Latest / More Than Before / Who Are You Without Your Career? | Andi Simon on Identity, Change & Purpose

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Who Are You Without Your Career? | Andi Simon on Identity, Change & Purpose · More Than Before

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If you let others on the outside define you, you're going to be
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pleasing people, not yourself. And it's difficult to please
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yourself when you're waiting for others to encourage you, endorse
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you, or do things that are in their minds what you should do,
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not in your mind. So what's your story?
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Hey everyone, welcome back. To become more than before, you
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have to be willing to rethink who you are.
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My guest today is a corporate anthropologist, podcaster,
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award-winning best selling author who has spent her life
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studying how people change, 1st as an academic, then as a
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business leader, and now helping redesign what comes next in
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life. But her greatest discovery isn't
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about business, it's about identity, helping people see,
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feel and think differently. Because at some point, we all
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face the question, who am I and what do I do beyond that?
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Andy Simon, welcome to More Than Before.
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How are you doing today? What a wonderful day to join you
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today, Nathan. Thank you for having me.
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Now you are, you're, I think you're the first person from New
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York that I've actually had on the podcast.
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So you get to break the mold today.
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Well, bring some more. It's not a bad place at all.
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Yeah, I know. Well, it's interesting.
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I know a lot of people that are from New York, but I don't know
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a lot of people who have lived there pretty much their entire
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life. I'm curious, what was life like
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growing up in New York as a child?
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Well, he never realized I was growing up in New York, which is
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always so interesting because as I listen to your podcast,
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there's a lot of identity connected to location.
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But I grew up in a suburb. And what was really more
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formative for me was that my family had a firm in Manhattan,
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a a wonderful retail company near Columbia.
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And so where we lived was contingent upon how long it took
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you to get inside in town and how long it took you to get home
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at night. And and so it's always been an
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interesting steering about where my grandmother lived within
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walking distance of the business and where my father could live
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within a quick drive from there. But growing up in the suburbs,
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it was a time of great transformation.
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I grew up in the 60s and, you know, it was a very difficult
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and wonderful time to be in an area going through its own
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transformation. The house that was built for me
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was built on an old farm. That farm is long gone.
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But you saw within, you know, an hour of New York City a lots of
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farms turning into houses and and now you have to go further
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north to do that. But it was a a real interesting
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time. Not long ago I was down in the
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same area. I grew up in New Rochelle and I
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went past the house still look good.
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It was still, but now my husband and I.
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My husband wanted to find a gentleman's farm.
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And so we live about 40 miles north of Manhattan, north of
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where I grew up, and it's about 8 acres on an old Petroon system
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farm that's 200 year old house with a barn and outhouse and a
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cottage. And occasionally I find old
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artifacts. And then you didn't have to dig
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much to find an old Kitsa bottle or old can of chewing tobacco.
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And, and realize that people have been living on the property
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for time. I think we've been in the house
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longer than anybody else. But it's an interesting place to
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be. And, and so, you know, an hour
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of train ride down into Manhattan.
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So it it serves us well. I love that it's so you had a
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sister correct too. What was what was, what was your
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relationship with your sister like and did were you guys
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mischievous? I, I, I don't know why.
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I feel like you might have been maybe a little bit more of the
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mischievous of the two of you. Well, I, it's always remember we
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have stories of ourselves and in my mind, I was always a good
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daughter and my sister was always a what if she had a
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curfew? She came in a little bit later
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than the curfew, but she always was pushing the envelopes just a
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little bit. And she was four years younger
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than I was and I lived a very different world four years.
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The Vietnam War was going on, anti war protests were going on.
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And she caught up in a good deal of those, went out to the
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University of Wisconsin and, and you know, it was a time of
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tumult. And so the two of us live
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different, different times, basically in similar ways, but
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very different experiences. And so I, I really think it's
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all a very interesting question about me and my sister because
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it was a period of time when we didn't talk very much and she
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was off doing her thing and I was doing mine.
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And later in life we came back together and reconciled.
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And her daughter is a wonderful niece and I love her dearly.
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And and she called me one day and she said, you're my aunt and
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I want you. And I said I'm here.
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And so, but family and our travels are are always very
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interesting to reflect on both in terms of who we are and what
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we value and and others who are related to us but not
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necessarily like us. Yeah, I love that you bring up
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the, the, the peace of family, but then also work on top of
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that because your family, it almost seemed like they all kind
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of took part within the business.
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It was kind of, you know, when you said, when we say family run
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business now, nowadays it's usually maybe one or two people
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that are involved. You know that many years ago
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when it, when it was a family business, everyone took place
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like my, my father cut hair and it was a family business because
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we didn't, we didn't cut hair, but we were all involved.
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We were all sweeping the floor. We were all cleaning everything,
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you know, every single weekend. That was one of the things, but
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at five years old was when you really started to take up this,
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this working kind of identity almost, isn't it?
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Cause 'cause I think if I remember correctly, you said
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that you were hanging shirts up on hangers.
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Yes, as a young child. You know, your stories become
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moralized on the things that made you.
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But the interesting word you just used.
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We're in the family firm. I didn't know I was in the
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family firm. We went down and I went down
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into the basement with Leo and we hung all the clothes that had
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to go on the racks that had to go up on on the floors.
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And and so you learned early about respectfulness and about
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how it had to look. You learned early about how
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people buy things. I watched my father and my
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mother at the dinner table talking about business and I
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thought it was really interesting.
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I was in a a learning mode. My sister, on the other hand,
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thought they were angry at each other.
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So, you know, it's interesting. Same conversations.
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My grandmother was a matriarch and, and I remember I wanted to
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write a book of what I learned standing at my grandmother's
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knee because she would be the one counting the money and, and
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with great precision, the images you have.
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But I my, my, one of my favorite memories, one of the things that
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I, I realized why I didn't want to be in the business was I went
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out with the with my mother and my grandmother often when we
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went on buying trips, we were buying the merchandise that was,
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that was learning to be a merchandiser.
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And I said to my grandma, how do you know what to buy?
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And she said, well, Andrea, she said, some we buy and we know
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that one third will sell full price, 1/3 will sell on sale and
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1/3 will walk out the door. Now if we buy wisely, we will
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make a living. And I went, oh, that's the
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precision with which we are purchasing.
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And she said, well, we've done really well, haven't we?
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And I said, and I said, that's the luck of the draw.
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And that's when I said, I'm not sure this is my business.
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And I was being raised to take an Hoover.
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And, and then when I discovered anthropology and said, I'm, I'm,
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I'm, I'm pursuing an academic career, they rolled their eyes.
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And it was, it was another, another plane for them to, you
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know, another platform for them to have to think about.
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And I never looked back, but I didn't realize I was supposed to
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take over the business. Oh, that's so good.
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So anthropology, what drew what drew you towards that?
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Was that was that something that you kind of were in intrigued by
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in school? What?
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Because I don't know a lot of people that are, you know,
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growing up nowadays and going, you know what, I really want to
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study anthropology. Well, I didn't and and so I, I
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have looked back on my life and said a lot of it is by
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serendipity. So I went off to Penn State.
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My father said, remember, it's the last time you can be
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irresponsible. And I remember thinking about
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what does that mean really? So I went and I rather than take
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a major because I couldn't decide on one, I took a general
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arts and science major and one of the social science courses
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was on anthropology. And I said, oh, that sounds
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interesting. And I sat there and I vividly
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remember the professor whose name I will never remember, but
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I can see him. And as he described the cultures
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and, and the evolution of humans and languages that we evolved
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with, I went, Oh my gosh, this is really something that feels
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like what I want to do. And the way we did it, I learned
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because we even went out and did anthropology research out in,
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in, in State College area. We went to a small village and
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we interviewed people there and I went, I can do this.
