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Connecting to Lead and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Sabrina Shafer · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
• 0:08
  things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:11
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
• 0:36
  Hi.
• 0:37
  It's Roxanne Durgesh.
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  I'm a mental health and wellness specialist and a corporate leadership executive coach.
• 0:43
  My new book, return on relationships, launching on June 10 2023, introduces the concept of
• 0:51
  return on relationship a new metric for business growth.
• 0:55
  Grab a copy.
• 0:56
  Let me walk you through how to be a better leader and provide you with exclusive tools to
• 1:00
  guide you in building your authentic leadership legacy.
• 1:03
  You can find the link in the show notes to pre order your copy today.
• 1:07
  Hope you enjoy.
• 1:09
  Hi, everyone.
• 1:09
  It's Roxanne Derhodge.
• 1:10
  Thanks for tuning in again to the today to authentic living with Roxanne.
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  Today, I have a a colleague that I think I've just recently met.
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  We've been spending a lot of time together Sabrina Shaver Sabrina, has a quite a
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  fascinating background, that intrigued me, and, we recently did an event for international
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  women's day with, women, younger, women, I would say, mostly across size and sectors of
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  companies that were talking about work life balance, which was actually quite amazing.
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  So her background is she's not only a corporate litigator, but she's a behave she studied
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  behavior analysis, and I'm gonna be intrigued by that story about what kind of got her into
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  doing what she does.
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  And and she works with teams.
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  She's, working to figure out what's most autonomous ways that teams can work together,
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  and she's predominantly in the tech sector.
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  So Sabrina, thanks so much for taking the time to spend with us today.
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  Oh, Roxanne.
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  You are wonderful.
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  Thank you so much for having me.
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  Like you said, we've been doing a couple different speaking engagements together lately,
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  and each topic is more riveting than the next.
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  This is something that couldn't be more relevant right now.
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  It's a passion of both of ours, so I'm excited to dive in.
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  It'll be fun.
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  So tell me tell me a little bit about you, like, in in what's, I mean, law.
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  You you know, nothing against, lawyers.
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  I've worked a lot with a lot of governments.
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  Tell me about what's what was your family into the legal profession.
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  How did you kind of decide to and of all things litigation?
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  Well, how did you end up there?
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  Right.
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  Not even close.
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  So, you know, kinda truncating the whole story.
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  I'm an immigrant.
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  So I was born and raised in Germany, moved here.
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  In elementary school, have the weird accent, and crooked bangs the whole bit, you know, the
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  leader hosing and everything.
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  And, You know, I think part of that instilled such an enormous pride, nationality and work
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  ethic and loyalty to those around me.
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  I also had to learn how to build extended families immediately because all of my family
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  was in Germany, and we were in the US.
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  And so I immediately had to kinda learn how do I make my second grade teacher, my aunt, and my
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  mentor becomes, like, the grandma figure.
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  And so I started learning that I, you know, could pull people into my life and they could
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  They could fill these roles that maybe weren't as traditional, and how they got there, but
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  maybe would be able to teach me skills and feed into me in ways that I didn't necessarily have
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  in, you know, kind of my situation.
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  And that has, you know, that has been my number one secret to success.
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  I'll start right there.
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  It has nothing to do with me.
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  It's a 100% the people I surround myself with.
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  You included, by the way.
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  So, you know, I I dug into school.
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  I love school.
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  I was the kid who would make my own homework when we didn't have homework.
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  And I had, like, an overhead projector as a toy.
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  I was just that kid.
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  I did summer school for fun.
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  So, anyway, so I ended up skipping when I was in 6th grade.
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  They wanted to put me in high school.
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  My parents thought that might be a little bit too much kind of too.
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  Anyway, so I ended up skipping 7th grade, and then I did end up skipping another grade once I
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  went to high school.
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  So Starting college very early, I had to figure out how am I gonna pay for it because there's
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  no trust fund.
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  There's my parents didn't even know what an application to college was.
