Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / How to Know You're In A Toxic Relationship with Caroline Parsons from Solo Legal

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How to Know You're In A Toxic Relationship with Caroline Parsons from Solo Legal · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

0:54
SPEAKER_04: Welcome back to another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
0:59
SPEAKER_04: Today I am welcoming Caroline Parsons to this podcast.
1:03
SPEAKER_04: Caroline is the principal lawyer at Solbo Legal.
1:06
SPEAKER_04: With 20 years of legal experience, Caroline believes that you deserve the best representation possible.
1:13
SPEAKER_04: And she wants to give you the flexibility and power to make your own choices about your separation, but with her input and guidance.
1:20
SPEAKER_04: Caroline understands that separation can be overwhelming.
1:24
SPEAKER_04: So she believes in taking a human and empathetic approach to resolving family law issues or disputes.
1:32
SPEAKER_04: She works with her clients in a positive and sensitive manner, and she also has training in trauma-informed practice.
1:40
SPEAKER_04: Hi Caroline, welcome to the podcast.
1:43
SPEAKER_04: Thank you, Sal.
1:44
SPEAKER_04: It's good to be here.
1:46
SPEAKER_04: I thought that I would start by just asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself, your journey into family law, and the how or the why you chose to start Solo Legal.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: So I was a banking lawyer for 20 years in various countries around the world, during which time I had a bit of a challenging divorce.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: But I had an amazing family lawyer who helped me through it.
2:15
SPEAKER_00: And I thought that's what I want to be when I grow up.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: So when I moved back to Australia in 2019, I decided I'd set up my own law firm and help people navigate the very difficult world of post-separation law, basically.
2:30
SPEAKER_04: It's often the way that we're drawn to where I know from my person my personal experience, that's why I do what I do, because I navigated a separation and a divorce, and then a reorganization of our family without somebody like me to help.
2:48
SPEAKER_04: And so basically set Reflect up for the exact same reason.
2:54
SPEAKER_04: So can you tell us a little bit more about Solo Legal?
2:59
SPEAKER_00: So the way I've set the firm up is to um kind of flip the experience for the client.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: The traditional structure is you go into a big law firm in the city and they have big books behind them and they wear the suit, and it's quite overwhelming, especially when you've been uh in a relationship that's a little bit difficult.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh so the way I work is that I don't have an office, I'm in my home.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: And if you need me, I will come to your house if it's safe to do so, or I'll meet you in a coffee shop, or we can hire somewhere in the city.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: But basically, and I don't wear a suit, so I wear um human clothes, which is also a little less daunting and a little more friendly.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: So it's designed to ensure that the process of meeting with your lawyer isn't a scary one, it's an affirming one.
3:47
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, taking out all that intimidation and all those stories that we can tell ourselves about lawyers being scary.
3:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I love it.
3:56
SPEAKER_04: I love it.
3:56
SPEAKER_04: Now, from my experience, and I'd be really keen to know what you experience here.
4:01
SPEAKER_04: It seems that it's often difficult for women, or especially women, to recognize a relationship is unhealthy or in fact it's toxic.
4:11
SPEAKER_04: So, what do you find are the key indicators that a relationship is toxic?
4:17
SPEAKER_00: It's a great question, Sal, because often we think a toxic relationship or a toxic person looks a certain way or has a certain job.
4:25
SPEAKER_00: Often people think all lawyers are toxic, and that's fine.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I actually think the big indicator when you're in an intimate relationship that maybe it's not right is how you feel.
4:37
SPEAKER_00: So it's not the person that you're with who could tell you and give you an indication of what's happening, it's how you feel about that relationship.
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, and often the big question I get from clients or the statement I hear most often is is this what marriage is about?
4:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, yeah, it's confusion.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: It's like, I didn't think it would be like this.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: I thought it would be different, more supportive, and you know, I'd feel less alone.
5:04
SPEAKER_00: So for me, the big indicator is how do you feel about the relationship?
5:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's interesting.
5:08
SPEAKER_04: And and often I talk with my clients about tuning into how it feels in your body.
5:15
SPEAKER_04: So does it what is your gut telling you?
5:18
SPEAKER_04: You know, we actually have a gut reaction.
5:21
SPEAKER_04: And so if you tune into it and really listen to it and feel into what's happening in your body when you think about this relationship, yeah, that's a there's a strong message often.
5:32
SPEAKER_04: So how how do you think we can recognize if a relationship that feels challenging is really, in fact, more than that, that it's toxic or it's harmful or it's unhealthy?
5:45
SPEAKER_04: I guess what how do we split the hairs?
5:49
SPEAKER_00: It's that's also it's a great question because we are at an interesting point in history right now.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: We've had centuries of the rules being made by the boys and enforced by the boys and cultural and societal norms.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: It's the men who write the movies and you know sing the theme tune.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: It's been all about the male experience, and the female experience has been very much however it was depicted by men.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Um and it, you know, in the 1920s, there was a there was a manual that came out that talked about a man's one of the man's jobs was to correct his wife, was to make sure that sorry, I shouldn't laugh, I shouldn't last.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: I know, and I and this is the problem, you know, it's not it's not men today's fault.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: This is the history.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: And we all just kind of accepted that that's how it was.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: Men were the bosses and they were the ones who talked and they told us what to do.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think really it's only the Me Too movement that changed that.
6:46
SPEAKER_00: That's why I feel like we're at this incredible watershed moment um in history that the quality is it's coming.
