn't always get along with.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: Most wins by a pirate manager, though.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Very successful.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: So so on June 26, 1903, the pirates are in New York to play the Giants.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: Fred Clark arrives at the polo grounds before the game, and he's greeted at the entrance by Giants catcher Frank Bowerman.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: And Bowerman says, Fred, you know, can I please please speak to you for a few minutes?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And Clark says, Yes.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the two men walk into the Giants ticket office, and Bowerman closes the door and locks it, and then starts to accuse Clark of ratting him out.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: About what?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: So here's what happened.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Bowerman, like we said, he's the Giants catcher.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Apparently had said something negative about the backup catcher on the Giants, a guy named Jack Warner, something that he's not very good at playing catcher, he can't throw people out, something, something where he criticized his teammate.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that guy, the backup catcher, Warner, hears about that from the pirates and gets mad at Bowerman.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: And rightfully so, it's like, well, dude, it's bad enough that you're talking about me behind my back, but you're doing it to the opposing team.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and so instead of Bowerman, you know, saying, you know, you're right, I'm sorry, or or or taking some kind of ownership, he decides he's gonna find out, you know, who on the pirates told his teammate that he was talking bad about him, and he apparently thinks it's Fred Clark.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's all very like high school-ish, Steve, isn't it?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_05: Did they come to blows?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_05: That's what I want to know.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh well, actually what happens is uh Fred Clark denies it.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: He says, Yeah, I know you made that statement about Warner, but I wasn't the one who told him.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: And Bowerman says, Well, thank you.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: I just wanted to bring it to your attention.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: The two men shake hands and all's well then ends well.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_05: And let's go play in the let's go play in the weirdest stadium ever.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so no, that's not what happens at all.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_05: Not with Fred Clark involved.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_05: I have a feeling this is gonna end in a some sort of brawl.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it does.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: So Fred Clark denies it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: Bowerman says you're a liar, punches him in the face.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_05: That sounds about right.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then pins him down with a knee and proceeds to pummel him some more.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh police are called, but it's 1903, so no charges are filed.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Also, Clark, who was the player manager at that point, he plays in the game that day, battered face and all, because again, 1903.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you gotta get paid, Tim.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, so yeah, and who knows?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, the the the way that that story's told is like this guy, Bowerman, has a very short fuse, and he confronts Clark and he's like, I know you told him that I said that bad thing, and Clark's just like, no, I didn't.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, I promised Frank.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't say anything, but I like you said Frank Clark was popping.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I I imagine that that escalated quickly.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: So all right, let's zip way ahead in time for another controversy involving these two teams.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: So on September 2nd, 1991, the Pirates are playing the now San Francisco Giants at Candlestick Park.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_05: The San Francisco Baseball Giants?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: The San Francisco Baseball Giants.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Bobby Bonia is out to play for the Pirates, and the count is three and one.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Giants pitcher Jeff Brantley throws Bonilla, what Bonilla thinks is ball four, but umpire Eric Gregg calls it strike two.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, do you remember Eric Gregg?
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_05: He had a very large strike zone.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_05: He was a large, he was a large person with a large strike zone.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_05: Is it is he the one that's infamous for that Marlins game in the World Series?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's him.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and he he he was around for years.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: He was a very recognizable umpire throughout the 80s and 90s, very um large gentleman, kind of imposing, very easily recognizable anytime he was behind the plate.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_05: Besides the fact that like you could throw it into the stands and he might call it a strike.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_05: That's him.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: So so Bonia and Greg have words, and then Bonia flies out the center on the next pitch.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: And on his way back to the dugout, Bonilla has even more words for Greg, and Greg throws him out of the game.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Fair enough.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Bonia, of course, is not happy about that, to which Greg says, quote, you know, you used to be a nice guy, but now that you make all that money, you think you can do anything?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And that really sets Bonilla off, yeah.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and he makes some contact with Greg as his teammates are trying to hold him back.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: After the game, Bonia says, quote, every once in a while, Bobby Bo blows his coal.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_05: Who's saying this is Bobby Bonia talking about something to third person?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_05: Oh wow.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_05: Every once in a while, Bobby Bonilla gets paid.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_05: Actually, Bobby Bonia Day's coming up very soon.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I should reference that later too.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: Spoiler.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone, every once in a while, Bobby Blow blows his coal.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: Me and Eric are fine.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: And Eric Gregg says, yeah, we're not fine.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_05: Every once in a while, Eric Gregg calls a strike.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Eric, Eric Gregg says, Yeah, I I don't like uh balls, and I'm also not fine.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: He says that Bonilla embarrassed himself and his team, and he was going to send tape of the incident to the National League to try to get Bonilla punished.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: That never happens.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Also, people in Pittsburgh are critical of Greg for not just walking away.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Postgazette columnist Ron Cook, Steve's favorite writer, even writes that Greg should be suspended as well.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_05: Hmm.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_05: That's interesting.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, maybe it was one of those one.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, without video of it, you know, maybe Greg could have just like be like, okay, chill, you know, it's one bad call, you know.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_05: Or I thought it was a strike, you thought it was a ball, you know, that didn't cause you to fly out.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't like you struck out on another questionable call.