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So it was while I had put hangers on shirts, I knew I
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didn't want to do that, but I went out and began to meet with
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people in the small village outside of State College.
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At that time, it was really a rural area.
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I said, this is so interesting. How do we really get to know
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people by listening to what they tell us, watching what they're
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doing and begin to really be observers of a Society of
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humans? And that's when I had that aha
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moment, you know, when the brain goes whoosh and you go, oh, I
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wouldn't say that was my calling, I said, but it felt
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very much like identity, you know, where you found yourself.
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And I'm one of my favorite stories is when I met my
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husband. I was 19 and he was a little bit
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older and we were on a beach screwing like.
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And he said, what do you want to be when I grow up?
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I'm sorry, grown up, what do you want to be?
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And I said, well, I'm either going to be an attorney or an
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anthropologist. And he said, and he remembers it
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as well as I do, I'll be an anthropologist and I'll be here
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for you. And I went, OK, whatever that
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meant at that time. Well, we're married 58 years.
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So he's been here for thick and thin and all kinds of stuff.
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But but I, I was really something that just grabbed me.
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And then I went to Columbia University and took all my
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anthropology courses with all the best of the rest and became
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really someone who saw the world through the eyes of a an
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observer. And, and that's what people say.
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What do you do? I say hang out.
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They say, do you really want to know what's going on?
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Don't say anything. Just spend a day in the life of
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a customer. Watch them, listen to their
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conversations and you'll learn more than asking them questions
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or doing surveys. You'll get the real.
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Remember, humans are meaning makers.
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We put meaning, symbolic meaning onto things that have no meaning
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just because that's what we do. We have to make sense out of
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them. We talked about our culture in
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the business that we're in and we find that it's a very
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different culture than the folks, a similar business.
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We all do it our way and it's my curiosity was strong in my I, I
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had the unique ability at that time to pursue a career, get a
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tenure track position, get my tenure, be an academician.
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And I was on my way very happily with my post doc grads and, and
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taking my daughter's to Greece to study Greek women.
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You know, that seemed to be my calling.
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Yeah, it's interesting because anthropology really focusing on,
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you know, culture and people. And there I, I remember an
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anthropology class when I was in college and we were studying
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essentially, you know, the table, everything happens around
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the table. And for much of your life, I
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feel like there's this, there's this aspect of being gathered
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around the table. Yes, there's the business
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aspect. There's also the family aspect.
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I'm curious, as you look back on those dinners with your family,
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what are some of those like big moments of, of just observing
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things and going, ha, this is the way the world works.
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This is, this is kind of the turnkey moment in life of this
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is how we interact with other people.
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Do you remember anything kind of like that?
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Well, your question is a wonderful question because
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eating around the dinner table has diminished in importance so
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dramatically. People are eating on, on the on
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the run, on the go. And so dinner table for me
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growing up was significant. My mother was home in time, she
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worked, but she got home in time to cook dinner.
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And we sat around the table and my father and mother had their
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time and we sat and watched them talk.
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As we grew up, as my daughters grew up, my husband and I tried
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to replicate that to a degree, but both my daughters became
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horse women as kids and we, they rode at a barn about an hour
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from the home. And so our dinner was a little
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different. I would pick them up and we
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would stop at Peach Lake, pick up, take out dinners, eat on the
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way home, and then when we got home did our homework.
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And I say our homework because it was really a collaboration
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around a lifestyle that couldn't really easily take place around
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the dinner table, but in fact, how to take around time around a
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conversation. Now, remember, there were no
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iPhones, no distraction, and we could talk about school, We
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could talk about the horses. The horses have been a critical
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part of really bringing together our family over the years.
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My husband didn't ride, but when I met him, I was already a horse
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woman. And so he picked it up right
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away. And we fox haunted for 25 years.
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And my daughters both rode and rode competitively.
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My granddaughters are both excellent horse women.
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One of my granddaughters won the California Horse Woman of the
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Year award this past. Yeah, and my other granddaughter
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is riding beautifully, still in high school.
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But it is, it's been an interesting bonding and and I'm
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convinced that horses bring out in humans the very best,
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sometimes the worst in us, but it is it, it's special.
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So we had this farm. The first thing we got were
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horses and, and so around the table were all the things we did
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around the horses and our our home.
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But, but it was important that we did things together.
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We skied together, you know, we traveled together.
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Together was part of, at least in my memory, the way in which
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we and my family grew up. So it was even though I worked
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in Buffalo for a year and I commuted every week.
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My husband was Mr. Mr. Dad and and so it's it's always
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interesting to look back. So wonderful question, Nathan.
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Thank you for asking him. Yeah.
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You know, it's, it's very interesting because we are
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living in a world where it feels like family dynamics are
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completely thrown off. We don't gather around the
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dinner table. My family, we do, we, we
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actually sit down. We're very intentional.
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We light a candle to kind of commence the start of our dinner
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now. But it it's really interesting
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that you bring that up because it's not just the dinner
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component. It's the slowing down to have a
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conversation. And even though you weren't
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around the dinner table, you guys were very intentional about
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having the conversation. As you look around now, as you
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get to meet different people, study people, where, where do
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you see the dynamics now in terms of interactions?
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Because it feels like there aren't a lot of people that are
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really connecting on the deep level that they need to, as we
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do as human beings to be able to feel like we're part of a
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cohesive community, really. You know, I did a podcast with a
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woman the other day and she was talking about organizing homes.
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And so I'll answer the question as she and I were discussing how
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difficult it was to do research on the home today.
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She said only a small percentage of all the families are husband,
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wife and children. 40% of the children are born to single
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moms. They're being raised in homes
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that don't follow the model that you're describing.
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And so sitting down at the table as catch as catch can now, I
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describe the life built around our interest in the horses and
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how we had to modify that table. But for many kids growing up,
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they're growing up. They come home and they are
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alone. When I was in, I did work at a
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hospital in Flint, MI, for four years as a consultant.
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And I did a lot of work with the food bank there.
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And a lot of the kids didn't know how to cook the food they
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were getting from the food bank. And their concern was the
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malnourishment of the children because when they went home,
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they had a cook, but they didn't know how to cook.
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And the parent who came home came home late and often we
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catched as we could. And so the lack of, of
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conversation, of really understanding of really, you
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know, we talked about identity and meaning.
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The 1st place you get your meaning is in your home.
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But what, who am I? Why am I important?
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Who am I important to? And how are these important
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rituals for for the gathering? Now you go back to primitive
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societies and, and I must tell you, if you were in a hunting
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gathering, the women gathered, the grandmas often took care of
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the kids and gathered and the men went off and tried to catch
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a game. It wasn't always successful, but
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the around the fire around the table was where we learned, we
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shared, we gained our place in the community.
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We celebrated our wins and mourned our losses.
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And that's where our our identity was formed.
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So I, you know, well, I described something that didn't
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fit a typical mold. The desire that came from it
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was, was clear. And I must say my husband grew
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up in a home where father mother sitting at the table with
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grandmother was, was pretty typical.
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You know, it was the center of our family.
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You also brought up horses. Horses, I think, I think it's
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fascinating because people who ride horses are just not to be
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funny, but they're a different breed.
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They, they, the, the intensity that you have to take care of a
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horse is it's a lot of work and I don't think people understand
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what goes into keeping a horse, one, alive, but two, keeping a
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horse healthy to be able to ride them and to be able to have a
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happy horse. I'm curious, you know, when you
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were a kid, what do you remember about learning and observing
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horses and maybe even going into a little bit of, of what you
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took away from Bill Quinn, someone who really helped you to
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become a better equestrian. Well, you know, so it's
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interesting as a child you, I don't know, you dream of things.