6:53
SPEAKER_00: So what but where we are at this pivot point is uh that we've got a lot of behaviours that are based on history.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: So and historically as well, you know, women weren't allowed to, married women weren't allowed to work in my grandmother's.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: So my grandmother's even my mother.
7:10
SPEAKER_04: My mother.
7:11
SPEAKER_00: Even your mother, you get married.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: That's it.
7:14
SPEAKER_04: You don't need a job anymore because your husband's gonna look after you.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, so that's your mother, that's the generation above us, yeah.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, or before us, they had to come home, they had to stay home, they had to look after the children, and they had to run the house.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And because men were writing the stories and kind of telling everyone how it operated, the stories that we heard were that the job is difficult, the man's job is difficult, and the woman's job is not.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: It's easy to run a house and look after children.
7:44
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't know about you, but I've done both.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've worked on the trading floor in a commercial bank in the Middle East, and I would tell you that was easier than staying at home looking after young children.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: Like, because even billion-dollar deals are not personal, it's just money.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but when it's your children who you love more than life itself, it's so it's taxing and it's it's emotionally draining because you want to do the right thing and you want to be great.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think where we are right now is that we need to have a big stock take about roles and how they look.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: And let go of that whole thought that that the working is the most difficult thing and that staying at home is not.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, because any working mum will tell you going to work is sometimes a break from being at home.
8:31
unknown: Yeah.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: So how do you recognize the question we have here though is how do you recognize that the if you've got that structure now where even in some cases where mum and dad are both working, the the studies show that mum still comes home and looks after houses after the children and dad carries.
8:48
SPEAKER_04: And carries them in and carries the mental load.
8:50
SPEAKER_00: And the mental load organizing, yeah, which is a job in itself.
8:54
SPEAKER_00: We're looking at women at this point in time having three extra jobs.
8:59
SPEAKER_00: And that's no one's fault.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: It's just been an evolution in society that hasn't really, we haven't caught up with in our homes.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: So here's what I suggest you do.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: Have a chat with your husband for your readers if they're women and they feel a little bit overburdened.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Say to your husband, you know, I feel like I'm doing it, I'm carrying more of the load than you.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think we need to talk about re rebalancing it.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And as so you are the the relationship guru, Sal.
9:25
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna ask you what would be a healthier relate, like reaction to that question.
9:32
SPEAKER_04: I automatically slip to the unhealthy.
9:35
SPEAKER_04: Um, so a healthy reaction from your your partner, husband, spouse is okay, let's talk about how we can rebalance this so that it works for everybody.
9:47
SPEAKER_04: And unhealthy.
9:50
SPEAKER_04: What the F bomb, that's your job.
9:54
SPEAKER_04: Or a stonewalling or a blocking, which is just, you know, dismissing it, it's not an issue.
10:01
SPEAKER_04: Or don't you know how busy I am at work and how much stress I'm carrying.
10:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: And so I think any of those reactions that aren't the first one, you just put that in your back pocket and you go, okay, I need to be a little concerned about that.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: Even the healthier response, I think then what you need to do is actually, once you've talked about it, you've reshuffled some blue jobs and some pink jobs, see what happens in six months.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: So we can't overcome centuries of training, for want of a better word, in in a minute.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: So if he doesn't start doing all the washing up after dinner tomorrow, it's okay.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: Just give yourself six months to 12 months to see what happens.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: And if things change and he makes a big effort towards it, then I think what you've got is somebody who's been influenced by toxic masculinity and by society, but not somebody who's a bad guy who doesn't care about you.
10:56
SPEAKER_00: So um, I know that's a very low threshold to kind of cross.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: But if you've got someone who's making the effort to share the load, that's less concerning than somebody who A doesn't share the load and B makes it your problem.
11:11
SPEAKER_00: That's the really for me uh the the key indicator is how do they react to your request for help change and change.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:23
SPEAKER_00: When you express your needs, do they support you or do they say stopping an ag?
11:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and I was just gonna say pretty much exactly that, because it's not just about housework or load, it's about you expressing a need, whatever that need is, it could be housework, it could be child, you know, child rearing and homeschooling, um, you know, it could be uh anything, or it could be something around intimacy or physical contact, whatever it is.
11:52
SPEAKER_04: I think uh a healthy uh relationship is one where when you express a need or a want or a desire or a wish, it's met with openness, curiosity.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: How can we make this work?
12:06
SPEAKER_04: How can we change this?
12:07
SPEAKER_04: How can we shift things rather than a block or a blame?
12:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a shared responsibility to meet those needs, fix the issue, whatever it is, rather than a deflection and a blocking and a blame.
12:23
SPEAKER_04: Okay, Caroline, going a level deeper than that, and I know even when you and I were talking about what we were going to talk about in this um in this podcast episode, there was a part of our chat from, I guess from my end, where I spoke about gaslighting and manipulation not being recognized as domestic violence.
12:44
SPEAKER_04: But it's important, don't you think, to call it what it is rather than minimizing the behavior or the these experiences, gaslighting, manipulation, really calling it out for what it is.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think it's important to call it out.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: You actually have to understand what it is.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think um chicks, formerly as the Dick Chicks have uh written a song called gaslighting, and it's fantastic that people are using the term.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I thought it might be worth clarifying um exactly what it means because it's kind of an odd word.