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Right, but that would have been ball four.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it wouldn't have been an out.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: And there is video of it actually, Steve.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: We'll post it on the Facebook page.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: But but um he it doesn't really matter because you can't hear what's said.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and so if Bonia starts arguing and Greg throws him out, and then Greg, you know, basically makes this, you know, you used to be a nice guy, but now you know they they gave you this big contract, and you know, now you think you think you're above everybody.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_05: That's not that I don't think that's all that insulting.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's not all that insulting, but you're you're not supposed to be the one that escalates things when you're the umpire.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's the problem.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like, think about like a video, like you've seen these videos of like somebody going off on like the McDonald's counter person.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's why you can't if you're the person that somebody's going off on in that position, you can't be the one that you know then throws an insult back and escalates things.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're supposed to try to to calm things down, and that's really what an umpire should be doing.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why Ron Cook and others thought Greg should be suspended, but he doesn't get suspended.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that 1991 game, as we said, takes place in San Francisco because the Giants had left New York three decades earlier.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: And Steve, did you know that the final ever game for the Giants in New York was played on September 29th, 1957, against your Pittsburgh Pirates?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_05: In the polo grounds?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: In the polo grounds.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_05: Have you ever seen the dimensions of the polo grounds?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's really funky, isn't it?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's like 220 down the lines and then like 450 to dead center.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_05: It looks like a big bathtub.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's wild.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's old timey ballparks or old timey.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_05: And the Mets, the Mets played there after like their first season or two.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you saw my fun fact.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that was gonna be my fun fact at the end.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm sorry, I watched a video on like the you know, polo grounds like a week ago.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: Completely.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't I didn't even know you were gonna talk about it, quite honestly.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's that's really cool.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Good that you knew that because I I I thought that was really interesting.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: I did not realize this was actually not the final game for the polo grounds, it was the final game for the Giants.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: But you're right, the Mets play their the first couple of seasons before Shay Stadium is completed.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: I never knew that before.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_05: I think the Steelers played football games there.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I wanna Yeah, I believe you're right against the Giants.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_05: Football Giants.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: So so that last game, the the Pirates actually win that game 9-1.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Only 11,000 people show up to the polo grounds to say goodbye.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: They rush the field after the final out to take a bunch of souvenirs.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: One elderly fan walks onto the field with a large piece of cloth with the words a Giants fan of 55 years says so long.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_05: What year was that again?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: 57.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_05: 57.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_05: So, yeah, they moved to California.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_05: Them and the Dodgers, yeah.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some other interesting facts about that last game.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Bob friend, who's pitching in that game for the Pirates, he gets married the very next day to Patricia Covel, a nurse who worked for the Pirates team doctor, and the two of them are together for the next 61 years until Friend's death in 2019.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_05: That's nice.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_05: Look, we have some love.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_05: We found love in our rivalry.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh also it's the final game for the New York Giants, but it's also the final game for Clyde Sucforth, a pirates coach and scout who was retiring.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And for his retirements, the Pirates give Clyde an engraved witch wristwatch and a TV set, which in 1957 sounds like worth a lot of money.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was gonna say that'd probably be a big deal in 1957.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: I just think about the Baines family getting their TV set in 1955.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: That was a big deal.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't have two TVs, he's joking.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody has two.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe Clyde did after the pirates gave him.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: So so you might be asking who the heck is Clyde Sucforth and why would the Pirates give him a TV?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: And why would I care that this is his final ever game.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that way he could watch the 1960 World Series in a couple years.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_05: He could.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_05: After he waited for the TV to warm up for 10 minutes.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_05: Right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So Clyde took fourth actually a pretty important figure in Pirates history.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: A few years earlier, Branch Rickey, who is the jam of the Pirates, had sent Clyde to Canada to scout a minor league pitcher.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: But when he gets there, he's no longer interested in the pitcher.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: Instead, he thinks the Pirates need to go get the right fielder, a guy named Roberto Clemente.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: And Branch Rickey asks the other scouts, you know, okay, did any of you guys see this Clemente kid too?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the scouts says, Oh yeah, I saw him.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't like him.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And also, he doesn't really have a good arm.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_05: Well, what was that guy like watching somebody else?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that Roberto Clemente.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_05: I thought you meant that other guy named Roberto Clemeni.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, so yeah, not not not great, uh, not great intel that Brent Ricky's getting here.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Fortunately, he trusts Clyde Sukforth because they had been together in Brooklyn.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: So the Pirates pick Clemente in the roll five draft.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: But hang on, because that's not Clyde Sukforth's only pirates contribution.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: In August of 1957, the Pirates, who are pretty bad at this time, they fire their manager and they offer the job to Clyde Sukforth.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: He actually turns it down, though, because, like we said, he had planned to retire from coaching at the end of that season.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: But he says, you know, you know who you guys should hire instead of me?
