Latest / Project Podcast / National Trust, part 1: Project management at the heart of conservation

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National Trust, part 1: Project management at the heart of conservation · Project Podcast

0:06
Ohh, isn't it pretty? All right.
0:09
Shall I go? OK, I'm good to go.
0:20
Welcome to our three-part series on APM, corporate partner at the
0:23
National Trust, where we'll be finding out how the charity has
0:26
brought project management close to its organisational heart.
0:30
I'm Emma De Vita and I'm your host.
0:32
I'll be delving behind the scenes of the National Trust
0:35
visiting Dearham Park, a 17th century mansion near Bath which
0:39
recently underwent a multi £1,000,000 transformation
0:42
project and a community garden, Dagenham, East London.
0:47
Across the three episodes, I'll be meeting project professionals
0:50
from the Head of Project and Programme Management through to
0:53
apprentices who are part of the 400 strong project management
0:56
team at the charity. They work on a huge range of
0:59
projects, from historic house transformations to tech
1:02
implementations. I'll be finding out just how
1:06
important the professionalisation of project
1:08
management is to the success of the National Trust and how the
1:12
support it receives for APM as a corporate partner has helped
1:15
create a motivated team of successful project professionals
1:19
who are climbing the ladder of APM qualifications with the goal
1:22
of achieving chartered status. In episode one, I meet Mike
1:26
Hudson, Head of Strategic Planning, Projects and Programme
1:30
Management for the National Trust, and Senior Project
1:33
Manager Tim Camborne, who takes me on a tour of Durham Park
1:37
where he led a huge transformation project.
1:40
In episode 2 I meet Joe Dimitri, a senior programme manager who
1:44
works on a National Trusts Urban Green Spaces projects and
1:48
projects officer, Emma King. It gives me a guided tour of its
1:51
community garden in Dagenham. I also speak to Dean on another
1:56
Chartered Project Manager who is closely involved with the
1:58
National Trust's ambitious Net Zero strategy, a critical part
2:02
of its future direction. Finally, in Episode 3 I meet
2:07
three apprentices at Durham Park, Rebecca Corcoran, Flora
2:10
Smith and Maddie Hills, who work across the National Trust and
2:13
have been inspired and supported to expect the highest standards
2:16
from themselves and the charity they work in.
2:25
Welcome to episode one of our series about the National Trust.
2:28
I've just arrived at Dyrham Park, a 17th century house and
2:32
garden near Bath which recently underwent a £3.2 million
2:36
transformation project. As I walk up the gravel path and
2:40
faced with the honey coloured baroque house that was built by
2:42
William Blathwayt in the late 17th century, Blathwayt was
2:46
secretary towards the King, Williams said, and was one of
2:49
the most influential ministers, civil servants and colonialists
2:52
of the late 17th century. Over the centuries the house
2:57
underwent remodelling, drastic redecoration and eventual
3:00
disrepair before passing into the National Trust hands in
3:03
1961. In late 2015, the go ahead was
3:08
given to the wholesale representation of the house with
3:11
the aim of recreating the interiors of the turn of the
3:14
18th century, when William Blathwayt was at the peak of his
3:17
career. The house then was filled with
3:19
luxury goods and furnishings from around the world.
3:23
The project was a complex one to manage and later I'll be meeting
3:27
Tim Campbell, the senior project manager who led the work on the
3:30
House and gardens, which included structural repairs,
3:33
conservation and redecoration that have led to dramatic
3:36
changes to restore the interiors to its original beauty.
3:40
Tim is going to give me a behind the scenes tour of some of the
3:43
beautiful restoration projects from within the house.
4:00
So this is the Great Hall. Yes.
4:04
So this is the kind of core of the mediaeval house system on
4:08
the site before the present house was built.
4:11
And we've still got archaeologically underneath kind
4:14
of these stores. We've got the sellers that
4:16
actually show the layer of some of that original house and then
4:20
each of the wings on all the fronts on the east and West,
4:23
Next up on east and West. They were the bits that
4:26
blathwayt and built in the 1690s.
4:29
So can you describe what we're looking at and here?
4:31
It's. Really, it's pretty sumptuous
4:33
and glorious with two chandeliers as well.
4:37
It does. It looks amazing now.
4:38
It didn't look quite as good a couple of years ago.
4:41
So just as a kind of background, a lot of feedback we had from
4:45
visitors was the fact that the house looked a bit unloved and
4:48
more shabby than chic. So the project was to was to
4:54
basically redecorate and represent the interiors.
4:56
So this room you've got kind of panelling up to kind of 1/3
5:02
height of the of the space. It's a mixture of oak and
5:06
softwood. But then it was originally
5:09
grained, which means it's painted to look like a
5:12
particular timber. In this case, before the trust
5:15
owned it back in the 1920s, it was all painted white or kind of
5:19
broken white, and this original scheme was lost.
5:23
So we did analysis of the paint layers and then found the
5:29
original scheme. So there's a panel in one corner
5:32
of the room which we cleaned back to, and then the rest of
5:36
the room has been redecorated to match that.