13:16
SPEAKER_00: Um and it's basically uh based on a 1944 movie with Ingrid Bergman, you're nodding because you know this, where the father, the mother was her husband was cheating, and when he was upstairs in the house, the lights in the house would dim because he was using the electricity to cheat on his wife.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Wife's downstairs looking at the lights dimming and wondering what's going on.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: And when husband comes downstairs and she says the lights were dimming, he says, No, they won't.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: And the reason this is a really, really powerful tool of control is that what happens is that the wife goes, Oh, well, I must have imagined it.
13:55
SPEAKER_00: And and again, society and cultural norms play into this.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: That this whole the husband has corrected me, I must be wrong.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: And what it does over time, when this kind of stuff happens over and over again, is that the wife doesn't believe her own senses, she doesn't believe her ears, her eyes, or anything about herself, that the only person that she believes is the husband.
14:17
SPEAKER_00: So, and I think the reason that's really important to recognize those behaviors is that people have this idea as domestic violence being about Jake the Musk from Once for Warriors, you know.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, people being smashed into mirrors.
14:33
SPEAKER_00: It's it's often not like that.
14:36
SPEAKER_00: It's often really invisible, it's really difficult to see, and it's something that small.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, for example, I knew somebody who um went to work in the morning and there was beer in the fridge, and she came home at night, she said to the husband, Oh, I was gonna have a beer, but there's there's none left.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: And he said, There was never any beer in the fridge.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: And when you if you don't know what gaslighting is, and you don't know that your intimate partner might be trying to manipulate you or coerce or control you, it would never occur to you in a million years that that could be a lie or it could be anything other than you're an idiot.
15:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I must have been mistaken.
15:12
SPEAKER_04: I must be an idiot.
15:13
SPEAKER_04: Um, and over time, it just undermines, undermines, undermines your sense of self-trust and your and your sense of being able to trust your own reality.
15:25
SPEAKER_04: As you said, your eyes, your ears, and your gut.
15:27
SPEAKER_04: You go back to that feeling in your gut that something's not quite right.
15:31
SPEAKER_04: You stop trusting that because you externalize it.
15:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
15:34
SPEAKER_00: And the only person who you kind of trust is your husband, who's obviously he he's he's got no questions about things, and he's right.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's as you say, it's a loss of self.
15:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:46
SPEAKER_04: And it's as you said, it's small, it's small and seemingly insignificant, but repeated over a long period of time.
15:54
SPEAKER_04: It's really, really debilitating and undermining.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: I call it it to me, it's it's like death by a thousand cuts.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: It's um a lot of little, a lot of little tiny like water droplets.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: It's tiny, tiny things over time that just erode you.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: And you know, the Grand Canyon is a good example of that.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Tiny little water droplets.
16:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: And in the end, at the end of it, there's not much of you left.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:18
SPEAKER_00: That's that's the big problem.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: And and women, bright, you know, smart, funny, empathetic, wonderful women become shells of themselves.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: So physically they look the same, but they're not the same inside.
16:31
SPEAKER_04: And I guess that's another myth that it doesn't happen to smart, confident, savvy women.
16:36
SPEAKER_04: It can, and it does because of that Grand Canyon type um analogy, that it is just a small water droplet repeated over many, many, many times.
16:48
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
16:50
SPEAKER_04: And I guess that that leads us to the next step, which is navigating that should I stay, should I go?
16:56
SPEAKER_04: Is it time to go?
16:58
SPEAKER_04: How to decide it's time to leave?
17:01
SPEAKER_04: And I guess that's my question.
17:04
SPEAKER_04: How do how does one decide it's time to leave in your experience?
17:08
SPEAKER_04: And how do we support ourselves or a friend or a client through that should I stay, should I go, period.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna tell you something that may sound counterintuitive, which is don't worry about staying or going.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Because the worry adds to the I the I should.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Should is a dirty word in my vocabulary.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: Should I, I should, I should just forget it.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: Because something very, I'm not gonna say magical, something interesting has happened to pretty much all the people I know in um toxic relationships.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the reason I knew about it is because a friend of mine um left two toxic relationships, um, one a marriage and one a de facto after a couple of years, and she told me about it.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm gonna gift it to you, Sal.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Call the snap.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: So she called it the snap.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: And basically, the first one, she was sitting at a breakfast table and just went, This, it's not, this is not okay.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: And she just walked out, she left everything, and she never saw the guy again.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: The second time, again, it was it wasn't a thing, it was just nothing happened externally.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, something changed inside of her, and she describes it as an alignment of her soul, spirit, her, herself, her head, and her heart, so she and her gut, as you talk about.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think what happens is subconsciously, you know, when you're in a toxic relationship.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you, the you that is not your brain and is not, you know, you you know, but because of conditioning and because of society, and because of all kinds of things, you your head convinces you that it's okay, and I've just got to protect the children and I've got to stay, and there's all this stuff that happens.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: But there'll come a moment, it could be triggered by an event externally, or it could just be this moment where your heart and your head and your your gut they just align and you go, I'm done.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: And some people experience it as a rushing of air, some people actually experience it as a snap that they sense in their brains.
19:17
SPEAKER_00: Not a light bulb moment.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: I was talking about this with somebody and they said, Oh, is it like a light bulb?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, No, it's not, it's it's a breaking inside, it's a it's it's not a pleasant experience.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when that happens, it's followed by a cold certainty that it's time to go.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: So I talk about the snap because if you are in a toxic relationship, I'm I'm 95% sure it'll happen, but you have to recognize it.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: And often what happens is people feel it, but then they talk themselves out of it.