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: This guy named Danny Murtaugh.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_05: Clyde, Clyde, Clyde made some good calls here.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and the Pirates don't like that suggestion.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: They don't think Murtaugh can handle the players.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: But Clyde says, quote, I talked them out of that.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And Murtaugh becomes the new manager.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's responsible for both Danny Murtaugh and Roberto Clemente being on the Pirates.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_05: In like two World Series indirectly.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's pretty cool.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Let's let's move into the 21st century now and talk about a time when these two teams were making a number of trades with each other.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not gonna we're gonna talk about not one, not two.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's like three really stupid trades that the Pirates made with the Giants in the 2000s.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_05: All right there, LeBron.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: So the first bad trade comes in 2001 when the Pirates trade Jason Schmidt and John Vanderval to the Giants.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: For Armando Rios and Ryan Vogel song.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_05: Was there no bag of magic beans available?
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're right.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's the only trade that might have been worse.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because this is a fleecing.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Schmidt turns into an all-star and Cy Young candidate in San Francisco.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, very he he has like a nice career.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, he is a yeah, really nice career.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: His his 2003 season, where he goes 17-5, uh, what's the 2.34 ERA, is one of the best in recent Giants history.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: Rios and Vogel Song do very little in Pittsburgh.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: We'll actually talk a little bit more about Vogel Song later, but just a terrible trade for the Pirates.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: But hey, they aren't done because in 2007, the Pirates inexplicably deal Rogi Davis to the Giants for pitcher Matt Morris.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: And okay, this was one of those trade deadline deals where the Giants are way out of the pennant race, and Matt Morris is a veteran pitcher with a high salary that they want to dump.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: And and Morris is older at this point, but he had been an all-star earlier in his career.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe he could bring some veteran leadership to a team headed to the playoffs, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: You see those kinds of trades all the time in baseball, even in hockey.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, hey, we're we're on our way to a postseason appearance.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe this guy has a little bit of juice left and he can just provide some some veteran leadership, right?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_05: Who's the guy for the penguins?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_05: Hockey dad or whatever was his uh yeah, Matt Matt Collins.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Matt Collins.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: Guys like that.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: So perfect, yeah, exactly.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: So so so why is this a bad trade?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in 2007, pirates aren't going to the playoffs.
• 26:18
  unknown: Right.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: They're way out of the pennant race, too.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And they're not really spenders, so why in God's name would they trade for an aging picture pitcher with a big salary?
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not sure we'll ever have an answer to that question, but I have a theory.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: And and stick with me here because it's a little out there of a theory.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: But David Littlefield is a general manager of the Pirates at this point.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time, he was getting a ton of pressure from fans and maybe even from ownership.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: And remember, this is 2007.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is the year that the ownership sort of officially transferred from McClatchy to nutting.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: So who knows what was happening there.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: He bottom line, I think Littlefield knew his job was in jeopardy.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I really think I really think this was a middle finger to everybody.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, you said I never make big deals or bring in high-priced talent.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, watch this.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_05: And it's like, yeah, Matt Morris.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_05: I did he even pitch for the Pirates?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, let's let's talk about that.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_05: He wasn't very good.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: So an 11 starts for the Pirates in 2007.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Morris is 3-4 with a 6.10 ERA.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_05: Solid.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_05: Well, worth it.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_05: Worth every penny.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, hang on, Steve.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: He comes back the next season, right?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's okay because the next season he goes 0-4 with a 9.67 ERA.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_05: Well, there's improvement.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, oh, in the wrong direction.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_05: And you still gotta pay him all that money.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_05: Like I maybe San Francisco was San Francisco paying a lot of his salary or something?
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: I I know.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: It was a trade.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's why they made the trade was the double.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_05: Like it seems stupid.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: Like, why wouldn't you like make okay, we'll pay like a million or two and you pay the rest of it.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why would you even want a player like that?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like you mentioned Matt Collin.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Imagine if like the Buffalo Sabres would have been in last place that year and picked up Matt Collin.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why?