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And so we moved up to the suburbs and there was a riding
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place not far by and my mother was really wonderful and I got
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a, an hour a week on a horse and I was in heaven.
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And then I headed off to summer camp and there was Bill Quinn
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who had the horses. And now in those days that was
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not uncommon, but Bill was a very kind and caring and
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education. He wanted to teach me.
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And so while everyone else was playing softball, I was down at
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the barn and he showed me how to drive a sulky with a pony in
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front of it. And he would like me take the
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other riders up the mountain to the Stissing mountaintop.
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And we would go up through the trails and we would go into town
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and tie up a horse and have breakfast at the diner.
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And, and I, I remember him taking me to an auction and
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there was an auction and they were selling all kinds of
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things, saddles and bridles and horses.
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It was still a time when horses were common.
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And, and he would say to me, do not raise your hand.
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Whatever you do, do not raise your hand.
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And so the the learning I had, but I also learned about how do
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you take care of a horse? You know, the cleaning and the
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feeding and what kind of food and when.
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And the, you know, of course, is that need a habit, They need a
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ritual. And any time isn't a good time.
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And, and so as I, when my daughters were born, we adopted
20:48
ponies here. And I remember coming home from
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work and my, my nanny was out there.
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The girls were in the field on their ponies with a curse,
20:55
tight, not very tight, but it didn't matter.
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They were galloping around the field having a good time.
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And so horses were part of life. And, and that's what I wanted.
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I had pictures of them taking the horses down the road at a
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time when this road was really never much traveled.
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It was really a back Rd. And and they they had to
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remember for 4000 or more years, we rode horses and kids learn to
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ride ponies and horses as the only means of transportation.
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And it wasn't a big deal. It's how you you learned it.
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And so once you began to relax about it, it was, it was part of
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our world. And so I was glad my daughters,
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you know, there, there was nothing that said you have to
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love this. And I remember at one point when
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they were in school, they could play field hockey or go riding.
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No, no question about it. You know, horses were what
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matters. And they built their friendships
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around there. They built their identities
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around them. My daughters both still ride
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and, and, and I have pictures of them with their my
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granddaughters, not my grandson, my granddaughters right by the
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ponies with their babies. My grandson is wonderful and I
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love him dearly, but horses are not his thing.
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So you know it. It's a guy thing today.
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But remember that, you know, out West the guys are all on horses
22:10
wrestling cattle. And when we went down to
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Argentina, we rode with all the guys going out to wrestle the
22:16
cattle. And so I, I just, I, I, I love
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horses. I miss horses.
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Yeah, it's funny because as I was watching some of your
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podcasts and doing some research on you, I was like, what is with
22:29
the giraffe? And then, and then as I started
22:32
to kind of understand your love for horses, I was like, oh, like
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I was telling my wife this last night, I said she a giraffe is
22:40
essentially just a horse with a really long neck.
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And that's, that's essentially what I came to.
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But then, but then there's so many different intentional
22:49
pieces about the giraffe of having, you know, a different
22:52
perspective, being able to see things at a higher level of
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their gentle creatures and, and how they interact.
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And so there's so many really cool things like how intentional
23:03
you are, not only about branding and business, but also just how
23:07
you live in life. I'm curious, where does where
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does the intentionality come from in life?
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Is there someone who kind of taught you to look at life and
23:17
to be maybe maybe direct or maybe be focused so that you
23:22
could get to where you are today?
23:25
That's a good question. I, I, you know, we, we, we at
23:30
least I this thinking that I am the strong willed person who can
23:37
do it on my own more than anything else.
23:41
I want to go to the giraffe for one second.
23:43
Though we had come back, we had been on horseback riding safaris
23:47
in Africa twice. And you become very appreciative
23:50
when you're galloping with giraffes.
23:52
And my, my designer said, oh, giraffes have 4 legs on the
23:56
ground and can see far into the future.
23:59
And I laughed. I said that's a good icon for
24:01
me. But going back to being
24:02
intentional, I have learned over the years that you can make
24:07
mistakes, but the doors open and you can either go through them
24:10
intentionally or or not. And most of the time I'm curious
24:14
and I go through them. Some work, some haven't, but I
24:17
and, and sometimes I will ask others.
24:20
But more often than not, my husband and I are the decision
24:22
makers about our lives. And we've learned over the years
24:25
that we support each other for better or worse.
24:28
Or go through the door. Let's see what happens.
24:30
And sometimes for him it has been really, really good and
24:33
sometimes not so good. And then for me, most of the
24:36
time really good. And I, I'm, I mentor people and
24:39
I tell them it's all with you. It's your story.
24:43
How do you want to craft it? Take charge of it.
24:46
Because if you let others on the outside define you, you're going
24:50
to be pleasing people, not yourself.
24:52
And it's difficult to please yourself when you're waiting for
24:55
others to, you know, encourage you, endorse you or do things
24:59
that are, are in their minds, what you should do, not in your
25:03
mind. So what's, what's your story?
25:06
And I have a, you have a strong story as well because being a
25:09
podcaster, you know, my, my, when my first book came out, a
25:13
little history there, my PR woman said, you should do a
25:16
podcast. And you know, this is quite a
25:19
while ago. And I said, what's that?
25:21
You know, So she said, I'll put you on a couple.
25:23
And I, he said, I can do better than that.
25:25
And unlike you, they were three questions an out.
25:31
And I said, now let's, let's make this a value to the person
25:35
I'm interviewing and to the people who are in the audience,
25:37
not about me. And it's, it's about them.
25:41
And once you got past that, well, who, what, what are we
25:43
doing here? I had such fun doing it.
25:46
And it opened up doors in ways. So with intentionality, I, I
25:51
didn't want to monetize it. I didn't want to be obligated to
25:55
anybody else. I just wanted to share.
25:57
And I wanted to share curious stories to help people get off
26:00
the brink because we're all on the brink of one way or another.
26:03
And if I could help somebody move forward, that would be my
26:06
joy. So it's a great word.
26:09
And I think that, you know, as I'm looking at the world I'm at
26:12
now and the people I'm working with, I'm, I'm trying to get
26:15
them to be intentional about what they're going to be doing,
26:18
particularly in the next stage of their life, because it's,
26:21
it's all in their hands. It's important now for them to
26:24
take charge. Yeah, it's true.
26:27
And I think a lot of people don't take charge of their life.
26:31
I used to say this when I first started doing coaching and
26:34
speaking. I used to say I actually had it
26:37
written on a little card and it was that life is our lives are
26:41
like pens, and we all choose to pick up the pen off the table.
26:44
We choose to write either a great allegory or we choose to
26:47
write a couple of small little phrases and we get to choose.
26:51
But at one point in our life, the pen dries up.
26:55
And so choose your words carefully of how you show up in
26:58
your life. I'm curious as you look back,
27:01
there's, there was a point in your story that was, that was
27:04
fascinating to me that you were introducing yourself to someone
27:08
as an anthropologist and your daughter looked at you and said,
27:12
well, aren't you also a mom? Aren't you also a wife?
27:16
Like isn't there more to you? You take us back to that moment
27:21
of of kind of how that started to shift the way, maybe not in
27:25
that exact moment, but how did that start to shift the
27:28
trajection of where you wanted to write your story?
27:32
A great question. The moment was at a party for me
27:38
and I was thanking the people who came.
27:41
It was a great outdoor party at my home and I was really honored
27:45
to be there. And I and we were talking about
27:47
critical moments in our lives where things happen and, and you
27:53
take the moment and you run with it.
27:55
And, and I, as I introduced myself and I said this was when
27:58
I discovered, as when you and I are talking, that I really was
28:01
an anthropologist. People say, do you do it still?