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  They just The expectation is you're going to college.
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  You'll get straight a's and figure it out, kid.
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  So I give my driver's license.
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  I start college, and I'm like, well, I gotta pay for it.
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  So I started a company.
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  All in the same year.
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  16 was a big year for me.
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  And, I started working with children, primarily on the autism spectrum, but with more of a
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  behavioral component and then just became obsessed.
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  Just absolutely obsessed neuroscience, behavioral science, psychology as a whole,
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  interests me, and I think a lot of ways, has impacted the rest of my career.
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  So I was very, you know, I I ended up you know, kinda transforming that.
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  Again, secret to my success.
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  I was sixteen who's gonna listen to a six year old punk, but I ended up surrounding myself
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  brilliant people with their master's degrees and plus and all these kinds of things and
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  created almost some very similarly modeled after the cancer treatment of of America.
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  And so I had a little bit of speech, a little bit of occupational therapy, a little bit of
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  applied behavioral analysis, a little bit of verbal behavior, said all these different, you
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  know, experts around me and was obsessed with learning and and the clinic ended up being
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  incredibly successful And then I went on to law school and decided, it would be fun to
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  litigate.
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  I don't know why.
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  I have no idea.
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  It turns out it was.
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  It was a blast.
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  But I was working with and representing different tech companies.
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  And one of the companies we've been incredibly successful with some, you know, work we had
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  been doing.
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  And they said, would you ever come to the sales leadership side?
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  And quarter after quarter passed in No.
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  No.
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  I'm an attorney.
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  No.
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  No.
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  I'm an attorney.
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  And then finally, they said, okay.
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  You write your contract, and so I did.
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  And I wrote a great contract, and they they signed it.
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  In the rest of history.
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  And, I joke be mostly because it's completely true, these 3 careers are exactly the same.
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  It's just a different name.
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  It's understanding people.
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  It's understanding what motivates people and how to get them doing more of what you want
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  them to do, less of what you don't want them to do in working together better and faster than
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  they have been before.
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  That's it in a nutshell.
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  I'm curious, right, because you talk working a lot of with autism and, you know, we talk so
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  much with neurodiversity.
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  In that role, What did you learn about neurodiverse?
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  Like you said, people are people, and we all wanna do really, really well.
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  That potentially you kind of foss pollinated with what you do today.
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  Well, so much now in the tech industry, and we have a very, very neurodiverse team.
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  You know, at continuum.
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  One of the things I instantly learned, because I worked with a fair amount of nonverbal people
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  which is very different than they don't have thoughts and feelings and opinions.
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  They just sometimes people with a Lexia, for instance.
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  Their brain wasn't communicating with their mouth, and they could have full on sentences.
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  I mean, some of these people have even gone on to write books and beautiful poetry and all
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  these things.
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  They just can't verbalize what's going on in their brain.
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  And so what I instantly found is that verbal communication is not the only way we
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  communicate.
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  And then, once I was able to tap into that, I think that was the secret to my success back
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  then, was I could almost anticipate when when a child was gonna do something because I knew
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  their behavior so well.
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  Now granted my job was to analyze behavior.
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  So I got kinda good at that, but You know, and then understanding what motivates people.
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  Again, a lot of this nonverbal language, and components to human behavior that are
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  incredible indicators.
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  And still one of my favorite things to this day.
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  It's called the behavioral panel on YouTube.
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  They analyze different inter interviews just based on their behavior and, you know, blink
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  rates and you know, if they touched parts of their face, all that kind of stuff.
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  So, you know, it it taught me really about the power of non verbal communication and being
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  able to read and anticipate those, and how you use that to create bonds.
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  In relationships again without using a word, you know, and a lot of times I work with
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  minority students who maybe didn't necessarily speak English, and I was helping them learn
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  English and social cues, all that kind of stuff.
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  And to be able to connect with somebody when you don't speak the same language is such a
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  beautiful thing that you realize how little we need language for that human element to still
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  show up?