5:38
So it now looks like the original 1690s oak training.
5:43
Yeah, and you've got all these portraits of the family.
5:47
Yeah. And that was the thing we we did
5:49
as part of the scheme is this room has also been rehung with
5:52
painting. So now you've got, as you say,
5:54
you've got all the portraits of the family, see?
5:58
And you've also got King William.
6:00
Yeah, And Queen Mary. So they were, they were key
6:06
because they had. When the glorious revolution
6:08
happened in the 1690s, William Blake, what you had the house
6:11
built. He was basically the kind of
6:15
head of the civil service for the king, also secretary of War.
6:20
So he was, he's kind of right hand man to that's why you get
6:23
the King and Queen's portraits in the house.
6:24
And it's also why William had massive influence and so that he
6:30
said the house was designed by the King's architect because he
6:33
had those kind of contacts. And the chandeliers.
6:35
Yeah. The other thing, the other
6:37
things in here that we've done is you've got the three large
6:41
oil paintings on the ceiling and all the ceiling was redecorated
6:45
and all the the kind of gold lining around those frames was
6:48
redone. And then the two chandeliers
6:50
which are two crystal chandeliers they they've been
6:54
out of the house for about, well not out of the house but not
6:56
hung for about 10. So we're a bit of a 10 years and
7:01
so they've been taken apart piece by piece, rebuilt, rehung
7:07
and then electrified to all the lighting is LED candles.
7:12
And to give you an idea, I think it took something in the order
7:15
of five months to do this ring. Wow, So you must have been
7:21
dealing with many different kind of partners and stakeholders.
7:25
Yeah, yeah. So obviously it's a grade one
7:29
listed building, so lots of consultation with Historic
7:33
England, the local authorities, conservation officer.
7:36
So we're kind of going through all these rooms as you kind of
7:39
develop the plans and kind of consulting all the time through
7:43
that. We also have a really good
7:45
relationship with the the, the village.
7:47
So you know things like parish council and people like that.
7:50
So we try to always share what we're going to do, although kind
7:55
of the work inside the house to a large degree for these
7:58
probably don't mind that much. I don't really have a big view
8:02
on, but they're interested in things that might affect visitor
8:07
numbers and that kind of thing. So it's always good to keep them
8:09
involved and they're very supportive and quite a lot.
8:12
We have quite a lot of volunteers as well who who can
8:15
help really demand the house and they live in the village as
8:17
well. OK, do you want to take me to
8:20
the gilt leather parlour or the old says.
8:23
I don't know which is closer. We'll go through this.
8:32
We'll go back to Tim's tour later, but first let's meet Mike
8:35
Hudson, Head of Strategic Planning, Projects and Programme
8:38
Management at the National Trust, for his overview of the
8:41
work that the 400 strong team of project professionals at charity
8:45
do. We met in one of the private
8:47
rooms at Deer and that have been given over to the National Trust
8:50
office space, complete with hidden doors in the wood
8:52
panelling and a tiny spiral staircase.
8:55
Mike has turned his back on a career in accountancy to join
8:58
the charity to do some good in the world.
9:01
As he explained 15 years later he overseas more than 8000
9:05
projects a year with budgets of around £300 million.
9:11
So 15 years ago when you joined the National Trust, what role do
9:16
project management have then? With project management kind of
9:19
embedded in the organisation, no.
9:22
Not so and and to be honest, I didn't, so I didn't know.
9:25
That's why I ended up doing. Ohh, when he took the role, you
9:28
didn't. Know this?
9:29
No. So I it was a specific project
9:32
working with staff and volunteers to improve
9:35
volunteering opportunities at this particular property and it
9:40
was only from there that I ended up working on a an
9:46
organisational change programme in around 2010 and kind of put
9:51
myself forward to do that and ended up working on that.
9:54
And through that one of the management processes we
9:59
identified that we really needed to improve on was project
10:03
management because we have no standard approach in the
10:07
organisation. As part of a change programme I
10:10
led the the the kind of work stream to look into project
10:13
management as as part of the wider change programme.
10:15
All those kind of proposals were accepted and then the role for
10:20
as it was called then head of project support was was
10:23
advertised, which I went for and and and kind of got and at the
10:26
task of that role was to embed into the organisation a project
10:32
management. Framework we working with APM
10:34
then already? Did you have any support?
10:37
At that point, no, no, no, not with APM.
10:39
At that point we we did have some consultants that came in
10:41
who they were the ones who kind of devised the, I suppose the
10:47
bare bones of the framework, yeah, relatively kind of
10:49
standardised way. And then we were the ones who
10:52
kind of essentially branded it and sold it into the
10:54
organisation. And at the same time we did that
10:58
set up a very small what's called a project support office,
11:00
essentially just me and one of the person when we first started
11:04
and recruited. At that point in time we had two
11:08
people whose role title was project manager in the
11:11
organisation. We've now got over 400 in the
11:14
profession. That's huge.