19:52
SPEAKER_00: And I another I have another close friend in the Middle East who um felt the snap when her children were very, very young.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: She left her husband.
20:01
SPEAKER_00: But then because she's been taught not to trust herself and trusted gut, she just convinced herself that it was a ridiculous thing to do.
20:07
SPEAKER_00: And she went back to him.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: And I met her 20 years later.
20:10
SPEAKER_00: She finally did leave him when the kids were old enough.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And she said to me, I wish I'd just listened to myself.
20:16
SPEAKER_00: I wish I'd stayed away.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I talk about the snap because I tell you, don't worry about it.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: If you're in a toxic relationship, that moment will come, but you need to recognize it.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: And if you can recognize it and then take steps, that's that's the best you can hope for, really.
20:33
SPEAKER_04: I love that.
20:35
SPEAKER_04: You've nailed it absolutely.
20:37
SPEAKER_04: It is exactly what happens.
20:39
SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
20:40
SPEAKER_04: So the second part of the question was yeah, how do we support ourselves or a client or a friend through the should I stay, should I go, or even the snap.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: And this is the hardest question to answer.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's one of those do as I say, not as I do, because I'm the worst at this, taking my own advice.
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but you just have to be there and not not give any shoulds.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, just be there and connect.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: Connection is key.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: Connection is key throughout the whole process, and that's all we can do for ourselves, connect with ourselves, and if somebody else is going through it, connect with them.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, I I I've been thinking about one of the best ways to think about a toxic relationship is a bully in the playground.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and a bully, it's it's it operates very similar ways.
21:27
SPEAKER_00: A bully can be the kind of one who takes a kid around the back and throws them in the garbage bin.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: But a bully can also be the kid who snaps the girl's bra.
21:36
unknown: Yeah.
21:36
SPEAKER_00: And the best, so what bullies do is they isolate a belittle and they dictate.
21:41
SPEAKER_00: That's how bullies take control.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: So to counteract that, what we want to do is we want to connect, we want to uplift, and we want to empower.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: So when you think about the bully analogy, if somebody's trying to throw a kid in a bin, if everybody in the playground gathered around and said no, Johnny, that's not Happening today that's going to stop the bullying.
22:03
SPEAKER_00: And even the problem is a lot of what happens here is happening in a house.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: And the only two people in that house are the bully and the target of the bullying.
22:12
SPEAKER_00: So this is really difficult.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: But all we can do is emotionally and physically and is stay connected with the target of the bullying.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Tell let them know that we're there.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: But whatever you do, and this is the hard bit, is don't say you should leave, you should do this, you should do that.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Because you're doing exactly what the bully's doing.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: You're telling somebody what to do, and that's just not work.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: And what it'll do is rough your connection.
22:36
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, be there.
22:37
SPEAKER_04: Pardon me again.
22:38
SPEAKER_04: Sorry, be there, be present, just be a support.
22:42
SPEAKER_04: It's a bit like once I find often with clients, once they've gone through a divorce, friendships shift and change.
22:50
SPEAKER_04: And sometimes friendships are lost through divorce.
22:56
SPEAKER_04: But the ones that are just present quietly there without judgment, which is really what you're saying when not the should.
23:06
SPEAKER_04: We're just applying our own judgment.
23:07
SPEAKER_04: So the ones that are just quietly there, they're the friends that last the distance.
23:11
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, be that be that friend or that support while they're navigating their way to their own snap.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: If you can, it's hard.
23:21
SPEAKER_00: It's especially hard for family and friends to see it and not act on it.
23:26
SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, so it's hard.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: If you can do it, I think as you say, that's what you'll do is you'll be there afterwards.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: And you'll when the snap happens, the worst thing that can happen after a snap is that there's nowhere to go.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: So you want to be there so that when the snap happens, they've got somewhere to go emotionally and physically.
23:46
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:47
SPEAKER_04: And I guess that once the decision has been made, um or even when they're like the client you spoke about earlier in the in our chat, someone who's thinking about going, um, contemplating that decision to leave.
24:04
SPEAKER_04: Can you outline the legal process, the options?
24:09
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like really, I guess bring in the family law stuff that is your area of expertise.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: That's my jam.
24:16
SPEAKER_00: I um extending the analogy for the playground.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: I first thing you have to do when you're thinking about leaving is let the teacher on playground duty know.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: You can tell my whole family's teachers because I'm I'm all across this.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: So again, using that analogy, what do you do?
24:33
SPEAKER_00: You tell the teacher who's on duty that this is going on.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: So my first, the first step I would suggest that you take if you're thinking about leaving a relationship where you think it might go pear-shaped, is to call the police.
24:47
SPEAKER_00: Because the police is the the playground, the guy on playground duty, and their job is to protect you.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: And there's been a lot of talk about the police, and there's a lot of people who say, Oh, the police are terrible and they're useless.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think that's dangerous.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: You've got to have, there's got to be somebody who's there to protect you, and you've got to ask for help.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, they can't help you, you know.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: And I know sometimes they get it wrong, but I just think the first thing you do is call the police and don't just rock up to the police station.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm saying give them a call, ask to speak to what's called the domestic violence liaison officer, and they're in uh police stations in Queensland and New South Wales, and I'm fairly sure they'll have the movie to it as well.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes, make an appointment, go along and say, listen, this is what's been happening.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to tell them you've had the snap.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: They might think that's a bit strange, but um just let them know what's happening and that you're planning to leave.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Give them the date that you're going to leave and just say to them, This is where I live and this is what I'm planning on doing.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: They have an obligation at that point.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: If what you've been experiencing is is actual actual domestic abuse, they have an obligation at that point to potentially take out an order on your behalf and to take steps to protect you.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think if that happens, and it has happened for me with a few clients, I've said to them, just let them know so that if anything goes wrong, somebody's there to help you on that day.