28:04
I say, well, I am it and whether I do it or not isn't important.
28:07
And, and afterwards my daughter came over to me and quietly
28:11
said, Mom, you never recognized us.
28:15
You're a wonderful mother. We know you love us, but that's
28:18
not part of who you are. And I went, I, I, that was a
28:22
mirror moment where I went, holy crow, you know, I had so
28:27
identified myself with that that I missed all the other parts to
28:32
it. Now I must tell you, they are
28:34
the most loving and wonderful daughters and they know I love
28:37
them. But that moment was a critical
28:40
turning point for me because I never heard myself.
28:45
And my husband is a wonderful supporter and he's a very
28:48
successful serial entrepreneur and has his own identity.
28:53
But why do we get locked onto the way we do something as
28:57
opposed to all the other dimensions of, of where we are?
29:01
And, and I think that as I look at the next stages for our
29:05
lives, I'm going to try and balance those.
29:08
And I must say that I have reached the point where spending
29:11
time with family has become much more of my purpose than the
29:15
business side of it. And, and I'm I'm pretty
29:18
intentional about trying to make sure we have as much time as we
29:21
can as my grandkids are all growing up and my daughters are
29:25
all growing up and so are we. But you can easily slide by, you
29:30
know, I'm, I'm pretty accomplished in my business.
29:33
Am I equally accomplished in the other roles that we play?
29:36
And, and why does it not strike me as being as important?
29:40
So being reflective, I have we find the way I introduce myself
29:46
and, and I must say that at networking things, there's still
29:50
a tendency to see when people say, what do you do?
29:53
And I, and I, I tell them a little bit about the story, just
29:56
a little bit. I'll tell you what I do, but who
29:57
I am is a different story. And, and so it's it's important,
30:01
it's important for your listeners to begin to think
30:03
about that story themselves. So good question.
30:07
It's interesting that the question of what do you do?
30:10
I was just thinking about this as you were talking about it,
30:12
that the question of what do you do in networking.
30:15
I don't know if I try to ask that question as much anymore.
30:18
I I'm more interested in the person and you know what, like
30:23
asking the person, what do you love?
30:25
What do you love to do outside of work?
30:27
And it kind of throws people off.
30:29
What do you, what do you mean outside of work?
30:31
Like, you know, on your off time, like do you do things with
30:33
your family? Do you have a family?
30:35
Do you have hobbies? Like what are those things that
30:37
are really fascinating to you? And you know, you know what's
30:41
surprising to me as there are a lot of really odd hobbies that
30:46
people have that are just fascinating to learn about, like
30:48
beekeeping. I've learned a lot about
30:50
beekeeping in the last year just from people that I know that
30:53
like to do beekeeping. And there's just something about
30:57
being interested in the person that really does draw out a
31:01
fascination with us. And much to what you've talked
31:05
about even on your podcast, is that letting people understand
31:09
that they've been heard is really important as you look
31:13
back. I love that you say this term
31:15
mirror moment. I don't think I've heard the
31:17
mirror moment before, which I think it's brilliant.
31:19
I, I might steal that from you, the mirror moments for you.
31:24
What are some other mirror moments that you've had in your
31:26
moment that have caused you to reflect and maybe even make a
31:30
small shift? Maybe at the time it seemed like
31:33
it was small, but that small shift really did change the
31:37
direction of where you were going.
31:40
Great question. Again.
31:41
So the career, the life we live sort of evolves in different
31:49
ways. And so I think the very first
31:52
mirror moment that was transformative was I was a
31:56
tenured professor. I had gotten my PHDI had a post
32:00
doc. I was pursuing a career that I
32:03
had desired. That was me.
32:06
And at a cocktail party, my husband was at Citibank and
32:10
Citibank was going through deregulation.
32:12
This is quite a few years ago. And they were bringing in
32:15
consumer package people to help them become more of a sales and
32:19
service company. And we're having a conversation.
32:22
And, you know, it was a wonderful conversation with key
32:24
leaders. You know, I don't know where the
32:27
page high was there, but John Reid was there.
32:28
We rather, you know, senior people at a cocktail park.
32:32
And they were asking your question, like mine, about what
32:36
you did. And I said, you know, I'd really
32:37
love to study how people change. And one of the folks said, why
32:40
don't you come help us change? And and I went, oh, I don't know
32:46
anything about banking. And they said, and we know
32:48
nothing about anthropology. I said, this sounds like I
32:51
should do that as long as we're both going through this great
32:55
transformation. What is it I could bring to you
33:00
as a perspective? And they were game.
33:03
So they hired me. I took a leave of absence for a
33:05
year and I saved some every moment because they reflected
33:08
back to me and need and learned early that it wasn't what I did
33:12
is what people need. And that's what hooks you
33:15
together. And so I then I became a banker
33:18
by, by, by chance, not by intention.
33:22
And then I became intentionally A banker and I became senior
33:25
vice president of Poughkeepsie Savings Bank.
33:27
I bought their first computer, launched their first ATM.
33:30
I'll date myself. But these were times that were
33:33
changing in an industry that was, it was still the Bank of
33:36
FDR. I mean, that's how they saw, saw themselves.
33:40
And, and I, I took over a bank as an EVP that had blown up his
33:43
back office and, and I kept moving into situations where
33:48
people had broken things or unmet needs and I was the need
33:53
fixer and others were showing me who I was projecting, not that I
33:59
necessarily knew what the heck I was doing.
34:01
And I arrived at this bank and the examiners came the next day.
34:05
And my attitude was always, of course we can, we'll figure it
34:08
out. And then once that became mantra
34:11
for me, I realized that it didn't much matter what was
34:14
broken. We could figure it out.
34:16
And I, so I, I all through our lives, if we are thinking of
34:21
this as a way of looking at ourselves backwards from the
34:23
mirror, others are echoing back and all of a sudden you're
34:27
evolving as a person. If we asked about
34:30
intentionality, did I intend to become a banker?
34:33
No. Did I love every minute of it?
34:35
Yes. Mostly because I could be me.
34:38
They, they didn't quite know what me was, but they had a need
34:41
and I had a way of helping people change.
34:45
And so it's, it's always been. And my last illustration of that
34:51
is when I launched my business, I had a great PR for him.
34:53
And John Rosika, listen to me tell my story.
34:56
And he said, oh, Andy, you're a corporate anthropologist that
34:58
helps companies change. And I went, bingo.
35:01
And that was my, my mirror moment because he echoed back to
35:04
me all the things I said I had done, but not who I was.
35:08
And that's how he framed the company and how I formed it.
35:12
Now, I realized right away that people didn't need
35:15
anthropologist. They needed to change.
35:17
I humbled myself to realize, just focus on what they need and
35:21
you know how to fix it. They don't know how you're going
35:23
to do it. I may not even know how I'm
35:25
going to do it. But if you believe that, that's
35:27
what you bring to the puzzle. That's the piece that you can
35:31
add. It becomes a part of who you
35:33
are. I love that you bring up this
35:36
topic of change because we are in an ever changing world and
35:41
the world that we live in today is completely different than it
35:44
was yesterday. Like it, it's moving so
35:47
astronomically faster than it ever has before in the past, yet
35:53
people really don't like to change.
35:55
And I've, I've heard you had people on your podcast that, you
35:58
know, talked about people really love to change.
36:01
I don't know a single person likes change.
36:03
No, no person really actually loves change.