11:16
Yeah. And we recruited a I think there
11:18
was about 8-8 or nine senior project managers they were going
11:23
to. They were assigned to our most
11:25
complex projects. So we kind of got a bit of a
11:28
grip of those. But at the same time part of
11:30
their role then, and it still is today is to kind of act as sort
11:34
of internal ambassadors for the profession and really champion
11:38
what we do and and the professionalism from there.
11:40
So that's kind of where it all started when we come a very long
11:43
way since then and I I moved on from that role to a different
11:47
role and there was another team and kind of then took it on even
11:51
further. And then I I came back into kind
11:55
of an expanded role in the beginning of 2021.
11:59
So why don't you tell me now, actually, about what your
12:01
current role and responsibilities involve?
12:04
It's a ridiculously long job title.
12:08
That longer. It's head of strategic Planning
12:11
and Projects and programme management.
12:13
So as it says on the tin, accountable for our strategic
12:18
planning processes to how we translate our strategy into
12:22
delivery, whether that be through our business as usual
12:26
kind of operations or whether through kind of changing through
12:30
projects. So that's part of my role.
12:33
And in some ways I kind of think my job and my team's job is
12:37
really about helping the organisation deliver some
12:39
brilliant things. You're creating the processes,
12:41
the environment, the capability to do that.
12:45
So, yeah, so the strategic plan is part of my job then I've got
12:50
the capability development is another part that's project
12:54
management, programme management.
12:55
And we've had a huge push recently around sponsorship
12:59
because that was a that was a bit of a gap for us.
13:01
And we have this is where we work really closely with the PM
13:04
in terms of the different training programmes we got
13:06
apprenticeship programme, various different kind of
13:09
programme management interventions, but also then
13:12
different levels of the kind of project management.
13:15
So really we're focused on the the sort of the the grades below
13:19
project manager. We we kind of go for the project
13:23
management qualification for those grades then the project
13:26
edges we're encouraging if they haven't got the PMQ let's let's
13:30
definitely get that. But then let's let's go towards
13:33
the kind of project professional qualification and then our
13:35
seniors and others are going for the kind of chartership so that
13:38
we really kind of kind of up the get and that's really
13:41
collectively up to our game. So and we've introduced better
13:45
approaches and minimum standards to our recruitment.
13:48
So I'm all for if we've got an existing member of staff who's
13:51
not quite got the qualification. Well, I've been there, so I get
13:53
that. But you know, how do we help
13:55
that person, you know, get that qualification.
13:58
And it's not just about the qualification, it's about the
13:59
kind of shared language. It's about access to the latest
14:02
thinking and it's just constantly keeps moving.
14:05
The professional forward in terms of the project management
14:08
office which is a a key team within my wider team over the
14:16
past three years or so kind of effectively had to rebuild that
14:23
that team because of the impacts of the the impacts the pandemic
14:27
had on the organisation and. How, how big an impact did that
14:29
have on the team? Across the the project managers,
14:33
across the profession, we lost over half of our profession.
14:38
So I think we were down below 200 staff at one point.
14:42
Yeah, because we had to stop so many projects because of the
14:45
issues relating to cash flow. We're now back up to over around
14:50
400 for for many reasons. We we kind of lost a number of
14:56
people in the profession and from a kind of central project
15:00
management office point of view we essentially started again.
15:03
But the the great thing that that has enabled is there was
15:06
myself and one other person and we've now kind of grown that
15:10
team. There's I think there's still
15:13
about five or six people in it but it's it's a kind of you know
15:15
it's it's the it's the kind of enterprise level project
15:17
management office and we've we've I suppose drawing on our
15:22
the national trusts approach to things.
15:24
We've been able to curate the the team in terms of what the
15:28
sort of skills we need, where they've come from, a real kind
15:31
of diverse mix of people who now work in the team, which is just
15:36
added so much to what we do, what we're known for internally.
15:41
We get a lot of internal kind of plaudits from people and they've
15:47
spent a lot of time really kind of synthesising down the advice
15:50
and guidance. So it's kind of as crisp as it
15:53
can possibly be. And we've we've got a continuous
15:57
improvement plan that just rolls through in terms of various
15:59
different areas that gets improved.
16:00
And one of the one of the key things we've done is we've set
16:04
up kind of like a stakeholder, what we call a stakeholder
16:06
service essentially it's like relationship managers internally
16:09
that point to the directorates and the regions.
16:11
So we can kind of agree and because it's a small team, a
16:15
small kind of expert team, there's only so much they can
16:17
do. So we agree with a kind of order
16:22
of priority of what so we're not getting swamped with work which
16:26
is and that sounds like a small thing but that's just that's
16:28
just made a massive impact and and and we we other people
16:30
prioritise the work in a way so they've got a real stake in
16:33
stake in it as well. Yeah we've set up an assurance
16:36
service for our really major projects which is making a big
16:40
difference. And so I think the and our
16:43
reporting has we're in the early stages of introducing a like a
16:48
PM tool that's in some ways force us to do a lot of work on
16:52
the kind of process and the kind of the base data before the a
16:56
kind of tool comes in. So our the reporting that that
16:59
that the team do as as kind of massively improved, dramatically
17:02
improved. Well, I mean, I wanted to ask
17:03
you about, you know, what advantages or benefits how has
17:06
the increased professionalisation of project
17:08
management within the National Trust actually brought?