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  Absolutely.
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  And I would think in the tech sector, and, I mean, obviously, you can you can share with me,
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  right, a lot of people on the spectrum potentially have a phenomenal qualities that,
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  you know, say somebody that was not neurodiverse couldn't you know, focus at that
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  intently.
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  I have one of my best friends, her son is autistic.
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  And so of course, we've been friends for 30 years and, you know, didn't know.
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  And then she went through the whole, you know, grieving process or whatever.
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  But as this young man has grown, the intricate you know, there's a I think it was called
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  connects or whatever, and we would buy him things and lead the room.
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  And would come back and within minutes, he would have these phenomenal things built, and
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  we'd be like, uh-huh, how?
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  How is that possible?
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  So it's interesting, especially with the with the sector that you are are in that that you
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  you must get a broad spectrum, not just about, like you said, diversity, with people not
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  speaking English, but just people with phenomenal qualities that to the quote and
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  quote average person, they would be like, oh, they're different or they're they're difficult
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  to deal with, or you know, they're not able to anticipate or whatever.
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  So when you're when you're dealing with teams, let's talk a little bit about that because my,
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  you know, when my world, obviously, in in my career as a psychotherapist, you know, I would
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  often say that, you know, just I prefer if I'm used to be in my earlier years getting a new
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  client to give me give me the video of them.
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  And I would turn off the the sound because that would help me really, really get a get a sense
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  of, that person because 95% behaviors, unconscious anyway.
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  How about that?
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  Wow.
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  Right?
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  Wow.
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  Versus kinda getting the, you know, the yay high files that if you were to read everything
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  about it, oftentimes people are pigeonholed or, you know, difficult or a diagnosis, that really
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  takes away from you getting to the to know the core person, which is what I I love that you're
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  saying that you, got to know, right, with with your path.
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  And it was, I mean, some of my best moments I had before I really got, you know, before my
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  career and IT really took off, at a extremely near death experience.
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  I was I was so certain I was dying.
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  I'm crying to the EMT.
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  Please don't let me die.
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  And I kinda had this moment of You know what?
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  If this is it, I'm really proud of what I did.
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  And the thing that stuck out to me the most is my work with people, with neurodiverse people.
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  And because it it there's such a sense of fulfillment and the human element becomes so
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  apparent in ways that we don't really expect, to your point, you know, a vast majority of of
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  the smartest people in our world, including you know, a lot presume or assume that, you know,
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  Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, you know, even Thomas Jefferson, ironically also or
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  interestingly also the one of the first people to get the MMR, but in any event, you know,
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  some of the smartest people in our world that have made massive contributions to society,
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  including some leaders that we could think of now, or somewhere on that spectrum or or
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  neurodiverse.
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  You know, I work a lot with human trafficking survivors.
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  And I just did a piece, with an amazing CEO, about how they're they're so uniquely equipped
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  because of their PTSD to, be exceptional at cybersecurity.
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  And understanding cybersecurity attacks and things like that because they're so attuned to
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  detail.
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  And they see things, and they they're good at watching just minor changes that could be a
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  threat.
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  And so it it's things like this where we don't realize the benefit until you kinda step back
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  and go, oh, wait a minute.
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  The same is for engineering.
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  The same is for building teams.
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  Not everybody can be the connector or the funny one or the whatever.
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  You know, the one who remembers that your daughter's birthday was on Tuesday.
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  You need those people in your team too, but then you need everybody else.
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  You know, it's like any other community.
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  You need folks who carry multiple, you know, different roles.
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  And, that's what I, you know, that's what I see the neurodiverse community doing and what's
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  awesome.
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  My I mean, I think for both of us and and our teams and and friends is it's so much more
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  accepted now.
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  It's not perfect by any stretch, but it's starting, especially in IT, which you know, now
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  I'm so close to.