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: There's no point to that.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and and like I said, the only thing I can figure is Littlefield was just like it was it was just a some kind of Hail Mary thing where he was like, here, look, I can make big deals.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, he gets fired.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that one's worse than the Jason Schmidt trade or I mean it it's tough because you know, and they Roggie Davis, the guy that the pirates traded for Morris.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't really do much, does he?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: He doesn't really do much.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's there it's kind of an apples and oranges, Steve, because in the Jason Schmidt trade, it's like you gave up on a guy that became a huge star in the Matt Morris trade.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: You didn't really give up anything, but you took on a bunch of salary for no reason for a guy that's stunk.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe he just wanted to waste like Kevin McClatchy's money on this time.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like I said, that that my best theory is it's a middle finger.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's my that's the only plausible explanation for why you would do that kind of trade.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: So let's complete the Troy Fecta with a two uh 2010 trade where the Pirates sent pitcher Javier Lopez to the Giants for outfielder John Balker and pitcher Joe Martinez.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Lopez helps the Giants win three World Series titles and it is in their team Hall of Fame.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Check out this stat, Steve.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Javier Lopez faces 47 batters in the postseason for the Giants and allows five hits.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, geez.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's the very definition of clutch.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: He becomes so popular and respected in San Francisco that he actually joins their broadcast team after he retires.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank God we got rid of him.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean and yeah, thank God we got rid of him.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And how about the guys the Pirates got in return?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: Joe Martinez pitches in just five games for the Pirates.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: John Balker has just 86 at bats for the Pirates, but but Steve, John Balker does hit two home runs.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: Ooh, well, that makes it all worth it.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Hashtag winning.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah, that they would have been better off with the bag of magic beans at that point.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that was that was it's just it's interesting that they I mean the pirates that was a bad era for the pirates in general.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: But it was like it I I guess the Giants just knew it's like, well, we need players.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's who do we who we call?
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Pirates.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: Pirates will give us pirates are like their feeder system at that time.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: So all right, we'll wrap up the interesting story section with an incident during a May 26, 1958 game at Forbes Field.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it all starts in the fourth inning when Giants pitcher Ruben Gomez beans Bill Mazarowski.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: That draws a warning from the home plate umpire.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this is in the era when pitchers still had to bat.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: So in the next inning, Pirates pitcher Vern Law throws a high fastball that sends Gomez to the ground.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: Pirates manager Danny Murtaugh, who we talked about earlier, comes out of the dugout and starts having words with Gomez, and the next thing you know, the two of them are going at it.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Murtaugh throws a couple of punches at Gomez, and Gomez, who is still holding his bat, tries to hit Murtaugh with the bat.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_04: Jeez.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: By this time, a whole bunch of other players join the fight.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: Fights even break out in the stands.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's I don't know why.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_05: But were there that many Giants fans in Pittsburgh?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_05: I came all the way to Pittsburgh by train.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_05: It's been a three-day cross-country journey to get in a fight.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that happened.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like that was like an episode of The Simpsons.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, yeah.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_05: We'll show you what a baseball fight's all about.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Orlando Cepeda also picks up a bat and starts charging after Murtaugh.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it is with Giants players wanting to use bats as weapons, but Willie Mays actually tackles him.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Pins him down to stop him.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Good for you, Willie Mays.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: Tackle his teammate to prevent him from presumably committing a murder.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: The police are actually have to come in and break everything up.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: The police are called, Steve.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_05: To an on-field incident.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's how bad it got.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: The police have to come intervene in a Pirates Giants game.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, that's that's interesting.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_05: You don't see that too much anymore.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: You don't.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: All right, our next section is devoted to notable players who played for both of these teams.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we're going to start with MVPs because, Steve, did you know that four different National League MVPs played for both the Pirates and the Giants during their careers?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to ask you if you can name them in just a second, but first I'm going to give you a hint, okay?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: So four MVPs played for both teams.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: One of these guys won the MVP award with both the Pirates and Giants.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Two of these guys won the MVP with just the Pirates.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: And one of them won the MVP while playing for a completely different team.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: I know Barry Bonds is definitely one of them.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: That is definitely one of them.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_05: So the guys that won it with the Giants?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Two guys.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you got the guy that won it with both teams.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Two guys won it with just the pirates.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_05: That's a good question.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_05: Bill Madlock, maybe?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: No, he played for Oakland, didn't he?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: He did play for both teams, but he was not an MVP.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Alright.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: So so let's let's start with Barry Bonds.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: He is baseball's all-time home run king.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: He played seven seasons for the Pirates, which he wins two MVP awards, then 15 seasons for the Giants, and which he wins five more MVP awards.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: People don't like Barry Bonds very much, and deservedly so.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: He used steroids, so the numbers are all tainted.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: We did a whole episode about him.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: The more I think about Barry Bonds, Steve, I it it makes me sad because I still think you can still argue that he's one of the best ball play best baseball players ever.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: And like imagine his legacy had he been able to overcome some of those demons, not feel like he had to treat everybody like crap or use performance enhancing drugs.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: Would he be a Michael Jordan Tom Brady level icon had he not done those things?