17:12
We have our project management organisation and we weren't when
17:15
we started this. So people really appreciate the
17:17
value that project management brings and the value that really
17:22
excellent project managers can bring and even the language.
17:25
So even when we first started we talked about business cases and
17:28
gates and risk management and sponsors and it's like a new
17:33
language for people that didn't really get it.
17:36
And now it's it's a common language that's common outside
17:40
of project managers and outside of the profession.
17:42
It's just a common language in the organisation, which I think
17:45
has made a kind of a real difference.
17:48
Where is the National Trust now and what are your ambitions for
17:52
the future in terms of professionalising it?
17:56
I would say it's probably halfway between the middle and
17:59
the kind of world class end. Yeah, So we've certainly not got
18:03
there yet. Again, one of the kind of very
18:05
conscious pieces of internal branding that I did was the team
18:10
I run we refer to as the Centre of Excellence for planning
18:12
projects and programmes. We deliberately chose that, that
18:15
wording, not because it's a destination we've reached, but
18:18
it's a kind of journey that we're on.
18:21
Why would we aspire to do that? Well, we're Europe's largest
18:24
conservation charity. We've got more members than the
18:27
people living in Norway got really, you know, got nearly
18:31
6,000,000 members. And we should be the best at
18:36
what we do. And so we should be the best at
18:38
delivering those sorts of projects because we're entrusted
18:41
with these charitable funds and the scale that we are, the
18:45
impact we can have, why wouldn't we aspire for that?
18:47
But it's not good enough to kind of put up with second best in my
18:53
view. So that's that's what I drive,
18:55
that's what I kind of push us forward for.
18:57
Yeah, absolutely. And I see that there's different
19:00
strands of that professionalisation.
19:01
And I wanted to ask you about the National Trusts relationship
19:05
with APM as a corporate partner. So what benefits has that
19:11
brought? Is provided a kind of helpful
19:14
frame as in across industry. This is what good looks like.
19:20
That's why I also sit on the corporate advisory group for a
19:23
PM and through that meeting a whole range of people from
19:27
across different industries. And it's always fascinating to
19:30
talk to kind of counterparts in different organisations because
19:36
a lot of the time we share very similar problems.
19:38
I remember sitting next to somebody from Rolls Royce and it
19:41
was the first time he attended one of these and we got kind of
19:45
chatting and I kind of said to him what are you, what are the
19:47
big things you're working at the moment And he kind of said what
19:50
about you And I note half of them overlapped and he he was
19:53
slightly sort of, I can't believe I'm working at Rolls
19:56
Royce and kind of designing we're designing aircraft engines
19:59
and you're the National Trust. But we have such similar
20:02
challenges and I said well that's that's what's fascinating
20:04
about this in that and some of the challenges that they're
20:06
further ahead on, we can learn from them but others we're
20:08
further ahead on and they can kind of learn from us.
20:11
So and I think again you know people internally they they they
20:16
enjoy being part of a a kind of a thriving profession that.
20:19
Really supports their personal development.
20:22
How, I guess, how much more successful are your projects now
20:25
that you've it's it brought in this professionalisation?
20:31
I certainly, we certainly we certainly have less high profile
20:36
what's that go wrong put it that way.
20:38
I think the thing we've really focused on recently is is making
20:41
sure things are set up well from the from from the start and that
20:46
has suppose in some ways the kind of clarity of our overall
20:49
planning of our overall portfolio has got a lot better.
20:53
So for example, for many years, every year we would say we would
20:58
deliver a certain volume of projects and we measured it by
21:02
you know how much money we would spend and every year we would
21:06
under deliver by 1015% against that against that number.
21:11
And in the past couple of years, we've created a new problem
21:15
we've started to over deliver. Much problems.
21:19
Yeah, Well, it is in some ways, but you do have to fund those
21:21
projects. So, yeah, so we've we've really,
21:24
we've yeah, we've really flipped that dynamic.
21:28
Yeah and and and we've also got a lot more efficient as well as
21:32
we've done that. So the the again crude sort of
21:35
measure, but if you measure the the number of project
21:38
professionals and or the kind of wages associated with project
21:42
professionals and how many the volume of projects that get
21:44
delivered that is definitely improved over the last you know
21:49
decade as a metric. At the moment we're in Durham
21:52
Park and listeners probably would think when they think as a
21:56
National Trust, they think of historic houses like this.
21:58
Yeah. But I know within this series
22:01
we'll be speaking to other people who are on very different
22:03
types of projects. So right now what how would you
22:07
categorise the different projects in the National Trust
22:09
and how might that change over the kind of near term, future,
22:12
medium term future? We have the ones as you
22:16
articulated, the ones that were associated with you know, the
22:19
kind of country houses and the and the and the conservation of
22:23
those, the restoring of those, sometimes just the ongoing
22:27
maintenance of those, You know, quite often they might need a
22:29
new roof which tends to maybe always tend to have quite a lot
22:33
of money. We then got a visitor
22:37
infrastructure type projects, yeah, so car parks, food and
22:41
beverage, retail and all the associated infrastructure that
22:44
goes with that. We then have what we call land
22:49
and nature projects. So this could be the restoration
22:52
of landscapes. We tend to do that increasingly
22:55
at scale with partners. So whole we may own part of a
22:59
landscape, so let's say part of a valley, you may have other
23:03
land owners within the valley. So we're increasingly trying to
23:05
work at that sort of scale to you know restore nature.