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  So I can't speak for every industry, but particularly in IT, in an engineering,
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  especially it's almost like a badge of honor, and it's I couldn't be happier to see that
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  evolve.
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  You know?
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  How have you found out the evolution?
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  Now that I mean, you know, I've had multiple podcasts on people with neurodiversity and, you
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  know, talking about it so that people can understand it.
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  I think you know, in corporate, you know, 20, 25 years ago, it was like that if there was
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  accommodations, I I definitely didn't know about it.
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  Or even in schools when I talk, university and college just at the tail end of it when I, you
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  know, was teaching.
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  They've started to kind of you know, talk more about accommodation and short term kind of,
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  concerns and how they can assist with people.
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  Now it's completely different.
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  So in IT, how has that flourished the industry?
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  Like, I'm just thinking about, you know, specific, like you talked a little bit about
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  somebody being able to read micro elements, to be able to decipher, if there's an abnormality
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  behavior to around trafficking.
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  So what kind of things would what kind of advancements have you seen in the tech industry
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  to allow people that are new neurodiverse to be considered maybe at times with, say, maybe 10
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  years ago, they might not have been.
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  You know, I'm not I'm not close enough.
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  I would love to get, you know, like, a panel of neurodiverse people and say, okay.
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  Tell tell me the truth.
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  But in my extremely limited experience and, just just extremely limited, you know, we work
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  with several organizations Dell is a great example where they pull their teams.
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  They have things like, employee resource groups and things like that.
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  And they leverage some of their technology to be able to say, hey.
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  You know what?
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  This person is always turning the volume up really high.
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  We should check on them and make sure they don't need these kinds of assistive technology
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  tools or things like that.
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  But, again, just in the the limited conversations that I've had in my limited
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  experience, I don't know if we're quite where we should be when it comes to corporate America
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  embracing it.
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  I see it as the people of corporate America embracing and and just embracing that there
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  were in enjoying.
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  I mean, really, you know, in including, neurodiverse people, but I don't see corporate
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  America stepping up the way that I would love to see.
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  Now, again, I couldn't be more biased.
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  I think it is, like I said, we have people on the spectrum on our staff.
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  We have some of those brilliant engineers that identify as, you know, maybe on the spectrum or
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  have been diagnosed with different things.
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  And, like I said, I I I there's there's very few people who are more brilliant than them and
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  more technical, though.
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  And so I think the people in the IT industry see the value.
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  I don't know yet.
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  I in my experience, I don't think corporate America stepped up yet, and there's some pretty
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  pretty significant things we could be doing it.
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  We're just we're just now starting to kind of talk about mental health, but not really.
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  We're just kinda now talking about, you know, oh, I have these traits too and things like
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  that, but it's I haven't seen a big movement, a big step out even in marketing.
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  We don't even see people with physical disabilities that much in, like, advertisements
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  or anything like that.
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  At least in the IT industry.
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  I'm just now starting to see women with headscarves, so religious diversity in
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  marketing, and even that's fairly limited.
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  So I think we have a massive, massive way to go, from the largest of the large to the
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  smallest of the small organizations in the industry.
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  I just, I think there's a lot left to do there.
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  So it's a beginning point.
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  At least we're now aware, and we know that we should be more cognizant when, you have
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  differences on your teams.
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  So you start you swing from being a litigator into sales.
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  And so tell me tell me did what was your role and and how did that get you into Was it sales
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  teams, or what was your role when you started in the tech sector?
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  Yeah.
• 18:16
  Yeah.
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  It's You know, I'll tell you the the takeaway is it takes one person to believe in you.
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  It just takes one person.
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  So If there's someone that you see that you go, you know what?
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  I think they've got it.
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  Just do it.
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  Just believe in them.
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  Go push them a little bit further.
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  There was one person.
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  He knows who he is.
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  His child was actually you know, he, was in one of my clinics.
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  He worked with a lot of the therapists that, you know, I worked with And he had known my
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  work ethic back then.