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_05: I think no, because his attitude is so bad, and I don't see him ever changing his attitude.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_05: Like even Mark McGuire, people just kind of let him be.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they don't seem to like get on him too much.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_05: That's because you know, he's not as much a jerk.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_05: Like if Barry Bonds wasn't a jerk then like maybe, but it just doesn't seem like Barry can get up.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_05: Like Even with the steroids, I think people would let him slide.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, if he if he you're right.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's it's a combination of those two things, not just the steroids, it's the steroids and how he treated everybody because you're right, people are a lot more forgiving of like.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_05: Like even Jose Jose Kinseiko, who was a little bit of a jerk, like let him slide with stuff.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's a good point.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good point.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that's MVP number one.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: MVP number two is this guy.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Deep to right field.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is this it?
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: Are we walking it off?
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: Happy Memorial Day.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew McCuttson walks it off.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Ways the Jolly Roger.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_05: You'd think I would have remembered that.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_05: I didn't know I thought the Pirates drafted him.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_05: Or did they no, they traded him to San Francisco, didn't they?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates traded him to San Francisco.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you remember who they got in return?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_05: No, I don't.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: Brian Reynolds.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that was the Brian Reynolds trade.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates, of course, get Andrew McCutcheon back for a couple of seasons, and now he's gone again amidst you know some hurt feelings, but still I think one of the great players.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_05: He's uh he's at the end of his yeah, he he's probably gonna retire the show.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, he right.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those hurt feelings will subside.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he'll come back in ten years and everybody will be.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yay!
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 36:35
  unknown: Yeah.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: Do you do you think, Steve, he's one of the great players in Pirates history, regardless?
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: McCutchin?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah, he's up there.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I mean, I don't know if he's top ten, but probably pretty close, maybe like eight or nine.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's he's he's up there for sure.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_05: I mean maybe I don't know.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know if I'd put him in top five, but like somewhere between five and ten.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_05: Because like, what do you got?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_05: Clementy, Stargle, Wagner.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you you can't put him in that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: You can't put him in that tier, but you can put him right right underneath that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good call.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the the other guy that won MVP for the pirates that later played for the Giants, Dick Groat.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I didn't know Dick Groat played for the Giants.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I I did not know that either until I did this research for this episode.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: He's the 1960 National League MVP for the Pirates and he finished his care finished his career in San Francisco.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then the fourth guy, I don't think you would have ever gotten this in a million years.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's Bob Elliott.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, Bob, yeah.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_05: The natural man.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: He's a really good third baseman for the Pirates in the 1940s.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: He's a four-time four-time All-Star for the Bucs.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And in 1947, the Pirates make a really bad trade, sending him to the Braves for Billy Herman.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: Now, Billy Herman is a Hall of Fame baseball player, but in 1947, he's 38 years old.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And at the very, very end of his career, even Billy Herman doesn't like the trade.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_02: He says, quote, they've gone and traded the whole team on me.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: So he doesn't like that he's coming to the Pirates that are now depleted of talent because they traded away Bob Elliott.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Bob Elliott, meanwhile, is named National League MVP and leads the Braves to the World Series and then later plays for the Giants.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_05: What year was that?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: That was 47.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_05: So is that Boston Braves?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that would have been the Boston Braves.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: So there's your four MVPs who played for both teams.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk about some other guys who played for both teams.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: Cake Beckley was not an MVP because back when he played, there was no such award.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: But he it was a Hall of Fame first baseman who played for both teams.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: If you listen to Steve's episode about that terrible 1890 Pirates team, yeah.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_02: You'll remember Beckley is the guy who literally said he was only in baseball for the money.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Very open about that.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_05: It was refreshingly honest.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: Refreshingly honest.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, some other guys, Rick Rushel was an all-star pitcher.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_05: Big Daddy.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Big Daddy Rushel.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: All-star pitcher for both teams in the 80s.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Maddie Alu spends six seasons in San Francisco and then he plays for the Pirates, doesn't he?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he's traded to the Pirates where he wins a batting title in 1966.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_05: And they had his son, but they traded him, didn't they?
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: So so yeah, his his nephew, Moises Alu, also plays for the Pirates, and then much later in his career ends up in San Francisco.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_05: Six Degrees of a Lou.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: Six Degrees of a Lou.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, here's another fun fact about Matty Alou, Steve.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen the movie Major League?
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: You do you remember the character Pedro Serrano?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_05: Is that Matty Alou?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's loosely based on Matty Olu because it was rumored that he was really superstitious and he would talk to his bats.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: Just like Pedro.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_05: I would have said, I don't want to give if you don't give me a home run, I give you up.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_05: Joe Boo.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know about me now, Joe Boo.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: I do I say curse word.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: I do it myself.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_05: Could we get him a live chicken?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_05: Can we get Maddie a little live chicken?