23:11
Another kind of domain of projects we have is working in
23:14
more urban environments. Yeah, with in partnership with
23:17
people because a lot of time we don't own land or houses there,
23:22
but we can bring some level of expertise to kind of work work
23:26
with others to try and bring access to green space much
23:29
closer to people. And then we have then we also
23:33
have other sorts of projects like you know we have lots of IT
23:36
projects, business transformation type projects.
23:38
We do a lot of, we do a lot of obviously do a lot of marketing.
23:42
So those those sorts of things, I mean, one of the one of the
23:45
biggest ones that we've done recently is an upgrade to our
23:49
CRM system, yes. And as I've said before, given
23:52
we've got 6,000,000 members, that was a really significant
23:55
undertaking. Over your time here and the
24:00
experience that you've now got under your belt, what what is
24:05
there a particular National Trust approach to projects and
24:08
programmes that you would characterise?
24:12
One of the things we have learnt, I would say again over
24:15
the past decade is we're quite a geographically dispersed
24:20
organisation and we're quite a delegated organisation.
24:23
So one of the challenges that brings is that we quite often do
24:28
the same sort of project multiple times in multiple
24:31
locations. And what we're used to do was do
24:34
that with multiple project managers probably doing it for
24:38
the first time again and again and again.
24:40
Yeah. And we we are now we've, we're
24:43
moving to a more kind of pluralistic approach to
24:46
delivery. So we still have individual
24:47
projects that are delivered. Yeah.
24:49
But we have certain types of projects where we have
24:53
essentially like a portfolio team who go around delivering
24:57
that project multiple times. So one of the things I used to
25:00
do is I used to run our renewable energy programme.
25:02
Yeah. So we have a brilliant team of
25:05
people who go around and so on by most boilers.
25:10
Hmm, ground source, heat pumps, micro hydro.
25:13
And they've done it so many Times Now.
25:15
They've got really good at it. I think that's does that kind of
25:19
it's a bit of a it can be a bit of a trap you know because the
25:22
the the core thing about project management is oh this is a
25:24
unique endeavour and you know that's why you need project
25:26
management. But if you, if you sort of my
25:29
view, if you over overdo that message, you get yourself into a
25:34
mindset of, well, I I can't possibly learn from anybody
25:36
because this is the most unique thing I've that anybody's ever
25:39
done. Yeah.
25:40
And I think that's really helpful.
25:42
Yeah. So it's kind of trying to tread
25:43
that middle ground are going, there will be elements of this
25:45
that are unique, but there's also going to be elements that
25:48
probably somewhere, somewhere else has done before.
25:50
So what can I learn from those people?
25:53
And I done the same project but they may have had a similar
25:56
stakeholder challenge or they may have.
25:59
Yeah. Had a had a similar approach to
26:02
contracting or whatever it happens to be.
26:04
So I think there's things you can you can kind of learn from.
26:09
You were talking to someone in your position from another
26:13
organisation or another sector. What was the really kind of hard
26:17
won lessons you've learned that you'd wish you'd known that you
26:21
could then pass on to them? So, you know, what we've just
26:24
been talking about is is one thing.
26:27
Is there anything else that you have seen to be something that
26:31
has become critical to the future success of projects that
26:35
you'd pass on? It's the level of engagement
26:38
that you need to undertake to make sure give, give things the
26:43
greatest chance of being successful is the way they would
26:45
use language like that. Yeah you you can't guarantee
26:47
things are going to be successful cause the world is a
26:49
complex place but it's it's one of the things we're doing to
26:52
give ourselves the greatest chance to be successful and you
26:55
can't do that on your own either as an individual in an
26:59
organisation or as an organisation actually.
27:01
So that's why I say increasingly we work in partnership with
27:04
others. So I think the time and the
27:07
effort that you devote to that communication, to that genuine
27:11
engagement really pays back and I think when I was younger I
27:15
probably didn't appreciate that as much as I could.
27:18
Yeah. So I mean that's relationships,
27:21
is it relationship building as much as anything else?
27:25
It is it's it is about relationship building.
27:28
It's also about is there any part of the project that you're
27:30
working on with others as in that it's it's a joint endeavour
27:35
and is it and is it genuinely a joint endeavour or you or you
27:38
just paying lip service to it. You're doing some consultation
27:41
but are you really going to listen?
27:42
Because people know they can see through it.
27:44
So it's got to be really genuine and one of the things we I
27:48
talked to people about internally is that it is also a
27:51
really strong link between to that.