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  And then, obviously, during law school and, you know, we have known each other as I became a
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  litigator, And, he just saw something in me.
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  And, he said, you know, would you would you consider?
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  Would you consider?
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  And he kept hounding me for several quarters.
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  And I said, no.
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  No.
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  I I don't know anything about sales.
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  I don't know anything about tech, and I don't know anything about leadership.
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  And I never really seen myself, you know, with the first company.
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  I never saw myself as a leader because I was significantly young decades younger than
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  anybody had worked for me.
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  I was just the conduit.
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  It was like, hey.
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  We should all get together and help some kids.
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  You know?
• 19:22
  I didn't see myself as that, but he saw it.
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  He saw how he could orchestrate how hard I work and how there is nothing more important to me
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  than the outcome of the people I'm serving.
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  It's it's truly an obsession.
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  It it and not always in the best way.
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  So don't follow my example, but he saw that.
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  And so, you know, he, he handheld a lot of hand holding.
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  So I came in as a sales director for a region for West Coast sales, and I had, I don't know,
• 19:51
  maybe 10 or 12.
• 19:53
  I can't remember exact.
• 19:54
  I had I had a fairly small team, and, it went like gangbusters.
• 19:59
  I mean, we nearly doubled the size of the business in 2 half years.
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  We were doing 1,000,001,000,000 of dollars.
• 20:06
  When I first started, they wrote about a twenty five year old company, 20 something year old
• 20:10
  company, They're doing about 10,000,000 in business.
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  When I left about two and a half years later, they were about $24,000,000.
• 20:17
  I mean, we were just knocking it out of the park.
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  And it was the same skill I just told you about.
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  I I think you have to be comfortable with not being the smartest person in the room.
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  And then if you can really turn it on, be excited about not being the knowledgeable
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  person in the room.
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  And I have always my greatest talent is just surrounding myself with such brilliant people
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  and listening.
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  And asking questions and being very honest with I don't understand things because it happens a
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  lot in in trusting them, but then building this network and this trust of communication to say,
• 20:57
  oh, I get what you're saying, Melissa or John or whatever.
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  You know?
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  But I think we need to tweak it this way.
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  So having that open communication, I think there's a difference between surrounding
• 21:09
  yourself with really smart people and letting them take the helm.
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  Versus working collectively and collaboratively as a team and getting the best out of each
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  person without exhausting them.
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  And so, So it started with that.
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  By the time I left, I was running, you know, global sales and all kinds of different things.
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  We were running global road shows and all kinds of fun stuff.
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  And then the rest was history.
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  The the rest was history.
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  And now, you know, like you mentioned earlier, I'm the CEO of the company and you know,
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  running multi $1,000,000 engagements, and it's just been such a wild ride.
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  And it all kinda started.
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  With this one person who said, you got it.
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  You got it, kid.
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  I see something in you.
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  And, me going, alright.
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  If you see it, I'll trust you.
• 21:59
  I'll try my hardest, but I don't know.
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  And I had so many safety nets when I initially took the role.
• 22:08
  You know, because I was so scared, and and he was so willing to give me those safety nets, in
• 22:13
  order for me to feel that security.
• 22:15
  So I can't take a lot of credit for it.
• 22:17
  Again, it it pretty much my life comes back to surround yourself with brilliant people.
• 22:22
  Goodhearted, smart, hardworking people.
• 22:25
  The rest kinda takes care of itself.
• 22:27
  So he saw that, but you were scared, but you still took the step And, like, I mean, that's,
• 22:32
  you know, it's kinda like, you know, we talk a little, you know, you hear everybody talking
• 22:36
  about imposter syndrome.
• 22:37
  You're like, yes.
• 22:38
  Clearly, you have trans.
• 22:39
  A lot of transferable skills, right, like you, you know, having worked, you know, with
• 22:44
  diversity in in, learning or different kind of platforms, then Of course, you're going into
• 22:50
  litigation where you're having to understand reads, figure out what's in what's in the
• 22:55
  courtroom, how you're kind of shoveling lots of different nuances, I think, that of subs of
• 23:00
  skills that you eventually come to.