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be great.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he started on Bell Montra bringing him a bucket of KFC before a big game in the 60s.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um let's see.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Let's current current Pirates catcher, Joey Bart.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: The Giants traded him back to the Bucs back in 2024, so he's played for both teams.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Ed De Haney came to the Pirates by way of the Giants.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: We did a whole episode on him called His Mind Is Thought to Be Deranged.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really dark story about a guy who had quite the nervous breakdown, which not only literally cost the Pirates a championship, but more significantly destroyed quite a few lives.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's a sad but really interesting story, so go back and listen to that episode if you haven't already.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Travis Ishikawa is a journey journeyman first baseman who had been with the Giants, then some other teams, then signs with the Pirates in 2014.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: But he doesn't last very long in Pittsburgh.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates dump him mid-season, so he goes back to San Francisco, where later that very same year this happens.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Travis Ishikawa hits one and the right.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: The Giants win the pennant!
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_04: The Giants win the pennant.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_04: The Giants uh not quite.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Not quite, but I I always thought that was called a Joe Buck.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_05: He threw it in there.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a good paying paying homage to the great call from, you know, what, 60 years earlier or whatever.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my favorite name on this list of guys who played for both teams is this next guy.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's Crazy Schmidt, another 19th century player who Steve talked about in that 1890 Pirates episode.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he earned that nickname for doing some crazy stuff both on and off the field.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Here's a great description from the old timing newspaper.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: Quote, Schmidt's running fire of comment and sarcasm at both the umpire and the players, and his pantomimic expressions, including shaking his fist savagely at teammate Duncan when he failed to cover first base, kept the crowd roaring with laughter.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you know, you gotta entertain the fans.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this guy was basically doing like Savannah Banana Stick under 20 years early.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_05: Well, you know, you gotta, you know, the fans paid a nickel to be there, and you gotta give them their money's worth.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Give them their nickel's worth.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 42:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Crazy Schmidt also kept playing baseball well after his career ended.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, on the 1940 census, Schmidt, who is 74 years old at this point, lists his occupation as quote, baseball player.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_05: He wasn't retired.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_05: That's somebody who listed his occupation as well.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_05: That's crazy, Tim.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if he wrote his name as Crazy Schmidt on his list, too.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Mr.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_05: Crazy.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_05: Uh oh no.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_05: Is that your first name?
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Steve, here's a guy you and I often talk about, Jim Gott.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, oh yeah.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the Pirates claim him off waivers from the Giants, and he goes on to set the Pirates' single season save record in 1988.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_05: Didn't he I I thought he played for the Dodgers.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_05: I remember him playing for the Dodgers.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe that was after the Pirates.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he may have.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean, I that's he came directly from the Giants when the Pirates got him, but he played for the Pirates.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_05: That I remember him being a Mormon for some reason.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 44:00
  unknown: No.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: I did not know that about him.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he said that single season save record.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's been broken a number of times, most recently by current Pirates record holder Mark Melanson, who posts 51 saves in 2015 and also later plays for the Giants.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I remember Tony Kornheiser was mad when they chaded Mark Melanson from the Nationals to the Giants.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_05: He loved Mark Melanson.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_05: Mark Melanson's probably like the last really, really good closer the Pirates have had.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, if and to get to 51 saves, you have to be on a good team, which a 2015 team was too.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um Al Oliver, Scoop, seven-time All-Star and member of the Pirates 1971 World Series team.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_02: He plays in San Francisco near the end of his career.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Jose Guillon, remember him, Steve?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_05: Vaguely.
• 44:53
  unknown: Yeah.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: He uh he was a right fielder, had an arm very similar to Clemente.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people would compare him to Clemente.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_05: He couldn't hit.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: Played for both of these franchises and like 23 other teams.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_05: Does that really I don't think that really counts to him?