27:53
And our success is defined on a project because that kind of
27:57
slightly esoteric question of how do we know when we're
28:00
successful. And a lot of the time it's
28:02
because it's about what others think.
28:05
Do they think this thing is successful?
28:07
Because how do you measure success on National Trust
28:10
projects? One of the things we talk about
28:12
is not the traditional measures of, you know got your time cost
28:15
quality that sort of the iron triangles we refer to it.
28:18
But actually that really only takes you so far and a lot of
28:22
the things we do that that gets us to a certain point of
28:25
delivery. But you can have something that
28:27
finished on time costs what it said and to the quality that you
28:29
divisionally decide and people go, that's fine, but I don't
28:31
like it. And then and is that successful,
28:34
umm, so it's it the the, the, the kind of added, the sort of
28:38
added ingredient then is is around, it's about taking those
28:42
people with you know well how would they define so take
28:44
Durham. Yeah.
28:45
And the people who have you measured success?
28:47
So the people that use it, it's and.
28:50
And the visitors, Yeah, the the visitors, the members, do they
28:54
think what we've done here is a good thing?
28:56
Yeah. Because you need both I think to
28:58
be successfully, yes, it's got to you know time, cost, quality,
29:01
but it's also got to be increasingly we think about the
29:04
kind of beneficiaries and you know what kind of level of
29:07
public benefit is being delivered.
29:09
Now we are defining how that, how we measure that going
29:12
forward. So don't ask me about that
29:14
because we have we can do another episode about.
29:16
Progress, right, and try and understand how you should do
29:19
these things. And like you seem to be a
29:22
learning organisation so it's not ever taking anything for
29:26
granted or thinking that yes, you've nailed it, it's just
29:29
carrying on redefining. Thank you so much for giving me
29:33
such a great insight into what you do in the work at National
29:36
Trust. It's a pleasure kind of lights
29:37
all over you. So thanks so much for your time.
29:40
Thank you. Now back to Tim's tour of deer
29:44
and Park, where he takes me to the gilt leather parlour, which
29:48
has roped off to the public and the last room to be restored,
29:51
and then shows me to the beautiful old stairs that
29:53
underwent painstaking renovation work.
29:58
So what? What room is this?
30:00
So this is the leather parlour. But there's no guilt leather in
30:02
it. Conspicuous white locker for
30:04
lack of guilt? Never.
30:05
Yeah, so the the scheme you see here is the the wallpaper, which
30:13
is a kind of goldy flock wallpaper.
30:17
And I think the idea when it when it happened was to give the
30:20
the feeling of the kind of opulence of a gilt leather.
30:24
And again in here, all this panelling was all painted white
30:27
in the 20s. So again, we've gone back to the
30:31
grain schemes. Again, this is all painted and
30:33
in each panel has got quite a figurative representation I
30:40
guess, so that's to look like Burrough Walnut.
30:43
Yes, I was gonna say. That was like.
30:44
Ohh yeah. So what we're doing at the
30:48
moment is this is kind of the last room to be completed if you
30:53
could have rehang this room with panels but they will be they'll
30:58
they'll look like guilt leather but probably not in leather.
31:01
So we're looking to to make them, we've had samples done of
31:04
of a a man made alternative which is a kind of a plant based
31:08
product. Why is that?
31:11
Because of kind of 20th, 20th century, 21st century views of
31:18
of using leather and the animals that are used for this kind of
31:23
installation, they're only bred for their leather.
31:25
They're not. It's not a byproduct of.
31:28
Ohh, how interesting then. That stake kind of thing so is
31:31
so, so we we we weren't kind of comfortable that was the right
31:34
way to go. OK, I think we've got a few
31:37
minutes if we go to the old, old stairs.
31:46
This is the old stairs, so it's a 3 flight walnut staircase.
31:55
Which was. So that was shipped from.
31:57
Virginia Yeah, 1619. So if you think of the kind of
32:03
the millionaires today who will do whatever their their kind of
32:06
properties to almost show off their wealth, this is the
32:10
equivalent of the 17th century. Because William had the
32:14
connections with Virginia, he could get this 10% across.
32:18
And when you come round there's a visitor, you know he's one of
32:20
his guests. You're not going to have that
32:22
because no one else has got access to it.
32:24
So you can kind of look at my warnings staircase.
32:27
So, so that's that's why this is important.
32:29
And again, this room was painted white, so all this was white,
32:33
which I don't think there's a photograph of now.
32:36
And this has all been in this room.
32:38
It's been stripped, so the staircase itself is he is
32:46
actually worn out, whereas the panels are all softwood and
32:50
they've been and they've been drained.
32:54
So it's the usual combination of solid timber and framing.
32:59
You could not tell. No, no.
33:02
And with a project like this, imagine this one thing being
33:09
more reinterpreting the decoration, but structurally
33:11
when you came to start. Yeah, so this, this room was
33:15
propped up. This room this decade was
33:16
propped up with Acrow props, right.