• 23:02
  And then, you know, someone obviously seeing the the capacity that you have to be, I I would
• 23:08
  say, like, a servant leader, like, to recognize.
• 23:12
  I'm kinda the I'm kinda like the glue.
• 23:16
  I recognize what my limitations are and I try to understand what are the strengths of the
• 23:22
  people around me and maybe also understand their limitations too and creating a space for
• 23:28
  them to, a place of safety, I would say, for them to be able to listen or maybe objectively
• 23:36
  hear the perspective, not just you on your team, but also the others on your team.
• 23:41
  Right.
• 23:42
  And a lot of times, you know, we had team meetings and we talked about investment blocks
• 23:46
  and I would bring in experts.
• 23:48
  I mean, that became kind of my thing to the point other people on different teams.
• 23:51
  Alright.
• 23:51
  Can I join your meetings?
• 23:52
  Because it wasn't a Sabrina show.
• 23:54
  It was, let's bring in this expert and talk about this.
• 23:57
  Let's, you know, and and the team would contribute and say, I don't understand this at
• 24:00
  all.
• 24:01
  You know, what's sassy?
• 24:02
  What's the edge?
• 24:03
  What's cloud computing?
• 24:04
  What are all these buzzwords?
• 24:06
  And we would bring in different experts to talk about it.
• 24:09
  So, again, I think coming in with some of that humility, I think to your point, understanding
• 24:14
  when you're skills transfer.
• 24:15
  I think that's something that especially early in career, people coming back into their
• 24:20
  careers, maybe they left sabbatical or for parenthood or something like that coming back
• 24:26
  and not really realizing how much of those skills transfer you know, as a litigator in any
• 24:32
  kind of legal work that you do, whether it's writing or oral or whatever, your job is to
• 24:37
  take and sanely complex things and truncate them to the most understandable, simplified,
• 24:44
  and convincing message possible.
• 24:47
  That's what we do in tech because tech is super complex, and you have to take this massive
• 24:53
  thing and and make it make sense to the person you're talking to and make it relate to what
• 25:00
  they're interested in or what they're trying to accomplish.
• 25:03
  So, again, it was the same job.
• 25:05
  I just didn't realize it.
• 25:06
  You're just plugging in different inputs, but you're still
• 25:08
  looking put on a different a different hat, but you took the skills that you were good with you
• 25:13
  and accentuated those as you went along.
• 25:15
  Exactly.
• 25:15
  Now let's talk a little bit about, we know, presently in the world There's so much going
• 25:22
  on.
• 25:23
  Obviously, the tech sector, has been, greatly impacted.
• 25:27
  I think there's a lot of layoffs that have happened are gonna continue to happen, but,
• 25:32
  obviously, there's amazing things also happening in the tech sector.
• 25:36
  What are you seeing out there in reference to, kind of the pulse of the tech sector in
• 25:42
  reference?
• 25:43
  So to all these changes that are occurring.
• 25:46
  You know, it's, it's unlike anything I've seen, and and the pandemic certainly helped
• 25:52
  accelerate so much of this.
• 25:54
  You know, we went through this hiring craze where, you know, CRO of giant company would
• 26:01
  call me and say you'll never believe how much they just poach the guy from me about, you
• 26:05
  know, you'll never believe how much this bonus is of these people they poach.
• 26:08
  So we went this went through this insane hiring craze, to now these mass layoffs.
• 26:14
  And again, some we support some of the largest organizations in the world.
• 26:18
  You know?
• 26:19
  And so we get an inside perspective that maybe you don't always get to see and, or at least
• 26:27
  until it's much later.
• 26:29
  So there's still plenty more to come.
• 26:31
  And, you know, between supply chain issues, manufacturing issues, obviously different wars
• 26:38
  and and, geopolitical conflict is maybe a safe way to say it.