26:06
SPEAKER_00: And the police have said this is really serious abuse, we're going to take out an order on your behalf.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: And when that happens, it's horrifying.
26:15
SPEAKER_00: There's no question it's really overwhelming.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: But in all of the cases that it's happened, they've said it was validating.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Somebody listened and realized that what had happened wasn't okay.
26:27
SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't my imagination.
26:28
SPEAKER_04: I wasn't making this up.
26:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: And it's actually healing in a way, because then you realize you're not imagining it, you're not crazy, you stuff is being done to you that is not okay and you need some protection.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: Um so I would say step number one.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: Step number one.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Step number two is once you're safely away.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: So safety first, second, and third, but once you're safely away, um, or even if you can do it beforehand safely, is you get your property sorted out.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Um call me, call another lawyer.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I always recommend consent orders are the easiest way to do property uh if you can get them to consent.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: But uh anyway, so property first, once you've got your property sorted out, then you go to parenting.
27:17
SPEAKER_00: So you sort out what's happening with the children.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And then the divorce is just a rubber stamp that happens 12 months after separation.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: So don't worry about the divorce, it's not an issue.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: It's property and parenting that you need to really sort out.
27:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
27:29
SPEAKER_04: Um I I often find that people get really emotional about the divorce.
27:34
SPEAKER_04: They're not talking about what you and I know to be the divorce, that rubber stamp.
27:37
SPEAKER_04: They're talking about the other stuff that needs to be put in place as you disconnect yourself and reorganise your family through the separation.
27:47
SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it's good to actually say, no, divorce is just paperwork, court, rubber stamp, bang, bit of money.
27:55
SPEAKER_04: The other stuff, when we talk about the divorce, that's really what we're talking about.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the bit of money is just the money you pay in the filing fees.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: The divorce is not, the divorce has nothing to do with how much money you're going to get in the settlement or whether you get child support or nothing.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: It's not related.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: So I often have I've had people who say, Oh, look, I've done the divorce and now what do we do?
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And I go, Oh no, because there's a 12-month time limitation, as you know.
28:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: From the date of your divorce, you've got a year and a day to get your property sorted out.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: So if you do the divorce process up front, you you're actually on the clock.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And that's not what you want to be.
28:33
unknown: Yeah.
28:34
SPEAKER_04: And when we talk property settlement, I also like to clarify for listeners, we're not we're talking money, assets, superannuation, all the things.
28:43
SPEAKER_04: Property settlement isn't just who gets the house.
28:45
SPEAKER_04: Property settlement is all of the stuff that you own that you owe in the pool.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And I would actually suggest that even when you're contemplating separation, have a chat to me or have a chat to your lawyer or somebody to talk about what the assets are, what the liabilities are, so that you have an idea, even before you separate what's in the house.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Because this includes cars and motorbikes and jewelry and furniture.
29:11
SPEAKER_00: This is everything goes into the property pool.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would say early on, figure out what that is as soon as you can, so that you can get it finalized as soon as you can, because once you separate, it is harder to establish what the pool is.
29:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so have have visibility early.
29:28
SPEAKER_04: I always say with my clients.
29:30
SPEAKER_04: Just get visible, make sure you know what's what's in that bank account and where it's all going.
29:36
SPEAKER_04: And yeah, get clear visibility on what you own, what you owe.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is people think that you separate and that's your property pool determined on the date of separation, but it's not.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: The property pool is determined the day on which you go to court.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: For example, you don't have to go to court for consent orders, but you have to submit them to the court.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: So if you separate and two years later you try and figure out your property, they're going to value your property at that date two years later.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: And in two years of separation, people have sold cars, they've sold houses, they've lots of stuff happens that then has to be unwound.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: So if you want to get away cleanly, prepare by getting your property settlement ready to rock so that when you separate, you can just sign it and file.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: That's my that's my advice.
30:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think it's very sound advice.
30:26
SPEAKER_04: And it's also sound advice with uh a separation that's perhaps not toxic, but having visibility, like if you know that you're going to separate and it is relatively amicable, even, having a clear idea of the asset pool liabilities, what goes in that bucket, being really clear about it is is important, really important.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: So for anybody in a relationship, get visible.
30:57
SPEAKER_04: If you don't already know where your money is and what your assets are and what your liabilities are, get clear.
31:03
SPEAKER_04: Get clear.
31:04
SPEAKER_04: Um legal advice.
31:07
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
31:08
SPEAKER_03: That's not le that's not legal advice, that's just life advice.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Like that is actually that is great life advice.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: Take control of your life now as much as you can.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Understand what's happening with your finances.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 100%.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: Great.
31:23
SPEAKER_04: There's some ridiculous statistics.
31:25
SPEAKER_04: I think it was, okay, I think it was a few years ago, 2018.
31:29
SPEAKER_04: Worthy did a did a survey.
31:32
SPEAKER_04: And 46% of women are financially surprised when they separate.
31:38
SPEAKER_04: 46%.
31:40
SPEAKER_04: There are some, you know, there are some financial surprises, and it can be level of debt, or you know, it could be a positive surprise.