33:19
So the second flight, as it kind of turns, there was a lot of
33:24
movement in the staircase and we were only allowing two people on
33:26
the staircase at any one time. But we stripped off all the
33:30
panelling underneath the soffits of the flights and then have put
33:35
a combination of timber and timber repairs and steel steel
33:40
cleat reinforcements to stiffen the staircase.
33:44
But now it's it's kind of fine again, but the amount of time it
33:48
took to strip the white paint off of this you can imagine was.
33:52
All by hand. All by hand.
33:56
Tim and I leave the main house and go behind stairs to the
33:59
National Trust office, where he tells me all about the
34:01
management of the Durham House Transformation Project.
34:04
Tim is a senior project manager in the National Trust Southwest
34:08
Region and is responsible for Durham Park and Prior Park.
34:12
He joined the charity 33 years ago as a building surveyor
34:15
before morphing into a project manager.
34:19
Well, listen, we're sitting here in what is your office I've just
34:24
discovered at Deer Park which is definitely has not been
34:27
renovated. No.
34:28
And it's exciting as a someone who's not in the National Trust
34:32
that you get to see behind the scenes and yeah, over the rocks.
34:40
Can you tell me all about the project here?
34:43
So when you started working on it, what the scope of the
34:46
project was, what you hoped to achieve and a flavour of what it
34:50
was like to lead a project like this.
34:54
This project started off as an interpretation or
34:58
reinterpretation project, so it's going to be about
35:00
installations in the house and some redecoration.
35:04
So when was this? This was back in 20 Ohh God
35:08
before me, so about 2016. And then for various reasons, it
35:13
was kind of recognised that it was more complicated than that.
35:18
So then I joined the project, kind of ask the overall senior
35:24
project manager, and I feel like I've got a bad habit of joining
35:30
a project. And then my first thing is I
35:33
tell people that the budget is not big enough and the programme
35:35
not realistic, which is kind of what I did here.
35:40
So we went from that stage is going to be something like with
35:45
the numbers wrong, but something in the order of 1.8 million and
35:48
it went up to 3.2 million, but not in a kind of unplanned way
35:52
as in a right, OK, so to to deliver what you want, the
35:56
realistic budget for this is 3.2 million.
35:59
So we went back and fundraised and kind of made that funding
36:05
available. So, so straight away you were
36:09
getting a realistic budget together, yes?
36:11
And it has an aggressive programme as well.
36:14
And how successful has the project been in meeting those?
36:19
We're still on budget, well within budget, so OK, that's
36:22
good. Yeah, but the programme, we're
36:24
kind of on our revised programme, which may sound odd,
36:27
but obviously there's two things.
36:29
One is we lost probably 9 good nine months during COVID for
36:35
various reasons everyone knows. Then more recently we've got one
36:40
room to complete the guilt of the parlour and to get that
36:45
guilt leather or the effect something it made.
36:49
It's taken a lot of time to test alternatives, get all the colour
36:53
schemes right and all that kind of stuff.
36:54
So that is the kind of thing hanging at the end.
36:57
So that's going to be completed at the end of this year, but
36:59
everything else went. Fantastic.
37:02
Can you talk us through the different stages of the project
37:06
and perhaps what the biggest challenges were?
37:09
Yeah. So we deliberately put the point
37:12
down to phases because there was a a big fundraising element.
37:18
I was keen that we did something as a as an exemplar.
37:22
So the the old stairs which which had been painted white in
37:26
the 20s and were to be stripped back and repairs and structural
37:30
repairs to them, about 320,000 from memory, wanted to do that
37:37
as a standalone piece so that we could show potential funders the
37:43
quality of the work we're going to do and and then it and then
37:47
we kind of carried on in phases from there.
37:49
So we then did the exhibition space, which is converting what
37:52
was formally a a star flat and offices into introductory.
37:58
There's two films in there, plus objects that you can handle to
38:03
explain the kind of background to the house.
38:06
And William Blathwayt had it built.
38:10
And then in the house we did the house in with one contractor,
38:14
but in two phases because again, we were trying to keep as much
38:17
of the house open as possible. Yeah.
38:19
There was a stage we did close over 1 winter for about 10 weeks
38:25
where it just became impossible to to get the logistics to work,
38:28
to get people in and the contractor so, but apart from
38:32
that we say no way through. One of the questions I had for
38:35
you was to ask you around the increasing professionalisation
38:39
of project management here since you joined, I guess.
38:42
So yeah, yeah, what benefits is that brought to you?
38:45
I mean, imagine part of that is having a professional team of
38:49
project managers. Yeah.
38:51
I mean I think historically project managers were kind of
38:55
they had that as a title. But.
38:58
Actually, probably weren't. And it got taped onto their day
39:01
job and we were quite good at setting people up to fail, if
39:05
I'm honest. So yeah, I think the fact we've
39:08
got that kind of professional structure is really good.
39:12
There's, I mean it gives a really clear pathway for for PMS
39:17
to work inside the trust. It also makes it, it makes it
39:22
really clear where people stand it it, it makes it much clearer
39:26
about capability and things as well.