36:07
So I'm curious on your take on this, especially from the
36:10
equestrian angle. How do you how do you get a
36:13
horse to drink? You can lead it to water, but
36:16
you can't get it to drink. I have my thoughts on this, but
36:19
how do you get people to drink the change that that needs to
36:23
take place in their life or in their business when they don't
36:26
want to? I answer the horse 1 You make
36:31
them thirsty or you add a little, I'll call it a sweetener
36:38
into the water and they are drinking the sweetener as much
36:42
as the water. But but for people, we were we
36:46
we have survived and evolved because we've been with a brain
36:52
that resists the unfamiliar on the unknown.
36:55
The oldest reptilian part of the brain, the amygdala, creates
36:59
something called cortisol that hurts literally in your brain
37:02
when you're learning something new.
37:04
Just try to go to the office in a new direction, you know, don't
37:07
let the GPS take you and try and figure it out without looking at
37:11
a map. You know, and, and you'll find
37:13
how much work it is and how the brain is struggling with it.
37:17
I mean, think you're out in the, in the, you know, I've been to
37:20
Africa several times and you're out there and you don't know
37:23
where the lion is around the Bush.
37:24
It startles you and your brain is designed to protect you.
37:28
And So what is it they make to tell you to do?
37:30
Flee it, fear it and, you know, appease it and do anything but
37:35
agree with it. And so, you know, when I work
37:38
with people and they say, well, you know, the first thing they
37:42
say is we hired you to help us change.
37:43
And the second thing they say is, no, we don't do that.
37:45
I said, I know that's why we're going to try and change it.
37:49
But but in fact, often you live the story in your mind.
37:54
You know, I don't want to get too technical here, but by and
37:57
large, we have a wonderful story in our minds.
38:00
Our mind's eye is all designed to make us the hero in the
38:02
story. We don't see the world as it is.
38:04
We see the world as we are. And that makes us, you know, the
38:07
hero or the heroine. Now, things change every minute.
38:11
We don't even know what they mean, much less what to do with
38:13
it. The words aren't an action.
38:15
They aren't a picture. What is it you want me to do?
38:18
And so I, I'll try my best to make sense out of it, but I
38:22
it'll fit into my old story. And so I tell people and
38:26
companies, if you want to change, have a crisis or create
38:28
one, be thirsty and you will drink the water.
38:31
I love that because that's, that's what I that's kind of my
38:34
view as well. If the horse doesn't want to
38:35
drink water, just go run it until it's ready to drink water
38:39
then or, or you know, get a salt lick.
38:41
I don't know. There's there's a lot of
38:42
different ways you can do it right.
38:44
You get a thirsty enough, you'll drink the water.
38:47
Yeah, but I think I think, you know, salt is a really amazing
38:52
element that we have in our world.
38:54
There's so many different things you can do with it.
38:55
I've talked about it before on the podcast with other people,
38:58
and salt is just really fascinating.
39:00
But you can use it in order to make something that is so
39:06
desirable. When it's hot, it can create
39:09
more desire for what it is that you want people to have.
39:13
And when it look, when you look around in your life and you
39:16
think, man, I really don't want change.
39:17
I don't want this thing to change.
39:19
You start to ask yourself, well, what's what's the danger of
39:21
staying here? What's the saltiness?
39:24
Sprinkle a little bit of salt on that.
39:25
Do a little. What was the guy salt Bay where
39:28
he did the whole like arm thing there.
39:31
There's just something about this that we all need a little
39:35
bit of a little more salt and I in our life, I think, to get us
39:39
to stop looking at ourselves as the main character.
39:42
I love that you bring that up like the hero, 'cause we really
39:45
do. Everyone thinks like the
39:47
universe surrounds them and they are, you know, they walk in the
39:52
room and hey, the party is here. We're even taught this really as
39:55
a young child, right? And there is something I feel
39:59
like as you get older and you age, you start to look around
40:03
the world and you say, how can I be a supporting character?
40:06
How can I support the people around me?
40:08
How can I lift the people around me?
40:10
At least we hope people get to that point.
40:14
As you reflect back, you know of the people who have really made
40:18
an impact in your life, who are some of those key people that
40:21
have really spoken into your life and what are some of those
40:25
lessons that have carried over and have really maybe stood the
40:29
test of time? You look backwards and you try
40:33
and reflect on both your life and that question.
40:37
I think that my mother was an extraordinarily strong woman.
40:41
And I remember our conversations both in the car and at the
40:45
dinner table, sometimes with great vividness.
40:48
So you you look back and you begin to realize the impact she
40:51
had. She very much said to me, I
40:54
don't really care what other people think.
40:55
I care what you think. I don't really care what other
40:59
people are doing. I care what you're doing now,
41:01
being young girl growing up, I didn't really know what I
41:05
thought and I wasn't quite sure what I was doing.
41:09
But I did know that my mother's influence made it sound like, of
41:16
course, you know what you're going to decide.
41:19
It'll be your decision. And and while you can be friends
41:22
with all these people, don't let them make up your mind for you.
41:25
So as we talked about who you become, part of, it is framed by
41:30
those folks early on who are telling you about how they think
41:35
you should be. Now, I wasn't rebellious, but I
41:38
was very concerned about pleasing.
41:42
And and then I slowly realized that I had to please me if I was
41:46
going to ever please anybody else.
41:48
But as I matured, when I was in Graduate School, Ernestine
41:53
Friedel was my mentor, was my advisor.
41:55
And this was the woman who had gone to Greece and studied
41:57
Vasilitha and she had a book about it and she was a great
42:01
anthropologist and, and I, I mimicked her.
42:04
I really, since I were copycats, humans were copycats.
42:08
I didn't have anyone else to mimic and I had others, Mervin
42:12
Megget and Mel Ember names it the, the world what may or may
42:15
not know, but I, I, I really found Ernie Friedle was
42:20
memorable. And, and as she and I, I
42:25
remember feeling so incompetent and very confident.
42:28
And that kind of was that I needed to be full of the
42:32
confidence and the confidence. So it was, it was interesting.
42:37
And then over time, I was often the only or the first woman in
42:42
AC suite. You know, I was in one bank, I
42:46
was in another bank and, and there was a woman at M&T Bank
42:51
who became a bit of a mentor and, and it was a guy's world
42:55
and, and she would give me wisdom.
42:59
She had progressed higher up than I had.
43:01
And I was on a ladder climbing and it wasn't clear how to
43:05
progress, whether I even wanted to.
43:08
But you needed somebody to give you perspective of the pluses
43:12
and minuses of that climb up the ladder.
43:15
Nothing is without limitations. And then as I've been doing my,
43:21
my own business, I think that the woman who has really been
43:25
the most influential in my, my recent years is, is a wonderful
43:31
woman who I wrote my third book with.
43:33
And, and, and Edie Frazier is her name and she is a I, I, it's
43:39
hard to explain what Edie is, but she's just extraordinary.
43:44
I mean, this woman has won 91 awards, but she's just all over
43:49
the things that are right to do and the right ways to do things.
43:52
She came to me by chance. Somebody I knew in my second
43:56
book is called Rethink Smashing the Myths of Women in Business.
43:59
And she said, you should have her any, you should have Edie
44:02
Frazier review it. And I said, who's Edie Frazier?
44:06
Oh, you'll love her. OK, so I met her and and she did
44:11
a wonderful review and bought 200 books.
44:13
And and then I got a call, not after a long time, after short
44:17
time after the book was done. You want to write another book?
44:20
And I, I don't know, Edie, I said, sure, what about I'm not
44:24
sure. I said, well, I can do that.
44:27
And and so let's build a book together.
44:29
And so we did. And this book called Women Mean
44:32
Business has 102 women in it. And each of them gave us five of
44:37
their wisdoms. But I learned from Edie about
44:41
relationships, about what women were doing and what I could do,
44:45
what my purpose was, how I had meaning, where it was.
44:50
It was more than just being in business.