• 26:46
  You know, there's a lot of unrest and uncertainty And I think, in fact, I was just
• 26:50
  reading some, you know, some research on this literally just yesterday.
• 26:55
  You know, what people are looking for now are resilient teams helping retain the talent that
• 27:01
  they do have because you have to do the same, if not more work with less.
• 27:05
  So now you not only do you have a demotivated team, which one of my sort of many expertise is
• 27:10
  around motivation.
• 27:12
  So you've got a demotivated team.
• 27:14
  Who have to do more with less.
• 27:16
  They're all remote.
• 27:17
  They don't feel connected, or maybe they feel semi connected.
• 27:21
  And it's a lot.
• 27:21
  They're worried about their jobs.
• 27:23
  So now they've got kinds of hormones triggered and, you know, we're it it's just a it's a it's
• 27:29
  a it's a mind mess.
• 27:31
  And so, from a team's perspective, from a leadership perspective, even as folks who are
• 27:38
  who are teammates who are influencing the culture of their teams, people wanna feel like
• 27:43
  they're being invested in.
• 27:45
  Enablement has never been more important.
• 27:47
  You know, here's the other interesting thing is the tech industry is is rapidly moving to
• 27:53
  solution sales.
• 27:54
  We're not talking about, hey.
• 27:55
  Look at this really cool new widget that spins even faster than this widget that we sold you
• 27:59
  last year.
• 28:00
  Or, hey, it's it's tech refresh time, and you've had that stuff for 3 years.
• 28:05
  Let's get you a new box.
• 28:06
  Now you're talking boxes and wires and software and it's it's incredibly complex.
• 28:13
  And now not only are you selling to IT people, you're selling to OT to the business side of
• 28:20
  things.
• 28:20
  So you have brand new relationships you need to make who have totally different interests, and
• 28:26
  you're worried about your job.
• 28:28
  It's a total cluster, but in in these kinds of times comes an enormous amount of opportunity
• 28:36
  if you can leverage it.
• 28:38
  If you can get on, you know, if you can get a hold of it, And so part of it is, you know, if
• 28:43
  we can enable our teams and show them, look, we're invested in you, you're important to us,
• 28:48
  it also equips them with the right skill so that they can be successful.
• 28:52
  Sometimes I say to my team, like, if I've got a salesperson who maybe hasn't had a sale in a
• 28:56
  minute, I'll say you just need to win.
• 28:58
  As humans, sometimes we just need a win.
• 29:01
  And so I've noticed that the more you can invest in your people and enablement is
• 29:05
  probably one of the strong ways, you can do that right now because it can be remote.
• 29:10
  It can be funny.
• 29:10
  You can have prizes.
• 29:11
  You can do gamification.
• 29:13
  You can be silly and still learn.
• 29:15
  It kinda ties in all those different pieces while still kind of telling them without
• 29:21
  telling them.
• 29:22
  I'm invested in you.
• 29:23
  Your worth investing, so your job is a little bit safer.
• 29:26
  Those are the kinds of things that I'm seeing really work when it comes to retaining talent.
• 29:33
  And nurturing a culture for growth and more success.
• 29:38
  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a two part series be sure to
• 29:43
  tune in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
• 29:48
  Thank you for tuning in again.
• 29:50
  Before I sign off, I wanna you to consider.
• 29:53
  What is it disrupting your bottom line?
• 29:55
  Just a reminder that my book return on relationships will be available on June 10th on
• 30:00
  Amazon, and it's available today on my website at roxanderhodge.comforward/book.
• 30:06
  For more tools, insights in anecdote about your leadership story.
• 30:09
  Consider pre ordering, you'll find the link in the show notes.
• 30:13
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic live with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
• 30:19
  healthy change.
• 30:20
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 30:26
  rocksandirhaj.com/blueprint.
• 30:30
  We'll see you next time.
• 30:32
  On authentic living with Roxanne.