31:47
SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
31:47
SPEAKER_04: But yeah, that really in 2018, that surprised me.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I think because I think the problem is we're still, as I said, we're in this this watershed moment in history where the past is still existing, but the future, the present doesn't match the present.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, my own parents, it's quite funny when we were growing up.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: I said to Mum, why are you washing up and dad's out mowing the lawn?
32:10
SPEAKER_00: She went, because I don't want to be in a bloody shed outside.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: I'm I want to be inside.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: We're doing exactly what we want.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, she was suggesting it.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: I was being a bit harsh, probably was.
32:20
SPEAKER_00: But it was really interesting.
32:22
SPEAKER_00: Years later, at that time, dad did all the financing, the finances, and mum did all of the shopping.
32:28
SPEAKER_00: And after we all left home, uh, one day dad just goes, I hate doing the finances.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: And mum said, I want to do the finances, and he loves shopping.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: So now she does all the finances and he does all the shopping, and they're both happy because they get to do the stuff they want.
32:42
SPEAKER_00: But this whole thing that men control the finances is again is not an indication that you're in a toxic relationship, potentially.
32:51
SPEAKER_00: It's just an indication that that's how it's always been done.
32:54
SPEAKER_00: And we have a moment right now, today, where we can change how it's done and we can move forward doing the things we want to do, irrespective of trauma.
33:02
SPEAKER_04: Now, I wanted to ask you particularly um about I know Solo Legal and you are trauma-informed.
33:11
SPEAKER_04: And I also know that some of our listeners will have no idea what that means.
33:16
SPEAKER_04: So can you explain what trauma-informed practice or what trauma-informed is, what it means, why it's important, especially in separation, divorce, family law?
33:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: To understand trauma, you have to understand how the brain works.
33:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and they believe that we have what's called a triune brain, which means there are three parts to it.
33:39
SPEAKER_00: There's a frontal lobe, which is the thinking bit, there's the limbic system in the middle, which is the feeling bit, and then there's the brain at the base of your spine called the basal ganglia, the top of your spine, sorry, that's called the basal ganglia, which is the reacting or the survival brain, that part of the triune brain.
33:58
SPEAKER_00: Trauma involves your brain perceiving through your eyes some kind of a threat.
34:04
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so in the olden days, it was a saber-toothed tiger, right?
34:07
SPEAKER_00: You're about to be, you're about to be jumped on.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Survival brain, just said to thinking and feeling brain, game over, it's my turn.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: Then they'd send signals to the body, get the adrenaline to your legs and your arms, and they'd say, run or punch it in the nose, or if you think you can't see you, just freeze.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: So it's that whole fight-flight um reaction that we're all quite familiar with now, which is good.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: I think people don't under don't know that threat doesn't have to be physical and it doesn't have to be real uh for the brain to react and put itself into survival mode.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: So if you are constantly denigrated, undermined, talked down to, the brain will start to perceive that as a threat.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: And it'll go into survival brain.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: That is called the amygdala hijack.
34:53
SPEAKER_00: So it's because the triggering, you know, all this sales nodding.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm smiling and nodding.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:00
SPEAKER_04: I'm I'm preaching to the choir when it comes to death.
35:03
SPEAKER_04: That's that's good because listeners need to hear it.
35:05
SPEAKER_04: So amygdala hijack, yeah.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And when amygdala hijack means thinking and feeling brain stop working so that you can react to the threat.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Understanding that will make you realize why that's not a great position to be in when it comes to family law, because if thinking brain isn't working, it's really difficult to make decisions.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, the more concerning aspect of the amygdala hijack is what they're coming to understand is that when you're in an intimate partner relationship, where you perceive threat over and over and over again is that your amygdala hijack is happening a lot.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: And when it happens a lot over time, so what it is is these traumas that are constantly happening.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: You spend all of your time in survival brain.
35:49
SPEAKER_00: And when they call it complex trauma, it's that's not the technical diagnosis, it's complex PTSD at this stage, but really what it is is complex trauma.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: And the real difficulty with this is when you have complex trauma, i.e., you're spending a lot of time in survival brain, your hippocampus, which is that part of the brain that stores memories, stops acting as a memory storer and starts sending cortisol through your body.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: So you'll find a lot of people who are in abusive relationships, whether they're physical, emotional, or psychological, have big gaps in memory.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And why that's really difficult is in you when you're in cross-examination, you go into the family court and you're giving evidence about stuff that happened and you can't remember because your brain wasn't creating memories, you look like you're making it up.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of issues with with the amygdala hijack and with trauma when it comes to family law.
36:43
SPEAKER_04: So that's what trauma is.
36:46
SPEAKER_04: What does being a trauma-informed practitioner what does that mean for you or for your clients?
36:54
SPEAKER_00: So, what it means when you're in amygdala hijack, there are as we've said, you can go fight or flight or you can go freeze.
37:00
SPEAKER_00: And fight or flight is called um being hyper um hyper, I've got now forgotten word, that's great.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: Is it hyper vigilant hyper vigilant?
37:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hyper, I can't remember.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, pretty much hyper-vigilant.
37:13
SPEAKER_00: And and so you can't make decisions.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: And if you so if you're fight or flight, or if you're in freeze, you can't make decisions, you're outside what they call the window of tolerance.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, so what you need to be in order to make decisions is to be in this calm space where thinking brain is activated.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: So to be a trauma-informed practitioner, you need to uh follow the principles of trauma-informed practice in order to make sure that your client has an active thinking brain when you're conversing with them.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and those principles, there's five principles of trauma-informed practice.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: They are safety, collaboration, choice, empowerment.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: And the fifth one.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: And I can't wait.