44:52
It was really, really trying to change, say, the world and that
44:57
that's really LED into all kinds of interesting things.
45:01
We just did a young Enterprising Women event this past 222
45:05
Mondays ago, today's Tuesday, you know, a week ago.
45:08
And we did it at Mount Saint Mary College in Newburgh.
45:11
We brought in 130 girls. And I share this with you
45:14
because it was it was eating. And Monica Smiley, the head of
45:18
Enterprising Women magazine, who urged me to try and do this.
45:21
Now, I've never done this before.
45:23
I had no idea how to do it. Now, we were doing it in 28
45:26
cities this year and it had started, you know, 2 decades
45:30
ago. But I was a newbie.
45:32
And when you're in new in a novel place, and I said to my
45:35
colleague at the university, I've never done it.
45:38
You've never done it. What's the worst that can
45:39
happen? Let 10 girls come.
45:40
We had 130 girls come and every school in the area had a waiting
45:44
list. Now we were there to help girls
45:47
understand what science, technology, engineering and math
45:49
could do. And so when you talk about who
45:51
influences you, that the little push over the edge of all course
45:56
you can, I'm not quite sure how. And you keep reaching out and
46:00
you begin to get echoes back and you have conversations and you
46:04
show up and next thing you know, 130 girls are having a day.
46:07
And the university is having an opportunity to talk about their
46:10
wonderful science, technology, engineering and math programs.
46:13
And the Dean has a platform on which to celebrate the
46:16
accomplishments. And all came about because of
46:19
the influence of these other women on who I am and how I did
46:23
it. I love it.
46:24
It's a great story and I love that.
46:26
I love that you've written so many great books.
46:29
You know, from On the Brink, Rethink Women Mean Business, and
46:33
now Rethink Retirement. I'm curious.
46:37
It seems as if across all of your books, it feels like you've
46:41
kind of been asking the same question in a different way,
46:44
which is how do people change when who they've been is no
46:48
longer working? When it when who we are showing
46:51
up in life as in that moment is no longer really, it's no longer
46:56
resonating with the circumstances it well, as you
47:01
look back on your work, what would you say the silver lining
47:05
is in your work that has culminated?
47:08
Maybe you didn't know at the time, but now it's culminated to
47:10
this point of where you are now of helping people with that next
47:13
step of what does it mean to close a chapter in the book of
47:18
this particular occupation And going into the next chapter,
47:22
what would you say that silver lining is?
47:25
The the, the curiosity that I have is how to help people take
47:31
the problem and solve it in a different way.
47:34
To your point, what's the silver lining?
47:36
I liked when people said to me, what do you bring?
47:39
And I said, I'd like to bring fresh land so people can see
47:42
what's really happening and begin to adapt.
47:45
The first book was how a little anthropology can help your
47:47
business grow. And each of the companies that I
47:50
had as clients were stuck or stalled.
47:53
There's nothing more painful than not being able to figure
47:55
out a way out of this stock stalled state, a product not
47:58
selling, a college, not getting more students.
48:01
Everything you're doing is doing it better, but nothing is
48:03
working. And that was my, my, my gift in
48:06
a sense. And I really think is gifting
48:09
when you're sharing other people's stories so others can
48:12
begin to think about how to do it better.
48:14
Brought me lots of great clients.
48:15
I was in Mexico three times, India twice.
48:17
I mean, it's really interesting what a book can do.
48:21
The second book, Rethink, my husband and I had a program
48:24
called the Simon Initiative for Entrepreneurship at Washington
48:26
University in St. in Saint Louis.
48:28
And the women who are in the program said, I need role
48:31
models. And I said I could do that.
48:33
And so went and began to interview successful women who
48:36
could be role models. It sounded like a good book.
48:39
And as I'm reading the stories to my husband, he said, you
48:42
know, these women are smashing the myths of women in business.
48:45
And I went, oh, that's an even better book and rewrote the
48:50
whole book. And my, my editor said, let's
48:53
call this rethink. And I went, yes, it's a myth set
48:56
of holding people back. And here are, you know, women,
49:00
11 women who said, of course I can.
49:02
A geologist in aerospace, someone who's CEO, someone who's
49:06
a turn around artist, someone who's an attorney, people who
49:09
could really say women said, of course we can.
49:12
So if there's a lining to my thinking is how can we begin to
49:16
show people what they don't think can happen?
49:19
The myths are holding them back. The third book with Edie was all
49:21
about 102 women who said of course we can and showed us how.
49:25
And this new book came about because I was curious about what
49:29
is retirement and why don't my husband?
49:32
My husband and I do not want to enter that stage.
49:35
We love what we do. Are we being selfish?
49:37
Are we missing something? And so that's where I began to
49:41
rethink what retirement is and how to help me and him
49:46
understand what this next stage look like to people and whether
49:50
we were wise or not wise for saying I'm not going to.
49:53
So that's the thread. I'm curious, but I'm also trying
49:57
to see it in a different way. And that fresh Lands even for
50:01
me, is to say, well, that's what people write about.
50:04
It's all about financial planning, but really it's not
50:05
what life is about at all. So what's going on here?
50:09
Yeah, you've had such an incredible life and it's it's a
50:13
rich life. That's why I think it's so
50:15
incredible about your life is that it's rich in so many
50:18
different aspects. There's a lot of people that
50:20
pour their life into their work, whether that's educators and
50:23
they they go all in and maybe some other areas of life kind of
50:27
fall off into the ditch. You seem to have a very rich
50:32
life, whether that's in academic academia, whether that's in your
50:36
career as an anthropologist, even even as a mother and as a
50:41
wife. I'm curious, how have you kept
50:44
your family life so rich and you think you used the term at one
50:50
point that you had a you have a very joyful family, joyful life.
50:55
It's healthy. How do you do that?
50:58
How do you not even balance, but how do you make sure that
51:01
nothing falls under the line of healthy?
51:06
You know, there's a lot, I think there's a lot of people that
51:08
want their work to be really good, but then their family
51:11
drops off. They focus on family and work
51:14
drops off and, and a lot of people are trying to do the
51:16
balancing act. I don't think it's balancing,
51:18
it's counterbalancing. But for you, how have you been
51:21
able to experience such a rich life with your kids, with your
51:27
husband, with your grandkids? You know, I think that it
51:31
matters and I do think to listeners, what matters to you
51:36
because I, I could have easily cut off and just done my
51:41
academics or my business career, but it, it was, it really wasn't
51:47
sufficient. It was important and and
51:50
wonderful, but my kids were really important.
51:54
And my husband and I, we've been married 58 years and people say,
51:57
how do you do it? I said, we laugh a lot.
51:59
And so the two of us have a, a pretty and neither of us have
52:02
had what I'll call simple careers that go straight in
52:05
lines. But we've all had our, our, our
52:08
detours and our speed bumps. But at the end of the day, we
52:13
look at each other and we smile, we laugh.
52:15
And having dinner together, it's really a lot of fun.
52:18
My I, I, I, I don't think that I thought about this in a
52:23
different way. Like I was weird.
52:25
I just thought this is what matters and and what mattered.
52:29
Once you have children, they matter.
52:32
It isn't they don't ask to be here.
52:35
And it took me about a moment to realize, Oh my gosh, this is a
52:37
big responsibility. Their future is in my hand.
52:41
My job is to prepare them for a life with a happy life.
52:45
And I, I feel very fortunate that I've had a, a joyful 1.
52:49
And, and I guess part of it is having a mind that thinks of
52:52
happy as opposed to difficulty. People say, how do you stay so
52:57
positive? I said, I don't even think about
52:58
it. I just am, I'm, it's not like
53:01
I'm walking around saying how to stay positive.