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_02: He was also linked to and suspended for using performance-enhancing drugs.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: In 2010, while on the Giants, the DEA intercepts a package of 50 HTH syringes, headed to Jose Guinn's house, and that's pretty much curtains for his MLB career.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_05: That were going to somebody else.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_05: He was holding them for a friend.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm sure that story worked.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_02: We talked earlier about Ryan Vogel song.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Starts out with the Giants and then is sent to Pittsburgh as part of that doomed Jason Schmidt trade.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: By 2007, it looks like his MLB career is over.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: So he goes to play in Japan.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: And he plays well enough there that four years later, guess who signs him?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: The San Francisco Giants.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_05: He actually has a decent little comeback here, doesn't he?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Good good memory.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: He does.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: He actually makes an all-star game with San Francisco and he wins two World Series.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_05: Sorry.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_05: That's hilarious.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: In 2016, guess who signs him as a free agent?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Probably the Pirates.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: The Pittsburgh Pirates.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: So here's Ryan Vogelsong's career.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: He goes from San Francisco to Pittsburgh to Japan, back to San Francisco, then back to Pittsburgh, and that's his entire baseball career.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_05: I wonder who he played for in Japan.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe it was like one team too.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a good question.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe it was the the the Giants team in Japan.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_05: The Tokyo Giants, isn't there?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe he played for them too.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: That would be consistent, at least.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think there's a Pirates team in Japan.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe there's like a Buccaneers or something like close to it.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Swatch bucklers or something.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about trades where the Pirates got fleeced.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: Here's one where the Giants got fleeced.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: Bill Madlock is traded from the Giants to the Pirates in the middle of the 1979 season for like nothing.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: Madlock helps the Pirates win the World Series that year and then proceeds to win two batting titles.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Why San Francisco traded him to us is a bit of a mystery because he had batted over 300 in his previous two seasons.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_05: He wasn't getting along with it.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_05: I thought that was because I think I remember that from the Dave Parker book.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_05: He wasn't getting along with them or something out there.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: I I think you're right.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're right because uh when the Pirates were actually um a little antsy about him.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, Parker stood up.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_05: Parker said, no, he's good, you gotta get him.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: Parker and Willie Starge will both.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Chuck Tanner actually asked them because they thought he was a loose cannon, and maybe you're right, that's why the Giants were like, you know, he's more troubled than he's worth.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, Parker, Parker's like, no, you gotta go get that guy.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_02: And Parker said, quote, everything changed when Madlock arrived in 79.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, when you get like a third power hitter, and yeah, heck yeah.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but hey, the Giants poach a free agent from that 1979 Pirates roster too.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's Rennie Stennett.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_05: Hey, the immortal Rennie Stennet.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_05: He wasn't a bad player.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_05: He was pretty good.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_02: He he was certainly a decent player.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: The Giants, though, give him like a massive contract.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think this is one of those.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, he was on the World Series team.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, he must be.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you kind of overestimated his role and talent, maybe a little bit.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like that, you know, the Raider sign Larry Brown kind of a thing.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, not that Rennie Stennet was like the hero of the game or anything, but they it was it was one of those kinds of things.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a popular move at the time in San Francisco, and it turns into a huge bust.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, he's out of Major League Baseball altogether just two years later, even though he's only 31 years old.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: But but Steve, hang on, there's a silver lining for Rennie Stenett.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Want to know why?
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_05: Why is that?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: So you referenced earlier the contract that the Mets gave Bobby Bonilla, where they kept paying him for years after he left.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, does Renny Stennet get like a contract like that?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: He gets deferred payments from the Giants all the way to the distant future of the year 2000.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_05: From like when, 1982?
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 1980.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's not bad.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_05: I need to I need to get a job like that where I get like paid for like 15 years for doing jack poop.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_05: Like I need I need my own Bobby Bonia day.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_05: It doesn't have to be a million dollars.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_05: Could you imagine just like getting like$70,000?
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_05: Like, yeah, that's like a year's salary.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_05: That's a decent salary from a you know, like it's not like quit your job money per se, but you could still work your job and like bank that every year and be sick, man.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: It'd be a nice little bonus to go on vacation every year or make some repairs to your house or whatever.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I would think that's yeah, even if you lost a fair amount in like you know, taxes.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, get good at baseball, Steve.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have have some team sign you to a really fat contract that that they overestimated, and then you'll be in that position.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe they'll start doing that just for average people like defer payments.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_05: We don't want to pay you like a bunch of salary.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_05: Well, that's because we're at will employees, so I guess that doesn't work.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: You need a contract for that.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: Darn it, Tim.
• 50:29
  unknown: Darn it.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh well.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: Someday.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Always dream.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh here's a fun fact.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: Stennet is best known for accomplishing the extremely rare feat of getting seven hits in one game, which he did as a member of the Pirates against the Cubs in 1975.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: Seven hits in a game.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: No one's able to replicate that feat until 2016, when Brandon Crawford becomes the first player since Rennie Stennet to get seven hits in a game.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Guess which game Brandon Crawford plays for.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_05: I do believe that would be your San Francisco baseball Giants.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: You got it.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: Connections all over the place.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_05: Woo!