37:58
SPEAKER_04: The fifth one, we'll drop in the show notes.
38:00
SPEAKER_04: We'll drop in the show notes, the fifth one.
38:02
SPEAKER_04: Okay, we'll drop them in.
38:04
SPEAKER_04: But it's so what you're saying really about being a trauma-informed trauma-informed practitioner is that bringing your client out of fight flight, uh golly, fight flight-free and back into a space where they can disarm the amygdala hijack and actually make logical, rational decisions.
38:26
SPEAKER_04: They can absorb information.
38:28
SPEAKER_04: So that's really what trauma-informed practice means.
38:31
SPEAKER_04: Is that right?
38:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
38:34
SPEAKER_04: Caroline, today, September 1st, we're recording this episode, is a really interesting day for family law in Australia.
38:41
SPEAKER_04: Can you explain what's happening today and how you think that will change couples and families' experience of family law issues?
38:53
SPEAKER_00: So, today is a great day for the family law system in Australia.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: And what's happening today and what has happened is that the family court has merged with the Federal Circuit Court of Australia.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: To explain why that's important, I need to tell you that the family law or the family court was set up in 1975 as a single court designed to help Australian families separate.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: And it was designed as an alternative to the very strict and structured courts that existed in the past.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: This this went along fine until 1999, at which point the family court was overwhelmed, and reports are that the Attorney General decided to set up a second court, or it's called the Federal Circuit Court, which also did other things, not just family law things or matters, to deal with the kind of straightforward family law issues.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: So from 1999 to 2021, there were these two courts that were dealing with family law matters.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's been confusing.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: They have different sets of rules and they have different the same act but different rules and different things that they cover.
40:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and as you know, there's a lot of there's been a lot of criticism of the family law system, and I believe part of it is because you have two courts doing the same thing.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I believe today is a is a fantastic day for the family court in that it's come back together again.
40:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's it's going to be called the Family Court and Federal Circuit Court of Australia, FCFCOA, a mouthful.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh so I'm going to call it FCFC because that sounds to me like a Manchester football club.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: I like the idea of that.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: Um so the question is what will that change uh for families who are who are going through this?
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Technically, it just means one set of rules and an entry point.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: In and of itself, that's a great change, which I think is useful, especially for people who are self-represented going through the family law system, should make it easier for them.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: But I think the other thing that this change represents is a change in mindset of the family court and the judiciary.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm going to go back to that analogy of toxic relationships being bullies in the playground.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: When you go to the teacher, the playground teacher, if nothing happens and you're still being bullied, you have to go to the principal.
41:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, you have to say to the principal, this is what's been happening.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: Because otherwise, there's nowhere to go.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: You know, your mates can try and stand up and help you.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's important, but so a lot of things, a lot of the time you need we need the family court because toxic people who are manipulating their spouses are just going to manipulate all kinds of other interactions.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, negotiating with a toxic person as a lawyer is almost impossible because they will tell you that you can do X on one day and the next day they'll say you can't.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: And they'll change their mind and they'll renege on what they've agreed.
41:52
SPEAKER_00: So toxic people tend to um, they like to mess things around.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, and what's happened in the past is that the court wasn't aware of this, they didn't know about coercive control, they didn't know about how these people operate, they didn't know about emotional psychological abuse.
42:10
SPEAKER_00: They thought that it was if you're being punched, it's abuse, and if you're not, then it's not.
42:15
SPEAKER_00: So before the family court wasn't a safe place to go if you were leaving a toxic relationship.
42:22
SPEAKER_00: It was actually pretty unsafe because it was that whole, oh, he flicked your bra.
42:26
SPEAKER_00: Well, he must like you.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Or why didn't you leave earlier?
42:28
SPEAKER_00: Or it was victim blaming.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole lot of awful stuff that happened in the family court.
42:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, but what's been happening recently up in the lead up to the merger is that there's also been um some other stuff that the court is doing to finally understand how a toxic relationship works.
42:44
SPEAKER_00: And one of the other uh projects that has been trialled is something called the Lighthouse Project.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: And that's basically a specialist court for people who have experienced domestic violence.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: And they're trialing it.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: Have you heard about the Lighthouse Project?
42:59
SPEAKER_04: No, no, I haven't.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it is it is exactly what it says on the tin.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: It's a light for um targets of abuse.
43:06
SPEAKER_00: And they've trialed it in Adelaide, Brisbane, and Parramatta.
43:09
SPEAKER_04: Which is probably why I haven't heard about it.
43:11
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm gonna say, you know, I'd like to say to you and anybody else who's listening, we need to support this project as much as we can.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: And you the way you get you are eligible for the Lighthouse project is if you have a parenting only matter.
43:25
SPEAKER_00: So this is another reason why I say to you, don't try and do property and parenting together, the recipe for disaster.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: Do your property first and then you do parenting.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: And once you do your parenting, if you've been negotiating how to look after your children for a long time and you're not getting anywhere, and the other, you know, your husband is or your boyfriend is not reasonable and is not working with you in the way we talked about earlier, sometimes you have to go to the principal.
43:56
unknown: Yeah.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: And if there has been domestic violence, you don't have to go through.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Mediation.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to because I hate to say it, mediation is a wonderful tool, right?
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: But when two parties are amicable and they're both willing to come to a reasonable result.