53:04
You know, you, you, you can control your mind.
53:06
You can think bad or good, you can think happy or sad.
53:10
Just manage your mind and, and it will do your mind does
53:13
exactly what it thinks you want it to be and do what do you want
53:16
to do? And I want to be happy.
53:19
And then so I smile a lot. Nathan has a great smile.
53:23
It brings out the best in his interviewees.
53:27
And I'm laughing because we're, we're mimics, you know, we're
53:29
monkeys. And, and you smile, I smile.
53:31
So your question is a beautiful one, because I do think that you
53:35
can be happy. And, and people said, well, how
53:38
do you, how do you blend them? I said, I, I, how do you, how do
53:41
you have a balance? I said, I don't, I blended them.
53:44
You have no idea how many times my daughter's went to an event
53:46
for a business because it happened to be on my birthday.
53:49
And I said to whoever was suddenly you're holding that on
53:51
my birthday, I'm going to bring my daughters along.
53:54
And, and, and they, they came and, and it, it was not hard to
53:59
begin to see how to blend the life into one that was richer
54:03
for all of us and respectful for, for each of us.
54:06
And even now when when things are challenging, my kids and my
54:11
grandkids and my husband come first and and that's just fine
54:15
and, and I don't have to worry about anything.
54:22
It's funny because as I was doing research, there was the,
54:26
there was this phrase that came up that was hold tight and then
54:30
release. You know, when I, when you were
54:33
talking about this particular phrase, you were talking about
54:36
kids. But it really goes with all
54:38
aspects of life. When when it's in your job, hold
54:41
tight, release when it's time to let go with your kids, hold
54:45
tight, release when I let when when it's time to let go.
54:49
You know, I was just we, we were just having all of our stuff
54:53
moved for our investments and whatever in our our financial
54:57
advisor moved to a different firm.
54:59
And what's interesting is his his wife was like, so when you
55:05
die and when your wife dies, I don't know how to ask this.
55:08
That's everything. And what's interesting though,
55:13
is there's even that that aspect of even the spouse that you've
55:18
been with forever. There's a time to hold tight and
55:21
there's a time to release. I'm curious in this next stage
55:27
of life that you're stepping into, what do you feel like the
55:31
biggest thing is that you're having to release to relinquish
55:36
in terms of, you know, maybe it's an identity piece that
55:40
you've kind of held the man you've held on to for a long
55:43
time. And now it's time to maybe put
55:45
that aside, put it back in the box and allow something else to
55:48
kind of take center stage. What do you feel like in your
55:51
life currently? Is is kind of that next phase
55:55
where you're having to release and now you're starting to
55:58
embrace something? You know, time is the one thing
56:04
you become very aware of. There is only so much time.
56:09
And now I must say, my father went to 100, my grandmother went
56:11
to 97. So it's possible I have lots of
56:14
years to go, but I don't. Nobody does.
56:17
And you don't know what what the end point is.
56:21
And so I think that the illusion that you're going to live
56:24
forever, you need to let go of and begin to acknowledge the
56:28
fact that every day is a gift. Treat it like a special one.
56:33
What can you do with kindness for somebody else?
56:35
What can you do for yourself and those who matter to you?
56:39
Be very positive about it in the sense of, you know, send a thank
56:44
you note, begin to call and say, how are you doing?
56:47
Begin to worry less about things and time and, and energy.
56:53
And what we find is that we're beginning to be very careful
57:00
about how much we stuff into one day.
57:02
We often thought about our days as sausages.
57:04
How much can you stick through it?
57:06
And we did it. We did it.
57:07
You know, it didn't matter what it was.
57:09
We added one more thing to it. Maybe now we don't have to add
57:12
one more thing to it. And you know it, it's we love to
57:16
go bike riding, but we bought electric bikes and I made it
57:19
just a little bit easier and and I did stop riding a few years
57:25
ago. I had a bad accident and it was
57:27
time to say goodbye. But I I took up golf with a
57:30
passion and and now we play golf.
57:33
Will I ever be good at golf? No, but that doesn't matter.
57:37
But Mattresses said every day is this gift.
57:39
And I, I do think that I've let go worrying about what happens,
57:45
you know, a sort of trajectory way, a ladder to climb or
57:48
anything that's next. And just take each one as a
57:50
moment to be special and say thank you.
57:53
At the end of the day, I had a good day and it's OK.
57:58
That is so good. I cannot tell you how life
58:01
giving is what you just said. And for all of you guys
58:04
listening, go back and re listen to that.
58:06
On a day where you aren't feeling your best, where you
58:09
feel like maybe you failed, maybe you feel like the day just
58:12
went awry and it wasn't exactly perfect the way that you
58:15
envisioned it was supposed to be.
58:17
Go back and re listen to what Andy just was talking about
58:20
because this is so key in our lives that every single day,
58:24
like she said, is a gift. Every breath is a gift.
58:29
You know, it's, I'm not a huge like, you know, have your
58:32
gratitude time where you're going to spend 6 hours talking
58:35
about all the things that you're thankful for.
58:37
But I will say I have a small little gratitude journal that I
58:41
have and just in the morning I write a couple of things.
58:44
And for me, I just, I thank God for every small little thing,
58:49
whether that be the, the, that we have carpet in our house.
58:53
It's just the small minute things that you do not think
58:56
about. And what happens is as you train
58:59
your mind to look for those things using your reticular
59:03
activator, which if you guys have been listening to the
59:05
podcast for any length of time, I've talked about this, but it,
59:08
it activates your ability to see these things in your life.
59:12
If you want to see the positive things in your life, you have to
59:14
train your brain. You have to take a little bit of
59:17
time in the morning to set your intention for what it is that
59:20
your brain is looking for, and the rest of your life will truly
59:23
open up. You'll see some great things,
59:25
which is no surprise to me. The life that you've lived up
59:28
until this point has been so remarkable, and I'm excited to
59:33
see what comes next in this next chapter as you're pouring to
59:37
other people, helping other people.
59:40
I do have one more question for you.
59:42
But before I ask it for all of you listening, make sure you go
59:45
and check out some of Andy's work, whether you want to go
59:48
check out her podcast On the Brink, whether you want to go
59:51
grab one of her books On the Brink, Rethink Women Mean
59:55
Business, Rethink Retirement, which actually, you know,
59:58
honestly, that's the one I want to go listen to or I want to
1:00:01
read because there's something about this, this transition that
1:00:05
I think a lot of people are getting hung up on.
1:00:08
And I and I tend to be finding a lot of people that we're talking
1:00:11
about transitions. Within my business.
1:00:14
And so for all of you listening, make sure you go check out her
1:00:17
work, subscribe to the podcast that she has on the Brink.
1:00:21
And if you want to connect with her, all of her contact
1:00:23
information will be in the show notes below.
1:00:26
Andy, one of my favorite things to ask on the podcast is what
1:00:32
does it look like for you to be more than before?
1:00:35
You have had so much before and yet you have so much more ahead
1:00:42
of you. I'm curious, as you look into
1:00:44
the future, as you look into the days that that are coming ahead,
1:00:49
what does it look like for you to be more tomorrow than than
1:00:55
you were today? And we're starting off the day
1:00:57
right now, right? But what does it look like to be
1:01:00
more than before for you as you, as you live your life?
1:01:05
You know, Nathan, the one thing that we discovered as we looked
1:01:10
at this stage called retirement that my husband and I decided we
1:01:15
didn't want to enter was that it is full of challenges.
1:01:20
And people would say, I'm retired.
1:01:24
And I said, well, you belong to this tribe called retirement.
1:01:28
Do they have rituals? And do we gather?
1:01:30
I mean, what, what does a retirement person look like?