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Bill Madlock and Rennie Stenett were not the only members of that 79 Pirates team to also play for the Giants.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: Phil Gardner, who recently passed away, he ends up in San Francisco about a decade later.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: Tim Foley had played for the Giants before coming to Pittsburgh.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: And Don Robinson has a distinction of pitching in the World Series for both of these teams, 1979 for the Pirates and 1989 for the Giants.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_05: Wow, Don Robinson was around that long.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was around for a while.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, I mean the Earthquake series, too, in 89.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yep, correct.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um couple more names on this list.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna hit these guys more quickly.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Goose Gossage pitched for both teams.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: That had to be late in his career.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he and he only played for the Pirates for that one season, too.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Vince DeMaggio, brother of Joe DiMaggio, played for both teams.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Hank O'Day, do you remember him, Steve?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: The umpire from that 1908 season, who was always in the middle of all those controversial games.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: Before he was an umpire, he was a player for both teams.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: And last but certainly not least, the legendary Johnny Dickshot played for the Pirates from 1936 to 1938 and for the Giants in 1939.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_05: That's a heck of a name he's got going there for him.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't I couldn't complete the list without Johnny Dickshot.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_05: You wonder if they changed their name just to like Shot.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_05: We're just going with Shot.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think I think that's the time when you might want to get some legally legally changed your name, but whatever.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_05: Or maybe keep it and like make everybody else a deal.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_05: It's their problem.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, true.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Alright.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: Last section in this um episode is big games, and there's no bigger games, obviously, than a postseason game, and these two teams have played each other twice in the postseason.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: First time is the 1971 National League Championship Series.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of Hall of Famers playing in this one, Steve.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: We got Willie Stargel, Gaylord Perry, Bill Mazarowski, Juan Marichel, Roberto Clemeni, Willie Mays, and Willie McCovey.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_05: Holy cow.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: And and like, to be fair, you know, guys like Maz and Mays were way past their prime at this point.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but that's still pretty good collection of talent.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: So this is not a good matchup for the Pirates because during the regular season, these two teams had played each other 12 times, and the Giants had won nine of those twelve.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: Nine times.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, nine out of twelve.
• 53:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: The the Giants win game one, the Pirates win game two, and a game where Bob Robertson hits three home runs for the Pirates.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Robinson actually ends up batting 438 in that series.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_02: So now we have the pivotal game three at Three River Stadium.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: And remember back then the NLCS five games wasn't.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's only a five-game series.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: So game three when you're tied one-to-one is pretty important.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: The Giants have a huge advantage for this game because they are starting Hall of Famer and 10-time All-Star Juan Marischal.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: And you may be asking yourself, well, why did the Giants wait until game three to start their best pitcher?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's actually because they didn't clinch their division until the final regular season game and they needed him for that.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: So then he had to wait a few days before he could pitch again.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when you watch retrospectives on that series, people say, oh, the Giants end up losing because they can only start Juan Marichal for that one game.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: But again, the series is tied, so if Juan Marichal wins this start, then all the Giants have to do is win one out of the last two, and they'll be in the World Series.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: The game is tied one-two-one in the bottom of the eighth inning.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: And Ricky Hebner is at the plate against Marischal, and I'm going to let Bob Prince tell you what happens next.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: He hits one out of here now.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_00: This would be some kind of pandemonium.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: And why not?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the one-two pitch from Marichelle.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a ball hit deep to right field.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_00: That goes by the balance.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: And he can't get it.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_05: Over Bobby Bonds, too.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_05: Lots of pirate connections there.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: That wins game three.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: The pirates take game four and they win the pennant.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the guy that makes the final out is actually Bobby Bonds.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Barry's dad.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_05: He's very bitter over that.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sure he is.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: Fast forward 43 years to the other team, the other time that these two teams meet in the postseason.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's the 2014 wildcard game at PNC Park.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's Madison Bagardenner for the Giants versus Edison Volquez for the Pirates.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: And this one isn't even close.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: The Giants win eight to nothing.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, I I I wanted to say more about this one, Steve, but I like there's not much to say.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_05: Like Volquas have been good that season.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_05: But it's Madison Bumgarner in the postseason.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_05: It ain't happening, people.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_05: It would have been really something special if the Pirates would have won that game.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it was eight to nothing, but it could have been one to nothing where the Giants got a run in the top of the first game.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_05: It wouldn't have mattered.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_05: Bum guard puts a complete game shutout.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and then he goes on to be both the NLCS and World Series MVP that year as the Giants go on to beat Kansas City for their eighth, and as the time of this recording, most recent championship.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, he was he was just unhittable.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: And like I said, I I don't know what else to say about that game because that's really the story.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: That the Pirates faced a pitcher that they couldn't hit.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, we kind of covered him in the uh people that killed Pittsburgh kind of episode.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_05: So yeah.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so that's the two times those teams met in the postseason.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: So that's our episode on the surprising history between the Pirates and Giants.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: Steve, were you surprised?
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_05: I was.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_05: I was shocked.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_05: Shocked that that home run went over Bobby Bonds' head.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks everybody so much for listening.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we really appreciate everybody's support of this show.
• 57:22
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• 57:25
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• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you again, and we will catch you next time.