39:29
So when you're looking to allocate projects to a project
39:33
manager or project manager to a project, you have some easily
39:37
measured kind of things that you can see through qualification or
39:41
whatever. So, so when, when project
39:44
management starts to become more professionalised, I guess from
39:47
2001, 2011, sorry, and starting along that kind of journey, it
39:52
was very difficult. You kind of did.
39:54
We brought in like assessments for how complex projects were so
39:58
we could allocate the appropriate people.
40:01
But it was quite difficult still to judge the appropriate people,
40:04
if you like. I mean, you knew some people and
40:05
thought, OK, they can do it, but yeah, but having something
40:09
tangible, I guess. An objective.
40:11
Yeah and yes, exactly. So it's a much better.
40:15
I think it's better for the individual as well.
40:18
I think we have in the past just giving people stuff they
40:22
weren't. We kind of overfed them with the
40:25
project. Yeah, it's not quite ready for
40:27
it, yeah. Yeah, so it's it's important you
40:29
kind of match projects and people.
40:32
Do you mentor any apprentices? Other project professionals.
40:38
Yes and yes. So yes.
40:39
So I I meant to an apprentice who works for me or here on my
40:45
other project who is coming to the end of apprenticeship and
40:48
whatever they expect 10 weeks time.
40:50
I think it's a bit scary. Everything's really good and
40:54
hopefully the Welsh should get the qualification out there, but
40:57
also hopefully she's had a really good experience as well.
40:59
And then yes, I meant other project managers.
41:03
So I think at the moment about four I think.
41:09
How long have you been charted and what has that meant, Ohh?
41:12
For you. Question, When did I do that 22,
41:17
I think it was last year but no one year before, yeah. 22.
41:20
What did you gain from that process?
41:24
It was really worthwhile and I think a colleague of mine who
41:29
was doing at the same time, we both said it was just because
41:34
you were anticipating but forced almost.
41:37
You had to kind of go through all that information about how
41:40
to manage projects and all the stuff about processes and all
41:46
those kind of things. And when you go back through it,
41:49
you realise actually I'm not doing that as well as I could be
41:53
and then other things. OK, yeah, alright with that.
41:56
But you do kind of identify maybe not gap, but too much as I
42:01
guess kind of with experience. You end up not taking things for
42:06
granted, but maybe not giving things as much time as they
42:08
should get. So I think that was really,
42:11
really worthwhile actually. Coming back to the work that was
42:14
happening here at Durham Park, as you go along with a project
42:19
like this, what approach do you take?
42:21
Are you there assuming that there will be nasty surprises
42:25
along the way? What kind of all good things
42:28
that get discovered? What kind of mindset approach do
42:31
you take? Yeah.
42:33
I mean it inevitably with these kind of buildings particularly,
42:37
you're going to find you're gonna find something you don't
42:40
wanna fight. What was the case here?
42:43
Here wasn't too bad. There was one interesting piece,
42:49
another staircase, where it was kind of the floor was depressed
42:53
under the New York Post which is the thing that kind of sits in
42:56
the corner of the staircase and we investigate underneath.
43:00
Opened up an old vote that's blocked up in the 50s and then
43:05
realised there was absolutely nothing underneath that at all.
43:07
There was a there was a marble slab, a rotten floorboard and
43:13
thin air, and we did that. I think it was it was me, the
43:17
trench near, and the architect. And we kept measuring and
43:19
measuring and measuring because we couldn't believe this thing
43:22
was just bounced in the middle of nothing.
43:24
Ohh my gosh. Yeah, so there's sort of things
43:27
are quite interesting. Yeah, any happy discoveries?
43:34
There, yeah. So in the what the close up
43:37
bedroom, which is the kind of east, no southwest corner,
43:41
right. So we had to take the the
43:44
wallpaper and the canvas lining off because it was, they've been
43:50
water damaged in the past and we took it off.
43:53
We found remnants of the original 17th century panelling
43:57
and then obviously in the past that it had been partly
44:02
dismantled, but also lots of graffiti on the wall and stuff.
44:05
So it's just really interesting to kind of stand where someone
44:10
stood 200 years ago, you know, little basic sketchy horse or
44:14
whatever it was and and or waiting little message.
44:17
It was just that I just find frustrating, yeah.
44:23
From 200 year old graffiti to the trials and tribulations of a
44:27
modern historic transformation project.
44:29
My thanks to Tim for his fascinating behind the scenes
44:32
explanation of what it takes to pull something like this off and
44:36
the benefits that are professionalised.
44:38
Project Management Team brings this episode I've learned not
44:41
only about how central a professionalised project
44:44
management function is to the running of the National Trust,
44:47
but also the success in projects this brings.
44:50
It's also been fascinating to understand what it means to work
44:53
on a historic property like Duran Park and the joy of
44:56
discovering its hidden secrets. In episode 2, I'll be meeting 2
45:00
project professionals at the National Trust who are working
45:03
in very different areas of the charity's renewable energy and
45:06
urban programmes, plus a tour in East London of a community
45:10
garden that has recently opened up to the public.
45:13
Thanks again to Mike and Tim and to you for listening.
45:16
As ever, we want to hear your comments, feedback and
45:18
suggestions at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.