1:01:34
And and then I began to think through what value could I play
1:01:40
for people? And I started to listen to the
1:01:45
stories people were telling me. And after doing 60 interviews, I
1:01:49
said, there's a book here about helping people navigate this
1:01:54
next time in their their lives, I'll say their career.
1:01:59
People are raised when your kids, you say, what do you want
1:02:01
to be when you grow up? And then when you get into
1:02:04
college and if you go to college or you, you develop a skill,
1:02:08
what do you want to be now that you've grown up?
1:02:10
And then you be it or you be something, and then all of a
1:02:13
sudden comes that date at which you stop being that and enter a
1:02:19
whole new stage. The first time in your life
1:02:22
without structure, without anybody defining it for you.
1:02:27
And you think this is going to be extremely wonderful.
1:02:30
Like you said to your mother, I can do anything I want to the
1:02:33
freedom. And so the book is built around
1:02:36
the 10 myths because humans need some structure and to have all
1:02:42
this freedom is is sounds really wonderful.
1:02:46
But then you realize I don't know what to fill it with.
1:02:49
And then you fill it with 18 things and nothing happens or
1:02:51
gets done and you find you have no purpose.
1:02:53
There's no meaning. So as I began to think about
1:02:56
what I can do to help people through this next stage, I say,
1:03:00
well, I know a little bit more than they do now.
1:03:03
And I, I'm beginning to study how people are migrating or
1:03:08
navigating a transition of this formula.
1:03:11
You know, in anthropology, we'll call this a liminal stage
1:03:14
between what you were and what you've become.
1:03:17
And now for some people, I must tell you, there's some folks I
1:03:20
know who love to play pickleball, canasta, mahjong and
1:03:23
have lunch and they're perfectly happy.
1:03:26
And I say go for it. And there are people I know who
1:03:28
love to play golf and tennis and are happy doing that.
1:03:32
Wonderful. But then I met a lot of people
1:03:34
who are beginning to wonder about what is it, why do I
1:03:38
matter and what's my purpose? And then most importantly, I
1:03:43
thought I had all these friends in the office and then I left
1:03:46
the office and I have no friends.
1:03:49
This was most disturbing. One woman said to me, I've been
1:03:52
in this company for many years, 38 years.
1:03:55
I've been a wealth manager and I thought I had all these friends.
1:03:58
And then I left and they won't talk to me.
1:04:00
They don't have lunch with me. And on the other side of it,
1:04:02
somebody at a networking event not too long ago said, oh, my
1:04:06
friend retired and he keeps calling me to have lunch, but
1:04:09
he's free and I'm not. And I don't even know what to
1:04:12
talk to him about anymore. But we, we used to be good
1:04:15
friends when and then, you know, they're the guys who sold their
1:04:19
business and they had a two year, you know, management
1:04:22
project to help transition and they learned something.
1:04:25
The symbolism was great. They said first I had a nice
1:04:27
office and then a smaller office and then a little office like a
1:04:31
closet. And then I realized I had no
1:04:33
office and I had no purpose, identity or anything else from
1:04:37
me. If I can help people navigate
1:04:39
this next stage, call it whatever you like with better
1:04:43
clarity. I interviewed somebody in
1:04:46
podcast 2 weeks ago and she's in her book and ML Mac and was a
1:04:50
great editor and in a publishing world.
1:04:53
And after a year she became seriously depressed and she said
1:04:58
I didn't know why, but I had no purpose.
1:05:00
It wasn't that I I really was just burned out.
1:05:03
It stopped like it didn't like work.
1:05:05
It said, now I need something new, and I don't know how to
1:05:07
figure it out. And then I met someone at an
1:05:10
event and she said, oh, my gosh, my colleague, I'm a university
1:05:13
professor. My colleague retired in two
1:05:15
years. She committed suicide.
1:05:16
She had nothing to do. And a friend of mine who has a
1:05:19
great plan for his retirement and now gets up, goes to the
1:05:22
gym, comes home, has his coffee and nothing on his calendar.
1:05:25
And then one woman said, I have nothing on my calendar for the
1:05:28
rest of my life. What do I do?
1:05:29
And so all of a sudden I found a purpose, which is how do I help
1:05:34
people migrate through transition?
1:05:37
And so I did my first workshop and I'll be holding intensive 2
1:05:40
day workshops every quarter to help people really think through
1:05:45
who am I? How do I structure what's a a
1:05:48
beautiful day look like? You know, you can intentionally
1:05:52
create it, but you have to think about what does it, what you
1:05:55
know, what it isn't. You knew what it was, but now
1:05:58
looking ahead, what should it be?
1:06:00
And then, you know, how do I get what who, who matters to you?
1:06:04
Who should matter for you? You know, one woman with 18
1:06:08
things to do. I said, well, of all of those
1:06:10
who do you want to know you? You know, well, I want to focus
1:06:14
in the hospital where I'm helping with infants who are in
1:06:16
the NICU. I said, well, let's focus on
1:06:18
something like that, that you can build purpose.
1:06:22
And then last, who's my community?
1:06:24
One woman who was in my workshop was wonderful, successful
1:06:28
Japanese translator, travelled the world, raised her kids in
1:06:31
Japan, now back in Chicago and has no friends.
1:06:34
And I said, she said, it's lonely.
1:06:37
But another woman who has friends said, but you know,
1:06:41
they're not me. They weren't chief HR officers
1:06:45
And they they're there's a gap between who you were and the
1:06:50
people you knew and formed your day around.
1:06:52
And now how, how do I create a new one?
1:06:55
And and 111 guy said to me, I, I don't even know where to begin.
1:06:59
This worries me. There's 75,000,000 boomers and
1:07:03
they're all going to be wandering around and I hope they
1:07:05
find meaning. But if I can help them, that's
1:07:08
what I'm going to be doing between the podcast, my sub
1:07:10
stack newsletter, the books, and I can already see a series
1:07:14
coming out because couples have a whole different story.
1:07:17
And and I'm I'm going to a webinar on the military.
1:07:20
Think about it. Folks are retiring from the
1:07:23
military, trying to get jobs in the private sector, and now they
1:07:27
have to change their identity, their daily life and their
1:07:31
friends and their purpose, all of the things that are the
1:07:34
pillars of who they were and they wore with great, you know,
1:07:37
great success in their uniforms. So I think there's lots of
1:07:40
purpose to my purpose. I love that so much.
1:07:44
And what I, what I really take away from what you're talking
1:07:46
about is for all of you listening, no matter where you
1:07:50
are in life, you're in a stage. You might be in the liminal
1:07:54
stage, you may be in the no matter where you are, you're in
1:07:58
a stage right now and there's another stage coming.
1:08:01
You just have to define what it is that that stage is going to
1:08:03
look like. What do you want to see in your
1:08:05
life come to fruition? And in this isn't when we say
1:08:09
fruition. It's not like rubbing the magic
1:08:11
lamp, right? When we say fruition.
1:08:14
What is something that you could do that would bring purpose to
1:08:17
your life, whether that's volunteering or whether that's
1:08:19
going into your grandchildren or your children or fill in the
1:08:22
blank. Whatever stage you're in, you
1:08:24
have an opportunity to truly live out and to be present and
1:08:28
to be the person that your environment needs right now in
1:08:33
this moment. Andy, this has been such a
1:08:37
phenomenal conversation for all of you guys listening, make sure
1:08:40
you go back re listen to this multiple times.
1:08:42
There's so many gold Nuggets in this conversation.
1:08:46
Remember to like, subscribe and share this with a friend because
1:08:49
someone that you know needs to hear what Andy was talking about
1:08:52
today. So until next time, be more, see
1:08:55
more, and experience more than before.