44:14
SPEAKER_04: You can't mediate with someone who's toxic.
44:17
SPEAKER_04: You can't mediate with your abuser.
44:19
SPEAKER_04: You can't.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: No.
44:21
SPEAKER_00: And what it does is it makes you weaker and weaker because it takes its it takes a toll.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: And the problem is in the past we haven't had an alternative because the court wasn't safe either.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: But that changes today.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: And I my my my very strong hope is that the Lighthouse Project will be rolled out to all the Australian states because it is a safe place for people who experience abuse to go.
44:46
SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you why.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: So the first thing they do is they ignore the lawyers and they'll call the client.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: So they'll call the mother and say, tell me what's been happening.
44:57
SPEAKER_00: A trained psychologist will say, Tell me what's been happening.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: They go through a list and they they determine whether there's a traffic-like system, whether it's really dangerous or it's not.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: And then they push you through the system depending on how urgent your requirements are.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: That in itself is huge and a game changer.
45:16
SPEAKER_00: And throughout the process, they have trained psychologists who are working with directly with your clients.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: So not with me, because you know I'm the lawyer, I'm okay.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: It's actually the client who needs some of that kind of support.
45:28
SPEAKER_00: And I've had a couple of matters in the Lighthouse project, and the results have been incredible, empathetic, trauma-informed, uh, aware of the dynamics.
45:38
SPEAKER_00: Um the reason I'm excited today is that family law is changing.
45:44
SPEAKER_04: That's so good.
45:45
SPEAKER_04: The Lighthouse Project, I'm I will absolutely look it up and I will absolutely drop links into the show notes, but it's the trauma-informed arm of what was really dysfunctional previously.
45:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:57
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: It's it's really letting go of what didn't work.
46:02
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: And and and listen, they listen to all of these royal commissions and you know, all of these inquiries that we've had into the family law system.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: And they've said, here you go, this is what this is what we're going to do.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: So um, and it's really, really working.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: And actually, the other thing that has been a big criticism of the family court was that there was no training.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: There's there was nothing.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of people say it was a specialist court, it wasn't.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: The judges, what training do they have?
46:27
SPEAKER_00: So now what's happening with the Lighthouse Project is they're learning from the Safe and Together Institute.
46:31
SPEAKER_00: Um it's a really trauma-informed um institute that talks about perpetrator violence, what it looks like, and instead of victim blaming, which is what used to happen, it's really focusing on what the toxic partner is doing and how that impacts their target and the children.
46:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fantastic.
46:50
SPEAKER_04: So what it seems like to me is that this shift in the family law system is really about changing divorce from a legal problem to be solved by lawyers on court.
47:06
SPEAKER_04: So shifting it from a legal problem to a human problem with legal implications or impact.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, incredible insightful.
47:17
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly you just nailed it.
47:19
SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what's happening.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's exciting.
47:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's really exciting.
47:24
SPEAKER_04: It's so powerful.
47:25
SPEAKER_04: Lucky last question for you, Caroline, is something that I ask all my podcast guests if you could share one song with our listeners that would support them through navigating toxic relationship, through divorce, separation, what would your song be?
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Without a doubt, my song would be pink.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: All I know so far.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: Just perfect.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
47:54
SPEAKER_03: You mailed it.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:56
SPEAKER_00: Yay.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: But can I say I did think the words were throw your head back and spin in the wind?
48:04
SPEAKER_00: And I love the idea of spinning in the wind, but actually, she said spit in the wind.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you should spit in the wind.
48:12
SPEAKER_00: So if you can just, when you're listening to it, just spin in the wind instead of spitting in it.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: And then that's my ideal song.
48:17
SPEAKER_04: Perfect.
48:18
SPEAKER_04: Spin in the wind, pink.
48:20
SPEAKER_04: Awesome.
48:21
SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you so much, Caroline, for today.
48:24
SPEAKER_04: Um, I've learned a heap, and so I'm sure that the listeners will have learned heaps too.
48:28
SPEAKER_04: Thanks so much for being with us.
48:30
SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Al.
48:32
SPEAKER_04: That beautifully, perfectly imperfect chat with Caroline Parsons of Solo Legal is exactly what the Reflect podcast is all about.
48:44
SPEAKER_04: Real, raw, mistakes, laughter, talking over one another because we're really passionate about what we're sharing and being authentic enough to make mistakes, to stuff it up and to still share it with you guys.
48:57
SPEAKER_04: So I really hope you got something out of that.
49:00
SPEAKER_04: If any of it triggers you, there's a whole lot of resources in the show notes.
49:07
SPEAKER_04: Please access those.
49:09
SPEAKER_04: Feel free to reach out and DM me if that feels uh uh supportive for you.
49:15
SPEAKER_04: But if any of it triggers you, please, please reach out for support wherever you need it.
49:21
SPEAKER_04: As I said, there are a whole load of resources in the show notes should you need to access them.
49:27
SPEAKER_04: And I'm right here at the end of DM.
49:30
SPEAKER_04: So please reach out.
49:32
SPEAKER_04: Have a great day.
49:35
SPEAKER_04: I'm Stally Ann Hartnall, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
49:41
SPEAKER_04: You can follow me on Instagram at ReflectCoaching.
49:44
SPEAKER_04: And if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
49:49
SPEAKER_04: I'd also be so grateful if you could follow the podcast and repeat this episode so we can get it a whole lot more human just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life.
50:01
SPEAKER_04: I hope you join me next time for another episode.